One thing I really want

razorphreak
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One thing I really want

One thing I really want everyone to know, understand, and accept (atheists and theists) - not one person on this planet can prove God exists.  No possible proof can be offered to another individual to believe.  God makes himself known to every person on an individual basis.  Until you are called, you will remain in a state of disbelief, which is OK too because just as those in the time of Jesus that did not believe, there are those who were meant to believe and others who aren't.  Once we all accept this, understanding that I cannot convert you, and you cannot de-convert me, we'll all live much more happy, co-existing lives (and yes this is biblically supported).  It's from this point that I know, I realize, that nightline thing was a complete mistake.  I personally have had run-ins with WOTM-types and I don't agree with their approach.

Now as soon as we move on from that point, I'd be curious as to what kind of discussions we'd actually have.  From the RRS perspective, what would you discuss with a theist if you abandon the "prove God"  - the gnome challenge - question?

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


magilum
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razorphreak wrote: magilum

razorphreak wrote:

magilum wrote:
Razorphreak, I forgot what an obnoxious time waster you are. I'm going to snip the shit out of your posts where you veer off topic or use crap analogies.

Thanks for reminding me why I realize it's a waste of time trying to debate anything with you since you obviously have no interest in actually learning what I'm about. Hope you aren't like that with anyone else.

You didn't read my first post and you've completely ignored what I asked.  It's pointless debating the topic with you since you obviously aren't capable of doing so. 


What the fuck ever. You keep rattling your sabre like you're about to say something important, and YOU NEVER DO. You have never said anything the least bit interesting or thought provoking.


razorphreak
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magilum wrote: What the

magilum wrote:
What the fuck ever. You keep rattling your sabre like you're about to say something important, and YOU NEVER DO. You have never said anything the least bit interesting or thought provoking.

You just come off as very angry and bitter.  I've asked what I wanted to ask and for whatever reason that only you know, you ignored it.  Maybe after time you'll calm down; maybe you'll not feel bitter against those who don't think as you do.  I don't know what you were looking for when you decided to join in on this conversation but you didn't find it so sorry to disappoint.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote: magilum

razorphreak wrote:

magilum wrote:
What the fuck ever. You keep rattling your sabre like you're about to say something important, and YOU NEVER DO. You have never said anything the least bit interesting or thought provoking.

You just come off as very angry and bitter.  I've asked what I wanted to ask and for whatever reason that only you know, you ignored it.  Maybe after time you'll calm down; maybe you'll not feel bitter against those who don't think as you do.  I don't know what you were looking for when you decided to join in on this conversation but you didn't find it so sorry to disappoint.


You try to reduce my comments to an emotional reaction, yet you fail to refute them. All you do is make false analogies, like how being a theist is like being black, or how being gay is like being a reckless driver. Stop trying to change the subject when you're outside your comfort zone of rote scriptural quotation.
I admitted to misinterpreting your question, and proceeded to address it after you corrected me. Your concern, I repeat, is addressed by the normal discourse: most religious conversations in the world don't involve asking for proof. They respect the basis of beliefs, no matter how asinine, only arguing within the conceptual model of that religion. There is nothing novel or interesting in that, so I don't know why you think introducing that style here would be productive. 


simple theist
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razorphreak wrote: One

razorphreak wrote:

One thing I really want everyone to know, understand, and accept (atheists and theists) - not one person on this planet can prove God exists. No possible proof can be offered to another individual to believe. God makes himself known to every person on an individual basis. Until you are called, you will remain in a state of disbelief

So why doesn't God hurry up and call Sapient, Kelly, Rook, etc. Does this mean I'm free to sin until God calls me? (Just curious) What happens to people GOd doesn't call?

 

Quote:

, which is OK too because just as those in the time of Jesus that did not believe, there are those who were meant to believe and others who aren't. Once we all accept this, understanding that I cannot convert you,

Then why did Jesus say to take the gospel into all the world? Wouldn't it be a waste of time if it didn't convert anyone? Couldn't God simply reveal the truth to them when he called them? 

 

Quote:
 

and you cannot de-convert me, we'll all live much more happy, co-existing lives (and yes this is biblically supported).

Can anyone be de-converted or is Hitler still in good standing with God?

My appologies if I come off knocking your beliefs, I am simply curious. 


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razorphreak wrote: Romans

razorphreak wrote:

Romans 2 - people who do not know God will be judged by their actions in their life.

How many good works do I have to do to get into Heaven? Without God how am I suppose to know what is good and what is not? 


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What your post just said

What your post just said strikes me as a bit odd. Are you a Christian or a follower of a different faith? I'll answer but this really wasn't the thread for that.

simple theist wrote:
So why doesn't God hurry up and call Sapient, Kelly, Rook, etc. Does this mean I'm free to sin until God calls me? (Just curious) What happens to people GOd doesn't call?

I'm not God so how should I know why this person is called and that person is not. We know by scripture that God can and does create anything and anyone for the purpose as he sees fit.

As to sinning, first let me make clear that what I am about to write is according to my beliefs as a Christian.  Romans 6 covers it pretty well; if you are called by God and you follow the faith given to you, you "die" to sin...that is your lifestyle is bound to change.  I can only speak for myself in that I know being called by God made me rethink my behavior and I can only describe it as "painful" if I repeat what I used to do (such as swearing).

simple theist wrote:
Then why did Jesus say to take the gospel into all the world? Wouldn't it be a waste of time if it didn't convert anyone? Couldn't God simply reveal the truth to them when he called them?

And who says that the holy spirit doesn't work through people? Only God can reveal himself to that person and lead that person to the belief in Jesus....if it be his will to do so.

simple theist wrote:
Can anyone be de-converted or is Hitler still in good standing with God?

I don't know that. God knows the hearts of men, including who Hitler was. So if that person is doing the will of God, who am I to judge? Can anyone lose their faith? To those who doubt God, yes.

simple theist wrote:
How many good works do I have to do to get into Heaven? Without God how am I suppose to know what is good and what is not?

Again I am not the judge of salvation or condemnation and because I do not know who you are or what you believe, I'm not sure I understand what your question represents.

Those who do not know God in accordance to scripture are judged according to the natural law that every person knows. It's not about works but rather who they are as a person that God looks at. As an analogy that Jesus spoke about, no good tree can produce bad fruit and no bad tree and produce good fruit. Because I know I do not have it in my power to save or condem a person knowing what is "good" or "bad" is not my responsibility to the spirit (the laws of man let us know in accordance to our lives on Earth). This is why I can't say Hitler is in hell for what he did because I don't know if what he did was in accordance to God's will.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


razorphreak
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magilum wrote: You try to

magilum wrote:
You try to reduce my comments to an emotional reaction, yet you fail to refute them. All you do is make false analogies, like how being a theist is like being black, or how being gay is like being a reckless driver. Stop trying to change the subject when you're outside your comfort zone of rote scriptural quotation.

In accordance to how many who post on these forums react to any theist.  How can I refute anything you say when my impression to your responses is apathy on your side to anything I say?  It gives me the feeling that anything more and I'm wasting my time. 

magilum wrote:
I admitted to misinterpreting your question, and proceeded to address it after you corrected me. Your concern, I repeat, is addressed by the normal discourse: most religious conversations in the world don't involve asking for proof. They respect the basis of beliefs, no matter how asinine, only arguing within the conceptual model of that religion. There is nothing novel or interesting in that, so I don't know why you think introducing that style here would be productive.

magilum that "style" is what comes off by many posts here.  Why ask me a question about the bible and then refute the bible as fiction?  Why not just ask "why do you believe in the bible since it is fiction because..."??  If you don't believe that the book is the inspired word of God then why ask me to explain any of it?  Why is there a thread about homosexuality?  About suicide? About faith vs. works?  Why was the blasphemy challenge done if you don't believe in the HS to begin with?  

Saying it's not "novel" or "interesting" almost implies that you mean not contraversial.  Is that what you mean?  Are you saying that you participate on this forum because you want to rille up people?  Is it is a joke to you to have these discussions?

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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I am a Christian and don't

I am a Christian and don't believe in election. I think anyone is free to come to God. Saying some people are called and others aren't..well to me that means God doesn't care that there are some people that sin.


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TO: Any 'professing atheist'

MOD Edit: Post Removed

Spamming and Calling out other members is not allowed. 


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TO: Any 'professing atheist'

MOD Edit: Post Removed

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TO: Any 'professing atheist'

Mod edit -  removed spam


Tilberian
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ajay333 wrote:


Mod edit: Please don't feed the trolls. Eye-wink 

Augh! Troll alert!

ajay the troll

Your little core statement has been refuted over and over, Ajay. That's why you are now a proud denizen of Trollville. Back under the bridge with you!

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
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I think that its very base

I think that its very base of people to resort to swearing and drum-beating in what is supposed to be an intellectual discussion.

As for ajay333's assertion that a true atheist doesn't exist. I wholly do not agree, no matter what title you give them. There are people that simply do not believe in this existence of any supernatural being. Saying there are no true Atheists is like saying there are no true Christians because Christians don't understand the greatness of lord Ganesh/ Allah/ Buddah/ Zeus, but they choose to deny them anyways. Its a logic stunt to say that. I believe your assertion is inaccurate.


razorphreak
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simple theist wrote: I am a

simple theist wrote:
I am a Christian and don't believe in election. I think anyone is free to come to God. Saying some people are called and others aren't..well to me that means God doesn't care that there are some people that sin.

Even though that's directly from the bible? Even though Jesus stated that only God will make Jesus known to others? (John 15:16, Matthew 11:27).  Even though Jesus himself spoke of the elect at the end of times (Mark 13:14-23)? I'm really curious how your belief came about.

Oh, as to sin, God's will is first and foremost.  As he stated in Romans 9, God can harden whomever he wishes (it gives the example of pharaoh) so while man can consider it evil, if he did God's will who are we to say that God's will was not done (that is, if pharaoh did God's will, which pleases God, could you say he was condemned?).

Perhaps this discussion belongs better in PM or another thread? 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote: Perhaps

razorphreak wrote:

Perhaps this discussion belongs better in PM or another thread?

I was going to suggest the same.


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razorphreak wrote: In

razorphreak wrote:
In accordance to how many who post on these forums react to any theist.  How can I refute anything you say when my impression to your responses is apathy on your side to anything I say?  It gives me the feeling that anything more and I'm wasting my time.

 

My statement was on the norm of religious discourse bending over backwards to accommodate religious concepts without calling into question their validity. That's what we're talking about. Did we have some kind of theological discussion in between posts, about the nature of subtle matter or the mechanics of celestial crystal spheres, that I somehow forgot about?

 

Your original post was about wanting atheists to give up on asking for proof, and move on to humoring you like everyone else.

 

razorphreak wrote:
magilum that "style" is what comes off by many posts here.  Why ask me a question about the bible and then refute the bible as fiction?  Why not just ask "why do you believe in the bible since it is fiction because..."??  If you don't believe that the book is the inspired word of God then why ask me to explain any of it?  Why is there a thread about homosexuality?  About suicide? About faith vs. works?  Why was the blasphemy challenge done if you don't believe in the HS to begin with?

 

Seriously? You're asking whether participants in the Blasphemy Challenge were believers? Anyway...

 

Whether individual atheists choose to humor you, or otherwise engage you on your preferred level, is their concern, but as I'd said before, you can't request a free pass for all your assumptions. Like I said, that's what the real world does for you folks. If here, every time you make some bizarre statement about the world, someone asks you to back it up with reason, or at least explicit scriptural support, so be it.

 

razorphreak wrote:
Saying it's not "novel" or "interesting" almost implies that you mean not contraversial.  Is that what you mean?  Are you saying that you participate on this forum because you want to rille up people?  Is it is a joke to you to have these discussions?

 

Don't rephrase my statements. I'm bored with repeating myself, and I'm certainly not going to dignify your straw-man.


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simple theist

simple theist wrote:
razorphreak wrote:

Perhaps this discussion belongs better in PM or another thread?

I was going to suggest the same.

"Dude, not in front of the atheists... we all believe in the "same thing," remember?"


razorphreak
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magilum wrote:

magilum wrote:
My statement was on the norm of religious discourse bending over backwards to accommodate religious concepts without calling into question their validity. That's what we're talking about. Did we have some kind of theological discussion in between posts, about the nature of subtle matter or the mechanics of celestial crystal spheres, that I somehow forgot about?

Your original post was about wanting atheists to give up on asking for proof, and move on to humoring you like everyone else.

I guess then you don't understand the difference between threads perhaps? Discussion? Perhaps you just aren't willing to discuss one point over the other? If you start a thread as to why the bible is fiction that's one thing and frankly you want to call into question go for it. You start a thread asking why do I (as a Christian) believe xyz is immoral, you are asking me to validate or justify myself according to my beliefs; wheither you follow them or not is not at issue since your question would sound like it's asking me what I believe, not why I believe. There is a difference and it's not asking anyone to humor me as you claim.  My original post is asking for that separation.

magilum wrote:
Seriously? You're asking whether participants in the Blasphemy Challenge were believers? Anyway...

How did you come to that? Why do I always get the feeling that you rewrite my posts in your thread to come up with ridiculous statements like that.

magilum wrote:
Whether individual atheists choose to humor you, or otherwise engage you on your preferred level, is their concern, but as I'd said before, you can't request a free pass for all your assumptions. Like I said, that's what the real world does for you folks. If here, every time you make some bizarre statement about the world, someone asks you to back it up with reason, or at least explicit scriptural support, so be it.

Don't rephrase my statements. I'm bored with repeating myself, and I'm certainly not going to dignify your straw-man.

I don't want anyone to humor me, just knock off threadjacking as someone called it.

Oh, I didn't restate anything; what I did was ask you questions. I didn't assume your meaning behind your statements so I ASKED "is that what you mean". I notice you didn't answer them. At least when I use the bible, I justify my statements according to my beliefs - fictional or not they are justified by the source I gather my opinions from.

magilum wrote:
"Dude, not in front of the atheists... we all believe in the "same thing," remember?"

Umm it's called different subject, different conversation. I think you might need to understand that better...

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak

razorphreak wrote:
[condescension snipped] If you start a thread as to why the bible is fiction that's one thing and frankly you want to call into question go for it. You start a thread asking why do I (as a Christian) believe xyz is immoral, you are asking me to validate or justify myself according to my beliefs; wheither you follow them or not is not at issue since your question would sound like it's asking me what I believe, not why I believe. There is a difference and it's not asking anyone to humor me as you claim.  My original post is asking for that separation.

 

Yawn. I got it the first fifty times, buddy. Bite down on my seven hundred thousand replies to that request and stop pretending it's going to sound better the next time you say it.

 

razorphreak wrote:
How did you come to that? Why do I always get the feeling that you rewrite my posts in your thread to come up with ridiculous statements like that.

 

Tu quoque. I can't help but notice how much of my replies disappear or go without address, or how you reply to the abstract rather than myself much of the time. The first time I replied to one of your  threads, you acted like we'd been in a long debate already. You're nuts.

 

razorphreak wrote:
I don't want anyone to humor me, just knock off threadjacking as someone called it.

 

I agree about the threadjacking. But seriously, this site isn't about getting into scriptural circle jerks. Consider it a privilege that you get to spout that trash.

 

razorphreak wrote:
Oh, I didn't restate anything; what I did was ask you questions. I didn't assume your meaning behind your statements so I ASKED "is that what you mean". I notice you didn't answer them. At least when I use the bible, I justify my statements according to my beliefs - fictional or not they are justified by the source I gather my opinions from.

 

They were beneath answering. I've not only said what I meant to say, I've said it one hundred and thirty million times in this thread. And no, you don't justify statements like calling Christianity a "way of faith." You repeatedly ignored pariahjane and glamourkat in the homosexuality thread.

 

[snipped]


razorphreak
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magilum wrote: Yawn. I got

magilum wrote:
Yawn. I got it the first fifty times, buddy. Bite down on my seven hundred thousand replies to that request and stop pretending it's going to sound better the next time you say it.

Sorry magilum...you left me with little choice but to keep repeating myself since you left me with the impression that while you read what I wrote, you seemingly didn't understand me.  But hey now that I know you got it I won't say it again...

magilum wrote:
Tu quoque. I can't help but notice how much of my replies disappear or go without address, or how you reply to the abstract rather than myself much of the time. The first time I replied to one of your threads, you acted like we'd been in a long debate already. You're nuts.

Part of what sucks when you debate these things online...on a forum. When you jumped into the thread, my assumption was you had read the rest of the thread and understood my position.  My fault for assuming.

magilum wrote:
I agree about the threadjacking. But seriously, this site isn't about getting into scriptural circle jerks. Consider it a privilege that you get to spout that trash.

Trust me I won't lose any sleep if I was given the "asshat".  If I was, then I know where open minded and understanding went. 

magilum wrote:
They were beneath answering. I've not only said what I meant to say, I've said it one hundred and thirty million times in this thread. And no, you don't justify statements like calling Christianity a "way of faith." You repeatedly ignored pariahjane and glamourkat in the homosexuality thread.

Well humor me since I'm TRYING not to make any assumptions over your posts.  There's an old saying...no such thing as a stupid question just a stupid answer.  If I don't know I'm going to ask, even if I sound stupid to you.  I want to know and I'd rather hear it from you than assume what you might think or say.

As to why I ignore them or you, I have my reasons.  I responded to Kat personally instead on the thread because of threadjacking from others.  I got tired of going around the issue and decided to bow out since I felt my position was well stated.  The difference between that thread and this one is while I completely understand your position, I don't agree with it.  I'm asking you questions so I can even further understand why your position is so on this forum when, what I found interesting, you seem to say it's different in "real" conversation.  If I didn't answer something and you really want it answered, I'll go back...that I promise you.  

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire