Questions about God... theists answer these!

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Questions about God... theists answer these!

List of questions about God, religion and the supernatural have been compiled by IG over the years as well as some interesting ones by readers.

1. If Jesus fulfilled all the OT prophecies so well, why didn't the Jews recognize him as the messiah? - Francois Tremblay

2. If Gen 3:24 is true, why hasn't anyone found the Cherubims and the " flaming sword which turned every way"?

3. It's been proven that modern humans originated from Africa. Yet, the Adam and Eve story claims the first Humans lived in a garden in Eden, near 4 rivers. ( Most of which no one can find). One of these rivers mentioned is the Euphrates, which runs through Iraq, Syria and a portion of Turkey. What's the truth? Did man come out of Africa or near the Euphrates River? - The Infidel Guy

4. When the believer gets to Heaven, how can Heaven be utter bliss when people they love and care about are burning in Hell ? - The Infidel Guy - [Note: Some say God erases your memories of them, but if God erases your memory, you as Mr. Joe /Jane Smoe ceases to exist.]

5. How can a God have emotions, i.e. jealousy, anger, sadness, love, etc., if he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent? Emotional states are reactionary for the most part. How can God react to us if he is all-knowing and has a divine plan? - IG [Note: Indeed, many religious texts display their gods this way . Listen to the An Emotional Godshow.]
6. Why would God create a place such as hell to torture sinners forever when he foreknew who would disappoint him? - IG [Note: Some say you have a choice, but this misses the point. If God hates sin so much, why create Adam and Eve when he knew they'd sin? The only conclusion I can come up with, if Yaweh exists, is that he wanted sin to enter the world.]

7. "God is all merciful," we hear quite often. Wouldn't it be more merciful of God to simply snap sinners out of existence rather than send them to hell? Or better yet, since he's all-knowing, not allow them to be born at all? - IG
ON GOD'S LOVE & HELL
1.) God's love is superlative.
2.) God's love of man exceeds man's love of self.
3.) Man's love of self prohibits torture.
4.) Considering God's greater love for us, Hell (eternal torture) is illogical.

8. Muslims are supposed to pray 5 times a day towards Mecca. Each prayer includes a variety of ritualism and posturing. If a muslim astronaut were to land on Mars. Prayer to Mecca would be ritualistically impossible due to the rotation of Earth and Mars. Are Muslims stuck here in Earth? IG [Note: Since this was first posted, a Muslim astronaut was faced with this very dilemma. The authoritative clergy informed him to pray as he normally would. I see this no where in the Koran. You see? Religions must change, or die out. It's interesting to note that, in the Koran, the moon is believed to be in the lowest Heaven, the level for those that barely made it to Heaven. Surah 71:15-16. One problem, no man can supposedly get to Heaven until they die. Yet, we've been to the moon. Our satellites beyond that.]

9. Why haven't we seen God reattach severed heads, restore someone who was burned alive or regrow amputated limbs? Surely these would be miracles difficult to deny. - Adam Majors and IG [Note: The typical answer is that man doesn't dictate God's actions. The conundrum here however is that, if God wants us to "know" him, then surely feats such as those mentioned above would be happening all over the world. Until they do, I'll remain an atheist.]

10. Why does God entrust the spreading of 'His' word to sinners? Why doesn't he do it himself? - IG [Note: Surely God would have known that not everyone would be convinced by the reality[sic] of his Bible. If God loves us so much, we are all going to Heaven. If God knew that I would be an atheist, and he doesn't like atheists, he shouldn't have allowed me to come into existence. But he did. Therefore, I must be serving the will of God, for I exist. Smiling]

11. In II Kings 2-23/24 we read about God sending 2 she-bears to attack children for calling the prophet Elisa bald, which he was, the bears killed 42 of the children. Was this a good thing to do? -- Brandon and IG[Note: I have heard some argue that the boys were a gang. So?! I didn't read anywhere in that passage where they laid a finger on the guy . Also, what kind of bears are these that can kill 42 kids? Super Bears? Surely the kids had to be running away.]

12. I have often heard from many believers that even Satan has a presence in the church, which is why even in church people can still have impure thoughts. If Satan can find his way in the church, how do Christians know that Satan didn't find his way into the Bible and twist the whole book? After all, men did vote on which books would make the Holy Bible. - The Infidel Guy

13. Why did God allow Lot and his daughters to escape from Sodom and Gomorra when he destroyed it only to later have Lot and his daughters engage in incestuous fornication. (Genesis 19:30-36) - Disillusioned [Note: To have intercourse with daddy dearest of course.]

14. Genesis 1:28-29 shows that man and all the animals were first created herbivorous. Most young-earth Christians (ones that believes the earth is less than 10,000 years old) say that the fall of man resulted in carnivorous animals ( hence death of animals). So, why did God punish the animal kingdom, making animals kill and devour each other because of man's mistake? Or, if you're an old-earth Christian (one that accepts that animals existed on earth for billions of years before man came on the scene) then how come fossils show carnivorous animals existed before man? - http://www.caseagainstfaith.com/contact.htm.

15. Many Christians believe that God is a thinking being, that he solves problems and makes a way for them when troubles come. Does God Think? If God is thinking, did he know his thoughts before he thought them? If so, again, where is his freewill and how is God thinking at all if everything seems to be one uncontrollable action/thoughts. - The Infidel Guy [Note: I'd say a God cannot think at all. To do so, would strip him of omniscience. Thinking is a temporal process.] ON GOD'S ATEMPORALITY
1.) God, an atemporal being, created the Universe.
2.) Creation is a temporal processes because X cannot cause Y to come into being unless X existed temporally prior to Y.
3.) If God existed prior to the creation of the Universe he is a temporal being.
4.) Since God is atemporal, God cannot be the creator the Universe.
[Note: I guess I should also note here that a timeless being would be without the proposition of past, and future. But to be omniscient, God must know the past and future. Hence a God that is atemporal and omniscient cannot logically exist. Smiling]

16. I have often heard that faith is all that is neccessary to believe in God and accept the Bible as true. If this is true aren't all supernatural beliefs true since they also require "faith"? - IG ON FAITH
1.) A prerequisite to believe in a Faith is faith.
2.) Having faith is all that is required to accept a Faith (belief) as true.
3.) All Faiths are true.
[Note: Of course all Faiths aren`t true, but this is the only logical conclusion that can be drawn from a person that states that, "Faith" is how one knows God.]

17. Why didn't God just kill Adam and Eve after the Fall and start from scratch? Actually, if God is all-knowing wouldn't he know that man would need to be killed eventually anyway, (the biblical flood)? Why create Adam and Eve at all? - and ON THE GARDEN OF EDEN
1.) God is omniscient (all-knowing).
2.) God knew that before he created man that they would eat of the tree of knowledge.
3.) God placed the tree of knowledge in the Garden anyway.
4.) God wanted sin to enter the world.
[Note: If God didn`t want sin to enter the world, why create Adam and Eve at all? He knew what would happen. Why place the forbidden trees in the Garden in the first place?]

18. If a spirit is non-physical but the human body is physical, how does a spirit stay in our bodies? - IG ON SPIRITS
1.) Spirits are not physical entities.
2.) Brains are physical entities.
3.) Past experiences are stored in our physical brains, we call that, Memory..
4.) Injury can damage portions of the physical brain that store memory and can alter or erase memories completely.
5.) If human spirits exist... after death, spirits can have no memory.
[Note: Some will say the spirit stores physical memories as well, but if true, the spirit would have to be physical at least to a degree. How could a non-physical spirit store, physical memories?]

19. Does God know his own future decisions? If God is all-knowing he actually shouldn't have any decisions to make at all. Nor can he choose anything over something else. For that would mean that he is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. In fact, he can't even think if this is the case. Since he can't DO anything, he might as well not exist. - IG ON GOD'S IMMUTABILITY - Unchangingness
1. If God exists, then he is immutable.
2. If God exists, then he is the creator of the universe.
3. An immutable being cannot at one time have an intention and then at a later time not have that intention.
4. For any being to create anything, prior to the creation he must have had the intention to create it, but at a later time, after the creation, no longer have the intention to create it.
5. Thus, it is impossible for an immutable being to have created anything (from 3 and 4).
6. Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1, 2, and 5) - Theodore M. Drange

20. If God is all-knowing, how could he be disappointed in His creation? -- [Note: Indeed, wouldn't God know that before the creation of our Universe what creatures would disappoint him? That being the case why create those creatures at all? Also, in knowing absolutely the behavior of humans before creation, God cannot be disappointed either... for this world is exactly as he has planned it to be. If it's not, why create us at all?]

21. God struck down the Tower of Babel angry at the intent of the people that built them, if this is the case, many of the great pyramids ( which are bigger than any ziggurat) around the world should be rubble also, yet many still stand today. Were not the Egyptians and many other ancient pyramid builders reaching toward God /The Heavens? - IG [Note: In actuality, many of the Pharaoh's believed that, via their pyramids, they would become God's themselves.]

22. In the watchmaker analogy, a watch is used to show us intelligent design and compares that to the Universe as evidence of design. We know watches are designed because we have past experience with watches, as well as with other man made objects. My question is: What Universe is the Intelligent Design proponent using to compare this Universe with to draw such an analogy? What God did he see create a Universe? - IG

23. Why did God flood the earth to remove evil? It didn't work! Evil came right back, God should have known that would happen! So why did He bother? - PhineasBg [Note: A good example of how quickly sin returned, was Noah getting drunk just after they discovered land.]

24. If the garden of Eden was a perfect paradise as xians claim, then why did Eve even want to eat the fruit? Wouldn't a perfect place provide everything a person would want or desire and thus she would want nothing? - keyser soze [Note: Why were the trees there in the first place? Of course they love to throw the serpent into the equation. But ummm..who let the serpent into the Garden?... and why would God create such a creature knowing he would cause man's fall? Hmm.. God must have wanted the fall to happen.]

25. Why would an all-powerful god become flesh in order to sacrifice himself to himself so that his creation might escape the wrath of himself. Couldn't god, in his infinite wisdom, come up with something a little more efficient? - ON THE BODY OF CHRIST
1.) God?s flesh was known as Jesus.
2.) Flesh cannot enter into Heaven (according to Paul)
3.) God is no longer Jesus.
4.) Jesus doesn?t exist.

(Note: Many at this point will state that the spirit lives on so therefore Jesus lives. This really depends on what you believe about Jesus. Is Jesus the son of God or God in flesh? If Jesus is merely the son there is no problem.However, if Jesus ?is? God himself, we do. You see, Jesus is called Jesus because of the attribute of Flesh. If Jesus = God (who is spirit) then the entity known as Jesus ceases to exist. The flesh/body of Jesus, no longer exists and the spirit of God is still the unchanging spirit of God. No Jesus at that point. The Flesh, called Jesus, is dead.)

26. After 9/11 a lot of people have been tossing around " god bless america". Why do they keep saying this? From the looks of it god hasn't blessed anything. If god had blessed america, the 9/11 event would've never happened. Theists seem to give the answer of "everything is part of gods big plan". If everything is part of gods big plan, why are we after Bin Laden? Wasn't he and other terrorists just carrying out gods desired plan? So it seems that Bin Laden/ terrorism isnt our enemy, but god . - [Note: Unfortunately many religious nuts believe they are fulfilling their God's plan by going to war.]

27. Christians say that God is NOT the author of confusion. Can you say, Tower of Babel? - The Screaming Monkeys

28. If Noah's flood supposedly covered the earth for a year, regardless of whether or not all the animals could fit on the ark, what the heck happened to all the plants? Can you imagine a cactus surviving under 4 miles of water for a year? I can't either! - Kyle Giblet [Note: With God all things are possible. Oh wait, except in Judges 1:19.]

29. The highest rainfall ever recorded in a 24 hour period was 47inches in the Reunion Islands in 1947 (during a severe tropical storm). To cover the whole earth to a depth of 5.6 miles, and cover the mountain tops (i.e. Mount Everest), it would need to rain at a rate of 372 (three hundred and seventy two) inches per hour, over the entire surface of the earth. Can rain fall at such an astronomical rate? Where did all the water come from?? Where did it all go to??? And would not the dynamics of the earth be so out of balance (tides etc.) that the earth would become so unstable that it would wobble off into outer space???? -

30. What do Muslim women get in Paradise? - IG [Note: Some Muslims I have interviewed about this say that Muslim women will get the same thing men get or equal value. Smiling Oh really? So Muslim women will get 72 virgin men? lol. If Muslim men get 72 virgins, where are all these virgin women coming from? What of their freewill? Is Allah creating these women to be slaves to the men in Paradise?]

31. In the "Last Days" Jesus is supposed to appear in the clouds. How are the Christians on the opposite end of the world going to see him? Are there going to be millions of Jesus'? What about people that work underground? What about people in deep space? -

32. The Bible says that God is a jealous God . How is this an example of a moral absolute of which man is supposed to follow? - IG ON GOD`S JEALOUSY
1.) "God is love." 1 John 4:8.
2.) "Love is not jealous." 1 Cor 13:4
3.) "I, the Lord thy God, am a jealous God." Exodus 20:5.
4.) The Christian god cannot logically exist.
(NOte: Basically love is NOT jealous, yet god is jealous, then God can`t be love. But if god IS love he cannot be jealous. Be he is.)

33. A true Muslim man is not supposed to do anything that the prophet Muhammad didn't do. If one remembers there was a big debate over whether or not Muslims should eat Mangos. If this is true, why in the Hell were these Islamic Fundamentalists flying airplanes? - IG

34. If the earth was covered by a complete global flood, every living creature killed except those surviving on the ark, why are there many completely unique animal species in Australia that are found no where else indigenously on the earth? -

35. If god is omniscient and " god is love," why would he allow a child to be conceived, knowing that that child would one day reject him and spend eternity burning in a lake of fire?- TiredTurkeyProd

36. Revelations is supposed to take place on Earth. What if we colonize the moon or Mars or inhabit a self-sustaining space station? Do we escape "judgement"? -- Ray Sommers [Note: No we don't Ray... and of course we all know that if there is any intelligent life out there besides us, they are all going to Hell too. Eye-wink]

37. Isaiah 40:28 says, "...the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is he weary?" If this is true, why did God rest on the seventh day?- IG

38. Everytime I go to a funeral the preacher and guests always say that " God " has called that person to Heaven or they say, " God said it was time to come home", or some such variation. If God is calling these people "home", why are we putting the murderers of these victims in prison? How can we punish a man or woman for doing God's will? - IG

39. Does God have a gender? In most churches, God is predominately referred to as a "he"? - IG [Note: The Bible says God is male, but what does this mean? Does God have a penis? Does he have hormones that dictate his gender? Smiling]

40. Why can't we wait until we get to Heaven to worship God ? Why would it be too late? - IG

41. What is the purpose of prayer? What can a finite being on Earth possibly tell an omnipotent, omniscient deity that he doesn't know already? - IG ON PRAYER
1.) Humans can?t change God?s mind for he has a divine plan and is unchangeable.
2.) Prayer can't change God's mind.
3.) Prayer doesn't change anything.
(Prayer may make you feel better emotionally, but it doesn`t change God`s mind.)

42. Some say Jesus was the all-knowing God. Jesus would have known then that when he died he'd be in heaven in less than 3 days to rule. If Jesus is alive and ruling today, what did he sacrifice? -- Cyndy Hammond

43. God knows that men are sinners, untrustworthy and evil, why does God leave it up to fallible man (clergy..etc) to teach others about his word? Why would he put our eternal souls at risk if he loves us so much? - The Infidel Guy and Danno778

44. Did Adam have nipples? If so, how did he acquire them? In fact, why would God give "later man" nipples at all? They serve no purpose other than lactation. Some say pleasure. Where is that in Genesis exactly? All mammals have nipples as well, are theirs pleasureful for them too? Many men don't find their nipples pleasurable at all. - IG

45. How did Adam and Eve know it was wrong to disobey God if they hadn't eaten of the tree of knowledge (of good and evil) yet? You can't blame them if they didn't know. - IG

46. If God has such a tremendous problem with uncircumcised penises, why did he make man with foreskin in the first place? - IG [Note: Some say, "So God can recognize his chosen people." Recognize? Is God so stupid that he has to physically look at men's penises? If not God, do other men need to? lol.]

47. Did Noah have fish onboard? Salt or Fresh? Since fresh water fish would die in salt, and salt water fish would die in fresh, only one type of fish would survive. Yet....?" - Frank Monaco

48. Why does the omnipotent, omnipresent God need help from man or angels to spread his word or do acts? - IG [Note: Some say God doesn't need help. But apparently he does.] - IG

49. How did Jesus ascend to Heaven in the Flesh when Paul says that flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of Heaven? (1 Cor.15:50) - IG [Note: Some say, well Paul said that and not Jesus. Yet they quote Paul when it suits there purposes.]

50. If God wants us to live right and choose "the good," why did he create evil? (Isaiah 45:6,7) Not to mention he already knows which people are not going to choose "the good" so why create those people in the first place? It seems that many people are born to go to Hell. - IG ON HELL
1.) God is all-knowing.
2.) Before I was born God knew I wouldn?t believe in him.
3.) I was born to go to Hell.
(Sure you may say I have a choice, but I think I`ve proven already that I really don`t. I`m simply fulfilling the will of God by being an atheist aren`t I? If I`m not, I shouldn`t exist: For God would have known that before I was created that I wouldn`t believe in him.)

51. I hear Christians all the time speaking of a spiritual war between Heaven and Hell, if this is true does God have limitations of power? Man only conducts wars because of our limitations of power and foresight. God has both all-power and all-knowledge, no reason for war of any kind. - IG

52. The Bible is full of phrases beginning with, "and the lord saw". Didn't he know before hand? - IG

53. How can a psychologist condone belief in something not proven to exist, when people are put into mental institutions on a daily basis for the same thing? i.e. aliens, fairies, imaginary people (Multiple Personality Disorders..)? - Dan Denton [Note: I'm sure that some of the pious believe that they are improperly placed there as well Dan. Smiling]

54. If Christians say they know God exists and that he will work miracles, what do they need faith for? Faith is not knowing. - IG

55. Brain, or shall I say, body transplants, will eventually be possible, where would the soul be then? Where is the soul? - IG

56. If God really wants us to know him, why doesn't he place the knowledge of him in our minds at birth? The same way many theists believe that God implants our sense of right and wrong in us a right birth. - IG

57. If God was Jesus' father (not Joseph), then why is Jesus' family tree traced through Joseph? -- Cyndy Hammond

58. What image of God was man made from? Couldn't have been a moral one or physical one. - IG [Note: One would suspect that an image of God would be perfect and cannot sin. Oops.]

59. Why can't God appear before everyone at the same time? Everyone in the world would then "know" he exists and not have solely "believe". And please, don't say he already tried that. Surely a God knows exactly what to do to convince a measly human of his existence. - IG

60. According to the New Testament Matthew 5:17 says "Do not suppose that I have come to abolish the Law and the prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to complete. I tell you this: so long as heaven and earth endure, not a letter, not a stroke, will disappear from the Law until all that must happen has Happened." So since Jesus has not returned the "Law" is still in effect, so why aren't we still burning witches, stoning adulterers and disobedient children, killing homosexuals, ostracizing people that work on the Sabbath (nurses, doctors etc.), flinging blood onto the horns of the alter, pulling off the heads of small birds, and don't forget human sacrifice to God (Leviticus 27 P.28 )? -- Sheila L. Chambers

61. If there is freewill in Heaven yet everyone has chosen good and is happy, isn't that proof that God could have made us with freewill, choosing good ( God ) and still being happy on Earth? - Dennis Hendrix [Note: In other words, evil didn't have to exist after all. Hey wait, even in Heaven apparently, evil can exist. At least for a short while. Satan became evil and was in heaven. Apparently he even had enough time to form an Army against God. Wow. Maybe Heaven won't be as peaceful as many believe.]

62. Why does God have a plan? Man is limited in power so we make plans because we are not all-knowing nor all-powerful. If God has a plan, isn't he reduced to a mere finite being? - IG

63. How could the all-merciful/loving God watch billions of his children burn over and over again for eternity? - IG [Note: Of course this is geared to those that believe in a fiery hell. I am well aware that not all Christians believe in a fiery Hell.]

64. Before reading and writing were invented (5000BC), on what basis did God use to judge the people who died before the Hebrew and Greek text (BIBLE) were written? -- [Note: They are all roasting in Hell. Smiling]

65. Many Christians tell me that I will "burn in hell". If I have a soul, how can a soul burn? Aren't souls non-physical entities? - IG [Note: Some Christians groups believe that you will be given new bodies after judgement. However, if true, what's the significance of a spirit in the first place?]

66. How can one hold to the barbaric belief that something has to DIE in order to appease a god for a bad deed? -- Nickolaus Wing [Note: Because an old book says so Nick.]

67. Why does SIDS (Sudden Infant Death Syndrome) occur? Why would God allow a baby to live for such a short period of time? Why not just let them not be born in the first place? -- Terry Clark [Note: This actually happened to a friend of mine. Not even God himself could console her.]

68. If Jesus was nailed and died on Friday evening, and walked out of the tomb on Sunday morning, where's the 3rd NIGHT he predicted? Per Matthew 12:40: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. -

69. Many Christians claim that hell is merely existence outside of God ?s presence (C.S. Lewis among others). If this is the case, then Jesus could not have descended into hell (being God Himself). As a result, are you sure your sins are forgiven? - Byron Bultsma

70. Ten to twenty percent of all women who discover they are pregnant suffer a miscarriage. Also, it is estimated that anywhere from 14 to 50 percent of all pregnancies end in miscarriage. Seeing this is all part of God 's plan, does this make God the world's number one abortion provider? - Jim

71. What if, when you get to Heaven, you saw God causing pain and suffering out of anger or for the purpose of entertaining himself. What if he required people in heaven to praise and worship him non-stop even to the point of causing his worshipers discomfort, pain and boredom. What if, when he was bored, angry, or jealous, he would create natural disasters to make himself feel better. Would you still follow him? - Fernando [Note: Of course they would Fernando, many people followed Hitler out of fear as well.]

72. In Leviticus, the bible condemns homosexuality as an "abomination", giving some Christians a reason to hate, harass, torture and kill gays and even picket their funderals with " God hates fags" signs. In the same book of the bible the eating of shellfish is equally an "abomination". Are these Christians planning to go after the patrons of Red Lobster next? - [Note: hee-hee, that's all I can say. Jewish Law states that eating Fish without scales is an abomination and thus the Shark is one among the list. However, sharks do have scales, Placoid scales, one of the many reasons why a shark is called a Fish .]

73. Christians will tell you that if a baby dies it goes to heaven. Why then are they so against abortion? All the child is being deprived of is the opportunity to go to hell. Either that or god expects unborn fetuses to accept Jesus. -

74. If one could prove to you incontrovertibly that Jesus and God were all human fabrications would still believe? And why? - LOGICnREASON [Note: If you say yes. Then you are not concerned with the truth, you simply WANT to believe; and if you WANT to believe, indeed, there is nothing anyone can tell you..]

75. It is often said that God allows evil because one could not meaningfully appreciate good without experiencing its opposite. Why is it necessary to experience the opposite of something in order to appreciate it? Must I experience death in order to meaningfully appreciate life? -excidius

76. Bible literalists want you to believe that God's Word in the Bible is meant to be taken literally. If this is the case, why was Jesus fond of explaining things in parable and metaphor? Was Jesus literally discussing the biology of mustard seeds, or was the mustard seed parable meant to be interpreted figuratively as faith? -excidius

77. Liberal Christians say some parts of the Bible are literally true, but much else is to be interpreted figuratively as allegory. How do you know which is which? What distinguishing criteria are used? How can you be certain "God" is a literal and not a figurative concept? -excidius

78. Consciousness is the result of a physical brain, how could God being metaphysical be said to be conscious or sentient without having a brain? - Mindless

79. Considering how Leviticus is considered old law, and that Christians do not obey it anymore, why do they always use it to defend homosexuality being an "abomination"? -Bohorquez

80. If God is omnipotent and he has a plan ... then why did he not create the universe as it will be one second after the plan has succeeded? Who or what prevented him from doing that? - Timothy Campbell (http://www.tc123.com)

81. The large majority of people who have ever existed could not have learned of the Bible or Jesus Christ. And many people afterwards have found other religions or no religion at all to be more convincing, sometimes while being very virtuous. Do all these people really deserve eternal torment because of that? -- lpetrich

82. The above arguments also apply among different sects of Christianity, many of which state that most others are not True Christianity. -- lpetrich

83. Is it reasonable for the Creator and Ruler of such a vast Universe to be preoccupied with the sexuality of a species living on a tiny little planet? -- lpetrich

84. If the Christian god was all loving and all knowing why did he let religious figures such as Mohammed or Gautama Budda be born, knowing that they would mislead people from the 'true' faith and trick the majority of the world's population into burning forever in hell (in fact, if Islam didn't start, most of the middle east would probably be Christian). It would simple to use the Holy Spirit to guide them to Jesus and spread the 'true' faith. If the Holy Spirit exits, it certainly isn't doing it's job!

85. If one is obliged to follow all the teachings of the bible then why is engaging in homosexuality or adultery any worse than "suffering a witch to live", "muzzling the ox that treadeth the corn", "reaping the corners of thy field", "marring the corners of they beard", "plowing with an oxen and an ass", "hating thy brother in thy heart" or "eating frogs, shellfish and eels" ?

86. Exactly how did the alleged worldwide flood kill off all the world's sea creatures? How does one go about drowning a fish? -- Steever

87. Why did this alleged god create humans as an animal form of life that gets sick and dies and experiences pain and has a limited mind when 'it' could have created humans as a form of pure energy or of some indestructible material or whatever, and was totally ?sinless? and had ?pure? thought? If a god was omnipotent 'it' could have easily have done this. --AI

88. If a god is omnipotent how did 'it' fail to foresee that Satan would turn against 'it'? --AI

89. What is a god supposedly made of? --AI

This list was compiled by the Infidel Guy with submissions from many members of the atheist community.

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- Brian Sapient


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Vastet
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Ah poor theists don't get

Ah poor theists don't get reality when it slaps them in the face.

Quote:
Question. Provide scientific answer of how first cell came to be? Describe how evolution gets passed the problem of irreducible complexity with thousands of encyclopedia’s full of pre programmed information. Show evidence.

Nonsensical.
Your entire argument is based on the use of the failed hypothesis of irreducible complexity.
Points are lost for lying. Whether you are aware of lying or not is irrelevant. All that matters is that your belief that irreducible complexity is valid is false, and has been proven false. You may as well start arguing that the world is flat. Your credibility has already been obliterated.

Final score:
atheist 1
theist -1

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


redneF
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CliffD wrote: I already

CliffD wrote:
 I already told you. I believe by faith that a highly intelligent being is the only logical answer for the creation of such a complex structure that because of irreducible complexity must have come fully functional.

We all understand that theists hope the evidence against their theories was wrong.

CliffD wrote:
So the burden of proof is on the atheist side

There is no burden of disproof. 

Scientists come up with theories and see if the evidence matches their theories.

CliffD wrote:
So you either believe by faith or you have the scientific answer.

Exactly.

Faith is believing something you don't have evidence for.

Science tests evidence.

CliffD wrote:
Let’s look at your scientific answer.

The scientists have.

CliffD wrote:
The evidence supports the theory of Evolution

The evidence has shown evolution, yes.

CliffD wrote:
the theory of Abiogenesis is extremely well justified, and we are getting closer and closer to being able to actually replicate it

Yes. 

CliffD wrote:
That’s it.

Exactly.

CliffD wrote:
That’s your scientific answer for how the first cell came to be.

That's how we know the multiple ways that the first cells could develop purely by natural processes, yes.

CliffD wrote:
You call that science?

What did you think science was called?

CliffD wrote:
I particularly like the statement “we are getting closer to be being able to replicate it.”

It's great that we can say that, I know.

CliffD wrote:
In other words you don’t know!

That's not what I said, is it?

CliffD wrote:
We’re not any closer than we were when Darwin speculated that a cell was basically a glob of goo that gelled together with other cells.

False. The final nail in the coffin for Christianity's claim that we are descendants from Adam and Eve was the sequencing of the human genome.

Humans evolved from more primitive life forms, and we'll continue evolving away from our current form, eventually into a different species.

CliffD wrote:
 Find another theory.

There's no reason. The science is in.

We're all made of 'stardust'

CliffD wrote:
They might have backed out in Kitzmiller Vs Dover. You don’t see me backing out, do ya?

But you're an ignorant Christian, and you're completely powerless against the science and the world.

CliffD wrote:
 I was no angel before I got saved. I’d have eaten punks like you for breakfast.

Woulda

Coulda

Shouda

But instead, you're an ignorant Christian.

CliffD wrote:
ClIFFD 1 Rednef 0

And you're even stupid enough that you think you can win against the science, and float away after death and be 'one' with the man you love...

 

 

 

 

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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What is being looked for or expected.

Is science being relied on to solve what is called, "the human" problem. Or is science something that is just science and pursued as being fun. I'm not understanding the application of science in these discussions. What is science to ultimately do or solve. It's seems to be used in a generic term. I see one of the sciences that can ultimately solve the human problem and that would be psychiatry. I understand psychiatry to be a science of the mind. If that's being seen as having the solution it hasn't come up with it yet. It seems to me it should already have done so. This is an asking not a criticism.

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Ugh...Again, I submit ring

Ugh...

Again, I submit 'ring species' as an example of evidence for evolution because it clearly illustrates speciation. The populations bordering each other can interbreed, but the populations that are more geographically separated cannot. Now, one of you genius prophets explain to me how Creationism explains a ring species.

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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That's irrelevent.to my post

jcgadfly wrote:

Old Seer wrote:

from religion-government kills also. Amongst our group we see government and religion to be the same.

 

You mean you love them as long as they are benefiting you?

Of course I love them (if your referring to the team) but I'm not benefiting from them other then sharing input and output. One of you, Bob, says I need more then physics. Of course, I have a whole team of highly educated folks behind me and we all stand together. It's  as good as one having all that education that is required.. I see here that the emphasis is on science-----that's what we are. We study many things. The Bible and JC are one of them. As well as ancient cultures and their manuscripts from many places. Most are university level academics. We don't have a geologist, anyone wish to apply.

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Old Seer wrote:I see one of

Old Seer wrote:

I see one of the sciences that can ultimately solve the human problem and that would be psychiatry.

I actually agree with you...lol

Psychiatrists are MD's.

Psychologists are Phd's or Ed.D's.

Psychiatry is about studying and treating mental disorders. That's the science of medicine.

To that extent, I agree that most theists would qualify as being emotionally dysfunctional, and would benefit from psychoanalysis, but most of them would become as irrational at that suggestion as the suggestion that their gods might not be real.

Psychology would be the study of how they developed their dysfunction, or what triggered it.

Psychiatry and Psychology are not interchangeable terms.

 

 

 

 

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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You're asking good

You're asking good questions. As I understand you, "The human problem" is effectively the meaning of life problem. Science may or may not be able to answer the question. In large part because the question is so vague. What is meaning? How does meaning apply to life? Why does it, if it does (and if not, why not)? Why must there be?

These are not scientific questions. The purpose of science in human society is to understand and manipulate existence to favourable conditions for our habitation. The way people using it do that is by making a testable prediction on an aspect of existence and then testing that prediction's accuracy in as unbiased a way as one can achieve. The best way to achieve a lack of bias in experimentation is to try to prove it wrong. In this, christians and scientists have something in common. Ironically, young Earth theorists were partially responsible for proving the Earth is billions of years old.

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But science doesn't happen

But science doesn't happen instantly. Sometimes a hypothesis does appear accurate for ages before a new hypothesis explains the aspect in greater detail and less flaws. The single greatest example is gravity.
Newton came up with a hypothesis to explain gravity that was, as far as anyone could tell, perfectly accurate. It was awhile before any problems with it were even suspected, if I recall correctly. And yet, generations later, we know thanks to Einstein that Newton was not wholly correct.
Of course it is unlikely that Einstein could have figured it out had not Newton proposed the idea and therefore subjected it to centuries of tests.
But this is science determining what existence IS. Not what it means.
Meaning is something we seek to satisfy our ego and our emotions. By implying meaning to anything, we are presupposing that there is meaning. When there might not be.
Even the existence of a god wouldn't necessitate meaning.

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Old Seer wrote: Of course,

Old Seer wrote:

 Of course, I have a whole team of highly educated folks behind me and we all stand together.

Oh, we're back to definitions are we?

I think now we're up from initially having a different definition of 'intellect', to now having different definitions of 'highly educated' as well...lol

 

Keep bringing us up to speed, Man!!!

This is the B E S T !!

 

Are you Kirk Cameron or Ray Comfort, by any chance?...

 

 

 

 

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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What if the omnipotent

What if the omnipotent superbeing you believe in really does exist, but its creation of the universe was an accident it is oblivious to? We would be as bacteria to such a being, if even that much. Why would we expect it to comprehend us anymore than we can comprehend it?
Meaning is something we seek or give to feel comfortable, but it doesn't necessarily even have a basis in reality. And there is no way to test meaning, insofar as I'm aware. The meaning of life is different for different beliefs, and there is no way to judge which, if any, is accurate.
The only meaning one can have is the meaning one embraces. If you feel embracing the meaning religion gives that's fine. But you don't need religion to embrace a meaning to life. Anything that comforts you or feels right is legitimate. Science may explain why we desire meaning, but it is unlikely to provide an absolute meaning to everything. It may not be possible.

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Those three posts were

Those three posts were intended as one response, but red just had to sneak in a breaker. Sticking out tongue

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Vastet wrote: And yet,

Vastet wrote:
And yet, generations later, we know thanks to Einstein that Newton was not wholly correct. Of course it is unlikely that Einstein could have figured it out had not Newton proposed the idea and therefore subjected it to centuries of tests. But this is science determining what existence IS. Not what it means. Meaning is something we seek to satisfy our ego and our emotions. By implying meaning to anything, we are presupposing that there is meaning. When there might not be. Even the existence of a god wouldn't necessitate meaning.

Brilliantly said.

QFT

 

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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There again

if one studies the disorders he encounters the - orders, so to speak. The one on the team doesn't say they are dysfunctional, but rather deceived. Deception can create mental blocks. But I suppose a mental block can render one to be dysfunctional.

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I don't know

any of those people. I'll google them. (after Burn Notice -Netflix-of course) We didn't rely to much on outside opinions or input. We found that to many were inaccurate and made a worse problem.

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Old Seer wrote:The one on

Old Seer wrote:

The one on the team doesn't say they are dysfunctional, but rather deceived.

Dysfunction and deception (being mislead) are not even synonymous, let alone interchangeable.

 

What country exactly did you go to school in?

 

Old Seer wrote:
Deception can create mental blocks. But I suppose a mental block can render one to be dysfunctional. 

Ya fucking think?

WTF do you think indoctrinating children into religious dogma does? Have you ever been to hell and back?

Ex Theists have, without ever having been dead...

 

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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Quote:if one studies the

Quote:
if one studies the disorders he encounters the - orders, so to speak. The one on the team doesn't say they are dysfunctional, but rather deceived. Deception can create mental blocks. But I suppose a mental block can render one to be dysfunctional.

I'm sorry, but that was largely incomprehensible. I'm not clear on what you're trying to say.

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I'll try

Vastet wrote:
Quote:
if one studies the disorders he encounters the - orders, so to speak. The one on the team doesn't say they are dysfunctional, but rather deceived. Deception can create mental blocks. But I suppose a mental block can render one to be dysfunctional.
I'm sorry, but that was largely incomprehensible. I'm not clear on what you're trying to say.

If one studies one side of something the other side becomes apparent or known. If one studies disorder he /will may encounter what is order. I assume that one that studies the disorder would already know what is in order. The "one", referred to is the one that is the psycho guy.

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That's what

deception is for,  to create a dysfunction.

I am engaging in a patient discussion. I made a simple statement, you're temper is rendering you dysfunctional. I'll forward your reply to our psycho guy. Am I to assume that atheists don't believe in a God because they are dysfunctional, I don't think so, not hardly. Why is everyone else dysfunctional and your not. You want to compete---competition is an animal trait. I can be an animal too if I want to be---see-I have control of myself. State your understanding of what a human is. Deception can cause dysfunction, like it or not.

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Old Seer wrote: That's what

Old Seer wrote:
That's what deception is for,  to create a dysfunction.

People don't need any help creating their own dysfunction. A deception is to deceive people in order to gain something from them that you couldn't earn from them. 

Old Seer wrote:
I made a simple statement

You made a lot of incorrect statements, and defined terms in ways I don't think are accurate. 

Old Seer wrote:
...you're temper is rendering you dysfunctional.

You're incredibly adept at being inaccurate in your determinations and conclusions.

Being amused by you and laughing at you as much as I am, is entertainment for me, and I could completely do without it.

None of those things are dysfunctional.

 

You being an ignorant idiot is your problem. Not mine.

If you weren't such a douche on top of that, I might not mock you so much.

And if you don't think I'm this way in real life, you'd be wrong about yet another thing.

 

Old Seer wrote:
  Am I to assume that atheists don't believe in a God because they are dysfunctional, I don't think so, not hardly. Why is everyone else dysfunctional and your not.

Because I can do without god, completely. Someone who can't stop washing their hands or they have problems functioning is 'dysfunctional'.

Someone who can't live without talking about, preaching about, defending, or worrying about if Jesus loves him and will 'save' them, is completely dysfunctional.

Old Seer wrote:
 State your understanding of what a human is.

A member of the human species, a highly evolved mammalian omnivore with opposable thumbs and highly developed motor skills and brain capacity, but essentially, an animal.

AKA: Lord of the Urban Jungle

 

 

 

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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redneF wrote:Old Seer wrote:

redneF wrote:

Old Seer wrote:
That's what deception is for,  to create a dysfunction.

People don't need any help creating their own dysfunction. A deception is to deceive people in order to gain something from them that you couldn't earn from them. 

Old Seer wrote:
I made a simple statement

You made a lot of incorrect statements, and defined terms in ways I don't think are accurate. 

Old Seer wrote:
...you're temper is rendering you dysfunctional.

You're incredibly adept at being inaccurate in your determinations and conclusions.

Being amused by you and laughing at you as much as I am, is entertainment for me, and I could completely do without it.

None of those things are dysfunctional.

 

You being an ignorant idiot is your problem. Not mine.

If you weren't such a douche on top of that, I might not mock you so much.

And if you don't think I'm this way in real life, you'd be wrong about yet another thing.

 

Old Seer wrote:
  Am I to assume that atheists don't believe in a God because they are dysfunctional, I don't think so, not hardly. Why is everyone else dysfunctional and your not.

Because I can do without god, completely. Someone who can't stop washing their hands or they have problems functioning is 'dysfunctional'.

Someone who can't live without talking about, preaching about, defending, or worrying about if Jesus loves him and will 'save' them, is completely dysfunctional.

Old Seer wrote:
 State your understanding of what a human is.

A member of the human species, a highly evolved mammalian omnivore with opposable thumbs and highly developed motor skills and brain capacity, but essentially, an animal.

AKA: Lord of the Urban Jungle

 

 

 

 

You are your own problem, I'm not. Human is a spiritual being with a system of values. It is not physical, the body is physical, you are spiritual. You are made up of human traits and animal traits. No one is exempt. My spiritual is the same as yours. (don't use highly evolved to loosely) Are you animal or man. There's no such thing as a human animal. Human is human, animal is animal. They are two states of mind. Take your pick.  And, so you say what you say. I say you're wrong. Why should I assume you're right, you could be dysfunctional and I could be deceived.  If you can do without it--then don't reply to my posts.

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Humans are animals.

Humans are animals. Spirituality doesn't refer to anything. I am my body combined with experiences which are recorded and processed in my brain, which generates my mind, and is part of my body.

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So you say

Vastet wrote:
Humans are animals. Spirituality doesn't refer to anything. I am my body combined with experiences which are recorded and processed in my brain, which generates my mind, and is part of my body.

I don't believe you.

 

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Old Seer wrote: You are your

Old Seer wrote:
You are your own problem

I'm problem free, Son.

I've got it made in the shade. Got life by the balls, so to speak. 

Old Seer wrote:
I'm not.

There's no chance you could ever be a problem in my life.

Old Seer wrote:
Human is a spiritual being with a system of values.

On top of what I said, sure.

Old Seer wrote:
It is not physical, the body is physical, you are spiritual.

Why do you think spirits occupy our bodies?

Old Seer wrote:
You are made up of human traits and animal traits. No one is exempt.

None of this contradicts anything I've said.

Old Seer wrote:
My spiritual is the same as yours.

You think that, but can you show me any evidence that we can test to see if you're not just imagining this is true? 

Old Seer wrote:
There's no such thing as a human animal. Human is human, animal is animal. They are two states of mind.

You think that, but can you show me any evidence that we can test to see if you're not just imagining this is true? 

Old Seer wrote:
I say you're wrong.

I don't know why. I have all the scientific evidence that exists that is entirely compatible with my claim.

Old Seer wrote:
Why should I assume you're right

Who said that you should assume anything?

I doubt you'll find an atheist on this forum who would endorse that kind of thinking. That's what theism is all about. Assuming they're 'right'.

Old Seer wrote:
...you could be dysfunctional and I could be deceived. 

If that was your major concern, you'd never be a theist.

They don't have any evidence to back their claims. Just stories to tell.

Old Seer wrote:
If you can do without it--then don't reply to my posts.

Son, you're not the Boss of 'Me'...

 

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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Ok I'll be human about it.

I request you not answer my posts. ( I know you're not going to do it.


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You're person contains

animal traits and human traits. They are not physical. These two are spiritual states. So, you are nothing but a chemical reaction (if I am to understand this correctly) We are nothing more them brain farts. Not true. Beings with feelings and emotions cannot be brain farts.

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Old Seer wrote: We are

Old Seer wrote:
We are nothing more them brain farts.

Some humans.

I would completely agree.

 


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Old Seer wrote:I request you

Old Seer wrote:

I request you not answer my posts. ( I know you're not going to do it.

You must like talking for no good reason at all, then...

 

 

 

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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Not so

redneF wrote:

Old Seer wrote:
You are your own problem

I'm problem free, Son.

I've got it made in the shade. Got life by the balls, so to speak. 

Old Seer wrote:
I'm not.

There's no chance you could ever be a problem in my life.

Old Seer wrote:
Human is a spiritual being with a system of values.

On top of what I said, sure.

Old Seer wrote:
It is not physical, the body is physical, you are spiritual.

Why do you think spirits occupy our bodies?

Old Seer wrote:
You are made up of human traits and animal traits. No one is exempt.

None of this contradicts anything I've said.

Old Seer wrote:
My spiritual is the same as yours.

You think that, but can you show me any evidence that we can test to see if you're not just imagining this is true? 

Old Seer wrote:
There's no such thing as a human animal. Human is human, animal is animal. They are two states of mind.

You think that, but can you show me any evidence that we can test to see if you're not just imagining this is true? 

Old Seer wrote:
I say you're wrong.

I don't know why. I have all the scientific evidence that exists that is entirely compatible with my claim.

Old Seer wrote:
Why should I assume you're right

Who said that you should assume anything?

I doubt you'll find an atheist on this forum who would endorse that kind of thinking. That's what theism is all about. Assuming they're 'right'.

Old Seer wrote:
...you could be dysfunctional and I could be deceived. 

If that was your major concern, you'd never be a theist.

They don't have any evidence to back their claims. Just stories to tell.

Old Seer wrote:
If you can do without it--then don't reply to my posts.

Son, you're not the Boss of 'Me'...

 

 

I see problems.

Well there was shown to be some problem or another.

A spiritual being cannot be material. IE-love is the an emotion. The emotion is or can be caused by a chemical inducement. But, is it physical. You can picture material things of course, but can you see love within the brain. If you can, draw a pic and post it. If you can't then the result of the chemicals  the brain is something spiritual. Poof, there you are, you're invisible. All the other things of you are invisible also. The body is not you. Your bod doesn't tell me what kind of person you are---but those invisible things do.

Test- just did-the test, it is within your bod.

Test- Your attack on me could only come from those invisible animal traits.

It's your science against my guys, they're scientist too. maybe we found something your unfamiliar with. Maybe we found something that's new or has always been here and merely put it together. No, were' not from outer space. I'm a physicist I know about that.

There are time one must make assumptions. You've been around long enough to know that.

I'm not trying to be a theist or deist, and I'm not an atheist. I could be knowledgeable about something new, Maybe I'm JC and finally got back.

Yes, spirit does occupy one's bod--it's you.

I'm not looking for endorsements. I have plenty from my own guys. They agree, we're spiritual

Well they have evidence they just don't know what it is. They've been deceived haven't they. We're working on them too.

I'm not trying to be your boss. My way is to refrain from ruling over others. Seeking superiority comes from animal traits. You can call me son if you want, Old seer means just that. I may be older then you.  I won't go farther with that.

 

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Old Seer wrote: IE-love is

Old Seer wrote:
IE-love is the an emotion. The emotion is or can be caused by a chemical inducement. But, is it physical. You can picture material things of course, but can you see love within the brain. If you can, draw a pic and post it. If you can't then the result of the chemicals  the brain is something spiritual. Poof, there you are, you're invisible. All the other things of you are invisible also. The body is not you. Your bod doesn't tell me what kind of person you are---but those invisible things do.

 

What about 'confusion'? Is that immaterial as well? Can you draw me a pic of 'confusion'?

Confusion is a 'part' of being human.

Where does that go when I'm dead?

Does that go to heaven as well?

What about anger?

What about hate?

Aren't love and hate 2 sides of the same coin?

Can you draw me a picture of hate? We know it exists. There's so much of it around. If there's light, there's dark, right?

If there's love, there's gotta be hate.

Old Seer wrote:
Test- just did-the test, it is within your bod.

I don't believe that what you say is true.

Old Seer wrote:
It's your science against my guys, they're scientist too. 

I don't think you have a way of knowing if you're wrong. That's not science, unless you want to label 'speculation' as science.

Here's yet another place where you and I have 2 different definitions of terms.

How many years of school does it take to imagine things that you have no way of being sure you're wrong? 

Old Seer wrote:
...maybe we found something your unfamiliar with.

Not sure what you're talking about.

Speculation wasn't invented yesterday, yanno...

Old Seer wrote:
Yes, spirit does occupy one's bod--it's you.

I can't tell you that you're wrong, because I don't think I know everything.

By the same token, you can't tell me you're right, because you I don't think you know everything.

That's why I don't believe you are right.

I don't know why you do...

 

 

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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And you're even stupid enough that you think you can win against

Question. Provide scientific answer of how first cell came to be? Describe how evolution gets passed the problem of irreducible complexity with thousands of encyclopedia’s full of pre programmed information. Show evidence.

Rational answer- That's why you freaks got bitchslapped down in Kitzmiller v. Dover, and why so many of the Discovery Institute's 'witnesses backed down when they faced prison sentences for trying to claim 'non science' as science.
ClIFFD 1 Rednuts 0

I already told you. I believe by faith that a highly intelligent being is the only logical answer for the creation of such a complex structure that because of irreducible complexity must have come fully functional. So the burden of proof is on the atheist side, who are so sure how it happened and apparently must have the evidence. So you either believe by faith or you have the scientific answer. Let’s look at your scientific answer. The evidence supports the theory of Evolution, and the theory of Abiogenesis is extremely well justified, and we are getting closer and closer to being able to actually replicate it, without any supernatural 'incantations' like the biblical myth and legend. That’s it. That’s your scientific answer for how the first cell came to be. You call that science? I particularly like the statement “we are getting closer to be being able to replicate it.” In other words you don’t know! We’re not any closer than we were when Darwin speculated that a cell was basically a glob of goo that gelled together with other cells. In fact, we are getting further away from it with every discovery of how extremely complex a cell is. The more we discover, the more we are sure it definitely wasn’t by way of evolution. This is also in line with what God (there’s that word you hate so much) says about the last days “but they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water” .I mean don’t insult our intelligence. Without even mentioning God we can come up with an intelligent design theory that better fits the evidence because evolution doesn’t work. Find another theory. They might have backed out in Kitzmiller Vs Dover. You don’t see me backing out, do ya? I’m made of a bit rougher stuff than you’d think. I was no angel before I got saved. I’d have eaten punks like you for breakfast. We have an admission that it’s by faith you believe how the first cell came to be. That’s why I chalked the 1 up on the right,

An ignorant Christian who’s going to show you how weak your atheist argument is! I see now the way the rational response unit deal with everything that’s put to them. Insults, distort the argument and edit everything that people ask of ye so ye can’t be seen by others how weak ye really are. It’s ok. Buddy. I understand ye have a lot of faith in ye’re religion as proved by the request for scientific proof and you’re complete inability to provide it. So, since faith covers a gap in knowledge, you believe by faith that the first cell of complex life spontaneously developed into a living thing. What a magical event. Life from non - life. At least God’s description in the very first 10 lines of Genesis provide is a more believable account. In the beginning, (time), God (a highly intelligent and personable being) created (came fully formed) the Heavens (space) and the earth (matter). So, in the very first 10 Words of Genesis you have your time, space continuum set out. We can study using science if His design has any signs of intelligent design and we can see is there evidence that life had to come fully formed or is it possible that it magically grew from non - life.
Look I understand that people like you, who spend a lot of time huddled over their computers get up to some very freaky things. (I’m not being judgmental. You just strike me as such a person. Just saying it like it is brother so we can go about getting you set free).Don’t let that discourage you before a holy God. He loves you. That’s why His sinless, spotless son had to take your judgment. The blood of Jesus Christ will wash all that sin away. It’s going to be a tough process but your admission of faith in your religion has been a monumental first step. Hang in there buddy. I understand the demons in you are tormenting you in your bed at night. Jesus Christ came to save that which was lost. He is the way, the truth and the life. Sorry, for the sermon there brother. I just have to get those demons in you agitated so they know who’s boss. We don’t want them thinking we’re afraid of their petty insults and attempts to ridicule us. They flee and hide from the blood. We’re looking for rational responses from the rational response squad not petty insults and ridiculous statements of faith in their religion. So, for our next lesson we’ll deal with the historicity of the Biblical account, the forensic science methods we can use to seek out truth and authenticity of historical documents and the evidence that the apostles were telling the truth. There’s that word the followers of evolutionism hate so much, evidence. I will keep that one chalked up. I think, rightfully earned it. I’m going to rightfully earn another few in the next lesson. You take care, now, brother Rednef.

CliffD 1 Rednuts 0


Vastet
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Old Seer wrote:Vastet

Old Seer wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Humans are animals. Spirituality doesn't refer to anything. I am my body combined with experiences which are recorded and processed in my brain, which generates my mind, and is part of my body.

I don't believe you.

 

Your belief is inconsequential and irrelevant. Fact is fact.

As for CliffD, he loses another point for repeating the same bs that lost him the first point in some ridiculous attempt to force his notions on reality, which shrugs him aside easily. A glaring example of the illogical and irrational nature of theists is shown by CliffD when he repeats an experiment, anticipates different results, but finds nothing changed.

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That's a common verbal ploy

I find all over this forum. Not going to work. "If" you have a system of belief (I'm not saying you have) or beliefs why is everyone Else's inconsequential and your's isn't. Any one can make the same claim of anyone. What you folks have done here is--you say there's no God and you can't prove it, if you look to material sciences for truth then science is your God. Sorry, You still got one. I find it outstanding that Atheists are their own source of all understanding and knowledge. Read my other posts, you'll get my drift, (so to speak). Within the brain there is a person, the person is not the brain. The person is what the brain produces, what the brain produces is something invisible---it is you. Or maybe you're not a person. There-fore you cannot be the body. Human and animal is"the personage". The mentality and being/person of a dog etal is no different then ours, the body is different. Dog merely referees to a type of body. What is refereed to as "dog" also has a human side. Then, would not the "dog" also have a "Human" body. That would mean anything that has a body is human. Human then has to be something else. All bodies are made of the same materials. Is this not so.

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Listen dude. I'll deal with

Listen dude. I'll deal with you when I'm finished with red nuts. Just for the time being i'll repeat what you said "As for CliffD, he loses another point for repeating the same bs that lost him the first point in some ridiculous attempt to force his notions on reality, which shrugs him aside easily. A glaring example of the illogical and irrational nature of theists is shown by CliffD when he repeats an experiment, anticipates different results, but finds nothing changed." What are you on about???????????????????????????????????????? I asked for the scientific evidence that the atheists seem to have hidden away of how the first cell magically developed into life from non life. So either put up a detailed scientific research experiment that grew a living thing from a non - living thing or give a declaration of faith in evolutionism. I'll decide when the points get added and taken between me and red nuts.  I'll put you on the who's next list after I'm finished with red nuts. Be patient. You'll get your turn too.CliffD


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According to science, there

According to science, there was no "first cell". By the time something we could identify as a "cell" appeared, there would have been billions of them, along with there immediate precursors, which would have been simpler 'organisms'.

There would have been no single first 'life'.

There would have been many pockets of 'pre-biotic' chemistry, where various forms of the simplest self-replicating molecules, probably RNA, formed. Once you get a minimal self-replicating system, some form of the basic evolutionary process can start to work, and away we go.

There have been no demonstrated examples of 'irreducible complexity'. It would require one to show that there was no viable path from an existing structure to the claimed example. And remember that evolution is blind, so the intermediate forms need not have functionality directly related to the 'final' structure. All they need is some minimally positive function. Mutation often produces a new form with a new or additional functionality.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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While that seems like a very

While that seems like a very fancy and educated answer it is nonetheless a theory. You have the same problem red nuts has. There is absolutely no evidence to support it. A fancy theory is a marvelous thing. However, we would like to see the science experiment and observable research that has created such a wonderful living thing. Until then, you have the same problem rednuts has. You just think that by using the old Dawkins method of baffling people with BS, that to the scientifically uneducated it seems like a very plausible answer. Scientific report of how to create such a living thing or declaration of faith in such a wonderfully contrived and well thought out theory.


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According to science, there was no "first cell"

Were the scientists there millions and millions and millions of years ago to record such an event? While that seems like a very fancy and educated answer it is nonetheless a theory. You have the same problem red nuts has. There is absolutely no evidence to support it. A fancy theory is a marvelous thing. However, we would like to see the science experiment and observable research that has created such a wonderful living thing. Until then, you have the same problem rednuts has. You just think that by using the old Dawkins method of baffling people with BS, that to the scientifically uneducated it seems like a very plausible answer. Scientific report of how to create such a living thing or declaration of faith in such a wonderfully contrived and well thought out theory is what we are asking for. You have just given the declaration of faith answer. You still jumped from non life to life, a little more cleverly but nonetheless that's what you did.


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'Evidence' is not restricted

'Evidence' is not restricted to what you can see or sample at the time.

We have many sources of indirect evidence, and experiments have been run to show that RNA can form spontaneously under various plausible conditions likely to have been present on the early Earth. And that organisms subject to selective pressure can evolve new characteristics, ie evolution can work.

Many of the basic component chemicals necessary for these processes have been detected on meteorites, so we know they are available more widely than just on Earth.

The conditions on the early Earth are estimated, among other ways, from geological studies of deep stata, analysis of the composition of ancient rocks, dated by various forms of radiometric and other techniques, which themselves have been tested and verified in many ways. For radiometric dating to be not a reliable technique would in turn overturn some very basic principles of Physics. 

Scientific theories are given appropriate degrees of confidence based on their connection with many other well-tested scientific results.

====

Now what is your evidence for a God creation, or the events of the Bible? You weren't there...

Bear in mind that eye-witness testimony and human memory are very unreliable, especially when unusual events are being reported.

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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Amusing how hard theists try

Amusing how hard theists try and fail to prove some flaw in science when putting even a fraction of the effort into their own beliefs would end their beliefs.

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Holy Kow Bob

BobSpence wrote:

According to science, there was no "first cell". By the time something we could identify as a "cell" appeared, there would have been billions of them, along with there immediate precursors, which would have been simpler 'organisms'.

There would have been no single first 'life'.

There would have been many pockets of 'pre-biotic' chemistry, where various forms of the simplest self-replicating molecules, probably RNA, formed. Once you get a minimal self-replicating system, some form of the basic evolutionary process can start to work, and away we go.

There have been no demonstrated examples of 'irreducible complexity'. It would require one to show that there was no viable path from an existing structure to the claimed example. And remember that evolution is blind, so the intermediate forms need not have functionality directly related to the 'final' structure. All they need is some minimally positive function. Mutation often produces a new form with a new or additional functionality.

 

This is one of them deals that sounds like our Bio guy. I have no idea what he's getting at, but there again I'd have to take him at his word. It's his area of endeavors so who am I to say. But, do you have anything for me. You may be into physics but if not do you need any advice on gear ratios, elasticity, steam power, etc. Just kidding.

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Hold it hold it hold it

redneF wrote:

Old Seer wrote:
IE-love is the an emotion. The emotion is or can be caused by a chemical inducement. But, is it physical. You can picture material things of course, but can you see love within the brain. If you can, draw a pic and post it. If you can't then the result of the chemicals  the brain is something spiritual. Poof, there you are, you're invisible. All the other things of you are invisible also. The body is not you. Your bod doesn't tell me what kind of person you are---but those invisible things do.

 

What about 'confusion'? Is that immaterial as well? Can you draw me a pic of 'confusion'?

Confusion is a 'part' of being human.

Where does that go when I'm dead?

Does that go to heaven as well?

What about anger?

What about hate?

Aren't love and hate 2 sides of the same coin?

Can you draw me a picture of hate? We know it exists. There's so much of it around. If there's light, there's dark, right?

If there's love, there's gotta be hate.

Old Seer wrote:
Test- just did-the test, it is within your bod.

I don't believe that what you say is true.

Old Seer wrote:
It's your science against my guys, they're scientist too. 

I don't think you have a way of knowing if you're wrong. That's not science, unless you want to label 'speculation' as science.

Here's yet another place where you and I have 2 different definitions of terms.

How many years of school does it take to imagine things that you have no way of being sure you're wrong? 

Old Seer wrote:
...maybe we found something your unfamiliar with.

Not sure what you're talking about.

Speculation wasn't invented yesterday, yanno...

Old Seer wrote:
Yes, spirit does occupy one's bod--it's you.

I can't tell you that you're wrong, because I don't think I know everything.

By the same token, you can't tell me you're right, because you I don't think you know everything.

That's why I don't believe you are right.

I don't know why you do...

 

 

No I don't know everything. I know only what I know.

No I can't draw a picture of confusion. That's a point of thought for you to contemplate. I only brought it up as an example for you to understand where I'm coming from. If it's in your mind and can't produce a picture as a material item, then it's spiritual. Animals get confused, or beings in different bodies get confused.

You don't exist when yer ded. zip, gone , kopoot. zero. No it doesn't go to heaven. You are placing me in with theists of which I'm not, nor am I a deist. Heaven is a state of mind where within one is happy. That can be acquired during one's life. The trick is to remain happy most of the time.

Anger, hate and love are neutrals. They can be applied to anything, but yes, they are not material. Love and hate is two sides of one's person. We may possess lots of neutrals. we're still sorting that out. Everything could be a neutral until it's applied to something. See, we don't know everyhting.

I'm not asking or expecting you to believe what I say. I present it for your analysis. If you reject it, so be it.

You are evidence of what I'm stating. No test is really needed. You are a "you" are you not.

You say you are human. I say you are Human and animal. These are two states of "being". You are in possession of both are you not.

Ok, you are evidence that we are right. I present evidence of me as being right, and being the same as you then we know we are right about you.

Speculation is indeed a part of science. There are certain times one must speculate before an answer is found. If an answer is unknown at the beginning of a problem one can speculate at least to get a start. Speculation is of no value after a solution is found.

(Maybe we found something you're unfamiliar with) Not being a theist or deist, and not an atheist kinda puts us in the middle. We say you're both wrong. We don't question your science. Our material science has it's proofs the same as your material science, we don't differ there. .  We're saying your wrong on what a Human is. Human and animal can't be proven by material science as it may come under the mental sciences. Human and animal are two directions within ones mentality. IE- competition is derived from animal traits.

The human and animal are not your body, it is you. Now that you know all you need do is ---make a choice.

You can choose between one or the other, and if you can-we're right.

On your next post , if you do, you might release your attack dog. Be careful, I have one too.

 

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It doesn't

butterbattle wrote:

Ugh...

Again, I submit 'ring species' as an example of evidence for evolution because it clearly illustrates speciation. The populations bordering each other can interbreed, but the populations that are more geographically separated cannot. Now, one of you genius prophets explain to me how Creationism explains a ring species.

 

That's not what biblical Creation is about. When the pope finds out it's gonna blow his drawers off.

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Evidence' is not restricted to what you can see or sample at the

While we may not have a need for evidence from the actual event as it was a one time event we do however require in real time a working testable sample of how your beautiful theory actually can be physically seen to work in a testable. observable, scientific (Yes we want science) experiment.
I have much respect for your religious beliefs. That is a beautiful creed of your religion. Again “I particularly like the statement “evidence is not what you can see or sample at the time” Is that a statement that’s true for just atheists or is it true for Christians also. You’re just after making our workload in having to provide evidence for the proof of a theistic God so much easier. I have looked at your religious creed and it fails on so many levels. We’ll put it through the probability , logic and science test later on and show how much of a ridiculous statement of faith it really is. For the time being I’m not interested in it. What’s interesting to note is the Christian says we want to see your scientific proof of how to start life from non – life and the follower of evolutionism says “Oh, we don’t need physical evidence at a physical point in time. We have a beautiful theory” So do we. What ye fail to understand is the born again Christian has had a physical encounter with the living, holy God. If He exists, then the Bible is true and we can prove it to be so. His creation will have His fingerprints all over it. Because we know 100% that there is a God and He is the holy God of the Bible, we can prove it. We can say evolution must be a false religion, which the Bible says will abound in these last days before Christ returns. We are then in the enlightened position of being able to ask the deluded atheists for evidence of the first cell magically developing in to life and surprise, surprise we get told. “ Em, we actually haven’t got it but we have a beautiful theory on how it works, and you don’t need physical evidence anymore”. We’re going to shine a little light into the corridor’s of atheism. You watch as I put Rednuts through the ringer over the next few weeks to see how weak your faith really is. I don’t need your declaration of faith in evolutionism. I can pull the atheist theory apart on a hundred different levels and prove that it is indeed spawned by the devil himself and is a direct attack on the holy throne on God to lead the deluded masses to Hell. We can provide evidence or perhaps it’s not needed anymore, is it? You watch ol’ red nuts squirm over the next few weeks and retaliate with childish name calling and no evidence. Thanks for the beautiful creed and statement of faith. We would however, like to see the evidence which is what you're get from us.


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why?

 I'm a lifelong atheist, but honestly I don't get the religion hating.  Someone explain it to me?  I've never felt threatened by religion or prayers or being witnessed to or my grandma who thinks the Earth is 6000 years old and we rode dinosaurs.  It's just cute.  People, theist or atheist, have irrational beliefs.  Atheists try, more often than not, to have only rational beliefs but we don't always succeed.  So what's with the insane judgement all the time?  Is someone saying a prayer really offensive to you?  Maybe it's because I wasn't raised with religion so I never had a nun smack my hands with a ruler, but what's so damn offensive about religion?  I've been open with my atheism my whole life and I live in the mid-west and most of the people I know are republicans.  No one cares.  Not a single person has ever cared that I'm an atheist.  

And, don't tell me theists control the government.  For starters, nothing that has happened in the past 50 years in the US has much of anything to do with religion.  So you may not get a partial birth abortion in some states, oooooo, the horror.  Not to mention you couldn't get ANY abortion before that.  Or someone, somewhere might want to pray quietly at school.  Theocrats!  Who fucking cares?  And why?!   And, don't tell me religion has killed more people...yada, yada, yada...communism has killed waaaaay more people in a much shorter amount of time.  So atheism sure hasn't helped anyone there.  Not to mention, how many people are actually GOOD people because they think there might be eternal ramifications for their actions?  Sure, we may not need the incentive, but some people do.  I don't think that in the modern USA religion makes people do a lot of violent or aggressive things.  I think it's usually the excuse for a lot of violent and aggressive things.  Things that crazy people probably would've done anyway.   I also think that through history this was true as well.  People have always been xenophobic, it's in our nature, it's part of evolutionary biology.  We have to fight to overcome it.  Religion was just one of those ways that we helped weed out the us from the them.  (Which is one of the reasons we should get rid of it but not why we need to be incredibly rude to people who believe in it.  It's thousands of years old and the default setting for most people.  It takes time and patience to overcome that.) 

I'm sure  I posted this in the wrong forum and I apologize but I'm constantly embarrassed by how aggressive and arrogant atheists are and I just wanted to lay it out and have a discussion, and this seemed like a good place to start.

And, I'm honestly curious.  I'm not trolling.  Please tell me why filing lawsuits against school systems and wanting to remove "in God we trust" from money is a good use of time and resources.  Or why insulting religious people is a useful way to debate, instead of just laying out the logical framework with respect and manners?

I'll clarify.  I'm talking about the modern United States.  This isn't about the insane death cult of fundamentalist Islam so no changing subjects.  This is about cute old bingo playing grandmas and dorky teenagers who want to have a moment of silence at lunch in high school.  

Rachel 

 


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Hi, welcome to the forum,

Hi, welcome to the forum, Rachel.

Anonymous - like the hackers...only I can't hack shit. wrote:
Is someone saying a prayer really offensive to you?

No, not to me.

Quote:
No one cares.  Not a single person has ever cared that I'm an atheist.

You live in the midwestern U.S., told everyone you're atheist, and no one judged you for it? You are living in a very remarkable little town then. As far as I know, most people will treat you completely differently everywhere else in the midwest. I've heard plenty of stories of people essentially being exiled by their family and community.   

Quote:
Or someone, somewhere might want to pray quietly at school.

I have nothing against that.

Quote:
communism has killed waaaaay more people in a much shorter amount of time.  So atheism sure hasn't helped anyone there.

How does communism = atheism? By a broad definition of religion, communism IS a religion, idealistic communism at least.

I try not to play the who killed more people game at all, because it's very difficult to show causation.

Quote:
(Which is one of the reasons we should get rid of it

Oh, so you agree with us then?

Quote:
but not why we need to be incredibly rude to people who believe in it.  It's thousands of years old and the default setting for most people.  It takes time and patience to overcome that.)

Yes, we know that.

Quote:
And, I'm honestly curious.  I'm not trolling.

If that's the case, I recommend starting a new thread instead.

Quote:
Please tell me why filing lawsuits against school systems and wanting to remove "in God we trust" from money is a good use of time and resources.  Or why insulting religious people is a useful way to debate, instead of just laying out the logical framework with respect and manners?

I actually agree with you on most of these as well. For the lawsuits against schools, it would depend on what the lawsuit was about. For the insults, I don't see anything wrong with using humor after they've shown that they are impervious to reason.

Quote:
This isn't about the insane death cult of fundamentalist Islam so no changing subjects.  This is about cute old bingo playing grandmas and dorky teenagers who want to have a moment of silence at lunch in high school.  

Ah, well then, aren't you just assuming benign religions as part of your argument? We can't possibly disagree.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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I'm being told I have no email or ID so i'm re-posting...

 Fucking forums.  Why do they all suck?  Why can't I just post a comment without having to detail every email address and user ID and password ever?  I tried to come back to post a follow up/extra tidbit but it said I don't exist so I can only re-post and hope that you'll see any of this and forgive my multiple postings (if those multiples show up!  who knows?  it's been an hour and nothings been posted so far but I posted my first message the same way.) 

 

 

 

Hi Butter!  Thank you for responding.  I probably sounded really argumentative, so I’m happy you engaged anyway.  I really just wanted to talk about it.  J

Quote:

No one cares.  Not a single person has ever cared that I'm an atheist.

You live in the midwestern U.S., told everyone you're atheist, and no one judged you for it? You are living in a very remarkable little town then. As far as I know, most people will treat you completely differently everywhere else in the midwest. I've heard plenty of stories of people essentially being exiled by their family and community.   

Dead.  Serious.  No one.  Not only that but, before I was enlightened by libertarianism, I worked in republican politics.  No one cared.  I was open and honest and they had questions, but no one cared about it.  No one made me feel any differently for it.  Sure, I assume it’s possible someone might have been *gasp* faking it!  Maybe there was someone who thought I was an evil sinner and was going to hell.  Big fucking deal.  Someone could think I was going to hell for being a brunette.  Is that something to waste a shitload of time on? 

 

I can’t help but think that most theists have never actually known a truly religious person because if they had then they wouldn’t be such assholes to them.  Two of my best friends in life have been insane religious people.  Truly nutbags in religion.  One mormon (I almost wrote moron!) and one born again.  In my experience, no one wants you to go to hell.  They just want you to be happy and be good.  Isn’t that what we all want for people?  Sure, there are assholes who want to control your every action, but that’s not religious.  That’s just the way some people are, religious or not.

 

And, I’ve known way more judgmental atheists than I have judgmental religious people.  Hand to God (Oh, the irony!).  I’ve been spit on once and shoved to the ground once by atheists.  Not once I have ever had that happen to me at the hand of a religious person.  Both of the perpetrators were men too.  Two atheist men shoving a woman to the ground or spitting on her for her “conservative” beliefs.  I wasn’t even at a protest!  I don’t even protest about shit!  These were “friends” of mine who “accidentally” found out I didn’t believe the same things they did.  …I know…I need better friends.  Yet, somehow, I’ve told, like, dozens of theists that I’m a disbeliever and they do things like give me bibles.  I’m going to go out on a limb here and say I’d much rather get bibles than be spit on and shoved.  Sure, the plural of anecdotes is not data, but I’d take my chances with a group of religious people in the US over a group of atheists any day.      

 

What’s with the dogma of the atheist movement?  If I need a group to make me feel better about not belonging to a group then…it’s just kinda sad, you know?

 

 

Quote:

communism has killed waaaaay more people in a much shorter amount of time.  So atheism sure hasn't helped anyone there.

How does communism = atheism? By a broad definition of religion, communism IS a religion, idealistic communism at least.

I try not to play the who killed more people game at all, because it's very difficult to show causation.

 

I totally agree.  I’ve always said that when it comes to ideology, they are all equal, religious or otherwise.  I only mention it because I’ve personally found that people think of religions as being different from political ideologies.  Special in some way or not subject to the same criticisms.  Since communism is an anti-theistic political ideology, I thought it relevant to mention that this atheistic ideology was responsible for far more horrible things in a short period of time than the ideology that we all disbelieve, and some of us disbelieve aggressively.

Quote:

(Which is one of the reasons we should get rid of it

Oh, so you agree with us then?

 

Absolutely!  The issue is not whether religion should be believed or not.  The issue is how do we address believers and what level of respect we show others, especially since a lot of our complaints have to do with them treating us exactly as we are now treating them.

 

Quote:

And, I'm honestly curious.  I'm not trolling.

If that's the case, I recommend starting a new thread instead.

 

Great.  Where?  There are only a few places to pick from here and a lot seem totally unrelated.  I thought Atheist vs. Theist seemed pretty relevant. 

 

Quote:

Please tell me why filing lawsuits against school systems and wanting to remove "in God we trust" from money is a good use of time and resources.  Or why insulting religious people is a useful way to debate, instead of just laying out the logical framework with respect and manners?

I actually agree with you on most of these as well. For the lawsuits against schools, it would depend on what the lawsuit was about. For the insults, I don't see anything wrong with using humor after they've shown that they are impervious to reason.

Humor is one thing, but what’s funny about just insulting people?  As an atheist am I also supposed to have big laugh when I tell children Santa doesn’t exist?  I’ve yet to see actual humor employed in the debate between theists and atheists.  It’s just name calling and ridicule.  Mean spirited and totally counter-productive.    

What lawsuits against schools were worth the time in your opinion?  I played sports at my public school.  Before each game we said what I think is referred to as the Lord’s prayer.  The Our Father thingy.  Is that something you’d have a problem with?  Should I have sued?  At the time I distinctly remember not giving a shit.  It didn’t make me Christian.  Am I supposed to engage in the magical thinking that somehow I’ve been violated because I said a religious phrase?    

Quote:

This isn't about the insane death cult of fundamentalist Islam so no changing subjects.  This is about cute old bingo playing grandmas and dorky teenagers who want to have a moment of silence at lunch in high school.  

Ah, well then, aren't you just assuming benign religions as part of your argument? We can't possibly disagree.

Well, yeah.  If you treat all religions the same isn’t that like treating all political ideologies the same or all mental illnesses the same?  Isn’t it the point that you look at substance and not just have a knee jerk reaction?  Explain to me who the dangerous Christians are and why I should fear them to the point of demanding their silence and subjugation the way they supposedly demand mine.  I think that’s a fair thing to ask.

That’s really my issue.  What’s so dangerous about Christians that I need to curtail their rights to protect mine? 

While I’ve appreciated the fact you responded, you haven’t actually said anything.  Seriously.  Explain to me why Christians are supposed to be feared, ridiculed and/or suppressed.  What’s so bad about someone being Christian and telling me about it or wanting to celebrate it?  How does that make me unable to be an atheist? 

 

 

 

 


Old Seer
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Well Rach that's the problem.

We have an animal side and a human side. People mistakenly think their whole being to be human. The people of the world are civilized. Civilization exists out of the animal side. Force and counter force, seeking position and status above others, domination of others, etc are all extracted from one's animal side. People are under the impression that civilization is the answer to the worlds problem. But, civilization "is" the problem. No matter how an animal can be arranged the same result will occur. The animal cannot be fixed. For civilization to exist it must regulate  by force of law and police how much of animal is acceptable. . In other words, cage what brings about effects that are detrimental to the workings of the State. In civilization the animal rules. That's why history repeats itself, animal venture will always produce the same result. The idea that civilization will solve the problems is a deception by those who run it, and they also are ignorant of the animal situation. Civilization is when a few rule the many.

   Now, if you chain the animal to a tree and walk away, what do you have left, poooof, you're what a Christin is ---"supposed"---- to be. So now you can see that those who claim Christianity---are not. Throw the God idea out, it's not needed. But, if you want to rule over another then you want to be God over them. Just rule yourself and you'll have less problems. Lemme see now, what was that what one of our team pointed out. One who enslaves others becomes a slave to driving slaves, such a man has no peace. 

   

 

 

   

The only possible thing the world needs saving from are those running it.


Vastet
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Quote: I asked for the

Quote:
I asked for the scientific evidence that the atheists seem to have hidden away of how the first cell magically developed into life from non life.

You asked for evidence which has nothing to do with evolution in an attempt to disprove evolution. You repeat the attempt ad absurdum despite being corrected repeatedly. -3 points.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Atheist/theist thunder dome!

  

I’ve tried to post this twice and both times I got no error messages but it also never showed up.  Hopefully this one makes it through the ether. 

 

Hi Butter!  Thank you for responding.  I probably sounded really argumentative, so I’m happy you engaged anyway.  I really just wanted to talk about it.  J

Quote:

No one cares.  Not a single person has ever cared that I'm an atheist.

You live in the midwestern U.S., told everyone you're atheist, and no one judged you for it? You are living in a very remarkable little town then. As far as I know, most people will treat you completely differently everywhere else in the midwest. I've heard plenty of stories of people essentially being exiled by their family and community.   

Dead.  Serious.  No one.  Not only that but, before I was enlightened by libertarianism, I worked in republican politics.  No one cared.  I was open and honest and they had questions, but no one cared about it.  No one made me feel any differently for it.  Sure, I assume it’s possible someone might have been *gasp* faking it!  Maybe there was someone who thought I was an evil sinner and was going to hell.  Big fucking deal.  How do their thoughts affect me?  It’s their actions I’m worried about and they never acted on any ill will that I could see.  In fact, I was like a science experiment to them.  They wanted to know what I thought about death and morals and all that.  It was actually just a bunch of talking.  No judgments.  In fact, I can't think of a single time I've ever felt judged by a religious person, Christian or otherwise.  Maybe people haven't had my good fortune in this, but I find it hard to believe that I could be in the belly of the beast (republican politics) for almost TEN YEARS and never experience what's supposed to be the biggest and most obvious evidence of why Christianity needs to be stopped or curtailed--intolerance, judgmentalism and bigotry.  

 

And, I’ve known way more judgmental atheists than I have judgmental religious people.  Hand to “God” (Oh, the irony!).  I’ve been spit on once and shoved to the ground once by atheists.  Not once have I ever had that happen to me at the hand of a religious person.  Not when debating gay marriage, abortion or anything else.  Both of the perpetrators were men.  Two atheist men shoving a woman to the ground or spitting on her for her “conservative” beliefs.  I wasn’t even at a protest!  I don’t even protest about shit!  These were “friends” of mine who accidentally found out I didn’t believe the exact same things they did.  …I know…I need better friends.  Yet, somehow, I’ve told, like, dozens and dozens of theists that I’m a disbeliever and they do things like give me bibles.  I’m going to go out on a limb here and say I’d much rather get bibles than be spit on and shoved.  Sure, the plural of anecdotes is not data, but I’d take my chances disagreeing with a group of religious people in the US over a group of atheists any day.      

 

What’s with the dogma of the atheist movement?  If I need a group to make me feel better about not belonging to a group then…it’s just kinda sad, you know?

 

 

Quote:

communism has killed waaaaay more people in a much shorter amount of time.  So atheism sure hasn't helped anyone there.

How does communism = atheism? By a broad definition of religion, communism IS a religion, idealistic communism at least.

I try not to play the who killed more people game at all, because it's very difficult to show causation.

 

I totally agree.  I’ve always said that when it comes to ideology, they are all equal, religious or otherwise.  Since communism is an anti-theistic political ideology, I thought it relevant to mention that this atheistic ideology was responsible for far more horrible things in a short period of time than the ideology that we all disbelieve, and some of us disbelieve aggressively.  The point is that atheism doesn’t protect people from irrationality or the desire to violate another’s rights.  So, if that’s true, what’s the benefit of working towards a totally atheistic society?  I know what I think about that question.  I’d rather know the truth than believe a lie.  But, people who tend to hate religion, as opposed to just being non-believers, seem to think that religious people are somehow defective.  Communism disproves that the absence of religion is an automatic good. 

Quote:

(Which is one of the reasons we should get rid of it

Oh, so you agree with us then?

 

I believe there is no God.  I don't care to subscribe to a set of beliefs as a requirement to belong to a group.  So, yes.  I agree there is no God and people should stop believing in God.  Whether that means I agree with the point of this site or a group of atheists with a set of proscribed beliefs, I don't care.  

The issue is not whether religion should be believed or not.  The issue is how do we address believers and what level of respect we show others, especially since a lot of our complaints have to do with them treating us exactly as we are now treating them.

 

Quote:

And, I'm honestly curious.  I'm not trolling.

If that's the case, I recommend starting a new thread instead.

Will do.  Where?  There are a billion places to pick from here and some are years old and hundreds of pages long.  I didn’t want my comment to get lost because I really, really want to know why this happens.  I thought Atheist vs. Theist seemed pretty relevant, and it was conveniently located at the top of the list, so I squatted here.  J 

 

Quote:

Please tell me why filing lawsuits against school systems and wanting to remove "in God we trust" from money is a good use of time and resources.  Or why insulting religious people is a useful way to debate, instead of just laying out the logical framework with respect and manners?

I actually agree with you on most of these as well. For the lawsuits against schools, it would depend on what the lawsuit was about. For the insults, I don't see anything wrong with using humor after they've shown that they are impervious to reason.

Humor is one thing, but what’s funny about just insulting people?  As an atheist am I also supposed to have big laugh when I tell children Santa doesn’t exist?  I’ve yet to see actual humor employed in the debate between theists and atheists.  It’s just paranoid name calling and ridicule.  Mean spirited and totally counter-productive.      

What lawsuits against schools were worth the time in your opinion?  I played sports at my public school.  Before each game we said what I think is referred to as the Lord’s Prayer--the Our Father thingy.  Is that something you’d have a problem with? At the time I distinctly remember not giving a shit.  It didn’t make me Christian.  Am I supposed to engage in the magical thinking that somehow I’ve been violated because I said a religious phrase as a ritualistic bonding activity before a sporting event?  I also had this thing where I had to pull up both batting gloves twice right before I stepped in the batters box.  Does that ritual mean anything?  We all put our hands in a pile at the end of a game and chanted.  Did that mean anything?  

If it’s imaginary then how can it hurt me in any way and why should I be offended? Because it’s “irrational” is the only explanation I ever get from other atheists.  So what?  Everyone is irrational in some way.  What’s the point in getting pissed off about this brand of irrationality when they aren't threatening?  That's what I'm trying to get at here.  What's so threatening or violating about them?      

Quote:

This isn't about the insane death cult of fundamentalist Islam so no changing subjects.  This is about cute old bingo playing grandmas and dorky teenagers who want to have a moment of silence at lunch in high school.  

Ah, well then, aren't you just assuming benign religions as part of your argument? We can't possibly disagree.

Well, yeah.  I tend to avoid just lumping everything together.   If the atheists want to start targeting really dangerous theists then I hope they go after Muslims the way they’ve been going after Christians for years.   If you treat all religions the same isn’t that like treating all political ideologies the same or all mental illnesses the same?  Isn’t it the point that you look at substance and not just have a knee jerk reaction?  Explain to me who the dangerous Christians are and why I should fear them to the point of demanding their silence and subjugation the way they supposedly demand mine.  I think that’s a fair question.

That’s really my issue.  What’s so dangerous about Christians that I need to curtail their rights in order to protect mine? 

While I’ve appreciated the fact you responded, you haven’t actually said anything.  Seriously.  Explain to me why Christians are supposed to be feared, ridiculed and/or suppressed.  What’s so bad about someone being Christian and telling me about it or wanting to celebrate it?  How does that make me unable to be an atheist?  


butterbattle
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Ah, your first two posts

Ah, your first two posts actually went through. Anonymous posts must be manually approved by a moderator before they can be seen by people without a special status. 

I've started a new thread, here: http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/30625

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


ex-minister
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 butterbattle the link

 butterbattle the link above is broken. 

*** EDIT *** I fixed it.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/