Kirk and Ray Debate

Echo
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Kirk and Ray Debate

Hello and peace to you from me. I hope my post comes across as gentle and respectful as it is sometimes hard to convey gentleness and respect and a soft sad heart online. My heart is sad and I would like to have a peaceful and loving conversation with you.

I watched the online debate. I see that you both are passionate about what you believe. I admire passion, I admire your passion, but I disagree with all your views respectfully.

The emphasis of your view, or the point that stood out to me the most seems to be on "the fear of punishment"
Brian said that both him and Kelly were raised Christian. I have to question in what church? I suspect a Church with "false teaching"
False teaching has the potential to harm or destroy faith. God has warned us about this in his word.

Could we discuss your "fear of punishment" I wonder?

Can I ask you both, do you have children, mothers, sisters? Or how about you yourself Kelly...

If a pedophile or a rapist is caught trying to get at your children, your mother, your sister, or you....Would you call the police so that they could warn him? Or should he be free to do as he pleases?

Do you think that if people commit these crimes that their should be punishment ?

Isaiah 1:18 " Come now, let us REASON together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.

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James Cizuz
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Wow, you sir are a fucking

Wow, you sir are a fucking moron. They answered this in the debate, I guess you overlooked it.


Echo
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My apologies if I missed it.

My apologies if I missed it. Could someone please give the answer again?


American Atheist
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Everyone should be punished

Everyone should be punished for their crimes. But being sent to Hell and burn forever is not right!


D-cubed
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Echo wrote: If a pedophile

Echo wrote:
If a pedophile or a rapist is caught trying to get at your children, your mother, your sister, or you....Would you call the police so that they could warn him? Or should he be free to do as he pleases? Do you think that if people commit these crimes that their should be punishment ?

If I was a Christian I would take this rapist and move him to a different community and threaten his victims to keep silent.  Then I'd appeal to the authorities to grant him immunity from prosecution. Such is the case with the Catholic Church.  So as a Christian it doesn't appear that your religious community has the higher moral ground here.  In an Atheist society there are no special protections for a religious rapist, no god or church to cleanse their sins.

Perhaps you should watch the documentary "Deliver Us From Evil" where one of your Christian rapists (who raped over 200 children) is walking free and openly bragging about how he got away with his crimes and how he bears no guilt because he's right with God. 


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Infinite punishment for

Infinite punishment for finite crimes does not represent a very loving or forgiving "god".


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BGH wrote: Infinite

BGH wrote:
Infinite punishment for finite crimes does not represent a very loving or forgiving "god".

Thank you!


Echo
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Quote: But being sent to

Quote:
But being sent to Hell and burn forever is not right!

Why not? They chose it themselves.


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Echo wrote: Quote: But

Echo wrote:
Quote:
But being sent to Hell and burn forever is not right!
Why not? They chose it themselves.

No they didn't. God knew what they would do before they did it.

Yet he created them to go to Hell. Also, the Bible doesn't teach free will. 


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Echo wrote: Brian said

Echo wrote:

Brian said that both him and Kelly were raised Christian. I have to question in what church? I suspect a Church with "false teaching"
False teaching has the potential to harm or destroy faith. God has warned us about this in his word.

Echo, can you explain to me precisely how you know that your understand of Christianity isn't false teaching?


Echo
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D-cubed,I am not Catholic.

D-cubed,

I am not Catholic. I don’t agree with many of their teachings. The Bible warns about false teachers. I am not going to defend them. I share your feelings on the point you made wholeheartedly. If a fellow Christian in my church were caught raping someone, he would have to pay the consequences of his actions.

BGH

Quote:
Infinite punishment for finite crimes does not represent a very loving or forgiving "god".

A pedophile can do his deed in about ½ hour. Should he only be sentenced to prison for ½ hour?
An eternity in Hell reveals the seriousness of sin in the eyes of a Holy and Just and perfect God. A god who loves mankind so much more than you or I could even imagine.
Instead of focusing on the justice, focus on the love God has for mankind and the pain he feels each time we commit a sin against one another. Imagine the pain, that a God who never sins feels, every time someone sins against you.
He wants your life to be perfect, he wants your life to be pain free, he doesn’t want anyone harming you in any way. He wants you to be loved perfectly. And because they do harm you, he feels they deserve an eternity in Hell for harming you and hurting you. Imagine that.

American Atheist

Quote:
No they didn't. God knew what they would do before they did it.

Yet he created them to go to Hell. Also, the Bible doesn't teach free will.

Got didn’t create anyone to go to Hell. He wants everyone, including you, to go to heaven. See for yourself what he says: 1 Timothy 2:3-4 “This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.”
Your included in the “all” my friend.

We have always had the free will to choose to do good or evil. This is called “civic righteousness” Which is the ability to do good as recognized by society. But anything not done in faith is not recognized as good in the eyes of God. The free will that we lose is the freedom to choose God. Since the fall in Eden, we no longer have the free will to choose God. We instead hate God and are apposed to him. Free will is restored upon hearing the gospel message. Think of it like this….we can’t choose a God we don’t understand and know nothing about. He must first reveal himself to us and then that enables us to accept him or reject him.

MrRage

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Echo, can you explain to me precisely how you know that your understand of Christianity isn't false teaching?

Wow difficult question. Complicated to answer but Let’s see if I can explain this in a simple way…
By doing as the Bereans: Acts 17:11 “Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.”

I examine every teaching that crosses my path in light of scripture. Through that process, I am refined in my understanding.

Isaiah 1:18 " Come now, let us REASON together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.

Member of WELS


BGH
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Echo wrote:   BGH Quote:

Echo wrote:
  BGH
Quote:
Infinite punishment for finite crimes does not represent a very loving or forgiving "god".
A pedophile can do his deed in about ½ hour. Should he only be sentenced to prison for ½ hour? An eternity in Hell reveals the seriousness of sin in the eyes of a Holy and Just and perfect God. A god who loves mankind so much more than you or I could even imagine. Instead of focusing on the justice, focus on the love God has for mankind and the pain he feels each time we commit a sin against one another. Imagine the pain, that a God who never sins feels, every time someone sins against you. He wants your life to be perfect, he wants your life to be pain free, he doesn’t want anyone harming you in any way. He wants you to be loved perfectly. And because they do harm you, he feels they deserve an eternity in Hell for harming you and hurting you. Imagine that.

Well, there is something you are failing to understand in your prostylitizing, I don't believe god exists. Telling me how much he loves me is like telling me telling me the easter bunny gave you a colostomy and he wants to do the same for everyone. 

 Again, an infinite punishment is not justice, in any manner, for a finite crime. The false comparison you give analogizing it to a pedophile does not work. For one, I did not "create" the pedophile, knowing ahead of time his path in life. There is a limited about of time any criminal can be punished, even when serving a life term this is a limited punishment. If your god is true, if he is the creator, if he knows all events ahead of time, he knew before I was born I would reach a point in my life where I no longer believed. Yet, if he exists, he knew all this but still allowed my birth in order that when I die he can punish me eternally.

I do not believe your god exists, and if he did he would not deserve my worship nor anyone else's. The god of your bible is not just, he is not loving, he is not fair, to sum it up in one word.... he is an ASSHOLE.


Echo
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BGH,So you "were" a

BGH,

So you "were" a Christian? Can I ask what caused you to lose your faith? I suspect you were a victim of false teaching from some of the things you said in your post.
The Bible warns us to watch out for false teachers for this very reason.

God is 100% just
God is 100% merciful
He can't be anything less.

Isaiah 1:18 " Come now, let us REASON together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.

Member of WELS


kellym78
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Echo wrote:

Echo wrote:
Hello and peace to you from me. I hope my post comes across as gentle and respectful as it is sometimes hard to convey gentleness and respect and a soft sad heart online. My heart is sad and I would like to have a peaceful and loving conversation with you. I watched the online debate. I see that you both are passionate about what you believe. I admire passion, I admire your passion, but I disagree with all your views respectfully. The emphasis of your view, or the point that stood out to me the most seems to be on "the fear of punishment" Brian said that both him and Kelly were raised Christian. I have to question in what church? I suspect a Church with "false teaching" False teaching has the potential to harm or destroy faith. God has warned us about this in his word. Could we discuss your "fear of punishment" I wonder? Can I ask you both, do you have children, mothers, sisters? Or how about you yourself Kelly... If a pedophile or a rapist is caught trying to get at your children, your mother, your sister, or you....Would you call the police so that they could warn him? Or should he be free to do as he pleases? Do you think that if people commit these crimes that their should be punishment ?

 

First of all, whether I have children or not is irrelevant. I happen to have 3, and if any of them were abused or molested i any way it would be extraordinarily difficult to not kill them with my bare hands. But, as a general principle, I do not believe in using physical punishment for my children, either. I feel that speaking to them logically about why what they did was problematic versus just scaring them into compliance. Spanking or threatening a child may obtain a short term objective (as in the undersirable behavior is thwarted by their fear of punishment, but in the long term it is harmful and no real lesson is taught about morality. The focus of the interaction becomes the pain caused by the parent and then their only motivation for behavior is based on fear. I prefer to develop a relationship with my kids based on mutual respect and love. Fear will only work for so long. The difference between that and the "fear of god" is that god punishes eternally for things that he personally finds disrespectful and not things that are pretty much objectively morally bankrupt and only for the benefit of the parents to assert control and dominance over smaller creatures. I would like to have a more democratic and egalitarian relationship with my kids because they realize that my request have a basis in either their immediate4 safety or in necessity. I'm not sure if that exactly answers your question, but if you have more specific questions, feel free to ask.

Thanks,

Kelly


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Echo wrote: Got didn’t

Echo wrote:
Got didn’t create anyone to go to Hell. He wants everyone, including you, to go to heaven. See for yourself what he says: 1 Timothy 2:3-4 “This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.”

That verse is for the people that actually believe in god. 

Quote:
Your included in the “all” my friend. We have always had the free will to choose to do good or evil. This is called “civic righteousness” Which is the ability to do good as recognized by society. But anything not done in faith is not recognized as good in the eyes of God. The free will that we lose is the freedom to choose God. Since the fall in Eden, we no longer have the free will to choose God. We instead hate God and are apposed to him. Free will is restored upon hearing the gospel message. Think of it like this….we can’t choose a God we don’t understand and know nothing about. He must first reveal himself to us and then that enables us to accept him or reject him.

In that case, I don't think god has ever revealed himself to anybody.

He knew ahead of time that man would sin, yet didn't do anything about it. Also, the all-knowing god wants us to follow the commandments. Let me put it like this, if god is all-knowing, then we can't have free will. It's like watching a movie 100 times, and now that you know what the actors/actresses will do before it happens, all of a sudden...you expect them to change the plot and ending.

It's confusing, but see how ridiculous it is to think that this God gave us free will? Undecided 


kellym78
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D-cubed wrote: Echo

D-cubed wrote:

Echo wrote:
If a pedophile or a rapist is caught trying to get at your children, your mother, your sister, or you....Would you call the police so that they could warn him? Or should he be free to do as he pleases? Do you think that if people commit these crimes that their should be punishment ?

If I was a Christian I would take this rapist and move him to a different community and threaten his victims to keep silent. Then I'd appeal to the authorities to grant him immunity from prosecution. Such is the case with the Catholic Church. So as a Christian it doesn't appear that your religious community has the higher moral ground here. In an Atheist society there are no special protections for a religious rapist, no god or church to cleanse their sins.

Perhaps you should watch the documentary "Deliver Us From Evil" where one of your Christian rapists (who raped over 200 children) is walking free and openly bragging about how he got away with his crimes and how he bears no guilt because he's right with God.

Being "right with god" is enormously important in legal situations. Trusme, I know. My atheis has been used against me in every single court case I have had about my divorce, custoy, and support. (Not to mention my profession.) Moving in with a group of "satanic ateists" has also been used against me in court. If I was a good christian or a so-called "model citizen", I'm sure that the outcome would have been much different. Outside of my personal experience, nonreligious people are just not respected in our society at all, and this is evident by the hatred and vilification that are lobbed towards atheists every day.


kellym78
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American Atheist

American Atheist wrote:
Everyone should be punished for their crimes. But being sent to Hell and burn forever is not right!

I agree that people should be punished for their sins against other actual people, not some imaginary mythological figure. 


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I'm curious then...what

I'm curious then...what exactly is "true teaching" for you Echo.


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kellym78 wrote: American

kellym78 wrote:

American Atheist wrote:
Everyone should be punished for their crimes. But being sent to Hell and burn forever is not right!

I agree that people should be punished for their sins against other actual people, not some imaginary mythological figure. 

Indeed. 


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I'd rather go to Hell than

I'd rather go to Hell than worship your God. Your probaly just a terrarist like Kirk and Ray. If there is a God i'll tell him to go to hell for all the murders he has committed.

 

 

Have a good dayLaughing


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As a Christian, I don't

As a Christian, I don't believe that Hell is a place of eternal torture...there are still some advents of that, but I've always believed that Hell (or at least the concept of it) was a place of removal from the sight of God; that is to say, a place of isolation, perhaps?  Most of what I've studied in regards to Hell over the years has led me far away from the whole "fire and brimstone" approach to the negative afterlife.  On the same hand, using that definition, in my opinion I would think an eternity of isolation would be quite an effective punishment to use against someone who spent their life hurting children (since we're using that as a debate point). 

Now, were you to ask me if I also believed that atheists would see the same punishment, you'd get a far different answer...


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Dave_G wrote: I'd rather

Dave_G wrote:

I'd rather go to Hell than worship your God. Your probaly just a terrarist like Kirk and Ray. If there is a God i'll tell him to go to hell for all the murders he has committed.

 

 

Have a good dayLaughing

 Well, on the off chance that I'm actually RIGHT about Hell being a place of isolation and NOT the fire and brimstone/endless torture approach (which, I feel, is severely outdated...organized religion should have moved on from scare tactics hundreds of years ago), I can't see any reason why a steadfast atheist would be upset with being in Hell - essentially if it's defined as a place of isolation away from the sight of God. 

Hope that doesn't come across offensively or anything, it isn't intended to.

 

Smiling


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kellym78 wrote: Echo

kellym78 wrote:

Echo wrote:
Hello and peace to you from me. I hope my post comes across as gentle and respectful as it is sometimes hard to convey gentleness and respect and a soft sad heart online. My heart is sad and I would like to have a peaceful and loving conversation with you. I watched the online debate. I see that you both are passionate about what you believe. I admire passion, I admire your passion, but I disagree with all your views respectfully. The emphasis of your view, or the point that stood out to me the most seems to be on "the fear of punishment" Brian said that both him and Kelly were raised Christian. I have to question in what church? I suspect a Church with "false teaching" False teaching has the potential to harm or destroy faith. God has warned us about this in his word. Could we discuss your "fear of punishment" I wonder? Can I ask you both, do you have children, mothers, sisters? Or how about you yourself Kelly... If a pedophile or a rapist is caught trying to get at your children, your mother, your sister, or you....Would you call the police so that they could warn him? Or should he be free to do as he pleases? Do you think that if people commit these crimes that their should be punishment ?

 

First of all, whether I have children or not is irrelevant. I happen to have 3, and if any of them were abused or molested i any way it would be extraordinarily difficult to not kill them with my bare hands. But, as a general principle, I do not believe in using physical punishment for my children, either. I feel that speaking to them logically about why what they did was problematic versus just scaring them into compliance. Spanking or threatening a child may obtain a short term objective (as in the undersirable behavior is thwarted by their fear of punishment, but in the long term it is harmful and no real lesson is taught about morality. The focus of the interaction becomes the pain caused by the parent and then their only motivation for behavior is based on fear. I prefer to develop a relationship with my kids based on mutual respect and love. Fear will only work for so long. The difference between that and the "fear of god" is that god punishes eternally for things that he personally finds disrespectful and not things that are pretty much objectively morally bankrupt and only for the benefit of the parents to assert control and dominance over smaller creatures. I would like to have a more democratic and egalitarian relationship with my kids because they realize that my request have a basis in either their immediate4 safety or in necessity. I'm not sure if that exactly answers your question, but if you have more specific questions, feel free to ask.

Thanks,

Kelly

 

And as Dan Barker put it you probbaly won't send your kids to the Gas Chamber.


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Just Me... wrote:

Just Me... wrote:
Dave_G wrote:

I'd rather go to Hell than worship your God. Your probaly just a terrarist like Kirk and Ray. If there is a God i'll tell him to go to hell for all the murders he has committed.

Have a good dayLaughing

Well, on the off chance that I'm actually RIGHT about Hell being a place of isolation and NOT the fire and brimstone/endless torture approach (which, I feel, is severely outdated...organized religion should have moved on from scare tactics hundreds of years ago), I can't see any reason why a steadfast atheist would be upset with being in Hell - essentially if it's defined as a place of isolation away from the sight of God.

Hope that doesn't come across offensively or anything, it isn't intended to.

Smiling

 

 

Work on this:

 

  • "Shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2)
  • "Everlasting punishment" (Mathew 25:46)
  • "Weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 24:51)
  • "Fire unquenchable" (Luke 3:17)
  • "Indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish" (Romans 2:8,9)
  • "Everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
  • "Eternal fire...the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 7,13)

 

[Mod Edit: Fixed Quotes]


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Dave_G wrote: Just Me...

Dave_G wrote:
Just Me... wrote:
Dave_G wrote:

I'd rather go to Hell than worship your God. Your probaly just a terrarist like Kirk and Ray. If there is a God i'll tell him to go to hell for all the murders he has committed.

Have a good dayLaughing

 Well, on the off chance that I'm actually RIGHT about Hell being a place of isolation and NOT the fire and brimstone/endless torture approach (which, I feel, is severely outdated...organized religion should have moved on from scare tactics hundreds of years ago), I can't see any reason why a steadfast atheist would be upset with being in Hell - essentially if it's defined as a place of isolation away from the sight of God. 

Hope that doesn't come across offensively or anything, it isn't intended to.

Smiling

Work on this:

  • "Shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2)
  • "Everlasting punishment" (Mathew 25:46)
  • "Weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 24:51)
  • "Fire unquenchable" (Luke 3:17)
  • "Indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish" (Romans 2:8,9)
  • "Everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
  • "Eternal fire...the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 7,13)

 Scare tactics.  Again, I'm a non-practicing Christian, but I can and will go on record as saying that a God of infinite love is not going to subject somebody who rejects Him but has otherwise lead a great and giving life, being kind to others and otherwise being a decent human being to an eternity of endless torture.  Doing so would defeat everything He represents. 

I have zero doubt that the writers of the bible took a lot of creative liberty into scaring people into faith...honestly, I can't endorse the idea of people/souls being tortured eternally for something as trivial as a lack of belief.  It's irrational to assume that a being infinite in nature would be so petty at it's base. 

 Of course, I can't justify any of this logically, I'm simply stating my own perspective on things as I see them - anybody's free to agree or disagree and no proof otherwise is needed, since I'm not offering any in the first place. 

If the atheist perspective is the truth, then there is no afterlife anyway, and none of us will be going anywhere, so...


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So the Bible is

So the Bible is wrong?

 

  • "Shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2)
  • "Everlasting punishment" (Mathew 25:46)
  • "Weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 24:51)
  • "Fire unquenchable" (Luke 3:17)
  • "Indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish" (Romans 2:8,9)
  • "Everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
  • "Eternal fire...the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 7,13)

 


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It was written by men. 

It was written by men.  I'm not one of those foolish Christians think that everything in it is correct to the nth degree.  Hell, science alone has pretty well established that the first human beings barely lived beyond their mid 20s or so.  The bible would have me believe that the first human beings lived upwards of 1500 years, give or take.  New Earth Christians want me to believe that the planet is less than 7000 years old and evidence to the contrary was planted by God to fool us all...sure...

While I can say that I don't think it's accurate in every angle, I think there's some leeway that can be given in way of creative wording.  Example: Stephen King, in his story "Storm of the Century", referenced the Roanoke disappearance - by his insinuation, a demon possessed them all to jump into the ocean and drown themselves.  True?  Most likely not, but Roanoake's citizens did vanish, one way or another.  That's historically accurate and can be verified.

I take the bible in much the same way - if it can be qualified by concrete science, I can certainly accept it.  If it can't, then it is of course open to speculation.  But the beauty of religion is that it's faith based and I don't necessarily need any logic or proof to believe what I want to believe, unless I'm trying to convince someone that I'm right and they're wrong (one of organized Christianity's biggest failings, I think).  At that point, the burden of proof is on me, not anybody else, and I can't just point at a bible and say "See?  Here it is!" and call that qualified proof.

The plus side for me in all of this is that I like open discussion and debate...new ideas and concepts...NEVER do I try to tell anybody that I'm right and they're wrong; faith is a thing that's either felt or not, it can't be proven - and at His base, God is a faith based matter, period.

In essence, yes, the bible can (and is) wrong - but that admission doesn't necessarily mean that the whole of my belief structure is wrong, either.


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Well separation from God

Well separation from God sounds like a good deal for me.


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Well, taken from that

Well, taken from that perspective, I have no doubt that you'll find it.  Again, no insult implied or intended; if I'm right, you'll see a separation.  If the fire and brimstone inc. approach is correct, there will still be a separation.  If you're right, then there will never be any contact with Him at all.

Actually, when you look at it, you have the surefire deal - me, I'm still stuck hoping for the best, lmao... Smiling


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No insult applied, but

No insult applied, but Pascal's wager sucks.

 

I'm not  going to waste my time believing in some fairy tail.


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That's the beauty of it all

That's the beauty of it all - you don't have to.  It's a faith based concept - either you have faith or you don't, and I'm certainly not stupid enough to try and convince you follow a course that doesn't fit you based solely on the precept that it's a safer course of action.  I don't think it makes you any worse of a person at all.  Most Christians might, but...I think there's room for evolution within us as well Smiling

 Good chat.


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Well heres a Bible quiz

Well heres a Bible quiz that think you will enjoy:

 

http://www.ffrf.org/quiz/bquiz.php


Dave_G
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[Mod Edit: Double Post]

[Mod Edit: Double Post]


BGH
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Echo wrote: BGH, So you

Echo wrote:
BGH, So you "were" a Christian? Can I ask what caused you to lose your faith? I suspect you were a victim of false teaching from some of the things you said in your post. The Bible warns us to watch out for false teachers for this very reason. God is 100% just God is 100% merciful He can't be anything less.

Actually no, I just opened my eyes and my mind. I realized I was deluding myself. Maybe some day you might do the same, if you stick around here long enough.


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Pascal's wager is bullshit.

Pascal's wager is bullshit. Not the safest course of action - if Moslems are right you'll go to hell too, also you will if the more fundie type of Christians are right.

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Cantankerous Old Fusspots

"The trouble with born-again Christians is that they are an even bigger pain the second time around."
~ Herb Caen



What's up forum-ites?



Firstly-ish, I am a 27 year-old Christian and I watched the debate the other night. Needless to say, there is no doubt that the Christians bit off more than they could chew. I knew right from the get-go when Ray claimed that he could "prove God's existence" that they were about to get their asses handed to them by Brian and Kelly. You can't prove that God exists any more than you can prove that chocolate is the best flavour ice cream, that Lost is a good show, that Alec Baldwin is a twit or that playing HALO with your buddies for 10 hours straight is NOT a waste of time.

Secondly, I knew that you (RRSq) would get a ton of un-Christian like scathing emails from loving and devoted "Christians". Sorry about that (for what it's worth). I'm very embarrassed by some of my "brethren" (namely those on T.V. i.e. Pat Roberston) the same as I am embarrassed by farting in front of a hot chick. I think that it's a shame that you must conceal your last names and location due to death threats. If anything, it's a definite mark against Christianly "brotherly love".

Lastly, I think that everyone has a large enough brain to come to their own conclusions about the existence of God, Buddha, the Tooth Fairy, Global Warming and Santa Clause. I don't advocate indoctrination of any means and don't push my faith on people. I have friends that don't believe, gay friends, straight friends, black, white as well as Christian friends. I don't know why some Christians are such pricks (i.e. the moron that spelled the 'eff' bomb every which way but right), but then, why is anyone a gigantic ass? Yet I digress...All I know is that there are some things that cannot be proven. It's whatever brings you happiness in your short life that matters I guess. You guys are good people and rational humans, entitled to your own view.

P.S. Hopefully, you know that ALL Christians aren't such twitty gits or "twat waffles" as one member so put it. Ha ha...

P.S.S. Some of your shirts are pretty funny.

 

David



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Echo wrote: Hello and peace

Echo wrote:
Hello and peace to you from me. I hope my post comes across as gentle and respectful as it is sometimes hard to convey gentleness and respect and a soft sad heart online. My heart is sad and I would like to have a peaceful and loving conversation with you. I watched the online debate. I see that you both are passionate about what you believe. I admire passion, I admire your passion, but I disagree with all your views respectfully. The emphasis of your view, or the point that stood out to me the most seems to be on "the fear of punishment" Brian said that both him and Kelly were raised Christian. I have to question in what church? I suspect a Church with "false teaching" False teaching has the potential to harm or destroy faith. God has warned us about this in his word. Could we discuss your "fear of punishment" I wonder? Can I ask you both, do you have children, mothers, sisters? Or how about you yourself Kelly... If a pedophile or a rapist is caught trying to get at your children, your mother, your sister, or you....Would you call the police so that they could warn him? Or should he be free to do as he pleases? Do you think that if people commit these crimes that their should be punishment ?

Greetings! I apologize for some of the more rude atheists here. I won't mention names, but it's obvious who they are.

I'd have to agree with BGH, eternal punishment for any crime is too much. Seriously, even the worst crimes are paid for after 100, 200 million years tops. Punishment, yes, but only as much as the crime warrants.  

Also, click the link in my signature "Disproving Christianity in 3 Words". Make sure sound is on, it's a video. See if it is convincing or not. After all, you give us a challenge, it is only fair one of us gives you one.


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You might want to post that

You might want to post that link - not all of us can see signatures.


Echo
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Kelly Quote: and if any of

Kelly

Quote:
and if any of them were abused or molested i any way it would be extraordinarily difficult to not kill them with my bare hands.
And so you can understand and relate to the anger and justice of God.

Quote:
I feel that speaking to them logically about why what they did was problematic versus just scaring them into compliance

I agree with you. Children in a relationship with their parents should not be scared into compliance. God does not scare us into compliance either. The Bible teaches that fear is not the motivator in our relationship with God. Instead, Love is the motivator, much like it is with you and your children. Those who serve God out of fear have not come to understand the love of God. Those who serve God out of fear serve a God their own mind has made up.
1 John 4:18 “There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love”

However, if your children are in danger of losing there life for some reason and they stubbornly refuse to heed your advice to avoid that, then out of love for them would you instill the fear of death in them in order to keep them from continually and stubbornly resisting you?

Quote:
I prefer to develop a relationship with my kids based on mutual respect and love.

And so you can relate to God then. God also bases his relationship with us on mutual respect and love.

Quote:
I would like to have a more democratic and egalitarian relationship with my kids because they realize that my request have a basis in either their immediate4 safety or in necessity.

And so it is with God. His requests have their basis in his children’s immediate safety and necessity also.

American Atheist

Quote:
In that case, I don't think god has ever revealed himself to anybody.

He knew ahead of time that man would sin, yet didn't do anything about it. Also, the all-knowing god wants us to follow the commandments. Let me put it like this, if god is all-knowing, then we can't have free will. It's like watching a movie 100 times, and now that you know what the actors/actresses will do before it happens, all of a sudden...you expect them to change the plot and ending.

It's confusing, but see how ridiculous it is to think that this God gave us free will?

In Eden, right after Adam and Eve sinned, God promised them a savior from their sin. So God did something about it right away.

As for your movie example, it doesn’t work in the case with God. Things are not fatalistically determined as in a movie. The bible teaches clearly that prayer changes the course of history and that God actually changes his mind in response to the prayers of his children. So the fact that God knows all things in advance does not mean things are fatalistically determined. Think of it like this. My child loves potato chips. Therefore if I have any in the house, I can be sure he is going to find them and eat them. I can know in advance that he will eat those chips. But I am not the one who made the decision for him to go ahead and eat them. So to sum up, just because God knows what we will do, that doesn’t mean he is responsible for what we do. We ourselves are responsible.

CrazyRoper

Quote:
I'm curious then...what exactly is "true teaching" for you Echo.

True teaching is the teaching of the Bible.

Everyrone else.

Hell could be defined as seperation from God. We ourselves choose to be seperate from God, Hell is ours by choice. In the end, God only gives us what we asked of him all along. He respects our wishes.
I am uncertain wether the warnings about Hell are to be taken literally. They speak more of a self inflicted torture than something God actually causes. Since God is light, naturally the absense of God in Hell causes darkness. Since God is love, the absense of his love in Hell would be likewise. In Hell, the weeping and gnashing of teeth could be caused by one's own sense of realizing how foolish and stubborn they were on earth to not listen to anything God had to say. Perhaps a full realization that they got what they wanted.

Isaiah 1:18 " Come now, let us REASON together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.

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Dave_G
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Why did God create

Why did God create evil?

 

Isaih 45:11


Echo
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I watched the clip about

I watched the clip about "disproving Christianity in three words." All of the fellows arguments are based on his misinterpretation of scripture.

Isaiah 1:18 " Come now, let us REASON together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.

Member of WELS


Iruka Naminori
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Echo wrote: I watched the

Echo wrote:
I watched the clip about "disproving Christianity in three words." All of the fellows arguments are based on his misinterpretation of scripture.

Okay, why don't you give us the "correct" interpretation of scripture? 

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Echo
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Quote: Why did God create

Quote:
Why did God create evil?

God is not the author of evil.

God created Satan as an angel. Satan rebelled against God.

Isaiah 1:18 " Come now, let us REASON together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.

Member of WELS


Echo
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Quote:Okay, why don't you

Quote:
Okay, why don't you give us the "correct" interpretation of scripture?

Okay, Start a new thread and then pick and post one point and we will begin there.

Isaiah 1:18 " Come now, let us REASON together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.

Member of WELS


JeremiahSmith
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Echo wrote: Quote: Why did

Echo wrote:
Quote:
Why did God create evil?
God is not the author of evil. God created Satan as an angel. Satan rebelled against God.

Bet old Yahweh didn't see THAT one coming, huh? "Satan, I need your help with somethi-- what's this? A traitor! My own creation, rebelling against me! If only I was omniscient I could have prevented this when I made you!" 

Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.


Echo
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Quote: If only I was

Quote:
If only I was omniscient I could have prevented this when I made you!"

He could have prevented it but he didn't. He had a higher purpose. God values our freedom above all else, to be individuals with the ability to love or to hate him. Robots can't love freely. If he prevented it from happening, we would be robots. We would not be free to love him if we choose.

Which would give you more satisfaction? A child who loves you and obeys you just because they want to and because they really love you or a robot who simply does what you want with no desire or emotion?

Isaiah 1:18 " Come now, let us REASON together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.

Member of WELS


MattShizzle
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Echo wrote: Quote: Why did

Echo wrote:
Quote:
Why did God create evil?
God is not the author of evil.

So the Bible, specifically Isaiah 45:11 is wrong?

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


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Echo wrote: He could have

Echo wrote:
He could have prevented it but he didn't.

And that puts the responsibility in whose lap?

Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.


Echo
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Quote: Echo

Quote:
Echo wrote:

Quote:

Why did God create evil?

God is not the author of evil.

So the Bible, specifically Isaiah 45:11 is wrong?

The Bible is never wrong, our interpretation of the Bible is what is wrong.

Isaiah 45:11 ""This is what the LORD says— the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker: Concerning things to come, do you question me about my children, or give me orders about the work of my hands?"

We were discussing if God was the author of evil. This verse has nothing to do with that.

Isaiah 1:18 " Come now, let us REASON together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.

Member of WELS


Echo
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Quote: And that puts the

Quote:
And that puts the responsibility in whose lap?
with freedom comes responsibility. It is now in our laps.

Isaiah 1:18 " Come now, let us REASON together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.

Member of WELS


Susan
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daaveecrocket wrote: "The

daaveecrocket wrote:

"The trouble with born-again Christians is that they are an even bigger pain the second time around."
~ Herb Caen



What's up forum-ites?



Firstly-ish, I am a 27 year-old Christian and I watched the debate the other night. Needless to say, there is no doubt that the Christians bit off more than they could chew. I knew right from the get-go when Ray claimed that he could "prove God's existence" that they were about to get their asses handed to them by Brian and Kelly. You can't prove that God exists any more than you can prove that chocolate is the best flavour ice cream, that Lost is a good show, that Alec Baldwin is a twit or that playing HALO with your buddies for 10 hours straight is NOT a waste of time.

Secondly, I knew that you (RRSq) would get a ton of un-Christian like scathing emails from loving and devoted "Christians". Sorry about that (for what it's worth). I'm very embarrassed by some of my "brethren" (namely those on T.V. i.e. Pat Roberston) the same as I am embarrassed by farting in front of a hot chick. I think that it's a shame that you must conceal your last names and location due to death threats. If anything, it's a definite mark against Christianly "brotherly love".

Lastly, I think that everyone has a large enough brain to come to their own conclusions about the existence of God, Buddha, the Tooth Fairy, Global Warming and Santa Clause. I don't advocate indoctrination of any means and don't push my faith on people. I have friends that don't believe, gay friends, straight friends, black, white as well as Christian friends. I don't know why some Christians are such pricks (i.e. the moron that spelled the 'eff' bomb every which way but right), but then, why is anyone a gigantic ass? Yet I digress...All I know is that there are some things that cannot be proven. It's whatever brings you happiness in your short life that matters I guess. You guys are good people and rational humans, entitled to your own view.

P.S. Hopefully, you know that ALL Christians aren't such twitty gits or "twat waffles" as one member so put it. Ha ha...

P.S.S. Some of your shirts are pretty funny.

 

David

Welcome, David.  I already like you a lot and can tell you are not a twatwaffle!  Wink

Take a minute and hop over to General Conversation, Introductions and Humor and introduce yourself.

We look forward to having you participate in the discussions and debates here!

 

 

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