Questions about God... theists answer these!

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Questions about God... theists answer these!

List of questions about God, religion and the supernatural have been compiled by IG over the years as well as some interesting ones by readers.

1. If Jesus fulfilled all the OT prophecies so well, why didn't the Jews recognize him as the messiah? - Francois Tremblay

2. If Gen 3:24 is true, why hasn't anyone found the Cherubims and the " flaming sword which turned every way"?

3. It's been proven that modern humans originated from Africa. Yet, the Adam and Eve story claims the first Humans lived in a garden in Eden, near 4 rivers. ( Most of which no one can find). One of these rivers mentioned is the Euphrates, which runs through Iraq, Syria and a portion of Turkey. What's the truth? Did man come out of Africa or near the Euphrates River? - The Infidel Guy

4. When the believer gets to Heaven, how can Heaven be utter bliss when people they love and care about are burning in Hell ? - The Infidel Guy - [Note: Some say God erases your memories of them, but if God erases your memory, you as Mr. Joe /Jane Smoe ceases to exist.]

5. How can a God have emotions, i.e. jealousy, anger, sadness, love, etc., if he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent? Emotional states are reactionary for the most part. How can God react to us if he is all-knowing and has a divine plan? - IG [Note: Indeed, many religious texts display their gods this way . Listen to the An Emotional Godshow.]
6. Why would God create a place such as hell to torture sinners forever when he foreknew who would disappoint him? - IG [Note: Some say you have a choice, but this misses the point. If God hates sin so much, why create Adam and Eve when he knew they'd sin? The only conclusion I can come up with, if Yaweh exists, is that he wanted sin to enter the world.]

7. "God is all merciful," we hear quite often. Wouldn't it be more merciful of God to simply snap sinners out of existence rather than send them to hell? Or better yet, since he's all-knowing, not allow them to be born at all? - IG
ON GOD'S LOVE & HELL
1.) God's love is superlative.
2.) God's love of man exceeds man's love of self.
3.) Man's love of self prohibits torture.
4.) Considering God's greater love for us, Hell (eternal torture) is illogical.

8. Muslims are supposed to pray 5 times a day towards Mecca. Each prayer includes a variety of ritualism and posturing. If a muslim astronaut were to land on Mars. Prayer to Mecca would be ritualistically impossible due to the rotation of Earth and Mars. Are Muslims stuck here in Earth? IG [Note: Since this was first posted, a Muslim astronaut was faced with this very dilemma. The authoritative clergy informed him to pray as he normally would. I see this no where in the Koran. You see? Religions must change, or die out. It's interesting to note that, in the Koran, the moon is believed to be in the lowest Heaven, the level for those that barely made it to Heaven. Surah 71:15-16. One problem, no man can supposedly get to Heaven until they die. Yet, we've been to the moon. Our satellites beyond that.]

9. Why haven't we seen God reattach severed heads, restore someone who was burned alive or regrow amputated limbs? Surely these would be miracles difficult to deny. - Adam Majors and IG [Note: The typical answer is that man doesn't dictate God's actions. The conundrum here however is that, if God wants us to "know" him, then surely feats such as those mentioned above would be happening all over the world. Until they do, I'll remain an atheist.]

10. Why does God entrust the spreading of 'His' word to sinners? Why doesn't he do it himself? - IG [Note: Surely God would have known that not everyone would be convinced by the reality[sic] of his Bible. If God loves us so much, we are all going to Heaven. If God knew that I would be an atheist, and he doesn't like atheists, he shouldn't have allowed me to come into existence. But he did. Therefore, I must be serving the will of God, for I exist. Smiling]

11. In II Kings 2-23/24 we read about God sending 2 she-bears to attack children for calling the prophet Elisa bald, which he was, the bears killed 42 of the children. Was this a good thing to do? -- Brandon and IG[Note: I have heard some argue that the boys were a gang. So?! I didn't read anywhere in that passage where they laid a finger on the guy . Also, what kind of bears are these that can kill 42 kids? Super Bears? Surely the kids had to be running away.]

12. I have often heard from many believers that even Satan has a presence in the church, which is why even in church people can still have impure thoughts. If Satan can find his way in the church, how do Christians know that Satan didn't find his way into the Bible and twist the whole book? After all, men did vote on which books would make the Holy Bible. - The Infidel Guy

13. Why did God allow Lot and his daughters to escape from Sodom and Gomorra when he destroyed it only to later have Lot and his daughters engage in incestuous fornication. (Genesis 19:30-36) - Disillusioned [Note: To have intercourse with daddy dearest of course.]

14. Genesis 1:28-29 shows that man and all the animals were first created herbivorous. Most young-earth Christians (ones that believes the earth is less than 10,000 years old) say that the fall of man resulted in carnivorous animals ( hence death of animals). So, why did God punish the animal kingdom, making animals kill and devour each other because of man's mistake? Or, if you're an old-earth Christian (one that accepts that animals existed on earth for billions of years before man came on the scene) then how come fossils show carnivorous animals existed before man? - http://www.caseagainstfaith.com/contact.htm.

15. Many Christians believe that God is a thinking being, that he solves problems and makes a way for them when troubles come. Does God Think? If God is thinking, did he know his thoughts before he thought them? If so, again, where is his freewill and how is God thinking at all if everything seems to be one uncontrollable action/thoughts. - The Infidel Guy [Note: I'd say a God cannot think at all. To do so, would strip him of omniscience. Thinking is a temporal process.] ON GOD'S ATEMPORALITY
1.) God, an atemporal being, created the Universe.
2.) Creation is a temporal processes because X cannot cause Y to come into being unless X existed temporally prior to Y.
3.) If God existed prior to the creation of the Universe he is a temporal being.
4.) Since God is atemporal, God cannot be the creator the Universe.
[Note: I guess I should also note here that a timeless being would be without the proposition of past, and future. But to be omniscient, God must know the past and future. Hence a God that is atemporal and omniscient cannot logically exist. Smiling]

16. I have often heard that faith is all that is neccessary to believe in God and accept the Bible as true. If this is true aren't all supernatural beliefs true since they also require "faith"? - IG ON FAITH
1.) A prerequisite to believe in a Faith is faith.
2.) Having faith is all that is required to accept a Faith (belief) as true.
3.) All Faiths are true.
[Note: Of course all Faiths aren`t true, but this is the only logical conclusion that can be drawn from a person that states that, "Faith" is how one knows God.]

17. Why didn't God just kill Adam and Eve after the Fall and start from scratch? Actually, if God is all-knowing wouldn't he know that man would need to be killed eventually anyway, (the biblical flood)? Why create Adam and Eve at all? - and ON THE GARDEN OF EDEN
1.) God is omniscient (all-knowing).
2.) God knew that before he created man that they would eat of the tree of knowledge.
3.) God placed the tree of knowledge in the Garden anyway.
4.) God wanted sin to enter the world.
[Note: If God didn`t want sin to enter the world, why create Adam and Eve at all? He knew what would happen. Why place the forbidden trees in the Garden in the first place?]

18. If a spirit is non-physical but the human body is physical, how does a spirit stay in our bodies? - IG ON SPIRITS
1.) Spirits are not physical entities.
2.) Brains are physical entities.
3.) Past experiences are stored in our physical brains, we call that, Memory..
4.) Injury can damage portions of the physical brain that store memory and can alter or erase memories completely.
5.) If human spirits exist... after death, spirits can have no memory.
[Note: Some will say the spirit stores physical memories as well, but if true, the spirit would have to be physical at least to a degree. How could a non-physical spirit store, physical memories?]

19. Does God know his own future decisions? If God is all-knowing he actually shouldn't have any decisions to make at all. Nor can he choose anything over something else. For that would mean that he is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. In fact, he can't even think if this is the case. Since he can't DO anything, he might as well not exist. - IG ON GOD'S IMMUTABILITY - Unchangingness
1. If God exists, then he is immutable.
2. If God exists, then he is the creator of the universe.
3. An immutable being cannot at one time have an intention and then at a later time not have that intention.
4. For any being to create anything, prior to the creation he must have had the intention to create it, but at a later time, after the creation, no longer have the intention to create it.
5. Thus, it is impossible for an immutable being to have created anything (from 3 and 4).
6. Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1, 2, and 5) - Theodore M. Drange

20. If God is all-knowing, how could he be disappointed in His creation? -- [Note: Indeed, wouldn't God know that before the creation of our Universe what creatures would disappoint him? That being the case why create those creatures at all? Also, in knowing absolutely the behavior of humans before creation, God cannot be disappointed either... for this world is exactly as he has planned it to be. If it's not, why create us at all?]

21. God struck down the Tower of Babel angry at the intent of the people that built them, if this is the case, many of the great pyramids ( which are bigger than any ziggurat) around the world should be rubble also, yet many still stand today. Were not the Egyptians and many other ancient pyramid builders reaching toward God /The Heavens? - IG [Note: In actuality, many of the Pharaoh's believed that, via their pyramids, they would become God's themselves.]

22. In the watchmaker analogy, a watch is used to show us intelligent design and compares that to the Universe as evidence of design. We know watches are designed because we have past experience with watches, as well as with other man made objects. My question is: What Universe is the Intelligent Design proponent using to compare this Universe with to draw such an analogy? What God did he see create a Universe? - IG

23. Why did God flood the earth to remove evil? It didn't work! Evil came right back, God should have known that would happen! So why did He bother? - PhineasBg [Note: A good example of how quickly sin returned, was Noah getting drunk just after they discovered land.]

24. If the garden of Eden was a perfect paradise as xians claim, then why did Eve even want to eat the fruit? Wouldn't a perfect place provide everything a person would want or desire and thus she would want nothing? - keyser soze [Note: Why were the trees there in the first place? Of course they love to throw the serpent into the equation. But ummm..who let the serpent into the Garden?... and why would God create such a creature knowing he would cause man's fall? Hmm.. God must have wanted the fall to happen.]

25. Why would an all-powerful god become flesh in order to sacrifice himself to himself so that his creation might escape the wrath of himself. Couldn't god, in his infinite wisdom, come up with something a little more efficient? - ON THE BODY OF CHRIST
1.) God?s flesh was known as Jesus.
2.) Flesh cannot enter into Heaven (according to Paul)
3.) God is no longer Jesus.
4.) Jesus doesn?t exist.

(Note: Many at this point will state that the spirit lives on so therefore Jesus lives. This really depends on what you believe about Jesus. Is Jesus the son of God or God in flesh? If Jesus is merely the son there is no problem.However, if Jesus ?is? God himself, we do. You see, Jesus is called Jesus because of the attribute of Flesh. If Jesus = God (who is spirit) then the entity known as Jesus ceases to exist. The flesh/body of Jesus, no longer exists and the spirit of God is still the unchanging spirit of God. No Jesus at that point. The Flesh, called Jesus, is dead.)

26. After 9/11 a lot of people have been tossing around " god bless america". Why do they keep saying this? From the looks of it god hasn't blessed anything. If god had blessed america, the 9/11 event would've never happened. Theists seem to give the answer of "everything is part of gods big plan". If everything is part of gods big plan, why are we after Bin Laden? Wasn't he and other terrorists just carrying out gods desired plan? So it seems that Bin Laden/ terrorism isnt our enemy, but god . - [Note: Unfortunately many religious nuts believe they are fulfilling their God's plan by going to war.]

27. Christians say that God is NOT the author of confusion. Can you say, Tower of Babel? - The Screaming Monkeys

28. If Noah's flood supposedly covered the earth for a year, regardless of whether or not all the animals could fit on the ark, what the heck happened to all the plants? Can you imagine a cactus surviving under 4 miles of water for a year? I can't either! - Kyle Giblet [Note: With God all things are possible. Oh wait, except in Judges 1:19.]

29. The highest rainfall ever recorded in a 24 hour period was 47inches in the Reunion Islands in 1947 (during a severe tropical storm). To cover the whole earth to a depth of 5.6 miles, and cover the mountain tops (i.e. Mount Everest), it would need to rain at a rate of 372 (three hundred and seventy two) inches per hour, over the entire surface of the earth. Can rain fall at such an astronomical rate? Where did all the water come from?? Where did it all go to??? And would not the dynamics of the earth be so out of balance (tides etc.) that the earth would become so unstable that it would wobble off into outer space???? -

30. What do Muslim women get in Paradise? - IG [Note: Some Muslims I have interviewed about this say that Muslim women will get the same thing men get or equal value. Smiling Oh really? So Muslim women will get 72 virgin men? lol. If Muslim men get 72 virgins, where are all these virgin women coming from? What of their freewill? Is Allah creating these women to be slaves to the men in Paradise?]

31. In the "Last Days" Jesus is supposed to appear in the clouds. How are the Christians on the opposite end of the world going to see him? Are there going to be millions of Jesus'? What about people that work underground? What about people in deep space? -

32. The Bible says that God is a jealous God . How is this an example of a moral absolute of which man is supposed to follow? - IG ON GOD`S JEALOUSY
1.) "God is love." 1 John 4:8.
2.) "Love is not jealous." 1 Cor 13:4
3.) "I, the Lord thy God, am a jealous God." Exodus 20:5.
4.) The Christian god cannot logically exist.
(NOte: Basically love is NOT jealous, yet god is jealous, then God can`t be love. But if god IS love he cannot be jealous. Be he is.)

33. A true Muslim man is not supposed to do anything that the prophet Muhammad didn't do. If one remembers there was a big debate over whether or not Muslims should eat Mangos. If this is true, why in the Hell were these Islamic Fundamentalists flying airplanes? - IG

34. If the earth was covered by a complete global flood, every living creature killed except those surviving on the ark, why are there many completely unique animal species in Australia that are found no where else indigenously on the earth? -

35. If god is omniscient and " god is love," why would he allow a child to be conceived, knowing that that child would one day reject him and spend eternity burning in a lake of fire?- TiredTurkeyProd

36. Revelations is supposed to take place on Earth. What if we colonize the moon or Mars or inhabit a self-sustaining space station? Do we escape "judgement"? -- Ray Sommers [Note: No we don't Ray... and of course we all know that if there is any intelligent life out there besides us, they are all going to Hell too. Eye-wink]

37. Isaiah 40:28 says, "...the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is he weary?" If this is true, why did God rest on the seventh day?- IG

38. Everytime I go to a funeral the preacher and guests always say that " God " has called that person to Heaven or they say, " God said it was time to come home", or some such variation. If God is calling these people "home", why are we putting the murderers of these victims in prison? How can we punish a man or woman for doing God's will? - IG

39. Does God have a gender? In most churches, God is predominately referred to as a "he"? - IG [Note: The Bible says God is male, but what does this mean? Does God have a penis? Does he have hormones that dictate his gender? Smiling]

40. Why can't we wait until we get to Heaven to worship God ? Why would it be too late? - IG

41. What is the purpose of prayer? What can a finite being on Earth possibly tell an omnipotent, omniscient deity that he doesn't know already? - IG ON PRAYER
1.) Humans can?t change God?s mind for he has a divine plan and is unchangeable.
2.) Prayer can't change God's mind.
3.) Prayer doesn't change anything.
(Prayer may make you feel better emotionally, but it doesn`t change God`s mind.)

42. Some say Jesus was the all-knowing God. Jesus would have known then that when he died he'd be in heaven in less than 3 days to rule. If Jesus is alive and ruling today, what did he sacrifice? -- Cyndy Hammond

43. God knows that men are sinners, untrustworthy and evil, why does God leave it up to fallible man (clergy..etc) to teach others about his word? Why would he put our eternal souls at risk if he loves us so much? - The Infidel Guy and Danno778

44. Did Adam have nipples? If so, how did he acquire them? In fact, why would God give "later man" nipples at all? They serve no purpose other than lactation. Some say pleasure. Where is that in Genesis exactly? All mammals have nipples as well, are theirs pleasureful for them too? Many men don't find their nipples pleasurable at all. - IG

45. How did Adam and Eve know it was wrong to disobey God if they hadn't eaten of the tree of knowledge (of good and evil) yet? You can't blame them if they didn't know. - IG

46. If God has such a tremendous problem with uncircumcised penises, why did he make man with foreskin in the first place? - IG [Note: Some say, "So God can recognize his chosen people." Recognize? Is God so stupid that he has to physically look at men's penises? If not God, do other men need to? lol.]

47. Did Noah have fish onboard? Salt or Fresh? Since fresh water fish would die in salt, and salt water fish would die in fresh, only one type of fish would survive. Yet....?" - Frank Monaco

48. Why does the omnipotent, omnipresent God need help from man or angels to spread his word or do acts? - IG [Note: Some say God doesn't need help. But apparently he does.] - IG

49. How did Jesus ascend to Heaven in the Flesh when Paul says that flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of Heaven? (1 Cor.15:50) - IG [Note: Some say, well Paul said that and not Jesus. Yet they quote Paul when it suits there purposes.]

50. If God wants us to live right and choose "the good," why did he create evil? (Isaiah 45:6,7) Not to mention he already knows which people are not going to choose "the good" so why create those people in the first place? It seems that many people are born to go to Hell. - IG ON HELL
1.) God is all-knowing.
2.) Before I was born God knew I wouldn?t believe in him.
3.) I was born to go to Hell.
(Sure you may say I have a choice, but I think I`ve proven already that I really don`t. I`m simply fulfilling the will of God by being an atheist aren`t I? If I`m not, I shouldn`t exist: For God would have known that before I was created that I wouldn`t believe in him.)

51. I hear Christians all the time speaking of a spiritual war between Heaven and Hell, if this is true does God have limitations of power? Man only conducts wars because of our limitations of power and foresight. God has both all-power and all-knowledge, no reason for war of any kind. - IG

52. The Bible is full of phrases beginning with, "and the lord saw". Didn't he know before hand? - IG

53. How can a psychologist condone belief in something not proven to exist, when people are put into mental institutions on a daily basis for the same thing? i.e. aliens, fairies, imaginary people (Multiple Personality Disorders..)? - Dan Denton [Note: I'm sure that some of the pious believe that they are improperly placed there as well Dan. Smiling]

54. If Christians say they know God exists and that he will work miracles, what do they need faith for? Faith is not knowing. - IG

55. Brain, or shall I say, body transplants, will eventually be possible, where would the soul be then? Where is the soul? - IG

56. If God really wants us to know him, why doesn't he place the knowledge of him in our minds at birth? The same way many theists believe that God implants our sense of right and wrong in us a right birth. - IG

57. If God was Jesus' father (not Joseph), then why is Jesus' family tree traced through Joseph? -- Cyndy Hammond

58. What image of God was man made from? Couldn't have been a moral one or physical one. - IG [Note: One would suspect that an image of God would be perfect and cannot sin. Oops.]

59. Why can't God appear before everyone at the same time? Everyone in the world would then "know" he exists and not have solely "believe". And please, don't say he already tried that. Surely a God knows exactly what to do to convince a measly human of his existence. - IG

60. According to the New Testament Matthew 5:17 says "Do not suppose that I have come to abolish the Law and the prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to complete. I tell you this: so long as heaven and earth endure, not a letter, not a stroke, will disappear from the Law until all that must happen has Happened." So since Jesus has not returned the "Law" is still in effect, so why aren't we still burning witches, stoning adulterers and disobedient children, killing homosexuals, ostracizing people that work on the Sabbath (nurses, doctors etc.), flinging blood onto the horns of the alter, pulling off the heads of small birds, and don't forget human sacrifice to God (Leviticus 27 P.28 )? -- Sheila L. Chambers

61. If there is freewill in Heaven yet everyone has chosen good and is happy, isn't that proof that God could have made us with freewill, choosing good ( God ) and still being happy on Earth? - Dennis Hendrix [Note: In other words, evil didn't have to exist after all. Hey wait, even in Heaven apparently, evil can exist. At least for a short while. Satan became evil and was in heaven. Apparently he even had enough time to form an Army against God. Wow. Maybe Heaven won't be as peaceful as many believe.]

62. Why does God have a plan? Man is limited in power so we make plans because we are not all-knowing nor all-powerful. If God has a plan, isn't he reduced to a mere finite being? - IG

63. How could the all-merciful/loving God watch billions of his children burn over and over again for eternity? - IG [Note: Of course this is geared to those that believe in a fiery hell. I am well aware that not all Christians believe in a fiery Hell.]

64. Before reading and writing were invented (5000BC), on what basis did God use to judge the people who died before the Hebrew and Greek text (BIBLE) were written? -- [Note: They are all roasting in Hell. Smiling]

65. Many Christians tell me that I will "burn in hell". If I have a soul, how can a soul burn? Aren't souls non-physical entities? - IG [Note: Some Christians groups believe that you will be given new bodies after judgement. However, if true, what's the significance of a spirit in the first place?]

66. How can one hold to the barbaric belief that something has to DIE in order to appease a god for a bad deed? -- Nickolaus Wing [Note: Because an old book says so Nick.]

67. Why does SIDS (Sudden Infant Death Syndrome) occur? Why would God allow a baby to live for such a short period of time? Why not just let them not be born in the first place? -- Terry Clark [Note: This actually happened to a friend of mine. Not even God himself could console her.]

68. If Jesus was nailed and died on Friday evening, and walked out of the tomb on Sunday morning, where's the 3rd NIGHT he predicted? Per Matthew 12:40: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. -

69. Many Christians claim that hell is merely existence outside of God ?s presence (C.S. Lewis among others). If this is the case, then Jesus could not have descended into hell (being God Himself). As a result, are you sure your sins are forgiven? - Byron Bultsma

70. Ten to twenty percent of all women who discover they are pregnant suffer a miscarriage. Also, it is estimated that anywhere from 14 to 50 percent of all pregnancies end in miscarriage. Seeing this is all part of God 's plan, does this make God the world's number one abortion provider? - Jim

71. What if, when you get to Heaven, you saw God causing pain and suffering out of anger or for the purpose of entertaining himself. What if he required people in heaven to praise and worship him non-stop even to the point of causing his worshipers discomfort, pain and boredom. What if, when he was bored, angry, or jealous, he would create natural disasters to make himself feel better. Would you still follow him? - Fernando [Note: Of course they would Fernando, many people followed Hitler out of fear as well.]

72. In Leviticus, the bible condemns homosexuality as an "abomination", giving some Christians a reason to hate, harass, torture and kill gays and even picket their funderals with " God hates fags" signs. In the same book of the bible the eating of shellfish is equally an "abomination". Are these Christians planning to go after the patrons of Red Lobster next? - [Note: hee-hee, that's all I can say. Jewish Law states that eating Fish without scales is an abomination and thus the Shark is one among the list. However, sharks do have scales, Placoid scales, one of the many reasons why a shark is called a Fish .]

73. Christians will tell you that if a baby dies it goes to heaven. Why then are they so against abortion? All the child is being deprived of is the opportunity to go to hell. Either that or god expects unborn fetuses to accept Jesus. -

74. If one could prove to you incontrovertibly that Jesus and God were all human fabrications would still believe? And why? - LOGICnREASON [Note: If you say yes. Then you are not concerned with the truth, you simply WANT to believe; and if you WANT to believe, indeed, there is nothing anyone can tell you..]

75. It is often said that God allows evil because one could not meaningfully appreciate good without experiencing its opposite. Why is it necessary to experience the opposite of something in order to appreciate it? Must I experience death in order to meaningfully appreciate life? -excidius

76. Bible literalists want you to believe that God's Word in the Bible is meant to be taken literally. If this is the case, why was Jesus fond of explaining things in parable and metaphor? Was Jesus literally discussing the biology of mustard seeds, or was the mustard seed parable meant to be interpreted figuratively as faith? -excidius

77. Liberal Christians say some parts of the Bible are literally true, but much else is to be interpreted figuratively as allegory. How do you know which is which? What distinguishing criteria are used? How can you be certain "God" is a literal and not a figurative concept? -excidius

78. Consciousness is the result of a physical brain, how could God being metaphysical be said to be conscious or sentient without having a brain? - Mindless

79. Considering how Leviticus is considered old law, and that Christians do not obey it anymore, why do they always use it to defend homosexuality being an "abomination"? -Bohorquez

80. If God is omnipotent and he has a plan ... then why did he not create the universe as it will be one second after the plan has succeeded? Who or what prevented him from doing that? - Timothy Campbell (http://www.tc123.com)

81. The large majority of people who have ever existed could not have learned of the Bible or Jesus Christ. And many people afterwards have found other religions or no religion at all to be more convincing, sometimes while being very virtuous. Do all these people really deserve eternal torment because of that? -- lpetrich

82. The above arguments also apply among different sects of Christianity, many of which state that most others are not True Christianity. -- lpetrich

83. Is it reasonable for the Creator and Ruler of such a vast Universe to be preoccupied with the sexuality of a species living on a tiny little planet? -- lpetrich

84. If the Christian god was all loving and all knowing why did he let religious figures such as Mohammed or Gautama Budda be born, knowing that they would mislead people from the 'true' faith and trick the majority of the world's population into burning forever in hell (in fact, if Islam didn't start, most of the middle east would probably be Christian). It would simple to use the Holy Spirit to guide them to Jesus and spread the 'true' faith. If the Holy Spirit exits, it certainly isn't doing it's job!

85. If one is obliged to follow all the teachings of the bible then why is engaging in homosexuality or adultery any worse than "suffering a witch to live", "muzzling the ox that treadeth the corn", "reaping the corners of thy field", "marring the corners of they beard", "plowing with an oxen and an ass", "hating thy brother in thy heart" or "eating frogs, shellfish and eels" ?

86. Exactly how did the alleged worldwide flood kill off all the world's sea creatures? How does one go about drowning a fish? -- Steever

87. Why did this alleged god create humans as an animal form of life that gets sick and dies and experiences pain and has a limited mind when 'it' could have created humans as a form of pure energy or of some indestructible material or whatever, and was totally ?sinless? and had ?pure? thought? If a god was omnipotent 'it' could have easily have done this. --AI

88. If a god is omnipotent how did 'it' fail to foresee that Satan would turn against 'it'? --AI

89. What is a god supposedly made of? --AI

This list was compiled by the Infidel Guy with submissions from many members of the atheist community.

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Tilberian
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seth wrote: stuntgibbon

seth wrote:
stuntgibbon wrote:

Evolutionary theory actually starts by assuming life has already started at some point, it is not a theory of HOW it started. (that's instead called abiogenesis) 

That is a very convenient assumption that evolution makes.

There is no assumption at all. Life exists, we can see it all around us. Further, there is no reason why evolution should present a theory of abiogenesis when it is outside the scope of inquiry of the theory. In your opinion, should evolution also explain the formation of stars? Must a theory explain everything before it can be said to explain anything? 

 

seth wrote:
I'm glad someone, not you, decided to actually answer my question and gave me the theory behind "abiogenesis" which is what I was looking for.   It seems to me that either way, theist or not, there is a lot of uncertainty about how life came to exist, I just happen to be on the side that says that life didn't just randomly come about by "luck" and therefore has no purpose whatsoever.

Abioigenesis very likely wasn't about luck any more than evolution is about randomness. Abiogenesis would have happened in response to a very specific set of circumstances, proceeding in a highly predictable way given all the variables involved. Just because we don't know all about it doesn't make it luck.

Life has the purpose that life assigns to it. Without life, there is no purpose. Does a rock have purpose and meaning by itself? Of course not. If you want to claim otherwise, you have to point to a source of purpose and meaning outside our minds, and you can't do that without making up fairy tales.  

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown


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seth wrote: stuntgibbon

seth wrote:
stuntgibbon wrote:

Evolutionary theory actually starts by assuming life has already started at some point, it is not a theory of HOW it started. (that's instead called abiogenesis)

That is a very convenient assumption that evolution makes. I'm glad someone, not you, decided to actually answer my question and gave me the theory behind "abiogenesis" which is what I was looking for. It seems to me that either way, theist or not, there is a lot of uncertainty about how life came to exist, I just happen to be on the side that says that life didn't just randomly come about by "luck" and therefore has no purpose whatsoever.

The truth is I wanted to figure out how much you actually knew about the theory that you've called a great lie.  And it seems like it's "very little" would be a fair assumption on my part at this point.  

What I know is that there are some competing plausible theories in abiogenesis, and am willing to accept that life started naturally for now until someone proves the best answer.  I'm personally fine with leaving a question mark in a place in which I don't have all the answers. 

Pretending I know the exact answer and just placing something (like a god) in the hole doesn't further our understanding at all.  

Also, you might want to read closer until you find how little the word "random" comes up in these theories.  It's generally a misrepresentation of the science. 

 


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life

stuntgibbon wrote:

I'm personally fine with leaving a question mark in a place in which I don't have all the answers.

Pretending I know the exact answer and just placing something (like a god) in the hole doesn't further our understanding at all.

Thanks for stringing me along trying to get my knowledge of evolution out of me. I know what I was taught in school about evolution, I already told you that. I assume you went to school too, so I'm sure you could decifer about how much that is. I'm glad that you finally admitted too that you don't know where life came from, the point I was trying to get at. So why then isn't it ok to form an answer which includes God, to tell how life began? I am not ok with leaving a question mark to life's greatest question. I want to know that answer, because the answer to that question forms the basis for everything we do. Does life have a purpose? Is life meaningless? What happens when I die? Those are all questions that hinge off of, "where did life begin?" So I'm not just going to wait around and wait for scientists to explain what they will probably never know. I believe that life does have a purpose, and probably to your chagrine, I'm not affraid to tell others about it.

ps. Since you don't know how life began, maybe you should change your stance to agnostic, since you don't know 


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seth wrote: Thanks for

seth wrote:

Thanks for stringing me along trying to get my knowledge of evolution out of me. I know what I was taught in school about evolution, I already told you that.

Well I'd agree many of our public schools are failing our youth.  If your teacher told you that evolutionary theory included a story for HOW life started, you're now a bit smarter for having come here. 

 

seth wrote:

I assume you went to school too, so I'm sure you could decifer about how much that is.

Yeah that was the problem.  You hadn't learned the information, whether or not the school presented it correctly.   

 

seth wrote:

I'm glad that you finally admitted too that you don't know where life came from, the point I was trying to get at. So why then isn't it ok to form an answer which includes God, to tell how life began?

The problem for me is that the god claim is one that has no evidence supporting it.  

 

seth wrote:
 

I am not ok with leaving a question mark to life's greatest question. I want to know that answer, because the answer to that question forms the basis for everything we do.

I actually don't believe you want any answers.  You've simply accepted a non-answer that tells us very little about the world and certainly isn't making real predictions to its outcome.  

seth wrote:
Does life have a purpose?

No. 

seth wrote:
Is life meaningless?

Maybe. A person creates his own meaning in life, it's up to him or her whether or not they'll live a life with a meaning to them. 

seth wrote:
What happens when I die?

 Do you remember the billions of years that passed before you were born at all?  There's a high probability, it's just like that.

 

seth wrote:
Those are all questions that hinge off of, "where did life begin?"

I disagree, but that's the fun of it.  I disagree because even with the knowledge that we don't have all the answers, lots of people are living meaningful lives anyway.  I don't see how finding out where the first replicating cells came from would answer any of these questions for anyone.  

 


 

seth wrote:
ps. Since you don't know how life began, maybe you should change your stance to agnostic, since you don't know

Here we go again!  Atheism isn't knowledge, it's a rejection of claims of theism.  You're probably also an atheist when it comes to claims of all sorts of gods, as I can reasonably expect you're not also sending prayers to gods of Hindu beliefs, greek gods, egyptian gods, native american gods, mayan gods and pagan gods.   You simply don't believe the stories/accounts they've offered.

I'm just like that, with one more god on the pile. Yours. However, most of us DO remain agnostic when it comes to the concept of "any god, ever."   The probability seems pretty low at this point, but without full knowledge, there's a crack in the window for a claim that COULD have merit.  We've, however, yet to see that.  

 

 


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seth wrote: So why then

seth wrote:

So why then isn't it ok to form an answer which includes God, to tell how life began? I am not ok with leaving a question mark to life's greatest question.

Well, the problem is twofold. First, you've accepted an answer that has no corroboration. Remember, the answer cannot corroborate itself. So basically, what you've accepted is the word of a whole bunch of people who themselves have no outside corroboration. In effect, you're basically accepting the assertions of a bunch of dissidents from 1900 years ago who told people 'trust us, we can't prove anything.'

Now, you might say 'but doesn't science, ultimately, say the same thing: Trust us, we can't prove it, just show it's possible?' Well,  not quite. Science does search for corroboration, for evidence to show whether an idea is plausible. But not only that, science searches for evidence that the idea is wrong, and if we can find it, we discard the idea. And that's the second part of the problem with theistic 'answers': The 'god did it' answer tends to amount to 'shut up, stop asking questions'. As soon as 'god' is invoked, then you're abdicating the possible search for a better understanding of the process.

Personally, I think it's great that you're not content to leave the question unanswered. But at the same time, you seem to be content to have an answer that doesn't tell you anything.

Quote:
Q: How did life begin?

A: An entity you cannot comprehend, through a means you cannot comprehend, made life begin.

Is that an answer, or is it 'you're not big enough to understand, now shut up and go back to the kiddie table'?

Many theists, including you to an extent, maintain that God is knowable through his creation, through everything around us. If that's the case, then why is that threatened by continuing to probe the deepest secrets of it? 

Quote:
Does life have a purpose? Is life meaningless? What happens when I die?

Except that once again, you're accepting an answer that's untestable, unquestionable, and unprovable. In effect, the answer you're accepting remains 'this is the answer, shut up', and if you really want to know the truth, then why accept an answer that tells you not to seek it for yourself?

Quote:
So I'm not just going to wait around and wait for scientists to explain what they will probably never know.

But the answer you're accepting is, in fact, "Nobody knows, and if they do, they won't tell you".

Quote:
ps. Since you don't know how life began, maybe you should change your stance to agnostic, since you don't know

Psst. Agnosticism is atheism. Atheism is a lack of active belief in a god. Agnostics say 'I don't know', and not knowing is a lack of active belief. 

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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BMcD wrote: Quote: Does

BMcD wrote:

Quote:
Does life have a purpose? Is life meaningless? What happens when I die?

Except that once again, you're accepting an answer that's untestable, unquestionable, and unprovable. In effect, the answer you're accepting remains 'this is the answer, shut up', and if you really want to know the truth, then why accept an answer that tells you not to seek it for yourself?

Great arguments.  Ok this leads me to ask another question. If questions such as those stated above cannot be answered by science, should we not seek an answer for them?  I think the first question is one that everyone wants to know the answer to.  In a way, scientist are trying to answer it, by forming theories of how life opperates.  If scientists can prove that life is an "accident" than that will justify the stance of athiesm.  In the mean time, what I see happening is not so different than what theists are doing.  There are some really hard to believe claims in the name of science that lack evidence to substatiate them, yet atheists chose to believe them anyway.  Origins of life and macro evolution are two of them that I personally don't believe.  Anyway, not all theists are giving up on the search for answers, that is why theologians study the Bible, it's claims and seek to validate its claims.  Archeology also has substatiated many of the claim of the Bible to give it support as a historically accurate work.  Don't you wish that they had video cameras back in the day, that would sure have cleared up this arguement.  Anyway, thank for your insightful answer, I'm learning a lot about what atheists believe and why.


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seth wrote:

seth wrote:

Great arguments. Ok this leads me to ask another question. If questions such as those stated above cannot be answered by science, should we not seek an answer for them?

I think the first two questions are ones that cannot be answered by any external agency, not science, not religion, not nothing. What's the purpose of life? All of it? If we can't wrap our heads around the number of insect species in existence (and trust me, you can't. It's got too many zeros), then why should we think we can wrap our heads around what all of it's for? Start closer to home: what is the purpose of my life? Is my life meaningless?

And in the end, religion can't give you those answers any more than science can. All it can do is tell you what someone else thinks the answer should be. Ultimately, we each have to answer those questions for ourselves. And my answer won't tell you why you have to exist, only why I must live.

The third question depends a lot on developing a far better understanding of consciousness than we currently have. We're only beginning to scratch the surface, and part of the problem is that consciousness only seems to exist in the movement through time, and frankly, we really don't have a clear concept of what the hell 'time' is other than as a mathematical construct.

Quote:
If scientists can prove that life is an "accident" than that will justify the stance of athiesm. In the mean time, what I see happening is not so different than what theists are doing.

Science doesn't claim life is an accident. In fact, a lot of the trend right now is that under the right conditions, life is an inevitability. It's just a question of what those conditions are.

Quote:
There are some really hard to believe claims in the name of science that lack evidence to substatiate them, yet atheists chose to believe them anyway. Origins of life and macro evolution are two of them that I personally don't believe.

Science doesn't make claims without evidence. Scientific theories, in order to be taken seriously at all, must fit the observable data. If there is no evidence to support an idea, it remains a hypothesis only. And a hypothesis is not a claim, it's a 'hey, we have this idea. Keep your eyes out for anything to support or disprove it, will you?'

Quote:
Anyway, not all theists are giving up on the search for answers, that is why theologians study the Bible, it's claims and seek to validate its claims.

And yet, the central claims of the Bible cannot be validated by any material means. That's part of the package.

Quote:
Archeology also has substatiated many of the claim of the Bible to give it support as a historically accurate work.

And disproven others, such as the Noah account.

Quote:
Don't you wish that they had video cameras back in the day, that would sure have cleared up this arguement. Anyway, thank for your insightful answer, I'm learning a lot about what atheists believe and why.

Yeah, it would've made things easier. And sure, no problem. We're better off engaging in discussion than simply browbeating one another. Eye-wink

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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This list is impressive,

This list is impressive, Sapient Smiling
I'll answer only few questions.

Quote:

18. If a spirit is non-physical but the human body is physical, how does a spirit stay in our bodies? - IG ON SPIRITS
1.) Spirits are not physical entities.
2.) Brains are physical entities.
3.) Past experiences are stored in our physical brains, we call that, Memory..
4.) Injury can damage portions of the physical brain that store memory and can alter or erase memories completely.
5.) If human spirits exist... after death, spirits can have no memory.
[Note: Some will say the spirit stores physical memories as well, but if true, the spirit would have to be physical at least to a degree. How could a non-physical spirit store, physical memories?]


18. Consider the possibility our bodies to stay in the Spirit.
1.) Yes.
2.) Yes.
3.) You assume that awareness about past experience can be stored in material bearer. How would that be true if the awareness is not material. Have you measured awareness in other way except with awareness?
4.) Injury damages the part of the brain which processes the awareness about past experience. Why do you assume that injury damages the place for storing awareness?
5.) After death the Spirit does not need to act from human point of view. It doesn't need humans five senses in order to observe and process information through the brain. The part about Spirit's memory is simply an assumption pulled from the previous point 4 but it doesn't necessarily mean that Spirit must have past memories as a personal experience. Personality is developed through knowledge gained in personal observation which wee call "life". All knowledge is stored in the Spirit therefore it can not have all personalities as its own. It is simply dirt over the self-awareness of the Spirit.


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1) How do you determine

Dominick_777 said:

Quote:

4 questions for the questioners..

1) What happens if a personal can answer these in a reasonable way, that should be acceptable to anyone who follows the principles of reason?

2) Would the people asking these questions suddenly change their minds from non theism to at very least theism if that happens?

3) Or are these being asked for no real reason..implying the questioners arent really interested in reason or truth?

4) What would you say is an appropriate criteria you think is fair in answering one two or all of these?

Please be specific in your answer. I hope there's a consensus on the answer.

1) How do you determine what a reasonable, or good, explanation is? For example, I am wearing a shirt because:

a) I put it on

b)Unicorns knit it on me every morning.

 

Do you have a specific and reliable way to determine which explanation is better? I do.

 

2)Yes, assuming your explanations are better. Coming up with an explanation (see b), is not necessarily convincing. A GOOD answer is more convincing.

 

3)These all seem to be real questions that the non-religious have. The Religious often want us to see the "truth" of their belief, but they seem to avoid answering many of these questions, or, give poor answers.

 

4)I'm glad you ask. I would suggest the following (from Peter Carruthers):


Accuracy - predicting all or most of the data to be explained and explaining away the rest - i.e. showing where there may be errors of data collection or interpretation.

Consistency - that there are no contradictions within the theory or model.

Coherence - with surrounding beliefs and theories which are not to be superseded by the new, or at least consistency with them.

Simplicity - being expressible as economically as possible, with the fewest commitments to distinct kinds of fact and process.

Fecundity - making new predictions and suggesting new lines of enquiry.

Scope - unifying a diverse range of data.

 

If you feel you have a better method of determing a Good Explanation, please offer it up and answer a question using your criteria.

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov


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daedalus wrote:4)I'm glad

daedalus wrote:

4)I'm glad you ask. I would suggest the following (from Peter Carruthers):


Accuracy - predicting all or most of the data to be explained and explaining away the rest - i.e. showing where there may be errors of data collection or interpretation.

Consistency - that there are no contradictions within the theory or model.

Coherence - with surrounding beliefs and theories which are not to be superseded by the new, or at least consistency with them.

Simplicity - being expressible as economically as possible, with the fewest commitments to distinct kinds of fact and process.

Fecundity - making new predictions and suggesting new lines of enquiry.

Scope - unifying a diverse range of data.

 

If you feel you have a better method of determing a Good Explanation, please offer it up and answer a question using your criteria.

 

You realize that, especially with the 'simplicity' and 'fecundity' qualifiers, the answer to every one of these questions, indeed, all of them at once, becomes easy, don't you? Try this one:

 

God exists, he's a sick, sadistic bastard, and all of history and religion can be explained by realizing that he likes fucking with us all, and will keep on fucking with us because of that sadistic bastard part up front.

 

See? Explains everything, is simple, makes predictions, is consistent, encompasses all the available data... and supercedes everything, so needs no coherence.

 

It's bullshit, but it still satisfies all the conditions. Smiling

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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Science based on evidence...

"Science doesn't claim life is an accident. In fact, a lot of the trend right now is that under the right conditions, life is an inevitability. It's just a question of what those conditions are."

You are right it is not the science that claim that. It is humans making theories basaed on some scientific suspicions.

Whatever scientist can claim should be based on empirical assumptions. It has to be based on our perceptions.

Anything that can't be perceived and measured is out of the scope of science. So radio waves were out of the scope of science before 1865. After they were discovered they become a scientific fact.

So science has inborn limitations. One eye of the science is destined to be blind. Science is a constant search for better explanation of material world. Science is never satisfied with any explanation. Also science is not loyal to any claims it can make.

Whenever you get a new evidence then you wave goodbye to the old assumptions without any hard feelings.

So science in this respect is nothing more than a suspisious look to everything. However certain things are getting less suspicious if you have supporting evidence. But nothing is an absolute fact.

Thus scientific fact is a knowledge  which is less likelihood of being false. But definately is not the end of the discussion...

So then how come a concept which can't be measured and perceived can be disproven by science? How you are going to apply the null hypothesis to the concept of God?

You can't. Then those who claim their disbelief in God is based on scientific facts is baseless.

The scinetific hypotheses regarding the driving force behind the Big Bang and creation of the Universe and life can't be more than baseless claims. And sorry not scientific...

Peace!

 


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gaziturk wrote:So then how

gaziturk wrote:

So then how come a concept which can't be measured and perceived can be disproven by science? How you are going to apply the null hypothesis to the concept of God?

You can't. Then those who claim their disbelief in God is based on scientific facts is baseless.

The scinetific hypotheses regarding the driving force behind the Big Bang and creation of the Universe and life can't be more than baseless claims. And sorry not scientific...

 

Simple: I'm not. I don't believe God exists. I don't believe God does not exist. I don't know. Having no active belief in God makes me an atheist.

The point here is not to claim that science proves there is no God. Rather, the point is that we are not making an assertion. Those who believe in the existence of the divine are making an assertion, namely, that God exists. Thus, the burden of proof is on them. What we are saying is that unless they can meet that burden of proof, there is no reason to actively believe in the existence of God.

If you'd like to make the point that positive assertion of the nonexistence of the divine, ie, "Strong Atheism", suffers from the same problem as theism... go for it. You're right. But the best you can really do is say "Strong Atheism" is flawed when compared to "Weak Atheism".

In the end, unless you want to make claims on the same order as those you're decrying, you're still pushing atheism. Eye-wink

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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Believing is normal

Believeing in God is a normal human emotion. Not everybody gets to feel it. And those who do do it without forcing themselves. Comes naturally. Why?

Because it seems it is not in our hands. Our brain seems to be hardwired for religion. Thus we as a single point on the Bell curve respond to religion according to our place in the variation for ability to believe in God. The atheist can't help it too. Because he/she doesn't feel it. Then how do you expect me to argue about the existance of God. I can't make you experience my emotions. Can you? I feel it, but you don't.

 

Recently I watched a BBC documentary on "God on the brain". Link: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7991385426492181792&q=god+on+the+brain&total=1675&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=...

It is regarding scientific experiments on religion. At the end of that movie it is concluded that scientific evidence points out the probability for the existance of special brain centers involved in producing religous beliefs. Those seem to be  hardwired since our birth. One guy called them "the anntennas of God". Some of us get better reception than others. Normal Bell curve distibution.

Thus I find normal both the reaction of the atheists and the theists. Is there any possible resolution on this dispute? No, never. Since the early beginning of human history some of us believed and some of us didn't. Only once we die we will get to  know the right answer. Till then those two views are equally valid. And by the way those two are systems of belief. Non-beliving of God is nothing more than assumption, thus in that sense includes significant portion of belief. Thus we are belivers of opposite views.

Once a human being starts feeling the presence of God only then the logical reasoning regarding the concept of God is supposed to come into the picture. A person has to choose the most reasonable religion to satisfy that need. But here again we see the Bell curve distribution. I can claim my religion is the best but people no matter what would choose the one which is more accessable to them. The one that has well established places of worship. Because a believer needs to satisfy his need of belief by worshiping.

My religion is Islam. Thus the most of the questions addressing theists don't apply to me. They are mostly attacking  the Christian religion.

For my religion I can say that it is based on strong reason, free from the contradictions of Christianity. However everybody got to choose the best that suits them.

Peace.


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BMcD wrote:daedalus

BMcD wrote:

daedalus wrote:

4)I'm glad you ask. I would suggest the following (from Peter Carruthers):


Accuracy - predicting all or most of the data to be explained and explaining away the rest - i.e. showing where there may be errors of data collection or interpretation.

Consistency - that there are no contradictions within the theory or model.

Coherence - with surrounding beliefs and theories which are not to be superseded by the new, or at least consistency with them.

Simplicity - being expressible as economically as possible, with the fewest commitments to distinct kinds of fact and process.

Fecundity - making new predictions and suggesting new lines of enquiry.

Scope - unifying a diverse range of data.

 

If you feel you have a better method of determing a Good Explanation, please offer it up and answer a question using your criteria.

 

You realize that, especially with the 'simplicity' and 'fecundity' qualifiers, the answer to every one of these questions, indeed, all of them at once, becomes easy, don't you? Try this one:

 

God exists, he's a sick, sadistic bastard, and all of history and religion can be explained by realizing that he likes fucking with us all, and will keep on fucking with us because of that sadistic bastard part up front.

 

See? Explains everything, is simple, makes predictions, is consistent, encompasses all the available data... and supercedes everything, so needs no coherence.

 

It's bullshit, but it still satisfies all the conditions. Smiling

two things:

1. But you haven't taken ALL the conditions into consideration.  Sure, you can make up an answer to fit one, or a few of them, but usually made-up answers fail in capturing all of them.

2. By saying "God" it is not one simple thing, in order to come to that conclusion, one would have to make a whole host of assumptions and "leaps of faith" to get there.

 

I suggest the reason you find it silly (the god thing, as we should) is because you understand the god proposition in the context of the complete list.

 

Theists tend to jettison one or more of the catagories (if they even have ANY reasons for having the belief they do). THat is, you will never get a Theist to address their beliefs in the context of this list OR, more strangely, they will never give you the standard with which they apply to their own beliefs. I have never seen one offer an alternative, or accept this list, in terms of what, to them, makes a "good explanation" for things.

 

 

Edit: case in point. The Muslim who posted just before this post says that "everyone has their reasons". I bet he will not give a methodology as to how he judges one reason over another. It, apparently, is just a feeling...

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov


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The Muslim from above says:

The Muslim from above says: I can't judge you according to my understanding of the reality. Reality is a subjective term. Quantum choice rings a bell?

There are no absolute sciencific facts. They are relative agreements regarding certain perceptions. Yet it is the subject who is supposed to put all of those facts into a his/her own concept of reality.

Thus my reality is different than yours. No matter how much scientific knowledge we do

share.

How are you supposed to judge subjective realities?

All of us we are part of one human population. We differ in every aspect. Yet we form a nice spectrum of qualities depicted in the Bell curve of distribution. No man is similar to another.

This is the only reality. We are dfferent. Each of us is unique. Each of us is a separate universe. Some people's IQ scores might be the same but their experiences are totally different, unique. Who is there to hold authority to judge my way of seeing things?

Only me. If I can feel the presence of God who is there to tell me I don't feel it? And do I have to explain myself?

Who is there to claim ability "to fix" the belief in God? I can't make anybody belief in something no matter how much I want him to. Why would somebody want to fix my feelings? Who's business is that?

Who is irratoinal ?

I am only asking...


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Something you might like to read

Hey Fellas,

I'd like to just refer you to a book (atheists and theists feel free to check it out).  I'd like to make an appeal to your intellectual vanity.

"The Science Before Science". Written by Dr. Anthony Rizzi, a physicist. He uses science to prove the existence of God.

I'm not going to join in the debate of the 89 contested questions, but I feel strongly enough to just get a few things off my chest, if I may. I have my beliefs, and I believe in God. I do not need to convince anyone or prove His existence to know of His existence in my heart. These 89 cleverly designed questions, rife with circular logic, and tawdry asinine philosophical "backward speak", and pointless  "IF ELSE THEN" statements do nothing than show appalling ignorance and pales before Him. You cannot sum up God in a few simple questions. You can contradict words, but not God. You cannot condescend to understand God's nature in the universe in any shape or form, when collectively we as human beings can't even understand our own. I've seen what happens to those who tried to answer all the questions. They were retorted with clever contradictory remakes, logic attacks, and the kind of techniques my nephew uses when I catch him in the cookie jar after I sternly told him "No". I'm not going to subject myself to such, as they are pointless and will only result in my (and possibly your) frustration. I'm going to write this long-winded text and fully expose myself to any and all barrages of verbal assault. All will be noted, and given up to God in prayer upon receipt.

The answer is faith, but one such as yourself have eaten from the Tree of Knowledge and faith contradicts reason (only when it pertains to God). It creates a paradox in your own mind, and your rational mind can't allow that.  It doesnt want to allow that. It craves the answers that you can't see, or hear, or feel, or touch, or taste.  Your own atheism to me is existence of God. This website, and the efforts you are making only confirm my own beliefs and strengthen them.

So I thought I might ask some questions myself. Not the kind of questions you posted. Just some simple personal questions that I feel would help me understand atheism a little more. You see, I'm a simple man. The same way you can't fathom why someone would believe in God and made it your business to elect a forefront for likewise individuals to come forth and publicly denounce God, as offensive as that is to me, there are things I don't understand either. Maybe you can help me understand them. See, I have this feeling in my heart. I like to think it is Jesus in my heart. It feels like Christmas when I was 5, and still believed in Santa Claus. But you wouldn't know anything about that. As, a true Atheist wouldn't celebrate Christmas, right? I mean, how could you celebrate the birth of the very thing you don't believe in? Did you go easter egg hunting when you were a kid? Did it feel foolish? These are the kinds of questions I mean.

If there was no God, why is there this invisible struggle against Him?

Why are YOU struggling against Him, if there is nothing to struggle against?

Why does this site exist  if the possibility of God doesn't bother you in some way?

Do you believe in vampires? How about the Langoliers? Or the Tommyknockers?

If God can be simply cast off as a myth, a fairy tale to scare children and fund a fake giant religious enterprise...Delusions of huge sections of society that are mentally divergent...Why don't you give it a name?

Call it "The -Itis". Call it something. Call it "I, God"...or "We, Gods!". Since you don't believe in God, the next best thing would be to believe in yourselves, right?

"Rational Response" is a contradiction. How do you rationally respond to causes of mass hysteria? How do you rationally respond to vampires? With a stake? You'd have to be nuts, or at least believe in vampires to even think that way. Is this site your excuse? Are you all a symptom/reaction of God? Is this what belief in God produces? A counter-belief (disbelief).

Rational Response... I'll get into another "rational response" in just a few moments.

If you have no religion, how is it bothering you personally? Why is it? Do you feel neglected in some way? Or is it the opposite? Do you get offended if someone sends you a Christmas card? Or if someone says Merry Christmas? Do you say Merry Christmas back at them because it's common courtesy? Or do you tell them "Bah Humbug!", and mean it?

Do you get mad when someone says "God bless you!" after you sneeze?

You don't donate at church (or go to church). You don't attend Youth Group, or offer goods and services to help the Church, and if you did, would that counteract your disbelief?

Here is something I don't understand. Atheists believe in nothing. Yet, that isn't true. You believe in something. Something strong enough that it inspired you to make this site, and put forth all that energy into debating the nature of God's existence. Where did all that energy come from? Where did the ideas come from? Better yet, where did the need come from? You don't believe in the devil, yet you're doing the devils work. Strange. You pick apart the bible, and make people trying to defend it look foolish, diminishing their faith. And if faith is what makes a Christian, are you not serving Satan by working in exact opposition of God, by smiting his servants? I'm sorry, you don't believe in Satan either. I forgot.

I think you've chosen your opponents poorly. Why don't you debate some nice fanatical Muslims and see if you can shake their faith one iota? See if you can talk about "Rational Reponses" to some of them. That's a real challenge. But yes, denouncing Christianity and picking on those who turn the other cheek... Yes, I'm impressed. Truly. I stand in awe of your might and your majesty... You are all paragons of power in a just universe. Do you wonder if God is impressed?

When a loved one dies - how does an atheist tend to the remains? Assuming there is a funeral and not some other method - Do you just simply stand idle and let the traditions of old preside, with a preacher, and some words from the bible...?  Or simply throw them in a hole, and call it a day?

Do you have Christian friends? If you get sick, and someone tells you "don't worry, I'll pray for you". How do you react to that? Does it feel like someone spit on your favorite shoes? Or does it feel like nothing?

I saw the "Way of the Master vs Rational Response" episodes on YouTube. You wanted a scientific explanation of the existence of God without  the use of the bible.  I believe Dr. Anthony Rizzi can accommodate you. He speaks your language. If you have the time, I challenge you to give it a read.

So in conclusion, this site is a "Rational Response" to God and His followers.

That's not true. You're mistaken. a REAL "Rational Response" would be for you to get down on your knees, and beg for His mercy. Time is coming short. We have this time that we're given to make our peace with God and to learn about Him. When we die, it's too late. You can't change it. You can't turn back the clocks. You can't make amends. There is no take-backs, no erasies, no do-overs.  For your sake, I hope you're right in your beliefs (or lack of them), because then you're safe. The light will go out of your eyes and that's it. That's all she wrote. Right?

There is no science that explains what happens when you die. There is skepticism, hypothesis, and "Rational Responses", until you choke on your chicken sandwich, and your unfortunate situation was no one in the room knew the Heimlich Maneuver.  I expect ridicule. Throw all the tomatoes and rotten fruit you like, kicks and punches as well. Cut me down with big words, use the "Big Boy Voice".  Mockery will not change anything. I did not come onto this site for people to change my beliefs.  I came here to strengthen my own and to just say what I felt I needed to say.

I'm just a loony Christian, what do I know? I'm suffering from "The -Itis".  And I just want to say, I feel for all of you who do not know Christ. It pains me to know that I won't see you in paradise if you continue this course that you're on. I wish I could give you all a peace of what's in my heart, so that you could see and feel how I feel. But it's not something I can give away. It's something that everyone has to find out, on their own, through the teachings of Jesus Christ. I can only hope that your lives are long, and you get everything you want on this earth... And I can only hope that one day something will change in your hearts and you will come to know Christ. You have all the potential in the world. You could make that change tomorrow if you really wanted to. It could happen. God loves a contrite spirit. If you changed your hearts over to Christ, you'd look back on your former life in bewilderment and ask yourselves "Why did I ever think like this?". I did myself.  It's not too late. But one day it will be. I will pray for all of you.

God bless,

- Jon

 

 

 


lifewhispers
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First of all, let me say

First of all, let me say that I am an ex-Christian.  I was raised Southern Baptist and my father was a Sunday school teacher and later became a preacher.  So, I was immersed in Christianity and lived as a Christian for many years.  However, I have not been a Christian for many years - for many of the reasons cited in this very list of questions for theists (and, many others too numerous to mention).  I do not in any way subscribe to the notions of an Abrahamic God.

But, neither am I an atheist.  Atheism, agnosticism, and theism all imply belief, with respect to the existence of God.  I understand that the existence of God has nothing to do with belief, but everything to do with the tenability of the definition of "God" and the choice to embrace the construct - period.  This renders all of those labels inapplicable to myself.  I do not "believe" in God; but, I have a use for a construct of God - so, I contrived one that does not require belief or faith and is self-evident and cannot, by definition, be false.

But, I feel my experiences with and exposure to Christianity qualify me to address some of the issues raised for theists.  My goal, here, is not to convince anyone of the validity of any particular religion or religious beliefs, but rather to point out the fallacious reasoning being presented by atheists against theism.  It was through logic, reason, rationality, evidence, and/or proof that I extricated myself from Christianity by coming to see the fallacies in the religion.  And, it is through that same process that I see fallacies being presented from the other side.  So, where I am pointing out a fallacy, take it as an opportunity to sharpen your own logical and philosophical skills, rather than an outright defense of the opposing position.

Sometimes, I will employ the Abrahamic definition of God in response to the question, sometimes, I will employ my own personal definition of God as All that is True in the Universe in response to the question.  But, I will try to be clear about the definition to which I am referring.

That having been said, I will begin answering the first of several questions posed by atheists to theists:
 

Sapient wrote:

5. How can a God have emotions, i.e. jealousy, anger, sadness, love, etc., if he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent? Emotional states are reactionary for the most part. How can God react to us if he is all-knowing and has a divine plan? - IG

As I referenced, above, the existence of God is dependent on the definition of God, and whether, or not, that definition of God is tenable.  If you employ my definition of God as All that is True in the Universe, that necessarily includes everything in the Universe, including you, me, and everyone else as Parts of God in Partnership with God in the Creation of the Universe.  The knowledge that we all possess is all a part of All that is True in the Universe, or God.  And, since we have emotions, God also has emotions; because, we are a PART of God.  That is how God can be both omniscient, in that God as All that is True in the Universe encompasses all knowledge in the Universe, and also have emotions.

I'm not trying to "sell" any particular flavor of "God."  I'm just pointing out how having emotions and being omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent are not mutually exclusive; which is the fallacy being employed by the atheist, here. 

Now, employing a philosophical construct of God:

As to the "divine plan," what would be the point of going through the process of Creating the Universe, if you already knew the ultimate outcome?  If God wanted to already know the outcome, why would He have Created time?  This implies a deliberate intent on God's part to consciously avoid knowing the ultimate outcome in advance, in favor of discovering it over time, instead.

Now, this in no way renders God not omniscient - only the body of that which can be known would be a quantity that grows over time, instead of being known all at once (which isn't a condition of omniscience).  That which has not yet happened does not qualify as "knowledge."  Therefore, you cannot expect an omniscient being to know about it.

This perspective allows for God to both know all there is to know (be omniscient) and allows God to proceed through a Process of Discovery that makes the Creation of the Universe a worthwhile endeavor by maintaining the adventure and FUN of Creating the Universe.  And, if you're God, why bother Creating a Universe, unless you ENJOY it?  And, where's the fun in knowing how it will all turn out in advance?  So, wouldn't you employ time to accomplish your goals?

 

 


lifewhispers
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Sapient wrote:9. Why haven't

Sapient wrote:

9. Why haven't we seen God reattach severed heads, restore someone who was burned alive or regrow amputated limbs? Surely these would be miracles difficult to deny. - Adam Majors and IG [Note: The typical answer is that man doesn't dictate God's actions. The conundrum here however is that, if God wants us to "know" him, then surely feats such as those mentioned above would be happening all over the world. Until they do, I'll remain an atheist.]

Indeed, the fallacy committed by the theist, here, is the idea that God has a "want" or "desire"  for us to know Him.  But, being omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent dictates that God already has everything - and, therefore, can "want" for nothing.  They also ignore the fact that, for free will to truly exist, it must be a free choice to believe in God, and not forced.  "Miracles" force belief - thereby, violating free will.

Furthermore, miracles pander to a LACK of faith in God.   If faith is important to the Christian God, why would He EVER perform a single miracle?  The answer is, of course, HE WOULDN'T!  For, it is by FAITH, and not evidence, that Christians are "saved."

Of course, following this reasoning, you cannot exclude the possibility of the existence of the Christian God - all you can do is disqualify the notion that the Christian God would desire for us to know Him or perform miracles, for the reasons I cited.  That is the fallacy committed by the atheist, here - that God does not exist; because, He does not perform "miracles."  Besides, if the Creation of the Universe is not miracle enough to convince you of the existence of God, then nothing will - thereby, proving that God belief is a choice, and not based on evidence, even for the atheist.

I know, I know, you want to see some definitive sign that there is some intelligence involved in the Creation of the Universe, right?  And, you think that "miracles" will do it for you, right?  Well, you're wrong about that, too. 

Evolution stands as evidence of intelligent design - not by the Abrahamic God of Christianity, but the intelligent processes involved in it.  Evolution "knows" what works, and what doesn't.  Evolution stores what works, and discards what doesn't.  This positive ratcheting effect of evolution continually drives it to produce increasingly complex lifeforms that are constantly in the process of intelligently adapting over time.  Those that don't adapt, are eliminated.  So, you have evidence of intelligence involved in the Creation of the Universe.   But, that's not enough, is it?  You still want miracles, right?

Well, consider that, if God exists and is capable of Creating the Universe, He is capable of doing it perfectly and capable of employing physical laws that CANNOT be violated to govern it.  So, miracles would represent a violation of that perfection.  You're then left with either:

A - A God that has Created a Perfect Universe, which precludes ANY miracles that would satisfy you (leaving you with the same nebulous choice you've always had to believe in God, or not).

or

B - A God that has Created an Imperfect Universe, on which we cannot depend on being reliable in its interractions with us.

But, in all of our observations of the Universe, we have never once documented any violations of any of its physical laws.  Every time we think we have found an example, it has turned out that we were mistaken and just did not understand what was happening; so, we called them "miracles."  So, if God exists, it is clear that His Creation is perfect and incapable of having its physical laws violated to permit miracles.

So, the absence of miracles does not preclude the existence of a God capable of Creating the Universe.


Of course, if Christians were really concerned about the integrity of their religion, they would see the fallacy of including miracles in it, in the face of their God's requirement of faith from them, and excise them from the doctrines.
 

But, of course, Christians don't really have the faith they pretend to have.  If they did, they would deny miracles as an indictment of the perfection of their God and His Universe, rather than insist that they have happened and continue to happen.   They don't have faith that God Created the Universe in such a way as to be able to automatically handle anything and everything that might ever come up without the intervention of miracles.  They think that violations of that perfect Universe are necessary for God's Will to be done - or, they don't believe it is perfect.  And, what good is an imperfect God?

 


lifewhispers
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Sapient wrote:17. Why didn't

Sapient wrote:

17. Why didn't God just kill Adam and Eve after the Fall and start from scratch? Actually, if God is all-knowing wouldn't he know that man would need to be killed eventually anyway, (the biblical flood)? Why create Adam and Eve at all? - ALSCARLATA@aol.com and infidelguy@infidelguy.com ON THE GARDEN OF EDEN 1.) God is omniscient (all-knowing). 2.) God knew that before he created man that they would eat of the tree of knowledge. 3.) God placed the tree of knowledge in the Garden anyway. 4.) God wanted sin to enter the world. [Note: If God didn`t want sin to enter the world, why create Adam and Eve at all? He knew what would happen. Why place the forbidden trees in the Garden in the first place?]

The reasoning, here, is quite fallacious.  To wit:

1 - If something has not yet happened, it does not qualify as "knowledge."  Therefore, you cannot expect an omniscient being to know about it.  "Knowing" all there is to know does not include that which has not happened.  I see atheists commit this fallacious reasoning regularly in their criticisms of theists.

2 - Here is an exegesis of the story of Adam and Eve I wrote that will further explain the real message:

So, let's look at the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, and see if we can figure out the REAL message that is being presented by its author.

To accurately interpret the message, you need to try to put yourself into the story.  More specifically, you need to put yourself in God's place in the story.

Imagine that you are God, and you have the power to do anything and everything you might ever choose to do in the  Universe.  Indeed, there is nothing else except you in the entire Universe.  Just you and all this power - and, of course, all the knowledge needed to go along with all that power.

And, of course, you have Free Will.  That is, there is nothing to stop you from doing anything you would ever choose to do.  You have both the power and the knowledge to do anything you would ever choose to do - and the freedom to do it.

Yet, despite the fact that you have all of this power, and all of this knowledge, and the free will to do with it as you would choose, there is nothing else besides you in the Universe - and, therefore, no way to truly understand what it means to BE God and no way to truly appreciate what it means to have all of that power and all of that knowledge, and the freedom to do with it as you would choose.  There is still something missing - something that keeps you from being complete, something that prevents your existence from having any meaning.

"What is this something that keeps my existence from having meaning?," you ask yourself.  Of course, since you are God, and all powerful, and all knowledgeable, you quite quickly arrive at the answer to your query - the lack of EXPERIENCE is what is keeping your existence from having any real meaning.

So, in that moment, you decide to DO something about this lack of experience that gives your omnipotence and omniscience meaning.  But, what to do?

Surely, the simple exercise of omnipotence and omniscience would be, at best, a perfunctory endeavor, would it not?  Where is the CHALLENGE in merely exercising omnipotence and omniscience?  Where is the FUN in knowing that you will always succeed?  Where is the JOY in knowing the outcome of everything?

You quickly reason that the CHALLENGE and the FUN and the JOY is in the Process of Discovery - and not in the exercise of that which you have already discovered.

So, that makes your choice clear:  You must exercise your omnipotence and omniscience; but, you must do so in a way that has meaning, that has challenge, that is fun, and that brings you joy.

Of course, all there is in the Universe is YOU, God, the Great I AM, the Alpha and the Omega.  So, HOW do you proceed?  Being God, you quickly realize that, in order for you to embark on a True Process of Discovery, and in order for your existence to truly have meaning, and in order for you to Truly appreciate what it is to BE God, you must somehow figure a way to NOT know yourself as God, so that you can rediscover yourself as God, and in so doing, know what it is Truly like to BE God.

But, HOW? How does God go about making Himself into something LESS than God, so that He can truly understand what it is like to BE God?  All there IS is God!  But, being God, you quickly reason that, if you were to DIVIDE yourself into an infinite number of PIECES, the pieces would necessarily be LESS than the whole - yet there would still be nothing else but God in the Universe!  PERFECT!  It's the perfect solution!

So, you divide yourself, Creating a Here and a There, and also the Space in between Here and There.  You are now both the Thing and the NOthing, the Physical and the Metaphysical.  And, you are the Very Process of Creation.  And, you still have all power, and all knowledge - only now, it is divided into an infinite number of pieces.

Now, we have a basis, a reason, for God Creating the Universe.  And, this is important in understanding the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.  That is why I spent so much time on this seemingly unrelated tangent.

Anyway, back to the story of Adam and Eve.  God Created Adam and Eve in His image.  That is to say, they were made Creators, just as God is THE Creator.  And, God gave them dominion over all they surveyed.  And, as much as God gave Adam and Eve the power to Create, just as God has the power to Create, He also gave them the Free Will to do as they would choose to do.

Remember, God, in His omniscience and omnipotence, can choose to do whatever He would choose to do through the exercise of His free will.  And, everything God chooses to do is OF God.  So, everything that Adam and Eve would choose to do that God would choose to do would also be OF God.  But, in order for free will to truly exist, there also had to be at least one choice that was NOT of God.  There had to be at least one choice that God would never make.  And, there would have to be a reason why He would not make it.

At this point, it is important to take notice of the conditions under which Adam and Eve lived.  All around them was at Peace.  All was in Harmony with everything else.  And, God had told them that they were in dominion over all of the earth.

Now, in the midst of the Garden, God had placed the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and told Adam and Eve not to partake of its fruit.  Let's look at that for a moment, shall we?

Why was it the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil that was proscribed?

In order to understand that choice, we must understand a little about the concepts of good and evil.  Obviously, good and evil are subjective concepts; but, it would be fair to say, in the context of a discussion about God, that "good" represents the choices that we make that are OF God, that is to say choices that God would make.  And, it would be fair to say that "evil" represents choices that we make that are NOT of God, or choices that God would not make.

Clearly, that would make anything that God would ever choose to do "good." And, it would make everything God would not choose to do "evil."  And, obviously, anything we do that is like what God would do is "good," and anything we do that is not like what God would do is "evil."

Now, let's look at the fact that Adam and Eve were given only one commandment - not to eat of the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.  They were not told not to do anything else - period.  Obviously, partaking of the Fruit of the Tree is the ONE choice that God would never make.  It represents the one choice that is NOT of God that is necessary for Free Will to truly exist.

So, what is the Fruit of that Tree?  I find it rather amusing that there has been discussion about the fruit of the Tree being an apple, or a fig, or some other kind of actual fruit.  It is quite obvious what the Fruit of the Tree is - it is JUDGEMENT of things as being either Good or Evil.  For, you cannot know whether something is Good or Evil, unless you JUDGE it as such.  So, the Fruit of the Tree is JUDGEMENT.  And, the story in Genesis makes it clear that partaking of that fruit is the one choice that is NOT of God.

So, why might God have not wanted Adam and Eve to partake of the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?  You would think that knowing what was "good" and what was "evil" would be of benefit, wouldn't you?  But, is it really?

What happens whenever you judge the actions of someone as being "wrong" or "evil?"  Do you not find yourself in conflict with that person?  Do you not also find yourself forming other negative emotions and impressions of that person?  Are you in harmony with those who you have judged as "evil?"  Can you ever reconcile or find harmony with those who you have judged as "evil?"

Let's look at this concept from the opposite angle:  What happens when you judge someone as "good?"  Do you not also find yourself forming other positive emotions and impressions of that person?  Are you in harmony with those you have judged as "good?"

But, is the person you have judged as "evil" all evil?  Or, are there only certain things they have done that are "evil?"  What if they have also done things that are "good?"

And, is the person you have judged as "good" all good?  Or, are there only certain things they have done that are "good?"  What if they have also done things that are "evil?"

This brings up the point that both the concepts of "good" and "evil" are illusory in nature.  We are all capable of doing both "good" things and "evil" things.  Yet, when we choose to judge people as "evil" we are blinded to the "good" things they do; and, when we choose to judge people as "good" we are blinded to the "evil" things they do.

And, who gets to decide what is "good" and what is "evil," and for whom?  What happens when our ideas about what is "good" and what is "evil" are at variance?  Do we not find ourselves in conflict with those who disagree with our subjective ideas about "good" and "evil?"  How can we ever resolve conflict with those who judge "good" and "evil" differently than we judge "good" and "evil?"

So, God knew, in His infinite wisdom, that the knowledge of Good and Evil would bring us confict - that would remain with us all of the days of our lives, as long as we continue to partake of the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil,

From the moment Adam and Eve partook of the Fruit of the Tree, there existed what had not existed before - conflict.  God was in perfect harmony with Himself - and all of His Pieces.  Never before had anything ever been judged as either "good" or "evil," and therefore, there had never been any conflict.

Now, all of a sudden, Adam and Eve realized they were naked, and covered their nakedness.  They judged their naked bodies as "evil," and placed themselves in conflict with themselves - just as they judged their actions as "evil" by partaking of the Fruit of the Tree, which placed them in conflict with God.  Not because, God judged them for their actions, but because they had judged themselves for their actions - they now "knew" the difference between "good" and "evil" - even though it was a choice that was not of God.

Now, according to the story, God was not pleased about Adam and Eve partaking of the Fruit of the Tree.  But, it was not because He was angry with them for disobeying.  It was because He knew the conflict that would ensue and plague mankind forever more - until mankind could learn how to stop partaking of the Fruit of the Tree.

This message about the problems with judgement are echoed through the teachings of Jesus Christ, as well.  Indeed, when we examine the message of Unconditional Love, we discover that Unconditional Love does not judge.  For, what is judgement, if not a condition we have placed on Love?  We will never Love someone as long as we judge them as "evil."

In taking upon ourselves the Knowledge of Good and Evil, we have erected a barrier to Love.  We have erected a barrier to God.

The good news, or dare I say "Gospel," is that there is a simple way to tear down the barrier.  And, that is to simply stop partaking of the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil by refusing to engage in the illusions of "Good" and "Evil."  The reality is that neither Good, nor Evil, exist.  There only exists actions, feelings, and thoughts which serve us, both individually and collectively, and actions, feelings, and thoughts which do not serve us, both individually and collectively.  We need not judge things as either good or evil to discern what serves us both individually and collectively, and what does not.

This is a powerful message.  It is a profound message, and one that strikes at the heart of the problems facing the world today.  It represents the difference between assessing things as they are, while making objective decisions based on logic, reason, and rationality for the benefit of us all, and assessing things as we judge them to be, while making subjective, emotional decisions based on our determinations about "good" and "evil."

Understanding the problems of judging things as either "good" or "evil" is absolutely essential to understanding the nature of Unconditional Love and how to achieve it.

Interestingly enough, it does not matter whether one believes in God, or not, for this message to be valid.  Of course, the best messages in the Universe are like that.

 

 


mjb
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Here's an Interesting Video

I won't be commenting much on these arguments. It's pretty much pointless. It's like debating if wind exists or doesn't exist.

I found an interesting video I want to share with you guys. I honestley don't care if any of you want to make fun of it or hack it to pieces.

I know where I'm going when I die and I'm looking forward to eternity. This video sheds some light on that.

God Bless,

 

watch video

www.achange.ca

http://jlandbirk.blogspot.com

jlandbirk@gmail.com


lifewhispers
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mjb wrote:I won't be

mjb wrote:

I won't be commenting much on these arguments. It's pretty much pointless. It's like debating if wind exists or doesn't exist.

I found an interesting video I want to share with you guys. I honestley don't care if any of you want to make fun of it or hack it to pieces.

I know where I'm going when I die and I'm looking forward to eternity. This video sheds some light on that.

God Bless,

 

watch video

www.achange.ca

http://jlandbirk.blogspot.com

jlandbirk@gmail.com

Thanks, for the drive-by proselytizing!  Buh bye, now!

Don't let the doorknob hit you where the good Lord split ya!


muslim (not verified)
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if God knows who the sinners are why does he create them?

hi, you said in among your questions since God is the All-knower why does he create people who disobey him. this question is tied to the meaning of life. I believe God didnt just create good people to worship him, but he created everyone to test them if they will believe in the One who created them along with this world. It is said many times in muslim texts God doesnt need you, you need Him. therefore, you are created so you can be tested whether you will believe in God or not and be a good person. If you are good you get a good reward, paradise,and if you are bad you go to hell. But before you go anywhere you are judged by God for every single thing you did in your life. that is why God created sinners.


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You believe God created

You believe God created people who's only fate is to be tortured for eternity?  What kind of monster is he?

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov


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muslim wrote:hi, you said in

muslim wrote:

hi, you said in among your questions since God is the All-knower why does he create people who disobey him. this question is tied to the meaning of life. I believe God didnt just create good people to worship him, but he created everyone to test them if they will believe in the One who created them along with this world. It is said many times in muslim texts God doesnt need you, you need Him. therefore, you are created so you can be tested whether you will believe in God or not and be a good person. If you are good you get a good reward, paradise,and if you are bad you go to hell. But before you go anywhere you are judged by God for every single thing you did in your life. that is why God created sinners.

Ah, the "god is testing us" answer. Here's the problems with this response:

- If God is all knowing there's no point in him testing you since he already knows whether or not you're going to pass before you're born. Furthermore if God is all knowing and perfect then you can never act in a way that goes against God's knowledge, meaning that you have no free will if God truly has these characteristics (not necessarily as a direct result of God's nature but because determinism would be required in order for God to have perfect knowledge). And if you have no free will then its completely illogical to test you since you don't have any real choices or any say in the matter. In fact its more than illogical, its sadistic since God is sending people to hell for circumstances beyond their control.

- Even assuming God has his reasons for making people go through said test it still doesn't explain why he sets some people up to fail while he sets others up for success. Its no secret that the religion you grow up with is what you'll probably follow for the rest of your life. So why is it that God insists on forcing people to be born in non-(insert your religion here) areas of the world? Why is it that god makes people gay (if you believe that's a sin)? Why does God kill babies during/immediately after birth (if you believe in original sin)? Its not like they even had a chance to pass his test. On the flipside why is it that God allows some people to be born straight into a (insert your religion here) family? And don't give me the usual "those who pass harder tests get better rewards in heaven" BS because that's unfair too. A person doesn't get to pick which life circumstance they're born into. Why should they be doomed to a lesser reward or greater risk?


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I'd like to entertain you

I'd like to entertain you all with a story that explains this problem.

 

You have two children. You say to yourself about one, "he is going to do everything I expect and even if he fails in that, he will always ask for my forgiveness. To him I will give him all my riches and love.  The other, who I have sent to the orphanage, will claim to not know me and will insult me. I will hunt him down and stick red hot pokers in his eyes until he is dead."

 

Now, since you are human, you can claim you know this for sure and you may or may not be right. However, if it just happens to work out the way you imagine, then you have experienced omniscience (at least with regard to these items).

 

That is, if I claim I will roll a six, and "know" I will roll a six, if a six is rolled, I am essentially omniscient in the way people claim God is (except he is always right about everything).

 

So, the Theist is like the guy with two kids: he claims that he will torture and kill one of them for something - and knows that that something will occur.

 

To all the Theists, you too can imagine you are God for a while: pick one kid and say "to you I will give you all my riches because you will praise me. Pick another and say, "It saddens me but I will have to torture and kill you. Sorry those are the rules that I must abide by."  Unless things work out otherwise, you can be sure in your knowledge that you are right - they will fullfill exactly as you claim.

 

This is the god you worship.

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov


Mitchell (not verified)
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Alright

OK, seriously. I don't have the time or the inclination to sit down you people with your heads in the sand and actually go through these questions one by one, because from experience I know it will do absolutely no good - a firm non-believer is usually just as set in their ways as any jihadist burning infidels. To be quite honest, I am slightly insulted by the fact that you pose these questions with such a patronising and mocking underlying tone, with the obvious attitude that "There's no way anyone who believes in GOD could actually be intelligent enough to refute our points *smug annoying smile*." However, from briefly glancing over your questions, a few points jump out at me that may resolve a number of them [or not, depending upon how anal-retentive and pedantic you wish to be about answers you accept].

1. Perhaps you're having trouble comprehending the concept of INFINITY. You know, the funny thing that looks like an 8 on its side? I'm sure your university degree in arrogant ignorance taught you at least that. Thing is, humanity cannot comprehend the infinite nature of Gods personality, or the greatness of heaven, etc., etc. The Bible explicitly states, I can't remember where, that we cannot comprehend God, because "my ways are so much higher than your ways". Whilst we may be made in his image, there's infinite [see, there's that word again] levels of magnitude separating us. So until you manage to grasp how big infinity is, which will never actually happen unless you happen to be God himself, you've really got to try a bit harder.

2. A lot of the issues you seem to be raising deal with the interpretation of the Bible by humans causing problems. Whilst God may be perfect, clearly [to even the most mentally deficient observer], mankind is not. His word is perfect, but the way many Christians read it is not. THAT is why we get bigots, and religious nuts, and Arab-burning extremists. And if you believe that atheism doesn't have its own dickheads, you are even stupider than you look.

3. Whilst I think every point you've made can be suitably refuted and chastened by a sufficient Biblical and scientific understanding, I really think you're being much too attentive to detail. You're like the little kid who sits up the back of the class correcting the grammar on the notes his friends are passing through him. You're just likely to never have any friends, and possibly get the crap kicked out of you for being an utter tossbag prickstick jerk-off toolface retard asswipe fag. Seriously, it really doesn't matter overly to the concept of a divine beings existence and eternal salvation how many children were killed by she-bears in the old testament, and you're only serving to annoy people. Get a life.

4. I realise this has very little logic or relevance, but you've pissed me off so much I have to vent it somehow. You suck, I doubt you have a girlfriend and your mother is a prostitute.  I doubt anything I've said will have any impact upon you and your deeply entrenched prejudices, but I do hope it does, and you'll stop spouting your textual diarrhoea on the net and give some serious consideration to religion, apart form looking for criticism or approaching it like a parent shown a four year olds drawing of a tree.


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someone's a negative

someone's a negative nancy

and the problem I have with your statement #1 Mitchell, I hear alot of Christians(and others) say this. But there is no argument here, the argument they try to throw out is "god is beyond our understanding, therefore he exists". Well, what if I say "Hogwarts is beyond our understanding, therefore Harry Potter is real"? You can go to England, look all around the country, and not find Hogwarts, but because it is beyond your human understanding, it exists, just like god. The argument means nothing.


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Mitchell wrote:OK,

Mitchell wrote:

OK, seriously. I don't have the time or the inclination to sit down you people with your heads in the sand and actually go through these questions one by one, because from experience I know it will do absolutely no good - a firm non-believer is usually just as set in their ways as any jihadist burning infidels. To be quite honest, I am slightly insulted by the fact that you pose these questions with such a patronising and mocking underlying tone, with the obvious attitude that "There's no way anyone who believes in GOD could actually be intelligent enough to refute our points *smug annoying smile*." However, from briefly glancing over your questions, a few points jump out at me that may resolve a number of them [or not, depending upon how anal-retentive and pedantic you wish to be about answers you accept].

1. Perhaps you're having trouble comprehending the concept of INFINITY. You know, the funny thing that looks like an 8 on its side? I'm sure your university degree in arrogant ignorance taught you at least that. Thing is, humanity cannot comprehend the infinite nature of Gods personality, or the greatness of heaven, etc., etc. The Bible explicitly states, I can't remember where, that we cannot comprehend God, because "my ways are so much higher than your ways". Whilst we may be made in his image, there's infinite [see, there's that word again] levels of magnitude separating us. So until you manage to grasp how big infinity is, which will never actually happen unless you happen to be God himself, you've really got to try a bit harder.

2. A lot of the issues you seem to be raising deal with the interpretation of the Bible by humans causing problems. Whilst God may be perfect, clearly [to even the most mentally deficient observer], mankind is not. His word is perfect, but the way many Christians read it is not. THAT is why we get bigots, and religious nuts, and Arab-burning extremists. And if you believe that atheism doesn't have its own dickheads, you are even stupider than you look.

3. Whilst I think every point you've made can be suitably refuted and chastened by a sufficient Biblical and scientific understanding, I really think you're being much too attentive to detail. You're like the little kid who sits up the back of the class correcting the grammar on the notes his friends are passing through him. You're just likely to never have any friends, and possibly get the crap kicked out of you for being an utter tossbag prickstick jerk-off toolface retard asswipe fag. Seriously, it really doesn't matter overly to the concept of a divine beings existence and eternal salvation how many children were killed by she-bears in the old testament, and you're only serving to annoy people. Get a life.

4. I realise this has very little logic or relevance, but you've pissed me off so much I have to vent it somehow. You suck, I doubt you have a girlfriend and your mother is a prostitute.  I doubt anything I've said will have any impact upon you and your deeply entrenched prejudices, but I do hope it does, and you'll stop spouting your textual diarrhoea on the net and give some serious consideration to religion, apart form looking for criticism or approaching it like a parent shown a four year olds drawing of a tree.

1. This argument means nothing. God has shown himself to be far less than perfect throughout the bible. He loses his temper, he kills, he tortures, he makes really big mistakes, he's lazy, he's narcissistic...even supposing this being is so much more wise than us it still doesn't explain his enormous double standards. It's wrong for us to kill out of anger but for him it's just fine and dandy. It's wrong for us to have big egos but for God that's just fine ("WORSHIP ME!!!" ). Even if God does exist why the hell are you worshiping him? Because he saved you from you sins? The sins that he himself commits but that he dictated were sins? Is it because he saved you from hell, the very same hell that he created? This was the point of the bear question: If you God is so nice then why does he do such evil things?

2. As for your argument here, yeah, man is imperfect. But shouldn't God have said something like "whoa there! I never said that! You mind taking all that stuff about slavery, gays, and stoning kids out of your manuscript please? It's not good for my image". For a being that's "infinitely intelligent" he sure does suck at proofreading.
 

"you are even stupider than you look" - "Stupider" is not a word. The phrase you were looking for was "more stupid". Gee, that sure is an embarrassing grammatical mistake. I hope you don't keep trying to insult our intelligence because that would be...

3. "utter tossbag prickstick jerk-off toolface retard asswipe fag"...humiliating...Tell me, at what point did you think flinging insults would be convincing argument? Are you in middle school? Or do you have some kind of bizarre form of tourette's syndrome where you type out your ticks? Or are you so mentally deficient that you have to resort to childish insults to convey your message since you are incapable of conveying it by any other means? I think that's the case since from here on out all you do is throw insults. And you're right about none of this having an impact because all you did was fling insults. How is that supposed to change our minds? Oh, and we didn't piss you off, you pissed yourself off. It's not our fault you have a severe emotional reaction when you see your religion being critically examined. This is a serious examination of religion. If you believe that it isn't then go ahead and prove us wrong, answer our questions and show us why the problems that have been listed aren't problems at all. But I know you can't do that. Why? Because if you could have you would have done so rather than launch into a series of insults.


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Anyway, I thought I'd play

Anyway, I thought I'd play devil's advocate for a minute and answer some of the questions that I think can be easily answered:

3. The "out of Africa" theory still has some problems associated with it and there are competing theories. As a result its probably best to the give benefit of a doubt.

4. I've asked this question before and gotten the answer that heaven is more or less like being super-high the entire time. Personally I think it's a bit of a con if you're forced to feel happy but hey, its an answer. If you want to argue that that's pretty lame like I did when I heard it told to me, fine, but that doesn't change the fact that this question has an answer (no matter how bullshit)

7. I've thought about this before and I think the only logical explanation is that God considers it worse for a being to never exist than to exist and suffer. This explains why A) he created Satan, B) no being is ever wiped from existence for any reason. Instead he created Hell as a punishment. God may also hold Minority Report view (best way I could think of to describe it) in that a being isn't guilty of sin until they commit it. Other possible explanation may be that God is unable to erase something from existence  or prevent something from existing though at that point he isn't omnipotent (which isn't too far fetched. Satan's rebellion implies that God is not as powerful or immortal as he claims to be).

10. Not to refute this one but a better question may add on the fact that God has never spoken directly to more than one person. Throughout the Bible it's always *one* person who claims that he has spoken with God. Today we consider such people "con men", "cult leaders", or "schizophrenic".

13. Because apparently God is cool with incest. Remember Adam and Eve's kids? Or Noah's kids? If anything God keeps trying to find ways to make people have sex with their family members. Christianity is supposed to make families stronger after all, and what could make a family closer to each other than for your mother and sister to be bearing your babies? That or God is into incest...like really into incest.

15. God's atemporality and omniscience are not at odds. Rather his atemporality explains his omniscience. If God exists in the past, present, and future all at once then it's not surprising that he is knowledge of all those things. In other words all of time is the present for God. There's some philosopher who goes into a lot more detail about this (I can't remember his name though unfortunately).

18. Christianity never explains the nature of a spirit as a result it's pointless to ask questions about it. I know, this is pretty much saying "you're not allowed to ask questions about that!" but it's not like you're ever going to get any answers and it's not like you'll ever be able to disprove it with logic since there's nothing to apply logic to.

21. Just to add to this question, what about the multitude of skyscrapers around the world? For some reason I'm willing to bet that the Taipei 101 tower is just a wee bit taller than anything an ancient civilization could have built.

26. Not really a question pertaining to the bible, but I thought I'd just throw out a joke I once heard "If America is so blessed then why did God put all the oil underneath the people that hate us?"

28. Don't forget that the diluted salinity levels in the seas and the increased salinity levels in the freshwater would have killed every aquatic lifeform.

29. Earth wouldn't get flung into outer space in such a scenario. That's just preposterous. Doesn't change the fact that the flood myth couldn't have possibly happened. For example, wouldn't 372 inches/hour be more or less a waterfall? How would Noah's boat have even stayed afloat?

31. I'm not too knowledgeable on the Bible but doesn't it say that Jesus gathers everyone around the Earth to him?

35. I think this is the third time I've seen this type of question. It's a good question (even though it can be answered easily by just saying that God feels nonexistence is worse than suffering) but there's no need to list it multiple times, especially considering how intimidating the tower of text we currently have is.

42. He still technically died. Granted it's not much of a sacrifice if you don't stay dead but apparently that's all God needed.

51. This is actually one of the bigger issues I've found with Christianity. If God is all powerful there shouldn't have ever been a rebellion in heaven or any war thereafter. Satan should have never been able to corrupt Eden. Furthermore it's extremely illogical for Satan and 1/3 of the angels to have rebelled against a being that, if His claims are true, would have been able to blink them out of existence before they even did anything, to say nothing of how it illogical it would be to rebel against an immortal being. Furthermore how could there even be fighting with heavenly beings are supposed to be immortal? The only answer that I can think of is that God is not fully omnipotent, omniscient, and possibly not even immortal (that or Satan and 1/3 of the other angels had such enormous egos or gripes with God that they would have preferred death/nonexistence over spending another second under his rule, in which case it seems God isn't a very popular fellow). Really the Bible never even says what makes Satan so evil, just that he is (maybe it's the whole "tried to kill God" thing but how does that affect anyone else but God?).

53. Mental disorders have to be abnormal behavior. Religious belief is too commonplace to be abnormal. Indeed, delusions are sometimes left undiagnosed when they fit inside a cultural context.

58. I think its pretty obvious that by "image" the Bible means a physical likeness. This is completely unsurprising when you consider that most deity worshiping religions worship a humanoid god. While the forms that such gods may take may be a bit bizarre (having the head of an eagle, having a blue body and multiple arms, etc) the base design is always that of a human. Just goes to show the psychology of religion. Humanity is to egotistical to be wiling to worship an explicitly non-human being. That or just unable to. Also, just to note, it's very possible God could have genitalia. The old testament talks about how fallen angels had intercourse with human women to produce half-angel/half-human offspring which implies that angels also have genitalia. Now since angels, as far as we know, don't have any reason to have intercourse with each other it wouldn't be too illogical to think that God would also have genitalia (considering he refers to himself as a male). Of course, "image" could mean that we only resemble God not that we're an exact duplicate.

63. Conveniently for God Hell is completely cutoff from him (I believe that the Bible even states that the suffering in Hell is entirely comprised of being cutoff from God) which has the result that God doesn't have to look at the results of what he's done.

64. I've always been under the impression that Judaism first appeared around 5000-3000 BC with the various legends and traditions that later formed the basis for the religion existing before then. So the literacy problem wouldn't have been issue I don't think. What would have though is the fact that Hinduism is 10,000 years old, a good 5,000 more than Judaism, to say nothing of the multitude of religions that existed prior to that.

66. I suggest you read some of De Sade's works. His opinion concerning morality/religion is my favorite that I've heard thus far. Basically religion is just a way for people incapable of doing anything significant with their lives to feel empowered. Basically "I can deprive myself of my desires therefore I'm better than nature!". Hence the reason religions tend to be against sex, gluttony, and accumulation of wealth while encouraging abstinence, fasting, charity, and sacrifice.

67. Forget SIDS, what about stillborn babies? I thought God was against abortion.

84. Yet another "why does god let people who are going to hell exist?" question. Do people even read this topic anymore before submitting questions?

85. It's not. Christianity states that all sins are equal (except for blasphemy. You know, because God has feelings too).

86. How did this question even get in this topic? There's another question earlier on that even shows why this one is stupid. Fish come in three varieties: Saltwater, freshwater, and hybrids that can survive in a mix of salt and freshwater. Think about it for a second: if you flood the entire world then two things happen: 1) the oceans and seas become diluted with freshwater thus killing off all saltwater life. 2) The seas and oceans eventually flood into the freshwater areas, killing off all freshwater life (I'm assuming that the salinity levels would still be high enough to kill off freshwater life while low enough to kill off saltwater life). I don't know what would happen to the fish that can survive in both types of water but that doesn't matter because there's so few of them anyway. The greater question is how did Noah save all the sealife in the world? He would have not only needed the biggest ship ever created in human history (created in 3000 BC no less) but he would have also needed to have the most advanced aquarium ever created as well. To give you an idea of how advanced he would have not only needed water filters, large tanks, chemicals to keep nitrite and ammonia levels in check, meters to tell him when to treat the water, etc., but he also would have needed pressurized tanks in order to keep deep sea life alive. Needless to say this is completely impossible for a person living back in Noah's time.

Anyway, those are the questions that I felt had an answer. While I know some of them are a bit of a cop-out you can't really attack the cop-out since there's nothing to attack it with. I'm pretty much trying to give Christianity as much of a handicap as possible (I have writer's block now so I can't think of a better word to use) if only because it helps to shut theists up and get them focused on the problems that they can't defend without invoking the ol' "God is beyond our understanding". Also, someone really needs to trim down the original post because that thing takes forever to load.

Finally, here's a question I want to add: How do you explain the Epic of Gilgamesh? For those who don't know, the Epic of Gilgamesh is an ancient flood story that greatly predates the Biblical one. Because I don't want to type the whole thing out here's a link to wiki's entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_gilgamesh. Note that this story has been tracked by historians through various mutations up to and including the version in the Bible. And here's the kicker: the Epic of Gilgamesh isn't even the original flood myth. It was based off the Babylonian Epic of Atra-Hasis. Funny thing too: as these stories keep getting retold the new versions get more epic. At first the flood myths are modest, just a localized flood and the man and his family are on their boat by accident when the flood waters come. Then it keeps mutating until you end up a guy who gets told by his god of an impending worldwide flood.


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Mitchell wrote:OK,

Mitchell wrote:

OK, seriously. I don't have the time or the inclination to sit down you people with your heads in the sand and actually go through these questions one by one, because from experience I know it will do absolutely no good - a firm non-believer is usually just as set in their ways as any jihadist burning infidels. To be quite honest, I am slightly insulted by the fact that you pose these questions with such a patronising and mocking underlying tone, with the obvious attitude that "There's no way anyone who believes in GOD could actually be intelligent enough to refute our points *smug annoying smile*." However, from briefly glancing over your questions, a few points jump out at me that may resolve a number of them [or not, depending upon how anal-retentive and pedantic you wish to be about answers you accept].

1. Perhaps you're having trouble comprehending the concept of INFINITY. You know, the funny thing that looks like an 8 on its side? I'm sure your university degree in arrogant ignorance taught you at least that. Thing is, humanity cannot comprehend the infinite nature of Gods personality, or the greatness of heaven, etc., etc. The Bible explicitly states, I can't remember where, that we cannot comprehend God, because "my ways are so much higher than your ways". Whilst we may be made in his image, there's infinite [see, there's that word again] levels of magnitude separating us. So until you manage to grasp how big infinity is, which will never actually happen unless you happen to be God himself, you've really got to try a bit harder.

2. A lot of the issues you seem to be raising deal with the interpretation of the Bible by humans causing problems. Whilst God may be perfect, clearly [to even the most mentally deficient observer], mankind is not. His word is perfect, but the way many Christians read it is not. THAT is why we get bigots, and religious nuts, and Arab-burning extremists. And if you believe that atheism doesn't have its own dickheads, you are even stupider than you look.

3. Whilst I think every point you've made can be suitably refuted and chastened by a sufficient Biblical and scientific understanding, I really think you're being much too attentive to detail. You're like the little kid who sits up the back of the class correcting the grammar on the notes his friends are passing through him. You're just likely to never have any friends, and possibly get the crap kicked out of you for being an utter tossbag prickstick jerk-off toolface retard asswipe fag. Seriously, it really doesn't matter overly to the concept of a divine beings existence and eternal salvation how many children were killed by she-bears in the old testament, and you're only serving to annoy people. Get a life.

4. I realise this has very little logic or relevance, but you've pissed me off so much I have to vent it somehow. You suck, I doubt you have a girlfriend and your mother is a prostitute.  I doubt anything I've said will have any impact upon you and your deeply entrenched prejudices, but I do hope it does, and you'll stop spouting your textual diarrhoea on the net and give some serious consideration to religion, apart form looking for criticism or approaching it like a parent shown a four year olds drawing of a tree.

 

I'm glad this Xian has so much problem with the questions.

 

The minute I start agreeing with someone who worships a rapist and convicted criminal is a sad day for me!

 

(Oh, btw, I am referring to God who (allegedly) raped Mary, and Jesus, who was convicted of his crimes.) Eye-wink

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov


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How literal are 'faith' and 'belief'?

Are all of Jesus' disciples in Hell along with everyone else who witnessed His execution and resurrection?  For how can one "believe" or "have faith" in what one knows?

"I've yet to witness circumstance successfully manipulated through the babbling of ritualistic nonsense to an imaginary deity." -- me (josh)

If god can do anything, can he make a hot dog so big even he can't eat all of it?


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That was amazing

I haven't seen a more comprehensive list of excellent questions. I like how you all made sure to question both bible literalists and liberals. How can a  sane Christian read that and not be embarrassed by hypocrisy?


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 1. If Jesus fulfilled all

 

1. If Jesus fulfilled all the OT prophecies so well, why didn't the Jews recognize him as the messiah? - Francois Tremblay

The Jews were looking for the Messiah to come in a different form. They were waiting for a conquering king instead of a suffering servant.

5. How can a God have emotions, i.e. jealousy, anger, sadness, love, etc., if he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent? Emotional states are reactionary for the most part. How can God react to us if he is all-knowing and has a divine plan? - IG [Note: Indeed, many religious texts display their gods this way . Listen to the An Emotional Godshow.]

You can know something’s going to happen and still react to it. A parent KNOWS that their kid will move out when they reach 18 years or older, are they not sad when it finally comes? They are. They weren’t expecting their kid to live with them forever, so why are they sad? Because emotions aren’t strictly reactionary.

32. The Bible says that God is a jealous God . How is this an example of a moral absolute of which man is supposed to follow? - IG ON GOD`S JEALOUSY
1.) "God is love." 1 John 4:8.
2.) "Love is not jealous." 1 Cor 13:4
3.) "I, the Lord thy God, am a jealous God." Exodus 20:5.
4.) The Christian god cannot logically exist.
(NOte: Basically love is NOT jealous, yet god is jealous, then God can`t be love. But if god IS love he cannot be jealous. Be he is.)

First, “Love is not jealous” is a descriptive of human love. God has the right to be jealous because technically everything belongs to Him. People have no right to be jealous because nothing belongs to them. Not only that, but when God is jealous, He is jealous for you. When people are jealous, it is of someone.

37. Isaiah 40:28 says, "...the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is he weary?" If this is true, why did God rest on the seventh day?- IG

He was setting a precedent for the Sabbath.

42. Some say Jesus was the all-knowing God. Jesus would have known then that when he died he'd be in heaven in less than 3 days to rule. If Jesus is alive and ruling today, what did he sacrifice? -- Cyndy Hammond

He sacrificed His life. He was mercilessly beaten and crucified. Blood is what covers sin. Since everyone sins, everyone is guilty and earning of death. In order to not receive death, something must die in your place. That is why they sacrificed lambs in the Old Testament. Jesus was blameless, as He did not sin, which is why He is known as the perfect Lamb. He experienced death until His resurrection.

46. If God has such a tremendous problem with uncircumcised penises, why did he make man with foreskin in the first place? - IG [Note: Some say, "So God can recognize his chosen people." Recognize? Is God so stupid that he has to physically look at men's penises? If not God, do other men need to? lol.]

Circumcision was a covenant between God and man. It was a physical acknowledgment by man of his covenant with God. It wasn’t a reminder for God; it was an acknowledgment by people.

49. How did Jesus ascend to Heaven in the Flesh when Paul says that flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of Heaven? (1 Cor.15:50) - IG [Note: Some say, well Paul said that and not Jesus. Yet they quote Paul when it suits there purposes.]

Paul is speaking about what it takes to inherit the kingdom of God. He means that there isn’t physical action that can be taken to inherit the kingdom of God. Doing things, such as good deeds, isn’t what gets you into heaven. 1 Cor. 15:53 “For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with the immortality.” People are mortal. The only way to conquer death is through the One who conquered death, Jesus. Salvation is by the spirit, not the flesh.

57. If God was Jesus' father (not Joseph), then why is Jesus' family tree traced through Joseph? -- Cyndy Hammond

Because genealogy is traced through the man’s side of the family.

58. What image of God was man made from? Couldn't have been a moral one or physical one. - IG [Note: One would suspect that an image of God would be perfect and cannot sin. Oops.]

The key is “image of God”. We are not God. Think about science-fiction movies that have robots that perform human tasks. They are made in the “image of people”, but they don’t have 100% of the same attributes of a person. The same can be said in real life for any machine that is meant to be humanlike.

68. If Jesus was nailed and died on Friday evening, and walked out of the tomb on Sunday morning, where's the 3rd NIGHT he predicted? Per Matthew 12:40: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. - buckcash@buckcash.com

Your question is based on the assumption that Jewish time is the same as ours, which it is not.

69. Many Christians claim that hell is merely existence outside of God ?s presence (C.S. Lewis among others). If this is the case, then Jesus could not have descended into hell (being God Himself). As a result, are you sure your sins are forgiven? - Byron Bultsma

Hell is not merely the existence outside of God’s presence. Hell is an actual place.

73. Christians will tell you that if a baby dies it goes to heaven. Why then are they so against abortion? All the child is being deprived of is the opportunity to go to hell. Either that or god expects unborn fetuses to accept Jesus. - dissolvedego@satannet.org

Anyone who is against abortion is because it’s murder. Why is killing someone in the first 9 months not murder, but killing someone after 9 months is murder? To say that abortion is not murder doesn’t make sense; otherwise there would be no point to it. The purpose is to end a life.

78. Consciousness is the result of a physical brain, how could God being metaphysical be said to be conscious or sentient without having a brain? - Mindless

This is apples and oranges. God is in the spiritual realm, we are in the physical realm. God is not bound to what He creates by what He is. It’s not like He has to sit there and be like “well I don’t have a physical brain, so I won’t give people one either.” People are different from fish that are different from birds that are different from bugs that are different from lions and elephants and dogs and cats. God is not a machine in a factory that has to spit out the same thing every time. There’s no limit on what or how He creates something.


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 I noticed there were

 

I noticed there were questions that dealt with the same topic, so instead of addressing each one individually, I will answer them by topic.

 

Free will vs. God’ will

God has plans, but He also gives free will. Allowing something to happen doesn’t mean you want it to happen:

Example: Let’s say that I’m a parent. My plan, hope, desire etc. is that my child will go to college and get a good education. Does the allowance of my child to choose whatever he or she wants to do negate what I want? No. If my child doesn’t go to school, it is not logical to say “Well, you didn’t want him or her to go to school. That must have been your plan all along.” God has a plan, but He also gives people the freedom to reject it. If they do, doesn’t mean He wanted them to all along.

 

Suffering

Matthew 13:24-30

I would be happy to provide further explanation if needed.

 

Proof of God

Romans 1:20 “For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”

Proof of God is all around. Rejection or ignoring that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

 

Hearing about Jesus

People claim that there are people who have never heard of Jesus. The only way to know this to be true for certain is to meet someone who has never heard of Jesus. However, the only way to find out that they’ve never heard of Him is by His name coming up. Once His name has come up, they’ve heard about Him. Now that’s just a technicality answer, not the full one that covers everything.


The full answer lies in the previous topic “Proof of God.” There is proof of God all around. If you acknowledge that and seek Him out, you will find Him. Creation points to God, God points to what Jesus did. Follow the trail and you will find out the truth.

 

Bible: Literal vs. Allegorical/Parables

The Bible is meant to be taken literally. Are there metaphorical parts? Yes. But that doesn’t mean the whole book is. It is easy to tell what is metaphorical and what is not. Often times Jesus spoke in parables. He did this because it separates the ones who have a genuine interest in God and ones who have a superficial faith in God. If you wanted to know the answers to what He meant, you would seek them out. If you don’t care enough to do so, then you have just proven how much value you care about God.

 

Old Law: Under it or not?

Jesus said Himself that He did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. We are still under the law of the Old Law, but not under the punishment that came with it. Jesus took the punishment for us. This is why people see “picking in choosing”. We don’t stone anyone because the punishment was fulfilled by Jesus. We still say that homosexuality is a sin because that is not a punishment. We are still accountable by what laws we break, we are not subject to the punishment if we allow Jesus to stand in our place.

 


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j_day wrote:Proof of God

j_day wrote:

Proof of God

Romans 1:20 “For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”

Proof of God is all around. Rejection or ignoring that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

Quoting someone saying 'of course God exists, it's so obvious!' isn't proof. Claiming 'proof is all around' isn't proof. Cite some, please.

Quote:
 

Hearing about Jesus

People claim that there are people who have never heard of Jesus. The only way to know this to be true for certain is to meet someone who has never heard of Jesus. However, the only way to find out that they’ve never heard of Him is by His name coming up. Once His name has come up, they’ve heard about Him. Now that’s just a technicality answer, not the full one that covers everything.


The full answer lies in the previous topic “Proof of God.” There is proof of God all around. If you acknowledge that and seek Him out, you will find Him. Creation points to God, God points to what Jesus did. Follow the trail and you will find out the truth.

And the people who lived in, say, what is now Ireland, during the lifetime of Abraham or Jacob? Did creation all around them point to what Jesus hadn't done, hadn't been prophecied about, etc?

"Och, Dhugal! I saw a bee on a flower. I think some bloke in palestine's gonna get hisself nailed to a tree fer me in about fifteen hundred years!"

Not for nothing, but if God's an all-powerful Creator, and he wanted to reveal himself to mankind, why waste the time breeding a chosen people? Just say 'hi, this is God. Call anyone you want to, they're having this conversation right now, too. All around the world. EVERYONE. Deny me now, bitches.'

Quote:
 

Bible: Literal vs. Allegorical/Parables

The Bible is meant to be taken literally. Are there metaphorical parts? Yes. But that doesn’t mean the whole book is. It is easy to tell what is metaphorical and what is not. Often times Jesus spoke in parables. He did this because it separates the ones who have a genuine interest in God and ones who have a superficial faith in God. If you wanted to know the answers to what He meant, you would seek them out. If you don’t care enough to do so, then you have just proven how much value you care about God.

And God proves just how little value he cares about each of us. Remember, in all of these comparisons to parenting, parents don't begin with the statement of 'trust me. Take it on faith'. They start first with demonstrations of trustworthiness: they help the baby, feed it, comfort it, shelter it. They show reason for that trust and faith to develop with concrete, undeniable interaction. Grandparents, too, have to demonstrate trustworthiness before children completely trust them (which, you know, is reasonable. Just because mom calls that person 'gramma' doesn't make her any less of a total stranger).

God doesn't. God doesn't provide any more concrete interaction than your great-great-great-great grandfather does... and he's probably dead. He doesn't interact, doesn't provide you any reason to trust him. Same thing with God. There's no interaction with God that gives a concrete, direct reason to trust... because there's no interaction with God at all.

 

Quote:

Old Law: Under it or not?

Jesus said Himself that He did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. We are still under the law of the Old Law, but not under the punishment that came with it. Jesus took the punishment for us. This is why people see “picking in choosing”. We don’t stone anyone because the punishment was fulfilled by Jesus. We still say that homosexuality is a sin because that is not a punishment. We are still accountable by what laws we break, we are not subject to the punishment if we allow Jesus to stand in our place. 

A)If you are not subject to the punishment, you are not accountable. They are the same thing. Being accountable means that the burden of repaying the cost incurred comes from your account, not from your sugar-daddy's wallet.

B)If homosexuality is still a sin because modern christians are still subject to the Law of Moses, completely and in its entirety, then Peter and Paul had no authority to claim that the kosher laws no longer applied to followers of Christ, even gentiles. When's the last time you had pork in any form? Or meat and cheese on the same dish? Or shellfish? Mayo? When's the last time you wore a garment made from two fabrics (how about your polyester/cotton blend t-shirts?). THAT is what we mean when we say people 'pick and choose' which parts of 'the law' still apply. The prohibitions against homosexuality (which, by the way DO NOT INCLUDE F/F SEXUAL RELATIONS) come from the same Law as the prohibition against wearing garments of two fabrics.

Keep in mind that by and large, when Paul (and most of it WAS Paul) decided these things no longer applied, he was living among Gentiles, adopting their lifestyle, and all of the creature comforts that came with it. And I do mean 'all'. Want a fun exercise? Go through Paul's epistles, look up each time he's 'arrested' and see what crimes he's charged with. Saul, a well-known tax collector who worked as far north as Damascus (Note: That's not taxes for the Jewish Temple he's collecting in DAMASCUS) undoubtably had Roman contacts all over Asia Minor. Whenever he'd get tired of living the 'simple' life of being a charismatic cult leader, fleecing his flock, he'd go hook up with one of his rich Roman buddies, write off another letter bemoaning his 'arrest' and urging his latest bunch of victims to 'keep the faith'... and then conveniently 'escape' to another city.

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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For the sake of cheap

For the sake of cheap entertainment, I will answer some of these question.

 

Quote:
86. Exactly how did the alleged worldwide flood kill off all the world's sea creatures? How does one go about drowning a fish? -- Steever

Answer:

Quote:
Actually the question is not a silly as it sounds and does not only occur when there is not enough oxygen in the water.


Under the right conditions (or in this case, the wrong conditions) a fish can actually drown just as surely as a human can. Drowning is caused by suffocation in a body of water, it is accurate to say a fish that is starved of oxygen while in the water has in fact drowned.

Fish breathe by taking in oxygen from the water and if the body of water they are living has a depleted oxygen supply, then the fish must either move to a new, oxygen rich area, or drown. During summer months in particular, the deep lakes' oxygen supply can easily become depleted due to animal respiration and decay of vegetation. This causes large groups of fish to die, as they very often refuse to move out of the oxygenless region.

There are even some species of fish that have developed such complex respiratory systems that they can only breath outside of the water. Fish, such as the Climbing Perch Fish, can get out of a body of water and survive on land, but many need to breathe our air as well as gaining oxygen in the water. If these fish are forced to stay under water, they will not gain the necessary oxygen they need to survive, resulting in the fish drowning. The Climbing Perch Fish have a respiratory system that is depended on our oxygen rich air and the fish will drown if forced to stay under water for to long, no matter how much oxygen is in the water


http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_a_fish_drown

Quote:
87. Why did this alleged god create humans as an animal form of life that gets sick and dies and experiences pain and has a limited mind when 'it' could have created humans as a form of pure energy or of some indestructible material or whatever, and was totally ?sinless? and had ?pure? thought? If a god was omnipotent 'it' could have easily have done this. --AI


Persuming that a god were to exist, here's an answer:

According to the Bible, mankind in his original form was created perfect, and it was not until after original sin was mankind faced with diseases, death, et al. This god also gave mankind free will, which mankind used himself to his own destruction. Blaming this god for what mankind wrought upon himself is a misdirection of responsibility, since it is recorded that this god forbade mankind from engaging with the elements which caused mankind's downfall.

It was mankind's desire to be like god which caused mankind's downfall. According to the bible, it was 'desire" which motivated mankind to transgress the law of this god. This is not unlike a modern day criminal who transgresses the laws of the land. Before he transgresses the laws of the land, he stands a a perfect example of a law abiding citizen. Then, by his own actions, he transgresses the law and abandons perfection.So it is the law's fault that the man transgressed it? Or, it is the responsibility of the man? After all, he originally stood as a perfect law abiding citizen.

Likewise, in the biblical scenario, mankind originally stood as a perfect example before his God and God's law.

Quote:
88. If a god is omnipotent how did 'it' fail to foresee that Satan would turn against 'it'? --AI


Logical fallacy: begging the question.

Reply: Who says that this god failed to foresee that Satan would turn against it?

Quote:
89. What is a god supposedly made of? --AI


According to the Christian god of Jesus, God is a spirit. John 4.24.

So what is a spirit? The oldest record comes from the Torah, with first use being found in Genesis 1.2. The word "spirit" comes from the ancient Hebrew word of "ruwach," and it means "wind" or "breath." By resemblance, "spirit", but only of a rational being including its expression and functions.

Enjoy. I'll come back again sometime and slowly answer them all, but not as a theist, but only for the sake of interesting discussion as an agnostic.

Permanently banned


JustAnotherBeliever
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 Questions about God...

 

Questions about God... theists answer these!

 

List of questions about God, religion and the supernatural have been compiled by IG over the years as well as some interesting ones by readers.

1. If Jesus fulfilled all the OT prophecies so well, why didn't the Jews recognize him as the messiah? - Francois Tremblay

He does not fit the classic jewish concept of messiah. Worshipping a man is against the 1st commandment (unless he is somehow divine as well). Ironically, in jesuses time, the question was does everyone have to convert to judaism before being christian. Now its should jews even convert to christianity at all.

2. If Gen 3:24 is true, why hasn't anyone found the Cherubims and the " flaming sword which turned every way"?

Apparently they found where the garden was in western iraq. At least thats what I saw on the discovery channel. The "gates" appear to be mountain passes instead of sworded gates. Obviously, there is a lot of allegory involved in the genesis account

3. It's been proven that modern humans originated from Africa. Yet, the Adam and Eve story claims the first Humans lived in a garden in Eden, near 4 rivers. ( Most of which no one can find). One of these rivers mentioned is the Euphrates, which runs through Iraq, Syria and a portion of Turkey. What's the truth? Did man come out of Africa or near the Euphrates River? - The Infidel Guy

I have no extra knowledge. All I know is I gave $100 to the national geographic society with a DNA swap. And they sent a canned response that said I came from Africa.

4. When the believer gets to Heaven, how can Heaven be utter bliss when people they love and care about are burning in Hell ? - The Infidel Guy - [Note: Some say God erases your memories of them, but if God erases your memory, you as Mr. Joe /Jane Smoe ceases to exist.]

this is one of the great paradoxes as well. We will have our memories and we will know that every one is where they "want" to be. Because technically we all "want" to do our own thing and not serve God. But it is a miracle when even one person chooses to serve God. It seems to be that is would be "better" to cease to exist than be in hell but perhaps God values creation and free will too much to destroy it.

5. How can a God have emotions, i.e. jealousy, anger, sadness, love, etc., if he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent? Emotional states are reactionary for the most part. How can God react to us if he is all-knowing and has a divine plan? - IG [Note: Indeed, many religious texts display their gods this way . Listen to the An Emotional Godshow.]

Yes. God is unchanging pure being and cannot have emotions or desires or reactions. The holy spirit is somehow the part of God we can deal with that "appears" to perform actions and interact with humanity. Much of what is written about God must be teaching parable since technically God cannot interact with man in his true form. It is paradoxical that God can interact with man at all.


6. Why would God create a place such as hell to torture sinners forever when he foreknew who would disappoint him? - IG [Note: Some say you have a choice, but this misses the point. If God hates sin so much, why create Adam and Eve when he knew they'd sin? The only conclusion I can come up with, if Yaweh exists, is that he wanted sin to enter the world.]

This is another great paradox that is difficult to attempt to understand. Apparently to create human beings with free will, it has to be this way. We would eventually choose to fall, and therefore need cannot be in the presence of God in our current state. Even though Jesus is Gods "response" to mans fall. Jesus existed before the foundation of the world. Totally paradoxical.

7. "God is all merciful," we hear quite often. Wouldn't it be more merciful of God to simply snap sinners out of existence rather than send them to hell? Or better yet, since he's all-knowing, not allow them to be born at all? -

I agree but what do I know? Free will for mankind is of utmost importance for some reason.

8. Muslims are supposed to pray 5 times a day towards Mecca. Each prayer includes a variety of ritualism and posturing. If a muslim astronaut were to land on Mars. Prayer to Mecca would be ritualistically impossible due to the rotation of Earth and Mars. Are Muslims stuck here in Earth? IG [Note: Since this was first posted, a Muslim astronaut was faced with this very dilemma. The authoritative clergy informed him to pray as he normally would. I see this no where in the Koran. You see? Religions must change, or die out. It's interesting to note that, in the Koran, the moon is believed to be in the lowest Heaven, the level for those that barely made it to Heaven. Surah 71:15-16. One problem, no man can supposedly get to Heaven until they die. Yet, we've been to the moon. Our satellites beyond that.]

ok

9. Why haven't we seen God reattach severed heads, restore someone who was burned alive or regrow amputated limbs? Surely these would be miracles difficult to deny. - Adam Majors and IG [Note: The typical answer is that man doesn't dictate God's actions. The conundrum here however is that, if God wants us to "know" him, then surely feats such as those mentioned above would be happening all over the world. Until they do, I'll remain an atheist.]

When God does physical miracles they are very rare. Most of the miracles are of the soul/spirit. To love your enemies is a miracle for example. To believe in God and have faith is a miracle. Unfortunately, I think if there were more physical miracles we would explain them away anyway. We are accountable for all miracles we see. If we were to deny one, we would receive pretty heavy judgement on ourselves. (that sounds like a self fulfilling prophecy...it is but its the best I got)

 

10. Why does God entrust the spreading of 'His' word to sinners? Why doesn't he do it himself? - IG [Note: Surely God would have known that not everyone would be convinced by the reality[sic] of his Bible. If God loves us so much, we are all going to Heaven. If God knew that I would be an atheist, and he doesn't like atheists, he shouldn't have allowed me to come into existence. But he did. Therefore, I must be serving the will of God, for I exist. Smiling]

God will absolutely not force us to serve him. Yet he loves us and does not "want" any of us to perish. There is no good answer as I see it. But I can picture that most of us do not want to serve God for all eternity. It is a miracle that some of us want to want to serve God at all. It is the work of the holy spirit that any of us are saved at all. It is a miracle that any of us dont perish. Though we are upset (and rightly so) that not all will "make it". The problem with that thinking is that none of us deserve to "make it" to heaven. So God has to make a way for us somehow.

11. In II Kings 2-23/24 we read about God sending 2 she-bears to attack children for calling the prophet Elisa bald, which he was, the bears killed 42 of the children. Was this a good thing to do? -- Brandon and IG[Note: I have heard some argue that the boys were a gang. So?! I didn't read anywhere in that passage where they laid a finger on the guy . Also, what kind of bears are these that can kill 42 kids? Super Bears? Surely the kids had to be running away.]

I have no idea.

12. I have often heard from many believers that even Satan has a presence in the church, which is why even in church people can still have impure thoughts. If Satan can find his way in the church, how do Christians know that Satan didn't find his way into the Bible and twist the whole book? After all, men did vote on which books would make the Holy Bible. - The Infidel Guy

People have impure thoughts because we are tempted by our own desires. All satan has to do is give us what we want. So technically he is blameless and we are to blame for our own sins. Thats a good question about the bible. I think we somewhat have to "trust" the authors received "true" divine inspiration. But ultimately you are correct. Men voted on which books were "inspired" and which were not that didnt seem to make sense. Hopefully they chose well.

 

I don't know how to respond to all of these at once. If somebody (who cares) has a favorite few I can try to answer those first. Its kind of hard to read this post otherwise.

 

 


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JustAnotherBeliever

JustAnotherBeliever wrote:

 

Questions about God... theists answer these!

 

List of questions about God, religion and the supernatural have been compiled by IG over the years as well as some interesting ones by readers.

1. If Jesus fulfilled all the OT prophecies so well, why didn't the Jews recognize him as the messiah? - Francois Tremblay

He does not fit the classic jewish concept of messiah. Worshipping a man is against the 1st commandment (unless he is somehow divine as well). Ironically, in jesuses time, the question was does everyone have to convert to judaism before being christian. Now its should jews even convert to christianity at all.

Actually, in Jesus's time, that wasn't a question at all. He specifically told the Disciples to avoid Gentiles, and to not even preach to the Samaritans. It's not until Paul goes to start his self-aggrandizing power play disguised as a ministry that the Church even considers admitting Gentiles. The lack of prior missions is why Paul found such a fertile and uncontested field for his perversions of the Gospel. At least at first. If you read through his epistles, you'll find points where he references other people coming to talk to his congregations and leading them astray, including 'Cephas'.

"Cephas" is Peter. The 'enemies' he refers to quite often in his epistles are the Jerusalem Church, led by James the Just (the brother of Jesus) and the Twelve.

 

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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Time

Now there's alot of time on your hands, for anyone to read all this.  Why can't people just accept the fact that this gawd thing is the same as Santa Claus.  Make believe!!  Boy do people get pissed at me when I say that to them.  HEE HEE


JustAnotherBeliever
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Thats true...

there were some power plays in the early church...

it is ironic that you can be an atheist jew, new age jew, reformed, conservative, or several other lesser sects and well tolerated by all jews. But only the messianic jew is currently unrecognized by all the them. Its better to be an atheist as far as jews are concerned then to believe in judaism + the messiah has already come. I find that interesting. The one delineation that is not acceptable is that jesus was the messiah. I guess its all equivalent nonsense to most of you here but I find it remarkable


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JustAnotherBeliever

JustAnotherBeliever wrote:

there were some power plays in the early church...

it is ironic that you can be an atheist jew, new age jew, reformed, conservative, or several other lesser sects and well tolerated by all jews. But only the messianic jew is currently unrecognized by all the them. Its better to be an atheist as far as jews are concerned then to believe in judaism + the messiah has already come. I find that interesting. The one delineation that is not acceptable is that jesus was the messiah. I guess its all equivalent nonsense to most of you here but I find it remarkable

 

Yes, odd isn't it. Kind of like Xians who think it is acceptable to believe the revelations of Paul but not Mohammed, or Xians who accept that Jesus walked on water but Krishna doesn't exist, or Xians who accept that Jesus was God-Man but not Joseph Smith.

 

Religion has a funny way of accepting one bizarre story over thousands of equally bizarre stories with no more evidence than "some guy said that some guy said..."

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov


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JustAnotherBeliever

JustAnotherBeliever wrote:

there were some power plays in the early church...

it is ironic that you can be an atheist jew, new age jew, reformed, conservative, or several other lesser sects and well tolerated by all jews. But only the messianic jew is currently unrecognized by all the them. Its better to be an atheist as far as jews are concerned then to believe in judaism + the messiah has already come. I find that interesting. The one delineation that is not acceptable is that jesus was the messiah. I guess its all equivalent nonsense to most of you here but I find it remarkable

Oh, it goes far beyond simple power plays. Paul's theology directly contradicts that of Jesus Christ on several occasions. Christ may have told Peter he would be the Rock on which the Church was built, but Christianity really has absolutely nothing to do with Christ's church, and everything to do with Paul's.

Which is a shame... not just because JC had some pretty good ideas, but also because Paul was a lying bastard whose theology has really done a lot of damage to the West.

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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I would like to add a question if I may.

Why do so many Christian denominations make such a fuss over Satan when he was such a minor to non-existent character throughout most of the Bible?  He tortures Job for god's and his own amusement, and then doesn't make any significant come back until he attempts to temp Jesus.  I recall in my last read through, no mention of him made in the stories of Israel murdering, raping, pillaging and torturing all the other tribes in and on their way to the promise land.  Furthermore, how do we know that the talking snake in the mystical garden was Satan himself?

"I've yet to witness circumstance successfully manipulated through the babbling of ritualistic nonsense to an imaginary deity." -- me (josh)

If god can do anything, can he make a hot dog so big even he can't eat all of it?


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did not read your questions

If we had all the answers, there would be no faith involved. That is the basis of all religion, FAITH.

 

Washington's farewell address:

Of all the dispositions and habits, which lead to political prosperity, Religion, and Morality are indispensable supports.—In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens.—The mere Politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them.—A volume could not trace all their connexions with private and public felicity.—Let it simply be asked where is security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion.—Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure.—reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.—

 


JustAnotherBeliever
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hazindu wrote:Why do so many

hazindu wrote:

Why do so many Christian denominations make such a fuss over Satan when he was such a minor to non-existent character throughout most of the Bible?  He tortures Job for god's and his own amusement, and then doesn't make any significant come back until he attempts to temp Jesus.  I recall in my last read through, no mention of him made in the stories of Israel murdering, raping, pillaging and torturing all the other tribes in and on their way to the promise land.  Furthermore, how do we know that the talking snake in the mystical garden was Satan himself?

Thats true. In a way, to make a fuss over Satan is to fixate on him and give him more attention than he deserves. Satan only gives us what we want so we cant blame him for tempting us. We are tempted by our own evil desires. He's just ready to help. So its good to be wary of that.


Balone
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The Bible says this too

Jesus said if you destroy this temple I will rebuild it in 3 days. Now the people at the time thought he was referring to the Temple in Jerusalem. No he was talking about himself. Jesus did not prosper on earth in all terms(he did with Christianity), but is prospering in heaven in all terms. He also was called the King of Kings, once again not on earth but in heaven. You have to have Faith. Those with no faith are but a shell. An empty shell with no hope. Surely you do not have faith that science or any human is going to save this planet from the diasters we are facing. Humans and science are the ones who created these issues. Humans created RELIGION. Do not be confused between believing in GOD and religion. They are 2 different animals. Humans are fallible, then so is everything that they create, including "science" and "religion". Read the bible for yourself and make your own determinations. Raised a Catholic I would still consider myself to be Catholic, do I believe everything I am told or taught by a Catholic Preist, NO. Do I follow blindly, NO. The second vatican council removed the rights of exorcism from the Bible. Clearly in the Bible it states anyone who removes or changes anything from these pages shall suffer the wrath of God, not in those words but close. So the Catholic Church of today I have little commitment to. I am however committed to Jesus Christ, God, and the Holy Bible(Douey-Rheims version).

Are you looking for a babysitter? Are you looking for a god to hold your hand and tell you what choices you should make? Are you looking for someone to come down from heaven when a diaster happens and set it right or prevent it from happening?  How bout no one ever dies because loss of a loved one is too painful an experience. What kind of life would you have then? BORING!!! God gave us a choice to believe or not to believe, you make your bed and sleep in it. God will sort it out in the end.

Another thing, humans came from Africa, I do not care what "evidence" there is of this, not saying I do not believe it. How can you possibly prove that. The earth has been through so many changes and land shifts that that is impossible to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt. Most scientific research is unable to prove anything beyond a shadow of a doubt. Yeah there is gravity and laws of motion work pretty good, just stuff that seems logical to me . I personally cannot have faith in a fallible being or their teachings. Yes Jesus was human but our Faith teaches us that God worked through Jesus, as did the prophets and saints. Science cannot get us into the deepest parts of our own seas. Science has not solved food and water shortages. Science has not solved are dependency on oil. Science has not found the cure to the common cold. Science has not stopped an earthquake or a hurricane or a tornado, etc. Science has not stopped homelessness and low wages(poor), as a matter of fact I would argue that science and humanism(selfishness) are factors that keep both of these alive and well.

Please nobody try to answer these questions. If they could be answered there would only be 1 religion and belief system in this world(boring). Just look around and you can see God wants and likes diversity.

Washington's farewell address:

 Of all the dispositions and habits, which lead to political prosperity, Religion, and Morality are indispensable supports.—In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens.—The mere Politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them.—A volume could not trace all their connexions with private and public felicity.—Let it simply be asked where is security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion.—Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure.—reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.—

 


hazindu
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Quote:You have to have

Quote:
You have to have Faith. Those with no faith are but a shell. An empty shell with no hope.
Faith is belief unsubstantiated by evidence, or essentially believing without good reason.  Are you sure it is faithless who are but an empty shell with no hope?  Suppose you're right, and we do need faith.  It would seem arbitrary to limit my faith to the set of beliefs you just so happen to hold.  Wouldn't my shell be equally empty if I deny a belief in anything equally as unsubstantiated as christianity?  Therefore we must all believe in everything including the hobgoblins who run a magical pink unicorn farm on the far side of the moon.

Quote:
Surely you do not have faith that science or any human is going to save this planet from the diasters we are facing. Humans and science are the ones who created these issues. Humans created RELIGION.
You're correct, I have no 'faith' that science or any human is going to save the planet.  Humans and irrational behaviors such as faith are the cause of most of the world's problems, and as long as people cling to their imaginary highly vindictive genicydal invisible magicians in the sky, science will be hard pressed to help them.

Quote:
Read the bible for yourself and make your own determinations.
I did read the BuyBull(shit), and it is full of errors, atrocities, cruel tribalism, contradictions and various general bullshit.

Quote:
Are you looking for a babysitter? Are you looking for a god to hold your hand and tell you what choices you should make?
No. MAJOR SPOILER ALERT: I don't believe in god...

Quote:
Another thing, humans came from Africa, I do not care what "evidence" there is of this, not saying I do not believe it. How can you possibly prove that.
Evidence...  seriously, look it up.

Quote:
Yes Jesus was human but our Faith teaches us that God worked through Jesus, as did the prophets and saints.
I doubt your 'faith' taught you that.  That sounds more like something a priest or a sundayschool teacher would say.

Quote:
Science cannot get us into the deepest parts of our own seas. Science has not solved food and water shortages. Science has not solved are dependency on oil. Science has not found the cure to the common cold. Science has not stopped an earthquake or a hurricane or a tornado, etc. Science has not stopped homelessness and low wages(poor), as a matter of fact I would argue that science and humanism(selfishness) are factors that keep both of these alive and well.
And religion can??? lol.  At least scientists try to move in the right direction instead of clinging to dogma and tradition.

Quote:
If they could be answered there would only be 1 religion and belief system in this world(boring). Just look around and you can see God wants and likes diversity.
If god likes his diversity, why do so many religions have a kill\abuse\opress everyone else clause?

"I've yet to witness circumstance successfully manipulated through the babbling of ritualistic nonsense to an imaginary deity." -- me (josh)

If god can do anything, can he make a hot dog so big even he can't eat all of it?


lisp777
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Answers to some of the questions

I thought I'd pick a couple of questions that I feel I have reasonable answers for.

Sapient wrote:
5. How can a God have emotions, i.e. jealousy, anger, sadness, love, etc., if he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent? Emotional states are reactionary for the most part. How can God react to us if he is all-knowing and has a divine plan?


Saying that emotional states are reactionary describes the origin of the emotions. The emotions themselves are the subjective experience, i.e. the feelings associated with them. Humans are temporal beings, and as is argued in a later question of yours, God is atemporal.

If we could formulate our own human experience as a mathematical function, it would be one that would evaluate a single point in time to a single point of experience. The same reasoning applied to an atemporal, omniscient entity would be the same function evaluated over all points in time into a line (or plane, space, hyperspace, etc.) Lets pretend for a moment that you as a human would paint a painting and that there would be conscious entities bound to some spatial dimension of that painting, just like we are bound to the dimension of time. From the perspective of the people in the painting, you would be omniscient and you would also access to the full set of emotional reactions over the dimension that they are limited to experience one point at a time.

(Atemporal is thus not entirely accurate, the term pantemporal might be preferable.)

Sapient wrote:
15. Many Christians believe that God is a thinking being, that he solves problems and makes a way for them when troubles come. Does God Think? If God is thinking, did he know his thoughts before he thought them? If so, again, where is his freewill and how is God thinking at all if everything seems to be one uncontrollable action/thoughts. - The Infidel Guy [Note: I'd say a God cannot think at all. To do so, would strip him of omniscience. Thinking is a temporal process.] ON GOD'S ATEMPORALITY
1.) God, an atemporal being, created the Universe.
2.) Creation is a temporal processes because X cannot cause Y to come into being unless X existed temporally prior to Y.
3.) If God existed prior to the creation of the Universe he is a temporal being.
4.) Since God is atemporal, God cannot be the creator the Universe.


1. Correct.
2. Only correct within a temporal framework. In the space of whatever dimensions are available to God, if the world is created in one point and not created in another point it stands to reason that those two points differ somehow. If they are the same in all but the dimension of time, the act of creation (or destruction, if the events are ordered the other way around) is indeed a temporal event - but that is if and only if they do not differ in any other dimension. A handy example of such a dimension could be (among many other things) a separate dimension of time - very much like your timeline is different from that of a video game you're playing.
3. Correct.
4. Since premise 2 is flawed, your conclusion does not follow.

Sapient wrote:
41. What is the purpose of prayer? What can a finite being on Earth possibly tell an omnipotent, omniscient deity that he doesn't know already? - IG ON PRAYER
1.) Humans can?t change God?s mind for he has a divine plan and is unchangeable.
2.) Prayer can't change God's mind.
3.) Prayer doesn't change anything.
(Prayer may make you feel better emotionally, but it doesn`t change God`s mind.)


Who claims God is unchangeable? (no Bible verses, please - I'm not a literalist) Lets pretend that someone prays for a loved one who is sick and the person recovers the very next day due to a series of events set in motion ten years earlier by God as a response to that prayer. That is not such a ludicrous feat as it first may sound, being that God is outside of time.

The same reasoning goes for the mutability of God's mind. From the perspective of the person making the prayer, God's mind was set ten years ago and her loved one would have recovered no matter if the prayer was said or not. That perspective, as I hoped I've shown, is illusory as it does not portray the whole series of events.
 


hazindu
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JustAnotherBeliever

JustAnotherBeliever wrote:

hazindu wrote:

Why do so many Christian denominations make such a fuss over Satan when he was such a minor to non-existent character throughout most of the Bible?  He tortures Job for god's and his own amusement, and then doesn't make any significant come back until he attempts to temp Jesus.  I recall in my last read through, no mention of him made in the stories of Israel murdering, raping, pillaging and torturing all the other tribes in and on their way to the promise land.  Furthermore, how do we know that the talking snake in the mystical garden was Satan himself?

Thats true. In a way, to make a fuss over Satan is to fixate on him and give him more attention than he deserves. Satan only gives us what we want so we cant blame him for tempting us. We are tempted by our own evil desires. He's just ready to help. So its good to be wary of that.

Way to completely dodge the question.


 

"I've yet to witness circumstance successfully manipulated through the babbling of ritualistic nonsense to an imaginary deity." -- me (josh)

If god can do anything, can he make a hot dog so big even he can't eat all of it?


KSMB
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lisp777 wrote:(Atemporal is

lisp777 wrote:
(Atemporal is thus not entirely accurate, the term pantemporal might be preferable.)

Oh! I finally get to say this! Ahem:

Distinction without a difference.

Damn that felt good.