Questions about God... theists answer these!

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Questions about God... theists answer these!

List of questions about God, religion and the supernatural have been compiled by IG over the years as well as some interesting ones by readers.

1. If Jesus fulfilled all the OT prophecies so well, why didn't the Jews recognize him as the messiah? - Francois Tremblay

2. If Gen 3:24 is true, why hasn't anyone found the Cherubims and the " flaming sword which turned every way"?

3. It's been proven that modern humans originated from Africa. Yet, the Adam and Eve story claims the first Humans lived in a garden in Eden, near 4 rivers. ( Most of which no one can find). One of these rivers mentioned is the Euphrates, which runs through Iraq, Syria and a portion of Turkey. What's the truth? Did man come out of Africa or near the Euphrates River? - The Infidel Guy

4. When the believer gets to Heaven, how can Heaven be utter bliss when people they love and care about are burning in Hell ? - The Infidel Guy - [Note: Some say God erases your memories of them, but if God erases your memory, you as Mr. Joe /Jane Smoe ceases to exist.]

5. How can a God have emotions, i.e. jealousy, anger, sadness, love, etc., if he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent? Emotional states are reactionary for the most part. How can God react to us if he is all-knowing and has a divine plan? - IG [Note: Indeed, many religious texts display their gods this way . Listen to the An Emotional Godshow.]
6. Why would God create a place such as hell to torture sinners forever when he foreknew who would disappoint him? - IG [Note: Some say you have a choice, but this misses the point. If God hates sin so much, why create Adam and Eve when he knew they'd sin? The only conclusion I can come up with, if Yaweh exists, is that he wanted sin to enter the world.]

7. "God is all merciful," we hear quite often. Wouldn't it be more merciful of God to simply snap sinners out of existence rather than send them to hell? Or better yet, since he's all-knowing, not allow them to be born at all? - IG
ON GOD'S LOVE & HELL
1.) God's love is superlative.
2.) God's love of man exceeds man's love of self.
3.) Man's love of self prohibits torture.
4.) Considering God's greater love for us, Hell (eternal torture) is illogical.

8. Muslims are supposed to pray 5 times a day towards Mecca. Each prayer includes a variety of ritualism and posturing. If a muslim astronaut were to land on Mars. Prayer to Mecca would be ritualistically impossible due to the rotation of Earth and Mars. Are Muslims stuck here in Earth? IG [Note: Since this was first posted, a Muslim astronaut was faced with this very dilemma. The authoritative clergy informed him to pray as he normally would. I see this no where in the Koran. You see? Religions must change, or die out. It's interesting to note that, in the Koran, the moon is believed to be in the lowest Heaven, the level for those that barely made it to Heaven. Surah 71:15-16. One problem, no man can supposedly get to Heaven until they die. Yet, we've been to the moon. Our satellites beyond that.]

9. Why haven't we seen God reattach severed heads, restore someone who was burned alive or regrow amputated limbs? Surely these would be miracles difficult to deny. - Adam Majors and IG [Note: The typical answer is that man doesn't dictate God's actions. The conundrum here however is that, if God wants us to "know" him, then surely feats such as those mentioned above would be happening all over the world. Until they do, I'll remain an atheist.]

10. Why does God entrust the spreading of 'His' word to sinners? Why doesn't he do it himself? - IG [Note: Surely God would have known that not everyone would be convinced by the reality[sic] of his Bible. If God loves us so much, we are all going to Heaven. If God knew that I would be an atheist, and he doesn't like atheists, he shouldn't have allowed me to come into existence. But he did. Therefore, I must be serving the will of God, for I exist. Smiling]

11. In II Kings 2-23/24 we read about God sending 2 she-bears to attack children for calling the prophet Elisa bald, which he was, the bears killed 42 of the children. Was this a good thing to do? -- Brandon and IG[Note: I have heard some argue that the boys were a gang. So?! I didn't read anywhere in that passage where they laid a finger on the guy . Also, what kind of bears are these that can kill 42 kids? Super Bears? Surely the kids had to be running away.]

12. I have often heard from many believers that even Satan has a presence in the church, which is why even in church people can still have impure thoughts. If Satan can find his way in the church, how do Christians know that Satan didn't find his way into the Bible and twist the whole book? After all, men did vote on which books would make the Holy Bible. - The Infidel Guy

13. Why did God allow Lot and his daughters to escape from Sodom and Gomorra when he destroyed it only to later have Lot and his daughters engage in incestuous fornication. (Genesis 19:30-36) - Disillusioned [Note: To have intercourse with daddy dearest of course.]

14. Genesis 1:28-29 shows that man and all the animals were first created herbivorous. Most young-earth Christians (ones that believes the earth is less than 10,000 years old) say that the fall of man resulted in carnivorous animals ( hence death of animals). So, why did God punish the animal kingdom, making animals kill and devour each other because of man's mistake? Or, if you're an old-earth Christian (one that accepts that animals existed on earth for billions of years before man came on the scene) then how come fossils show carnivorous animals existed before man? - http://www.caseagainstfaith.com/contact.htm.

15. Many Christians believe that God is a thinking being, that he solves problems and makes a way for them when troubles come. Does God Think? If God is thinking, did he know his thoughts before he thought them? If so, again, where is his freewill and how is God thinking at all if everything seems to be one uncontrollable action/thoughts. - The Infidel Guy [Note: I'd say a God cannot think at all. To do so, would strip him of omniscience. Thinking is a temporal process.] ON GOD'S ATEMPORALITY
1.) God, an atemporal being, created the Universe.
2.) Creation is a temporal processes because X cannot cause Y to come into being unless X existed temporally prior to Y.
3.) If God existed prior to the creation of the Universe he is a temporal being.
4.) Since God is atemporal, God cannot be the creator the Universe.
[Note: I guess I should also note here that a timeless being would be without the proposition of past, and future. But to be omniscient, God must know the past and future. Hence a God that is atemporal and omniscient cannot logically exist. Smiling]

16. I have often heard that faith is all that is neccessary to believe in God and accept the Bible as true. If this is true aren't all supernatural beliefs true since they also require "faith"? - IG ON FAITH
1.) A prerequisite to believe in a Faith is faith.
2.) Having faith is all that is required to accept a Faith (belief) as true.
3.) All Faiths are true.
[Note: Of course all Faiths aren`t true, but this is the only logical conclusion that can be drawn from a person that states that, "Faith" is how one knows God.]

17. Why didn't God just kill Adam and Eve after the Fall and start from scratch? Actually, if God is all-knowing wouldn't he know that man would need to be killed eventually anyway, (the biblical flood)? Why create Adam and Eve at all? - and ON THE GARDEN OF EDEN
1.) God is omniscient (all-knowing).
2.) God knew that before he created man that they would eat of the tree of knowledge.
3.) God placed the tree of knowledge in the Garden anyway.
4.) God wanted sin to enter the world.
[Note: If God didn`t want sin to enter the world, why create Adam and Eve at all? He knew what would happen. Why place the forbidden trees in the Garden in the first place?]

18. If a spirit is non-physical but the human body is physical, how does a spirit stay in our bodies? - IG ON SPIRITS
1.) Spirits are not physical entities.
2.) Brains are physical entities.
3.) Past experiences are stored in our physical brains, we call that, Memory..
4.) Injury can damage portions of the physical brain that store memory and can alter or erase memories completely.
5.) If human spirits exist... after death, spirits can have no memory.
[Note: Some will say the spirit stores physical memories as well, but if true, the spirit would have to be physical at least to a degree. How could a non-physical spirit store, physical memories?]

19. Does God know his own future decisions? If God is all-knowing he actually shouldn't have any decisions to make at all. Nor can he choose anything over something else. For that would mean that he is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. In fact, he can't even think if this is the case. Since he can't DO anything, he might as well not exist. - IG ON GOD'S IMMUTABILITY - Unchangingness
1. If God exists, then he is immutable.
2. If God exists, then he is the creator of the universe.
3. An immutable being cannot at one time have an intention and then at a later time not have that intention.
4. For any being to create anything, prior to the creation he must have had the intention to create it, but at a later time, after the creation, no longer have the intention to create it.
5. Thus, it is impossible for an immutable being to have created anything (from 3 and 4).
6. Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1, 2, and 5) - Theodore M. Drange

20. If God is all-knowing, how could he be disappointed in His creation? -- [Note: Indeed, wouldn't God know that before the creation of our Universe what creatures would disappoint him? That being the case why create those creatures at all? Also, in knowing absolutely the behavior of humans before creation, God cannot be disappointed either... for this world is exactly as he has planned it to be. If it's not, why create us at all?]

21. God struck down the Tower of Babel angry at the intent of the people that built them, if this is the case, many of the great pyramids ( which are bigger than any ziggurat) around the world should be rubble also, yet many still stand today. Were not the Egyptians and many other ancient pyramid builders reaching toward God /The Heavens? - IG [Note: In actuality, many of the Pharaoh's believed that, via their pyramids, they would become God's themselves.]

22. In the watchmaker analogy, a watch is used to show us intelligent design and compares that to the Universe as evidence of design. We know watches are designed because we have past experience with watches, as well as with other man made objects. My question is: What Universe is the Intelligent Design proponent using to compare this Universe with to draw such an analogy? What God did he see create a Universe? - IG

23. Why did God flood the earth to remove evil? It didn't work! Evil came right back, God should have known that would happen! So why did He bother? - PhineasBg [Note: A good example of how quickly sin returned, was Noah getting drunk just after they discovered land.]

24. If the garden of Eden was a perfect paradise as xians claim, then why did Eve even want to eat the fruit? Wouldn't a perfect place provide everything a person would want or desire and thus she would want nothing? - keyser soze [Note: Why were the trees there in the first place? Of course they love to throw the serpent into the equation. But ummm..who let the serpent into the Garden?... and why would God create such a creature knowing he would cause man's fall? Hmm.. God must have wanted the fall to happen.]

25. Why would an all-powerful god become flesh in order to sacrifice himself to himself so that his creation might escape the wrath of himself. Couldn't god, in his infinite wisdom, come up with something a little more efficient? - ON THE BODY OF CHRIST
1.) God?s flesh was known as Jesus.
2.) Flesh cannot enter into Heaven (according to Paul)
3.) God is no longer Jesus.
4.) Jesus doesn?t exist.

(Note: Many at this point will state that the spirit lives on so therefore Jesus lives. This really depends on what you believe about Jesus. Is Jesus the son of God or God in flesh? If Jesus is merely the son there is no problem.However, if Jesus ?is? God himself, we do. You see, Jesus is called Jesus because of the attribute of Flesh. If Jesus = God (who is spirit) then the entity known as Jesus ceases to exist. The flesh/body of Jesus, no longer exists and the spirit of God is still the unchanging spirit of God. No Jesus at that point. The Flesh, called Jesus, is dead.)

26. After 9/11 a lot of people have been tossing around " god bless america". Why do they keep saying this? From the looks of it god hasn't blessed anything. If god had blessed america, the 9/11 event would've never happened. Theists seem to give the answer of "everything is part of gods big plan". If everything is part of gods big plan, why are we after Bin Laden? Wasn't he and other terrorists just carrying out gods desired plan? So it seems that Bin Laden/ terrorism isnt our enemy, but god . - [Note: Unfortunately many religious nuts believe they are fulfilling their God's plan by going to war.]

27. Christians say that God is NOT the author of confusion. Can you say, Tower of Babel? - The Screaming Monkeys

28. If Noah's flood supposedly covered the earth for a year, regardless of whether or not all the animals could fit on the ark, what the heck happened to all the plants? Can you imagine a cactus surviving under 4 miles of water for a year? I can't either! - Kyle Giblet [Note: With God all things are possible. Oh wait, except in Judges 1:19.]

29. The highest rainfall ever recorded in a 24 hour period was 47inches in the Reunion Islands in 1947 (during a severe tropical storm). To cover the whole earth to a depth of 5.6 miles, and cover the mountain tops (i.e. Mount Everest), it would need to rain at a rate of 372 (three hundred and seventy two) inches per hour, over the entire surface of the earth. Can rain fall at such an astronomical rate? Where did all the water come from?? Where did it all go to??? And would not the dynamics of the earth be so out of balance (tides etc.) that the earth would become so unstable that it would wobble off into outer space???? -

30. What do Muslim women get in Paradise? - IG [Note: Some Muslims I have interviewed about this say that Muslim women will get the same thing men get or equal value. Smiling Oh really? So Muslim women will get 72 virgin men? lol. If Muslim men get 72 virgins, where are all these virgin women coming from? What of their freewill? Is Allah creating these women to be slaves to the men in Paradise?]

31. In the "Last Days" Jesus is supposed to appear in the clouds. How are the Christians on the opposite end of the world going to see him? Are there going to be millions of Jesus'? What about people that work underground? What about people in deep space? -

32. The Bible says that God is a jealous God . How is this an example of a moral absolute of which man is supposed to follow? - IG ON GOD`S JEALOUSY
1.) "God is love." 1 John 4:8.
2.) "Love is not jealous." 1 Cor 13:4
3.) "I, the Lord thy God, am a jealous God." Exodus 20:5.
4.) The Christian god cannot logically exist.
(NOte: Basically love is NOT jealous, yet god is jealous, then God can`t be love. But if god IS love he cannot be jealous. Be he is.)

33. A true Muslim man is not supposed to do anything that the prophet Muhammad didn't do. If one remembers there was a big debate over whether or not Muslims should eat Mangos. If this is true, why in the Hell were these Islamic Fundamentalists flying airplanes? - IG

34. If the earth was covered by a complete global flood, every living creature killed except those surviving on the ark, why are there many completely unique animal species in Australia that are found no where else indigenously on the earth? -

35. If god is omniscient and " god is love," why would he allow a child to be conceived, knowing that that child would one day reject him and spend eternity burning in a lake of fire?- TiredTurkeyProd

36. Revelations is supposed to take place on Earth. What if we colonize the moon or Mars or inhabit a self-sustaining space station? Do we escape "judgement"? -- Ray Sommers [Note: No we don't Ray... and of course we all know that if there is any intelligent life out there besides us, they are all going to Hell too. Eye-wink]

37. Isaiah 40:28 says, "...the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is he weary?" If this is true, why did God rest on the seventh day?- IG

38. Everytime I go to a funeral the preacher and guests always say that " God " has called that person to Heaven or they say, " God said it was time to come home", or some such variation. If God is calling these people "home", why are we putting the murderers of these victims in prison? How can we punish a man or woman for doing God's will? - IG

39. Does God have a gender? In most churches, God is predominately referred to as a "he"? - IG [Note: The Bible says God is male, but what does this mean? Does God have a penis? Does he have hormones that dictate his gender? Smiling]

40. Why can't we wait until we get to Heaven to worship God ? Why would it be too late? - IG

41. What is the purpose of prayer? What can a finite being on Earth possibly tell an omnipotent, omniscient deity that he doesn't know already? - IG ON PRAYER
1.) Humans can?t change God?s mind for he has a divine plan and is unchangeable.
2.) Prayer can't change God's mind.
3.) Prayer doesn't change anything.
(Prayer may make you feel better emotionally, but it doesn`t change God`s mind.)

42. Some say Jesus was the all-knowing God. Jesus would have known then that when he died he'd be in heaven in less than 3 days to rule. If Jesus is alive and ruling today, what did he sacrifice? -- Cyndy Hammond

43. God knows that men are sinners, untrustworthy and evil, why does God leave it up to fallible man (clergy..etc) to teach others about his word? Why would he put our eternal souls at risk if he loves us so much? - The Infidel Guy and Danno778

44. Did Adam have nipples? If so, how did he acquire them? In fact, why would God give "later man" nipples at all? They serve no purpose other than lactation. Some say pleasure. Where is that in Genesis exactly? All mammals have nipples as well, are theirs pleasureful for them too? Many men don't find their nipples pleasurable at all. - IG

45. How did Adam and Eve know it was wrong to disobey God if they hadn't eaten of the tree of knowledge (of good and evil) yet? You can't blame them if they didn't know. - IG

46. If God has such a tremendous problem with uncircumcised penises, why did he make man with foreskin in the first place? - IG [Note: Some say, "So God can recognize his chosen people." Recognize? Is God so stupid that he has to physically look at men's penises? If not God, do other men need to? lol.]

47. Did Noah have fish onboard? Salt or Fresh? Since fresh water fish would die in salt, and salt water fish would die in fresh, only one type of fish would survive. Yet....?" - Frank Monaco

48. Why does the omnipotent, omnipresent God need help from man or angels to spread his word or do acts? - IG [Note: Some say God doesn't need help. But apparently he does.] - IG

49. How did Jesus ascend to Heaven in the Flesh when Paul says that flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of Heaven? (1 Cor.15:50) - IG [Note: Some say, well Paul said that and not Jesus. Yet they quote Paul when it suits there purposes.]

50. If God wants us to live right and choose "the good," why did he create evil? (Isaiah 45:6,7) Not to mention he already knows which people are not going to choose "the good" so why create those people in the first place? It seems that many people are born to go to Hell. - IG ON HELL
1.) God is all-knowing.
2.) Before I was born God knew I wouldn?t believe in him.
3.) I was born to go to Hell.
(Sure you may say I have a choice, but I think I`ve proven already that I really don`t. I`m simply fulfilling the will of God by being an atheist aren`t I? If I`m not, I shouldn`t exist: For God would have known that before I was created that I wouldn`t believe in him.)

51. I hear Christians all the time speaking of a spiritual war between Heaven and Hell, if this is true does God have limitations of power? Man only conducts wars because of our limitations of power and foresight. God has both all-power and all-knowledge, no reason for war of any kind. - IG

52. The Bible is full of phrases beginning with, "and the lord saw". Didn't he know before hand? - IG

53. How can a psychologist condone belief in something not proven to exist, when people are put into mental institutions on a daily basis for the same thing? i.e. aliens, fairies, imaginary people (Multiple Personality Disorders..)? - Dan Denton [Note: I'm sure that some of the pious believe that they are improperly placed there as well Dan. Smiling]

54. If Christians say they know God exists and that he will work miracles, what do they need faith for? Faith is not knowing. - IG

55. Brain, or shall I say, body transplants, will eventually be possible, where would the soul be then? Where is the soul? - IG

56. If God really wants us to know him, why doesn't he place the knowledge of him in our minds at birth? The same way many theists believe that God implants our sense of right and wrong in us a right birth. - IG

57. If God was Jesus' father (not Joseph), then why is Jesus' family tree traced through Joseph? -- Cyndy Hammond

58. What image of God was man made from? Couldn't have been a moral one or physical one. - IG [Note: One would suspect that an image of God would be perfect and cannot sin. Oops.]

59. Why can't God appear before everyone at the same time? Everyone in the world would then "know" he exists and not have solely "believe". And please, don't say he already tried that. Surely a God knows exactly what to do to convince a measly human of his existence. - IG

60. According to the New Testament Matthew 5:17 says "Do not suppose that I have come to abolish the Law and the prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to complete. I tell you this: so long as heaven and earth endure, not a letter, not a stroke, will disappear from the Law until all that must happen has Happened." So since Jesus has not returned the "Law" is still in effect, so why aren't we still burning witches, stoning adulterers and disobedient children, killing homosexuals, ostracizing people that work on the Sabbath (nurses, doctors etc.), flinging blood onto the horns of the alter, pulling off the heads of small birds, and don't forget human sacrifice to God (Leviticus 27 P.28 )? -- Sheila L. Chambers

61. If there is freewill in Heaven yet everyone has chosen good and is happy, isn't that proof that God could have made us with freewill, choosing good ( God ) and still being happy on Earth? - Dennis Hendrix [Note: In other words, evil didn't have to exist after all. Hey wait, even in Heaven apparently, evil can exist. At least for a short while. Satan became evil and was in heaven. Apparently he even had enough time to form an Army against God. Wow. Maybe Heaven won't be as peaceful as many believe.]

62. Why does God have a plan? Man is limited in power so we make plans because we are not all-knowing nor all-powerful. If God has a plan, isn't he reduced to a mere finite being? - IG

63. How could the all-merciful/loving God watch billions of his children burn over and over again for eternity? - IG [Note: Of course this is geared to those that believe in a fiery hell. I am well aware that not all Christians believe in a fiery Hell.]

64. Before reading and writing were invented (5000BC), on what basis did God use to judge the people who died before the Hebrew and Greek text (BIBLE) were written? -- [Note: They are all roasting in Hell. Smiling]

65. Many Christians tell me that I will "burn in hell". If I have a soul, how can a soul burn? Aren't souls non-physical entities? - IG [Note: Some Christians groups believe that you will be given new bodies after judgement. However, if true, what's the significance of a spirit in the first place?]

66. How can one hold to the barbaric belief that something has to DIE in order to appease a god for a bad deed? -- Nickolaus Wing [Note: Because an old book says so Nick.]

67. Why does SIDS (Sudden Infant Death Syndrome) occur? Why would God allow a baby to live for such a short period of time? Why not just let them not be born in the first place? -- Terry Clark [Note: This actually happened to a friend of mine. Not even God himself could console her.]

68. If Jesus was nailed and died on Friday evening, and walked out of the tomb on Sunday morning, where's the 3rd NIGHT he predicted? Per Matthew 12:40: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. -

69. Many Christians claim that hell is merely existence outside of God ?s presence (C.S. Lewis among others). If this is the case, then Jesus could not have descended into hell (being God Himself). As a result, are you sure your sins are forgiven? - Byron Bultsma

70. Ten to twenty percent of all women who discover they are pregnant suffer a miscarriage. Also, it is estimated that anywhere from 14 to 50 percent of all pregnancies end in miscarriage. Seeing this is all part of God 's plan, does this make God the world's number one abortion provider? - Jim

71. What if, when you get to Heaven, you saw God causing pain and suffering out of anger or for the purpose of entertaining himself. What if he required people in heaven to praise and worship him non-stop even to the point of causing his worshipers discomfort, pain and boredom. What if, when he was bored, angry, or jealous, he would create natural disasters to make himself feel better. Would you still follow him? - Fernando [Note: Of course they would Fernando, many people followed Hitler out of fear as well.]

72. In Leviticus, the bible condemns homosexuality as an "abomination", giving some Christians a reason to hate, harass, torture and kill gays and even picket their funderals with " God hates fags" signs. In the same book of the bible the eating of shellfish is equally an "abomination". Are these Christians planning to go after the patrons of Red Lobster next? - [Note: hee-hee, that's all I can say. Jewish Law states that eating Fish without scales is an abomination and thus the Shark is one among the list. However, sharks do have scales, Placoid scales, one of the many reasons why a shark is called a Fish .]

73. Christians will tell you that if a baby dies it goes to heaven. Why then are they so against abortion? All the child is being deprived of is the opportunity to go to hell. Either that or god expects unborn fetuses to accept Jesus. -

74. If one could prove to you incontrovertibly that Jesus and God were all human fabrications would still believe? And why? - LOGICnREASON [Note: If you say yes. Then you are not concerned with the truth, you simply WANT to believe; and if you WANT to believe, indeed, there is nothing anyone can tell you..]

75. It is often said that God allows evil because one could not meaningfully appreciate good without experiencing its opposite. Why is it necessary to experience the opposite of something in order to appreciate it? Must I experience death in order to meaningfully appreciate life? -excidius

76. Bible literalists want you to believe that God's Word in the Bible is meant to be taken literally. If this is the case, why was Jesus fond of explaining things in parable and metaphor? Was Jesus literally discussing the biology of mustard seeds, or was the mustard seed parable meant to be interpreted figuratively as faith? -excidius

77. Liberal Christians say some parts of the Bible are literally true, but much else is to be interpreted figuratively as allegory. How do you know which is which? What distinguishing criteria are used? How can you be certain "God" is a literal and not a figurative concept? -excidius

78. Consciousness is the result of a physical brain, how could God being metaphysical be said to be conscious or sentient without having a brain? - Mindless

79. Considering how Leviticus is considered old law, and that Christians do not obey it anymore, why do they always use it to defend homosexuality being an "abomination"? -Bohorquez

80. If God is omnipotent and he has a plan ... then why did he not create the universe as it will be one second after the plan has succeeded? Who or what prevented him from doing that? - Timothy Campbell (http://www.tc123.com)

81. The large majority of people who have ever existed could not have learned of the Bible or Jesus Christ. And many people afterwards have found other religions or no religion at all to be more convincing, sometimes while being very virtuous. Do all these people really deserve eternal torment because of that? -- lpetrich

82. The above arguments also apply among different sects of Christianity, many of which state that most others are not True Christianity. -- lpetrich

83. Is it reasonable for the Creator and Ruler of such a vast Universe to be preoccupied with the sexuality of a species living on a tiny little planet? -- lpetrich

84. If the Christian god was all loving and all knowing why did he let religious figures such as Mohammed or Gautama Budda be born, knowing that they would mislead people from the 'true' faith and trick the majority of the world's population into burning forever in hell (in fact, if Islam didn't start, most of the middle east would probably be Christian). It would simple to use the Holy Spirit to guide them to Jesus and spread the 'true' faith. If the Holy Spirit exits, it certainly isn't doing it's job!

85. If one is obliged to follow all the teachings of the bible then why is engaging in homosexuality or adultery any worse than "suffering a witch to live", "muzzling the ox that treadeth the corn", "reaping the corners of thy field", "marring the corners of they beard", "plowing with an oxen and an ass", "hating thy brother in thy heart" or "eating frogs, shellfish and eels" ?

86. Exactly how did the alleged worldwide flood kill off all the world's sea creatures? How does one go about drowning a fish? -- Steever

87. Why did this alleged god create humans as an animal form of life that gets sick and dies and experiences pain and has a limited mind when 'it' could have created humans as a form of pure energy or of some indestructible material or whatever, and was totally ?sinless? and had ?pure? thought? If a god was omnipotent 'it' could have easily have done this. --AI

88. If a god is omnipotent how did 'it' fail to foresee that Satan would turn against 'it'? --AI

89. What is a god supposedly made of? --AI

This list was compiled by the Infidel Guy with submissions from many members of the atheist community.

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lisp777
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There is a difference. But

There is a difference. But more importantly, the only part of my post that you found necessary to remark on was an offhand remark that the word atemporal maybe is slightly off mark? Not exactly the main point I tried to get across.


Matt Churchman
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3 Questions dealing with the same issue

'72. In Leviticus, the bible condemns homosexuality as an "abomination", giving some Christians a reason to hate, harass, torture and kill gays and even picket their funderals with " God hates fags" signs. In the same book of the bible the eating of shellfish is equally an "abomination". Are these Christians planning to go after the patrons of Red Lobster next?'

Great question! If you find a Christian who can answer this question intelligently you be sure to let me know. Some theologians teach that the word 'abonimation' in this context is reserved most commonly for ritual wrongs. In this case if God was trying to build a nation out of Israel at the time then this might account for why homosexuality was condemned (procreation being a necessary part of building a nation). There is another story in the OT that has a man being killed for 'spilling his seed'. Apparently sperm was a very valuable commodity at this time in history.

79. Considering how Leviticus is considered old law, and that Christians do not obey it anymore, why do they always use it to defend homosexuality being an "abomination"? -Bohorquez

I don't know. They would be better off using the words of the apostle Paul on this matter. Even still there is some uncertainty about how we ought to interpret these passages given the broader context of this letter.  Not to say that they are completley wrong in their conclusions (not to say that they are right either of course) but it is clearly not something about which one might claim absolute certainty ( and definately not something that justifies hatred). Regardless, to elevate this one sin above anothers seems to be unjustafiable and is most likely based in a pre-existing negative attitude toward homosexuality. 

85. If one is obliged to follow all the teachings of the bible then why is engaging in homosexuality or adultery any worse than "suffering a witch to live", "muzzling the ox that treadeth the corn", "reaping the corners of thy field", "marring the corners of they beard", "plowing with an oxen and an ass", "hating thy brother in thy heart" or "eating frogs, shellfish and eels" ? "

Good point. I hope Christians are reading this thread. You might get the argument that some "sins" have more severe consequences than others and for this reason homosexuality is something that should be openly rejected by the Christian community. In my humble opinion I would say that 'hating thy brother in thy heart' would almost definately have more severe consequences than any of the listed scriptures. Plus, it is easier to judge people based on things that are more easily identifable (actions) especially when you are not prone to engaging in those actions. Few Christians would get behind a "God hates those who hate thy brother in thy hearts" campaign because too many of us would be on the other side of the protest. We (humanity in general - not just 'religious people') would rather point out the speck in one anothers eye than remove the plank from our own.

" The time has come to clean up your own backyard before you go knocking on your neighbours door" - House of Pain

 


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Wow ..... Dialog. Who ain't

Wow ..... Dialog. Who ain't a messiah ?             

Sapient is a clever buddha. I suggest "tracking" his posts from the beginning of RRS .... Lots of buddhas here at RRS ....


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Hello. I am wondering if you

Hello. I am wondering if you had questions for theists that aren't of the Abrahamic faiths. So far I could only find two that could be applied to other religions, the spirits and souls questions.


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Quote:Great question! If you

Quote:
Great question! If you find a Christian who can answer this question intelligently you be sure to let me know. Some theologians teach that the word 'abonimation' in this context is reserved most commonly for ritual wrongs. In this case if God was trying to build a nation out of Israel at the time then this might account for why homosexuality was condemned (procreation being a necessary part of building a nation). There is another story in the OT that has a man being killed for 'spilling his seed'. Apparently sperm was a very valuable commodity at this time in history.
I've heard this argument before in a documentary on Christian tollerance I believe, and I find it unsatisfactory.  If building a nation is the goal, and mass reproduction is needed to grow a large population, how is killing two men (sperm factories) not counter productive?  This was before single celled organisms were invented by a heretic ex clergy man, so it's unlikely any tribal Isrealite would have known the danger of double dipping, so there's no reason a sperm factory could not have simply pulled out of a man ass and dumped another load into a baby recepticle.

"I've yet to witness circumstance successfully manipulated through the babbling of ritualistic nonsense to an imaginary deity." -- me (josh)

If god can do anything, can he make a hot dog so big even he can't eat all of it?


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Ciarin wrote:Hello. I am

Ciarin wrote:

Hello. I am wondering if you had questions for theists that aren't of the Abrahamic faiths. So far I could only find two that could be applied to other religions, the spirits and souls questions.

Welcome to the forum Ciarin.  My top question for any theist is: what do you believe, and why do you believe it?  Once one gets an answer to that, questions come up a lot easier.  Islam and Christianity are the biggest religions in the regions where most member are, so that is why most of the questions and arguments throughout the site focus on them.

 

"I've yet to witness circumstance successfully manipulated through the babbling of ritualistic nonsense to an imaginary deity." -- me (josh)

If god can do anything, can he make a hot dog so big even he can't eat all of it?


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I'm pagan(specifically

I'm pagan(specifically Anglo-Saxon Heathen). I believe in it because I agree with it's philosophy and traditions.


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Ciarin wrote:I'm

Ciarin wrote:

I'm pagan(specifically Anglo-Saxon Heathen). I believe in it because I agree with it's philosophy and traditions.

Care to elaborate?  I'm not familiar with Anglo-Saxon Heathen.  Does that revolve around Wodan and Thor and fate and destiny and things like that?  What gods\dieties\figures do you believe in and why?  How does the philosophy you like depend on said characters?


 

"I've yet to witness circumstance successfully manipulated through the babbling of ritualistic nonsense to an imaginary deity." -- me (josh)

If god can do anything, can he make a hot dog so big even he can't eat all of it?


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How much do you want me to

How much do you want me to elaborate? I don't want to bore you hehe. If you want you can check out the organization that I'm a member of, GFS. The site gives some good explanations of things. The religion has gods from the Anglo-Saxon Pantheon, similar to the Norse, which would include Woden, Thunor(Thor), etc. But we are somewhat panentheistic. I wouldn't say the philosophy is dependant on the Gods, but I think the stories of the Gods has much influence, as do the other Sagas.


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answers to some of the questions

 

2. If Gen 3:24 is true, why hasn't anyone found the Cherubims and the " flaming sword which turned every way"?
 
 
Honestly whose been looking? Has there been any major expeditions to find this? How big was the Garden of Eden?
Can it be said that every location has been discovered? Just recently they found a secret jungle with new species of animals that have never
seen humans or any signs of humans in Indonesia. If you think about it the world is full of mysteries, Biblical and non-biblical that have yet to be discovered. Doesn't mean they are not there, they are being discovered all the time.
 
Here is the scripture
gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
 
Whose to say God kept it there? He really only needed to keep Adam and Eve out for awhile. The Earth has changed a lot since then. 
 
 
3. It's been proven that modern humans originated from Africa. Yet, the Adam and Eve story claims the first Humans lived in a garden in Eden, near 4 rivers. ( Most of which no one can find). One of these rivers mentioned is the Euphrates, which runs through Iraq, Syria and a portion of Turkey. What's the truth? Did man come out of Africa or near the EuphratesRiver? - The Infidel Guy
 
Modern scientists of anyone's day have never been wrong? Also it has been marked as a theory and not a fact as of yet because there are always other variables htey have not determined and many other scientists who don't believe that theory. Even now you have scientists fighting over global warming, something happening or not happening in the hear and now.   It is a good theory. It is interesting that in some cases science caught up to the Bible. Earth round, Earth hanging on nothing, hygiene practices. And even if scientists claim life started in Africa and the Bible says somewhere in Middle East it's not too far off from Africa and is it possible scientists can be off a few thousand miles?
 
4. When the believer gets to Heaven, how can Heaven be utter bliss when people they love and care about are burning in Hell ? - The Infidel Guy - [Note: Some say God erases your memories of them, but if God erases your memory, you as Mr. Joe /Jane Smoe ceases to exist.]
 
and
 
6. a) Why would God create a place such as hell to torture sinners forever when he foreknew who would disappoint him? - IG [Note: Some say you have a choice, but this misses the point]
 
 
This one I'd like to answer. The word actually used in the Bible is Hades and Sheol. Hell itself simply means place of concealment and not that fiery place of torment. The idea given in the Bible is the punishment is simply death.
 
Notice Gen 3:3 Eve repeated what would happen if she ate from the tree
 
"But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."
 
Didn’t mention hell.
 
The Serpent then lied to her syaing in Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Serpent didn’t say nothing about burning in hell…
 
Gen 2:17 was where the actual commandment and consequence were stated
 
Gen 2:17 "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
God didn’t mention anything about hell.
 
Romans reiterate the punishment
 
Romans 6:23: Wages of sin is death.
Paul didn’t say they’d burn in hell.
 
In the Bible what did it mean to die?
 
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.
 
Here the Bible tells us what Adam's condition would be when he died. He would return back to the dust from which he came. He would be nothing. Just dirt.
 
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
 
Adam was dirt before and then he became a living soul. Notice became a soul, did not have a soul.   And before that soul came to be he was nothing but dirt.
 
Interesting side bar. I think it is interesting to say Adam was made of dirt. Science has proven that we do come from trace elements in the ground, carbon, oxygen, etc. And when we die we decompose and turn back into those trace elements once again.   I thought it interesting the Bible was very accurate about what happens to the body when we die and what humans are made of. You'd think a silly book like hte Bible would say we were made of God's tears or angel beams or farts or something, but no, it says we were made directly from the Earth.
 
So far the Bible tells Adam and Eve they would simply die. Nothing mentioned about burning in torment forever. The words Hell, Hades and Sheol meant they would go to man's common grave or an area of nothingness.
 
Some in Christianity say "well the body dies but the soul lives on"
 
We already learned that Adam did not have a soul but was the living soul. He was the living being.
 
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
 
The soul dies. It's not something that lives on. So no burning in Hell for you Atheists.
 
Other "Christians" talk about Gehenna and how Jesus said people would burn in Gehenna.
 
The thing is these people are thinking like the Pagans which Christians adopted many of their teachings from the festivals of solstice to basic doctrine such as triad gods and immortality of the sould. Already proved the soul dies from the Bible.
 
When Jesus was talking about Gehenna you have to think, not like a "pagan" but like a Jew. Gehenna was a garbage dump that's fires were always burning. You think of something that is burned with fire completely. It means it is utterly destroyed.    If your house burned down to the ground could you bring that house back using the same materials? No it's gone, it's just ashes. In other words when people were in Gehenna they were simply destroyed forever with no hope of ever coming back. Not burning forever alive.
 
So no actual burning hell to burn in. That is just a "pagan" concept adopted by later "CHristians" during the time they were adopting everything else the pagans had to offer.
 
When you die your are dead. Plain and simple. Science confirms, atheists agree, bible says it would happen.
 
 
6 b . If God hates sin so much, why create Adam and Eve when he knew they'd sin? The only conclusion I can come up with, if Yaweh exists, is that he wanted sin to enter the world.]
 
 
God did not create Adam and Eve as sinful creatures.   They were perfect and set a law for them to give them the option to eat or not. Yahweh has the ability to foresee things but just because you have the ability to do something does not mean you exercise that ability ALL the time.    If a dude can bench 300 lbs does he go around lifting everything he can pickup that’s 300 lbs?   No, he has the ability but he uses it only when he needs to or wants to.     He could have foreseen Adam and Eve sinning if he wanted to but chose to see what they would do instead. You have abilities and you can choose to use them or not use them right? So what makes God any different if he exists?
 
 
7. "God is all merciful," we hear quite often. Wouldn't it be more merciful of God to simply snap sinners out of existence rather than send them to hell? Or better yet, since he's all-knowing, not allow them to be born at all? - IG
ON GOD'S LOVE & HELL
1.) God's love is superlative.
2.) God's love of man exceeds man's love of self.
3.) Man's love of self prohibits torture.
4.) Considering God's greater love for us, Hell (eternal torture) is illogical.

 
 
Read above post and you’ll see that is pretty much exactly what he is going to do.   As humans we think it is wrong to torture someone no matter what the crime is, we have laws against torture as human beings. Why Christians would believe God would burn people in hell forever for a life of badness is beyond me. As posted above Hell is man’s common grave, the soul dies and turns to dust because it sins.   Plain and simple logic from the Scriptures. Hell is Pagan and pre Christian religious concept.
 
In fact side note which I always thought interesting.
God told Adam and Eve if they ate from the tree they would die, turn back into dust or nothingness from where they came, right?
 
The “serpent” told Eve
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5: For God doth know that in the day ye eat therof, then you eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as the gods, knowing good and evil.
 
Funny side note: Most religions believe that when you die, your soul lives on and you really do not die but become a spirit godlike creature. Almost every religion believes that. Sounds like the original lie given through the ages echoing through mankinds religions.  Bible says differently, you die, you turn to dust.
 
12. I have often heard from many believers that even Satan has a presence in the church, which is why even in church people can still have impure thoughts. If Satan can find his way in the church, how do Christians know that Satan didn't find his way into the Bible and twist the whole book? After all, men did vote on which books would make the Holy Bible.  
 
Satan has long used the Church. The Bible in Acts says apostates would take over teaching various lies and doctrines.    Even in the Bible where Satan tempts Jesus, Satan can be seen quoting the Bible. Many scriptures are taken out of context and warped to various beliefs. See Hell doctrine above and how the Bible denies a Hell but most Christians believe in Hell.    Even the fact that many Christians have included Pagan rituals in their church services by simply slapping God’s name on it shows you that Satan has in fact warped the ideas behind the book. Most of the Atheists on this sight’s ideas on Christianity actually come from this false Christianity which is a hybrid pagan judeo Christian religion.
 
17. Why didn't God just kill Adam and Eve after the Fall and start from scratch? Actually, if God is all-knowing wouldn't he know that man would need to be killed eventually anyway, (the biblical flood)? Why create Adam and Eve at all?
 
God’s purpose was for Adam’s children to inherit the Earth and his purpose has not changed despite Adam’s disobedience. His purpose stayed the same and he gives Adam’s offspring the opportunity to obey or disobey him.
 
When Adam and Eve disobeyed God by breaking the one rule they had they were in essence showing disrespect for God’s right to rule. Saying “WE don’t need you to tell us what to do, we can make our own decisions.” The Serpent was implying the same thing.  
 
At that point of disobedience they deserved to die. They were basically traitors and even in our society it’s legal to put to death a traitor.   But instead of simply destroying them right out he let them have their trial. He gave them the opportunity and man in general to see how well they can do on their own.   Honestly we have done nothing but mess up the world we live in and as the bible says “MAN has dominated man to his injury”   He’s giving Satan and humans the ability to answer that question. On top of that as seen in Job, Satan says the only reason people even serve God is because of what he gives them.    He made an implication and God was going to clear his name and allow the condemned to have their time to prove their case.   Even in our society we believe a criminal should have his day of court whether he is caught red handed or not. He is even given options to appeal court decisions.   That is basically why he did not destroy them in the first place and has allowed many opportunities for appeal. In other words God has allowed several thousand years to pass and man has tried out almost every form of government there is and they have in the long run all but failed.   When you read the Bible it says that Satan runs all governments today. So in essence God is giving ample opportunity for Satan to prove his point as the accused.
 
21. God struck down the Tower of Babel angry at the intent of the people that built them, if this is the case, many of the great pyramids ( which are bigger than any ziggurat) around the world should be rubble also, yet many still stand today. Were not the Egyptians and many other ancient pyramid builders reaching toward God /The Heavens? –
 
I actually really love this part of the Bible because it makes a connection to all religions and myths around the world.   Think about it. Right after the Flood this great man Nimrod gathered the people into building this great Ziggurat. In other words right after the Flood this man is setting up an entire movement or in fact an entire religion. If you study Nimrod outside the Bible you will see links to Gilgamesh and even Mithra (Christmas is Mithra’s Birthday) In other words this man setup a religion opposite of God, where he was in fact like a God.   These people then had their languages confused and went throughout the Earth. Funny thing about this,   these people would have taken stories of the Flood with them, they would have taken stories about these sons of God coming to Earth with them and who knows what other beliefs they would have took with them plus maybe other cultural things such as how to build Ziggurats.
The interesting part is most cultures and lands have a story of a giant Flood, from Mayan to Sumerian. Almost every culture talks about gods coming to Earth from Mayan to Greek, echos a lot of the story found in the Bible. Even the Bible said these sons of God were men of fame and legends.   Even the Pyramids from Egypt, Babylon, Europe to Mayan temples all have uncanny similarities
 
 
25. Why would an all-powerful god become flesh in order to sacrifice himself to himself so that his creation might escape the wrath of himself. Couldn't god, in his infinite wisdom, come up with something a little more efficient? - Omphaloskeptic2@aol.com ON THE BODY OF CHRIST
1.) God?s flesh was known as Jesus.
2.) Flesh cannot enter into Heaven (according to Paul)
3.) God is no longer Jesus.
4.) Jesus doesn?t exist.

(Note: Many at this point will state that the spirit lives on so therefore Jesus lives. This really depends on what you believe about Jesus. Is Jesus the son of God or God in flesh? If Jesus is merely the son there is no problem.However, if Jesus ?is? God himself, we do. You see, Jesus is called Jesus because of the attribute of Flesh. If Jesus = God (who is spirit) then the entity known as Jesus ceases to exist. The flesh/body of Jesus, no longer exists and the spirit of God is still the unchanging spirit of God. No Jesus at that point. The Flesh, called Jesus, is dead.)
 
Like you said Jesus is the son of God.  Trinity gods come from Babylonish doctrines. Most Christian religions would say that ain’t so but if you allow pagan rituals such as Winter and Summer Solstice and fertility goddess rituals from Astarte in your “Christian” religion, what else have you actually let in?
 
How many scriptures do you have to show people that Jesus was God’s son?
I mean on numerous occasions Jesus said “ Father is Greater than I”
Jesus said “ I don’t do things of my own initiative but do the will of my father”
Jesus even told Mary upon being resurrected “ I am going to your God and MY God”
 
They say Jesus was God manifested in the flesh.
But the apostles themselves when Jesus was already in heaven wrote the books of the Gospels and even when it wasn’t a gospel account of Jesus life the apostle Paul said things like
 
“The head of every woman is the man, in turn the head of the man is the Christ, in turn the head of Christs (already supposedly in heaven at this point) is GOD!”
 
I mean when God himself is quoted in the Bible on 3 different occasions written in 4 different books as saying, “ This is MY SON the beloved” I mean there is really no getting through these people. If God himself could not convince them then who can?
 
38. Everytime I go to a funeral the preacher and guests always say that " God " has called that person to Heaven or they say, " God said it was time to come home", or some such variation. If God is calling these people "home", why are we putting the murderers of these victims in prison? How can we punish a man or woman for doing God's will? - IG  
 
It was not God’s will. That is stuff preachers teach along with hellfire and immortality of the soul.    The bible plainly and clearly states Ecclesiastes 9:11 Time and unforeseen occurrences befall us all. Things just happen whether it is an accident, sickness or old age.
 
When preachers say that they are really blaming God for something he did not do.
 
44. Did Adam have nipples? If so, how did he acquire them? In fact, why would God give "later man" nipples at all? They serve no purpose other than lactation. Some say pleasure. Where is that in Genesis exactly? All mammals have nipples as well, are theirs pleasureful for them too? Many men don't find their nipples pleasurable at all. - IG
 
What do you have against nipples? Nipples are awesome! Can you imagine though women only having nipples, our chest would be kind of blank don’t you think.
 
45. How did Adam and Eve know it was wrong to disobey God if they hadn't eaten of the tree of knowledge (of good and evil) yet? You can't blame them if they didn't know.
 
Okay you have a big scary voice that tells you DON”T eat from the TREE, I created you, gave you everything including life and all I ask is don’t eat from the tree you know to do the opposite means to disobey and you are breaking the rule. Adam and Eve made a descision to go against what they were told not to do.    They know. They were naked not stupid.
55. Brain, or shall I say, body transplants, will eventually be possible, where would the soul be then? Where is the soul?
 
Like I said before in the upper posts. You die. Your soul is your life. If they transplant your brain in another body then you are technically still alive arent’ you?
 
77. Liberal Christians say some parts of the Bible are literally true, but much else is to be interpreted figuratively as allegory. How do you know which is which? What distinguishing criteria are used? How can you be certain "God" is a literal and not a figurative concept?
 
Just like you would reading any other book. I can read a book and know by the context or what is being said whether he is using an illustration, hyperbole, metaphor, etc.
 
79. Considering how Leviticus is considered old law, and that Christians do not obey it anymore, why do they always use it to defend homosexuality being an "abomination"?
 
Old law in Leviticus but was reiterated by Paul in Christian Greek Scriptures as well. So not the only place to say God hates the act of homosexuality. 
 
81. The large majority of people who have ever existed could not have learned of the Bible or Jesus Christ. And many people afterwards have found other religions or no religion at all to be more convincing, sometimes while being very virtuous. Do all these people really deserve eternal torment because of that? –
 
First of all there is no hell, only hades, death, sheol, man’s common grave. Wages of sin is death. These individuals are not burning in hell but have died and turned to dust. Their soul is dead however God said there will be a resurrection of Righteous and Unrighteous.   God often left room for ignorance. Even in the mosaic  law he wrote some stipulations for ignorance.
 
89. What is a god supposedly made of?

 Who really knows.   We know he is a source of extreme energy of what true state we don’t know, we have barely even left our solar system with robots and discovered 1/1000000000000000 of the stuff that is out there.    The whole law behind energy is that it is neither created nor destroyed only changed. Obviously for the Universe to be created there was a form of preexisting energy and boom everything came to be through that energy. Who is to really say that energy that created everything was not sentient.  We know so little about our universe and we have so much to discover. What we truly know scientifically about anything is really insignificant to what scientists will know 200-300 years from now.
 
I hope you enjoyed reading the answers to some of these questions. Some overlapped so I didn’t answer them and others I didn’t answer because I either didn’t really feel like it or did not have time to write about it, but I hope you have enjoyed this little novel and please  feel free to ask me any questions you’d like.
 
Thanks for reading

{FIXED - aiia}
 
 


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Paragraphs, puh-lease! I'm

Paragraphs, puh-lease!

 

I'm 'reading massive blocks of text' challenged.


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Thanks for posting .... Fix

Thanks for posting .... Fix with the EDIT BUTTON , below your post , paragraphs needed ....


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I tried fixing to paragraphs

but for some reason it won't let me fix it. 


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flog wrote:but for some

flog wrote:
but for some reason it won't let me fix it. 
Yeah. Once a post is replied to or quoted, it becomes "fixed". Which is a bit of a bummer in this case, and adds that special touch of irony when someone asks that a post be edited for clarity by replying to that post.


 

"Anyone can repress a woman, but you need 'dictated' scriptures to feel you're really right in repressing her. In the same way, homophobes thrive everywhere. But you must feel you've got scripture on your side to come up with the tedious 'Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' style arguments instead of just recognising that some people are different." - Douglas Murray


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FIXED

FIXED


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flog, I did enjoy reading

flog, I did enjoy reading that (thanks for fixing aiia) I've always felt rather proud of our ancient ancestors in those times of little science who wrote all the world "religious" source books. My gripe as you mention is the "church" or interpreters and spin doctors of those texts. Even the fairly simple ideas of buddhism are perverted by exaggerations of nutty superstitious folklore.

If you haven't yet, treat yourself to rrs Rook, and the other rrs authors in the left list, a bit down from the top.

Do you have a favorite "wisdom" mentor or few? Alan Watts is one of many, of mine.


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aiia wrote:FIXEDYay! Go

aiia wrote:
FIXED
Yay! Go moderator power!


 


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Quote:I hope you enjoyed

Quote:

I hope you enjoyed reading the answers to some of these questions. Some overlapped so I didn’t answer them and others I didn’t answer because I either didn’t really feel like it or did not have time to write about it, but I hope you have enjoyed this little novel and please  feel free to ask me any questions you’d like.
 

 

Hi flog, and thanks for putting so much effort into your post, which indeed was enjoyable reading (though maybe not quite in the way you meant it).

 

I have only one question - can you write it again, this time leaving out answers comprised of or based on mere assertions, without evidence or even the hope of evidence to substantiate them? I imagine it shouldn't take you too long.

 

PS - I love the bit about god being a source of extreme energy, not that we know what that energy is or anything. Just about sums up the rest of the post.

 

I would rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy


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I had fun answering them

Really I had fun answering them, whether it changed anyone's mind or not was not really my intention.  Alot of the questions asked though, especially about a God of love burning people in hell,  God killing children cause he wanted a new angel in heaven and Jesus being God are based on "Christians" who probably never read their bible.

It's funny to me the differance between what most "Christians" believe and what the Bible really teaches. 

For example in my post I showed clear Bible simple logic that the Bible does not teach hellfire doctrine and that when you die you are simply dead, turned back into dust.  You are a soul, you don't have a soul.    The fact of the matter is not all Christians believe like the mainstream Christians who in all honesty often times don't even know there own Bible. 

80% of the Atheists on this sight know the Bible more than most Christians and that is pretty sad.    At the same time though many of the Atheists views are based off Christianity that in essense is not the Christianity in the Bible.

Christinaity today is full of pagan rituals and doctrines.    If they celebrate any hoidays then automatically they've included pagan rituals in their worship of God.  And we all know from the Bible that God hated when the Jews did it, what makes them think he likes it now.

Early Christians in the first century were persecuted alot due to them being differant in their preaching work, the fact that they were neutral polictically and various other reasons.  Today Christains are right in the middle of polictics.  We've seen since around 200 A.D when the Catholic Church started to gain power, they became very polictical.   

You have Christians outside soldiers' funerals condemning gay people and saying silly things like God brought devestation on New Orleans through Katrina.  What?  I mean seriously that had nothing to do with God.  God did not make a city 9-10 feet under a lake.  He did not make the people stay in New Orleans.  Like the Bible says in Eccl that I mentioned earlier.  "Time and unforseen occurences befall us all."  Stuff just happens.     Today Christians go nuts protesting outside of funerals and spreading hate.  Honestly it's not your business if someone is gay.  You are not paid to judge.  The bible condemns those things, yes, but it does not say to go out and violently and stupidly protest those things.  You think of the early Christians they lived in times when immorality was rampant.  All they did was preach from house to house and let folks make their descision on the matter. 

Jesus even mentioned in the Bible that true "Christians" would have love among themselves.  Well you know most are not true Christians when they are quick to go blow others up looking for "weapons of nothing".    I remember hearing a preacher on Fox say that we should retaliate and blow these people up.    Seriously?  I think of the times that Catholicism had its opportunity to show itself as the true Christianity but time after time how it failed.  You think of incidents like in Rhwanda where 80-90% of the country are Catholics and how they easily chopped up, raped and mutilated their "fellow" brothers and sisters in the faith.  

My point is not to try to persuade you to become a Christian or believe but know that most Christians don't actually teach what is in the Bible. 

In fact like Ghandi said

"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ."

As far as the energy is concerned at the end of my post. 

Atheists and Christians alike can agree and it is scientific fact that a great amount of energy was required to create the universe.  That energy was always existing and ever existing.  Remember energy can neither be created nor destroyed only transitions to another form of energy.    Scientific fact is that there was energy that caused the Universe to come into existence. 

Personally I prefer to believe that energy was creative and intelligent but that is just me.  I have other reasons for believing but that's for another day.  Smiling 

 PS " Alan Watts is one of many, of mine"  Never heard of Alan Watts but going to check it out.  Thanks for the link.


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Fair dukes to you, flog.

Fair dukes to you, flog. You've obviously placed enough distance between yourself and christian doctrine to retain a good deal of rationality and humanity about you. I'll refrain from commenting on your bible comments since I agree with the main trust of them (that the contents often contradict current christian doctrine) and really only disagree with your inevitable cherry-picking of "favourite bits", but then all christians are really forced into doing exactly that given the huge spread of motives, intents, doctrinal and theological stances which the combined book contains. That is hardly your fault.

 

The "energy" thing is a moot point. You might have your reasons, as you say, for ascribing an "intelligence" to the behaviour of physics. Whatever they are they are not rooted in observation of a scientific nature, but then that's a hurdle you have yet to clear it seems and I wouldn't want to interrupt your stride when you're already making such great headway in the right direction.

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im just curious. all the

im just curious. all the atheist that quote the Bible quite often, have you read the entire Bible? or just picking the passages out that you want to use, or because possibly, they seem to help your arguements? honest question not trying to be smart. im new around here=] maybe you guys have read it thru and thru several times just asking...


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truebeliever

I believe in God with every fiber of my being so I am what you'd call a theists myself.  I have actually found many atheists who for whatever reason are as versed in the Bible as any Sunday preacher.  Many I've come to know have read it and studied it more than most Christians.  I have to give them props for that.

I think most Atheists I have come across either

a) simply don't believe in anything and simply don't care and whatever scientists throw at them is cool with them.  You equivalvent to in a name only Christians

B) others looking for answers and studied thoroughly to find the answers, did not find it in religion at all and moved to science which the evidence made more sense to them and like the religions books they studied they really studied science as well, they are well learned

C) others started with a very strong belief in God but as they grew up found answers on their own and things did not seem to fit right and Atheism made more sense

D) Others simply feel there is not God based on how bad the world is and how hypocritical and evil religion is in the first place.

e) this group just thought to themselves, okay giants, demons, spirits, angels and monsters, rising from the dead, walking on water WTF? sounds like fairytales to me.

Out of most of those groups many of them took a serious look at all religions and teachings and just like any of us on the search they found what they were looking for in the logics of science.  At least that is what some of my atheists buddies have told me. 


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flog, I guessed you for a

flog, I guessed you for a non fundy cool theist. My pen name is a bit confusing, I am an atheist materialist. Anyhow here's a bit from atheist "world religions" teacher Alan Watts, which I've been often posting here, especially to theists. See him in youtube, etc. Some way cool and not as cool vids. I need to sort out my favorites ....

A.Watts - "The religion of Jesus was that he knew he was a son of God, and the phrase "son of " means "of the nature of," so that a son of God is an individual who realizes that he is, and always has been, one with God. "I and the Father are one." ......  and, "Let this mind be in you." that is to say, let the same kind of [rational] consciousness be in you that was in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ knew he was God." [ you and everyone are christ too, 100% god too. ]

"Wake up" [said a buddha] and find out eventually who you also really are [ god ]. In our culture of course, they'll say you're crazy or you're blasphemous, and they'll either put you in jail or in the nut house (which is the same thing). But if you wake up in India and tell your friends and relations, "My goodness, I've just discovered that I'm God," they'll laugh and say, "Oh, congratulations, at last you found out." ~ Alan Watts ~~~

  Here's a site "Atheists for Jesus" that I found helpful a few yrs back, not that I agreed with all of it. Many, as I, call christians, followers of Saul Paul, "Paulines" ....

http://www.atheists-for-jesus.com/

  .... 2 vids I post a lot,

Carl Sagan - "Pale Blue Dot" , 3 min
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p86BPM1GV8M

"Wisdom of the Buddha" , 8 min
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTsb-woP3jI

  And an essay, the famous Nietzsche's, The Antichrist, by Travis J. Denneson
 > Part 4 , IV. The Buddhistic Jesus?
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/travis_denneson/antichrist.html

  Good luck to ya, seeking wisdom .... a "saving" message,  All is One !   

 


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trubeliever wrote:im just

trubeliever wrote:

im just curious. all the atheist that quote the Bible quite often, have you read the entire Bible? or just picking the passages out that you want to use, or because possibly, they seem to help your arguements? honest question not trying to be smart. im new around here=] maybe you guys have read it thru and thru several times just asking...

If you lurk around here for awhile, you are sure to see some lines to the effect of, "I'm fond of saying the Bible made me an atheist" or "Read it, we need more atheists and nothing will get you there faster..."

Well, I've read the Bible through cover to cover(skipping most of the geneologies of course), Genesis to The Revelation twice, (King James, The Living) the first time when I was 10, and it was a major first step in becoming an atheist.

 

"I've yet to witness circumstance successfully manipulated through the babbling of ritualistic nonsense to an imaginary deity." -- me (josh)

If god can do anything, can he make a hot dog so big even he can't eat all of it?


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the fact that people claim

the fact that people claim that the bible led them to become an atheist is almost amusing to me. no christian should admit to understanding the entire bible, if they do call them a liar on the spot! thats ridiculous... i as a christian believe in a spiritual world and believe that everything of the spirit cannot be understood by the flesh. the bible does not contradict itself. just because someone doesnt understand it doesnt mean it contradicts itself. i have looked at many different verses that atheist claim to be contradictory, none however have been contradictory to me once looked at correctly in context and studied in depth. ie. looking at greek and hebrew words/translations. now i am not saying that there are not difficult verses in the bible that are hard to explain, yes there are absolutely... as a believer, i believe one must interpret and read scripture w/ the holy spirit, our finite minds cannot possibly comprehend every single verse in the bible. thats why as a christian i can read a verse 1000 times and on the 1001 time, get something different from it. but to say that the bible leads people to become atheist doesnt make sense to me. thats like me saying i read the koran so i became a christian lol, little bit of humor... also please explain a little bit more on what u mean or how reading the bible led u to become an atheist.

thanks,

-trubeliever


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Yep, xains don't really much

Yep, xains don't really much know what they believe, so they call their 'awe', god. Funny, I am atheist and I spell god , g-awe-d. So far so good, now please xains, don't make dogma shit up and claim it as some truth. When they asked caring buddha about god, he laughed and asked why all the wasted time day dreaming? He suggested we focus on love, the oneness, and the NOW, and abandon ALL superstition. Yeah, the silly folklore messed with many of the SIMPLE buddha teachings too. Reincarnation for example just means all energy matter is recycling .....

LOL, good luck realizing you are gawed, all is ONE. No Master, No Idol. We are Stardust ....   

Sweet, Joni Mitchell .....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2AQYJOxxic


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trubeliever wrote:the fact

trubeliever wrote:

the fact that people claim that the bible led them to become an atheist is almost amusing to me. no christian should admit to understanding the entire bible, if they do call them a liar on the spot! thats ridiculous... i as a christian believe in a spiritual world and believe that everything of the spirit cannot be understood by the flesh. the bible does not contradict itself. just because someone doesnt understand it doesnt mean it contradicts itself. i have looked at many different verses that atheist claim to be contradictory, none however have been contradictory to me once looked at correctly in context and studied in depth. ie. looking at greek and hebrew words/translations. now i am not saying that there are not difficult verses in the bible that are hard to explain, yes there are absolutely... as a believer, i believe one must interpret and read scripture w/ the holy spirit, our finite minds cannot possibly comprehend every single verse in the bible. thats why as a christian i can read a verse 1000 times and on the 1001 time, get something different from it. but to say that the bible leads people to become atheist doesnt make sense to me. thats like me saying i read the koran so i became a christian lol, little bit of humor... also please explain a little bit more on what u mean or how reading the bible led u to become an atheist.

thanks,

-trubeliever

In other words, you have only read the typical cherry picked lines and don't know what you're talking about, yet know you're supposed to defend the Buybull anyway?


 

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hazindu wrote:trubeliever

hazindu wrote:

trubeliever wrote:

the fact that people claim that the bible led them to become an atheist is almost amusing to me. no christian should admit to understanding the entire bible, if they do call them a liar on the spot! thats ridiculous... i as a christian believe in a spiritual world and believe that everything of the spirit cannot be understood by the flesh. the bible does not contradict itself. just because someone doesnt understand it doesnt mean it contradicts itself. i have looked at many different verses that atheist claim to be contradictory, none however have been contradictory to me once looked at correctly in context and studied in depth. ie. looking at greek and hebrew words/translations. now i am not saying that there are not difficult verses in the bible that are hard to explain, yes there are absolutely... as a believer, i believe one must interpret and read scripture w/ the holy spirit, our finite minds cannot possibly comprehend every single verse in the bible. thats why as a christian i can read a verse 1000 times and on the 1001 time, get something different from it. but to say that the bible leads people to become atheist doesnt make sense to me. thats like me saying i read the koran so i became a christian lol, little bit of humor... also please explain a little bit more on what u mean or how reading the bible led u to become an atheist.

thanks,

-trubeliever

In other words, you have only read the typical cherry picked lines and don't know what you're talking about, yet know you're supposed to defend the Buybull anyway?

 

 

And he's an independent thinker also - God and his pastor told him he was.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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hazindu iv read the bible

hazindu iv read the bible through and through, but when u want to actually respond to my statements then ill respond


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trubeliever wrote:the fact

trubeliever wrote:

the fact that people claim that the bible led them to become an atheist is almost amusing to me.

Many parts of the buybull were amusing to me..
Quote:
no christian should admit to understanding the entire bible, if they do call them a liar on the spot! thats ridiculous...
admit, or claim?
Quote:
i as a christian believe in a spiritual world and believe that everything of the spirit cannot be understood by the flesh.
I was told similar things, but have yet to see anything that would make me even suspect there is a word of truth to that.
Quote:
the bible does not contradict itself.
Bullshit!
Quote:
just because someone doesnt understand it doesnt mean it contradicts itself. i have looked at many different verses that atheist claim to be contradictory, none however have been contradictory to me once looked at correctly in context and studied in depth. ie. looking at greek and hebrew words/translations.
Care to give an example?  That sounds pretty hollow.  I'll give you credit for not linking to one of those appologetic sites that works from the presuposition that the buybull is correct and consistent to the presuposition that the buybull is correct and consistent forsaking probabilities for mere possibilities along the way, however I've yet to see a competent argument in favor of the bible's credibility, and telling me the infalible word of god is confusing and and requires much speculative interpretation neither serves you or your religion.
Quote:
now i am not saying that there are not difficult verses in the bible that are hard to explain, yes there are absolutely... as a believer, i believe one must interpret and read scripture w/ the holy spirit, our finite minds cannot possibly comprehend every single verse in the bible.
uh what?  Are all the different translations wrong because the people doing the translations couldn't comprehend every single word?  Does the bibble have any value at all if it can't be comprehended?  How the bloody hell do you read with the holy spirit? 
Quote:
thats why as a christian i can read a verse 1000 times and on the 1001 time, get something different from it. but to say that the bible leads people to become atheist doesnt make sense to me.
Is it really that difficult to understand?  I was raised to be a xian, and told that the buybull is our holy book.  Upon reading the "holy" book I realized that it is full of shit and in many ways contradictory to what I was taught as a baptist.
Quote:
thats like me saying i read the koran so i became a christian lol,
Well, rejecting Islam after reading the koran may well happen, but the odds of choosing another religion in its place based on that don't seem to good to me.
Quote:
also please explain a little bit more on what u mean or how reading the bible led u to become an atheist.
Again, upon realizing that my parents religion is comprised of ancient fairy tales not unlike countless other mythologies, I rejected it.

 

btw, is Jacob really strong enough to hold god an not let him go untill receiving a blessing?

"I've yet to witness circumstance successfully manipulated through the babbling of ritualistic nonsense to an imaginary deity." -- me (josh)

If god can do anything, can he make a hot dog so big even he can't eat all of it?


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1.show me a scripture that

1.show me a scripture that you believe contradicts another part of the bible and i will do my best to show you why it doesnt.

2.they should never claim to understand the entire bible, sorry miss use of that word earlier.

3.when i say you can read a verse 1000 times and on the 1001 time, i mean that in the sense like this. Take phil 4:13 for example, i can do all things through him who gives me strength. i can read that many times but lets say i one day read it when im going through a tough time in my life, that verse my really truly hit me that i can and he is there to help me. thats what i meant.

4.what part of the bible was amusing to you?

5.people can translate books and verses from different languages, doesnt mean that they understand what is being said or meant by them.


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also i would like to address

also i would like to address another argument that was orginally presented.

"If Jesus fulfilled the OT so well, why didnt the jews accept Him?"

Easy, they had their own qualifications that they believe the messaih would meet. qualifications that were not in the bilbe. for instance, he would be a military leader. not in the bible easy to explain this argument, there were several others, this is just one that i could think of off the top of my head.

 

The other one i would like to address is the agrument about why would god create adam and eve if he knew they would disappoint him and sin?

I would like to ask whoever asks this question, do you want to have children someday? now wait lets think, lemme tell you your children will upset you disappoint you and most likely lie to you. Do you still want to have children? 99% still say yes. i believe this explains itself quite sufficiently.

 


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trubeliever wrote:also i

trubeliever wrote:

also i would like to address another argument that was orginally presented.

"If Jesus fulfilled the OT so well, why didnt the jews accept Him?"

Easy, they had their own qualifications that they believe the messaih would meet. qualifications that were not in the bilbe. for instance, he would be a military leader. not in the bible easy to explain this argument, there were several others, this is just one that i could think of off the top of my head.

 

The other one i would like to address is the agrument about why would god create adam and eve if he knew they would disappoint him and sin?

I would like to ask whoever asks this question, do you want to have children someday? now wait lets think, lemme tell you your children will upset you disappoint you and most likely lie to you. Do you still want to have children? 99% still say yes. i believe this explains itself quite sufficiently.

 

Sorry, the qualifications they are seeking are biblical also. There is a case for Two Messiahs - a Davidic messiah (Jesus never called himself the son of David - others did). the Bible has Jesus referring to himself as the son of man, which can be a messianic designation differing from the son of David or simply a recognition as being part of the human race. PJTS can be more helpful than I here.

As to your idea about children - would your children have disappointed you if:

1. you knew they would disobey you?

2. their "disobedience" was part of your elaborate plan?

3. you set up the situation where "disobedience" was the only option?

In this case, disobedience would be obedience.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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trubeliever wrote:1.show me

trubeliever wrote:


1.show me a scripture that you believe contradicts another part of the bible and i will do my best to show you why it doesnt.

2.they should never claim to understand the entire bible, sorry miss use of that word earlier.

3.when i say you can read a verse 1000 times and on the 1001 time, i mean that in the sense like this. Take phil 4:13 for example, i can do all things through him who gives me strength. i can read that many times but lets say i one day read it when im going through a tough time in my life, that verse my really truly hit me that i can and he is there to help me. thats what i meant.

4.what part of the bible was amusing to you?

5.people can translate books and verses from different languages, doesnt mean that they understand what is being said or meant by them.

1.  Ok, I'll give you a few I wrote down a long time ago, if you want more, there should be thread full of them somewhere in the forum.

"And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.(Exodus 33:11)

 

"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.  And the LORD said, Behold, [there is] a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:  And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:  And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen."(Exodus 33:20 – 23)


"The soul that sinneth, it shall die.  The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."(Ezekiel 18:20)

 

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;"(Exodus 20:5)

" And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.  So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.  And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."(Genesis 1:25 – 28)

 

"And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.  And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof."(Genesis 2:18)

 

"And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man."(Genesis 2:21 – 22)

2. I figured that's what you meant, but then, what's the point of the bible?  Is it meant to be missinterpreted?

3.  Does that only apply to the bible?

4.  I'm surprised you need to ask.  Pretty much all of the rediculous crap in Genesis: the talking snake with legs, Cains fear of being killed by no one since he and his parents were the only people around yet he needed a mark of god's protection,  The flood story in which two of all animals, or 7 of every 'clean' animal were loaded into a wooden boat that sailed around the world waiting for a flood to receed, and all plant life to grow back instantly while the pyramids were built by mer slaves laboring to the tune of a crab singing "under da sea!", then Noah the supposed only good man alive lands in Turkey and distributes all animal to their homes then lies drunk and naked and sells his daughter or some shit like that, the tower of babel story in which the gods are legitamately threatend by a tower being built in low lands instead of on top a mountain.

The rest of the bible also has a few laughs such as Balaam's talking slayn donkey.  God getting out wrestled by Jacob is amusing.  There are countless more absurdities that I found humorous, but I'll stop here.

5. ok...

"I've yet to witness circumstance successfully manipulated through the babbling of ritualistic nonsense to an imaginary deity." -- me (josh)

If god can do anything, can he make a hot dog so big even he can't eat all of it?


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trubeliever wrote:The other

trubeliever wrote:
The other one i would like to address is the agrument about why would god create adam and eve if he knew they would disappoint him and sin?

I would like to ask whoever asks this question, do you want to have children someday? now wait lets think, lemme tell you your children will upset you disappoint you and most likely lie to you. Do you still want to have children? 99% still say yes. i believe this explains itself quite sufficiently.

I believe that question is meant for xians who believe their god to be omni-everything you can think of: all powerful, all knowing, all present.  As a bible reader, you of course know that god is not omni-anything.  It is possible to hide from him, and he is as strong as a unicorn which I'd guess is about 4.7 chuck norris power.  While that is pretty god damn impressive, it is still an infintecimal of omnipotent.

Human parents accept that there will be hardships in child rearing, but are still often overcome by natural instincts to reproduce.  However, human parents only know that there will be difficulties, and not what exactly those will entail.  An omnipotent god, on the other hand, would literally have all knowledge and all control of every detail, therefore cannot ever be surprised.  Given that the god of Hebrew mythology were\is omnipotent (which we bible reader know not to be true) he would have planned everything that has or will ever happened down to the finest detail including the sins of people.  Effectively, god screwed up, not humans who never had a choice.

edit: never mind, jcgadfly beat me to it.

 

"I've yet to witness circumstance successfully manipulated through the babbling of ritualistic nonsense to an imaginary deity." -- me (josh)

If god can do anything, can he make a hot dog so big even he can't eat all of it?


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sitting in english IV. i

sitting in english IV. i didnt have time to respond last night, but i will later today, thanks for the verses. ill look into them and let you know what i think. but one thing i can say is that i dont think that human parents do know the exact things that their children will do. they will disobey you, they will lie to you. that is pretty specific. as for God, he gave us the same chance, the just as we give our children, sure god knows what we will do before we do it, doesnt mean that he made us or that we didnt choose to do it. god gave us a free will and we choose to upset him or disappoint him, but thank god all my faults were taken care of at the cross and i have cover and under grace not under the law, and i dont have to be sin conscious all i need to be is jesus conscious and is all works out, bell just rang be back later


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trubeliever wrote:sitting in

trubeliever wrote:

sitting in english IV. i didnt have time to respond last night, but i will later today, thanks for the verses. ill look into them and let you know what i think. but one thing i can say is that i dont think that human parents do know the exact things that their children will do. they will disobey you, they will lie to you. that is pretty specific. as for God, he gave us the same chance, the just as we give our children, sure god knows what we will do before we do it, doesnt mean that he made us or that we didnt choose to do it. god gave us a free will and we choose to upset him or disappoint him, but thank god all my faults were taken care of at the cross and i have cover and under grace not under the law, and i dont have to be sin conscious all i need to be is jesus conscious and is all works out, bell just rang be back later

Do you think you made a free choice when you buy a Coke from a machine that has nothing but Coke in it?

The "Fall of Man" story is similar.  If you buy the story, your God knew that the only way he could put his plan into motion was to have humanity "fall" so that he could "save" them by sending himself on a three day weekend and calling it a "sacrifice".

And then you take the out that Paul gave you. All you have to do is believe in christ and you can do anything you want becaus the commandments and the words of Jesus no longer apply to you.

And you Christians accuse atheists of moral relativism.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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If the parent/child analogy

If the parent/child analogy is to apply then an important point has to be made.

 

Now I don't know what kind of a parent truebeliever intends to be (or is), but while it is certainly true that children occasionally lie and disobey it is no good parent's ambition that they should continue to do so without thinking fully of the consequences.

 

By "consequences" I don't mean necessarily punishment for doing wrong (in fact I don't find the phrase "punishment" useful at all as a parent), but the ramifications of their specific actions. This can impact negatively on them, and just as likely on others. It can also sometimes have no serious ramifications at all, but then the lesson I feel obliged to teach my children has always been to be honest, at least honest enough to admit that at the time of the lie or the act of disobedience just how much thought they actually put into contemplating those ramifications, and how accurate were they when and if they did.

 

Compare this to the "god" analogy mentioned above.

 

There you have a "parent" who washes their hands of their responsibility to compassionately educate their children in how to avoid the pitfalls of living dishonestly or without a care for others. In fact if the christian god ethic is to be believed it entails a father who stands back and lets his children fall into traps which he has helped set for them and then begins a sequence of punishments (involving killing them on occasion) which in fact punish the victims of the trap and never the agents he supposedly employed to help him enact such an evil on his own children. Later he sends a "son" with a completely different line of advice that apparently advocates the very compassion he himself is incapable of showing, though this - if pauline canon is to be believed - is not important anyway since one only has to "believe" Paul's interpretation of the purpose in sending the son, not necessarily anything that son specifically said. Throughout this deployment of yet another trap to lure people into inconsiderate and dangerously divisive thinking the "parent" goes into a self-imposed silence and breaks off all communication with his children.

 

This is parenting?

 

When I compare this to the many decent parents I have known, who have raised decent people themselves in the process of parenting, I have to ask myself just how blind, stupid, ignorant or just plain evil one has to be to even contemplate for a moment that their efforts are secondary to the parenting model presented by this "higher power". That "model" is simply a form of control freakery, not parenting, and can only hold an appeal to willing subjects of such inhumane treatment or wannabe control freaks themselves. Only someone that ill, or that evil, could dare present the judaeo-christian "god" as a "parent", even in analogy.

 

For all the pithy and apposite sayings accredited to Jesus it took a playwright to produce what to me is the epitome of principle and which I have passed on to those for whom I was responsible for developing principle. If followed, it effectively encapsulates all the best that the christian code can offer (a mere fraction of that which it offers), just as it equally effectively destroys that which the control-freakery endemic in christian history and christian ethical philosophy sought and still seeks to establish - blind obedience achieved through threat and fear. Better yet it places its adherent streets ahead of the christian god in terms of intelligence, ethics and honesty - and the realisation that this is possible is a true liberation for many people:

 

"This above all: to thine own self be true, and it must follow, as the night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man."

 

Would that christians (and especially those who could imagine their "god" as a parent) were capable of understanding what it really means.

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Nordmann, thanks, that was

Nordmann, thanks, that was good, worth emailing to my few fundy friends. Is a book coming? 


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Nordmann wrote:If the

Nordmann wrote:

If the parent/child analogy is to apply then an important point has to be made.

 

Now I don't know what kind of a parent truebeliever intends to be (or is), but while it is certainly true that children occasionally lie and disobey it is no good parent's ambition that they should continue to do so without thinking fully of the consequences.

 

By "consequences" I don't mean necessarily punishment for doing wrong (in fact I don't find the phrase "punishment" useful at all as a parent), but the ramifications of their specific actions. This can impact negatively on them, and just as likely on others. It can also sometimes have no serious ramifications at all, but then the lesson I feel obliged to teach my children has always been to be honest, at least honest enough to admit that at the time of the lie or the act of disobedience just how much thought they actually put into contemplating those ramifications, and how accurate were they when and if they did.

 

Compare this to the "god" analogy mentioned above.

 

There you have a "parent" who washes their hands of their responsibility to compassionately educate their children in how to avoid the pitfalls of living dishonestly or without a care for others. In fact if the christian god ethic is to be believed it entails a father who stands back and lets his children fall into traps which he has helped set for them and then begins a sequence of punishments (involving killing them on occasion) which in fact punish the victims of the trap and never the agents he supposedly employed to help him enact such an evil on his own children. Later he sends a "son" with a completely different line of advice that apparently advocates the very compassion he himself is incapable of showing, though this - if pauline canon is to be believed - is not important anyway since one only has to "believe" Paul's interpretation of the purpose in sending the son, not necessarily anything that son specifically said. Throughout this deployment of yet another trap to lure people into inconsiderate and dangerously divisive thinking the "parent" goes into a self-imposed silence and breaks off all communication with his children.

 

This is parenting?

 

When I compare this to the many decent parents I have known, who have raised decent people themselves in the process of parenting, I have to ask myself just how blind, stupid, ignorant or just plain evil one has to be to even contemplate for a moment that their efforts are secondary to the parenting model presented by this "higher power". That "model" is simply a form of control freakery, not parenting, and can only hold an appeal to willing subjects of such inhumane treatment or wannabe control freaks themselves. Only someone that ill, or that evil, could dare present the judaeo-christian "god" as a "parent", even in analogy.

 

For all the pithy and apposite sayings accredited to Jesus it took a playwright to produce what to me is the epitome of principle and which I have passed on to those for whom I was responsible for developing principle. If followed, it effectively encapsulates all the best that the christian code can offer (a mere fraction of that which it offers), just as it equally effectively destroys that which the control-freakery endemic in christian history and christian ethical philosophy sought and still seeks to establish - blind obedience achieved through threat and fear. Better yet it places its adherent streets ahead of the christian god in terms of intelligence, ethics and honesty - and the realisation that this is possible is a true liberation for many people:

 

"This above all: to thine own self be true, and it must follow, as the night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man."

 

Would that christians (and especially those who could imagine their "god" as a parent) were capable of understanding what it really means.

you made the statement that if the christian god ethic is to be believed it entails a father who sits back while his children fall into traps and that he has helped set those traps.

this would be a good argument if we didnt have a free will. but for me, i cant count the number of times he has saved me from something i could have done or been through that i should ihave been involved in or experienced. so in fact, he doesnt just let us fall, we choose to fall, we all have a way out of every temptation and a free will but because of our sin nature we are bound to fail sometimes. however, you also mentioned that god punishes sin. god punished and judge people in the old testament and yes occasionally killed them, but that was the old testament, they didnt have christ they didnt have the salvation and sacrifice that we have as new testament believers. dont miss understand me im not discrediting things in the old testament. a good way to think about it is this, all of our sin was punished in the body of jesus, the sacrifice that he was. god treated him like he was the worlds greatest sinner the second he died. god is not an unjust god, he doesnt punish the same sin twice. it was all punished and taken for us at the cross and in the person of jesus.


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God is you, do your 40 days,

God is you, do your 40 days, listen to you, not HE, some other invention of separatism ..... nothing is seprate, all is ONE. Separatism , religiously speaking is devil shit, wrong thinking.


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dont have a clue what u just

dont have a clue what u just said...


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Bummer , read your bible

Bummer , read your bible NT again alone, that Jesus ....

Nothing is separate, you and god are one. SIMPLE. Jesus did his 40 days .... your turn.


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Quote:you made the statement

Quote:

you made the statement that if the christian god ethic is to be believed it entails a father who sits back while his children fall into traps and that he has helped set those traps.

this would be a good argument if we didnt have a free will. but for me, i cant count the number of times he has saved me from something i could have done or been through that i should ihave been involved in or experienced. so in fact, he doesnt just let us fall, we choose to fall, we all have a way out of every temptation and a free will but because of our sin nature we are bound to fail sometimes. however, you also mentioned that god punishes sin. god punished and judge people in the old testament and yes occasionally killed them, but that was the old testament, they didnt have christ they didnt have the salvation and sacrifice that we have as new testament believers. dont miss understand me im not discrediting things in the old testament. a good way to think about it is this, all of our sin was punished in the body of jesus, the sacrifice that he was. god treated him like he was the worlds greatest sinner the second he died. god is not an unjust god, he doesnt punish the same sin twice. it was all punished and taken for us at the cross and in the person of jesus.

 

You're obsessed with the notion of punishment, and moreover attempting to justify punishment for "sins" which the parent in your own analogy walked his "children" into committing. In psychology there is a term for people like you, and the last situation they would ever be encouraged to find themselves in is that of a parent.

 

The very notion, having stood by and allowed one's own children to behave selfishly and ignorantly to the point that they have inflicted harm on themselves, that one then excuses one's negligence on the grounds that the child had the choice not to behave in that manner, describes the actions of a bully, or a control freak, or a psychopath, or a sadist, or an ignoramus, or most of all a moral coward, or indeed any dreadful and irresponsible combination of these traits. If it is the action of a parent then it takes on proportions of cruelty that are repugnant to every idea of decency we possess.

 

This was your analogy after all, truebeliever, and that you should make it at all, let alone defend it in a follow-up post (by illustrating how a father can make a scapegoat of his "son" in the hope that it shocks the rest of the family into obedience), simply marks you out as an admirer of, if not actually in possession of, a fair amount of the traits I mentioned above.

 

To me, and I imagine to every thinking and responsible parent in the world, you and your notions are disgusting, even if they are rooted in woeful ignorance of what passes for responsible behaviour. In this day and age there is no excuse for such ignorance, and thankfully little sadists like you (and I can be left in doubt from your posts that this is what you are), who shelter behind the veneer of respectability which they hope religion affords them, are increasingly finding themselves exposed for what they are as that veneer crumbles, a process which the fundamentalists - ironically enough - are helping to accelerate.

 

Either get help, or get an education in how humanitarian principles operate. But do it fast.

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Nordmann wrote:You're

Nordmann wrote:

You're obsessed with the notion of punishment, and moreover attempting to justify punishment for "sins" which the parent in your own analogy walked his "children" into committing. In psychology there is a term for people like you, and the last situation they would ever be encouraged to find themselves in is that of a parent.

 

This is interesting in that christians don't have to worry about hell (uless you're Catholic). If I raise my kids and they know Jesus from an early age, its just normal day to day stuff. Hell is really a non issue for christians. Wouldnt God want us to feel that way. Shouldnt you be calling christians out on not worrying about hell enough assuming we really believe it.

Although I can't defend the historicity of any scriptures, it seems that without any moral compass we slowly imperceptably evolve from where we know we want to be. If a person imagines God takes an interest in them, thats not so bad. There is something about the Love story of the scriptures that is compelling. Maybe its just for psychological reasons that we hold on to the idea that God loves us through the atonement. But that idea really appears to change peoples lives for the better. Noone will ever be able to define God. God will always be unproven. But using the bible as an approximation for the truth about God is really not the greatest evil in the world. I would call it a necessary evil. We need the law to know whats right, and we need love to have the motivation to do whats right. Suppose that doesnt come from our parents. Where is it going to come from?

 

 

 


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"Suppose that doesn't come

"Suppose that doesn't come from our parents. Where is it going to come from?" ~~~

  Science explains, and it's not a make believe, "nature" defying religious god thingy. The good in the entire bible can be written in a few short sentences. All is ONE, is a most simple jesus message summary.


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Quote: ... it seems that

Quote:

 

... it seems that without any moral compass we slowly imperceptably evolve from where we know we want to be ...

 

 

If by "moral compass" you mean the ability to indicate the direction of the capacity to behave morally according to a current definition, contemporary social standards and mores, then this is a contradiction in terms. As long as everyone in a society is "evolving" morally in the same general direction then the necessity of a compass is minimal.

 

History would suggest that this is exactly in fact what happens, and despite religion rather than because of it. Societies seem remarkably uniform in what is considered (and has always apparently been considered) basic moral imperatives. Murder and theft unsanctioned by any authority would seem to be two of these. The process from there on is one of a gradual refinement of the implications of holding these imperatives. This refinement can be expressed religiously, but it is most effective (and most capable of progression) when it is expressed secularly. Laws are the result. Historically religious ethical code has tended to be too inflexible and dogmatic to allow the rate of progression a society would otherwise pursue when used as a basis of law-making, or else too ethereal and nebulous in logic and application to do much other than be discredited and deemed irrelevant by social advance.

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Nordmann wrote: If by

Nordmann wrote:

 If by "moral compass" you mean the ability to indicate the direction of the capacity to behave morally according to a current definition, contemporary social standards and mores, then this is a contradiction in terms. As long as everyone in a society is "evolving" morally in the same general direction then the necessity of a compass is minimal.

 

Quote:

I agree with that. Its just that I dont think just because society evolves and accepts it, that it is always beneficial for society.


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Only society can "evolve and

Only society can "evolve and accept" it. There is no one else to do so. So far society seems to be progressing its views on morality in a generally healthy direction, race-survival-wise. I'm not too sure about those societies however where there is a mistaken delusion enjoyed by an inordinately high number of people that whatever morality they adhere to is god-given. They're the ones with the least ability to progress, or even adapt, and many of them are the source of much danger to the race's survival.

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JustAnotherBeliever wrote:We

JustAnotherBeliever wrote:

We need the law to know whats right, and we need love to have the motivation to do whats right. Suppose that doesnt come from our parents. Where is it going to come from?

There are quite a number of threads on this forum where we've discussed the naturalistic mechanisms that give rise to morality without any need for God. At its most fundamental level, it's simple self-interest: You do what's right by other people so other people will do right by you. Feel free to seek out the more in-depth discussions at your leisure.

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid