Kirk and Ray Debate

Echo
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Kirk and Ray Debate

Hello and peace to you from me. I hope my post comes across as gentle and respectful as it is sometimes hard to convey gentleness and respect and a soft sad heart online. My heart is sad and I would like to have a peaceful and loving conversation with you.

I watched the online debate. I see that you both are passionate about what you believe. I admire passion, I admire your passion, but I disagree with all your views respectfully.

The emphasis of your view, or the point that stood out to me the most seems to be on "the fear of punishment"
Brian said that both him and Kelly were raised Christian. I have to question in what church? I suspect a Church with "false teaching"
False teaching has the potential to harm or destroy faith. God has warned us about this in his word.

Could we discuss your "fear of punishment" I wonder?

Can I ask you both, do you have children, mothers, sisters? Or how about you yourself Kelly...

If a pedophile or a rapist is caught trying to get at your children, your mother, your sister, or you....Would you call the police so that they could warn him? Or should he be free to do as he pleases?

Do you think that if people commit these crimes that their should be punishment ?

Isaiah 1:18 " Come now, let us REASON together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.

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Echo wrote: Quote: Echo

Echo wrote:
Quote:
Echo wrote: Quote: Why did God create evil? God is not the author of evil. So the Bible, specifically Isaiah 45:11 is wrong?
The Bible is never wrong, our interpretation of the Bible is what is wrong. Isaiah 45:11 ""This is what the LORD says— the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker: Concerning things to come, do you question me about my children, or give me orders about the work of my hands?" We were discussing if God was the author of evil. This verse has nothing to do with that.

Echo, just so you're aware, there are very few (if any) non-theist members of this forum that think the bible is anything but a book.

However, we do have bible scholars so if you want to debate  scripture, please continue.  

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Quote: We were discussing

Quote:
We were discussing if God was the author of evil.

 

How about 2 Kings 6:33? or Isaiah 45:7? or Amos 3:6?


Iruka Naminori
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Echo wrote: The Bible is

Echo wrote:
The Bible is never wrong, our interpretation of the Bible is what is wrong.

I'm sorry, but this seems awfully convenient.  If you don't like something in the bible, you can just explain it away with the correct "interpretation."

 

Echo wrote:
Isaiah 45:11 ""This is what the LORD says— the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker: Concerning things to come, do you question me about my children, or give me orders about the work of my hands?" We were discussing if God was the author of evil. This verse has nothing to do with that.

Wrong verses.

What about this one:

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

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Echo wrote: The Bible is

Echo wrote:
The Bible is never wrong, our interpretation of the Bible is what is wrong.

yes, the bible is wrong, and you are wrong. there are parts of the bible that are wrong that can't be taken any other way than what is written(look under the "you cant win game" under the biblical errancy section in these forums, for the judas error, and look at my post in it)


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I agree with those argueing

I agree with those argueing against christianity. As far as.. it incites fear into it's followers. I have been told by every christian that I know just about, whether they are fundy's or not. "If you don't believe in Jesus, you are going to hell". And I assume that is in the bible as well at some point. My question to you is this. I live a good life, I'm only 16, but so far I've lived it to the best of my abilities. I hold morals highly above all else. I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't have sex. I help those I can help. I do what I can do to make other people feel better if they are down. And I hurt for all the bad in the world and all the suffering. I feel bad for people who are going through hard times because I am incapable of helping them even though what they are going through is not my fault. I try to do right in all situations, I do what is right over what is fun. I probably have better morals than anyone I know in my community. And I plan on only doing good in the world as I get older. I imagine there is nothing that I could do that would be so bad as to warrant my going to hell. Are you saying that even though I am all of this, I will go to hell for simply not believing. I ask you, what god would justly send me to hell, with the good person that I am, simply for not believing in him. I believe a petty, self-concious childish god would.

"Why would God send his only son to die an agonizing death to redeem an insignificant bit of carbon?"-Victor J. Stenger.


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  Rev0lver wrote: Echo

 

Rev0lver wrote:

Echo wrote:
The Bible is never wrong, our interpretation of the Bible is what is wrong.

yes, the bible is wrong, and you are wrong. there are parts of the bible that are wrong that can't be taken any other way than what is written(look under the "you cant win game" under the biblical errancy section in these forums, for the judas error, and look at my post in it)

 And, my friend Echo. I ask you, what who's right is it to decide our interpretation of the bible is wrong. Who gives you the right to decide what is a misinterpretation in the bible and what is a correct one? What makes your interpretation right and others wrong?

"Why would God send his only son to die an agonizing death to redeem an insignificant bit of carbon?"-Victor J. Stenger.


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Great they finally labled

Great they finally labled that "Just me" guy.

 

Thank his Noodly Lordship


Iruka Naminori
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Dave_G wrote: Great they

Dave_G wrote:

Great they finally labled that "Just me" guy.

 

Thank his Noodly Lordship

That would be me...acting under the guidance of His Noodly Lordship. Eye-wink 

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MattShizzle wrote: You

MattShizzle wrote:
You might want to post that link - not all of us can see signatures.

Sorry. here's a thread I made about it

Echo wrote:
I watched the clip about "disproving Christianity in three words." All of the fellows arguments are based on his misinterpretation of scripture.
Really now? Where did I go wrong?

 

Echo wrote:
Quote:
Okay, why don't you give us the "correct" interpretation of scripture?
Okay, Start a new thread and then pick and post one point and we will begin there.
here's a thread I made about it Go there. I'll let you pick any point you want.


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Its terribly interesting to

Its terribly interesting to see survival of the fittest in a social context. The strong or strong in number devour any "competition" unfazed. They don't even play with their 'prey', it is devoured whole. This is of course enhanced by the mob effect. I commend the theists boldness (a virture often misplaced w/ outspoken). Somebody should give him a break for at least trying and break the natural order.


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Echo wrote: Kelly  And so

Echo wrote:
Kelly  And so you can understand and relate to the anger and justice of God.

No, I can't. First of all, saying that I would have difficulty restraining myself doesn't not mean that I would advocate that course of action. I am talking about my emotional response to my children being hurt--not the ethics of vengance. Also, even if I killed somebody, it is not the same as eternal torture and I would still be held accountable for my actions through the legal system, unlike your fairy tale god. Not to mention that killing or molesting one of my children isn't quite the same as picking up sticks on the sabbath.

Quote:
I agree with you. Children in a relationship with their parents should not be scared into compliance. God does not scare us into compliance either. The Bible teaches that fear is not the motivator in our relationship with God. Instead, Love is the motivator, much like it is with you and your children. Those who serve God out of fear have not come to understand the love of God. Those who serve God out of fear serve a God their own mind has made up. 1 John 4:18 “There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love” However, if your children are in danger of losing there life for some reason and they stubbornly refuse to heed your advice to avoid that, then out of love for them would you instill the fear of death in them in order to keep them from continually and stubbornly resisting you?

This is a false analogy--imaginary gods versus real people. And you can twist your individual bible verses to support any claim or any belief just like people have done for all time. 

Quote:
  And so you can relate to God then. God also bases his relationship with us on mutual respect and love.

Really? It's obvious that you've never read the Bible in its entirety. 

Quote:
And so it is with God. His requests have their basis in his children’s immediate safety and necessity also.

So, what part of my immediate safety is put in jeopardy by blasphemy or worshipping other gods or no god at all? 

 


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Echo wrote:In Eden, right

Echo wrote:
In Eden, right after Adam and Eve sinned, God promised them a savior from their sin. So God did something about it right away.

Right away? No he didn't.

Quote:

 movie example, it doesn’t work in the case with God. Things are not fatalistically determined as in a movie. The bible teaches clearly that prayer changes the course of history and that God actually changes his mind in response to the prayers of his children. So the fact that God knows all things in advance does not mean things are fatalistically determined. Think of it like this. My child loves potato chips. Therefore if I have any in the house, I can be sure he is going to find them and eat them. I can know in advance that he will eat those chips. But I am not the one who made the decision for him to go ahead and eat them. So to sum up, just because God knows what we will do, that doesn’t mean he is responsible for what we do. We ourselves are responsible.

Actually, my movie example does work.

And if prayer changes God's mind, does that mean that the all-knowing god didn't know he was going to change his mind in the first place?

Doesn't make sense.


Echo
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Quote: How about 2 Kings

Quote:
How about 2 Kings 6:33? or Isaiah 45:7? or Amos 3:6?

The OT is littered with stories of how God uses evil for his good purposes. He doesn't create evil but he can still use it for good.
While the KJV says God created evil. The NIV says God creates disaster. If you look the Hebrew word up in the concordance you will learn that the word "evil" can mean adversity, affliction, calamity, displeasure, distress, grief.

While God isn't the author of evil. He can create situations in which evil is used for good.

Isaiah 1:18 " Come now, let us REASON together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.

Member of WELS


Echo
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Quote: yes, the bible is

Quote:
yes, the bible is wrong, and you are wrong. there are parts of the bible that are wrong that can't be taken any other way than what is written(look under the "you cant win game" under the biblical errancy section in these forums, for the judas error, and look at my post in it)

Judas bought the field indirectly through the priests. He bought it indirectly because it was the reward for his wickedness. The feild he bought was intended to bury the dead and his reward was his death. Even though he gave away the money, he still recieved his reward.
As for the two accounts of his death.
Notice in Acts that Judas "FELL" headlong and his intestines spilled out. The point being he fell. He fell from the place he hanged himself perhaps due to decay and his intestines spilled out.
The very fact that the two accounts differ is significant. How many true eye witness accounts are identical? Usually none because people pick up on different things or see things from a different vantage point or see things at different times. The account in Mathew is a witnessing of the intitial hanging, the account in Acts is a witnessing of a later time after the body "FELL" .

Isaiah 1:18 " Come now, let us REASON together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.

Member of WELS


Echo
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Quote:No, I can't. First

Quote:
No, I can't. First of all, saying that I would have difficulty restraining myself doesn't not mean that I would advocate that course of action. I am talking about my emotional response to my children being hurt--not the ethics of vengance. Also, even if I killed somebody, it is not the same as eternal torture and I would still be held accountable for my actions through the legal system, unlike your fairy tale god. Not to mention that killing or molesting one of my children isn't quite the same as picking up sticks on the sabbath.

I think God has an emotional response.

I am not trying to sound in any way mean or judgmental here, okay?...
The very fact that you have difficulty restraining yourself from killing a person for such a crime means that you do indeed advocate that course of action otherwise you wouldn't feel that way at all. It is what comes out of our mouths, that resides in our hearts. What I mean is that if you were the sole authority on the consequences you would perhaps then carry it out rather than now as it stands, you have the police and the laws being the thing that presently restrains you.

About "eternal torture" as you call it. I havn't studied Hell much because I know I am not going there but it seems to me, and maybe I am wrong about this, that the torture is
self-infilicted. The torture comes from within ourselves and is not thrust upon us. It seems to me that God merely seperates the believers from the unbelievers. I kind of see in this way: If I were to go to Hell because of my unbelief, I would then realize just how stupid I was not to listen to believers and hear what they have to say and how stupid I had been for closing my mind. I would weep and gnash my teeth at my own blindness, stubborness, pride and stupidity.
(I used to be an unbeliever so looking back from where I am now, this is what I know I would have done)

The Bible claims to be the word of a God of Love. I used to see God just as you see him now. But I kept looking, kept reading the Bible. Kept listening to Christians and comparing what they said to the Bible. I truly was blind and I truly didn't understand God. But now I see. You don't yet know God, you have a very faulty picture of him and it is the faulty picture of God that you really are rejecting. The picture of God you have in your mind is not the God I know and love.

Quote:
And you can twist your individual bible verses to support any claim or any belief just like people have done for all time.

1 John 4:18 “There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love”

Read it again. If you feel I have twisted the verse, tell me for yourself what you think it says.

The one who "Fears" is not made perfect in love.
If you have fear, you do not yet understand the love of God or the God of love.

Quote:
Quote:

And so you can relate to God then. God also bases his relationship with us on mutual respect and love.

Really? It's obvious that you've never read the Bible in its entirety.

No, it's not that. It takes time to get to know God. Over time these things become very clear. Respectfully, I can tell just from the things you say that you have not yet understood the God in the Bible.

Quote:
So, what part of my immediate safety is put in jeopardy by blasphemy or worshipping other gods or no god at all?

Blasphemy results from unbelief. We are saved by believing. If you worship other Gods, you won't be worshipping the one true God. Only the one true God can save you. Jesus himself said: "I am the way, the truth, the life, no one comes to the father but by me"

If we believe we get to heaven by our good works, we follow a false God. All the religions of the world believe this with the acception of true Christianity. God's judgement will reveall all our good works to be filthy rags. (Isaiah 64:6)

Hebrews 11:6 "And without faith it is impossible to please God"

Isaiah 1:18 " Come now, let us REASON together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.

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Echo
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Quote:Echo wrote:In Eden,

Quote:
Echo wrote:

In Eden, right after Adam and Eve sinned, God promised them a savior from their sin. So God did something about it right away.

American athiest wrote:

Right away? No he didn't.

Genesis 3:15 " And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

Her offspring for which God is reffering is Jesus, Jesus is our Savior from sin.

"Satan struck his heel"... is figurative for the death of Jesus
"he will crush your head"...is figurative for the victory won as a result of the ressurection.

Isaiah 1:18 " Come now, let us REASON together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.

Member of WELS


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Echo

Echo wrote: 

Quote:
Blasphemy results from unbelief.

You have a gift for the obvious.  Also a concept that is not foreign to you as you commit blasphemy to hundreds of gods I could name.

Quote:
We are saved by believing.

This is an overly simplistic statement that omits such things as ...blind obedience, cowering in fear of god and smiting the unbelievers.  The "savior" mythological concept is one of the most worn out and trodden myths in human history.  You should read about it. 

Quote:
If you worship other Gods, you won't be worshipping the one true God. Only the one true God can save you.

If we could measure the historical damage that the phrase "the one true god" has done in drops of blood, we could probably fill the Pacific.

But since it's Sunday, I'll bite..."the one true god" is whomever your particular culture/parent tells you it is.  Kill anyone who questions this.  My god is pizza on thin wheat crust w/ Pepperoni, Sausage and pineapple.  I've lost alot of dates over this one, but i'm assured a place in that sweet pizzeria in the sky !

Quote:
If we believe we get to heaven by our good works, we follow a false God. All the religions of the world believe this with the acception of true Christianity.

They're all false gods as they were all made by men.  This includes yours.  If you really think christianity is the only exception re: "good works", it's time to educate  yourself.  "Acception" implies acceptance, but you'll find exception fits better w/ the exclusionary nature of christianity.

The proselytizing is a bit tiresome.  Shall I quote the koran to you ?  Free E-meter reading ?

{edited for clarity}

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George Orwell


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Echo wrote: Genesis 3:15 "

Echo wrote:
Genesis 3:15 " And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." Her offspring for which God is reffering is Jesus, Jesus is our Savior from sin. "Satan struck his heel"... is figurative for the death of Jesus "he will crush your head"...is figurative for the victory won as a result of the ressurection.

Did god really have send Jesus in the future? Why couldn't god just forgive Adam and Eve right there on the spot?

And once again, it goes back to where god knows what's going to happen before it happens.


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Back on topic, the debate

Back on topic, the debate got mentioned on the 5/12 Skeptics Guide to the Universe podcast. They were talking about Ray Comfort's dumbass ripoff of Randi's million dollar challenge (though Ray COmfort only offers 10,000.) They said "by the way, Ray Comfort and his lapdog Kirk Cameron got their ass handed to them the other day by the Rational Response Squad." They spent a while after that making fun of them.

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MattShizzle wrote: Back on

MattShizzle wrote:
Back on topic, the debate got mentioned on the 5/12 Skeptics Guide to the Universe podcast. They were talking about Ray Comfort's dumbass ripoff of Randi's million dollar challenge (though Ray COmfort only offers 10,000.) They said "by the way, Ray Comfort and his lapdog Kirk Cameron got their ass handed to them the other day by the Rational Response Squad." They spent a while after that making fun of them.

Is that show available for download on the site? If so, is it the one on the front page right here?


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Yeah, that's it - the 5/9

Yeah, that's it - the 5/9 one (that's the actual date - available for download date was 5/12.) Listening to it right now - that part was fairly early.

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Jacob Cordingley
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Echo wrote: The OT is

Echo wrote:
The OT is littered with stories of how God uses evil for his good purposes. 

Is that what you call it?

I must say, you make me laugh, cry and perhaps also partake in the gut-wrenching activity of projectile vomitting.

As for punishment. I am not a retributivist, I do not believe in an eye for an eye. I think that people who harm others should be sent to prison so that the public can be protected, perhaps punishment has a place but I really think that rehabilitation is the most important thing to do to prisoners, if we focus on that and not on punishment we can make society better, healthier, safer. Locking someone away for a set amount of time and then releasing them won't necessarily change them, in fact it might make them more bitter, more twisted. If there is a focus on rehabilitation then when a prisoner is released we can be more sure he is reformed. 

I don't think anyone should rot in a cell for their whole life, never mind the eternity that many Christians think even people like me (atheists) should be tortured in hell. I'm a good person, I have never harmed anyone, I might drink, occasionally smoke, partake in pre-marital sex... but tell me, who does that harm? The only reason that fundies think we all should is because we think differently from them. We are not bound by some omnipotent psychopath in the sky, we are free, and yet we are capable of a much more refined morality based on what actually does harm and not what some guys thousands of years ago thought. And for that many atheists, especially in your country are persecuted. That is evil, not us!


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Atheists to become Theists

All non believers will one day become believers.

Some in this life, & unfortuneatley some in the next.  It's just a matter of choice of timing.  You think if the father of all lies will find himself on bended knee you won't? Wrong! Well, hope to see you in Heaven someday.  Make the choice to live on with God.

 

Amen


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adamnite wrote: All non

adamnite wrote:

All non believers will one day become believers.

Some in this life, & unfortuneatley some in the next. It's just a matter of choice of timing. You think if the father of all lies will find himself on bended knee you won't? Wrong! Well, hope to see you in Heaven someday. Make the choice to live on with God.

 

Amen

WTF? 


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Um, yeah, thanks Adamnite.

Um, yeah, thanks Adamnite. Undecided


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I don't think some. Homey

I don't think some. Homey don't play that. The Bible is bullshit.


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Echo wrote: Quote: Okay,

Echo wrote:
Quote:
Okay, why don't you give us the "correct" interpretation of scripture?
Okay, Start a new thread and then pick and post one point and we will begin there.

No, you are the one claiming that the bible is not wrong.  You are the one claiming that the bible has been misrepresented and that you know the correct interpretation.

You should start this thread with the "correct" interpretation of a point that you think is misrepresented.  You were challeneged with giving us the correct interpretation because you said you knew it.

I don't have any particular points of dispute. Start a new thread yourself and start from the beginning if you want to.  We all want to hear the "correct" interpretation, please.

Judge: god, you have been accused of existence! What do you have to say for yourself?

god: I am innocent until proven guilty, your honour!


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adamnite wrote: All non

adamnite wrote:

All non believers will one day become believers.

Some in this life, & unfortuneatley some in the next. It's just a matter of choice of timing. You think if the father of all lies will find himself on bended knee you won't? Wrong! Well, hope to see you in Heaven someday. Make the choice to live on with God.

 

Amen

 

All believers will eventually commit millions of logical fallacies and feel the need to post them on our message boards.

 

The only adverse consequences of faith come from having faith in the first place.

Faith is something that was taught to you. It is not inherant, nor essential to human survival. 


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Echo wrote:Quote:yes,

Echo wrote:
Quote:
yes, the bible is wrong, and you are wrong. there are parts of the bible that are wrong that can't be taken any other way than what is written(look under the "you cant win game" under the biblical errancy section in these forums, for the judas error, and look at my post in it)
Judas bought the field indirectly through the priests. He bought it indirectly because it was the reward for his wickedness. The feild he bought was intended to bury the dead and his reward was his death. Even though he gave away the money, he still recieved his reward. As for the two accounts of his death. Notice in Acts that Judas "FELL" headlong and his intestines spilled out. The point being he fell. He fell from the place he hanged himself perhaps due to decay and his intestines spilled out. The very fact that the two accounts differ is significant. How many true eye witness accounts are identical? Usually none because people pick up on different things or see things from a different vantage point or see things at different times. The account in Mathew is a witnessing of the intitial hanging, the account in Acts is a witnessing of a later time after the body "FELL" .

No, you are getting it wrong. The account in acts states:

-Judas bought a field with the money

-He fell there headlong, his body burst open and his intestines spilled out

-because of this, the people of jerusalem called it the field of blood

The account in matthew states:

-Judas threw the money into the temple, and left to go hang himself.

-the priests picked up the money, and bought a field where foreigners were to be buried

 -because of this, it was called the field of blood

The difference is, in the acts account judas bought a field. in the matthew account judas threw away the money and the priests bought a field. in the acts account there is no mention of him hanging himself, there is a mention of him falling, and how can you fall headlong if you're dead? the field was bought after he hung himself, there is no mention of him coincidentally hanging himself in the said field. the acts account states that because of judas's death in the field, it was called the field of blood. the matthew account states that it is called the field of blood because that is the place where they bury foreigners.


Echo
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Quote:This is an overly

Quote:
This is an overly simplistic statement that omits such things as ...blind obedience, cowering in fear of god and smiting the unbelievers.

Who cowers in fear of God? Who smites unbelievers? Perception is everything but perceptions can be entirely wrong. How do we get a wrong perception of God? The Bible tells us:

2 Corinthians 4:4 "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

And the God of this age is Satan.

False faith, false religion is this:

Two parents come to the orphanage to adopt a child. They bring the child home and say: "Billy, If you do this, this and this, then we will finalize the adoption." So Billy cowers in fear because the this, this and this is very difficult! Now everything that Billy does is self serving. He attempts to obey for reasons other than out of love for these people. So in the end, he fails and the parents return him to the orphanage because Billy didn't live up to thier expectations.

True faith, true religion is this:

Two parents come to the orphanage to adopt a Child. Out of all the children in the orphanage, they choose the rebellious one, the one with a bad temper, the one who behaves defiantley and they sit him down. They tell him that they have already adopted him, he is now there child and they are going to love him unconditionally. There is no trial period like in the first scenario. It is through their unconditional love, that Billy begins to soften, he becomes less and less defiant and he loses his temper less and less. Over time, Billy turns out to be a very nice kid. It was the unconditional love and forgiveness and acceptance of Billy, just as he, that changed Billy. Billy changed because he was loved and because he was loved by his parents, he couldn't help but love them in return.

The first scenario is the life of unbeliever's who have an incorrect perception of God and also it represents all religion outside Christianity.

For example: Muslims believe one must earn those adoption papers by being good. It is a loveless God.
Mormons, Jehovah's witnesses and even Catholic's, because of their false teachings also believe this.

But the God of the truth revealls himself as the second scenario does.

Isaiah 1:18 " Come now, let us REASON together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.

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Jacob Cordingley
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adamnite wrote: All non

adamnite wrote:

All non believers will one day become believers.

Some in this life, & unfortuneatley some in the next.  It's just a matter of choice of timing.  You think if the father of all lies will find himself on bended knee you won't? Wrong! Well, hope to see you in Heaven someday.  Make the choice to live on with God.

Amen

Hahahahaha! Man this guy is the greatest comedian ever! Ha. I think my sides are literally splitting, it's quite painful actually. Ouch.

Mate, in all seriousness, until I die I don't actually care. if I go to hell for being a peace-loving, kind-hearted guy, who would never hurt a fly (they aren't sentient you can't hurt them), well then maybe this God guy ain't so omnibenevolent after all, maybe I wouldn't want to live with a guy who is willing to send me to hell just because his ego is hurt that I didn't believe in him, that's just a bit petty really. So until I die and my body goes into the ground and is eaten by worms and gives nutrition to more life forms, then I actually don't care. If I go to hell, so be it, I would be proven wrong. If I go to Valhalla, cool. If I haunt the earth, well I could have a bit of fun. If I go to Hades, well most people go to Hades except heroes. If I go to the Halls of Foul-Tasting, undercooked pasta, then maybe there is an FSM after all.

Please, pray for my wretched black soul by all means, just don't expect me to bat an eye-lid. If you are right (which I doubt) then it's God's fault I don't believe, after all he created me and my neurones, my neurones that refuse to form the exact electrical impulses which would make possible the memes which would enable me to believe in God. If you are right, then I am a faulty product of God's great factory. Of course, if I'm right, then we all evolved and I have a more developed brain which enables me to see past dogmatic memes, the intentional stance, and logically flawed arguments. If that is the case, which I reckon it probably is, then here is what I have to say:

Go and eat some pasta moron!


Echo
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Quote:Hahahahaha! Man this

Quote:
Hahahahaha! Man this guy is the greatest comedian ever! Ha. I think my sides are literally splitting, it's quite painful actually. Ouch.

Mate, in all seriousness, until I die I don't actually care. if I go to hell for being a peace-loving, kind-hearted guy, who would never hurt a fly (they aren't sentient you can't hurt them), well then maybe this God guy ain't so omnibenevolent after all, maybe I wouldn't want to live with a guy who is willing to send me to hell just because his ego is hurt that I didn't believe in him, that's just a bit petty really. So until I die and my body goes into the ground and is eaten by worms and gives nutrition to more life forms, then I actually don't care. If I go to hell, so be it, I would be proven wrong. If I go to Valhalla, cool. If I haunt the earth, well I could have a bit of fun. If I go to Hades, well most people go to Hades except heroes. If I go to the Halls of Foul-Tasting, undercooked pasta, then maybe there is an FSM after all.

Please, pray for my wretched black soul by all means, just don't expect me to bat an eye-lid. If you are right (which I doubt) then it's God's fault I don't believe, after all he created me and my neurones, my neurones that refuse to form the exact electrical impulses which would make possible the memes which would enable me to believe in God. If you are right, then I am a faulty product of God's great factory. Of course, if I'm right, then we all evolved and I have a more developed brain which enables me to see past dogmatic memes, the intentional stance, and logically flawed arguments. If that is the case, which I reckon it probably is, then here is what I have to say:

Go and eat some pasta moron!

You call yourself a peace loving, kind hearted guy and in the same paragraph you ridicule someone and call them a moron.
You have just sinned my friend. You have done something that isn't kind hearted and peace loving.

What does God require of us if we want to get to heaven by being good?

Mathew 5:48 "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

How far short have you just fallen?:

James 2:10 "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."

You have just broken the entire set of commandments.

Therefore it is impossible for you to get yourself into heaven by being a peace loving, kind hearted guy.

Is there another way? Yes, Jesus died on the cross to pay the penalty of all your sins. He has given you eternal life as a free gift. Believe it and it is yours. Then, once you know heaven is your home, God's gift to you, then go and love others as God has loved you. Forgiving others as God has forgiven you.

Hugs my friend.

Isaiah 1:18 " Come now, let us REASON together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.

Member of WELS


Rev0lver
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that's what she said.

that's what she said.(i'm sorry, i couldn't resist)


FreeThoughtMake...
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lol what? Ok well if God

lol what? Ok well if God created his or her angels and Satan was one of them and that fallen angel is the force behind all that is bad and evil well God created that so directly or indirectly God would be the author of "evil". If God is in all things then well.....you get where i'm going with that.

Quote:
Religion at BEST - is like a lift in your shoe. If you need it for a while, and it makes you walk straight and feel better - fine. But you don't need it forever, or you can become permanently disabled.

---George Carlin---


Echo
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Quote: Ok well if God

Quote:
Ok well if God created his or her angels and Satan was one of them and that fallen angel is the force behind all that is bad and evil well God created that so directly or indirectly God would be the author of "evil". If God is in all things then well.....you get where i'm going with that.

God created Satan good and with free will. Satan himself chose rebellion. God does not create robots. Robots do not have the ability to love.

Isaiah 1:18 " Come now, let us REASON together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.

Member of WELS


Maragon
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Echo wrote: Quote: Ok well

Echo wrote:
Quote:
Ok well if God created his or her angels and Satan was one of them and that fallen angel is the force behind all that is bad and evil well God created that so directly or indirectly God would be the author of "evil". If God is in all things then well.....you get where i'm going with that.
God created Satan good and with free will. Satan himself chose rebellion. God does not create robots. Robots do not have the ability to love.

 

 

 

WHAT!?

 

Robots? 


Mattness
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Echo wrote: Quote: Ok well

Echo wrote:
Quote:
Ok well if God created his or her angels and Satan was one of them and that fallen angel is the force behind all that is bad and evil well God created that so directly or indirectly God would be the author of "evil". If God is in all things then well.....you get where i'm going with that.
God created Satan good and with free will. Satan himself chose rebellion. God does not create robots. Robots do not have the ability to love.

Actually Satan having free-will has nothing to do with it. God still created him, thus created evil. Concluding anything else would be a logical fallacy.

Anyway this whole free-will argument is really stupid when you think about it (you probably are too indoctrinated to realise it, but I'll try anyway).

If what the bible says is true (I don't believe any of it), god didn't have any concerns about forcing us to believe in him in the past. Or would you consider a giant flood that wipes out almost all life on earth as "leaving us free will to believe in him or not"? Jesus  forced people to believe in god by performing miracles. You don't have much of a choice when you see someone raising people from the dead and walking on water, do you?

 

 

Science is organized knowledge. Wisdom is organized life. - Immanuel Kant


Echo
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Quote:Actually Satan

Quote:
Actually Satan having free-will has nothing to do with it. God still created him, thus created evil. Concluding anything else would be a logical fallacy

That's incorrect. If you have children and they choose to do drugs, did you create the drugs?

Quote:
Or would you consider a giant flood that wipes out almost all life on earth as "leaving us free will to believe in him or not"?
When God judges in this way. He is just in doing so. When sin reaches it's full measure and is unharnessed as it was in the time just before the flood, judgment comes. But God is very patient. Read the Bible to see just how much patience he has and how wicked the people are. And also look for his mercy.

Quote:
Jesus forced people to believe in god by performing miracles. You don't have much of a choice when you see someone raising people from the dead and walking on water, do you?

Jesus didn't force anyone. He tried to draw people with love.

He said in Mathew 23:37 " "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."

So Jesus doesn't force, he longs to gather. Even though he did miracles, raised the dead and walked on water, the verse says, they were not willing. And even the miracles etc did not force them to believe.

Isaiah 1:18 " Come now, let us REASON together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.

Member of WELS


Roisin Dubh
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Maragon wrote: Echo

Maragon wrote:

Echo wrote:
Quote:
Ok well if God created his or her angels and Satan was one of them and that fallen angel is the force behind all that is bad and evil well God created that so directly or indirectly God would be the author of "evil". If God is in all things then well.....you get where i'm going with that.
God created Satan good and with free will. Satan himself chose rebellion. God does not create robots. Robots do not have the ability to love.

 

 

 

WHAT!?

 

Robots?

 

 

"The powerful have always created false images of the weak."


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That's incorrect. If you

That's incorrect. If you have children and they choose to do drugs, did you create the drugs?

if you knew he would do all these bad things ahead of time, would you create that child?

 


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Echo wrote: That's

Echo wrote:

That's incorrect. If you have children and they choose to do drugs, did you create the drugs?

The analogy doesn't fit. Closer would be: If you made meth in your living room and your 3 year old ate it and OD'ed would you be responsible? The answer is yes.

Echo wrote:
When God judges in this way. He is just in doing so. When sin reaches it's full measure and is unharnessed as it was in the time just before the flood, judgment comes. But God is very patient. Read the Bible to see just how much patience he has and how wicked the people are. And also look for his mercy.

This sounds very similar to my mother's rationalization right after her partner just beat the shit out of one of us. 'I/You brought it on myself/yourself.' or 'She really loves you, just look past the anger.'

"When you hit your thumb with a hammer it's nice to be able to blaspheme. It takes a special kind of atheist to jump up and down shout, 'Oh, random fluctuations-in-the-space-time-continuum!'"-Terry Pratchett


Echo
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Quote: The analogy doesn't

Quote:
The analogy doesn't fit. Closer would be: If you made meth in your living room and your 3 year old ate it and OD'ed would you be responsible? The answer is yes.

This situation doesn't work because God did not create evil. He created Satan good. The evil Satan did, God did not create. I suppose you could say Satan created it because he is the one who rebelled against God.

Quote:
This sounds very similar to my mother's rationalization right after her partner just beat the shit out of one of us. 'I/You brought it on myself/yourself.' or 'She really loves you, just look past the anger.'

So sorry to hear that this happened to you. I assure you, it in no way compares to the justice of God. What happened to you is not just at all.

Isaiah 1:18 " Come now, let us REASON together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.

Member of WELS


IzzyPop
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Echo wrote: This situation

Echo wrote:
This situation doesn't work because God did not create evil.

As was already pointed out in this thread:

Isaiah 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these [things].

The analogy does fit.

Echo wrote:
So sorry to hear that this happened to you. I assure you, it in no way compares to the justice of God. What happened to you is not just at all.

I thank you for your concern. This is exactly God's justice. Look at the flood. God's children are being bad and pissing him off (sinning and all). God then punishes his children, maybe a bit too harshly (the Flood). God realizes that he maybe went a bit far, apologizes, promises to never do it again, and even gives them a present (the rainbow)! Then  later on he even promises his children he will do it again if they are bad (Revalations)!  Been there, done that, got the fucking t-shirt. This describes an abusive relationship to a tee.

Need more? How about arbitrary rules that make no cognitive sense and have no consistancy with massive punishments for infractions? Watching every move you make and giving no privacy? Standard controlling/domineering tatics in an abusive realtionship.

This is not to say that I rejected beief in God(s) due to my childhood traumas. Just pointing out the similarities between God's 'love' and the 'love' expressed to all those women and chlidren in shelters, hospitals, and graveyards.

"When you hit your thumb with a hammer it's nice to be able to blaspheme. It takes a special kind of atheist to jump up and down shout, 'Oh, random fluctuations-in-the-space-time-continuum!'"-Terry Pratchett