Why we worry about RRS and the negative worldview

Lux
Theist
Posts: 204
Joined: 2007-05-14
User is offlineOffline
Why we worry about RRS and the negative worldview

I read a post on here stating that Chrisitans are worried...This is true, but not for the reasons you may think. Since atheism strips any sense of ultimate purpose, there will be mental consequences to their new-found anti-worldview. People tend to be happier and generally healthier when they have God in thier lives, this is a proven fact supported by studies. If fact, those who don't have God tend to commit SUICIDE for often then those who have a relationship with God. So when an atheist claims that we Chrsitians are worried about RRS and atheism, this is true. This is a link to a scientific study. There are several but I'll only post this one.

 

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/161/12/2303

"Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning..." -CS Lewis


deludedgod
Rational VIP!ScientistDeluded God
deludedgod's picture
Posts: 3221
Joined: 2007-01-28
User is offlineOffline
Are you familiar with the

Are you familiar with the term Argument from consequences?

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism


Lux
Theist
Posts: 204
Joined: 2007-05-14
User is offlineOffline
doesn't make it more or

doesn't make it more or lesss true. I'm not trying to be PC, I'm simply pointing out a few problems.

"Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning..." -CS Lewis


deludedgod
Rational VIP!ScientistDeluded God
deludedgod's picture
Posts: 3221
Joined: 2007-01-28
User is offlineOffline
doesn't make it more or

doesn't make it more or lesss true.

Precisely. The consequences of a worldview don't make it more or less true.

 I'm not trying to be PC

And precisely where did I imply anything to do with political correctness?

I'm simply pointing out a few problems.

And what problem would that be?

Presumably this is an American based study, because in my experience, there is no correlation between religioisity and mental health. I have had the fortune to live in the most secular nations on earth. Japan, Hong Kong, Norway, Canada. These nations have far higher life expectancies than the overwhelmingly religious US, and very little religiosity. 

 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism


Lux
Theist
Posts: 204
Joined: 2007-05-14
User is offlineOffline
Japan has one of the highest

Japan has one of the highest suicide rated in the world. I believe this to be due to their secular world-view. Norway also has a very large suicide rate compared to the US, especially in the gay community. France has a high suicide rate, though I expect this to change somewhat because of a change in leadership. The new President is a devout Catholic, who will surely introduce religion back into the mainstream. If you want sources, I can provide them.

"Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning..." -CS Lewis


Lux
Theist
Posts: 204
Joined: 2007-05-14
User is offlineOffline

Jacob Cordingley
SuperfanBronze Member
Jacob Cordingley's picture
Posts: 1484
Joined: 2007-03-18
User is offlineOffline
Being an atheist allows us

Being an atheist allows us to create our own meanings. I am a happy, young man, I feel free of any restrictions to my thought within the capacity of the human brain. I would not be happy if I was religious, I know this now, my brain is far too active to find it ultimately satisfying, I have a brain that is constantly questioning, and that is a good thing. If I were to cling to faith I would be denying the most important thing to me from operating fully. It would ultimately make me unhappy. If I didn't have my own meaning to life but adopted the meaning of some cosmic zombie I would be unhappy. My meaning is my intellectual purpose, a purpose I created for myself. I want to study, to write books. You want to cling to a theistic doctrine. You have every right to if that's what makes you happy.


Lux
Theist
Posts: 204
Joined: 2007-05-14
User is offlineOffline
Let us not fool ourselves

Let us not fool ourselves into thinking that atheism= intelligence. Many theists are intellectually sound. While this may be true for you, it doens't mean it true for everyone else. Letting go of God doesn't mean that you can gain more knowledge. It just means that you refuse to see the evidence outside of what science can tell us about the world. This, IMO, isn't a complete worldview.

"Atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning..." -CS Lewis


deludedgod
Rational VIP!ScientistDeluded God
deludedgod's picture
Posts: 3221
Joined: 2007-01-28
User is offlineOffline
Letting go of God doesn't

Letting go of God doesn't mean that you can gain more knowledge. It just means that you refuse to see the evidence outside of what science can tell us about the world.

Care to present this evidence.

I wasn't referring to suicide rate. I was referring to life expectancy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

and HDI

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index

and Intelligence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence#Beliefs_among_scientists

and Literacy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate

ad infinitum.

Quote: "Japan has one of the highest suicide rates in the world. I believe this to be due to secular world-view".

Really? Care to present evidence?

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism


Malice
Malice's picture
Posts: 105
Joined: 2007-03-10
User is offlineOffline
acutal since i have left

acutal since i have left the church i ahve become a better, happier person.

 the chuch made me consider sucide due to the fact that iw as gay and their constent teaching of how that is an abomiation really doesnt help a kid  have a happy life out look.

 

 

i hoesntly thing that its a load of bull claiming less religous people are more likly to commit suicide and i knwo you ahve a link and i also think its a load of bull Sticking out tongue

 


Maragon
Maragon's picture
Posts: 351
Joined: 2007-04-01
User is offlineOffline
Lux wrote: I read a post

Lux wrote:

I read a post on here stating that Chrisitans are worried...This is true, but not for the reasons you may think. Since atheism strips any sense of ultimate purpose, there will be mental consequences to their new-found anti-worldview. People tend to be happier and generally healthier when they have God in thier lives, this is a proven fact supported by studies. If fact, those who don't have God tend to commit SUICIDE for often then those who have a relationship with God. So when an atheist claims that we Chrsitians are worried about RRS and atheism, this is true. This is a link to a scientific study. There are several but I'll only post this one.

 

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/161/12/2303

 

 

Oh, did you abandon your last thread after you couldn't refute any of the logial questions presented to you?

I wonder how many replies this one will last? 


The Patrician
The Patrician's picture
Posts: 474
Joined: 2007-05-09
User is offlineOffline
He's just trolling.  Trust

He's just trolling.  Trust me on this.

 


wavefreak
Theist
wavefreak's picture
Posts: 1825
Joined: 2007-05-10
User is offlineOffline
deludedgod

deludedgod wrote:

Presumably this is an American based study, because in my experience, there is no correlation between religioisity and mental health. I have had the fortune to live in the most secular nations on earth. Japan, Hong Kong, Norway, Canada. These nations have far higher life expectancies than the overwhelmingly religious US, and very little religiosity.

 

You assert that there is no correlation between religiousity and rmental health and then offer longevity as supporting evidence?  How are they connected? 

 

It is interesting that the religiously freaky Unitied States is so far down the list. Also interesting is the top 10 is dominated by former Soviet States. 

 

If religion is the opiate of the masses then give them opium. (Joke!) 


Brian37
atheistSuperfan
Brian37's picture
Posts: 13541
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Lux wrote: I read a post

Lux wrote:

I read a post on here stating that Chrisitans are worried...This is true, but not for the reasons you may think. Since atheism strips any sense of ultimate purpose, there will be mental consequences to their new-found anti-worldview. People tend to be happier and generally healthier when they have God in thier lives, this is a proven fact supported by studies. If fact, those who don't have God tend to commit SUICIDE for often then those who have a relationship with God. So when an atheist claims that we Chrsitians are worried about RRS and atheism, this is true. This is a link to a scientific study. There are several but I'll only post this one.

 

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/161/12/2303

Quote:
Since atheism strips any sense of ultimate purpose, there will be mental consequences to their new-found anti-worldview. People tend to be happier and generally healthier when they have God in thier lives, this is a proven fact supported by studies.

 You fail to mention that any given majority in any given society is going to be happeir. It is a simple matter of resources, both ecomic and emotional.

You claim atheists are unhappy? DUH DIPPY! Just like blacks where when a majority of whites called them subhuman. 

Atheists are unhappy, that is true. Because people like you think we are undeserving of being part of society. You paint us as evil monsters out to wreak havoc on society and then act suprised when we get upset.

If you want to fix our unhappyness, dont sell us your myth. You can start by stop treating us like we are leppers or lost confused children. This is a condesending post and is nothing more than an pathetic attempt to make us look bad.

"Atheists are unhappy"

THANK YOU CAPTAIN OBVIOUS. I'll wire this into CNN.

Here are some positives that you'll ingore.

We value life becaus it is the only one we get.

We love education because it gives us a broader scope of the world we live in.

We value human rights and are capable of empathy.

We dont seek to dictate, but are damned sure not going to bow to threats people make on behalf of any fictional sky daddy.

We are postive that with the right attitude we can solve issues such as famine, desease and war.

We are happy when people seek to understand us insted of letting stereotypes rule their brains.

We find happyness in a variety of things and family and co workers and friends, just like any other group. We just dont assing it to magical fictional beings by any name.

So you are correct. We are unhappy, not with ourselves though. But condesending idiots like you who want to paint us as mentally ill and depressed.

Maybe if theists would stop trying to make us out to be kitten eaters and spend some time actually debating us and lose the idiotic stereotypes, like the original post here, maybe you'd get a smile out of us every once and while.

But if you think we are going to back off people like you because you you are dead wrong. We are happiest when we dont take crap from theists and we arnt going to do it with you either.

You have a choice. You can stop making assumptions about us, or you can continue your delusion that we are lost in our lives and continue to be called an idiot. I hope you are not an idiot, so if you are not, please prove it by obstaining from faulty sources that make stupid assumptions without presenting the full story.

For the same reason gays and blacks have problems. For the same reason Christians in Iran have problems. For the same reason Muslims have problems in Isreal, we cant stand the assumptions you make about us.

Maybe if humanity would stop going out of its way to demonize outsiders. Maybe if they'd stop obeying and act like independant self sufficiant and responsable beings, maybe if you'd aim some introspection at yourself and understand how you affect others, maybe atheists wouldnt be so harsh in criticising you.

Yes, we are unhappy. But not with ourselves. We are unhappy because most of us live in a country where the majority would rather us dissapear. So pardon me if I speak out about people saying they dont want me around.

You mistake most the people here being weak . We dont need a magical crutch. We are adults and the idea of needing an invisable camera in the sky with a disimbodied voice telling us how high to jump is rediculous to us.

Now, insted of trying to paint us as mental patients wich is absurd, why dont you prove the claims you make about the deity you claim is real. You are wasting our time with your pathetic attempt to pant us as needing help.

We value debate, not condesending "poor lost atheist" bullshit. So, show us some spine if you have one and prove the claims you make. But if you think we are going to put up with you calling us mental patients you've got another thing comming.

Do you get it? If you dont get it, dont let the door hit your ass on the way out. If you do get it, then you are welcome to make a case for your deity. Either way, atheists are not going anywhere, so get over it and get used to it. DEAL WITH IT! 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


deludedgod
Rational VIP!ScientistDeluded God
deludedgod's picture
Posts: 3221
Joined: 2007-01-28
User is offlineOffline
You assert that there is no

You assert that there is no correlation between religiousity and rmental health and then offer longevity as supporting evidence?

Oops. Wrong word. I meant to say causality. 

Also interesting is the top 10 is dominated by former Soviet States.

No suprise there. After glasnost and petroisika failed spectactularly, the whole region sank to even lower levels than USSR days. Now Russian men died in their 50s and the gap between woman and men in lifespan is absurdly high. The whole region is a total mess. Really, I just cannot imagine a way in which the Russians could have fucked up more, unless they started nuclear war.

 

If religion is the opiate of the masses then give them opium. (Joke!)

LOL Indeed

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

Books about atheism


gregfl
Posts: 170
Joined: 2006-04-29
User is offlineOffline
Lux wrote:

Lux wrote:
Japan has one of the highest suicide rated in the world. I believe this to be due to their secular world-view. Norway also has a very large suicide rate compared to the US, especially in the gay community. France has a high suicide rate, though I expect this to change somewhat because of a change in leadership. The new President is a devout Catholic, who will surely introduce religion back into the mainstream. If you want sources, I can provide them.

 

Hey Lux...watch me play the same game!

 

Japan has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. I Believe this is due to their [sic] secular worldview.

 

See how unconvincing it is?

 

Or how about this


The united states has a high crime rate. I believe this is due to its religoius world view.

 

Do you find any truth value in my statements? No? How do you think we feel about yours?

 

You are making biased statements without supporting it in any way other than saying "I believe".

 

Now, what are some of the problems with your statements? First, and most easy..is this statement from Wiki's page on suicide...

 

It is probable that the incidence of suicide is widely under-reported due to both religious and social pressures, and possibly completely unreported in some areas.

 

Thats right. Areas with high levels of religion under report suicide. Is that a surprise?

 

Next, lets look at CAUSES of suicide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_and_methodology_of_suicide#High-risk_groups

Causes

"There is no single cause for which suicide can be directly attributed. Environmental factors, childhood upbringing, and mental illness each play a large role. Sociologists today consider external circumstances, such as a traumatic event, as a trigger instead of an actual independent cause. Suicides are more likely to occur during periods of socioeconomic, family and individual crisis. Most people with suicidal tendencies tend to suffer from some mental illness such as depression, bipolar disorder, or some degree of anxiety disorder. These diagnosable mental disorders are associated with more than 90% of suicide victims. As a result, many researchers study the causes of depression to understand the causes of suicide.[13]

Many theories have been developed to explain the causes of suicide. Psychiatric theories emphasize mental illness. Psychological theories emphasise personality and poor coping skills, while sociological theories stress the influence of social and environmental pressures."

 

Notice ATHEISM isn't one of them? If you would explore further, you would notice that the problem with gay's and suicides in adults tends to be with gays who are not 'out', in other words, living a lie, and in gay teenagers who, in case you don't know, experience rejection from their families and society in general at much higher rates than the general population. These two factors, familial rejection and societal rejection, are known causes of suicide.

 

If you could demonstrate that atheism has a higher instance of suicide, the logical conclusion would be that it is because they are subject to rejection from society at large and their families in particular.

 

So what? We already know that.

 

Finally, in a list of suicide rates by country, you find this caution..

 

This list should be used with caution. Little data is available documenting suicide rates in Africa, and the Middle East. Even in countries where cause-of-death data is collected systematically, differing societal attitudes toward suicide may impact the recorded figures (e.g., misreporting a suicide as an accidental death out of deference for the bereaved).

 

But using this list, we can make all kinds of "I BELIEVE" statements, such as you did.

 

Here is one.

 

"The united states has a higher rate of suicide than Kuwait. I Believe this is due to the muslim calming influence in Kuwait. One should throw off their christian religion and adopt Islam.

 

You getting the problem with your arguement yet?

 

 

I would suggest you do some actual research before you drop your "I BELIEVE" bombs on this forum.

 

 

Finally, to put a nail in the coffin of your argument, you seem to want to pick on Japan. Lets have a look at actual stats for this country. (from Wiki and Adherents.com)

 

Japan comes in 10th highest on the list of suicide rates. Japan has approx a 65% agnostic/atheist population. 9 other countries have higher suicide rates.

 

Of those, we have stats on 7 of them. ALL OF THEM HAVE SUBSTANTIALLY HIGHER RATES OF RELIGIOUSITY.

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html

 

 

Using your methodology, what conclusion would you draw from this?

 

One last stat...The united states comes in 45th out of the 99 countries listed. That mean 54 countries have lower suicide rates then the US on this list. The unites states lists 9% agnostic/atheist rate.

Of the countries with lower suicide rates then the US, ALMOST ALL OF THEM HAVE HIGHER AGNOSTIC/ATHEIST RATES.

 

Thailand has one of the lowest rates of suicide and they are 95% buddhist. Buddhism does not denote a belief in a supernatural god.

 

Again, using your assumptions, your argument is beaten to a pulp.

 

 

 

 

 

 


mrjonno
Posts: 726
Joined: 2007-02-26
User is offlineOffline
Those suicide stats can be

Those suicide stats can be used for just about any justificiation you want (like the bible)

 But I shall have ago the former soviet states are some of the most religiouis in the world (they are are also poverty ridden and suffering from a lack of place in the world)

UK apparently has a far lower suicide rate than the US and the % of people who go to any regular religious ceremonies is <2%. Through interestly enough North Ireland suicide stats are lower than the main land they just shoot each other there (well used to)

 

Realistically I suspect suicide rates are related to the break down of families, poverty, work pressure , health care and a general attiude to mental illness


HC Grindon
High Level DonorModerator
Posts: 198
Joined: 2007-05-11
User is offlineOffline
My first roomate's father,

My first roomate's father, an evangelist, blew his f'n brains out because he had an affair and had "failed god".

Non-believers do not have an "anti-worldview", so quit applying negative terms the already negatively manipulated label "Atheist".

I have never been happier or healthier since I escaped the shackles of religion.  Religion is nothing but a veil of blissfully delusional false-happyness.  Add that to your stats.

-HCG


aiia
Superfan
aiia's picture
Posts: 1923
Joined: 2006-09-12
User is offlineOffline
Lux wrote: Japan has one of

Lux wrote:
Japan has one of the highest suicide rated in the world. I believe this to be due to their secular world-view. Norway also has a very large suicide rate compared to the US, especially in the gay community. France has a high suicide rate, though I expect this to change somewhat because of a change in leadership. The new President is a devout Catholic, who will surely introduce religion back into the mainstream. If you want sources, I can provide them.
I see you've did a half-assed job on your 'research'. Japan is the 10th highest rate of suicide. But the first 9 countries with the highest suicide rate are Catholic. Don't you look stupid now.

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


rexlunae
rexlunae's picture
Posts: 378
Joined: 2007-01-07
User is offlineOffline
I'm willing to concede that

I'm willing to concede that atheists may have higher rates of suicide, despite the fact that this appears to be a fairly small study. I really don't know, but it may be possible. But deludedgod is quite right: The consequences of being an atheist have no bearing on the truth of atheism. To me, the truth is important, and I would rather risk being depressed occasionally than deliberately delude myself. And if there are negative consequences of being an atheist, I want to look for ways to prevent them, not hide in a lie.

Furthermore, the study you posted researches religion in general, not belief in god.

Since you pointed out Japan as an example of a place with a high suicide rate, I would point out that Japan traditionally has had a sort of suicide culture. There are many cases in which a person was expected to commit suicide in the relatively recent past, and some of that cultural heritage may still be influencing people today.

It's only the fairy tales they believe.


Free Thinking
Free Thinking's picture
Posts: 128
Joined: 2007-05-11
User is offlineOffline
omg, Brian37? *dies

omg, Brian37? *dies again!*

Man, I am having a great "wisdom" and "insight" kind of day here and in rl. All you atheists have contributed to this jubilence with your thoughts. Thank you for taking the time to share them.  I really appreciate it.

Judge: god, you have been accused of existence! What do you have to say for yourself?

god: I am innocent until proven guilty, your honour!