Atheist Reasoning Concerning 12 Step Programs

rabbit
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Atheist Reasoning Concerning 12 Step Programs

Hi,

I was wondering how atheists here in RRS respond to the life changing effects produced by following 12 step programs which acknowledges a "Higher Power" that helps the addicted recover from their addiction.

I have seen atheist versions of 12 step programs, and they seem to be a cop out that still acknowledges some kind of universal power throughout mankind in order to help them overcome their addictions.

First question is, how do you account for the change in the person that helps that person get over their addiction?

Second question is, does your theist bashing undermine the good that 12 step programs do...and if so, why persist in the bashing?


The Patrician
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The power of human will can

The power of human will can be seen as a higher power - the ego overcoming the id and all that.

And no, we don't.  The AA in the UK is a non-religious organisation. 

Freedom of religious belief is an inalienable right. Stuffing that belief down other people's throats is not.


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rabbit wrote: Hi, I was

rabbit wrote:
Hi, I was wondering how atheists here in RRS respond to the life changing effects produced by following 12 step programs which acknowledges a "Higher Power" that helps the addicted recover from their addiction. I have seen atheist versions of 12 step programs, and they seem to be a cop out that still acknowledges some kind of universal power throughout mankind in order to help them overcome their addictions. First question is, how do you account for the change in the person that helps that person get over their addiction? Second question is, does your theist bashing undermine the good that 12 step programs do...and if so, why persist in the bashing?

Just because something may be comforting to believe in, that doesn't make it true.  The "bashing" is about promoting the truth. 


rabbit
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Quote:Bradshaw states

Quote:
The power of human will can be seen as a higher power - the ego overcoming the id and all that.

And no, we don't. The AA in the UK is a non-religious organisation.

Bradshaw states that all addictions are basically "will" addictions, as in the addicted are addicted to their own will and doing things by their will in a misinformed attempt to reconcile their pent up anger, sadness, ect. that is causing them to be addicted.

Basically, the human will is a bad thing in addiction because it is misleading, as in it will lead to the addiction again and again.

Also, even if they state they are non-religious, they are still "religious" in many senses. Do you believe Christians when they tell you their relationship with God is not religious?


The Patrician
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rabbit wrote: Bradshaw

rabbit wrote:
Bradshaw states that all addictions are basically "will" addictions, as in the addicted are addicted to their own will and doing things by their will in a misinformed attempt to reconcile their pent up anger, sadness, ect. that is causing them to be addicted. Basically, the human will is a bad thing in addiction because it is misleading, as in it will lead to the addiction again and again. Also, even if they state they are non-religious, they are still "religious" in many senses. Do you believe Christians when they tell you their relationship with God is not religious?

Ego and Id.  Please look 'em up. 

Freedom of religious belief is an inalienable right. Stuffing that belief down other people's throats is not.


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I think that attributing

I think that attributing success in such areas as those of addiction(to anything) to a god is self-defeating.

Once you say to yourself, 'I am powerless without gods help,' you've set up an expectation that you are worthless and useless as a single person.

I say(as an ex-smoker) that it is far more empowering to know that I was able to overcome something difficult using my intellect and will power. 


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rabbit wrote: Hi, I was

rabbit wrote:
Hi, I was wondering how atheists here in RRS respond to the life changing effects produced by following 12 step programs which acknowledges a "Higher Power" that helps the addicted recover from their addiction. I have seen atheist versions of 12 step programs, and they seem to be a cop out that still acknowledges some kind of universal power throughout mankind in order to help them overcome their addictions. First question is, how do you account for the change in the person that helps that person get over their addiction?

I give the credit where the credit is due, a person who has the strength to overcome their addictions. I've certainly never seen a god holding anyones hand as they fought through withdraw. In fact, many addicts recover from adddictions without enrolling in any program, religious or otherwise. Many recover through twelve step programs. Many recover through non-religious programs or hospitalization. Is it your belief that only twelve step programs lead to recovery? 

 

 

Quote:
Second question is, does your theist bashing undermine the good that 12 step programs do...and if so, why persist in the bashing?

I, truthfully, couldn't care less. To invoke some slly god concept as a means of recovery is ridiculous as it detracts from what should be a wonderous and empowering personal triumph of the human will that helps to teach the addict they are ultimately responsible for their own actions, beneficial or otherwise. God is not necessary for the rcovery process. In fact, without him, the process is much more meaningful.

“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins


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psychology/psychiatry is

psychology/psychiatry is known for it's share of controversity, from the over prescription of anti-depressants to misdiagnosis, but it can definitely be argued that many people have been helped by these fields. does criticism of psychology/psychiatry undermine the good it does, or does it isolate weak points and create a stronger area of study as a whole?

global warming has been the target of insane amounts of "bashing", but that's only served to inspire it's advocates to present stronger, more reliable evidence in support of their theories.

how do i account for the change in the person that helps that person get over their addiction?

any port in a storm. that's how.

how do you account for a relapse in addiction? failure of god? rejection by christ? or more truthfully, human weakness? 

 

www.derekneibarger.com http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=djneibarger "all postures of submission and surrender should be part of our prehistory." -christopher hitchens


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Actually, i`ve done a bit of

Actually, i`ve done a bit of research on the subject... guess what? AA doesn`t document their success rate like you`d think a responsible organization would. However, I did dig up one interesting fact from them; On average, only 10% of members stay with the program successfully for a full year... the exact same rate of success for people to quit cold turkey, without the program. No wonder they don`t document and report on themselves publically.

How dare you question God`s decision to make me atheist?


Born Alright th...
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A bit of light

[mod edit - duplicate post]


Born Alright th...
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A bit of light

soz for duplicate post, bad wireless.


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I suppose any program that

I suppose any program that makes a person tell them self they are weak and has them acknowledge things while going through withdraw or feeling sorry for them self is a good thing, right? I personally don't like the 12 steps program because of those two things. It teaches people they aren't good enough to fix their own problems.

I think the main reason it works is because of the support group which can be found without talk of a higher power and in other applications. The reason its so wide spread is because of AA and how it was able to grow. This would include churches having meetings,family and friends talking people into going, sponsors, and courts ordering the attendance.

Some might also argue that AA simply replaces one addiction for another... 


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rabbit wrote: First

rabbit wrote:
First question is, how do you account for the change in the person that helps that person get over their addiction?

I'm not sure any change has been shown.  I'd like to see some documented support for the efficacy of 12-step programs, and a better description of "change in the person" before responding further. 

rabbit wrote:
Second question is, does your theist bashing undermine the good that 12 step programs do...and if so, why persist in the bashing?

I don't believe in god, but I don't bash theists (or anyone for that manner).  I treat everyone with due respect.  On the other hand, your tone sounds pretty negative.  I could be wrong.

Responsibility: A detachable burden easily shifted to the shoulders of God, Fate, Fortune, Luck or one's neighbor. In the days of astrology it was customary to unload it upon a star. ~Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary, 1911


rabbit
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Ego and Id are hurt through

Ego and Id are hurt through past transgressions, I would think, and thus useless for restoration. Could be wrong, unlike you, I'm not a psychologist.


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rabbit wrote: Hi, I was

rabbit wrote:
Hi,

I was wondering how atheists here in RRS respond to the life changing effects produced by following 12 step programs which acknowledges a "Higher Power" that helps the addicted recover from their addiction.

You mean the one that requires you to believe in it before it can work in the first place? What a perfect example of circular reasoning.

rabbit wrote:
I have seen atheist versions of 12 step programs, and they seem to be a cop out that still acknowledges some kind of universal power throughout mankind in order to help them overcome their addictions.

I haven't seen any. A real atheist 12 step program would only be 5 steps, since 7 of them are completely pointless and valueless.

rabbit wrote:
First question is, how do you account for the change in the person that helps that person get over their addiction?

What change? Prove there's been a change before you suggest we should prove that it isn't related to religion.

rabbit wrote:
Second question is, does your theist bashing undermine the good that 12 step programs do...and if so, why persist in the bashing?

You seriously think a few drunkards outweigh wars and persecution? Think again.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.