Questions about God... theists answer these!

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Questions about God... theists answer these!

List of questions about God, religion and the supernatural have been compiled by IG over the years as well as some interesting ones by readers.

1. If Jesus fulfilled all the OT prophecies so well, why didn't the Jews recognize him as the messiah? - Francois Tremblay

2. If Gen 3:24 is true, why hasn't anyone found the Cherubims and the " flaming sword which turned every way"?

3. It's been proven that modern humans originated from Africa. Yet, the Adam and Eve story claims the first Humans lived in a garden in Eden, near 4 rivers. ( Most of which no one can find). One of these rivers mentioned is the Euphrates, which runs through Iraq, Syria and a portion of Turkey. What's the truth? Did man come out of Africa or near the Euphrates River? - The Infidel Guy

4. When the believer gets to Heaven, how can Heaven be utter bliss when people they love and care about are burning in Hell ? - The Infidel Guy - [Note: Some say God erases your memories of them, but if God erases your memory, you as Mr. Joe /Jane Smoe ceases to exist.]

5. How can a God have emotions, i.e. jealousy, anger, sadness, love, etc., if he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent? Emotional states are reactionary for the most part. How can God react to us if he is all-knowing and has a divine plan? - IG [Note: Indeed, many religious texts display their gods this way . Listen to the An Emotional Godshow.]
6. Why would God create a place such as hell to torture sinners forever when he foreknew who would disappoint him? - IG [Note: Some say you have a choice, but this misses the point. If God hates sin so much, why create Adam and Eve when he knew they'd sin? The only conclusion I can come up with, if Yaweh exists, is that he wanted sin to enter the world.]

7. "God is all merciful," we hear quite often. Wouldn't it be more merciful of God to simply snap sinners out of existence rather than send them to hell? Or better yet, since he's all-knowing, not allow them to be born at all? - IG
ON GOD'S LOVE & HELL
1.) God's love is superlative.
2.) God's love of man exceeds man's love of self.
3.) Man's love of self prohibits torture.
4.) Considering God's greater love for us, Hell (eternal torture) is illogical.

8. Muslims are supposed to pray 5 times a day towards Mecca. Each prayer includes a variety of ritualism and posturing. If a muslim astronaut were to land on Mars. Prayer to Mecca would be ritualistically impossible due to the rotation of Earth and Mars. Are Muslims stuck here in Earth? IG [Note: Since this was first posted, a Muslim astronaut was faced with this very dilemma. The authoritative clergy informed him to pray as he normally would. I see this no where in the Koran. You see? Religions must change, or die out. It's interesting to note that, in the Koran, the moon is believed to be in the lowest Heaven, the level for those that barely made it to Heaven. Surah 71:15-16. One problem, no man can supposedly get to Heaven until they die. Yet, we've been to the moon. Our satellites beyond that.]

9. Why haven't we seen God reattach severed heads, restore someone who was burned alive or regrow amputated limbs? Surely these would be miracles difficult to deny. - Adam Majors and IG [Note: The typical answer is that man doesn't dictate God's actions. The conundrum here however is that, if God wants us to "know" him, then surely feats such as those mentioned above would be happening all over the world. Until they do, I'll remain an atheist.]

10. Why does God entrust the spreading of 'His' word to sinners? Why doesn't he do it himself? - IG [Note: Surely God would have known that not everyone would be convinced by the reality[sic] of his Bible. If God loves us so much, we are all going to Heaven. If God knew that I would be an atheist, and he doesn't like atheists, he shouldn't have allowed me to come into existence. But he did. Therefore, I must be serving the will of God, for I exist. Smiling]

11. In II Kings 2-23/24 we read about God sending 2 she-bears to attack children for calling the prophet Elisa bald, which he was, the bears killed 42 of the children. Was this a good thing to do? -- Brandon and IG[Note: I have heard some argue that the boys were a gang. So?! I didn't read anywhere in that passage where they laid a finger on the guy . Also, what kind of bears are these that can kill 42 kids? Super Bears? Surely the kids had to be running away.]

12. I have often heard from many believers that even Satan has a presence in the church, which is why even in church people can still have impure thoughts. If Satan can find his way in the church, how do Christians know that Satan didn't find his way into the Bible and twist the whole book? After all, men did vote on which books would make the Holy Bible. - The Infidel Guy

13. Why did God allow Lot and his daughters to escape from Sodom and Gomorra when he destroyed it only to later have Lot and his daughters engage in incestuous fornication. (Genesis 19:30-36) - Disillusioned [Note: To have intercourse with daddy dearest of course.]

14. Genesis 1:28-29 shows that man and all the animals were first created herbivorous. Most young-earth Christians (ones that believes the earth is less than 10,000 years old) say that the fall of man resulted in carnivorous animals ( hence death of animals). So, why did God punish the animal kingdom, making animals kill and devour each other because of man's mistake? Or, if you're an old-earth Christian (one that accepts that animals existed on earth for billions of years before man came on the scene) then how come fossils show carnivorous animals existed before man? - http://www.caseagainstfaith.com/contact.htm.

15. Many Christians believe that God is a thinking being, that he solves problems and makes a way for them when troubles come. Does God Think? If God is thinking, did he know his thoughts before he thought them? If so, again, where is his freewill and how is God thinking at all if everything seems to be one uncontrollable action/thoughts. - The Infidel Guy [Note: I'd say a God cannot think at all. To do so, would strip him of omniscience. Thinking is a temporal process.] ON GOD'S ATEMPORALITY
1.) God, an atemporal being, created the Universe.
2.) Creation is a temporal processes because X cannot cause Y to come into being unless X existed temporally prior to Y.
3.) If God existed prior to the creation of the Universe he is a temporal being.
4.) Since God is atemporal, God cannot be the creator the Universe.
[Note: I guess I should also note here that a timeless being would be without the proposition of past, and future. But to be omniscient, God must know the past and future. Hence a God that is atemporal and omniscient cannot logically exist. Smiling]

16. I have often heard that faith is all that is neccessary to believe in God and accept the Bible as true. If this is true aren't all supernatural beliefs true since they also require "faith"? - IG ON FAITH
1.) A prerequisite to believe in a Faith is faith.
2.) Having faith is all that is required to accept a Faith (belief) as true.
3.) All Faiths are true.
[Note: Of course all Faiths aren`t true, but this is the only logical conclusion that can be drawn from a person that states that, "Faith" is how one knows God.]

17. Why didn't God just kill Adam and Eve after the Fall and start from scratch? Actually, if God is all-knowing wouldn't he know that man would need to be killed eventually anyway, (the biblical flood)? Why create Adam and Eve at all? - and ON THE GARDEN OF EDEN
1.) God is omniscient (all-knowing).
2.) God knew that before he created man that they would eat of the tree of knowledge.
3.) God placed the tree of knowledge in the Garden anyway.
4.) God wanted sin to enter the world.
[Note: If God didn`t want sin to enter the world, why create Adam and Eve at all? He knew what would happen. Why place the forbidden trees in the Garden in the first place?]

18. If a spirit is non-physical but the human body is physical, how does a spirit stay in our bodies? - IG ON SPIRITS
1.) Spirits are not physical entities.
2.) Brains are physical entities.
3.) Past experiences are stored in our physical brains, we call that, Memory..
4.) Injury can damage portions of the physical brain that store memory and can alter or erase memories completely.
5.) If human spirits exist... after death, spirits can have no memory.
[Note: Some will say the spirit stores physical memories as well, but if true, the spirit would have to be physical at least to a degree. How could a non-physical spirit store, physical memories?]

19. Does God know his own future decisions? If God is all-knowing he actually shouldn't have any decisions to make at all. Nor can he choose anything over something else. For that would mean that he is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. In fact, he can't even think if this is the case. Since he can't DO anything, he might as well not exist. - IG ON GOD'S IMMUTABILITY - Unchangingness
1. If God exists, then he is immutable.
2. If God exists, then he is the creator of the universe.
3. An immutable being cannot at one time have an intention and then at a later time not have that intention.
4. For any being to create anything, prior to the creation he must have had the intention to create it, but at a later time, after the creation, no longer have the intention to create it.
5. Thus, it is impossible for an immutable being to have created anything (from 3 and 4).
6. Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1, 2, and 5) - Theodore M. Drange

20. If God is all-knowing, how could he be disappointed in His creation? -- [Note: Indeed, wouldn't God know that before the creation of our Universe what creatures would disappoint him? That being the case why create those creatures at all? Also, in knowing absolutely the behavior of humans before creation, God cannot be disappointed either... for this world is exactly as he has planned it to be. If it's not, why create us at all?]

21. God struck down the Tower of Babel angry at the intent of the people that built them, if this is the case, many of the great pyramids ( which are bigger than any ziggurat) around the world should be rubble also, yet many still stand today. Were not the Egyptians and many other ancient pyramid builders reaching toward God /The Heavens? - IG [Note: In actuality, many of the Pharaoh's believed that, via their pyramids, they would become God's themselves.]

22. In the watchmaker analogy, a watch is used to show us intelligent design and compares that to the Universe as evidence of design. We know watches are designed because we have past experience with watches, as well as with other man made objects. My question is: What Universe is the Intelligent Design proponent using to compare this Universe with to draw such an analogy? What God did he see create a Universe? - IG

23. Why did God flood the earth to remove evil? It didn't work! Evil came right back, God should have known that would happen! So why did He bother? - PhineasBg [Note: A good example of how quickly sin returned, was Noah getting drunk just after they discovered land.]

24. If the garden of Eden was a perfect paradise as xians claim, then why did Eve even want to eat the fruit? Wouldn't a perfect place provide everything a person would want or desire and thus she would want nothing? - keyser soze [Note: Why were the trees there in the first place? Of course they love to throw the serpent into the equation. But ummm..who let the serpent into the Garden?... and why would God create such a creature knowing he would cause man's fall? Hmm.. God must have wanted the fall to happen.]

25. Why would an all-powerful god become flesh in order to sacrifice himself to himself so that his creation might escape the wrath of himself. Couldn't god, in his infinite wisdom, come up with something a little more efficient? - ON THE BODY OF CHRIST
1.) God?s flesh was known as Jesus.
2.) Flesh cannot enter into Heaven (according to Paul)
3.) God is no longer Jesus.
4.) Jesus doesn?t exist.

(Note: Many at this point will state that the spirit lives on so therefore Jesus lives. This really depends on what you believe about Jesus. Is Jesus the son of God or God in flesh? If Jesus is merely the son there is no problem.However, if Jesus ?is? God himself, we do. You see, Jesus is called Jesus because of the attribute of Flesh. If Jesus = God (who is spirit) then the entity known as Jesus ceases to exist. The flesh/body of Jesus, no longer exists and the spirit of God is still the unchanging spirit of God. No Jesus at that point. The Flesh, called Jesus, is dead.)

26. After 9/11 a lot of people have been tossing around " god bless america". Why do they keep saying this? From the looks of it god hasn't blessed anything. If god had blessed america, the 9/11 event would've never happened. Theists seem to give the answer of "everything is part of gods big plan". If everything is part of gods big plan, why are we after Bin Laden? Wasn't he and other terrorists just carrying out gods desired plan? So it seems that Bin Laden/ terrorism isnt our enemy, but god . - [Note: Unfortunately many religious nuts believe they are fulfilling their God's plan by going to war.]

27. Christians say that God is NOT the author of confusion. Can you say, Tower of Babel? - The Screaming Monkeys

28. If Noah's flood supposedly covered the earth for a year, regardless of whether or not all the animals could fit on the ark, what the heck happened to all the plants? Can you imagine a cactus surviving under 4 miles of water for a year? I can't either! - Kyle Giblet [Note: With God all things are possible. Oh wait, except in Judges 1:19.]

29. The highest rainfall ever recorded in a 24 hour period was 47inches in the Reunion Islands in 1947 (during a severe tropical storm). To cover the whole earth to a depth of 5.6 miles, and cover the mountain tops (i.e. Mount Everest), it would need to rain at a rate of 372 (three hundred and seventy two) inches per hour, over the entire surface of the earth. Can rain fall at such an astronomical rate? Where did all the water come from?? Where did it all go to??? And would not the dynamics of the earth be so out of balance (tides etc.) that the earth would become so unstable that it would wobble off into outer space???? -

30. What do Muslim women get in Paradise? - IG [Note: Some Muslims I have interviewed about this say that Muslim women will get the same thing men get or equal value. Smiling Oh really? So Muslim women will get 72 virgin men? lol. If Muslim men get 72 virgins, where are all these virgin women coming from? What of their freewill? Is Allah creating these women to be slaves to the men in Paradise?]

31. In the "Last Days" Jesus is supposed to appear in the clouds. How are the Christians on the opposite end of the world going to see him? Are there going to be millions of Jesus'? What about people that work underground? What about people in deep space? -

32. The Bible says that God is a jealous God . How is this an example of a moral absolute of which man is supposed to follow? - IG ON GOD`S JEALOUSY
1.) "God is love." 1 John 4:8.
2.) "Love is not jealous." 1 Cor 13:4
3.) "I, the Lord thy God, am a jealous God." Exodus 20:5.
4.) The Christian god cannot logically exist.
(NOte: Basically love is NOT jealous, yet god is jealous, then God can`t be love. But if god IS love he cannot be jealous. Be he is.)

33. A true Muslim man is not supposed to do anything that the prophet Muhammad didn't do. If one remembers there was a big debate over whether or not Muslims should eat Mangos. If this is true, why in the Hell were these Islamic Fundamentalists flying airplanes? - IG

34. If the earth was covered by a complete global flood, every living creature killed except those surviving on the ark, why are there many completely unique animal species in Australia that are found no where else indigenously on the earth? -

35. If god is omniscient and " god is love," why would he allow a child to be conceived, knowing that that child would one day reject him and spend eternity burning in a lake of fire?- TiredTurkeyProd

36. Revelations is supposed to take place on Earth. What if we colonize the moon or Mars or inhabit a self-sustaining space station? Do we escape "judgement"? -- Ray Sommers [Note: No we don't Ray... and of course we all know that if there is any intelligent life out there besides us, they are all going to Hell too. Eye-wink]

37. Isaiah 40:28 says, "...the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is he weary?" If this is true, why did God rest on the seventh day?- IG

38. Everytime I go to a funeral the preacher and guests always say that " God " has called that person to Heaven or they say, " God said it was time to come home", or some such variation. If God is calling these people "home", why are we putting the murderers of these victims in prison? How can we punish a man or woman for doing God's will? - IG

39. Does God have a gender? In most churches, God is predominately referred to as a "he"? - IG [Note: The Bible says God is male, but what does this mean? Does God have a penis? Does he have hormones that dictate his gender? Smiling]

40. Why can't we wait until we get to Heaven to worship God ? Why would it be too late? - IG

41. What is the purpose of prayer? What can a finite being on Earth possibly tell an omnipotent, omniscient deity that he doesn't know already? - IG ON PRAYER
1.) Humans can?t change God?s mind for he has a divine plan and is unchangeable.
2.) Prayer can't change God's mind.
3.) Prayer doesn't change anything.
(Prayer may make you feel better emotionally, but it doesn`t change God`s mind.)

42. Some say Jesus was the all-knowing God. Jesus would have known then that when he died he'd be in heaven in less than 3 days to rule. If Jesus is alive and ruling today, what did he sacrifice? -- Cyndy Hammond

43. God knows that men are sinners, untrustworthy and evil, why does God leave it up to fallible man (clergy..etc) to teach others about his word? Why would he put our eternal souls at risk if he loves us so much? - The Infidel Guy and Danno778

44. Did Adam have nipples? If so, how did he acquire them? In fact, why would God give "later man" nipples at all? They serve no purpose other than lactation. Some say pleasure. Where is that in Genesis exactly? All mammals have nipples as well, are theirs pleasureful for them too? Many men don't find their nipples pleasurable at all. - IG

45. How did Adam and Eve know it was wrong to disobey God if they hadn't eaten of the tree of knowledge (of good and evil) yet? You can't blame them if they didn't know. - IG

46. If God has such a tremendous problem with uncircumcised penises, why did he make man with foreskin in the first place? - IG [Note: Some say, "So God can recognize his chosen people." Recognize? Is God so stupid that he has to physically look at men's penises? If not God, do other men need to? lol.]

47. Did Noah have fish onboard? Salt or Fresh? Since fresh water fish would die in salt, and salt water fish would die in fresh, only one type of fish would survive. Yet....?" - Frank Monaco

48. Why does the omnipotent, omnipresent God need help from man or angels to spread his word or do acts? - IG [Note: Some say God doesn't need help. But apparently he does.] - IG

49. How did Jesus ascend to Heaven in the Flesh when Paul says that flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of Heaven? (1 Cor.15:50) - IG [Note: Some say, well Paul said that and not Jesus. Yet they quote Paul when it suits there purposes.]

50. If God wants us to live right and choose "the good," why did he create evil? (Isaiah 45:6,7) Not to mention he already knows which people are not going to choose "the good" so why create those people in the first place? It seems that many people are born to go to Hell. - IG ON HELL
1.) God is all-knowing.
2.) Before I was born God knew I wouldn?t believe in him.
3.) I was born to go to Hell.
(Sure you may say I have a choice, but I think I`ve proven already that I really don`t. I`m simply fulfilling the will of God by being an atheist aren`t I? If I`m not, I shouldn`t exist: For God would have known that before I was created that I wouldn`t believe in him.)

51. I hear Christians all the time speaking of a spiritual war between Heaven and Hell, if this is true does God have limitations of power? Man only conducts wars because of our limitations of power and foresight. God has both all-power and all-knowledge, no reason for war of any kind. - IG

52. The Bible is full of phrases beginning with, "and the lord saw". Didn't he know before hand? - IG

53. How can a psychologist condone belief in something not proven to exist, when people are put into mental institutions on a daily basis for the same thing? i.e. aliens, fairies, imaginary people (Multiple Personality Disorders..)? - Dan Denton [Note: I'm sure that some of the pious believe that they are improperly placed there as well Dan. Smiling]

54. If Christians say they know God exists and that he will work miracles, what do they need faith for? Faith is not knowing. - IG

55. Brain, or shall I say, body transplants, will eventually be possible, where would the soul be then? Where is the soul? - IG

56. If God really wants us to know him, why doesn't he place the knowledge of him in our minds at birth? The same way many theists believe that God implants our sense of right and wrong in us a right birth. - IG

57. If God was Jesus' father (not Joseph), then why is Jesus' family tree traced through Joseph? -- Cyndy Hammond

58. What image of God was man made from? Couldn't have been a moral one or physical one. - IG [Note: One would suspect that an image of God would be perfect and cannot sin. Oops.]

59. Why can't God appear before everyone at the same time? Everyone in the world would then "know" he exists and not have solely "believe". And please, don't say he already tried that. Surely a God knows exactly what to do to convince a measly human of his existence. - IG

60. According to the New Testament Matthew 5:17 says "Do not suppose that I have come to abolish the Law and the prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to complete. I tell you this: so long as heaven and earth endure, not a letter, not a stroke, will disappear from the Law until all that must happen has Happened." So since Jesus has not returned the "Law" is still in effect, so why aren't we still burning witches, stoning adulterers and disobedient children, killing homosexuals, ostracizing people that work on the Sabbath (nurses, doctors etc.), flinging blood onto the horns of the alter, pulling off the heads of small birds, and don't forget human sacrifice to God (Leviticus 27 P.28 )? -- Sheila L. Chambers

61. If there is freewill in Heaven yet everyone has chosen good and is happy, isn't that proof that God could have made us with freewill, choosing good ( God ) and still being happy on Earth? - Dennis Hendrix [Note: In other words, evil didn't have to exist after all. Hey wait, even in Heaven apparently, evil can exist. At least for a short while. Satan became evil and was in heaven. Apparently he even had enough time to form an Army against God. Wow. Maybe Heaven won't be as peaceful as many believe.]

62. Why does God have a plan? Man is limited in power so we make plans because we are not all-knowing nor all-powerful. If God has a plan, isn't he reduced to a mere finite being? - IG

63. How could the all-merciful/loving God watch billions of his children burn over and over again for eternity? - IG [Note: Of course this is geared to those that believe in a fiery hell. I am well aware that not all Christians believe in a fiery Hell.]

64. Before reading and writing were invented (5000BC), on what basis did God use to judge the people who died before the Hebrew and Greek text (BIBLE) were written? -- [Note: They are all roasting in Hell. Smiling]

65. Many Christians tell me that I will "burn in hell". If I have a soul, how can a soul burn? Aren't souls non-physical entities? - IG [Note: Some Christians groups believe that you will be given new bodies after judgement. However, if true, what's the significance of a spirit in the first place?]

66. How can one hold to the barbaric belief that something has to DIE in order to appease a god for a bad deed? -- Nickolaus Wing [Note: Because an old book says so Nick.]

67. Why does SIDS (Sudden Infant Death Syndrome) occur? Why would God allow a baby to live for such a short period of time? Why not just let them not be born in the first place? -- Terry Clark [Note: This actually happened to a friend of mine. Not even God himself could console her.]

68. If Jesus was nailed and died on Friday evening, and walked out of the tomb on Sunday morning, where's the 3rd NIGHT he predicted? Per Matthew 12:40: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. -

69. Many Christians claim that hell is merely existence outside of God ?s presence (C.S. Lewis among others). If this is the case, then Jesus could not have descended into hell (being God Himself). As a result, are you sure your sins are forgiven? - Byron Bultsma

70. Ten to twenty percent of all women who discover they are pregnant suffer a miscarriage. Also, it is estimated that anywhere from 14 to 50 percent of all pregnancies end in miscarriage. Seeing this is all part of God 's plan, does this make God the world's number one abortion provider? - Jim

71. What if, when you get to Heaven, you saw God causing pain and suffering out of anger or for the purpose of entertaining himself. What if he required people in heaven to praise and worship him non-stop even to the point of causing his worshipers discomfort, pain and boredom. What if, when he was bored, angry, or jealous, he would create natural disasters to make himself feel better. Would you still follow him? - Fernando [Note: Of course they would Fernando, many people followed Hitler out of fear as well.]

72. In Leviticus, the bible condemns homosexuality as an "abomination", giving some Christians a reason to hate, harass, torture and kill gays and even picket their funderals with " God hates fags" signs. In the same book of the bible the eating of shellfish is equally an "abomination". Are these Christians planning to go after the patrons of Red Lobster next? - [Note: hee-hee, that's all I can say. Jewish Law states that eating Fish without scales is an abomination and thus the Shark is one among the list. However, sharks do have scales, Placoid scales, one of the many reasons why a shark is called a Fish .]

73. Christians will tell you that if a baby dies it goes to heaven. Why then are they so against abortion? All the child is being deprived of is the opportunity to go to hell. Either that or god expects unborn fetuses to accept Jesus. -

74. If one could prove to you incontrovertibly that Jesus and God were all human fabrications would still believe? And why? - LOGICnREASON [Note: If you say yes. Then you are not concerned with the truth, you simply WANT to believe; and if you WANT to believe, indeed, there is nothing anyone can tell you..]

75. It is often said that God allows evil because one could not meaningfully appreciate good without experiencing its opposite. Why is it necessary to experience the opposite of something in order to appreciate it? Must I experience death in order to meaningfully appreciate life? -excidius

76. Bible literalists want you to believe that God's Word in the Bible is meant to be taken literally. If this is the case, why was Jesus fond of explaining things in parable and metaphor? Was Jesus literally discussing the biology of mustard seeds, or was the mustard seed parable meant to be interpreted figuratively as faith? -excidius

77. Liberal Christians say some parts of the Bible are literally true, but much else is to be interpreted figuratively as allegory. How do you know which is which? What distinguishing criteria are used? How can you be certain "God" is a literal and not a figurative concept? -excidius

78. Consciousness is the result of a physical brain, how could God being metaphysical be said to be conscious or sentient without having a brain? - Mindless

79. Considering how Leviticus is considered old law, and that Christians do not obey it anymore, why do they always use it to defend homosexuality being an "abomination"? -Bohorquez

80. If God is omnipotent and he has a plan ... then why did he not create the universe as it will be one second after the plan has succeeded? Who or what prevented him from doing that? - Timothy Campbell (http://www.tc123.com)

81. The large majority of people who have ever existed could not have learned of the Bible or Jesus Christ. And many people afterwards have found other religions or no religion at all to be more convincing, sometimes while being very virtuous. Do all these people really deserve eternal torment because of that? -- lpetrich

82. The above arguments also apply among different sects of Christianity, many of which state that most others are not True Christianity. -- lpetrich

83. Is it reasonable for the Creator and Ruler of such a vast Universe to be preoccupied with the sexuality of a species living on a tiny little planet? -- lpetrich

84. If the Christian god was all loving and all knowing why did he let religious figures such as Mohammed or Gautama Budda be born, knowing that they would mislead people from the 'true' faith and trick the majority of the world's population into burning forever in hell (in fact, if Islam didn't start, most of the middle east would probably be Christian). It would simple to use the Holy Spirit to guide them to Jesus and spread the 'true' faith. If the Holy Spirit exits, it certainly isn't doing it's job!

85. If one is obliged to follow all the teachings of the bible then why is engaging in homosexuality or adultery any worse than "suffering a witch to live", "muzzling the ox that treadeth the corn", "reaping the corners of thy field", "marring the corners of they beard", "plowing with an oxen and an ass", "hating thy brother in thy heart" or "eating frogs, shellfish and eels" ?

86. Exactly how did the alleged worldwide flood kill off all the world's sea creatures? How does one go about drowning a fish? -- Steever

87. Why did this alleged god create humans as an animal form of life that gets sick and dies and experiences pain and has a limited mind when 'it' could have created humans as a form of pure energy or of some indestructible material or whatever, and was totally ?sinless? and had ?pure? thought? If a god was omnipotent 'it' could have easily have done this. --AI

88. If a god is omnipotent how did 'it' fail to foresee that Satan would turn against 'it'? --AI

89. What is a god supposedly made of? --AI

This list was compiled by the Infidel Guy with submissions from many members of the atheist community.

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mellestad
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Musicdude wrote:mellestad

Musicdude wrote:

mellestad wrote:

Shame on those filthy Jews for not understanding their own history, culture, language and prophecy!  It must be because God's chosen people *wanted* to deny the pure, holy light of Christ from entering their dark, ignorant souls.

After all, it isn't like they would know anything about the writings of their own ancestors, of the message of their own God.

How many Christians today misinterpret their own Holy Book? They have to right, or there wouldn't be so many different versions of Christianity today.

So why then is it so far fetched to think that Israel did the same? I mean, the OT is full of examples of them going left when God told them to go right. Of course that requires that you believe the OT accounts of Jewish history. If you don't, then why are we having this discussion? Oh, right, to prove Christianity illogical. Gotcha. Eye-wink

I'm not sure what you gain my saying this.  Christians obviously do interpret their book differently, but they usually interpret the Jesus part about the same, and the prophecies of the Jews were central doctrine, weren't they?  They weren't even as complicated...the Jews were not ranting about Golden space-cities and lighting shooting lights and death-chimeras eating everyone who didn't kiss the right ghostly buttocks.

The Jews had an unbroken line of interpretation of prophecy supposedly made by their own people.  Jesus was a Jew.  The Jews did not think Jesus met the criteria of who their king would be.  Full stop.

Obviously I think the ancient goat herders were just as mistaken as the Roman era Jewish separatists when it comes to their claims about sorcery and magic, but it blows my mind how Christians refuse to see they are a splinter faction of the Jews just like Mormons are a splinter faction of the Christians.

We are arguing about a specific point of belief.  I can argue against a theist from the basic concept of a deity existing all the way to whether or not that deity wants you to stick your wiener in a boy or a girl, that doesn't mean I have drink the Kool-aid at any particular point, or that I have to reject that which is probably accurate.  For example, I accept that Jews are real and did in fact exist.

Besides, lots of stuff in the Bible is more or less true, outside of the voodoo.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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To answer question 7, I

To answer question 7, I would say this.

 

With any question regarding God's divine nature, you have to rememer that His divine nature is not limited to any single trait.

For example He is not only merciful, or only just, or only gracious, or only powerful. He is all of the above. And one divine attribute cannot be considered independently with God any more than it could be with humans.

We humans can be merciful and at the same time be just, so can God. A judge for example may be a very merciful person, but he is also interested in carrying out justice. So he may give a light as possible sentence to a criminal whom he has compassion for, but at the same time he cannot just completely forgive the crime with no penalization at all, becuase that would be unjust.

 

I'm sure most of you have heard the courtroom analogy to what Jesus has done for us before, but bear with me for a second and see if you can possibly consider God unmerciful taking this into account.

 

If God is a judge (which the bible says that He is, in Romans 14:10 for example), and you have broken His law (which the bible also says you have, in Romans 3:23 for example) and the punishment for this is death and even a second death which is eternal hell (which the bible says in Revelation 21:Cool, then God has every right to administer your deserved punishment for breaking His divine law. You could claim ignorance, but as with earthly laws, ignorance is never a legitimate excuse. Besides the bible says that God has written His law on every person's heart in the form on a conscience. Your conscience doesn't care if you are an atheist or a an agnostic or whatever, it will tell you're wrong when you are breakins God's laws, and you can choose to ignore it, but it's still there. Sometimes if people ignore it for long enough, they get to the point they don't feel guilt for anything anymore, but that doesn't matter. Before their conscience was seared, they did feel it's conviction of their sins, and they chose to ignore it. So whether they feel guilty anymore or not, the fact stands that they are guilty before God.

So, if you can say you are a human being, you have broken God's law, and are guilty of sin, and God has every right to punish you according to His laws. He chooses therefore to offer you a way out of this punishment, and a way that is attainable to all men and women. It doesn't require money, which some people don't have. It doesn't require intellect, which some men are lacking. It doesn't require strength, which some men also lack. It requires faith alone, which levels the playing field and makes salvation equally attainable to all men/women. And so you are set in front of the judge now in a figurative but very real sense, and He is telling you that you are guilty and your punishment is Hell. That is God's justice speaking. But then God's love chimes in, and says, you absolutely deserve Hell, but I don't want that for you. I want to save you from the right penalty of your sins, and pull you out of the fire so to speak. And then God's grace says, I know a way to make that happen. Jesus Christ, and His sacrifice will stand in place of your sins, if you accept this payment. You accept by faith. So then, what say you? Who do you say Jesus Christ is? If you say He is the promised Messiah, the risen Lord of Lords, God the Son, and the spotless lamb who takes away the sins of the world, then at that moment He takes away your sins. If you say He is anything other than that, you reject His sacrifice, and thus are left to suffer the penalty of your own sins.

 

How is that not merciful?

God, who owes you nothing, offers you everything for nothing as a free gift, and all you have to do is believe it and it's yours.

No human being deserves to be saved from their sins, not even Mother Thereasa, or any other do-gooder you can list.

But God doesn't want to give us what we deserve, because He loves us, and is merciful. Mercy = the act of God's grace. Mercy = Jesus Christ on a cross instead of humanity. Jesus Christ beaten senselessly, instead of us.

Jesus broken to make us whole. His blood shed to give us life. If that isn't the act of a Merciful God, I don't know what is.

 

Why do we continue to blame God for our own selfish choices, and the consequences that follow? Whenever God is the one trying to rescue us from those consequences, that our own selfishness has subjected us to.

 

 

Is that too lengthy a response?

 

Ok, here it is in a sentence.

 

Because God is not only merciful. To say that He is, lowers Him to a position that is even beneath humanity, for we are not one-dimensional either.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


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mellestad wrote:Musicdude

mellestad wrote:

Musicdude wrote:

mellestad wrote:

Shame on those filthy Jews for not understanding their own history, culture, language and prophecy!  It must be because God's chosen people *wanted* to deny the pure, holy light of Christ from entering their dark, ignorant souls.

After all, it isn't like they would know anything about the writings of their own ancestors, of the message of their own God.

How many Christians today misinterpret their own Holy Book? They have to right, or there wouldn't be so many different versions of Christianity today.

So why then is it so far fetched to think that Israel did the same? I mean, the OT is full of examples of them going left when God told them to go right. Of course that requires that you believe the OT accounts of Jewish history. If you don't, then why are we having this discussion? Oh, right, to prove Christianity illogical. Gotcha. Eye-wink

I'm not sure what you gain my saying this.  Christians obviously do interpret their book differently, but they usually interpret the Jesus part about the same, and the prophecies of the Jews were central doctrine, weren't they?  They weren't even as complicated...the Jews were not ranting about Golden space-cities and lighting shooting lights and death-chimeras eating everyone who didn't kiss the right ghostly buttocks.

Eschatology is not the only doctrine which modern Christians are disagreed upon. There are many central themes of the new testament that Christians (including myself) debate often, such as predestination which pretty much removes man's free-will as part of the process of salvation. That is not a small detail, and there are not a small amount of Christians who are disagreed on it. All Calvinists believe in predestination, and all Arminians do not. Then there's the ones in between, who have other explanations of those relative scriptures. I'm pretty sure if Moses or Joshua had met Jesus, they would have known who He was right away. But how many generations of false teaching took place between Moses' death and Jesus' birth? The Jews were not the first or the last group of people who preferred to make God into their own image, and ignore what He has clearly said to them about Himself.

Quote:
The Jews had an unbroken line of interpretation of prophecy supposedly made by their own people.  Jesus was a Jew.  The Jews did not think Jesus met the criteria of who their king would be.  Full stop.

Obviously I think the ancient goat herders were just as mistaken as the Roman era Jewish separatists when it comes to their claims about sorcery and magic, but it blows my mind how Christians refuse to see they are a splinter faction of the Jews just like Mormons are a splinter faction of the Christians.

We are arguing about a specific point of belief.  I can argue against a theist from the basic concept of a deity existing all the way to whether or not that deity wants you to stick your wiener in a boy or a girl, that doesn't mean I have drink the Kool-aid at any particular point, or that I have to reject that which is probably accurate.  For example, I accept that Jews are real and did in fact exist.

Besides, lots of stuff in the Bible is more or less true, outside of the voodoo.

Were you there to witness the "voodoo?" Then how can you say it didn't happen?

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


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Musicdude wrote:mellestad

Musicdude wrote:

mellestad wrote:

Musicdude wrote:

mellestad wrote:

Shame on those filthy Jews for not understanding their own history, culture, language and prophecy!  It must be because God's chosen people *wanted* to deny the pure, holy light of Christ from entering their dark, ignorant souls.

After all, it isn't like they would know anything about the writings of their own ancestors, of the message of their own God.

How many Christians today misinterpret their own Holy Book? They have to right, or there wouldn't be so many different versions of Christianity today.

So why then is it so far fetched to think that Israel did the same? I mean, the OT is full of examples of them going left when God told them to go right. Of course that requires that you believe the OT accounts of Jewish history. If you don't, then why are we having this discussion? Oh, right, to prove Christianity illogical. Gotcha. Eye-wink

I'm not sure what you gain my saying this.  Christians obviously do interpret their book differently, but they usually interpret the Jesus part about the same, and the prophecies of the Jews were central doctrine, weren't they?  They weren't even as complicated...the Jews were not ranting about Golden space-cities and lighting shooting lights and death-chimeras eating everyone who didn't kiss the right ghostly buttocks.

Eschatology is not the only doctrine which modern Christians are disagreed upon. There are many central themes of the new testament that Christians (including myself) debate often, such as predestination which pretty much removes man's free-will as part of the process of salvation. That is not a small detail, and there are not a small amount of Christians who are disagreed on it. All Calvinists believe in predestination, and all Arminians do not. Then there's the ones in between, who have other explanations of those relative scriptures. I'm pretty sure if Moses or Joshua had met Jesus, they would have known who He was right away. But how many generations of false teaching took place between Moses' death and Jesus' birth? The Jews were not the first or the last group of people who preferred to make God into their own image, and ignore what He has clearly said to them about Himself.

Quote:
The Jews had an unbroken line of interpretation of prophecy supposedly made by their own people.  Jesus was a Jew.  The Jews did not think Jesus met the criteria of who their king would be.  Full stop.

Obviously I think the ancient goat herders were just as mistaken as the Roman era Jewish separatists when it comes to their claims about sorcery and magic, but it blows my mind how Christians refuse to see they are a splinter faction of the Jews just like Mormons are a splinter faction of the Christians.

We are arguing about a specific point of belief.  I can argue against a theist from the basic concept of a deity existing all the way to whether or not that deity wants you to stick your wiener in a boy or a girl, that doesn't mean I have drink the Kool-aid at any particular point, or that I have to reject that which is probably accurate.  For example, I accept that Jews are real and did in fact exist.

Besides, lots of stuff in the Bible is more or less true, outside of the voodoo.

Were you there to witness the "voodoo?" Then how can you say it didn't happen?

The doctrinal points you bring up are far more cerebral than a specific Jewish prophecy.  Either the messiah would do something or he wouldn't.

The idea that they would have recognized him is pure presumption on your part.  They might have just as easily killed him, yes?  They were not charitable towards non-believers.  To assume they would know him you assume he could do the things he said he could and you also assume that they would have a different opinion than their descendants.  There is no evidence of this, just wishful thinking on your part.

As for your second point, I feel fairly safe in operating under the assumption that Harry Potter magic is not real unless evidence shows it is true.  My default position on unlikely claims is typically negative.  Unless you are literally scared of witches and black cats, I assume yours is as well in the non-religious portions of your life.

Religion has a very special ability to make a person believe ridiculous claims for no reason.  Let's try an experiment.

 

You find a tablet made of Gold in your basement, it claims that there was a man alive in 1870 who could vaporize a man just by wishing it.  It tells a story about how this man vaporized a man in Africa just to watch him die.  The tablet says hundreds of people saw this, and they all thought it was pretty wild.

Upon further research you find out that another man, whom had never met the original man, started a church to worship him in 1930 and that organization is still around.  There is no physical evidence the original man ever existed, much less vaporized anyone, but there are other documents from non-eye witnesses who claim third party knowledge of him and/or his vaporization event.  They claim to have spoken to witnesses who did see the event.  There are no sources verifying these writers identities, just signatures that cannot be linked with confirmed identities.  All the documents were written after the original man was dead.

Do you believe the tablet?  Enough to pledge your life to the original man?  Why or why not?  What would convince you that the story is true? 

Technically, it is probably more plausible that this story is real than a story about a Jewish necromancer and has just as much evidence.

There are current religious leaders who claim supernatural powers.  They have eye witnesses willing to confirm their abilities and large followings of tens of thousands.  Why don't you believe them?

etc. etc. etc.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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mellestad wrote:The

mellestad wrote:

The doctrinal points you bring up are far more cerebral than a specific Jewish prophecy.  Either the messiah would do something or he wouldn't.

The idea that they would have recognized him is pure presumption on your part.  They might have just as easily killed him, yes?  They were not charitable towards non-believers.  To assume they would know him you assume he could do the things he said he could and you also assume that they would have a different opinion than their descendants.  There is no evidence of this, just wishful thinking on your part.

What about this?

 

 

John 5:43-47 (New International Version)

43I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God[a]?

 45"But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?"

 

Quote:
As for your second point, I feel fairly safe in operating under the assumption that Harry Potter magic is not real unless evidence shows it is true.  My default position on unlikely claims is typically negative.  Unless you are literally scared of witches and black cats, I assume yours is as well in the non-religious portions of your life.

I'm not scared of anything, but I do believe there is pseudo-magic that is very real. It gets it's power from demons. It's really no more magic than what Jesus did. To Jesus, making water into wine is not a magic trick. It's just using His natural abilities to accomplish His purposes. It's only "magic" to us, becuase we don't have those abilities. Now demons don't have the same abilities as God, but they have more than us, so things they do can be viewed as "magic" as well, and often is.

Quote:
Religion has a very special ability to make a person believe ridiculous claims for no reason.  Let's try an experiment.

 

You find a tablet made of Gold in your basement, it claims that there was a man alive in 1870 who could vaporize a man just by wishing it.  It tells a story about how this man vaporized a man in Africa just to watch him die.  The tablet says hundreds of people saw this, and they all thought it was pretty wild.

Upon further research you find out that another man, whom had never met the original man, started a church to worship him in 1930 and that organization is still around.  There is no physical evidence the original man ever existed, much less vaporized anyone, but there are other documents from non-eye witnesses who claim third party knowledge of him and/or his vaporization event.  They claim to have spoken to witnesses who did see the event.  There are no sources verifying these writers identities, just signatures that cannot be linked with confirmed identities.  All the documents were written after the original man was dead.

Do you believe the tablet?  Enough to pledge your life to the original man?  Why or why not?  What would convince you that the story is true? 

Technically, it is probably more plausible that this story is real than a story about a Jewish necromancer and has just as much evidence.

There are current religious leaders who claim supernatural powers.  They have eye witnesses willing to confirm their abilities and large followings of tens of thousands.  Why don't you believe them?

etc. etc. etc.

 

No, there isn't enough evidence.

 

The bible has thousands of copies from all over the world, that date back within a few generations of Christ's life/death. They were handwritten and only vary less than 1 percent accross the board.

That's a little different. But hey, if the human-zapper had as much evidence as the bible does, I'd have a hard time not believing it really happened. But the human-zapper never claimed to be God, so there's no reason to pledge my life to him.

 

 

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


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Musicdude wrote:mellestad

Musicdude wrote:

mellestad wrote:

The doctrinal points you bring up are far more cerebral than a specific Jewish prophecy.  Either the messiah would do something or he wouldn't.

The idea that they would have recognized him is pure presumption on your part.  They might have just as easily killed him, yes?  They were not charitable towards non-believers.  To assume they would know him you assume he could do the things he said he could and you also assume that they would have a different opinion than their descendants.  There is no evidence of this, just wishful thinking on your part.

What about this?

 

 

John 5:43-47 (New International Version)

43I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God[a]?

 45"But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?"

 

Quote:
As for your second point, I feel fairly safe in operating under the assumption that Harry Potter magic is not real unless evidence shows it is true.  My default position on unlikely claims is typically negative.  Unless you are literally scared of witches and black cats, I assume yours is as well in the non-religious portions of your life.

I'm not scared of anything, but I do believe there is pseudo-magic that is very real. It gets it's power from demons. It's really no more magic than what Jesus did. To Jesus, making water into wine is not a magic trick. It's just using His natural abilities to accomplish His purposes. It's only "magic" to us, becuase we don't have those abilities. Now demons don't have the same abilities as God, but they have more than us, so things they do can be viewed as "magic" as well, and often is.

Quote:
Religion has a very special ability to make a person believe ridiculous claims for no reason.  Let's try an experiment.

 

You find a tablet made of Gold in your basement, it claims that there was a man alive in 1870 who could vaporize a man just by wishing it.  It tells a story about how this man vaporized a man in Africa just to watch him die.  The tablet says hundreds of people saw this, and they all thought it was pretty wild.

Upon further research you find out that another man, whom had never met the original man, started a church to worship him in 1930 and that organization is still around.  There is no physical evidence the original man ever existed, much less vaporized anyone, but there are other documents from non-eye witnesses who claim third party knowledge of him and/or his vaporization event.  They claim to have spoken to witnesses who did see the event.  There are no sources verifying these writers identities, just signatures that cannot be linked with confirmed identities.  All the documents were written after the original man was dead.

Do you believe the tablet?  Enough to pledge your life to the original man?  Why or why not?  What would convince you that the story is true? 

Technically, it is probably more plausible that this story is real than a story about a Jewish necromancer and has just as much evidence.

There are current religious leaders who claim supernatural powers.  They have eye witnesses willing to confirm their abilities and large followings of tens of thousands.  Why don't you believe them?

etc. etc. etc.

 

No, there isn't enough evidence.

 

The bible has thousands of copies from all over the world, that date back within a few generations of Christ's life/death. They were handwritten and only vary less than 1 percent accross the board.

That's a little different. But hey, if the human-zapper had as much evidence as the bible does, I'd have a hard time not believing it really happened. But the human-zapper never claimed to be God, so there's no reason to pledge my life to him.

 

1. So Jesus said Moses would believe in him?  That is proof?  It is sort of in Jesus' interest to say that.  Your standards of proof are fairly low.  I think Bill Gates will give me all of his money.  Am I right?

2. Harry Potter has innate magical abilities.  It only looks like magic to us because we are muggles.  Do you at least see my point here?

3. So you would believe in Zap man if A) There were more copies of what his followers wrote in circulation B) His story was from ancient Greece instead of 1870. C) He claimed to be a god.  Some of your points are not valid.  A) Zap man had people writing about him sooner than Jesus did. B) Those writings were all identical (I did not specify this, but I did not say there were errors > 1%)

I find it strange that your requirements to believe in a god claim are simply age and the number of books in circulation.

I think you have to become a Muslim now, don't you?

 

For me, if someone wants to convince me they can do magic (or have natural abilities that we call magic for simplicity) I would need, at a minimum, multiple trustworthy eye-witness corroborations.

Even then I would not simply accept it...like I said, there are literally people who claim supernatural deeds today (that I am positive you would say are lies) who have multiple first hand witnesses.

I am always surprised that people in the modern world are so willing to believe in magic when it never actually happens.  Of course the sad part is they only believe the magic that they were taught to believe as children.  Naturally, they mock the magic that other people were taught to believe as children, and those children mock their magic.  It is like a bunch of blind people making fun of each other for being blind.  They all claim they can see but no-one can ever prove it.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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mellestad wrote:Musicdude

mellestad wrote:

Musicdude wrote:

mellestad wrote:

The doctrinal points you bring up are far more cerebral than a specific Jewish prophecy.  Either the messiah would do something or he wouldn't.

The idea that they would have recognized him is pure presumption on your part.  They might have just as easily killed him, yes?  They were not charitable towards non-believers.  To assume they would know him you assume he could do the things he said he could and you also assume that they would have a different opinion than their descendants.  There is no evidence of this, just wishful thinking on your part.

What about this?

 

 

John 5:43-47 (New International Version)

43I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God[a]?

 45"But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?"

 

Quote:
As for your second point, I feel fairly safe in operating under the assumption that Harry Potter magic is not real unless evidence shows it is true.  My default position on unlikely claims is typically negative.  Unless you are literally scared of witches and black cats, I assume yours is as well in the non-religious portions of your life.

I'm not scared of anything, but I do believe there is pseudo-magic that is very real. It gets it's power from demons. It's really no more magic than what Jesus did. To Jesus, making water into wine is not a magic trick. It's just using His natural abilities to accomplish His purposes. It's only "magic" to us, becuase we don't have those abilities. Now demons don't have the same abilities as God, but they have more than us, so things they do can be viewed as "magic" as well, and often is.

Quote:
Religion has a very special ability to make a person believe ridiculous claims for no reason.  Let's try an experiment.

 

You find a tablet made of Gold in your basement, it claims that there was a man alive in 1870 who could vaporize a man just by wishing it.  It tells a story about how this man vaporized a man in Africa just to watch him die.  The tablet says hundreds of people saw this, and they all thought it was pretty wild.

Upon further research you find out that another man, whom had never met the original man, started a church to worship him in 1930 and that organization is still around.  There is no physical evidence the original man ever existed, much less vaporized anyone, but there are other documents from non-eye witnesses who claim third party knowledge of him and/or his vaporization event.  They claim to have spoken to witnesses who did see the event.  There are no sources verifying these writers identities, just signatures that cannot be linked with confirmed identities.  All the documents were written after the original man was dead.

Do you believe the tablet?  Enough to pledge your life to the original man?  Why or why not?  What would convince you that the story is true? 

Technically, it is probably more plausible that this story is real than a story about a Jewish necromancer and has just as much evidence.

There are current religious leaders who claim supernatural powers.  They have eye witnesses willing to confirm their abilities and large followings of tens of thousands.  Why don't you believe them?

etc. etc. etc.

 

No, there isn't enough evidence.

 

The bible has thousands of copies from all over the world, that date back within a few generations of Christ's life/death. They were handwritten and only vary less than 1 percent accross the board.

That's a little different. But hey, if the human-zapper had as much evidence as the bible does, I'd have a hard time not believing it really happened. But the human-zapper never claimed to be God, so there's no reason to pledge my life to him.

 

1. So Jesus said Moses would believe in him?  That is proof?  It is sort of in Jesus' interest to say that.  Your standards of proof are fairly low.  I think Bill Gates will give me all of his money.  Am I right?

Read Moses' writings, and you'll see that Jesus was right. It's easier for us to see, because we've had 2000 years to analyze all the data, and it was sort of sprung on the Jews.

Quote:
2. Harry Potter has innate magical abilities.  It only looks like magic to us because we are muggles.  Do you at least see my point here?

I see your point. But Harry Potter books never claimed to be non-fiction. As far as modern examples of witchcraft that do claim to be non-fictional, I have already explained how I view them.

Quote:
3. So you would believe in Zap man if A) There were more copies of what his followers wrote in circulation B) His story was from ancient Greece instead of 1870. C) He claimed to be a god.  Some of your points are not valid.  A) Zap man had people writing about him sooner than Jesus did. B) Those writings were all identical (I did not specify this, but I did not say there were errors > 1%)

I find it strange that your requirements to believe in a god claim are simply age and the number of books in circulation.

That is not my requirements for belief. But it's certainly enough evidence to give it a healthy consideration. God has proven Himself to me often in my life, post-salvation to reinforce the small amount of faith I had in the beginning. I am convinced that once you do not require proof, that is when He gives you more than you ever needed. God has answered prayers in my life that were far too unlikely to be attributed to coincidence. And even those prayers, if they happened once, there would be room for skepticism, but it's been way more often than once.

 

Quote:
I think you have to become a Muslim now, don't you?

I get sick on airplances, so it'd never work out.  Eye-wink

 

Quote:
For me, if someone wants to convince me they can do magic (or have natural abilities that we call magic for simplicity) I would need, at a minimum, multiple trustworthy eye-witness corroborations.

Jesus has that.

 

Quote:
Even then I would not simply accept it...like I said, there are literally people who claim supernatural deeds today (that I am positive you would say are lies) who have multiple first hand witnesses.

I don't simply accept it for that reason. I have personal proof as I explained.

 

Quote:
I am always surprised that people in the modern world are so willing to believe in magic when it never actually happens.  Of course the sad part is they only believe the magic that they were taught to believe as children.  Naturally, they mock the magic that other people were taught to believe as children, and those children mock their magic.  It is like a bunch of blind people making fun of each other for being blind.  They all claim they can see but no-one can ever prove it.

You know as far as healing miracles go, I would lying to you if I didn't say it disheartens me a little that as long as I've been saved (since childhood, and I'm 31 now) I've never seen one first-hand.

It doesn't make me doubt that they happened according to what the bible says, but it makes me doubt that they still do. I pray God will let me witness one first-hand at some point, but nothing so far.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


mellestad
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Musicdude wrote:mellestad

Musicdude wrote:

mellestad wrote:

Musicdude wrote:

mellestad wrote:

The doctrinal points you bring up are far more cerebral than a specific Jewish prophecy.  Either the messiah would do something or he wouldn't.

The idea that they would have recognized him is pure presumption on your part.  They might have just as easily killed him, yes?  They were not charitable towards non-believers.  To assume they would know him you assume he could do the things he said he could and you also assume that they would have a different opinion than their descendants.  There is no evidence of this, just wishful thinking on your part.

What about this?

 

 

John 5:43-47 (New International Version)

43I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God[a]?

 45"But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?"

 

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As for your second point, I feel fairly safe in operating under the assumption that Harry Potter magic is not real unless evidence shows it is true.  My default position on unlikely claims is typically negative.  Unless you are literally scared of witches and black cats, I assume yours is as well in the non-religious portions of your life.

I'm not scared of anything, but I do believe there is pseudo-magic that is very real. It gets it's power from demons. It's really no more magic than what Jesus did. To Jesus, making water into wine is not a magic trick. It's just using His natural abilities to accomplish His purposes. It's only "magic" to us, becuase we don't have those abilities. Now demons don't have the same abilities as God, but they have more than us, so things they do can be viewed as "magic" as well, and often is.

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Religion has a very special ability to make a person believe ridiculous claims for no reason.  Let's try an experiment.

 

You find a tablet made of Gold in your basement, it claims that there was a man alive in 1870 who could vaporize a man just by wishing it.  It tells a story about how this man vaporized a man in Africa just to watch him die.  The tablet says hundreds of people saw this, and they all thought it was pretty wild.

Upon further research you find out that another man, whom had never met the original man, started a church to worship him in 1930 and that organization is still around.  There is no physical evidence the original man ever existed, much less vaporized anyone, but there are other documents from non-eye witnesses who claim third party knowledge of him and/or his vaporization event.  They claim to have spoken to witnesses who did see the event.  There are no sources verifying these writers identities, just signatures that cannot be linked with confirmed identities.  All the documents were written after the original man was dead.

Do you believe the tablet?  Enough to pledge your life to the original man?  Why or why not?  What would convince you that the story is true? 

Technically, it is probably more plausible that this story is real than a story about a Jewish necromancer and has just as much evidence.

There are current religious leaders who claim supernatural powers.  They have eye witnesses willing to confirm their abilities and large followings of tens of thousands.  Why don't you believe them?

etc. etc. etc.

 

No, there isn't enough evidence.

 

The bible has thousands of copies from all over the world, that date back within a few generations of Christ's life/death. They were handwritten and only vary less than 1 percent accross the board.

That's a little different. But hey, if the human-zapper had as much evidence as the bible does, I'd have a hard time not believing it really happened. But the human-zapper never claimed to be God, so there's no reason to pledge my life to him.

 

1. So Jesus said Moses would believe in him?  That is proof?  It is sort of in Jesus' interest to say that.  Your standards of proof are fairly low.  I think Bill Gates will give me all of his money.  Am I right?

Read Moses' writings, and you'll see that Jesus was right. It's easier for us to see, because we've had 2000 years to analyze all the data, and it was sort of sprung on the Jews.

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2. Harry Potter has innate magical abilities.  It only looks like magic to us because we are muggles.  Do you at least see my point here?

I see your point. But Harry Potter books never claimed to be non-fiction. As far as modern examples of witchcraft that do claim to be non-fictional, I have already explained how I view them.

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3. So you would believe in Zap man if A) There were more copies of what his followers wrote in circulation B) His story was from ancient Greece instead of 1870. C) He claimed to be a god.  Some of your points are not valid.  A) Zap man had people writing about him sooner than Jesus did. B) Those writings were all identical (I did not specify this, but I did not say there were errors > 1%)

I find it strange that your requirements to believe in a god claim are simply age and the number of books in circulation.

That is not my requirements for belief. But it's certainly enough evidence to give it a healthy consideration. God has proven Himself to me often in my life, post-salvation to reinforce the small amount of faith I had in the beginning. I am convinced that once you do not require proof, that is when He gives you more than you ever needed. God has answered prayers in my life that were far too unlikely to be attributed to coincidence. And even those prayers, if they happened once, there would be room for skepticism, but it's been way more often than once.

 

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I think you have to become a Muslim now, don't you?

I get sick on airplances, so it'd never work out.  Eye-wink

 

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For me, if someone wants to convince me they can do magic (or have natural abilities that we call magic for simplicity) I would need, at a minimum, multiple trustworthy eye-witness corroborations.

Jesus has that.

 

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Even then I would not simply accept it...like I said, there are literally people who claim supernatural deeds today (that I am positive you would say are lies) who have multiple first hand witnesses.

I don't simply accept it for that reason. I have personal proof as I explained.

 

Quote:
I am always surprised that people in the modern world are so willing to believe in magic when it never actually happens.  Of course the sad part is they only believe the magic that they were taught to believe as children.  Naturally, they mock the magic that other people were taught to believe as children, and those children mock their magic.  It is like a bunch of blind people making fun of each other for being blind.  They all claim they can see but no-one can ever prove it.

You know as far as healing miracles go, I would lying to you if I didn't say it disheartens me a little that as long as I've been saved (since childhood, and I'm 31 now) I've never seen one first-hand.

It doesn't make me doubt that they happened according to what the bible says, but it makes me doubt that they still do. I pray God will let me witness one first-hand at some point, but nothing so far.

You believe in magic, and think witches are real and dangerous.  You believe that we know more about 2,000 year old Jewish belief than 2,000 year old Jews did.  You think the Jesus story has multiple eye witness accounts even though we do not know (all we have is third party accounts from after his death, that report first hand accounts), you believe in Magic because you have participated in ritual sorcery and had wishes come true.

If healing miracles really happened, sometime in the last 500 years God would have healed an amputee.  Maybe missing a limb is a sin?

And it is funny how God seems to become less active when cell phone cameras are around.

I don't have much to say.  If you are willing to believe that brand of theism without offering up a rational reason then I wish you luck and happiness in life.  I'm not sure why you are here on this site though, because debating the rationality of religion is sort of what we do.

 

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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mellestad wrote:You believe

mellestad wrote:

You believe in magic, and think witches are real and dangerous.

No, I didn't say that. I said I believe in real supernatural powers which are often attributed to "magic." Magic it'self is a sham.

 

Quote:
You believe that we know more about 2,000 year old Jewish belief than 2,000 year old Jews did.

I believe in every generation there are those who get it and those who don't. There were certainly Jews 2000 years ago that knew the word of God better than anyone alive today, Paul for example.

 

Quote:
You think the Jesus story has multiple eye witness accounts even though we do not know (all we have is third party accounts from after his death, that report first hand accounts),

There is no reason from a historical perspective to discount the bible as a credible source, IMO. 

 

Quote:
you believe in Magic because you have participated in ritual sorcery and had wishes come true.

If you call saying a silent prayer in my head, which consisted of just asking God to show me which way to go (as I would ask a friend), a ritual sorcery, then ok.

 

Quote:
If healing miracles really happened, sometime in the last 500 years God would have healed an amputee.  Maybe missing a limb is a sin?

Why? How is that a logical argument at all. God didn't heal everyone, that wasn't His purpose. If you're saying that healing an amputee would've been a greater miracle than healing a dead person, I don't follow your logic. Or greater than healing a man with leperacy instantaneously. Or healing a man with a deformed hand. Or healing a man who was born blind. Or healing a man who couldn't walk. Why is healing an amputee any more impressive than those in your honest opinion?

Quote:
And it is funny how God seems to become less active when cell phone cameras are around.

He is not out to prove His existence by the use of miracles.

Jesus wrote:
"Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Quote:
I don't have much to say.  If you are willing to believe that brand of theism without offering up a rational reason then I wish you luck and happiness in life.  I'm not sure why you are here on this site though, because debating the rationality of religion is sort of what we do.

I just want to see how people who don't believe justify it. And I am seeing a real animosity toward religion on these boards. Not just disbelief. There is a reason for that.

If someone just comes up and says hey man, the world is made out of Jello, and if you want to go to heaving when you die, you must eat as much jello as possible. You would at the most maybe chuckle a little and move one. But you certainly wouldn't be angry with the guy, not matter how much he believed what he just told you. There's no reason to be angry with him. Stupidity is not a cause for anger. At least not in my experience.

Rebellion is a good cause though.

 

 edit: "Heaving" was supposed to be Heaven. I mistyped, but heaving is actually more appropriate, considering the large quantities of jello consumed. lol

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


mellestad
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Musicdude wrote:mellestad

Musicdude wrote:

mellestad wrote:

You believe in magic, and think witches are real and dangerous.

1. No, I didn't say that. I said I believe in real supernatural powers which are often attributed to "magic." Magic it'self is a sham.

 

Quote:
You believe that we know more about 2,000 year old Jewish belief than 2,000 year old Jews did.

2. I believe in every generation there are those who get it and those who don't. There were certainly Jews 2000 years ago that knew the word of God better than anyone alive today, Paul for example.

 

Quote:
You think the Jesus story has multiple eye witness accounts even though we do not know (all we have is third party accounts from after his death, that report first hand accounts),

3. There is no reason from a historical perspective to discount the bible as a credible source, IMO. 

 

Quote:
you believe in Magic because you have participated in ritual sorcery and had wishes come true.

4. If you call saying a silent prayer in my head, which consisted of just asking God to show me which way to go (as I would ask a friend), a ritual sorcery, then ok.

 

Quote:
If healing miracles really happened, sometime in the last 500 years God would have healed an amputee.  Maybe missing a limb is a sin?

5. Why? How is that a logical argument at all. God didn't heal everyone, that wasn't His purpose. If you're saying that healing an amputee would've been a greater miracle than healing a dead person, I don't follow your logic. Or greater than healing a man with leperacy instantaneously. Or healing a man with a deformed hand. Or healing a man who was born blind. Or healing a man who couldn't walk. Why is healing an amputee any more impressive than those in your honest opinion?

Quote:
And it is funny how God seems to become less active when cell phone cameras are around.

6. He is not out to prove His existence by the use of miracles.

Jesus wrote:
"Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Quote:
I don't have much to say.  If you are willing to believe that brand of theism without offering up a rational reason then I wish you luck and happiness in life.  I'm not sure why you are here on this site though, because debating the rationality of religion is sort of what we do.

7. I just want to see how people who don't believe justify it. And I am seeing a real animosity toward religion on these boards. Not just disbelief. There is a reason for that.

If someone just comes up and says hey man, the world is made out of Jello, and if you want to go to heaving when you die, you must eat as much jello as possible. You would at the most maybe chuckle a little and move one. But you certainly wouldn't be angry with the guy, not matter how much he believed what he just told you. There's no reason to be angry with him. Stupidity is not a cause for anger. At least not in my experience.

Rebellion is a good cause though.

 

 

1. Please enlighten me as to what the difference is between magic and supernatural powers.  In both, the central point is doing something that is not outside the realm of possibility.

2. And the people who 'get it' happen to be people who agree with you.

3. At central points, it argues that fantastic things happened.  I would not discard the Bible as a historical document, but I feel fairly safe in discounting the parts that claim magic.  We disclaim the supernatural parts of every other document from antiquity.  Why is the Bible special?  It has no more evidence than the others.

4. I do.  You don't because you were taught it is normal, but think about what you are actually doing...you are asking an invisible being to warp reality on your behalf.  If someone calls on mighty Nurgle to slay someone with a pox using certain ritual words how is it different?  If your parents had raised you as Nurgle worshipers, we might be having that discussion right now and your arguments would be the same.

5. It is not a 'greater' miracle, but it is one that cannot be faked well, and it cannot happen naturally.  People can recover from cancer.  People can have spine injuries heal.  People can fake being crippled/sick....they do it all the time.  That is why I would be impressed.  It would actually be far easier (I imagine) than raising a corpse.  Now, if you can show someone legitimately dead for three days and necro them, I'll be impressed too.  But since Christians today typically only claim miraculous disease/injury recovery then a missing limb will do nicely.  Plenty of people give God credit for miracles that can happen naturally, but it is always ambiguous.

Easy to prove too.  Other things would work though...a child born without a brain growing up to be a 'normal' human would be a neat trick.  Or heck, healing just about any moderate to severe birth defect.  Again though, God tends to bow out of those.  Strange how that works isn't it?

6. He never seemed shy about it before we knew better than to swallow what itinerant street preachers told us.

7. Not animosity towards you, frustration towards the same arguments we see over and over.  I actually started out on this board very patient but eventually I think I burned out a little bit.  I expected 'rational debate' and it never turned up.  If there were billions of Jello believers and they all wanted to tell you about Jello, and none of them were willing to do anything but argue about how Jello makes them feel regardless of reality...yea, frustrated.

Please don't try to assign my motives to rebellion, you really don't know me well enough to do so.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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mellestad wrote:1. Please

mellestad wrote:

1. Please enlighten me as to what the difference is between magic and supernatural powers.  In both, the central point is doing something that is not outside the realm of possibility.

By your definitions, probably there is no difference. But just as a simple example, if someone has the power to do something that is impossible for you to do yourself, you could say he's a magician, or you could just say he has abilities that you don't understand. Even the term "supernatural" assumes that we understand all the workings of nature, and know for certain that this thing defies all of them. That's a big assumption.

 

Quote:
2. And the people who 'get it' happen to be people who agree with you.

Well, I'd be pretty stupid to be believe in something I don't think is the truth, wouldn't I?  Smiling

The people who get it, were the people who agreed with Jesus. I am just one of millions.

 

Quote:
3. At central points, it argues that fantastic things happened.  I would not discard the Bible as a historical document, but I feel fairly safe in discounting the parts that claim magic.  We disclaim the supernatural parts of every other document from antiquity.  Why is the Bible special?  It has no more evidence than the others.

Because it's the truth. You'll see, sooner or later. It predicts some pretty spectacular events, and if it's true, you will have no doubt when those are fulfilled.

Then you will know why the bible is special above the rest. Other than that, I can't give any proof why the bible is better than the rest, except for personal experiences which don't carry much weight in an arugment.

 

Quote:
4. I do.  You don't because you were taught it is normal, but think about what you are actually doing...you are asking an invisible being to warp reality on your behalf.  If someone calls on mighty Nurgle to slay someone with a pox using certain ritual words how is it different?  If your parents had raised you as Nurgle worshipers, we might be having that discussion right now and your arguments would be the same.

But if Nurgle really did slay said person with pox, whether you like the idea of Nurgle being real or not, wouldn't you have to at least be open to the possibility that he is? (I don't know why this line is in a large font. I'm not yelling at you, I promise.)

You can have distaste for the supernatural all day long, but that doesn't make it unreal.

 

Quote:
5. It is not a 'greater' miracle, but it is one that cannot be faked well, and it cannot happen naturally.

And I suppose leperacy instantly leaving someone can be faked? How? 

What about a withered hand suddenly being healed? Have you ever seen someone with a withered hand (not sure what the medical term for that is)? I have, and it's not pretty. If it were healed, you would know it, and there's no way to fake that, especially since some of these people have had these illnesses even before Jesus was born, so why would they have been faking the illness?

Quote:
People can recover from cancer.  People can have spine injuries heal.  People can fake being crippled/sick....they do it all the time.

Cancer and spinal injuries don't just disappear in an  instant. And people don't fake illnesses and disabilities their entire lives, so that some guy they've never heard of can come fake-heal them. That doesn't even make sense.

 

Quote:
That is why I would be impressed.  It would actually be far easier (I imagine) than raising a corpse.

I would be impressed too. But no more than with any of the other miracles Jesus is documented to have done. 

 

Quote:
Now, if you can show someone legitimately dead for three days and necro them, I'll be impressed too.  But since Christians today typically only claim miraculous disease/injury recovery then a missing limb will do nicely.  Plenty of people give God credit for miracles that can happen naturally, but it is always ambiguous.

Just because some is possible without God doesn't mean it is probable without God.

Lots of people go in for heart-bypass surgery and don't survive. So we can't exactly give doctors all the credit either. Many times they lose patients for reasons beyond their abilities. Sometimes, the surgery goes perfectly, and the person still dies. So I definitely believe that God can heal people without the use of medicine, but He can heal people with the use of medicine as well. He can do whatever He wants. He's God. Miracles today seem to be more for the recipients than for the masses. Why? I don't know. But Jesus has already done enough miracles when He was on earth to firmly establish who He really was, for anyone who would believe. Many rejected Him even in the face of said miracles, while many others believed and called Him Lord. The same would happen if He came back today and did the same or even more impressive miracles. But now isn't the time for that. Now is the time for the next phase of His plan. That phase is over. I'm sorry you missed it. I'm sorry I missed it too. But things will get interesting again, according to the prophecies in the bible. The supernatural side of God will be revealed again to the earth. So just be patient for a while.

 

Quote:
Easy to prove too.  Other things would work though...a child born without a brain growing up to be a 'normal' human would be a neat trick.  Or heck, healing just about any moderate to severe birth defect.  Again though, God tends to bow out of those.  Strange how that works isn't it?

Not strange at all. I've already explained why.

Quote:
6. He never seemed shy about it before we knew better than to swallow what itinerant street preachers told us.

Again see the above.

Quote:
7. Not animosity towards you, frustration towards the same arguments we see over and over.  I actually started out on this board very patient but eventually I think I burned out a little bit.  I expected 'rational debate' and it never turned up.  If there were billions of Jello believers and they all wanted to tell you about Jello, and none of them were willing to do anything but argue about how Jello makes them feel regardless of reality...yea, frustrated.

Then what are you hoping to do by debating Theists about Theism? What is the goal? Are you trying to save them from wasting their lives? They don't believe they are wasting their lives. And if you don't believe your life is wasted, then in all actuality, it isn't wasted, becuase that is something that has everything to do with personal perspective anyway.

I've debated Christians about doctrinal principles in the bible for years, and even that often ends in frustration. I've debated many atheists as well, mostly on music oriented forums. I am amazed how many musicians are atheists. Good people, who have good morals and values that they got from their parents or from society. Good musicians too. Would give you the shirt off their back if you needed it. But knowing what I know about God, I have to at least try and tell them about the gospel, because if I didn't I would be at best a luke-warm believer (or fence-rider), and at worst an uncaring, compassionless scumbag.

 

Quote:
Please don't try to assign my motives to rebellion, you really don't know me well enough to do so.

According to what the bible says, you have rebelled against God. It's nothing personal. Every unbeliever has done the same. So have I for that matter, I just repented of it.

 

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


mellestad
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Musicdude wrote:mellestad

Musicdude wrote:

mellestad wrote:

1. Please enlighten me as to what the difference is between magic and supernatural powers.  In both, the central point is doing something that is not outside the realm of possibility.

By your definitions, probably there is no difference. But just as a simple example, if someone has the power to do something that is impossible for you to do yourself, you could say he's a magician, or you could just say he has abilities that you don't understand. Even the term "supernatural" assumes that we understand all the workings of nature, and know for certain that this thing defies all of them. That's a big assumption.

 

Quote:
2. And the people who 'get it' happen to be people who agree with you.

Well, I'd be pretty stupid to be believe in something I don't think is the truth, wouldn't I?  Smiling

The people who get it, were the people who agreed with Jesus. I am just one of millions.

 

Quote:
3. At central points, it argues that fantastic things happened.  I would not discard the Bible as a historical document, but I feel fairly safe in discounting the parts that claim magic.  We disclaim the supernatural parts of every other document from antiquity.  Why is the Bible special?  It has no more evidence than the others.

Because it's the truth. You'll see, sooner or later. It predicts some pretty spectacular events, and if it's true, you will have no doubt when those are fulfilled.

Then you will know why the bible is special above the rest. Other than that, I can't give any proof why the bible is better than the rest, except for personal experiences which don't carry much weight in an arugment.

 

Quote:
4. I do.  You don't because you were taught it is normal, but think about what you are actually doing...you are asking an invisible being to warp reality on your behalf.  If someone calls on mighty Nurgle to slay someone with a pox using certain ritual words how is it different?  If your parents had raised you as Nurgle worshipers, we might be having that discussion right now and your arguments would be the same.

But if Nurgle really did slay said person with pox, whether you like the idea of Nurgle being real or not, wouldn't you have to at least be open to the possibility that he is? (I don't know why this line is in a large font. I'm not yelling at you, I promise.)

You can have distaste for the supernatural all day long, but that doesn't make it unreal.

 

Quote:
5. It is not a 'greater' miracle, but it is one that cannot be faked well, and it cannot happen naturally.

And I suppose leperacy instantly leaving someone can be faked? How? 

What about a withered hand suddenly being healed? Have you ever seen someone with a withered hand (not sure what the medical term for that is)? I have, and it's not pretty. If it were healed, you would know it, and there's no way to fake that, especially since some of these people have had these illnesses even before Jesus was born, so why would they have been faking the illness?

Quote:
People can recover from cancer.  People can have spine injuries heal.  People can fake being crippled/sick....they do it all the time.

Cancer and spinal injuries don't just disappear in an  instant. And people don't fake illnesses and disabilities their entire lives, so that some guy they've never heard of can come fake-heal them. That doesn't even make sense.

 

Quote:
That is why I would be impressed.  It would actually be far easier (I imagine) than raising a corpse.

I would be impressed too. But no more than with any of the other miracles Jesus is documented to have done. 

 

Quote:
Now, if you can show someone legitimately dead for three days and necro them, I'll be impressed too.  But since Christians today typically only claim miraculous disease/injury recovery then a missing limb will do nicely.  Plenty of people give God credit for miracles that can happen naturally, but it is always ambiguous.

Just because some is possible without God doesn't mean it is probable without God.

Lots of people go in for heart-bypass surgery and don't survive. So we can't exactly give doctors all the credit either. Many times they lose patients for reasons beyond their abilities. Sometimes, the surgery goes perfectly, and the person still dies. So I definitely believe that God can heal people without the use of medicine, but He can heal people with the use of medicine as well. He can do whatever He wants. He's God. Miracles today seem to be more for the recipients than for the masses. Why? I don't know. But Jesus has already done enough miracles when He was on earth to firmly establish who He really was, for anyone who would believe. Many rejected Him even in the face of said miracles, while many others believed and called Him Lord. The same would happen if He came back today and did the same or even more impressive miracles. But now isn't the time for that. Now is the time for the next phase of His plan. That phase is over. I'm sorry you missed it. I'm sorry I missed it too. But things will get interesting again, according to the prophecies in the bible. The supernatural side of God will be revealed again to the earth. So just be patient for a while.

 

Quote:
Easy to prove too.  Other things would work though...a child born without a brain growing up to be a 'normal' human would be a neat trick.  Or heck, healing just about any moderate to severe birth defect.  Again though, God tends to bow out of those.  Strange how that works isn't it?

Not strange at all. I've already explained why.

Quote:
6. He never seemed shy about it before we knew better than to swallow what itinerant street preachers told us.

Again see the above.

Quote:
7. Not animosity towards you, frustration towards the same arguments we see over and over.  I actually started out on this board very patient but eventually I think I burned out a little bit.  I expected 'rational debate' and it never turned up.  If there were billions of Jello believers and they all wanted to tell you about Jello, and none of them were willing to do anything but argue about how Jello makes them feel regardless of reality...yea, frustrated.

Then what are you hoping to do by debating Theists about Theism? What is the goal? Are you trying to save them from wasting their lives? They don't believe they are wasting their lives. And if you don't believe your life is wasted, then in all actuality, it isn't wasted, becuase that is something that has everything to do with personal perspective anyway.

I've debated Christians about doctrinal principles in the bible for years, and even that often ends in frustration. I've debated many atheists as well, mostly on music oriented forums. I am amazed how many musicians are atheists. Good people, who have good morals and values that they got from their parents or from society. Good musicians too. Would give you the shirt off their back if you needed it. But knowing what I know about God, I have to at least try and tell them about the gospel, because if I didn't I would be at best a luke-warm believer (or fence-rider), and at worst an uncaring, compassionless scumbag.

 

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Please don't try to assign my motives to rebellion, you really don't know me well enough to do so.

According to what the bible says, you have rebelled against God. It's nothing personal. Every unbeliever has done the same. So have I for that matter, I just repented of it.

 

1. I'm still confused.  From what you are writing magic is what you call fake magic and supernatural is what you call 'real' magic.  Ok, I guess.

2. Ok, and if you were born in Iran you would be chanting to Allah six times a day, and it would be the 'Truth' and you would agree with millions.

3. You mean like how Jesus was supposed to come back while the disciples were still alive?  Matthew 16:28, and Luke 21:32 for example.  Like how Christians for 2,000 have been saying the exact same thing, from birth to death, that Jesus will be back any time?  Color me unconvinced, but you guys have a pretty bad track record so far.  If you have a different take on prophecy, let me know.  Perhaps something specific?  The problem with prophecy though is people just push it back every time it misses a marker all the way until they die.  You can never convince a believer that their prophecy is incorrect.  Search some of the threads with Luminon for a non-Christian prophecy believer.  It might be eye opening.

4. I keep forgetting you believe in magic, sorry.  Obviously, no-one ever died because of Nurgle pox and obviously I assume no-one ever will.  But hey, I guess it makes sense since there were other deities in the old testament, maybe one of them was a plague god and is still kicking around.  Or maybe Satan.  Or hell, God murdered people with disease so I guess that would be fine.

5. I am talking about modern reality, not the stories in the Bible.  If a modern day leper was sitting in a lab and he prayed to Jesus/Nurgle/Satan and blammo, he was healed, I would accept that.  What I am saying is people claim miracles *today* but they are always ambiguous, fake, natural healing or assisted by modern medicine.  The Bible can claim anything it wants.  Lots of old books claim all sorts of crazy stuff but it doesn't make any of it true.

7. Two goals.  One, people are shaken from theism.  It happens every day.  Two, you might not be shaken in your faith but if someone stumbles on these threads with an open mind it can make the difference.

Why do I care?  I care because I want to raise my children in a world where no-one tries to teach them magic is real and science is evil.  Where no-one tells them they are a worthless sinner damned to hell because they act according to their nature.  I want a world free of religious violence, where I can say anything I want and not worry about someone beating me to death or blowing up my house.  I want a world where traditional religions do not encourage and flat out teach misogyny and perpetuate a world where my daughter is a second class citizen because Eve is responsible for all the pain in the world.  I want a world where people donate to charity to help dig wells and give medicine to children, not a world where people spend all their effort on bibles to save souls in an imaginary future life while ignoring real human suffering.  I want to live in a world where people care about life *now* not a life after death.  I want to live in a world where you have to take real responsibility for your actions instead of relying on metaphysical forgiveness to salve your conscience.  I want a world based on reason instead of superstition and the mystic belief of ancient goat herders, where laws and morality are based on facts and ideals instead of Sharia and The Talmud and hypocritical preachers.

Jesus fucking Christ, I want that world so badly I can taste it.  I won't get that world, but I can help create it for those who come after me and that gives me some satisfaction.

8. And according to the Koran you are no better than a filthy Jew.  Does that worry you?  No?  The reason you are not scared of the supernatural threats of Muslims is the same reason I have no fear of your God...only I apply the same logic to your God that you apply to everyone else's god.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


Musicdude
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mellestad wrote:1. I'm still

mellestad wrote:

1. I'm still confused.  From what you are writing magic is what you call fake magic and supernatural is what you call 'real' magic.  Ok, I guess.

What is confusing. There is no such thing as magic. But there are "supernatural" beings who do things we can't explain, and so many times those things are called "magic."

 

Quote:
2. Ok, and if you were born in Iran you would be chanting to Allah six times a day, and it would be the 'Truth' and you would agree with millions.

Perhaps, but there are Iranian Christians. I would say that it wasn't by chance that I was born in Texas instead of Iran.

 

Quote:
3. You mean like how Jesus was supposed to come back while the disciples were still alive?  Matthew 16:28, and Luke 21:32 for example.  Like how Christians for 2,000 have been saying the exact same thing, from birth to death, that Jesus will be back any time?  Color me unconvinced, but you guys have a pretty bad track record so far.  If you have a different take on prophecy, let me know.  Perhaps something specific?  The problem with prophecy though is people just push it back every time it misses a marker all the way until they die.  You can never convince a believer that their prophecy is incorrect.  Search some of the threads with Luminon for a non-Christian prophecy believer.  It might be eye opening.

Well, to be quite honest I don't have answer for the Matthew 16:28 reference. But I'll find out, because now I'm curious. I do know that the bible does say that no man knows the day or hour, so to say that it's "missed markers" is to me false, because there are no markers to be missed. I don't know if it's tomorrow, or a thousand years for now. I just know it's coming.

 

Quote:
4. I keep forgetting you believe in magic, sorry.  Obviously, no-one ever died because of Nurgle pox and obviously I assume no-one ever will.  But hey, I guess it makes sense since there were other deities in the old testament, maybe one of them was a plague god and is still kicking around.  Or maybe Satan.  Or hell, God murdered people with disease so I guess that would be fine.

I was just saying what if, because you brought it up.

 

Quote:
5. I am talking about modern reality, not the stories in the Bible.  If a modern day leper was sitting in a lab and he prayed to Jesus/Nurgle/Satan and blammo, he was healed, I would accept that.  What I am saying is people claim miracles *today* but they are always ambiguous, fake, natural healing or assisted by modern medicine.  The Bible can claim anything it wants.  Lots of old books claim all sorts of crazy stuff but it doesn't make any of it true.

I think I've already explained this as best I can.

Miracles were for establishing who Jesus Christ was a the time, nothing more. And they accomplished that goal. They weren't intended to prove to the world that God is real.

 

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7. Two goals.  One, people are shaken from theism.  It happens every day.  Two, you might not be shaken in your faith but if someone stumbles on these threads with an open mind it can make the difference.

Fair enough.

 

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Why do I care?  I care because I want to raise my children in a world where no-one tries to teach them magic is real and science is evil.

Begging your pardon, my church teaches neither.  

 

Quote:
Where no-one tells them they are a worthless sinner damned to hell because they act according to their nature.

If it's true, don't they need to know? It's not as though we are ripped of our self-esteem. Our self-esteem is merely based on God not ourselves as Christians. 

Besides a little humility never hurt anyone.

Quote:
I want a world free of religious violence, where I can say anything I want and not worry about someone beating me to death or blowing up my house.

There will always be unstable people in this world, looking for something to be offended about, and looking to personally seek retribution. Ridding the world of religion for that reason is like ridding the world of guns to stop violent crimes. People will just pick up a different weapon, and continue the violence without so much as a hiccup.

Quote:
I want a world where traditional religions do not encourage and flat out teach misogyny and perpetuate a world where my daughter is a second class citizen because Eve is responsible for all the pain in the world.

That is a cultural thing as much as it is religious. But Chrisitianity doesn't teach that anyway, so I am with you on that one. My pastor is a woman by the way.

Quote:
I want a world where people donate to charity to help dig wells and give medicine to children, not a world where people spend all their effort on bibles to save souls in an imaginary future life while ignoring real human suffering.

So do I. Last saturday I was part of a group who gave out about 12 palettes of food to a poor community, and do once a month. I think we fulfill a very real need of theirs. We also share the gospel with them, and have activities for the children, and music and ministry for the adults. Of course accepting Jesus Christ is not required to recieve the food. We also raffle off lots of good stuff that gets donated by our church. We gave a nice TV away saturday, and a bunch of clothes. This is just one ministry at my church.

Quote:
I want to live in a world where people care about life *now* not a life after death.

Why not both? Death is coming for us all, and only a very small percentage of people on this earth believe that we do nothing but feed the worms when we die. So maybe it's worth being concerned about. Whether you believe in God or not, you have to agree that humans spend a lot more time dead than alive. Why shouldn't it take priority?

Quote:
I want to live in a world where you have to take real responsibility for your actions instead of relying on metaphysical forgiveness to salve your conscience.

Christianity teaches us that when we sin against man, we also sin against God. Asking God for forgiveness and freely recieving it, does not relieve us of our responsibility toward the humans that we sinned against. For example, if I stole your car, I would have to confess it to God, and I would also have to return your car and compensate you for the trouble I've caused you for taking it.

Quote:
I want a world based on reason instead of superstition and the mystic belief of ancient goat herders, where laws and morality are based on facts and ideals instead of Sharia and The Talmud and hypocritical preachers.

Why talk down to goat-herders, as if they are less intelligent than you just because they had less technology? Goat-herding or shepherding was a noble profession back then. Are you saying that just because they weren't tenured professors, they are just a bunch of dummies and we are much better than them? That's pretty arrogant. I'm an electrician at a power-plant, with an associate degree from a community college. Are you better than me, because of that? Smarter? Do your opinions matter more?

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Jesus fucking Christ, I want that world so badly I can taste it.

That's mature. 

Quote:
I won't get that world, but I can help create it for those who come after me and that gives me some satisfaction.

You are just the humanist Martin Luther King aren't you? Dream on. Eye-wink

Quote:
8. And according to the Koran you are no better than a filthy Jew.  Does that worry you?  No?  The reason you are not scared of the supernatural threats of Muslims is the same reason I have no fear of your God...only I apply the same logic to your God that you apply to everyone else's god.

That sounds really good and simple, but it's not.

 

I want all of humanity to know the truth. I think I have found the truth, so I want to share it, just like you.

Time will tell who was right and who was wrong.

 

FWIW, my God doesn't want your fear. He wants you to realize that He loves you, and wants to help you out of the sad situation you placed yourself in by sinning. Before you quote me some scripture telling me to fear the Lord, I'll answer that in advance. It's talking about respect. Fear is a bad translation. If God wanted people to fear Him, then why are the first words out of His mouth when he talked to people all throughout the bible, "fear not?"

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


mellestad
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Musicdude wrote:mellestad

Musicdude wrote:

mellestad wrote:

1. I'm still confused.  From what you are writing magic is what you call fake magic and supernatural is what you call 'real' magic.  Ok, I guess.

What is confusing. There is no such thing as magic. But there are "supernatural" beings who do things we can't explain, and so many times those things are called "magic."

 

Ok, so there is no such thing as magic, but certain beings can do magic.  I guess we can agree to disagree on whether or not that makes sense.

Musicdude wrote:

Quote:
2. Ok, and if you were born in Iran you would be chanting to Allah six times a day, and it would be the 'Truth' and you would agree with millions.

Perhaps, but there are Iranian Christians. I would say that it wasn't by chance that I was born in Texas instead of Iran.

So what...they are cursed?  Did their souls do something to annoy Jesus?

 

Musicdude wrote:

Quote:
3. You mean like how Jesus was supposed to come back while the disciples were still alive?  Matthew 16:28, and Luke 21:32 for example.  Like how Christians for 2,000 have been saying the exact same thing, from birth to death, that Jesus will be back any time?  Color me unconvinced, but you guys have a pretty bad track record so far.  If you have a different take on prophecy, let me know.  Perhaps something specific?  The problem with prophecy though is people just push it back every time it misses a marker all the way until they die.  You can never convince a believer that their prophecy is incorrect.  Search some of the threads with Luminon for a non-Christian prophecy believer.  It might be eye opening.

Well, to be quite honest I don't have answer for the Matthew 16:28 reference. But I'll find out, because now I'm curious. I do know that the bible does say that no man knows the day or hour, so to say that it's "missed markers" is to me false, because there are no markers to be missed. I don't know if it's tomorrow, or a thousand years for now. I just know it's coming.

And you will find an answer.  You have to, because you accept your beliefs by default without actually analyzing them.  Either it is wrong or it isn't...the verse is not cryptic or ambiguous, it is one of the more straight-forward things in the Bible.

Musicdude wrote:

Quote:
4. I keep forgetting you believe in magic, sorry.  Obviously, no-one ever died because of Nurgle pox and obviously I assume no-one ever will.  But hey, I guess it makes sense since there were other deities in the old testament, maybe one of them was a plague god and is still kicking around.  Or maybe Satan.  Or hell, God murdered people with disease so I guess that would be fine.

I was just saying what if, because you brought it up.

 

Quote:
5. I am talking about modern reality, not the stories in the Bible.  If a modern day leper was sitting in a lab and he prayed to Jesus/Nurgle/Satan and blammo, he was healed, I would accept that.  What I am saying is people claim miracles *today* but they are always ambiguous, fake, natural healing or assisted by modern medicine.  The Bible can claim anything it wants.  Lots of old books claim all sorts of crazy stuff but it doesn't make any of it true.

I think I've already explained this as best I can.

Miracles were for establishing who Jesus Christ was a the time, nothing more. And they accomplished that goal. They weren't intended to prove to the world that God is real.

Ok, here is a specific question, if you only answer one thing, answer this.  And spend some time reflecting on it, as a personal favor to me: Why are you willing to take miracle claims in an ancient text at face value when you have never seen an actual miracle?

Musicdude wrote:

Quote:
7. Two goals.  One, people are shaken from theism.  It happens every day.  Two, you might not be shaken in your faith but if someone stumbles on these threads with an open mind it can make the difference.

Fair enough.

 

Quote:
Why do I care?  I care because I want to raise my children in a world where no-one tries to teach them magic is real and science is evil.

Begging your pardon, my church teaches neither.  

I'm not after your church specifically.  However, there most certainly *are* many that teach this.  Have you ever heard, "If science and the Bible disagree, science is wrong."?

 

Musicdude wrote:

Quote:
Where no-one tells them they are a worthless sinner damned to hell because they act according to their nature.

If it's true, don't they need to know? It's not as though we are ripped of our self-esteem. Our self-esteem is merely based on God not ourselves as Christians. 

Besides a little humility never hurt anyone.

There is a difference between humility and shame.  Wanting to have sex, being gay, having thoughts in your head without acting on them...these are not things to be ashamed of, they are a natural part of the human condition.  The reason there is so much religious guilt is because the system is set up so that you *must* fail, and the only way to achieve absolution is to pander to your religion of circumstance.

Musicdude wrote:

Quote:
I want a world free of religious violence, where I can say anything I want and not worry about someone beating me to death or blowing up my house.

There will always be unstable people in this world, looking for something to be offended about, and looking to personally seek retribution. Ridding the world of religion for that reason is like ridding the world of guns to stop violent crimes. People will just pick up a different weapon, and continue the violence without so much as a hiccup.

I don't want any ideologies around that incite unjust violence, but this is a forum about religion so I bring that up specifically.  My point stands.

Musicdude wrote:

Quote:
I want a world where traditional religions do not encourage and flat out teach misogyny and perpetuate a world where my daughter is a second class citizen because Eve is responsible for all the pain in the world.

That is a cultural thing as much as it is religious. But Christianity doesn't teach that anyway, so I am with you on that one. My pastor is a woman by the way.

That is great, the more liberal a religion becomes the more tolerant of it I become.  However, Christianity is certainly misogynistic.  It is based on patriarchal societies where women were property and it cannot escape that history without massive revision. Ephesians 5:22–23, Revelation 14:4, Job 25:4, 1 Peter 3:7, 1 Corinthians 11:9, 1 Corinthians 14:34, 1 Timothy 2:11–12, Leviticus 15:17–33, Leviticus 12:2–5.  Summary: God wants women to shut up and obey men, periods are icky and girl children are icky too.

http://www.seesharppress.com/20reasons.html#numbersixteen

Musicdude wrote:

Quote:
I want a world where people donate to charity to help dig wells and give medicine to children, not a world where people spend all their effort on bibles to save souls in an imaginary future life while ignoring real human suffering.

So do I. Last saturday I was part of a group who gave out about 12 palettes of food to a poor community, and do once a month. I think we fulfill a very real need of theirs. We also share the gospel with them, and have activities for the children, and music and ministry for the adults. Of course accepting Jesus Christ is not required to recieve the food. We also raffle off lots of good stuff that gets donated by our church. We gave a nice TV away saturday, and a bunch of clothes. This is just one ministry at my church.

Good for you.  Every 30 dollars spent on Bible's and preaching is worth a child starving to death.  Every tax free dollar your church spends to get new pews or buy a new guitar for the church band is another person who didn't get AIDS drugs.

I'm fine with religious charity as long as the money actually goes towards charity work instead of using disasters and misery to push religion on vulnerable people.

Musicdude wrote:

Quote:
I want to live in a world where people care about life *now* not a life after death.

Why not both? Death is coming for us all, and only a very small percentage of people on this earth believe that we do nothing but feed the worms when we die. So maybe it's worth being concerned about. Whether you believe in God or not, you have to agree that humans spend a lot more time dead than alive. Why shouldn't it take priority?

Because that energy could be used on what is shown to be real.

Musicdude wrote:

Quote:
I want to live in a world where you have to take real responsibility for your actions instead of relying on metaphysical forgiveness to salve your conscience.

Christianity teaches us that when we sin against man, we also sin against God. Asking God for forgiveness and freely receiving it, does not relieve us of our responsibility toward the humans that we sinned against. For example, if I stole your car, I would have to confess it to God, and I would also have to return your car and compensate you for the trouble I've caused you for taking it.

Some do, but many use the idea of supernatural grace as a shield against culpability.

Musicdude wrote:

Quote:
I want a world based on reason instead of superstition and the mystic belief of ancient goat herders, where laws and morality are based on facts and ideals instead of Sharia and The Talmud and hypocritical preachers.

Why talk down to goat-herders, as if they are less intelligent than you just because they had less technology? Goat-herding or shepherding was a noble profession back then. Are you saying that just because they weren't tenured professors, they are just a bunch of dummies and we are much better than them? That's pretty arrogant. I'm an electrician at a power-plant, with an associate degree from a community college. Are you better than me, because of that? Smarter? Do your opinions matter more?

These goat herders were speculating on the nature of the universe at a time when every tribe had a unique deity and magic (not supernatural events) were accepted as every day occurrences.  There is no reason to mock any truth they have stumbles upon, but there is certinaly reason to take what they say with a large dollop of critical thinking.

Musicdude wrote:

Quote:
Jesus fucking Christ, I want that world so badly I can taste it.

That's mature. 

It is genuine.

Musicdude wrote:

Quote:
I won't get that world, but I can help create it for those who come after me and that gives me some satisfaction.

You are just the humanist Martin Luther King aren't you? Dream on. Eye-wink

Do some research on rates of atheism over the last 100 years.  See if you can spot a trend between wealth and stability and religion.

Your best bet for an eternity of religion is an outbreak of misery.

Musicdude wrote:

Quote:
8. And according to the Koran you are no better than a filthy Jew.  Does that worry you?  No?  The reason you are not scared of the supernatural threats of Muslims is the same reason I have no fear of your God...only I apply the same logic to your God that you apply to everyone else's god.

That sounds really good and simple, but it's not.

Enlighten me.  Why is it complicated?  Again, my point: A Mormon, a protestant, a catholic, a Jew, a Muslim a Hindu and a Scientology's could all be asked to write a latter about why they believe what they believe.  If  you removed all the proper nouns from those letters and mixed them up they would be identical.  To me, that says a great deal about the core of each mutually contradictory belief.

 

Musicdude wrote:

I want all of humanity to know the truth. I think I have found the truth, so I want to share it, just like you.

Time will tell who was right and who was wrong.

 

No it won't, you have a position that you are not willing to establish criteria for falsification.  I could shoot down every single hard belief you have and in the end you would say you still had faith, even though you have no reason to do so.

Musicdude wrote:

FWIW, my God doesn't want your fear. He wants you to realize that He loves you, and wants to help you out of the sad situation you placed yourself in by sinning. Before you quote me some scripture telling me to fear the Lord, I'll answer that in advance. It's talking about respect. Fear is a bad translation. If God wanted people to fear Him, then why are the first words out of His mouth when he talked to people all throughout the bible, "fear not?"

You god might not want fear.  The god in the Bible though certainly does, and the god many people follow certainly does.

Since your god is unique to you, I really can't say whether or not it wants my fear.  Part of the problem when dealing with Christians is you can read the same source material and end up with religions that cannot logically coexist.

 

You don't seem a bad sort, but that is not unusual.  The problem is the religion most people in America follow is not actually the religion they think it is.  I would encourage every adult Christian to read the Bible all on their own.  Honestly, for most people I think that would be enough to at least liberalize their religion.  The Bible as a whole is a terrible guidebook for living a modern life, and the parts that are good are not unique to the religion.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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mellestad wrote:So

mellestad wrote:

So what...they are cursed?  Did their souls do something to annoy Jesus?

I don't think it's a curse to be born in Iran.

Quote:
And you will find an answer.  You have to, because you accept your beliefs by default without actually analyzing them.  Either it is wrong or it isn't...the verse is not cryptic or ambiguous, it is one of the more straight-forward things in the Bible.

It's true that I'm not completely objective, and neither is anyone else. There is no such thing as perfect objectivity. We are all the product of our circumstance combined with our unique personalities. But I try to not just accept anything just because someone tells me it's true. For example, I have taken a lot of time to make sure I can prove what I believe with the bible it'self. There are a lot of seeming contradictions in scripture, but further study shows that they are only contradictions when they are misunderstood. I imagine this is the same thing, but I could be wrong. I'm not blindly assuming that this isn't a contradiction. If I were, I wouldn't even bother to research it at all.

Quote:
Ok, here is a specific question, if you only answer one thing, answer this.  And spend some time reflecting on it, as a personal favor to me: Why are you willing to take miracle claims in an ancient text at face value when you have never seen an actual miracle?

Why do you believe in abiogenesis when you've never seen a modern day example of life springing up from lifeless matter? I'm sorry to answer a question with a question, but that is the best I can do to make you understand. You have faith in science, and I have faith in God. You are inclined to believe what science claims, and I am inclined to believe what God claims in the bible. If you knew someone personally who has never told a lie that you are aware of, and you've known this person a long time, and that person tells you something that can't be proven, you are still going to tend to believe them based on the verasity of their character. That is faith. You believe that modern science is basically agenda-free, and trustworthy. I do not. I think the term "science" and what it stands for is trustworthy and without agenda. But scientists often are less genuine. Take climate-gate for example. And even though most of you guys probably have about as much contempt for Ben Stein as you do for Kirk Cameron, his documentary revealed some of that as well.

 

Quote:
I'm not after your church specifically.  However, there most certainly *are* many that teach this.  Have you ever heard, "If science and the Bible disagree, science is wrong."?

I completely agree with that statement. But the caveat is that science and the bible will never be disagreed. Scientists and the bible may be disagreed, but not science.

 

Quote:
There is a difference between humility and shame.  Wanting to have sex, being gay, having thoughts in your head without acting on them...these are not things to be ashamed of, they are a natural part of the human condition.  The reason there is so much religious guilt is because the system is set up so that you *must* fail, and the only way to achieve absolution is to pander to your religion of circumstance.

The bible encourages sex, not discourages it. God created it afterall. Of course it has it's proper time and place, and the bible makes it clear that if it is done outside of it's proper time and place, then it is wrong. But sex it'self is highly encouraged in the bible, and personally I'm glad for it. Eye-wink  And saying that "being gay" is a "natural part of the human condition" is highly debatable, and highly debated. As far as I know there is no scientific proof that homosexuality is genetic. And are you serious about the "having thoughts in your head but not acting on them" statement? So we should just do everything that pops into our heads without discretion or reservation, or self-control? Even most atheists don't believe that. Have you ever contemplated suicide? Should you have just gone through with it then?

 

Quote:
I don't want any ideologies around that incite unjust violence, but this is a forum about religion so I bring that up specifically.  My point stands.

I don't want that either. So I'm glad Christianity isn't one of those ideologies.

 

Quote:
That is great, the more liberal a religion becomes the more tolerant of it I become.  However, Christianity is certainly misogynistic.  It is based on patriarchal societies where women were property and it cannot escape that history without massive revision. Ephesians 5:22–23, Revelation 14:4, Job 25:4, 1 Peter 3:7, 1 Corinthians 11:9, 1 Corinthians 14:34, 1 Timothy 2:11–12, Leviticus 15:17–33, Leviticus 12:2–5.  Summary: God wants women to shut up and obey men, periods are icky and girl children are icky too.

So let me ask you this. Because the bible tells children to obey their parents, does that somehow mean that children are looked down upon? No. Subordination does not equal misogyny.

The bible tells the wife to willfully submit to their husbands as the church submits to Christ. And it also tells husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the church. If a husband were truly to love his wife as Jesus Christ loved His church, why wouldn't a woman want to submit to a man like that? 

I have to submit to my boss at work, does that make me less important than him as a person? No.

I have to submit to police officers, does that make me less important than them as a person? No.

Authority and submission are natural parts of our everyday lives. There are leaders and followers, and both are equally important.

 

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Good for you.  Every 30 dollars spent on Bible's and preaching is worth a child starving to death.  Every tax free dollar your church spends to get new pews or buy a new guitar for the church band is another person who didn't get AIDS drugs.

We buy our own bibles. The praise band buys their own instruments. I donated the sound system with left over audio equipment that I wasn't going to use. We are renting a building which is part of a bigger church, who charges us almost nothing for it. We aren't wasteful as you imply. And you know what, I know there are churches who are. But I don't go to those churches, and I'm am not defending them. But we are no less Christian just because we aren't wasteful like them. And we are not liberal just because we have a female pastor. My pastor has written a book about why the western attitude that women shouldn't be church leaders is a herecy.

 

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Because that energy could be used on what is shown to be real.

Death isn't real?

 

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Some do, but many use the idea of supernatural grace as a shield against culpability.

I couldn't care less what "some do." I care what the bible says. And it says to repay your neighbor when you sin against him.

 

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These goat herders were speculating on the nature of the universe at a time when every tribe had a unique deity and magic (not supernatural events) were accepted as every day occurrences.  There is no reason to mock any truth they have stumbles upon, but there is certinaly reason to take what they say with a large dollop of critical thinking.

No they weren't. They were writing down what they were told by God. You wanna argue about that for a century or two?

 

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It is genuine.

The sentiment may be genuine, but the blasphemy is a cheap shot. Why blaspheme a God who doesn't exist, except to piss off those who believe in Him? Thats a good way to get converts. Eye-wink

 

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Do some research on rates of atheism over the last 100 years.  See if you can spot a trend between wealth and stability and religion.

Your best bet for an eternity of religion is an outbreak of misery.

Because when people have money, they suddenly think they don't need God anymore, that is until that money eventually becomes more of a problem than a blessing. It all comes back at some point. Prosperous nations don't keep their prosperity forever, because wealth leads to self-sufficiency (relying on self rather than God), and that leads to corruption, and corruption leads to poverty. And so the cycle goes.

 

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Enlighten me.  Why is it complicated?  Again, my point: A Mormon, a protestant, a catholic, a Jew, a Muslim a Hindu and a Scientology's could all be asked to write a latter about why they believe what they believe.  If  you removed all the proper nouns from those letters and mixed them up they would be identical.  To me, that says a great deal about the core of each mutually contradictory belief.

There are unlimited false ideas about God, and one truth.

 

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No it won't, you have a position that you are not willing to establish criteria for falsification.  I could shoot down every single hard belief you have and in the end you would say you still had faith, even though you have no reason to do so.

And I could do the same for many of the theories you believe in, and you would still believe.

 

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You god might not want fear.  The god in the Bible though certainly does, and the god many people follow certainly does.

Wrong. I've already explained why.

 

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Since your god is unique to you, I really can't say whether or not it wants my fear.  Part of the problem when dealing with Christians is you can read the same source material and end up with religions that cannot logically coexist.

My God is the God of Abraham, the God of Moses, the God of Isaiah, the God of John, the God of Jesus, the God of Paul, the God of Peter, etc. He is the only God who has ever existed and will ever exist. No matter how men twist His words to make Him into something He's not, He is still who He has always claimed to be.

 

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You don't seem a bad sort, but that is not unusual.

Thanks, you too. Smiling

 

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The problem is the religion most people in America follow is not actually the religion they think it is.

I don't know about "most" but I would agree with your statement if you'd said "many" instead. 

 

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I would encourage every adult Christian to read the Bible all on their own.

So would I. The bible warns against just accepting what pastors say without comparing their teachings to the bible.

 

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Honestly, for most people I think that would be enough to at least liberalize their religion.

Liberal compared to modern Christianity maybe. But not compared to the bible it'self.

 

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The Bible as a whole is a terrible guidebook for living a modern life, and the parts that are good are not unique to the religion.

Who are you to say what parts are good and which aren't? If it's the truth, then it matters not what you think about it.

Salvation by grace as opposed to works is unique to Christianity. And that is the key theme of the bible. No other God gives a crap about humanity besides Yahweh. That is because all the rest are man-made, and men make idols in their own image. They make Gods they can relate to, and understand. That's why their gods are selfish, and tyrranical.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


mellestad
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The quote tree is too big,

The quote tree is too big, I'm going to respond free-form, hopefully it does not get too confusing.  I'll number my responses for convenience, and my responses will be top to bottom according to your post.

1. If you were pre-ordained to be born in America, and that is a blessing, what did you do to deserve that?  Why would you be picked over someone born in a less Christian nation?  What 'you' was there before you were born anyway?

2. I understand that you can rationalize study of scripture, but some things just are not doable.  The verse I quoted is point blank: They thought Jesus was coming back within 40 years (probably lifespan).  He did not.  Ever since then, people think Jesus is coming back "soon".  Isn't two *thousand* years long enough to give up that idea?  He didn't come back for the black death or the world wars, why would it be soon?  Why would you believe you are living during the real soon (this time we really mean it!) and everyone else in history was wrong?  It just seems arrogant and short sighted to me.

3. I believe in many scientific ideas because they have a theoretical model that makes sense.  A miracle claim is a bald assertion: all you have is a statement of 'truth' without any evidence, nor any way to rationalize that claim with reality.  And you can pick on any particular bit of science you want, but here is the secret theists ignore: Science changes.  If science has something wrong, it fixes itself.  When science gets something wrong and then adapts, that is not science being broken, it is science doing what it is supposed to do!

If global warming turns out to be a scam (start a new thread with the science geeks if you want to debate that), science will move past it.  Theism claims to know Truth with a capital T.  Science claims to do the best it can to understand the reality in which humans find themselves.  Honestly when people compare theistic faith with scientific consensus it shows they don't understand what science actually *is*.

4. There was no global flood, science is in full agreement with that fact.  There, science and the Bible disagree.  So now what?  Was the flood just a story, made up?  Is science wrong and there really was a global flood that breaks the laws of reality, then vanished without leaving any traces?  Something else?

5. Ok, *you* think the Bible encourages sex.  The 2,000 year history of the church makes it clear that it does not, except in specific circumstance (to breed more Christians).

I think you are confused about what I meant about thoughts and actions.  My issue is the Bible makes thinking about something bad as bad as commiting the act.  If I see a pretty girl walk buy and I have a flash of lust, that not equal to cheating on my wife.  The Bible says it is.  To me, that encourages guilt for no reason other than encouraging guilt.

6. The beauty of Christianity is people can use it to justify violence or condemn violence.  God specifically ordered genocide in the OT.  Popes used the Bible to justify wars.  People ask Jesus Christ to bless them before they go into battle in modern war.  Right now there is probably a soldier asking God to help him kill some Arabs.  In all those situations those people believe in the same God you do, for the same reasons.  You say you are right and they are wrong, but you both have the same rule book to start with.  What happened?

7. No, I am not equal to my boss.  Or a cop.  To say I am a naive.  You mean equal in some sort of spiritual sense, I mean equal in reality.  I think the idea that I can tell my wife to shut her mouth and if she doesn't God will punish her is...disgusting.  Christians, even recently, used the Bible to justify wife beating and slavery.  Women are subordinate to men, and patriarchal societies tend to beat women.  Black people are cursed by God because of the curse of Ham, so they are beneath other humans.  Leaders are more important than followers.  George Washington was more important than a nameless trooper who froze to death without firing a shot.

You have this conceptual construct of your religion that does not match reality.  I'll come back around to this in a summary at the bottom.

8. The point stands.  The money your church uses for the social aspects should not be tax free.  I don't get credit for giving money to social clubs.

9. Death is real, but the afterlife has not been shown to be so.

10. I do care what some do.  Even if your religion specific brand of theism was perfect, I would criticize the source material that the rest use.

11. You keep making flat assertions about the Bible.  "The goat herders were right because they were right, it says they were right in the book they wrote!".

12. You can blaspheme any belief I have and I won't be offended.  One of the problems with religion is the expectation that it is somehow sacred.  It should be as open to mockery as political affiliation or which sports team you like, because all three are just opinions.

13. I think it is education more than money, but being secure probably plays a role.  My pet theory is that the more a person knows about reality, the less they need a magic god to fill in the gaps.  That is just speculation on my part though.

And you are right, if the world economy collapses there very well might be another revival.  I'd rather keep everyone fat, rich and safe.

14. sigh.  And the one truth just *happens* to be the truth you believe.  How convenient for you.  The thing that also gets me is you are willing to accept the revelation of the above goat herders.  So what about all the other primitive societies with creation myths, miracle claims and gods remarkably similar during those times?  If you are willing to accept the 'facts' stated by primitive cultures at face value, I don't see how you can separate the wheat from the chaff.  But again, you 'know' the truth, even though ever other theist who thinks you'll burn in hell also 'knows' the truth, and their reasoning is identical.

Ok, actual question: If I were a neutral observer, say an alien from Mars, and I got to earth and I had a Muslim, a couple flavors of Protestant,  a Catholic, a Mormon, a Zeus worshiper, a Sumerian, etc. in a room with me trying to convert me, how would I tell who was lying?  They all say they know the Truth (big T) and they all say the others are wrong.  They all point to old books.  None of them have physical evidence.  All of them claim that if I choose incorrectly I am doomed.  They all claim miracles, but seem to have lost the video tapes where their god's regrow a limb or raise a corpse.

So what do I do?  That is the situation I find myself in daily.

15. Actually, I can and do change my mind about what I believe.  I am wrong all the time.

16. skipped

17. Actually, if you were plopped down in with some ancient Jews there is a good chance you would wind up dead.  Lord help you if you say you are gay, or pick up a stick on Sunday, because then they really would stone you to death.

18. The reason I think the Bible would change people is that they would find it so horrifying it would shake their faith.  The parts where God tells people to kill cities full of babies are the best.  Or the part where God hypnotizes an Egyptian leader and convinces him to get their first born killed.  Or how about the part where God gambles with the devil and murders an innocent mans family to score points in a ghost-pissing contest?  Or the part where God says you have to murder your gay neighbor.

I don't think it is possible to mix Biblical literalism and modern morality without massive cognitive dissonance.

19. How do *you* choose what to believe in the Bible?  Clearly it is a choice since you don't believe what Christians believes even 100 years ago.  Yahweh isn't selfish and tyrannical?  I don't even know what to say to that, clearly we have read different versions of the Bible.

 

The Bible is a living document that people adapt to their own beliefs.  Every generation says they know the true will of God even though generations past of future will hold contrary ideas and also say they know the true will of God.  Morality is a secular thing that theism always seems to be limping alone behind. 

In one hundred years most Christians will probably be making excuses for why homosexuality is actually OK, even though it clearly says it is not in the Bible.  You already see that in some denominations where they allow gay preachers and they can show you the verses that 'prove' it.  The same thing happened with blacks, the same thing happened with women.  Some denominations still think a woman preacher is bad and they can show why the Bible says so, and you can say it isn't bad and show why the Bible says so.  Both of you are right within the context of the specific verses you quote.  But both of you can't really be right.

Sexual morality is also changing.  My pet theory is because of birth control and abortion.  The rules about sex are no longer needed, so they are starting to fade even while theism clings to tradition.  That too shall pass.

If you really believed the Bible you would be living like a traditional Jew.  You don't because you have the luxury of adapting the Bible to the society you exist in.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


Musicdude
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You win. I give up. I had

You win. I give up.

 

I had an extremely long reply to address each statement and question you had in this post. I worked on it yesterday before I left work, and just left it open so I could finish it this morning. I did finish it, and got distracted for a few minutes, and went to close another page, and it closed this one too. So I lost my reply, and I don't have the time or energy to do it again. At least not now.

 

I hate it when stuff like that happens.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


mellestad
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Heh, that happened to me

Heh, that happened to me earlier in this sequence.  I was trying to highlight something at the top of the page and I accidently clicked one of the shortcuts on my favorite bar.  I almost stroked out.

Usually once my posts get longer than a paragraph I highlight them and hit ctrl-c every now and then, to stave off blood pressure issues.

 

Take your time on responding, I am enjoying the discussion.

 

Edit: What do you do for a living?

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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mellestad wrote:Heh, that

mellestad wrote:

Heh, that happened to me earlier in this sequence.  I was trying to highlight something at the top of the page and I accidently clicked one of the shortcuts on my favorite bar.  I almost stroked out.

Usually once my posts get longer than a paragraph I highlight them and hit ctrl-c every now and then, to stave off blood pressure issues.

 

Take your time on responding, I am enjoying the discussion.

 

Edit: What do you do for a living?

 

Yeah, I usually do that too, but the one time I don't copy it to clipboard is the one time I needed to. lol

A buddy of mine types all his long responses in Word, saving it often, then just copies it to the forum when done. I always get weird font issues when I do that. But oh well.

I will redo the response, but probably not till monday. I'm busy today at work, and I don't get online much on the weekends.

 

I'm high-voltage electrician at a power plant. But I'm a wannabe musician. How about you?

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


mellestad
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Musicdude wrote:mellestad

Musicdude wrote:

mellestad wrote:

Heh, that happened to me earlier in this sequence.  I was trying to highlight something at the top of the page and I accidently clicked one of the shortcuts on my favorite bar.  I almost stroked out.

Usually once my posts get longer than a paragraph I highlight them and hit ctrl-c every now and then, to stave off blood pressure issues.

 

Take your time on responding, I am enjoying the discussion.

 

Edit: What do you do for a living?

 

Yeah, I usually do that too, but the one time I don't copy it to clipboard is the one time I needed to. lol

A buddy of mine types all his long responses in Word, saving it often, then just copies it to the forum when done. I always get weird font issues when I do that. But oh well.

I will redo the response, but probably not till monday. I'm busy today at work, and I don't get online much on the weekends.

 

I'm high-voltage electrician at a power plant. But I'm a wannabe musician. How about you?

I am the same way, my weekends are too precious to blow time on forums Smiling

I am a network admin at a chemical manufacturing company in the Pacific Northwest.  Stay safe!

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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mellestad wrote: The quote

mellestad wrote:

The quote tree is too big, I'm going to respond free-form, hopefully it does not get too confusing.  I'll number my responses for convenience, and my responses will be top to bottom according to your post.

1. If you were pre-ordained to be born in America, and that is a blessing, what did you do to deserve that?  Why would you be picked over someone born in a less Christian nation?  What 'you' was there before you were born anyway?

I never said being born in America is necessarily a blessing. Honestly I'm not sure it is, from a spiritual perspective. At best there are pros and cons. Being born in a wealthy nation is a lot like being born into a wealthy family, it's a blessing and a curse. But anyway, all I said was that it was no accident. I didn't say it was a blessing.

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2. I understand that you can rationalize study of scripture, but some things just are not doable.  The verse I quoted is point blank: They thought Jesus was coming back within 40 years (probably lifespan).  He did not.  Ever since then, people think Jesus is coming back "soon".  Isn't two *thousand* years long enough to give up that idea?  He didn't come back for the black death or the world wars, why would it be soon?  Why would you believe you are living during the real soon (this time we really mean it!) and everyone else in history was wrong?  It just seems arrogant and short sighted to me.

And that is why I didn't give you a rationalization which I coud've easily produced. I said honestly that I don't know, and I'll look into it.

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3. I believe in many scientific ideas because they have a theoretical model that makes sense.  A miracle claim is a bald assertion: all you have is a statement of 'truth' without any evidence,

I'll buy no proof, but no evidence? Please. The bible is evidence. The fact that some goat-herder's voodoo religion is practiced and preached thousands of years later is evidence. If there was no truth to it, wouldn't it have died off at some point?

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nor any way to rationalize that claim with reality.  And you can pick on any particular bit of science you want, but here is the secret theists ignore: Science changes.  If science has something wrong, it fixes itself.  When science gets something wrong and then adapts, that is not science being broken, it is science doing what it is supposed to do!

And thus science may be wrong about the non-existence of God. Hopefully they will be big enough to admit their error, when it's revealed.

Only select few scientists will even consider a theory that might go along with the bible's claims.

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If global warming turns out to be a scam (start a new thread with the science geeks if you want to debate that), science will move past it.  Theism claims to know Truth with a capital T.  Science claims to do the best it can to understand the reality in which humans find themselves.  Honestly when people compare theistic faith with scientific consensus it shows they don't understand what science actually *is*.

Do you not believe there is such a thing as absolute truth?

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4. There was no global flood, science is in full agreement with that fact.  There, science and the Bible disagree.  So now what?  Was the flood just a story, made up?  Is science wrong and there really was a global flood that breaks the laws of reality, then vanished without leaving any traces?  Something else?

Science is in full agreement about nothing, that I've seen. There may be a consensus, but to say that "science is in full agreement" is a farse. What is the "law of reality" you are referring to? Never heard of that one.

Floods happen all the time.

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5. Ok, *you* think the Bible encourages sex.  The 2,000 year history of the church makes it clear that it does not, except in specific circumstance (to breed more Christians).

I am concerned with what the bible teaches, not the traditions of the church.

1 Corinthians 7:4-5 (New International Version)

4The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and only for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

Is that clear enough, or is it just me?

In other words, a husband and wife should not deprive each other from their bodies.

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I think you are confused about what I meant about thoughts and actions.  My issue is the Bible makes thinking about something bad as bad as commiting the act.  If I see a pretty girl walk buy and I have a flash of lust, that not equal to cheating on my wife.  The Bible says it is.  To me, that encourages guilt for no reason other than encouraging guilt.

No it doesn't say the act is equal. It says the penalty is equal.

In other words, if you say "I've never raped a woman, so I am a very good person," Jesus would reply "get off your high horse, because you've raped hundreds of women with your mind, and you are no less a sinner than the rapist."

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6. The beauty of Christianity is people can use it to justify violence or condemn violence.  God specifically ordered genocide in the OT.  Popes used the Bible to justify wars.  People ask Jesus Christ to bless them before they go into battle in modern war.  Right now there is probably a soldier asking God to help him kill some Arabs.  In all those situations those people believe in the same God you do, for the same reasons.  You say you are right and they are wrong, but you both have the same rule book to start with.  What happened?

So are you anti-war then? Is violence never necessary in your estimation? I wish violence were never necessary, but I live in the real world.

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7. No, I am not equal to my boss.  Or a cop.  To say I am a naive.  You mean equal in some sort of spiritual sense, I mean equal in reality.  I think the idea that I can tell my wife to shut her mouth and if she doesn't God will punish her is...disgusting.  Christians, even recently, used the Bible to justify wife beating and slavery.  Women are subordinate to men, and patriarchal societies tend to beat women.  Black people are cursed by God because of the curse of Ham, so they are beneath other humans.  Leaders are more important than followers.  George Washington was more important than a nameless trooper who froze to death without firing a shot.

Is your life worth less than theirs because you are subordinate to them? If you believe that, you have self-esteem issues.

If a boss is extremely good at his job, but his employees aren't, the whole operation is going to fail. So they are equally important. Actually the vice-versa isn't always true though. If the employees are really good but the boss isn't, the operation can still succeed. So if anything, the followers are more important than the leaders. But really I would say they are equal.

As far as marriage goes, like I said, it's a two-way street. God didn't only give instruction to the wives. He gave instruction to the husbands too. A loving husband doesn't just tell his wife to shut her mouth, unless she is extremely out of line, in which case she probably isn't going to submit anyway. There you go again citing what Christians do, to somehow disprove the bible. It doesn't work that way. I can use anything to justify anything if I try hard enough, that doesn't make it right.

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You have this conceptual construct of your religion that does not match reality.  I'll come back around to this in a summary at the bottom.

It matches the bible. Whether or not it matches mainstream Christianity is not my concern.

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8. The point stands.  The money your church uses for the social aspects should not be tax free.  I don't get credit for giving money to social clubs.

Yes you do. You get to deduct any charitable donation as long as you have a reciept.

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9. Death is real, but the afterlife has not been shown to be so.

Afterlife = what happens after life is over. The afterlife is real. Only it's specific details have yet to be proven.

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10. I do care what some do.  Even if your religion specific brand of theism was perfect, I would criticize the source material that the rest use.

Why? If we both use the same source material, then clearly one of us is not following it correctly. Blame the people, not the book. That's like trying a new diet, and bending it's rules whenever you feel like it because you lack the self-control to follow it to the letter, then saying the diet was ineffective because you're still fat. People do that all the time. lol

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11. You keep making flat assertions about the Bible.  "The goat herders were right because they were right, it says they were right in the book they wrote!".

Do you think belittling the bible does anything to prove it is invalid? All it does is to show me you lack the ability to respect other people's beliefs even when you don't agree with them.

I haven't said atheism is a bunch of silly nonsense, that only a fool would buy into, have I? Because I can be respectful even if I disagree. That's not morality, that just good manners.

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12. You can blaspheme any belief I have and I won't be offended.  One of the problems with religion is the expectation that it is somehow sacred.  It should be as open to mockery as political affiliation or which sports team you like, because all three are just opinions.

But I don't (as I just said) because I believe respect should be given whether it's deserved or not.

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13. I think it is education more than money, but being secure probably plays a role.  My pet theory is that the more a person knows about reality, the less they need a magic god to fill in the gaps.  That is just speculation on my part though.

There are plenty of well-educated people who believe in God, even the Christian God. How many thousands of years of discovery and learning will it take before God is completely ruled out as a possibility? It's not going to happen. The premise is false. There are those that do understand the complexity of nature, and attribute it to the glory of God.

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And you are right, if the world economy collapses there very well might be another revival.  I'd rather keep everyone fat, rich and safe.

Security doesn't come from money.

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14. sigh.  And the one truth just *happens* to be the truth you believe.  How convenient for you.  The thing that also gets me is you are willing to accept the revelation of the above goat herders.  So what about all the other primitive societies with creation myths, miracle claims and gods remarkably similar during those times?  If you are willing to accept the 'facts' stated by primitive cultures at face value, I don't see how you can separate the wheat from the chaff.  But again, you 'know' the truth, even though ever other theist who thinks you'll burn in hell also 'knows' the truth, and their reasoning is identical.

You make it sound as though I was just looking for some religion to believe in and Christianity happened to be the first I found. If it'd been Islam, then it would've been totally different for me. Wrong. With all that I've learned about other relgions, I still choose Christianity. As I go forward in my life every day, and experience good, bad, loss, gain, etc, I still choose Christianity. No one is holding a gun to my head. Heck, I'm not even an official member of any church. I could convert to whatever I want, whenever I want. I don't, because I still believe that the bible has the answers that no other relgion has. I believe Yahweh makes more sense as God than any god I've heard about. He gives salvation by grace, not works, and that makes sense. That is what I would expect from a benevolent God. He's not toying with us, like so many other gods. He genuinely loves all of us, and wants the best for us, if we will just get over our pride, and allow Him to do it.

Quote:
Ok, actual question: If I were a neutral observer, say an alien from Mars, and I got to earth and I had a Muslim, a couple flavors of Protestant,  a Catholic, a Mormon, a Zeus worshiper, a Sumerian, etc. in a room with me trying to convert me, how would I tell who was lying?  They all say they know the Truth (big T) and they all say the others are wrong.  They all point to old books.  None of them have physical evidence.  All of them claim that if I choose incorrectly I am doomed.  They all claim miracles, but seem to have lost the video tapes where their god's regrow a limb or raise a corpse.

That would never happen. But if it did, I don't have a good answer for that. But that doesn't prove that what I believe is wrong, just because I can't prove it to an alien. It doesn't work that way anyway. We don't go around as evangelists, trying to convince people that Jesus is the way to go with intellectual arguments about rationality. We share the gospel pure and simple. If they are ready to recieve it, they do. If they aren't ready to recieve it, we move on. Only God can prepare them for the gospel. He has to first convict them of their sins. No one can be saved unless they will first admit to themselves that they are a sinner. Because salvation is the cure to a sickness. If you don't realize you are sick, why would you even want a cure? You wouldn't.

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So what do I do?  That is the situation I find myself in daily.

Do you want to know the truth about the existence or non-existence of God? And if there is a God, do you want to know who He is? And if He has an interest in you personally, would you like to know why that is? If you really want the truth, even if it means having to admit you were wrong, then it's really easy. Just find a quiet place, somewhere you can go to be alone, and without distractions. And say either in your mind or aloud, "God, if You are real, I want to know for certain. If the bible has the answers about You, then show me that. If the Quran, then show me that. If there is no book that explains You, then show me that as well. I just want the truth about You, and I know that if You are real, You can and will prove it to me personally." And then just give it a little while. Just relax and wait. He may not do it right when you expect. He may wait to do it His way. But He will do it, if you truly want Him to. He will prove His existence to You personally. Why doesn't He come in the clouds with some miraculous display for all the earth to see and believe in Him? I don't know. But I know that He will do it on an individual level, to an individual person. He does that all the time. You just have to be open-minded, and desire the truth above all else.

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15. Actually, I can and do change my mind about what I believe.  I am wrong all the time.

That's good. It's very mature to admit when you're wrong.

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17. Actually, if you were plopped down in with some ancient Jews there is a good chance you would wind up dead.  Lord help you if you say you are gay, or pick up a stick on Sunday, because then they really would stone you to death.

And Jesus rebuked them for their legalism that you are referring to. They were wrong for that.

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18. The reason I think the Bible would change people is that they would find it so horrifying it would shake their faith.  The parts where God tells people to kill cities full of babies are the best.  Or the part where God hypnotizes an Egyptian leader and convinces him to get their first born killed.  Or how about the part where God gambles with the devil and murders an innocent mans family to score points in a ghost-pissing contest?  Or the part where God says you have to murder your gay neighbor.

God doesn't tell me to murder anyone. You are referring to an ancient law for an ancient civilization of which I am not a part. Did the God I believe in write that law? Yes. Can I explain certain parts of it? No. Do I need to to prove that God is real? No.

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I don't think it is possible to mix Biblical literalism and modern morality without massive cognitive dissonance.

And I don't think it's possible to be a Christian and not believe the bible literally, aside from the parts that the context makes clear are not meant to be taken literally. Usually in those instances, there is an explanation following the allegory of what it meant in the literal sense.

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19. How do *you* choose what to believe in the Bible?  Clearly it is a choice since you don't believe what Christians believes even 100 years ago.

Who says Christians 100 years ago had it right, according to the bible? 

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Yahweh isn't selfish and tyrannical?  I don't even know what to say to that, clearly we have read different versions of the Bible.

What other God works so hard to give us every good thing imaginable? What other God put Himself through anguish for our benefit?

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The Bible is a living document that people adapt to their own beliefs.  Every generation says they know the true will of God even though generations past of future will hold contrary ideas and also say they know the true will of God.  Morality is a secular thing that theism always seems to be limping alone behind. 

So because people have different ideas about the bible, you use that as an excuse to discount it alltogether. That's convenient.

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In one hundred years most Christians will probably be making excuses for why homosexuality is actually OK, even though it clearly says it is not in the Bible.

BS. Christianity and homosexuality have both existed way longer than 100 years, and they have always been at odds. And you think that's gonna change in the next 100? Why?  

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You already see that in some denominations where they allow gay preachers and they can show you the verses that 'prove' it.

Please. I'd like to see those verses. 

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The same thing happened with blacks, the same thing happened with women.

Being black or female is not a sin, or a choice for that matter. How does that possibly compare with having sex with the same sex. 

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Some denominations still think a woman preacher is bad and they can show why the Bible says so, and you can say it isn't bad and show why the Bible says so.  Both of you are right within the context of the specific verses you quote.  But both of you can't really be right.

No, we can't be both right. But since I am not the one who is a female or a preacher, it's no skin off my back either way. If my pastor is wrong, that's between her and God. I don't think she is.

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Sexual morality is also changing.  My pet theory is because of birth control and abortion.

Sexual morality is changing for the same reason all morality is changing. People reject the absolute truth about morality, and so morality becomes a matter of personal preference.  

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The rules about sex are no longer needed, so they are starting to fade even while theism clings to tradition.  That too shall pass.

What rules? Don't you think some rules are good? Such as rules against pedaphilia, for example? Rules against rape?

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If you really believed the Bible you would be living like a traditional Jew.  You don't because you have the luxury of adapting the Bible to the society you exist in.

That is what you don't understand about the bible. Did the early churches in the bible live like traditional Jews? The churches that Jesus' disciples established? No, they didn't. So why should I? I'm not a Jew. I'm a Christian.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


mellestad
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I'm not spell checking this,

I'm not spell checking this, so you get to see how I reely spel.

Musicdude wrote:

mellestad wrote:

The quote tree is too big, I'm going to respond free-form, hopefully it does not get too confusing.  I'll number my responses for convenience, and my responses will be top to bottom according to your post.

1. If you were pre-ordained to be born in America, and that is a blessing, what did you do to deserve that?  Why would you be picked over someone born in a less Christian nation?  What 'you' was there before you were born anyway?

I never said being born in America is necessarily a blessing. Honestly I'm not sure it is, from a spiritual perspective. At best there are pros and cons. Being born in a wealthy nation is a lot like being born into a wealthy family, it's a blessing and a curse. But anyway, all I said was that it was no accident. I didn't say it was a blessing.


This is like the puddle saying, "isn't it amazing this hole fits me perfectly?"
Musicdude wrote:

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2. I understand that you can rationalize study of scripture, but some things just are not doable.  The verse I quoted is point blank: They thought Jesus was coming back within 40 years (probably lifespan).  He did not.  Ever since then, people think Jesus is coming back "soon".  Isn't two *thousand* years long enough to give up that idea?  He didn't come back for the black death or the world wars, why would it be soon?  Why would you believe you are living during the real soon (this time we really mean it!) and everyone else in history was wrong?  It just seems arrogant and short sighted to me.

And that is why I didn't give you a rationalization which I coud've easily produced. I said honestly that I don't know, and I'll look into it.


Well Let me know what you decide.  I am sure it will be interesting.
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3. I believe in many scientific ideas because they have a theoretical model that makes sense.  A miracle claim is a bald assertion: all you have is a statement of 'truth' without any evidence,

I'll buy no proof, but no evidence? Please. The bible is evidence. The fact that some goat-herder's voodoo religion is practiced and preached thousands of years later is evidence. If there was no truth to it, wouldn't it have died off at some point?


We've been over this already.  If that is your criteria for evidence you have to take every other claim with the same level of evidence into account.  You can't have it both ways.  If you can accept the miracles in the Bible because the Bible itself says they happened, the Bible says their were witnesses, and other people today believe the Bible is true...you are in a position where you cannot refute the claims of a Muslim.  You simply cannot.  You can't even refute the claims of a Mormon.  You are using the logical fallicy of special pleading to excuse the Bible.  Read some of the threads around here where people fight about the literal truth in the Bible, even the boring parts.
Musicdude wrote:

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nor any way to rationalize that claim with reality.  And you can pick on any particular bit of science you want, but here is the secret theists ignore: Science changes.  If science has something wrong, it fixes itself.  When science gets something wrong and then adapts, that is not science being broken, it is science doing what it is supposed to do!

And thus science may be wrong about the non-existence of God. Hopefully they will be big enough to admit their error, when it's revealed.

Only select few scientists will even consider a theory that might go along with the bible's claims.


Actually, if you do some research I think you will find that historians and archeologists have spent a great deal of time on the Bible.  The results have been mixed.  Some things really happened, and some things really didn't.  No-one says the Bible is totally wrong, but it is not infallible.  Go read some of the other threads, or do some research about the Jewish exodus, for example.
Musicdude wrote:

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If global warming turns out to be a scam (start a new thread with the science geeks if you want to debate that), science will move past it.  Theism claims to know Truth with a capital T.  Science claims to do the best it can to understand the reality in which humans find themselves.  Honestly when people compare theistic faith with scientific consensus it shows they don't understand what science actually *is*.

Do you not believe there is such a thing as absolute truth?


Not in the way most theists seem to.  When I say "capital T Truth" I mean the idea that an individual has been granted personal knowledge about the purpose of humanity and the universe.  I do not believe there is any purpose in life beyond what we give it.  Certainly there is real truth, but it isn't capitalized Smiling
Musicdude wrote:

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4. There was no global flood, science is in full agreement with that fact.  There, science and the Bible disagree.  So now what?  Was the flood just a story, made up?  Is science wrong and there really was a global flood that breaks the laws of reality, then vanished without leaving any traces?  Something else?

Science is in full agreement about nothing, that I've seen. There may be a consensus, but to say that "science is in full agreement" is a farse. What is the "law of reality" you are referring to? Never heard of that one.

Floods happen all the time.


Laws of reality = laws of the physical sciences.  I should have been more concise.  And you are right, there are scientists who are flood proponents.  They are also quacks.  There are also scientists who think all sorts of crazy things, but science is about consensus.

So your argument is, "Rivers flood all the time, therefor a flood that covers the earth in a mile of water is possible."?  We can start a whole thread about exactly why a flood of that magnitude is not possible, and why we can show one never happened.  We can also explain why flood 'evidence' is usually poo.

Musicdude wrote:

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5. Ok, *you* think the Bible encourages sex.  The 2,000 year history of the church makes it clear that it does not, except in specific circumstance (to breed more Christians).

I am concerned with what the bible teaches, not the traditions of the church.

1 Corinthians 7:4-5 (New International Version)
4The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and only for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

Is that clear enough, or is it just me?

In other words, a husband and wife should not deprive each other from their bodies.


So again, you are relying on your personal interpretation of the text, because you know the ultimate truth about reality because....you say you do.  Just like everyone else.
Musicdude wrote:

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I think you are confused about what I meant about thoughts and actions.  My issue is the Bible makes thinking about something bad as bad as commiting the act.  If I see a pretty girl walk buy and I have a flash of lust, that not equal to cheating on my wife.  The Bible says it is.  To me, that encourages guilt for no reason other than encouraging guilt.

No it doesn't say the act is equal. It says the penalty is equal.

In other words, if you say "I've never raped a woman, so I am a very good person," Jesus would reply "get off your high horse, because you've raped hundreds of women with your mind, and you are no less a sinner than the rapist."


And even if I accept that the Bible says the act is not equal to the thought of the act (you'll have to convince me, I was always taught they were equal.), that is still ridiculous BS.  "I've raped women with my mind" indeed.  Pardon me, but I am a better person that a rapist, because *I've never raped anyone*.  Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree about that one though.
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6. The beauty of Christianity is people can use it to justify violence or condemn violence.  God specifically ordered genocide in the OT.  Popes used the Bible to justify wars.  People ask Jesus Christ to bless them before they go into battle in modern war.  Right now there is probably a soldier asking God to help him kill some Arabs.  In all those situations those people believe in the same God you do, for the same reasons.  You say you are right and they are wrong, but you both have the same rule book to start with.  What happened?

So are you anti-war then? Is violence never necessary in your estimation? I wish violence were never necessary, but I live in the real world.


So you think God helps Christians kill non Christians?  Alright.  I guess that is another thing we can just agree to disagree on.  I fully agree, God likes it when the swords get wet.
Musicdude wrote:

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7. No, I am not equal to my boss.  Or a cop.  To say I am a naive.  You mean equal in some sort of spiritual sense, I mean equal in reality.  I think the idea that I can tell my wife to shut her mouth and if she doesn't God will punish her is...disgusting.  Christians, even recently, used the Bible to justify wife beating and slavery.  Women are subordinate to men, and patriarchal societies tend to beat women.  Black people are cursed by God because of the curse of Ham, so they are beneath other humans.  Leaders are more important than followers.  George Washington was more important than a nameless trooper who froze to death without firing a shot.

Is your life worth less than theirs because you are subordinate to them? If you believe that, you have self-esteem issues.

If a boss is extremely good at his job, but his employees aren't, the whole operation is going to fail. So they are equally important. Actually the vice-versa isn't always true though. If the employees are really good but the boss isn't, the operation can still succeed. So if anything, the followers are more important than the leaders. But really I would say they are equal.

As far as marriage goes, like I said, it's a two-way street. God didn't only give instruction to the wives. He gave instruction to the husbands too. A loving husband doesn't just tell his wife to shut her mouth, unless she is extremely out of line, in which case she probably isn't going to submit anyway. There you go again citing what Christians do, to somehow disprove the bible. It doesn't work that way. I can use anything to justify anything if I try hard enough, that doesn't make it right.


I'm starting to get queasy.  I hope my daughter never falls for a man who thinks he is superior because he was blessed with testicles by Jesus Christ.
I appreciate how you proved my point though, in your last sentance.  That is exactly my point, the Bible can be used to justify anything.
Musicdude wrote:

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You have this conceptual construct of your religion that does not match reality.  I'll come back around to this in a summary at the bottom.

It matches the bible. Whether or not it matches mainstream Christianity is not my concern.


See above.  It matches your version of the Bible, which funnily enough happens to match the cultural environment you are in.  Odd how that usually happens.
Musicdude wrote:

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8. The point stands.  The money your church uses for the social aspects should not be tax free.  I don't get credit for giving money to social clubs.

Yes you do. You get to deduct any charitable donation as long as you have a reciept.


You can get tax benefits for donating money to your church for new stained glass windows.  Praise Jesus.
Musicdude wrote:

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9. Death is real, but the afterlife has not been shown to be so.

Afterlife = what happens after life is over. The afterlife is real. Only it's specific details have yet to be proven.


We're eaten by worms?  Not something I care to focus on.  There is no reason to think anything cool happens after we die.
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10. I do care what some do.  Even if your religion specific brand of theism was perfect, I would criticize the source material that the rest use.

Why? If we both use the same source material, then clearly one of us is not following it correctly. Blame the people, not the book. That's like trying a new diet, and bending it's rules whenever you feel like it because you lack the self-control to follow it to the letter, then saying the diet was ineffective because you're still fat. People do that all the time. lol


You are not listening.  Why are you right?  They had the same things to work with and they came up with 'Truth' different from yours.  You all have the same egocentric view that you are right because you think you are.
Musicdude wrote:

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11. You keep making flat assertions about the Bible.  "The goat herders were right because they were right, it says they were right in the book they wrote!".

Do you think belittling the bible does anything to prove it is invalid? All it does is to show me you lack the ability to respect other people's beliefs even when you don't agree with them.

I haven't said atheism is a bunch of silly nonsense, that only a fool would buy into, have I? Because I can be respectful even if I disagree. That's not morality, that just good manners.


So you give full credibility to scientoligists?
Musicdude wrote:

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12. You can blaspheme any belief I have and I won't be offended.  One of the problems with religion is the expectation that it is somehow sacred.  It should be as open to mockery as political affiliation or which sports team you like, because all three are just opinions.

But I don't (as I just said) because I believe respect should be given whether it's deserved or not.


I will respect you, but I don't have to respect your belief in magic.
Musicdude wrote:

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13. I think it is education more than money, but being secure probably plays a role.  My pet theory is that the more a person knows about reality, the less they need a magic god to fill in the gaps.  That is just speculation on my part though.

There are plenty of well-educated people who believe in God, even the Christian God. How many thousands of years of discovery and learning will it take before God is completely ruled out as a possibility? It's not going to happen. The premise is false. There are those that do understand the complexity of nature, and attribute it to the glory of God.


Google education rate and god belief.
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And you are right, if the world economy collapses there very well might be another revival.  I'd rather keep everyone fat, rich and safe.

Security doesn't come from money.

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14. sigh.  And the one truth just *happens* to be the truth you believe.  How convenient for you.  The thing that also gets me is you are willing to accept the revelation of the above goat herders.  So what about all the other primitive societies with creation myths, miracle claims and gods remarkably similar during those times?  If you are willing to accept the 'facts' stated by primitive cultures at face value, I don't see how you can separate the wheat from the chaff.  But again, you 'know' the truth, even though ever other theist who thinks you'll burn in hell also 'knows' the truth, and their reasoning is identical.

You make it sound as though I was just looking for some religion to believe in and Christianity happened to be the first I found. If it'd been Islam, then it would've been totally different for me. Wrong. With all that I've learned about other relgions, I still choose Christianity. As I go forward in my life every day, and experience good, bad, loss, gain, etc, I still choose Christianity. No one is holding a gun to my head. Heck, I'm not even an official member of any church. I could convert to whatever I want, whenever I want. I don't, because I still believe that the bible has the answers that no other relgion has. I believe Yahweh makes more sense as God than any god I've heard about. He gives salvation by grace, not works, and that makes sense. That is what I would expect from a benevolent God. He's not toying with us, like so many other gods. He genuinely loves all of us, and wants the best for us, if we will just get over our pride, and allow Him to do it.


See below.
Musicdude wrote:

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Ok, actual question: If I were a neutral observer, say an alien from Mars, and I got to earth and I had a Muslim, a couple flavors of Protestant,  a Catholic, a Mormon, a Zeus worshiper, a Sumerian, etc. in a room with me trying to convert me, how would I tell who was lying?  They all say they know the Truth (big T) and they all say the others are wrong.  They all point to old books.  None of them have physical evidence.  All of them claim that if I choose incorrectly I am doomed.  They all claim miracles, but seem to have lost the video tapes where their god's regrow a limb or raise a corpse.

That would never happen. But if it did, I don't have a good answer for that. But that doesn't prove that what I believe is wrong, just because I can't prove it to an alien. It doesn't work that way anyway. We don't go around as evangelists, trying to convince people that Jesus is the way to go with intellectual arguments about rationality. We share the gospel pure and simple. If they are ready to recieve it, they do. If they aren't ready to recieve it, we move on. Only God can prepare them for the gospel. He has to first convict them of their sins. No one can be saved unless they will first admit to themselves that they are a sinner. Because salvation is the cure to a sickness. If you don't realize you are sick, why would you even want a cure? You wouldn't.


See below.
Musicdude wrote:

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So what do I do?  That is the situation I find myself in daily.

Do you want to know the truth about the existence or non-existence of God? And if there is a God, do you want to know who He is? And if He has an interest in you personally, would you like to know why that is? If you really want the truth, even if it means having to admit you were wrong, then it's really easy. Just find a quiet place, somewhere you can go to be alone, and without distractions. And say either in your mind or aloud, "God, if You are real, I want to know for certain. If the bible has the answers about You, then show me that. If the Quran, then show me that. If there is no book that explains You, then show me that as well. I just want the truth about You, and I know that if You are real, You can and will prove it to me personally." And then just give it a little while. Just relax and wait. He may not do it right when you expect. He may wait to do it His way. But He will do it, if you truly want Him to. He will prove His existence to You personally. Why doesn't He come in the clouds with some miraculous display for all the earth to see and believe in Him? I don't know. But I know that He will do it on an individual level, to an individual person. He does that all the time. You just have to be open-minded, and desire the truth above all else.

Ok, here is the "See below."

If you cannot make a rational case for your belief to a neutral observer, I think that says something rather cutting about the validity of your beliefs.  You are resting your 'soul' on something that you, by admission, cannot prove, or even show a single shred of evidence for.  I just don't get it.  You admit you cannot make a more convincing case than say, a Muslim.  But you still think you are 100% right and they are 100% wrong.  Your best case for convincing me is to have me sit under a tree and *want to believe*.  I don't "want" to believe anything, I want to sort fact from fiction.  You can't cinvince someone  you are right by making the decision dependent on wanting to believe you are right!

Musicdude wrote:


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15. Actually, I can and do change my mind about what I believe.  I am wrong all the time.

That's good. It's very mature to admit when you're wrong.

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17. Actually, if you were plopped down in with some ancient Jews there is a good chance you would wind up dead.  Lord help you if you say you are gay, or pick up a stick on Sunday, because then they really would stone you to death.

And Jesus rebuked them for their legalism that you are referring to. They were wrong for that.


So Jesus didn't tell people to respect the law?  He ate yummy pork?  These people disagree with you.  http://www.abcog.org/food.htm  But I forgot, you are right because you are right.
Musicdude wrote:

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18. The reason I think the Bible would change people is that they would find it so horrifying it would shake their faith.  The parts where God tells people to kill cities full of babies are the best.  Or the part where God hypnotizes an Egyptian leader and convinces him to get their first born killed.  Or how about the part where God gambles with the devil and murders an innocent mans family to score points in a ghost-pissing contest?  Or the part where God says you have to murder your gay neighbor.

God doesn't tell me to murder anyone. You are referring to an ancient law for an ancient civilization of which I am not a part. Did the God I believe in write that law? Yes. Can I explain certain parts of it? No. Do I need to to prove that God is real? No.


I guess I just don't understand how you can believe something that makes no sense you you.
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I don't think it is possible to mix Biblical literalism and modern morality without massive cognitive dissonance.

And I don't think it's possible to be a Christian and not believe the bible literally, aside from the parts that the context makes clear are not meant to be taken literally. Usually in those instances, there is an explanation following the allegory of what it meant in the literal sense.


Great.  Then God hates gays enough to want them dead, and the next time we invade a city we should probably kill all the babies, just to be safe.  Congratualations.
Musicdude wrote:

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19. How do *you* choose what to believe in the Bible?  Clearly it is a choice since you don't believe what Christians believes even 100 years ago.

Who says Christians 100 years ago had it right, according to the bible?


Sigh.  I guess we are just beating a dead horse at this point.
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Yahweh isn't selfish and tyrannical?  I don't even know what to say to that, clearly we have read different versions of the Bible.

What other God works so hard to give us every good thing imaginable? What other God put Himself through anguish for our benefit?


You mean why did he sacrifice himself to himself to make a loophole for a curse he laid on the humans he created because they followed the nature he gave them after he put a tree in a magic garden and told them not to touch it, but an evil snake that he also created tricked them into eating it anyway, so god damned their children to hell?

And pardon me, but commiting suicide doesn't have the same impact if you believe you will be raised from the dead in three days to live at the right hand of God.

Musicdude wrote:

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The Bible is a living document that people adapt to their own beliefs.  Every generation says they know the true will of God even though generations past of future will hold contrary ideas and also say they know the true will of God.  Morality is a secular thing that theism always seems to be limping alone behind.

So because people have different ideas about the bible, you use that as an excuse to discount it alltogether. That's convenient.


No, but when no proof exists and no consensus exists for a document that everyone claims is set in stone...come on dude, you think you know more about the Bible than the people did who wrote it.
Musicdude wrote:

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In one hundred years most Christians will probably be making excuses for why homosexuality is actually OK, even though it clearly says it is not in the Bible.

BS. Christianity and homosexuality have both existed way longer than 100 years, and they have always been at odds. And you think that's gonna change in the next 100? Why? 


Because our culture is changing, and religion always adapts to the culture it lives in.
Musicdude wrote:

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You already see that in some denominations where they allow gay preachers and they can show you the verses that 'prove' it.

Please. I'd like to see those verses.


http://www.operationrebirth.com/herndon3.html

Of course, they are *totally* wrong because they disagree with you.  Now you can pull out Bible quotes to show them they are wrong!  Lol.

Musicdude wrote:

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The same thing happened with blacks, the same thing happened with women.

Being black or female is not a sin, or a choice for that matter. How does that possibly compare with having sex with the same sex.


The curse of Eve and the curse of Ham.  Google it.  *you* don't think it is a sin, because your culture has adapted.  But again, all those other Christians didn't have the right voice of god whispering in their ear.  Poor bastards.
Musicdude wrote:

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Some denominations still think a woman preacher is bad and they can show why the Bible says so, and you can say it isn't bad and show why the Bible says so.  Both of you are right within the context of the specific verses you quote.  But both of you can't really be right.

No, we can't be both right. But since I am not the one who is a female or a preacher, it's no skin off my back either way. If my pastor is wrong, that's between her and God. I don't think she is.


Yes.  You don't think she is.
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Sexual morality is also changing.  My pet theory is because of birth control and abortion.

Sexual morality is changing for the same reason all morality is changing. People reject the absolute truth about morality, and so morality becomes a matter of personal preference.


Morality is a matter of personal preference, you have shown it to be so yourself when you cherry pick BIble passages to allow a woman to preach to you about god.  The apostles would be horrified.
Musicdude wrote:
 

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The rules about sex are no longer needed, so they are starting to fade even while theism clings to tradition.  That too shall pass.

What rules? Don't you think some rules are good? Such as rules against pedaphilia, for example? Rules against rape?


The Bible has laws about rape?  You'll have to get me a passage.
Some rules are good, but some are no longer applicable.
Musicdude wrote:

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If you really believed the Bible you would be living like a traditional Jew.  You don't because you have the luxury of adapting the Bible to the society you exist in.

That is what you don't understand about the bible. Did the early churches in the bible live like traditional Jews? The churches that Jesus' disciples established? No, they didn't. So why should I? I'm not a Jew. I'm a Christian.


Yes, I am pretty sure early Christians lived like Jews, because....they were Jews.  Jesus was a Jew!  If Jesus' life was without sin, then you should strive to live like Jesus.  Jesus lived, for the most part, like a Jew.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


Musicdude
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Wow. I really expected

Wow. I really expected better answers than what you just gave. That seemed like a half-hearted effort, especially compared to some of your previous posts. But let me address them anyway.

 

mellestad wrote:

This is like the puddle saying, "isn't it amazing this hole fits me perfectly?"

Cute analogy, but I don't see how it applies here. I believe that God has a purpose for my life, and He felt I could best serve that purpose right where I'm at. He may choose to relocate me later, but for now He is using me right here.

Quote:
We've been over this already.  If that is your criteria for evidence you have to take every other claim with the same level of evidence into account.  You can't have it both ways.  If you can accept the miracles in the Bible because the Bible itself says they happened, the Bible says their were witnesses, and other people today believe the Bible is true...you are in a position where you cannot refute the claims of a Muslim.  You simply cannot.  You can't even refute the claims of a Mormon.  You are using the logical fallicy of special pleading to excuse the Bible.  Read some of the threads around here where people fight about the literal truth in the Bible, even the boring parts.

What other religion is as old as Judaio-Christianity which is has as much influence on the world today? Which even comes close? And I'll tell you right now, that if you quote one that I'm not aware of that has the same or nearly the same crudentials, then I will say to you, that religion is worth checking out as well, just as much as Christianity is worth checking out. I never said that the proliferation of Christianity was proof of it's claims. I just said it's evidence that points to it having some truth.

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Actually, if you do some research I think you will find that historians and archeologists have spent a great deal of time on the Bible.  The results have been mixed.  Some things really happened, and some things really didn't.  No-one says the Bible is totally wrong, but it is not infallible.  Go read some of the other threads, or do some research about the Jewish exodus, for example.

The results mixed, sounds a lot better than the results unanimously against, to me.

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Not in the way most theists seem to.  When I say "capital T Truth" I mean the idea that an individual has been granted personal knowledge about the purpose of humanity and the universe.  I do not believe there is any purpose in life beyond what we give it.  Certainly there is real truth, but it isn't capitalized Smiling

What about morality. Do you believe that there is nothing that is just flat-out wrong, regardless of race, religion, or geography?

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Laws of reality = laws of the physical sciences.  I should have been more concise.  And you are right, there are scientists who are flood proponents.  They are also quacks.  There are also scientists who think all sorts of crazy things, but science is about consensus.

So your argument is, "Rivers flood all the time, therefor a flood that covers the earth in a mile of water is possible."?  We can start a whole thread about exactly why a flood of that magnitude is not possible, and why we can show one never happened.  We can also explain why flood 'evidence' is usually poo.

Usually? You're not helping your argument by being honest here.

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So again, you are relying on your personal interpretation of the text, because you know the ultimate truth about reality because....you say you do.  Just like everyone else.

Copout. I just read the words on the page. Do you get something else when you read it?

Quote:
And even if I accept that the Bible says the act is not equal to the thought of the act (you'll have to convince me, I was always taught they were equal.), that is still ridiculous BS.  "I've raped women with my mind" indeed.  Pardon me, but I am a better person that a rapist, because *I've never raped anyone*.  Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree about that one though.

The point is not about who is a worse sinner. The point is that if you sin less than anyone else on the face of this earth, you are still a sinner and thus you are not a "good" person in God's eyes. You can't be "good" in His eyes unless you are sin-free, or a price has been paid for your sins. Jesus' point about sexual lust, was to refute the idea that the pharisees were perfectly righteous in God's eyes, just because they never physically raped anyone. There were not righteous in God's eyes. Good is not a relative term to God. It's an absolute. There is no better or worse. There is only good and evil.

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So you think God helps Christians kill non Christians?  Alright.  I guess that is another thing we can just agree to disagree on.  I fully agree, God likes it when the swords get wet.

No, that's not what I said.

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I'm starting to get queasy.  I hope my daughter never falls for a man who thinks he is superior because he was blessed with testicles by Jesus Christ.
I appreciate how you proved my point though, in your last sentance.  That is exactly my point, the Bible can be used to justify anything.

The love/respect relationship between a husband and wife is a beautiful thing. If you are disguted by it, then it is clear that you don't understand it. It's not about opressing women, and any woman who has experienced it knows that. If you want to know what it's truly about, I would suggest this book. http://www.amazon.com/Love-Respect-Desires-Desperately-Needs/dp/1591451876/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268081607&sr=8-1

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You can get tax benefits for donating money to your church for new stained glass windows.  Praise Jesus.

And you can get tax deductions for financially supporting the reconstruction of Haiti. It's not biased toward relgion at all that I'm aware of, as you suggested. That's all I was saying. And we don't have stained glass.

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We're eaten by worms?  Not something I care to focus on.  There is no reason to think anything cool happens after we die.

Except that the majority of the world believes something does happen. But you are smarter than all of them right?

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You are not listening.  Why are you right?

In keeping with my diet analogy, I would say the reason I know I'm right is because it works. The proof of the pie is in the eating, and this one tastes pretty good to me. 

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They had the same things to work with and they came up with 'Truth' different from yours.  You all have the same egocentric view that you are right because you think you are.

You call me egotistical, and then you arrogantly assert that there is absolutely no reason to even ponder whether anything happens when you die, when most of the world disagrees with you.
No offense to you personally, but that irks me how these intellectual atheists act as though they are just looking at Christianity in the only logical way it can be viewed, as total rubbish, and the rest of the world just hasn't caught on yet. Talk about arrogant.

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So you give full credibility to scientoligists?

No, but I would not mock them in a debate.

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I will respect you, but I don't have to respect your belief in magic.

I do not believe in magic, and that remark proves that you don't respect me. That's exactly what I'm talking about.

Quote:
Google education rate and god belief.

I'll do that.

Quote:
Ok, here is the "See below."

If you cannot make a rational case for your belief to a neutral observer, I think that says something rather cutting about the validity of your beliefs.  You are resting your 'soul' on something that you, by admission, cannot prove, or even show a single shred of evidence for.  I just don't get it.  You admit you cannot make a more convincing case than say, a Muslim.  But you still think you are 100% right and they are 100% wrong.  Your best case for convincing me is to have me sit under a tree and *want to believe*.  I don't "want" to believe anything, I want to sort fact from fiction.  You can't cinvince someone  you are right by making the decision dependent on wanting to believe you are right!

God is not a theory to be proven. He will personally prove Himself to you, if you want to know the truth and you seek Him. Other than that, you will not find Him.

James 1:5-6 (New International Version)

5If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. 6But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.

 

Quote:
So Jesus didn't tell people to respect the law?  He ate yummy pork?  These people disagree with you.  http://www.abcog.org/food.htm  But I forgot, you are right because you are right.

I don't know if Jesus ate pork or not, but His disciples certainly did. Jesus performed miracles and healed people on the sabbath, which is not in keeping with the mosaic law. Jesus fulfilled the law. He was not subject to it. He gave us a new law. The law of love. Love God, and love our neighbors.

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Sigh.  I guess we are just beating a dead horse at this point.

Yes, we are, when you try to tell me I'm not a real Christian just because I don't necessarily believe the same way as Christians did 100 years ago. As if Christians were all in perfect unity about bible doctrine 100 years ago.

Quote:
You mean why did he sacrifice himself to himself to make a loophole for a curse he laid on the humans he created because they followed the nature he gave them after he put a tree in a magic garden and told them not to touch it, but an evil snake that he also created tricked them into eating it anyway, so god damned their children to hell?

If He was like most others, He would've condemned all of us, without even bothering to find a loophole. So my point about Him being a better more benevolent God than anything any other relgion has offered up, stands.

Quote:
And pardon me, but commiting suicide doesn't have the same impact if you believe you will be raised from the dead in three days to live at the right hand of God.

Coming in contact with sin was where the real suffering took place. His physical death was a necessary by-product.

Quote:
No, but when no proof exists and no consensus exists for a document that everyone claims is set in stone...come on dude, you think you know more about the Bible than the people did who wrote it.

I don't know. What are you claiming that I disagree on compared to the original authors?

Quote:
Because our culture is changing, and religion always adapts to the culture it lives in.

It's not changing in any way that hasn't happened many times before, and will happen again, and the bible hasn't changed yet.

Quote:
http://www.operationrebirth.com/herndon3.html

Of course, they are *totally* wrong because they disagree with you.  Now you can pull out Bible quotes to show them they are wrong!  Lol.

I would imagine if you actually read this site, you would even have to admit that their justification is a major stretch.

Quote:
The curse of Eve and the curse of Ham.  Google it.  *you* don't think it is a sin, because your culture has adapted.  But again, all those other Christians didn't have the right voice of god whispering in their ear.  Poor bastards.

I know what you are talking about without googling it. I respectfully disagree.

Quote:
Yes.  You don't think she is.

If I decide to have a sex-change operation and join the clergy, then I'll worry about it.

Quote:
Morality is a matter of personal preference, you have shown it to be so yourself when you cherry pick BIble passages to allow a woman to preach to you about god.  The apostles would be horrified.

Ok then what about when your personal preferences infringe on mine? Who is right and who is wrong?

Quote:
The Bible has laws about rape?  You'll have to get me a passage.

It's not a commandment, but it's certainly a principle which is easily shown.

Quote:
Some rules are good, but some are no longer applicable.

I know. I sure love pork chops. So did Paul. Smiling

Quote:

Yes, I am pretty sure early Christians lived like Jews, because....they were Jews.  Jesus was a Jew!  If Jesus' life was without sin, then you should strive to live like Jesus.  Jesus lived, for the most part, like a Jew.

They were not under the law anymore. The apostles taught them that. So, they did change the way they lived. For example, circumcision was not an option for law-age Jews. But Paul said, there is no difference between the circumcised and the uncircumcised. God was more concerned about their obedience and faith, than about the condition of their schmeckle. lol

 

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


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My effort was half hearted

My effort was half hearted because this is not the first go-around I have made the exact same points and I don't think you have addressed any of them.  We are stalled.  My arguments:

1. You're reason for belief is weak and subjective.  By your own definition (which is lackluster), Islam meets every single criteria for belief.  Actually, besides age, anything that makes people happy meets your definition if you discount your fondness for things > 1,000 years old.  Your arguments for belief are nothing but a series of logical fallacies, I really don't know how else I can say it.

2. Your method of deciphering the Bible is weak and subjective.  You can offer no reason why your opinion on the book is superior to those who disagree with you, even on central points that cannot coexist.

3. You believe the Bible is infallible, but only with your own caveats and even then your belief flies in the face of what we know about the world.  You raise it up as something more than your personal interpretation of a fallible book.

4. You think people deserve to be damned for sins they cannot avoid, and that God is somehow magnanimous for deeming to help us out of the jam he created.  Your last excuse was,  "God is great because he doesn't suck as much as some other gods."

5. You think women are beneath men, and your excuses are, frankly, weak and disturbing.  If this were 50 years ago you would replace "Woman" with "Black" and we'd be having the same stupid debate.  I don't get riled up about much, but the attitude of 'loving' (and patronizing) daddy knows best misogyny promoted by a patriarchal society is flat out disgusting.  It needs to die.  Thankfully, most liberal theists have abandoned it.

6. You think Jesus, the Apostles and Moses would all approve of how you are living your life.  If any of those people actually existed, man...I don't even know what to say.  Go find a rabbi and ask him what Moses would think of you.  They would know, right?

7. And finally you think you seem to think that churches should get tax breaks because part of the money they take in goes towards charity work.  Great, part of my money goes towards charity work, so that means all of my income should be tax free.  I would be fine if non-preaching charity work donated by churches was tax free.  But it needs to be separated.  Pastors salaries, church pews, buses for trips...those are not charity related.

 

Do you have anything better to address these points?  These are the same questions I have been asking since I got into this thread.  I hope you have something better than the bald assertions and circular arguments I have seen so far.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


Musicdude
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mellestad wrote:My effort

mellestad wrote:

My effort was half hearted because this is not the first go-around I have made the exact same points and I don't think you have addressed any of them.  We are stalled.  My arguments:

1. You're reason for belief is weak and subjective.  By your own definition (which is lackluster), Islam meets every single criteria for belief.  Actually, besides age, anything that makes people happy meets your definition if you discount your fondness for things > 1,000 years old.  Your arguments for belief are nothing but a series of logical fallacies, I really don't know how else I can say it.

2. Your method of deciphering the Bible is weak and subjective.  You can offer no reason why your opinion on the book is superior to those who disagree with you, even on central points that cannot coexist.

3. You believe the Bible is infallible, but only with your own caveats and even then your belief flies in the face of what we know about the world.  You raise it up as something more than your personal interpretation of a fallible book.

4. You think people deserve to be damned for sins they cannot avoid, and that God is somehow magnanimous for deeming to help us out of the jam he created.  Your last excuse was,  "God is great because he doesn't suck as much as some other gods."

5. You think women are beneath men, and your excuses are, frankly, weak and disturbing.  If this were 50 years ago you would replace "Woman" with "Black" and we'd be having the same stupid debate.  I don't get riled up about much, but the attitude of 'loving' (and patronizing) daddy knows best misogyny promoted by a patriarchal society is flat out disgusting.  It needs to die.  Thankfully, most liberal theists have abandoned it.

6. You think Jesus, the Apostles and Moses would all approve of how you are living your life.  If any of those people actually existed, man...I don't even know what to say.  Go find a rabbi and ask him what Moses would think of you.  They would know, right?

7. And finally you think you seem to think that churches should get tax breaks because part of the money they take in goes towards charity work.  Great, part of my money goes towards charity work, so that means all of my income should be tax free.  I would be fine if non-preaching charity work donated by churches was tax free.  But it needs to be separated.  Pastors salaries, church pews, buses for trips...those are not charity related.

 

Do you have anything better to address these points?  These are the same questions I have been asking since I got into this thread.  I hope you have something better than the bald assertions and circular arguments I have seen so far.

 

This is an unfair and inaccurate summation of our little discussion here. Anyone who reads it can see that.

 

Thanks for taking the time to discuss this with me.

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." 1Cor 1:18


mellestad
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Musicdude wrote:mellestad

Musicdude wrote:

mellestad wrote:

My effort was half hearted because this is not the first go-around I have made the exact same points and I don't think you have addressed any of them.  We are stalled.  My arguments:

1. You're reason for belief is weak and subjective.  By your own definition (which is lackluster), Islam meets every single criteria for belief.  Actually, besides age, anything that makes people happy meets your definition if you discount your fondness for things > 1,000 years old.  Your arguments for belief are nothing but a series of logical fallacies, I really don't know how else I can say it.

2. Your method of deciphering the Bible is weak and subjective.  You can offer no reason why your opinion on the book is superior to those who disagree with you, even on central points that cannot coexist.

3. You believe the Bible is infallible, but only with your own caveats and even then your belief flies in the face of what we know about the world.  You raise it up as something more than your personal interpretation of a fallible book.

4. You think people deserve to be damned for sins they cannot avoid, and that God is somehow magnanimous for deeming to help us out of the jam he created.  Your last excuse was,  "God is great because he doesn't suck as much as some other gods."

5. You think women are beneath men, and your excuses are, frankly, weak and disturbing.  If this were 50 years ago you would replace "Woman" with "Black" and we'd be having the same stupid debate.  I don't get riled up about much, but the attitude of 'loving' (and patronizing) daddy knows best misogyny promoted by a patriarchal society is flat out disgusting.  It needs to die.  Thankfully, most liberal theists have abandoned it.

6. You think Jesus, the Apostles and Moses would all approve of how you are living your life.  If any of those people actually existed, man...I don't even know what to say.  Go find a rabbi and ask him what Moses would think of you.  They would know, right?

7. And finally you think you seem to think that churches should get tax breaks because part of the money they take in goes towards charity work.  Great, part of my money goes towards charity work, so that means all of my income should be tax free.  I would be fine if non-preaching charity work donated by churches was tax free.  But it needs to be separated.  Pastors salaries, church pews, buses for trips...those are not charity related.

 

Do you have anything better to address these points?  These are the same questions I have been asking since I got into this thread.  I hope you have something better than the bald assertions and circular arguments I have seen so far.

 

This is an unfair and inaccurate summation of our little discussion here. Anyone who reads it can see that.

 

Thanks for taking the time to discuss this with me.

Almost everything I have written falls under one of those points, and most of those fall under 1-2-3.  I'm sorry you do not wish to continue the discussion.  Feel free to start it up again any time.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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The first question!

Hi everybody, I am new to this forum, and just glanced through the 85 questions, the first question (If Jesus fulfilled all the old testament prophecies why don't the Jews accept him?).

The answer to this question is somewhat complicated, he might have fulfilled some of the prophecies, but the most important one he totally missed out on. Jesus did not become the earthly ruler on this planet, and this is why the Jews do not accept him.

In the book of Isaiah it was written that his name would be Immanuel, and he would rule permanantly, in Revelations he will, should he come back; rule permanently.

There is however a catch in this book we call the bible, one you can read in the book of Matthew chapter 24 verse 23 to 28, and also in the book of John. Jesus never said he was coming back, he also never said he was the son of the God of the old testament, in John chapter 8 and also in chapter 10 he stated that this world did not know his father, he also stated in these chapters that this world have since the beginning worshipped the Devil, figuratively speaking, had he been the son of that very ruthless god/gods of the old testament, then who did he refer to when he said in chapter 10 (all who came before me were thieves, murderers and liars) from where I stand he said (all) and all means they who posed as god/gods. Surely he would not call his own father a thief, a murderer, or a liar. 

It might be stated in other parts of the old and new testament that he was indeed the son of that ruthless god, but why would he deny it, and why would he state that (they); the church people killed the prophets he sent from the beginning, referring to Abel who we only know as Cains brother and Zachariah who GOD gave the order in Zachariah chapter 13 verse  7 to 9 to kill in order for the Lord/GOD to scatter the sheep, ref; John chapter 10 verse 12 where the wolf scatters the sheep!! 

This man Jesus did not came here to assist religion, instead he came here to break it; remember he said; investigate ALL things and keep that which is good; good meaning that which makes sense, remember the (plot against Jesus) John chapter 11 verse 45 to 52 read it again with an open mind, not with a religious inclined attitude!

From (the history of freemasonry) a book published in 1805 one can find some very interesting answers explaining Caiaphas and James the brother of Jesus who after the death of Jesus became the new high priest, from my studies in the bible I have found that Jesus turned against his own, later I read the history of freemasonry and came to understand why.

One should perhaps instead of discrediting Jesus as part of the incredibly misleading Christian religion rather honour him for his efforts in trying to help us open our eyes and ears. He did not die for anybody's sins, he was killed and turned into a martyr to assist religion to keep their hold on the masses, Jesus opposed religion and were killed because he tried to tell the world that they have been led 'astray' by religion, SINCE THE BEGINNING. 

 

Truth is only that which we know in the moment, while you are reading this it might have changed already.


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 1. Because they were

 1. Because they were seeking a political leader to intiate the kingdom of God not a spiritual one. 


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Sapient wrote: Normal

Sapient wrote:

Normal 0

1. If Jesus fulfilled all the OT prophecies so well, why didn't the Jews recognize him as the messiah? - Francois Tremblay

 

Answer: (The Old Testament says that Jesus/Yeshua would be rejected by his own.)

 

2. If Gen 3:24 is true, why hasn't anyone found the Cherubim's and the " flaming sword which turned every way"?

 

Answer: (If the Garden of Eden was destroyed by Noah's flood, then there would be no need to guard it... hmm?)

 

3. It's been proven that modern humans originated from Africa. Yet, the Adam and Eve story claims the first Humans lived in a garden in Eden, near 4 rivers. (

Most of which no one can find). One of these rivers mentioned is the Euphrates, which runs through Iraq, Syria and a portion of Turkey. What's the truth?

Did man come out of Africa or near the Euphrates River? - The Infidel Guy

 

Answer:  (No, that is incorrect. You are making an assumption that humans started in Africa. Before the flood Africa didn't exist. The LORD God created Adam. Genesis 1:26, 27.  And Eve was created from Adam's Rib. And they were perfect in the eyes of the LORD.)

 

4. When the believer gets to Heaven, how can Heaven be utter bliss when people they love and care about are burning in Hell ? - The Infidel Guy - [Note: Some say God erases your memories of them, but if God erases your memory, you as Mr. Joe /Jane Smoe ceases to exist.]

 

Answer: (God created all and is in charge of what he has created. Therefore, He makes the rules since the Earth belongs to him. There will be no Sorrow, Pain, Sadness, Death... etc. And we shall only think of him and give him praise since he is the author of ALL LIFE!)

 

5. How can a God have emotions, i.e. jealousy, anger, sadness, love, etc., if he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent? Emotional states are reactionary for the most part. How can God react to us if he is all-knowing and has a divine plan? - IG [Note: Indeed, many religious texts display their gods this way . Listen to the An Emotional Godshow.]

 

Answer: (There is one truth and one truth only. God feels sadness, anger, hurt, regret, rejoices, judges, he feels like we feels. We are made in his image meaning We have his personality. Genesis 1:26, I Samuel 5:6,  Exodus 20,  John 14, Acts 9, Genesis 6. These shows the many personalities and of God. Made in His image we are.)

 

6. Why would God create a place such as hell to torture sinners forever when he foreknew who would disappoint him? - IG [Note: Some say you have a choice, but this misses the point. If God hates sin so much, why create Adam and Eve when he knew they'd sin? The only conclusion I can come up with, if Yahweh exists, is that he wanted sin to enter the world.]

 

Answer: (Those who reject the Son of man [JESUS/YESHUA] so will the LORD God reject and cast  into the Lake of Fire prepared for the Devil and his Angels.)

 

7. "God is all merciful," we hear quite often. Wouldn't it be more merciful of God to simply snap sinners out of existence rather than send them to hell? Or better yet, since he's all-knowing, not allow them to be born at all? - IG

ON GOD'S LOVE & HELL

1.) God's love is superlative.

2.) God's love of man exceeds man's love of self.

3.) Man's love of self prohibits torture.

4.) Considering God's greater love for us, Hell (eternal torture) is illogical.

 

Answer: (The Lord God gives man chances to repent, he Man doesn't repent, there will be a judgment.)

 

8. Muslims are supposed to pray 5 times a day towards Mecca. Each prayer includes a variety of ritualism and posturing. If a Muslim astronaut were to land on Mars. Prayer to Mecca would be ritualistically impossible due to the rotation of Earth and Mars. Are Muslims stuck here in Earth? IG [Note: Since this was first posted, a Muslim astronaut was faced with this very dilemma. The authoritative clergy informed him to pray as he normally would. I see this no where in the Koran. You see? Religions must change, or die out. It's interesting to note that, in the Koran, the moon is believed to be in the lowest Heaven, the level for those that barely made it to Heaven. Surah 71:15-16. One problem, no man can supposedly get to Heaven until they die. Yet, we've been to the moon. Our satellites beyond that.]

 

Answer: (Islam is a false religion. They pray to a rock! The Bible says: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." You are not to worship anything on the earth, in the heavens, under the earth or in the seas. Only the LORD God shall you serve. So, Islam is false religion and Allah and the LORD God is not the SAME God!)

 

9. Why haven't we seen God reattach severed heads, restore someone who was burned alive or regrow amputated limbs? Surely these would be miracles difficult to deny. - Adam Majors and IG [Note: The typical answer is that man doesn't dictate God's actions. The conundrum here however is that, if God wants us to "know" him, then surely feats such as those mentioned above would be happening all over the world. Until they do, I'll remain an atheist.]

 

Answer: (I'll ask your question with a question. Can you judge The LORD God? Can you condemn God? NO! Remember God created this world, you, and me. And we have to answer what he have done if WE Reject or Accept Him. No. No one can judge God. Judging God would prove fruitless and futile.)

 

10. Why does God entrust the spreading of 'His' word to sinners? Why doesn't he do it himself? - IG [Note: Surely God would have known that not everyone would be convinced by the reality[sic] of his Bible. If God loves us so much, we are all going to Heaven. If God knew that I would be an atheist, and he doesn't like atheists, he shouldn't have allowed me to come into existence. But he did. Therefore, I must be serving the will of God, for I exist. ]

 

Answer: (All have sinned and fallen short to the glory of God.)

 

11. In II Kings 2-23/24 we read about God sending 2 she-bears to attack children for calling the prophet Elisa bald, which he was, the bears killed 42 of the children. Was this a good thing to do? -- Brandon and IG[Note: I have heard some argue that the boys were a gang. So?! I didn't read anywhere in that passage where they laid a finger on the guy . Also, what kind of bears are these that can kill 42 kids? Super Bears? Surely the kids had to be running away.]

 

Answer: (Those who slander or attack the anointed of the LORD, shall receive judgment. Plus "Thou shalt not tempt the LORD thy God.&quotEye-wink

 

12. I have often heard from many believers that even Satan has a presence in the church, which is why even in church people can still have impure thoughts. If Satan can find his way in the church, how do Christians know that Satan didn't find his way into the Bible and twist the whole book? After all, men did vote on which books would make the Holy Bible. - The Infidel Guy

Answer: (Satan is the father of lies since it all started with him.)

 

13. Why did God allow Lot and his daughters to escape from Sodom and Gomorrah when he destroyed it only to later have Lot and his daughters engage in incestuous fornication. (Genesis 19:30-36) - Disillusioned [Note: To have intercourse with daddy dearest of course.]

 

Answer: (They were suddenly swept away from their home and Lot's daughters thought their family line would end with them. So, they had sex with their father. NOTE: Deformities were less known to happen in those days and would be outlawed by the time of Moses. It is more known to happen today if family members inter-marry.)

14. Genesis 1:28-29 shows that man and all the animals were first created herbivorous. Most young-earth Christians (ones that believes the earth is less than 10,000 years old) say that the fall of man resulted in carnivorous animals ( hence death of animals). So, why did God punish the animal kingdom, making animals kill and devour each other because of man's mistake? Or, if you're an old-earth Christian (one that accepts that animals existed on earth for billions of years before man came on the scene) then how come fossils show carnivorous animals existed before man? - http://www.caseagainstfaith.com/contact.htm.

 

Answer: (All goes back to sin in the Garden of Eden. Man chose to sin and disobey God and all creatures that breathe air are also subject for man's poor choices. That includes the judgment of the Global Flood of Noah caused by the LORD God.)

 

15. Many Christians believe that God is a thinking being, that he solves problems and makes a way for them when troubles come. Does God Think? If God is thinking, did he know his thoughts before he thought them? If so, again, where is his freewill and how is God thinking at all if everything seems to be one uncontrollable action/thoughts. - The Infidel Guy [Note: I'd say a God cannot think at all. To do so, would strip him of omniscience. Thinking is a temporal process.] ON GOD'S ATEMPORALITY

1.) God, an atemporal being, created the Universe.

2.) Creation is a temporal processes because X cannot cause Y to come into being unless X existed temporally prior to Y.

3.) If God existed prior to the creation of the Universe he is a temporal being.

4.) Since God is atemporal, God cannot be the creator the Universe.

[Note: I guess I should also note here that a timeless being would be without the proposition of past, and future. But to be omniscient, God must know the past and future. Hence a God that is atemporal and omniscient cannot logically exist. ]

 

Answer: (Did you create the Universe? Can you speak something from nothing? You or me don't have that ability. Only Yahweh Elohim (The LORD God) can do that. he is the author and creator of all things. If man thinks about his life for good or for worse, then the LORD God also thinks. We can't question or judge Him.)

16. I have often heard that faith is all that is necessary to believe in God and accept the Bible as true. If this is true aren't all supernatural beliefs true since they also require "faith"? - IG ON FAITH

1.) A prerequisite to believe in a Faith is faith.

2.) Having faith is all that is required to accept a Faith (belief) as true.

3.) All Faiths are true.

[Note: Of course all Faiths aren`t true, but this is the only logical conclusion that can be drawn from a person that states that, "Faith" is how one knows God.]

 

Answer: (If you walk on a bridge... don't you have faith that the bridge won't collapse? If you are on a jet, don't you trust your life in the hands of the Airline pilots? If you have to have surgery don't you place your life in the hands of surgeons? If you are in a building, don't you have faith that the building won't collapse or the floor won't give in? Faith in the simple things we take for granted isn't too different from putting faith in the LORD God who created you (if you chose to believe that or not.) "Ye of little faith!&quotEye-wink

17. Why didn't God just kill Adam and Eve after the Fall and start from scratch? Actually, if God is all-knowing wouldn't he know that man would need to be killed eventually anyway, (the biblical flood)? Why create Adam and Eve at all? - ALSCARLATA@aol.com and infidelguy@infidelguy.com ON THE GARDEN OF EDEN

1.) God is omniscient (all-knowing).

2.) God knew that before he created man that they would eat of the tree of knowledge.

3.) God placed the tree of knowledge in the Garden anyway.

4.) God wanted sin to enter the world.

[Note: If God didn`t want sin to enter the world, why create Adam and Eve at all? He knew what would happen. Why place the forbidden trees in the Garden in the first place?]

 

Answer: (God had a plan of salvation to save them from the evil clutches of sin and defeat Satan. If he started over, it would happen again since Satan would still exists.)

 

18. If a spirit is non-physical but the human body is physical, how does a spirit stay in our bodies? - IG ON SPIRITS

1.) Spirits are not physical entities.

2.) Brains are physical entities.

3.) Past experiences are stored in our physical brains, we call that, Memory..

4.) Injury can damage portions of the physical brain that store memory and can alter or erase memories completely.

5.) If human spirits exist... after death, spirits can have no memory.

[Note: Some will say the spirit stores physical memories as well, but if true, the spirit would have to be physical at least to a degree. How could a non-physical spirit store, physical memories?]

 

Answer: (When we die, are spirit dies. In old testament times, the souls of the old testament saints went to sleep. Today, the Christian saints believe: "To be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD.)

 

19. Does God know his own future decisions? If God is all-knowing he actually shouldn't have any decisions to make at all. Nor can he choose anything over something else. For that would mean that he is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. In fact, he can't even think if this is the case. Since he can't DO anything, he might as well not exist. - IG ON GOD'S IMMUTABILITY - Unchangingness

1. If God exists, then he is immutable.

2. If God exists, then he is the creator of the universe.

3. An immutable being cannot at one time have an intention and then at a later time not have that intention.

4. For any being to create anything, prior to the creation he must have had the intention to create it, but at a later time, after the creation, no longer have the intention to create it.

5. Thus, it is impossible for an immutable being to have created anything (from 3 and 4).

6. Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1, 2, and 5) - Theodore M. Drange

 

Answer: (Ask God and God will ask you lots of questions like he did Job. We can't judge God's actions. So, my advice ask God and I am sure he will speak to you somehow, maybe through his word the Bible.)

 

20. If God is all-knowing, how could he be disappointed in His creation? -- Pm453ca@aol.com [Note: Indeed, wouldn't God know that before the creation of our Universe what creatures would disappoint him? That being the case why create those creatures at all? Also, in knowing absolutely the behavior of humans before creation, God cannot be disappointed either... for this world is exactly as he has planned it to be. If it's not, why create us at all?]

 

Answer: (God was pleased when God created everything. God was disappointed when man sinned.)

 

21. God struck down the Tower of Babel angry at the intent of the people that built them, if this is the case, many of the great pyramids ( which are bigger than any ziggurat) around the world should be rubble also, yet many still stand today. Were not the Egyptians and many other ancient pyramid builders reaching toward God /The Heavens? - IG [Note: In actuality, many of the Pharaoh's believed that, via their pyramids, they would become God's themselves.]

 

Answer: Are you God? An atheist believes no god/God. But it takes more faith to believe that there is no god, so you therefore contradict yourself saying there is no god since there is no true atheist since you become a god of your small world/universe. So this is what the LORD God has forbidden. Exodus 20. Therefore you believe there is no god, so you automatically believe in no god and setup yourself as god since you claim the LORD God does not exist when he does. One day you will have to face him. What will you tell him, when he asks you: "Why did you reject my son Jesus?" That would be interesting, God is not like a judge on earth and there is no chance for appeal!)

 

22. In the watchmaker analogy, a watch is used to show us intelligent design and compares that to the Universe as evidence of design. We know watches are designed because we have past experience with watches, as well as with other man made objects. My question is: What Universe is the Intelligent Design proponent using to compare this Universe with to draw such an analogy? What God did he see create a Universe? - IG

 

Answer: (Man is ruled by time. God isn't. God created the universe so people and all life can have a personal relationship with Him.)

23. Why did God flood the earth to remove evil? It didn't work! Evil came right back, God should have known that would happen! So why did He bother? - PhineasBg [Note: A good example of how quickly sin returned, was Noah getting drunk just after they discovered land.]

 

Answer: The flood was a prime example of God's Judgment on man. I answered this previously. The other men, women, and children didn't heed the LORD God's warnings so the LORD God wiped them out. God had an ultimate plan of salvation and Noah's family had to be saved since no other man wasn't worthy of saving and God has the right to judge... DO You have a right to judge God? That would be interesting to see what happens when you try to judge God. Very futile indeed! No one can judge God!)

 

24. If the garden of Eden was a perfect paradise as xians claim, then why did Eve even want to eat the fruit? Wouldn't a perfect place provide everything a person would want or desire and thus she would want nothing? - keyser soze [Note: Why were the trees there in the first place? Of course they love to throw the serpent into the equation. But ummm..who let the serpent into the Garden?... and why would God create such a creature knowing he would cause man's fall? Hmm.. God must have wanted the fall to happen.]

 

Answer: (The devil tricked her by mixing truth with his filthy lies. Plus, she or Adam wasn't to touch or eat the fruit. When they ate of the fruit they were spiritually dead in God's eyes. And later they physically died.)

 

25. Why would an all-powerful god become flesh in order to sacrifice himself to himself so that his creation might escape the wrath of himself. Couldn't god, in his infinite wisdom, come up with something a little more efficient? - Omphaloskeptic2@aol.com ON THE BODY OF CHRIST

1.) God?s flesh was known as Jesus.

2.) Flesh cannot enter into Heaven (according to Paul)

3.) God is no longer Jesus.

4.) Jesus doesn?t exist.

 

Answer: (I will answer your question with one of my own. Are you God? What is that... you aren't... aww... God can become man to accomplish his mission and you can't become God? There is only one true God.... LORD God/Yahweh Elohim. He only you shall serve!)

 

(Note: Many at this point will state that the spirit lives on so therefore Jesus lives. This really depends on what you believe about Jesus. Is Jesus the son of God or God in flesh? If Jesus is merely the son there is no problem. However, if Jesus is God himself, we do. You see, Jesus is called Jesus because of the attribute of Flesh. If Jesus = God (who is spirit) then the entity known as Jesus ceases to exist. The flesh/body of Jesus, no longer exists and the spirit of God is still the unchanging spirit of God. No Jesus at that point. The Flesh, called Jesus, is dead.)

 

Answer: (Are you God or Jesus? Then you have no right to judge God or his motives. Jesus is the God/man meaning after Jesus went back to heaven he retains his flesh, be he now sits at the right hand of the father and He is the heir of God's kingdom and shall rule eternally.)

 

26. After 9/11 a lot of people have been tossing around " god bless america". Why do they keep saying this? From the looks of it god hasn't blessed anything. If god had blessed america, the 9/11 event would've never happened. Theists seem to give the answer of "everything is part of gods big plan". If everything is part of gods big plan, why are we after Bin Laden? Wasn't he and other terrorists just carrying out gods desired plan? So it seems that Bin Laden/ terrorism isnt our enemy, but god . - rsri13@hotmail.com [Note: Unfortunately many religious nuts believe they are fulfilling their God's plan by going to war.]

 

Answer: (Jesus said: "There shall be wars and rumors of wars.)

 

27. Christians say that God is NOT the author of confusion. Can you say, Tower of Babel? - The Screaming Monkeys

Answer: (Man is evil and does what he chooses like you do in believing there is no God!)

 

28. If Noah's flood supposedly covered the earth for a year, regardless of whether or not all the animals could fit on the ark, what the heck happened to all the plants? Can you imagine a cactus surviving under 4 miles of water for a year? I can't either! - Kyle Giblet [Note: With God all things are possible. Oh wait, except in Judges 1:19.]

 

Answer:  (When the fountains of the earth broke open. Everything. I mean everything upon the earth died. However, I believe that seeds of a lot of plants survived that is why we have plants today. You must be ignorant of the bible because nothing can survive a global flood. I wonder.... can you?)

 

29. The highest rainfall ever recorded in a 24 hour period was 47inches in the Reunion Islands in 1947 (during a severe tropical storm). To cover the whole earth to a depth of 5.6 miles, and cover the mountain tops (i.e. Mount Everest), it would need to rain at a rate of 372 (three hundred and seventy two) inches per hour, over the entire surface of the earth. Can rain fall at such an astronomical rate? Where did all the water come from?? Where did it all go to??? And would not the dynamics of the earth be so out of balance (tides etc.) that the earth would become so unstable that it would wobble off into outer space???? - Richmond1@btinternet.com

 

Answer: (Read the Hydroplate Theory. As the Bible states, there was no high mountains before the flood. Only small hills. God can do anything. I wonder... can you out do God?)

http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/IntheBeginningTOC.html

 

30. What do Muslim women get in Paradise? - IG [Note: Some Muslims I have interviewed about this say that Muslim women will get the same thing men get or equal value. Oh really? So Muslim women will get 72 virgin men? lol. If Muslim men get 72 virgins, where are all these virgin women coming from? What of their freewill? Is Allah creating these women to be slaves to the men in Paradise?]

 

Answer: (Islam isn't the true way to God. Jesus is. It is a false religion started by the master of rebellion, the master of lies... SATAN.)

 

31. In the "Last Days" Jesus is supposed to appear in the clouds. How are the Christians on the opposite end of the world going to see him? Are there going to be millions of Jesus'? What about people that work underground? What about people in deep space? - thequester73@hotmail.com

 

Answer: God can do anything. Have questions and doubts, then ask the LORD God. Maybe he will give you the real answer you have been seeking.)

 

32. The Bible says that God is a jealous God . How is this an example of a moral absolute of which man is supposed to follow? - IG ON GOD`S JEALOUSY

1.) "God is love." 1 John 4:8.

2.) "Love is not jealous." 1 Cor 13:4

3.) "I, the Lord thy God, am a jealous God." Exodus 20:5.

4.) The Christian god cannot logically exist.

(NOte: Basically love is NOT jealous, yet god is jealous, then God can`t be love. But if god IS love he cannot be jealous. Be he is.)

 

Answer: (Since God created you. You have no choice but follow his commandments and obey him only.)

 

33. A true Muslim man is not supposed to do anything that the prophet Muhammad didn't do. If one remembers there was a big debate over whether or not Muslims should eat Mangos. If this is true, why in the Hell were these Islamic Fundamentalists flying airplanes? - IG

Answer: (Satan has sifted them and has them in the palm of his hand. Islam is the false religion.)

 

34. If the earth was covered by a complete global flood, every living creature killed except those surviving on the ark, why are there many completely unique animal species in Australia that are found no where else indigenously on the earth? -

 

Answer: (All the animals after their kind was saved along with Noah and his family. The rest was saved as a reminder of what had happened. Plus what would power your car without oil hmm? Answer that one!)

 

35. If god is omniscient and " god is love," why would he allow a child to be conceived, knowing that that child would one day reject him and spend eternity burning in a lake of fire?- TiredTurkeyProd

 

Answer: (God would let people choose for themselves. Now forcing someone to love you... that wouldn't be love now would it. God didn't make robots or junk.)

 

36. Revelations is supposed to take place on Earth. What if we colonize the moon or Mars or inhabit a self-sustaining space station? Do we escape "judgement"? -- Ray Sommers [Note: No we don't Ray... and of course we all know that if there is any intelligent life out there besides us, they are all going to Hell too. ]

 

Answer: (Earth is under quarantine due to sin. I doubt the Moon or Mars would be colonize those places since man can't sort out his problems here on earth.)

 

37. Isaiah 40:28 says, "...the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is he weary?" If this is true, why did God rest on the seventh day?- IG

 

Answer: (When you need rest, don't you sleep? When you hurt or injured, don't you stop what you're doing to rest and recover? The Sabbath was made to benefit man and not man to benefit the Sabbath. We are to follow the LORD's example.)

 

38. Every time I go to a funeral the preacher and guests always say that " God " has called that person to Heaven or they say, " God said it was time to come home", or some such variation. If God is calling these people "home", why are we putting the murderers of these victims in prison? How can we punish a man or woman for doing God's will? - IG

 

 Answer: (Thou shalt not murder. Thou shalt not steal. Murdering is stealing a person's life. God gave the governments the right to rule over those of those countries. Only God is truly good. I doubt you are or myself included. Those who have served him (Christians), shall go to be with him.)

 

39. Does God have a gender? In most churches, God is predominately referred to as a "he"? - IG [Note: The Bible says God is male, but what does this mean? Does God have a penis? Does he have hormones that dictate his gender? ]

 

Answer: (Since we have pea sized brains and cannot understand God's ways. God chose to talk about in a way that we would understand... the masculine sense. Never is God referred as a "She." Never, he is always referred as a male, although God is genderless. But, God is our Eternal Father. And he loves you. So, why rebel against him? Hmm?)

 

40. Why can't we wait until we get to Heaven to worship God ? Why would it be too late? - IG

 

Answer: (if you are married... do you talk to your wife? If you have kids don't you talk to your kids? Praying is talking to God. Of course, He knows what your thoughts and intentions are! Hebrews 4:12)

 

41. What is the purpose of prayer? What can a finite being on Earth possibly tell an omnipotent, omniscient deity that he doesn't know already? - IG ON PRAYER

1.) Humans can?t change God?s mind for he has a divine plan and is unchangeable.

2.) Prayer can't change God's mind.

3.) Prayer doesn't change anything.

(Prayer may make you feel better emotionally, but it doesn`t change God`s mind.)

 

Answer: (We pray to God for His Will on all matters. Doesn't He knows what's best for us and what won't? Enoch and Noah walked with God, now why can't you?)

42. Some say Jesus was the all-knowing God. Jesus would have known then that when he died he'd be in heaven in less than 3 days to rule. If Jesus is alive and ruling today, what did he sacrifice? -- Cyndy Hammond

 

Answer: (Don't you read the scriptures regarding himself? He must die for our fool hardy ways. So, we can have a relationship with God.)

 

43. God knows that men are sinners, untrustworthy and evil, why does God leave it up to fallible man (clergy..etc) to teach others about his word? Why would he put our eternal souls at risk if he loves us so much? - The Infidel Guy and Danno778

 

Answer: (Just like Paul, All that preach God's Word is chosen vessels unto the LORD.

 

44. Did Adam have nipples? If so, how did he acquire them? In fact, why would God give "later man" nipples at all? They serve no purpose other than lactation. Some say pleasure. Where is that in Genesis exactly? All mammals have nipples as well, are theirs pleasureful for them too? Many men don't find their nipples pleasurable at all. - IG

 

Answer: (God made male and female to love other and reproduce, refill the earth and subdue it.)

 

45. How did Adam and Eve know it was wrong to disobey God if they hadn't eaten of the tree of knowledge (of good and evil) yet? You can't blame them if they didn't know. - IG

 

Answer: (They knew and chose to disobey God's command.)

 

46. If God has such a tremendous problem with uncircumcised penises, why did he make man with foreskin in the first place? - IG [Note: Some say, "So God can recognize his chosen people." Recognize? Is God so stupid that he has to physically look at men's penises? If not God, do other men need to? lol.]

 

Answer: (That old testament rite points to Jesus.)

 

47. Did Noah have fish onboard? Salt or Fresh? Since fresh water fish would die in salt, and salt water fish would die in fresh, only one type of fish would survive. Yet....?" - Frank Monaco

Answer: (The old testament account says only Land animals and those animals that were taken in the ark. Besides, I believe only fresh water fish existed before the flood. And there would be no need to take fish on the ark.)

 

48. Why does the omnipotent, omnipresent God need help from man or angels to spread his word or do acts? - IG [Note: Some say God doesn't need help. But apparently he does.] - IG

 

Answer: (Angels are God's Messengers most likely we can't stand to bare God's glory (Isaiah 6). Man also spreads God's message of redemption to other men.)

 

49. How did Jesus ascend to Heaven in the Flesh when Paul says that flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of Heaven? (1 Cor.15:50) - IG [Note: Some say, well Paul said that and not Jesus. Yet they quote Paul when it suits their purposes.]

 

Answer: (Jesus is the Triune God. Therefore Jesus is God and he can enter heaven and

when he entered heaven, he had his glorified body and not the one he died on the cross.)

 

50. If God wants us to live right and choose "the good," why did he create evil? (Isaiah 45:6,7) Not to mention he already knows which people are not going to choose "the good" so why create those people in the first place? It seems that many people are born to go to Hell. - IG ON HELL

1.) God is all-knowing.

2.) Before I was born God knew I wouldn?t believe in him.

3.) I was born to go to Hell.

(Sure you may say I have a choice, but I think I`ve proven already that I really don`t. I`m simply fulfilling the will of God by being an atheist aren`t I? If I`m not, I shouldn`t exist: For God would have known that before I was created that I wouldn`t believe in him.)

 

Answer: (God didn't create evil Satan did. Read Isaiah 14:12 and Ezekiel 28. Satan authored evil and is the master and ruler of it.)

 

51. I hear Christians all the time speaking of a spiritual war between Heaven and Hell, if this is true does God have limitations of power? Man only conducts wars because of our limitations of power and foresight. God has both all-power and all-knowledge, no reason for war of any kind. - IG

 

Answer: (Only God has unlimited power. Man is limited to is pea sized thinking. And cannot see what God see.)

 

52. The Bible is full of phrases beginning with, "and the lord saw". Didn't he know before hand? - IG

 

Answer: (The LORD God is all knowing and we shouldn't question his judgment.)

 

53. How can a psychologist condone belief in something not proven to exist, when people are put into mental institutions on a daily basis for the same thing? i.e. aliens, fairies, imaginary people (Multiple Personality Disorders..)? - Dan Denton [Note: I'm sure that some of the pious believe that they are improperly placed there as well Dan. ]

 

Answer: (Demons exist. Not E.T.'s. That is a delusion created by the devil.)

 

54. If Christians say they know God exists and that he will work miracles, what do they need faith for? Faith is not knowing. - IG

 

Answer: (That is what we are told to do, just like you practice.... 'There is no God!')

 

55. Brain, or shall I say, body transplants, will eventually be possible, where would the soul be then? Where is the soul? - IG

 

Answer: (I doubt brains will ever be transplanted. I don't think you get the concept of the soul. A soul is the person's essence. The soul goes back to who created it.... God.)

56. If God really wants us to know him, why doesn't he place the knowledge of him in our minds at birth? The same way many theists believe that God implants our sense of right and wrong in us a right birth. - IG

 

Answer: (He wants us to choose for ourselves. it's free will. Forcing someone to do what they want won't get no one to love you, right?)

 

57. If God was Jesus' father (not Joseph), then why is Jesus' family tree traced through Joseph? -- Cyndy Hammond

 

Answer: (Jesus has two family lines. The legal line through (Joseph) and the Royal Bloodline through Mary who bore him.)

 

58. What image of God was man made from? Couldn't have been a moral one or physical one. - IG [Note: One would suspect that an image of God would be perfect and cannot sin. Oops.]

 

Answer: The answer is in two parts. First, we are made to be like God's spirit being just and Good (Before man fell). Plus, man broke the relationship God when he chose to disobey. Secondly, for those who met my biological father and never seen me before and finally meets me. Thus, what Jesus says is true, 'If you have seen me, you have seen the father." basically we are made in God's image and I have my Biological Father's likeness.)

 

59. Why can't God appear before everyone at the same time? Everyone in the world would then "know" he exists and not have solely "believe". And please, don't say he already tried that. Surely a God knows exactly what to do to convince a measly human of his existence. - IG

 

Answer: (No one has seen God and his glory would most likely kill us. Isaiah 6)

 

60. According to the New Testament Matthew 5:17 says "Do not suppose that I have come to abolish the Law and the prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to complete. I tell you this: so long as heaven and earth endure, not a letter, not a stroke, will disappear from the Law until all that must happen has Happened." So since Jesus has not returned the "Law" is still in effect, so why aren't we still burning witches, stoning adulterers and disobedient children, killing homosexuals, ostracizing people that work on the Sabbath (nurses, doctors etc.), flinging blood onto the horns of the alter, pulling off the heads of small birds, and don't forget human sacrifice to God (Leviticus 27 P.28 )? -- Sheila L. Chambers

 

Answer: (Just because Jesus fulfilled his duties on earth, doesn't mean the Law has been abolished.)

 

61. If there is freewill in Heaven yet everyone has chosen good and is happy, isn't that proof that God could have made us with freewill, choosing good ( God ) and still being happy on Earth? - Dennis Hendrix [Note: In other words, evil didn't have to exist after all. Hey wait, even in Heaven apparently, evil can exist. At least for a short while. Satan became evil and was in heaven. Apparently he even had enough time to form an Army against God. Wow. Maybe Heaven won't be as peaceful as many believe.]

 

Answer: (It wouldn't be freewill he God forced us.)

 

62. Why does God have a plan? Man is limited in power so we make plans because we are not all-knowing nor all-powerful. If God has a plan, isn't he reduced to a mere finite being? - IG

 

Answer: (Man isn't perfect and God loves us and he was willing to send he son Jesus to die for us. Because, if we don't accept Jesus then our wages is death. That is what we earn if we reject the Son.)

 

63. How could the all-merciful/loving God watch billions of his children burn over and over again for eternity? - IG [Note: Of course this is geared to those that believe in a fiery hell. I am well aware that not all Christians believe in a fiery Hell.]

 

Answer: (God's Word is perfect and man's Word to God means nothing. Plus he won't remember sin or evildoers no more.)

 

64. Before reading and writing were invented (5000BC), on what basis did God use to judge the people who died before the Hebrew and Greek text (BIBLE) were written? -- agent2g@aol.com [Note: They are all roasting in Hell. ]

 

Answer: (God looked upon man's wicked ways and judge them. Genesis 6.)

 

65. Many Christians tell me that I will "burn in hell". If I have a soul, how can a soul burn? Aren't souls non-physical entities? - IG [Note: Some Christians groups believe that you will be given new bodies after judgment. However, if true, what's the significance of a spirit in the first place?]

 

Answer: (Every person gets eternal life. Those who choose God, dwells with God. Those who choose not God burns in hell.)

 

66. How can one hold to the barbaric belief that something has to DIE in order to appease a god for a bad deed? -- Nickolaus Wing [Note: Because an old book says so Nick.]

 

Answer: (Man is wicked and something must die for the sins of all men. So Jesus took our place. If we accept Jesus, then our debts are paid in full.)

 

67. Why does SIDS (Sudden Infant Death Syndrome) occur? Why would God allow a baby to live for such a short period of time? Why not just let them not be born in the first place? -- Terry Clark [Note: This actually happened to a friend of mine. Not even God himself could console her.]

 

Answer: (All souls belong to God. before you were formed in your mother's womb, he knew you. Jeremiah 1)

 

68. If Jesus was nailed and died on Friday evening, and walked out of the tomb on Sunday morning, where's the 3rd NIGHT he predicted? Per Matthew 12:40: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. -

 

Answer: (The Case For Christ by Lee Strobel, a former atheist answers this question. The Jews use a different system then what the secular world uses. it is always "Evening and Morning" like in Genesis.)

 

69. Many Christians claim that hell is merely existence outside of God ?s presence (C.S. Lewis among others). If this is the case, then Jesus could not have descended into hell (being God Himself). As a result, are you sure your sins are forgiven? - Byron Bultsma

 

Answer: (The hell you speak of doesn't exist. You speak of Hades were the saints of the Old testament went when they died. He went to liberate the old testament saints. The fiery hell doesn't exist yet.)

 

70. Ten to twenty percent of all women who discover they are pregnant suffer a miscarriage. Also, it is estimated that anywhere from 14 to 50 percent of all pregnancies end in miscarriage. Seeing this is all part of God 's plan, does this make God the world's number one abortion provider? - Jim

 

Answer: (Thou shalt not kill (Murder). if the baby dies due to miscarriage. The dead child can't remain in the womb can it?)

 

71. What if, when you get to Heaven, you saw God causing pain and suffering out of anger or for the purpose of entertaining himself. What if he required people in heaven to praise and worship him non-stop even to the point of causing his worshipers discomfort, pain and boredom. What if, when he was bored, angry, or jealous, he would create natural disasters to make himself feel better. Would you still follow him? - Fernando [Note: Of course they would Fernando, many people followed Hitler out of fear as well.]

 

Answer: (There will be no more pain or suffering.)

 

72. In Leviticus, the bible condemns homosexuality as an "abomination", giving some Christians a reason to hate, harass, torture and kill gays and even picket their funderals with " God hates fags" signs. In the same book of the bible the eating of shellfish is equally an "abomination". Are these Christians planning to go after the patrons of Red Lobster next? - buckcash@buckcash.com [Note: hee-hee, that's all I can say. Jewish Law states that eating Fish without scales is an abomination and thus the Shark is one among the list. However, sharks do have scales, Placoid scales, one of the many reasons why a shark is called a Fish .]

 

Answer: (Doesn't the LORD God knows what is healthy and what is not.)

 

73. Christians will tell you that if a baby dies it goes to heaven. Why then are they so against abortion? All the child is being deprived of is the opportunity to go to hell. Either that or god expects unborn fetuses to accept Jesus. - dissolvedego@satannet.org

 

Answer: (Adoption is better than abortion. All were created by God, so we return to whom created us.)

 

74. If one could prove to you incontrovertibly that Jesus and God were all human fabrications would still believe? And why? - LOGICnREASON [Note: If you say yes. Then you are not concerned with the truth, you simply WANT to believe; and if you WANT to believe, indeed, there is nothing anyone can tell you..]

 

Answer: (The LORD says: "My ways aren't your ways. Neither is God like us sinners and he hates sin but loves us and He cannot sin and is not able too!)

 

75. It is often said that God allows evil because one could not meaningfully appreciate good without experiencing its opposite. Why is it necessary to experience the opposite of something in order to appreciate it? Must I experience death in order to meaningfully appreciate life? -excidius

 

Answer: (Freewill. You don't want to serve someone who is going to force you right?)

 

76. Bible literalists want you to believe that God's Word in the Bible is meant to be taken literally. If this is the case, why was Jesus fond of explaining things in parable and metaphor? Was Jesus literally discussing the biology of mustard seeds, or was the mustard seed parable meant to be interpreted figuratively as faith? -excidius

 

Answer: (Let me answer you this. He trusted in God more in the parable of the widower? The old widow who gave 100% of all she had or the Rich people? So who loved God more? The widow who gave all she had or the rich person who only gave what he didn't need?)

 

77. Liberal Christians say some parts of the Bible are literally true, but much else is to be interpreted figuratively as allegory. How do you know which is which? What distinguishing criteria are used? How can you be certain "God" is a literal and not a figurative concept? -excidius

 

Answer: (Whould you say all the lies that Satan says to man goes for or against God's Word. Satan loves it when he can twist the truth with his lies.)

 

78. Consciousness is the result of a physical brain, how could God being metaphysical be said to be conscious or sentient without having a brain? - Mindless

 

Answer: (Like I said before. God isn't like us. We are limited in what we see and do. God knows and sees all.)

 

79. Considering how Leviticus is considered old law, and that Christians do not obey it anymore, why do they always use it to defend homosexuality being an "abomination"? -Bohorquez

 

Answer: (A man is to leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife. And they become one flesh. It isn't man and man or woman plus woman makes a baby. Do the math!)

 

 

80. If God is omnipotent and he has a plan ... then why did he not create the universe as it will be one second after the plan has succeeded? Who or what prevented him from doing that? - Timothy Campbell (http://www.tc123.com)

 

Answer: (God has one plan and sticks to it. We humans can't keep our promises. Are you God? You are an atheist so, therefore you believe there is no God so that contradicts your belief in being an atheist since an atheist believes there is no God and since it takes faith to believe there is no God. Your claims are false and you claim yourself God like the Egyptian Kings did.)

 

81. The large majority of people who have ever existed could not have learned of the Bible or Jesus Christ. And many people afterwards have found other religions or no religion at all to be more convincing, sometimes while being very virtuous. Do all these people really deserve eternal torment because of that? -- lpetrich

 

Answer: (All have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. If they knew about Jesus and reject him God will reject that person. The age of grace will soon pass away.)

 

82. The above arguments also apply among different sects of Christianity, many of which state that most others are not True Christianity. -- lpetrich

 

Answer: (Those Christian sects that doesn't believe Jesus is the true Son of God like Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons are cults.)

 

83. Is it reasonable for the Creator and Ruler of such a vast Universe to be preoccupied with the sexuality of a species living on a tiny little planet? -- lpetrich

 

Answer: (God said be fruitful and multiply. man and wife are posed to sexual relations to have children. All other ways is an abomination to God.)

 

84. If the Christian god was all loving and all knowing why did he let religious figures such as Mohammed or Gautama Budda be born, knowing that they would mislead people from the 'true' faith and trick the majority of the world's population into burning forever in hell (in fact, if Islam didn't start, most of the middle east would probably be Christian). It would simple to use the Holy Spirit to guide them to Jesus and spread the 'true' faith. If the Holy Spirit exits, it certainly isn't doing it's job!

 

Answer: (Forcing someone isn't the answer right? Give them a choice and let them decide for themselves. if they choose the right way, they be rewarded, if not they face the coming judgment.)

 

85. If one is obliged to follow all the teachings of the bible then why is engaging in homosexuality or adultery any worse than "suffering a witch to live", "muzzling the ox that treadeth the corn", "reaping the corners of thy field", "marring the corners of they beard", "plowing with an oxen and an ass", "hating thy brother in thy heart" or "eating frogs, shellfish and eels" ?

 

Answer: (Jesus said to Peter, Don't contradict God. What God has cleansed don't make unclean! God hates abominations of the earth because man's ways are evil.)

 

86. Exactly how did the alleged worldwide flood kill off all the world's sea creatures? How does one go about drowning a fish? -- Steever

 

Answer: (Most aquatic life survived the flood, however not all are spared due to man's wickedness.)

 

87. Why did this alleged god create humans as an animal form of life that gets sick and dies and experiences pain and has a limited mind when 'it' could have created humans as a form of pure energy or of some indestructible material or whatever, and was totally ?sinless? and had ?pure? thought? If a god was omnipotent 'it' could have easily have done this. --AI

 

Answer: (Man sinned and all die. Animals must suffer for man's poor choices.).

 

88. If a god is omnipotent how did 'it' fail to foresee that Satan would turn against 'it'? --AI

 

Answer: (God most likely already knew about Satan falling, and wanted him to chose for himself. Forcing someone to do something against their will isn't right. Wouldn't you agree?)

 

89. What is a god supposedly made of? --AI

 

Answer: (God isn't like us. He is immortal. He is holy, he is spirit, we can't see God because our ways are evil and we are sinners and he hates sin.)

 

I decided to answer all. I was bored and nothing to do. So, I found something to do with my idle time. I am new here. Jonathan is my name.

 


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Who09 wrote:4. When the

Who09 wrote:
4. When the believer gets to Heaven, how can Heaven be utter bliss when people they love and care about are burning in Hell ? - The Infidel Guy - [Note: Some say God erases your memories of them, but if God erases your memory, you as Mr. Joe /Jane Smoe ceases to exist.

Answer: (God created all and is in charge of what he has created. Therefore, He makes the rules since the Earth belongs to him. There will be no Sorrow, Pain, Sadness, Death... etc. And we shall only think of him and give him praise since he is the author of ALL LIFE!)

So, we'll know that our loved ones are in hell, but we won't care?  

 

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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You said this: "So, we'll

You said this:

 

"So, we'll know that our loved ones are in hell, but we won't care? "

Now let's say one of your loved ones Rejected the free gift that Jesus offered "Eternal Life" to those who accept him, then friend you won't have to worry about your loved one since they have made their choice. Why follow in the paths of sinners who rejected God's free gift? I would rather know Jesus than be lost without him. People think God is a angry God that doesn't care, but he does care and has given chances to men and women to change their lives. If they don't then he shall judge and he has that right since He created the World. If you have a bible read the psalms where King David talks to god about God's laws and how it guides him to a path of righteousness. i am sure we all have done things in our pasts that we regret so there is no time like to change for the better. Read Saul of Tarsus's story of conversion in Acts 9. Saul was a Pharisee and was "The chief of sinners." God choose him to be a light to the gentiles.


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Who09 wrote:Now let's say

Who09 wrote:
Now let's say one of your loved ones Rejected the free gift that Jesus offered "Eternal Life" to those who accept him, then friend you won't have to worry about your loved one since they have made their choice. Why follow in the paths of sinners who rejected God's free gift? I would rather know Jesus than be lost without him. People think God is a angry God that doesn't care, but he does care and has given chances to men and women to change their lives. If they don't then he shall judge and he has that right since He created the World. If you have a bible read the psalms where King David talks to god about God's laws and how it guides him to a path of righteousness. i am sure we all have done things in our pasts that we regret so there is no time like to change for the better. Read Saul of Tarsus's story of conversion in Acts 9. Saul was a Pharisee and was "The chief of sinners." God choose him to be a light to the gentiles.

Okay.

So...we'll know that they're in hell, but we won't care. Right, yes? 

 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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The 89 questions

Sapient wrote:
List of questions about God, religion and the supernatural have been compiled by IG over the years as well as some interesting ones by readers. 1. If Jesus fulfilled all the OT prophecies so well, why didn't the Jews recognize him as the messiah? - Francois Tremblay 2. If Gen 3:24 is true, why hasn't anyone found the Cherubims and the " flaming sword which turned every way"? 3. It's been proven that modern humans originated from Africa. Yet, the Adam and Eve story claims the first Humans lived in a garden in Eden, near 4 rivers. ( Most of which no one can find). One of these rivers mentioned is the Euphrates, which runs through Iraq, Syria and a portion of Turkey. What's the truth? Did man come out of Africa or near the Euphrates River? - The Infidel Guy 4. When the believer gets to Heaven, how can Heaven be utter bliss when people they love and care about are burning in Hell ? - The Infidel Guy - [Note: Some say God erases your memories of them, but if God erases your memory, you as Mr. Joe /Jane Smoe ceases to exist.] 5. How can a God have emotions, i.e. jealousy, anger, sadness, love, etc., if he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent? Emotional states are reactionary for the most part. How can God react to us if he is all-knowing and has a divine plan? - IG [Note: Indeed, many religious texts display their gods this way . Listen to the An Emotional Godshow.] 6. Why would God create a place such as hell to torture sinners forever when he foreknew who would disappoint him? - IG [Note: Some say you have a choice, but this misses the point. If God hates sin so much, why create Adam and Eve when he knew they'd sin? The only conclusion I can come up with, if Yaweh exists, is that he wanted sin to enter the world.] 7. "God is all merciful," we hear quite often. Wouldn't it be more merciful of God to simply snap sinners out of existence rather than send them to hell? Or better yet, since he's all-knowing, not allow them to be born at all? - IG ON GOD'S LOVE & HELL 1.) God's love is superlative. 2.) God's love of man exceeds man's love of self. 3.) Man's love of self prohibits torture. 4.) Considering God's greater love for us, Hell (eternal torture) is illogical. 8. Muslims are supposed to pray 5 times a day towards Mecca. Each prayer includes a variety of ritualism and posturing. If a muslim astronaut were to land on Mars. Prayer to Mecca would be ritualistically impossible due to the rotation of Earth and Mars. Are Muslims stuck here in Earth? IG [Note: Since this was first posted, a Muslim astronaut was faced with this very dilemma. The authoritative clergy informed him to pray as he normally would. I see this no where in the Koran. You see? Religions must change, or die out. It's interesting to note that, in the Koran, the moon is believed to be in the lowest Heaven, the level for those that barely made it to Heaven. Surah 71:15-16. One problem, no man can supposedly get to Heaven until they die. Yet, we've been to the moon. Our satellites beyond that.] 9. Why haven't we seen God reattach severed heads, restore someone who was burned alive or regrow amputated limbs? Surely these would be miracles difficult to deny. - Adam Majors and IG [Note: The typical answer is that man doesn't dictate God's actions. The conundrum here however is that, if God wants us to "know" him, then surely feats such as those mentioned above would be happening all over the world. Until they do, I'll remain an atheist.] 10. Why does God entrust the spreading of 'His' word to sinners? Why doesn't he do it himself? - IG [Note: Surely God would have known that not everyone would be convinced by the reality[sic] of his Bible. If God loves us so much, we are all going to Heaven. If God knew that I would be an atheist, and he doesn't like atheists, he shouldn't have allowed me to come into existence. But he did. Therefore, I must be serving the will of God, for I exist. Smiling] 11. In II Kings 2-23/24 we read about God sending 2 she-bears to attack children for calling the prophet Elisa bald, which he was, the bears killed 42 of the children. Was this a good thing to do? -- Brandon and IG[Note: I have heard some argue that the boys were a gang. So?! I didn't read anywhere in that passage where they laid a finger on the guy . Also, what kind of bears are these that can kill 42 kids? Super Bears? Surely the kids had to be running away.] 12. I have often heard from many believers that even Satan has a presence in the church, which is why even in church people can still have impure thoughts. If Satan can find his way in the church, how do Christians know that Satan didn't find his way into the Bible and twist the whole book? After all, men did vote on which books would make the Holy Bible. - The Infidel Guy 13. Why did God allow Lot and his daughters to escape from Sodom and Gomorra when he destroyed it only to later have Lot and his daughters engage in incestuous fornication. (Genesis 19:30-36) - Disillusioned [Note: To have intercourse with daddy dearest of course.] 14. Genesis 1:28-29 shows that man and all the animals were first created herbivorous. Most young-earth Christians (ones that believes the earth is less than 10,000 years old) say that the fall of man resulted in carnivorous animals ( hence death of animals). So, why did God punish the animal kingdom, making animals kill and devour each other because of man's mistake? Or, if you're an old-earth Christian (one that accepts that animals existed on earth for billions of years before man came on the scene) then how come fossils show carnivorous animals existed before man? - http://www.caseagainstfaith.com/contact.htm. 15. Many Christians believe that God is a thinking being, that he solves problems and makes a way for them when troubles come. Does God Think? If God is thinking, did he know his thoughts before he thought them? If so, again, where is his freewill and how is God thinking at all if everything seems to be one uncontrollable action/thoughts. - The Infidel Guy [Note: I'd say a God cannot think at all. To do so, would strip him of omniscience. Thinking is a temporal process.] ON GOD'S ATEMPORALITY 1.) God, an atemporal being, created the Universe. 2.) Creation is a temporal processes because X cannot cause Y to come into being unless X existed temporally prior to Y. 3.) If God existed prior to the creation of the Universe he is a temporal being. 4.) Since God is atemporal, God cannot be the creator the Universe. [Note: I guess I should also note here that a timeless being would be without the proposition of past, and future. But to be omniscient, God must know the past and future. Hence a God that is atemporal and omniscient cannot logically exist. Smiling] 16. I have often heard that faith is all that is neccessary to believe in God and accept the Bible as true. If this is true aren't all supernatural beliefs true since they also require "faith"? - IG ON FAITH 1.) A prerequisite to believe in a Faith is faith. 2.) Having faith is all that is required to accept a Faith (belief) as true. 3.) All Faiths are true. [Note: Of course all Faiths aren`t true, but this is the only logical conclusion that can be drawn from a person that states that, "Faith" is how one knows God.] 17. Why didn't God just kill Adam and Eve after the Fall and start from scratch? Actually, if God is all-knowing wouldn't he know that man would need to be killed eventually anyway, (the biblical flood)? Why create Adam and Eve at all? - ALSCARLATA@aol.com and infidelguy@infidelguy.com ON THE GARDEN OF EDEN 1.) God is omniscient (all-knowing). 2.) God knew that before he created man that they would eat of the tree of knowledge. 3.) God placed the tree of knowledge in the Garden anyway. 4.) God wanted sin to enter the world. [Note: If God didn`t want sin to enter the world, why create Adam and Eve at all? He knew what would happen. Why place the forbidden trees in the Garden in the first place?] 18. If a spirit is non-physical but the human body is physical, how does a spirit stay in our bodies? - IG ON SPIRITS 1.) Spirits are not physical entities. 2.) Brains are physical entities. 3.) Past experiences are stored in our physical brains, we call that, Memory.. 4.) Injury can damage portions of the physical brain that store memory and can alter or erase memories completely. 5.) If human spirits exist... after death, spirits can have no memory. [Note: Some will say the spirit stores physical memories as well, but if true, the spirit would have to be physical at least to a degree. How could a non-physical spirit store, physical memories?] 19. Does God know his own future decisions? If God is all-knowing he actually shouldn't have any decisions to make at all. Nor can he choose anything over something else. For that would mean that he is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. In fact, he can't even think if this is the case. Since he can't DO anything, he might as well not exist. - IG ON GOD'S IMMUTABILITY - Unchangingness 1. If God exists, then he is immutable. 2. If God exists, then he is the creator of the universe. 3. An immutable being cannot at one time have an intention and then at a later time not have that intention. 4. For any being to create anything, prior to the creation he must have had the intention to create it, but at a later time, after the creation, no longer have the intention to create it. 5. Thus, it is impossible for an immutable being to have created anything (from 3 and 4). 6. Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1, 2, and 5) - Theodore M. Drange 20. If God is all-knowing, how could he be disappointed in His creation? -- Pm453ca@aol.com [Note: Indeed, wouldn't God know that before the creation of our Universe what creatures would disappoint him? That being the case why create those creatures at all? Also, in knowing absolutely the behavior of humans before creation, God cannot be disappointed either... for this world is exactly as he has planned it to be. If it's not, why create us at all?] 21. God struck down the Tower of Babel angry at the intent of the people that built them, if this is the case, many of the great pyramids ( which are bigger than any ziggurat) around the world should be rubble also, yet many still stand today. Were not the Egyptians and many other ancient pyramid builders reaching toward God /The Heavens? - IG [Note: In actuality, many of the Pharaoh's believed that, via their pyramids, they would become God's themselves.] 22. In the watchmaker analogy, a watch is used to show us intelligent design and compares that to the Universe as evidence of design. We know watches are designed because we have past experience with watches, as well as with other man made objects. My question is: What Universe is the Intelligent Design proponent using to compare this Universe with to draw such an analogy? What God did he see create a Universe? - IG 23. Why did God flood the earth to remove evil? It didn't work! Evil came right back, God should have known that would happen! So why did He bother? - PhineasBg [Note: A good example of how quickly sin returned, was Noah getting drunk just after they discovered land.] 24. If the garden of Eden was a perfect paradise as xians claim, then why did Eve even want to eat the fruit? Wouldn't a perfect place provide everything a person would want or desire and thus she would want nothing? - keyser soze [Note: Why were the trees there in the first place? Of course they love to throw the serpent into the equation. But ummm..who let the serpent into the Garden?... and why would God create such a creature knowing he would cause man's fall? Hmm.. God must have wanted the fall to happen.] 25. Why would an all-powerful god become flesh in order to sacrifice himself to himself so that his creation might escape the wrath of himself. Couldn't god, in his infinite wisdom, come up with something a little more efficient? - Omphaloskeptic2@aol.com ON THE BODY OF CHRIST 1.) God?s flesh was known as Jesus. 2.) Flesh cannot enter into Heaven (according to Paul) 3.) God is no longer Jesus. 4.) Jesus doesn?t exist. (Note: Many at this point will state that the spirit lives on so therefore Jesus lives. This really depends on what you believe about Jesus. Is Jesus the son of God or God in flesh? If Jesus is merely the son there is no problem.However, if Jesus ?is? God himself, we do. You see, Jesus is called Jesus because of the attribute of Flesh. If Jesus = God (who is spirit) then the entity known as Jesus ceases to exist. The flesh/body of Jesus, no longer exists and the spirit of God is still the unchanging spirit of God. No Jesus at that point. The Flesh, called Jesus, is dead.) 26. After 9/11 a lot of people have been tossing around " god bless america". Why do they keep saying this? From the looks of it god hasn't blessed anything. If god had blessed america, the 9/11 event would've never happened. Theists seem to give the answer of "everything is part of gods big plan". If everything is part of gods big plan, why are we after Bin Laden? Wasn't he and other terrorists just carrying out gods desired plan? So it seems that Bin Laden/ terrorism isnt our enemy, but god . - rsri13@hotmail.com [Note: Unfortunately many religious nuts believe they are fulfilling their God's plan by going to war.] 27. Christians say that God is NOT the author of confusion. Can you say, Tower of Babel? - The Screaming Monkeys 28. If Noah's flood supposedly covered the earth for a year, regardless of whether or not all the animals could fit on the ark, what the heck happened to all the plants? Can you imagine a cactus surviving under 4 miles of water for a year? I can't either! - Kyle Giblet [Note: With God all things are possible. Oh wait, except in Judges 1:19.] 29. The highest rainfall ever recorded in a 24 hour period was 47inches in the Reunion Islands in 1947 (during a severe tropical storm). To cover the whole earth to a depth of 5.6 miles, and cover the mountain tops (i.e. Mount Everest), it would need to rain at a rate of 372 (three hundred and seventy two) inches per hour, over the entire surface of the earth. Can rain fall at such an astronomical rate? Where did all the water come from?? Where did it all go to??? And would not the dynamics of the earth be so out of balance (tides etc.) that the earth would become so unstable that it would wobble off into outer space???? - Richmond1@btinternet.com 30. What do Muslim women get in Paradise? - IG [Note: Some Muslims I have interviewed about this say that Muslim women will get the same thing men get or equal value. Smiling Oh really? So Muslim women will get 72 virgin men? lol. If Muslim men get 72 virgins, where are all these virgin women coming from? What of their freewill? Is Allah creating these women to be slaves to the men in Paradise?] 31. In the "Last Days" Jesus is supposed to appear in the clouds. How are the Christians on the opposite end of the world going to see him? Are there going to be millions of Jesus'? What about people that work underground? What about people in deep space? - thequester73@hotmail.com 32. The Bible says that God is a jealous God . How is this an example of a moral absolute of which man is supposed to follow? - IG ON GOD`S JEALOUSY 1.) "God is love." 1 John 4:8. 2.) "Love is not jealous." 1 Cor 13:4 3.) "I, the Lord thy God, am a jealous God." Exodus 20:5. 4.) The Christian god cannot logically exist. (NOte: Basically love is NOT jealous, yet god is jealous, then God can`t be love. But if god IS love he cannot be jealous. Be he is.) 33. A true Muslim man is not supposed to do anything that the prophet Muhammad didn't do. If one remembers there was a big debate over whether or not Muslims should eat Mangos. If this is true, why in the Hell were these Islamic Fundamentalists flying airplanes? - IG 34. If the earth was covered by a complete global flood, every living creature killed except those surviving on the ark, why are there many completely unique animal species in Australia that are found no where else indigenously on the earth? - mitch@mchsi.com 35. If god is omniscient and " god is love," why would he allow a child to be conceived, knowing that that child would one day reject him and spend eternity burning in a lake of fire?- TiredTurkeyProd 36. Revelations is supposed to take place on Earth. What if we colonize the moon or Mars or inhabit a self-sustaining space station? Do we escape "judgement"? -- Ray Sommers [Note: No we don't Ray... and of course we all know that if there is any intelligent life out there besides us, they are all going to Hell too. Eye-wink] 37. Isaiah 40:28 says, "...the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is he weary?" If this is true, why did God rest on the seventh day?- IG 38. Everytime I go to a funeral the preacher and guests always say that " God " has called that person to Heaven or they say, " God said it was time to come home", or some such variation. If God is calling these people "home", why are we putting the murderers of these victims in prison? How can we punish a man or woman for doing God's will? - IG 39. Does God have a gender? In most churches, God is predominately referred to as a "he"? - IG [Note: The Bible says God is male, but what does this mean? Does God have a penis? Does he have hormones that dictate his gender? Smiling] 40. Why can't we wait until we get to Heaven to worship God ? Why would it be too late? - IG 41. What is the purpose of prayer? What can a finite being on Earth possibly tell an omnipotent, omniscient deity that he doesn't know already? - IG ON PRAYER 1.) Humans can?t change God?s mind for he has a divine plan and is unchangeable. 2.) Prayer can't change God's mind. 3.) Prayer doesn't change anything. (Prayer may make you feel better emotionally, but it doesn`t change God`s mind.) 42. Some say Jesus was the all-knowing God. Jesus would have known then that when he died he'd be in heaven in less than 3 days to rule. If Jesus is alive and ruling today, what did he sacrifice? -- Cyndy Hammond 43. God knows that men are sinners, untrustworthy and evil, why does God leave it up to fallible man (clergy..etc) to teach others about his word? Why would he put our eternal souls at risk if he loves us so much? - The Infidel Guy and Danno778 44. Did Adam have nipples? If so, how did he acquire them? In fact, why would God give "later man" nipples at all? They serve no purpose other than lactation. Some say pleasure. Where is that in Genesis exactly? All mammals have nipples as well, are theirs pleasureful for them too? Many men don't find their nipples pleasurable at all. - IG 45. How did Adam and Eve know it was wrong to disobey God if they hadn't eaten of the tree of knowledge (of good and evil) yet? You can't blame them if they didn't know. - IG 46. If God has such a tremendous problem with uncircumcised penises, why did he make man with foreskin in the first place? - IG [Note: Some say, "So God can recognize his chosen people." Recognize? Is God so stupid that he has to physically look at men's penises? If not God, do other men need to? lol.] 47. Did Noah have fish onboard? Salt or Fresh? Since fresh water fish would die in salt, and salt water fish would die in fresh, only one type of fish would survive. Yet....?" - Frank Monaco 48. Why does the omnipotent, omnipresent God need help from man or angels to spread his word or do acts? - IG [Note: Some say God doesn't need help. But apparently he does.] - IG 49. How did Jesus ascend to Heaven in the Flesh when Paul says that flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of Heaven? (1 Cor.15:50) - IG [Note: Some say, well Paul said that and not Jesus. Yet they quote Paul when it suits there purposes.] 50. If God wants us to live right and choose "the good," why did he create evil? (Isaiah 45:6,7) Not to mention he already knows which people are not going to choose "the good" so why create those people in the first place? It seems that many people are born to go to Hell. - IG ON HELL 1.) God is all-knowing. 2.) Before I was born God knew I wouldn?t believe in him. 3.) I was born to go to Hell. (Sure you may say I have a choice, but I think I`ve proven already that I really don`t. I`m simply fulfilling the will of God by being an atheist aren`t I? If I`m not, I shouldn`t exist: For God would have known that before I was created that I wouldn`t believe in him.) 51. I hear Christians all the time speaking of a spiritual war between Heaven and Hell, if this is true does God have limitations of power? Man only conducts wars because of our limitations of power and foresight. God has both all-power and all-knowledge, no reason for war of any kind. - IG 52. The Bible is full of phrases beginning with, "and the lord saw". Didn't he know before hand? - IG 53. How can a psychologist condone belief in something not proven to exist, when people are put into mental institutions on a daily basis for the same thing? i.e. aliens, fairies, imaginary people (Multiple Personality Disorders..)? - Dan Denton [Note: I'm sure that some of the pious believe that they are improperly placed there as well Dan. Smiling] 54. If Christians say they know God exists and that he will work miracles, what do they need faith for? Faith is not knowing. - IG 55. Brain, or shall I say, body transplants, will eventually be possible, where would the soul be then? Where is the soul? - IG 56. If God really wants us to know him, why doesn't he place the knowledge of him in our minds at birth? The same way many theists believe that God implants our sense of right and wrong in us a right birth. - IG 57. If God was Jesus' father (not Joseph), then why is Jesus' family tree traced through Joseph? -- Cyndy Hammond 58. What image of God was man made from? Couldn't have been a moral one or physical one. - IG [Note: One would suspect that an image of God would be perfect and cannot sin. Oops.] 59. Why can't God appear before everyone at the same time? Everyone in the world would then "know" he exists and not have solely "believe". And please, don't say he already tried that. Surely a God knows exactly what to do to convince a measly human of his existence. - IG 60. According to the New Testament Matthew 5:17 says "Do not suppose that I have come to abolish the Law and the prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to complete. I tell you this: so long as heaven and earth endure, not a letter, not a stroke, will disappear from the Law until all that must happen has Happened." So since Jesus has not returned the "Law" is still in effect, so why aren't we still burning witches, stoning adulterers and disobedient children, killing homosexuals, ostracizing people that work on the Sabbath (nurses, doctors etc.), flinging blood onto the horns of the alter, pulling off the heads of small birds, and don't forget human sacrifice to God (Leviticus 27 P.28 )? -- Sheila L. Chambers 61. If there is freewill in Heaven yet everyone has chosen good and is happy, isn't that proof that God could have made us with freewill, choosing good ( God ) and still being happy on Earth? - Dennis Hendrix [Note: In other words, evil didn't have to exist after all. Hey wait, even in Heaven apparently, evil can exist. At least for a short while. Satan became evil and was in heaven. Apparently he even had enough time to form an Army against God. Wow. Maybe Heaven won't be as peaceful as many believe.] 62. Why does God have a plan? Man is limited in power so we make plans because we are not all-knowing nor all-powerful. If God has a plan, isn't he reduced to a mere finite being? - IG 63. How could the all-merciful/loving God watch billions of his children burn over and over again for eternity? - IG [Note: Of course this is geared to those that believe in a fiery hell. I am well aware that not all Christians believe in a fiery Hell.] 64. Before reading and writing were invented (5000BC), on what basis did God use to judge the people who died before the Hebrew and Greek text (BIBLE) were written? -- agent2g@aol.com [Note: They are all roasting in Hell. Smiling] 65. Many Christians tell me that I will "burn in hell". If I have a soul, how can a soul burn? Aren't souls non-physical entities? - IG [Note: Some Christians groups believe that you will be given new bodies after judgement. However, if true, what's the significance of a spirit in the first place?] 66. How can one hold to the barbaric belief that something has to DIE in order to appease a god for a bad deed? -- Nickolaus Wing [Note: Because an old book says so Nick.] 67. Why does SIDS (Sudden Infant Death Syndrome) occur? Why would God allow a baby to live for such a short period of time? Why not just let them not be born in the first place? -- Terry Clark [Note: This actually happened to a friend of mine. Not even God himself could console her.] 68. If Jesus was nailed and died on Friday evening, and walked out of the tomb on Sunday morning, where's the 3rd NIGHT he predicted? Per Matthew 12:40: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. - buckcash@buckcash.com 69. Many Christians claim that hell is merely existence outside of God ?s presence (C.S. Lewis among others). If this is the case, then Jesus could not have descended into hell (being God Himself). As a result, are you sure your sins are forgiven? - Byron Bultsma 70. Ten to twenty percent of all women who discover they are pregnant suffer a miscarriage. Also, it is estimated that anywhere from 14 to 50 percent of all pregnancies end in miscarriage. Seeing this is all part of God 's plan, does this make God the world's number one abortion provider? - Jim 71. What if, when you get to Heaven, you saw God causing pain and suffering out of anger or for the purpose of entertaining himself. What if he required people in heaven to praise and worship him non-stop even to the point of causing his worshipers discomfort, pain and boredom. What if, when he was bored, angry, or jealous, he would create natural disasters to make himself feel better. Would you still follow him? - Fernando [Note: Of course they would Fernando, many people followed Hitler out of fear as well.] 72. In Leviticus, the bible condemns homosexuality as an "abomination", giving some Christians a reason to hate, harass, torture and kill gays and even picket their funderals with " God hates fags" signs. In the same book of the bible the eating of shellfish is equally an "abomination". Are these Christians planning to go after the patrons of Red Lobster next? - buckcash@buckcash.com [Note: hee-hee, that's all I can say. Jewish Law states that eating Fish without scales is an abomination and thus the Shark is one among the list. However, sharks do have scales, Placoid scales, one of the many reasons why a shark is called a Fish .] 73. Christians will tell you that if a baby dies it goes to heaven. Why then are they so against abortion? All the child is being deprived of is the opportunity to go to hell. Either that or god expects unborn fetuses to accept Jesus. - dissolvedego@satannet.org 74. If one could prove to you incontrovertibly that Jesus and God were all human fabrications would still believe? And why? - LOGICnREASON [Note: If you say yes. Then you are not concerned with the truth, you simply WANT to believe; and if you WANT to believe, indeed, there is nothing anyone can tell you..] 75. It is often said that God allows evil because one could not meaningfully appreciate good without experiencing its opposite. Why is it necessary to experience the opposite of something in order to appreciate it? Must I experience death in order to meaningfully appreciate life? -excidius 76. Bible literalists want you to believe that God's Word in the Bible is meant to be taken literally. If this is the case, why was Jesus fond of explaining things in parable and metaphor? Was Jesus literally discussing the biology of mustard seeds, or was the mustard seed parable meant to be interpreted figuratively as faith? -excidius 77. Liberal Christians say some parts of the Bible are literally true, but much else is to be interpreted figuratively as allegory. How do you know which is which? What distinguishing criteria are used? How can you be certain "God" is a literal and not a figurative concept? -excidius 78. Consciousness is the result of a physical brain, how could God being metaphysical be said to be conscious or sentient without having a brain? - Mindless 79. Considering how Leviticus is considered old law, and that Christians do not obey it anymore, why do they always use it to defend homosexuality being an "abomination"? -Bohorquez 80. If God is omnipotent and he has a plan ... then why did he not create the universe as it will be one second after the plan has succeeded? Who or what prevented him from doing that? - Timothy Campbell (http://www.tc123.com) 81. The large majority of people who have ever existed could not have learned of the Bible or Jesus Christ. And many people afterwards have found other religions or no religion at all to be more convincing, sometimes while being very virtuous. Do all these people really deserve eternal torment because of that? -- lpetrich 82. The above arguments also apply among different sects of Christianity, many of which state that most others are not True Christianity. -- lpetrich 83. Is it reasonable for the Creator and Ruler of such a vast Universe to be preoccupied with the sexuality of a species living on a tiny little planet? -- lpetrich 84. If the Christian god was all loving and all knowing why did he let religious figures such as Mohammed or Gautama Budda be born, knowing that they would mislead people from the 'true' faith and trick the majority of the world's population into burning forever in hell (in fact, if Islam didn't start, most of the middle east would probably be Christian). It would simple to use the Holy Spirit to guide them to Jesus and spread the 'true' faith. If the Holy Spirit exits, it certainly isn't doing it's job! 85. If one is obliged to follow all the teachings of the bible then why is engaging in homosexuality or adultery any worse than "suffering a witch to live", "muzzling the ox that treadeth the corn", "reaping the corners of thy field", "marring the corners of they beard", "plowing with an oxen and an ass", "hating thy brother in thy heart" or "eating frogs, shellfish and eels" ? 86. Exactly how did the alleged worldwide flood kill off all the world's sea creatures? How does one go about drowning a fish? -- Steever 87. Why did this alleged god create humans as an animal form of life that gets sick and dies and experiences pain and has a limited mind when 'it' could have created humans as a form of pure energy or of some indestructible material or whatever, and was totally ?sinless? and had ?pure? thought? If a god was omnipotent 'it' could have easily have done this. --AI 88. If a god is omnipotent how did 'it' fail to foresee that Satan would turn against 'it'? --AI 89. What is a god supposedly made of? --AI This list was compiled by the Infidel Guy with submissions from many members of the atheist community. PICK THE QUESTION YOU WANT TO ANSWER, AND POST IT HERE...

 

All of the above were written by men, people like us who tried with the efforts in the bible to subject others to their own will, or tried to assist the rulers of the time to install some sense of discipline amongst the masses.

We can try to determine by whom and what was originally said but we will most likely never know who started it all, unless we take the studies of Zachariah Sitchin more seriously, for which we will be attacked by Michael Heiser and D.M Murdock, alias Acharaya.s, Sitchen trying to find a logical explanation through the Sumerian tablets and Acharaya.s trying to prove everything ever written as religious as myth, and Heiser on the other end trying to disprove everything Sitchin ever wrote but in the process giving some credit now and again, which can lead to one very long and drawn out argument, or we can smply take what Jesus the man said; (investigate all things and keep that which is good), a much more acceptable, and logical path to follow.

 

Jesus were tied to religion by the compilers of the bible, the apostles words have been taken by the church as correct, but in this correctness some of the things stated by Jesus, the man who are worshipped as God are just ignored. A perfect example is Matthew chapter 24 verse 23 to 26 Jesus said he is not coming back, yet the church preach that he is; in Isaiah and again from Revelations, both the mentioned books were written by people with their own ideas stipulated in them but the church prefer to beleive those books above the words of the god they worship. This same man said that this world have been praying to the 'devil' since the beginning!

 

Should one look at the research done by Sitchin it seems that we were created through a cloning process by an alien specie, which correlates with the words we find in John chapter 8 an 10 when Jesus the man said "all who came before me" meaning those who posed as gods, "are thieves, murderers, and liars; what did they steel? Who did they kill? What did they lie about?

 

According to Sitchin they stole this planets gold to save their own, according to the bible the Israelites had to place the 'loot' they took from the nations they wiped off the face of the earth aside for the 'lord'. It seems this lord cannot 'create his own gold etc!

They murdered innocent nations to get their gold by using the Israelite nation as a tool to achieve this, and even killed some of the chosen nation themselves if they did not hand over the gold, (Joshua chapter 7 verse 16 to 26).

They lied to the people about who they were, convincing the people they were god, when in effect thay were just another specie from another planet, who climbed into this world in another way than Jesus did; he was born here, read John chapter 10. In this same chapter and also in chapter 8 of John Jesus called them liars, thieves and murderers, which is in correlation with Sitchins research.

You can also find many more facts regarding my statements here; http://www.authorhouse.com/bookstore/itemDetail.aspx?bookid=59758 or

http://www.lulu.com/content/2486291 or

http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/fsh/5417232

 

Walmul

 

 

 

Truth is only that which we know in the moment, while you are reading this it might have changed already.


chndlrjhnsn
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Who09 wrote:I decided to

Who09 wrote:

I decided to answer all. I was bored and nothing to do. So, I found something to do with my idle time. I am new here. Jonathan is my name.

I would rather you had answered just one of them well, than given a shitty answer to all 89 of them.


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artymarty wrote:I would like

artymarty wrote:
I would like to put forward a question to you. If it is so obvious that God does not exist, and there is no evidence or rational reason for believing in a God, why do people still believe?

I do not think it is obvious, per se. But, I do think that anyone who is clear thinking and open minded should eventually come to the conclusion of at least a lack of belief.

Anyways, you ask, why do people still believe. Well, why can't they? 

People don't just believe what is supported by the evidence. They believe what is comfortable. They believe what they want to believe. They believe what their culture tells them to believe. They believe what their parents believe. Etc. 

Case in point,

You wrote: "I fail to see how life can have any ultimate meaning in a naturalistic worldview.  Nor can I see much room for objective moral values.  But then that all seems insiginificant considering I see absolutely no room for free will in a naturalistic worldview.

No meaning, no morality, no free will.
I can't live a single day of my life without assuming that I, and those around me have those things."

So, your belief in God is at least partly based on you desire for ultimate meaning, absolute morality, and free will. That is entirely an appeal to consequences. None of those are rational reasons or evidence that God exists.

artymarty wrote:
Also, just briefly, some of your questions seem incomplete, like #52.
"Didn't God know beforehand?"  If I said "yes, therefor he also saw beforehand" I am not quite sure where the question was leading. What did I miss?  No need to answer that, I don't think it is going to make any difference.

I believe the point was that God does not need to go and look at things to know about them, as he is omniscient. The Bible sometimes implies that God doesn't know about things until he actually goes and observes it, especially in the Old Testament.

Perhaps one of the best examples is right at the beginning of Genesis, after Adam and Eve ate the fruit. He asks, "Where are you?" (Genesis 3:9) and "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from? (Genesis 3:11)

artymarty wrote:
I am curious though, do you feel that any of your questions have been answered in this forum?

Every single one of those questions has been answered by someone. Look at post number 728. Most of them have been answered many times. But, only a very few of them have been answered with any adequacy, at least for me. 

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


alexross8
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1.  Matthew 13:57And they

1.  Matthew 13:57And they

were offended in him. But

Jesus said unto them, A

prophet is not without

honour, save in his own

country, and in his own

house.


2.  Genesis 3:24 states that

there are flaming swords

guaring Eden.
However , a flood happened

and the tree was mostlikely

destroyed or died.

3.You are incorrect.
Dna from modern bushmen

tribe of Africa (I think it's the

Bushmen tribe) shows that

they have genetic traits that
are similar to most modern

day races. It doesn't mean

that they are ancestors. it

just means that they are

descended from the ancestor

of all races. We descended

from the same ancestor , but

they kept the genes within

them , because they are the

least migrated people.
And as I have said before ,

eden was preflood . A global

flood could change 

drastically , everything.


4.  My guess is that he takes

our sadness away , so we

cannot ever be sad in

heaven.


5.  If God is a God of

interaction (He interacts with

us) , then his interaction

must have reactions to both

the being he is interacting

with and himself.
Remember , the scriptures

are written by men that have

heard the word of God.

Whether or not God is

emotional , the authors give

emotions to God (And even

objects) to show that he is

going to do something in

that character , and it

foreshadows the event that

takes place.

6.  God created mankind

with free will. Now with that

free will , Adam and Eve

could do anything they

wanted out of their own will.
And God put forth the

consequences of our actions.

He made it in our heart , the

commandments , through

conscience .
But it's not sin that makes us

go to hell . Realizing that we

do or will sin , and admitting

it to God , is the only way we

can be saved , and then to

turn away from sin.
Sure , there are many

atheists that admit their sin.
When you live believing that

there is no God , then you

are sinning by blaspheming.
By believing that there is no

God , continuously , then

that is not true repentence.
You have to know God to

repent.

7.  We are all sinners , and

God loves us enough to not

destroy us.

4part:  Our nature does not

like torture. To torture us for

eternity is not equal to our

crime , you may think.
In hell , sin is constant. We

live in constant sin from our

birth , because life is eternal

(Save one death) . When we

die , we continue to live ,

therefore continue to sin ,

even in hell.
His love is equal to his

justice. And his justice must

not be in contradiction with

his love .
You just created your own

God , when you limited him

with your "God Musts".

Creating a God and then

limiting him is not a way to

disprove a real God.

9.  According to Christianity ,

 faith is required for prayers

to be answered. Prayers are

required for one to be cured

of an ailment.
If you are an atheist , and

you have no faith , neither a

prayer , then how can

someone be healed ?
Remember , it is written that

you cannot put the lord thy

God to the test.

10: so sinners can repent

and go to heaven.
If God loves us so much , he

would allow us to go to

heaven. if he were all Holy ,

we'd be in trial first.

11.  It is God's gift that he

gave to Elijah.
God commanded him to give

a portion of his soul to a

successor , Elisha.
With gifts , we are freely

allowed to use. With rentals ,

we must pay the price for

problems.
God gave us the human

body , which we can use to

kill people with. It doesn't

mean that he wants us to

kill.
Elisha's gift is just like his

body except it extends his

power. He may have been

given the power to send

bears to attack youths , but

it doesn't mean that God

endorses it.

12:Epicurus set up a

philosophical scenario which

showed us that God cannot

exist if he is willing and is

able to prevent Evil ,

because evil still exists.
Socrates' quote "Evil is

ignorance" leads me to

believe that both Epicurus

and Socrates was right.
But God did prevent evil

(Ignorance).
There is no way for the bible

to be corrupted , or else we

are all ignorant , thus God

does not exist.
Assuming that satan has not

corrupted Christianity , then

our knowledge giving God is

believable.

13: He allowed Lot and his

family to escape because he

was the only reighteous in

the area.
God didn't even tell lot to

have his way with his

daughters. The daughters

thought that it was the end

of humanity , so they got

their father drunk and tried

to get pregnant by his seed

so his family line could

survive.

14.  It doesn't say anything

about the animals being

herbivorous .It was talking

about mankind. Regardless ,

they did eat plants though.
Lack of information doesn't

prove or disprove anything.
So I wouldn't know for sure.

15:  His knowledge comes

intantaneously. When there

is a problem to be solved ,

it's solved instantly.

4Part:  your implying physics

to a God that is beyond

comprehension. Worse , you

are limiting him by your

understanding of what he

sould be.

16.  A ball is required to play

basket ball , soccor , foot

ball , tennis , baseball , etc.
It doesn't mean that a guy

good at football is going to

be good at baseball.
Faith is how you know God ,

but it takes a certain ball to

play tennis , if you know

what I mean.

17.  to set an example that

non-God beings are different

from God. the second

question is impossible to

answer. Lack of information

doesn't prove or disprove

anything.
Further more , sin isn't from

just eating out of a tree or

breaking a rule. sin is

defiance. Even if they stayed

in the garden , there is a

100% possibility that they

would sin again , given the

chance.

18.  Spirits can have no

memory after death? When

memories are stored in the

brain , it doesn't exclude

them from being stored in

the spirit.
The spirit doesn't have to be

physical to capture

memories . It reflects the

physical. It doesn't have to

have direct contact.
I am a gnostic when it

comes to souls , so I enjoy

soul conversations.

19.  Every descision he has

ever made wasn't even a

descision.
It's isntantaneous

knowledge.

20.  Dissapointment is

another one of those

character forshadowings .
God knew how everything

would go down. as for the

reason for allowing the

creatures to exist , I don't

know. But like I say , lack of

knowledge is no reason to

prove something or disprove

something.

21. Tower of babel was

created out of an act of

blasphemy toward God. And

god showed them , and set

the example for us all.
It didn't say that God

wouldn't do it again , neither

did it say he was going to.

22.  I cannot see how this

relates.

23.  God's intents were to rid

the world of evil to set an

example for us , and to get

rid of the nephilim , which

were sons of angels and

women.

24.  Eve wanted to eat the

fruit because it was a fruit ,

or else God wouldn't have

made a garden of trees that

bear fruit.
Trees were placed their to

suit Adam and Eve's needs.
They couldn't die , but it

doesn't mean they couldn't

get hungry. Even if the

events in genesis didn't

happen , Adam and Eve

would still fall.

25.  What other efficient way

could he have done it?
He sets up the "Lamb

sacrificing" ritual , and many

other jewish rituals , so he

can prepare the way for his

coming onto Earth.
The Jewish rituals are

prophecies to Jesus' death

on the cross.
Flesh can enter heaven , but

one must die to stay in

heaven , because there is a

death to be required.
Jesus was sinless and didn't

have to pay the toll , but did

anyway for our sins to be

forgiven.

26.  God has blessed

America. He blessed them

with a surplus of food ,which

many Americans take for

granted.
He blessed them with

democracy , electricity ,

fertile lands , etc.
9/11 happened on the fault

of the people that take the

blessings for granted.

27: Confusion by language is

not a lie , but confusion by

untrue teachings is.

28.  frozen. Winds carry a lot

of power. It's obvious that

winds could cause lakes to

freeze (explaining freshwater

fish) . There is also the air

pressure to think about.
I can't imagine a cactus in

water , but plants can

survive in ice , so long as

their seed is preserved.

29.  Rain didn't have to fall

much. The land was basically

plateau-ish and probably had

many valleys.
All that pressure forced onto

the Earth must have made

the mountains and hills form

.


31.  Jesus will probably

make one appearance

(mostlikely in Israel). Even

though the whole world wont

see him , the whole world

(metaphorically) will

probably view it from a tv or

picture.

32.  I don't trust everything

paul says as biblical canon.
Regardless , jealosy in God's

view is just the want for

mankind to not worship false

Gods.

34.  Marsupials live in

indonesia too.
Either way , it was the plan

of God that animals should

go where a suitable habitat

awaits them. In this case ,

polarbears moved north ,

marsupials to australia ,

pandas to china , etc.
My brother studies the

environment. Did you know

that if you take out one

animal from an environment

, that the whole environment

collapses? it's amazing.

Animal habitual order is a

"MUST" for postflood life .

35.  It's the child's right to

do whatever it wants after it

is given freewill.

36.  I doubt we will be on

the moon , mars , or any

other planet at the time.

37.  to set example. resting

is synonomous (in this

context) to doing nothing.
So resting , in this context ,

has nothing to do with

weariness.

38.  I don't normally say it

was their time to go home ,

unless they died by natural

cause.

39.  In the Hebrew ,

everything "it" is mostlikely

referred to he or him.
In English , it's for simplicity

sake. But there is a reason

for it.
When God spoke to Moses ,

he said that he is what he is

, and that moses should call

him what he is.
Instead of giving God a

name , we call God "God" for

that very same reason.
In terms of what he is , he is

anatomically male in

concept.
He created us and didn't give

birth to anything , so that

gives him the attribute of

male. He didn't receive seed

from Mary (if that were

possible) , but rather , he

gave seed to mary for her to

be pregnant.

40.  It's too late because life

is a test.
It's not a test by God , but

rather a test by us and for us

to show us our faith at

judgement day . He knows

who is going to hell , and

who isn't. But he wants us to

at least live our life , so he

can be fair in his justice ,

and so we can't say that he

didn't give us a chance to

live. He obviously gave us a

life to live , so we don't nag

about being sent to hell

before being born.

41.  He knows everything.

Prayer is about asking , not

telling.
God's plan doesn't have to

involve simple things like

grandmothers getting better.
he can do things like that

through prayer , but not big

things like giving someone

the ability to fly.
praying for rain or health

isn't going to change God's

overall plan.

42.  He sacrificed himself for

our sins.

43.  Clergy/ministers/gurus

do not teach us the word of

God. But rather , the bible

teaches us the word of God.

With the help of church

leaders , we can understand

the word of the bible and can

preach it.

44.  God made the women

after the man , in his image.
If Adam didn't have nipples

,God would have created a

nippless Eve , therefore

children wouldn't be able to

survive.

45.  They didn't know if it

was wrong to kill or steal.

That information hadn't been

given to them. But God told

them that they aren't

allowed to eat of the tree ,

and they did understand.
It only became their

knowledge when God first

told them. So yea , they did

know.

46.  To show who actually

has faith in God that they

would cut off their own

foreskins . Besides , it

helped for the "Jew"

recognization back then , so

the daughters of Abraham

knew who to marry.

47. As I said up there , fresh

water was frozen (or atleast

the surface of the water)

after the wind and air

pressure made the

temperature low.

48.  God would be then

revealing himself to

everybody which would

make people believe in him

only because they see. But

faith doesn't come from

seeing , but comes from

believing and trusting. Faith

is love.

49. I don't even read Paul's

works , because it's hardly

canon.Jesus appointed 12

apostles , and paul wasn't

one of them.
I base my beliefs around the

teachings of Jesus.

He didn't create evil. Our

defiance creates it. And his

love gives us freewill. And

through free will , we can

deny his commands.

50. You think that your life is

predetermined?
If I knew how a baseball

game would go down , does

it take away the player's

freewill?
If I know your favorite color ,

does that make your choice

predetermined, and does

that make your freewill

absent?
You weren't born to go to

hell. You weren't born to

choose your favorite color.

You were just born , and

that's it. You have total free

will.

51.  I don't know where you

heard that from. There is a

holy war though , and Jesus

gave us our swords to fight

(Metaphorical).
( he didn't actually give us

all swords). Our swords are

our faith.

52.  Yes.  At the present

time , Gods had seen me.

God saw you. He knew

before hand.

53. Seeing is knowing.

Believing is not seeing.
When someone claims that

there is imaginary people

everywhere , then he/she is

mental. But when someone

claims to believe in

something they do not claim

to see , they should not be

called mental or insane.
Edison believed he could

create a lightbulb before he

seen it happen.

54. I am a gnostic theist ,

which means I know God

exists. But I have faith in the

God of the bible. Knowing

and trusting are different.

55. If you have your brain

transplanted for another

brain , where are you if the

old brain goes to a new

body?
Soul is the essence of being.
You believe that the self is

part of the brain. If it's

possible for you to doubt the

brain in matters of what you

see , then why is it

impossible to doubt the self?

If self is part of the brain , it

can be doubted. But it's not

doubted , because it's the

only thing we know for sure.

We exist , and thats a fact

we cannot doubt. That

makes the brain part of the

self , rather than the self

part of the brain.

56. When we are born , we

are born seeking answers.

Even morality isn't available

until sought after as a child

or infant.

57. That's Jesus' birthright

and inheritance. He can

trace all the way back to

kingdavid and claim the

throne of Israel. It wouldn't

matter if it wasn't his real

father or not.

58.  It was morality.
God is infinite , we are finite

, therefore we gain finite

morals.

59.  so people have faith in

him not because they see

him , but because they don't

see him , which defines faith.
If he showed us himself and

did everything we asked ,

there would be no faith ,

thus no love.

60. Thats not the law he was

talking about.
The law is the

commandments. Moses' law

is law of Israelites , and is to

be carried out in the time of

the Exodus , not in modern

times.

61.  If you take away one

side , then there is only one

side to choose , thus no

freewill.

62. Gods plan isn't based on

trial and error. His plan is

based on what he will force

to happen , not what he

might have happen.

63. because we choose to

not repent.

64.  Commandments which

were placed in the heart. If

they did not choose to

believe in a false God , but

they chose to repent from

their guilt , then they were

saved.

65 , our body will resurect

and will fall below the grave

and burn forever without

scratch or tear.

66.  It's not that the sacrifice

appeases God. It's

symbolism for the messiah

and is to be practiced until

his arrival.
Besides , the lambs were

eaten afterwards , so the

killing wasn't in vain.

67.  I have no clue. All I

know is that it will rest in

heaven. god bless your

friend.

68. "Earth" in old english ,

meant the atmosphere , the

ground , etc , and not just

the hunk of rock we are on.
So heart of the earth would

be Israel.  If it meant hell ,

then I don't know. I haven't

studied much of that part.

69. It's not what we claim ,

it's what is in the bible.

70.  no. it was their time to

go home , naturally.
It gives the mothers a hope

of actually seeing their "Child

to be" in heaven when they

too die.

71. I would have to wouldn't

I?  It's either eternal Hell or

eternal lesser hell.
But God is going to treat us

nice , as he promised us in

the bible.

72. Leviticus says thats an

abomination (TO THE

PEOPLE OF ISRAEL AT THE

TIME). An adulterer was

being stoned , and Jesus

said "Let him who is without

sin cast the first stone" , and

so nobody stoned her. Jesus

wants us to treat sinners

with kindness , because we

are all sinners.

73.  It's a sin to murder.

74.  No one can prove

anything , or else there

wouldn't be doubt of even

the most true things.

75.  that's just weird. I love

competition , but

competition doesn't have to

be evil.

76.  The secrets of the

kingdom are given to us .

Parables help us understand

the secrets.

78.  maybe the brain doesn't

have to be the only thing

responsible for conciousness.

79. I don't.  My friend's

brother is gay , and he's

almost my step brother

soon. I don't make fun of

him. On time he asked me if

I hated him. I told him that

there is nothing to hate

about him.

80.  the question , I couldn't

understand. Maybe it's

because it's like 6:11 Am ,

and I got no sleep.

81. salvation through

repentance of the heart ,

and the turning away from

doctrines of lies , is what

saved people that never

heard of Christ.

83.  What is tiny , he makes

large , because he loves us

more deeply than we can

imagine. I was talking about

the planet , not male

"weiner"

84.  It's their freewill to

spread lies.  It's the sin to

believe in them and to

spread them .

85. I am not a homophobo

or adulter..a..phobe(?)

86.  It wasn't supposed to

drown the fish.

87. He didn't create us that

way. we chose that way. I

mean , he did give us animal

parts , but he didn't curse us

with suffering and death until

we did a crime.

88.  maybe he didn't.
Maybe God knew that he

would betray him.

89.I don't know.
That doesn't disprove or

prove anything.

90.....  nevermind , it's done.

 HAHAHA

I didn't read the rules. 
Sorry I have bad grammar ,

Canada is poor in English

class. Besides it's 6:28 in the

morning. Ive been up for a

long time.

This is all I have , sorry.
Anyway , I can't get in detail

with every single question

with people. Just bring up an

argument for a couple

questions , thanx.

      -Alex

 

Oh yea , sorry about the format.  I did this all with notepad.....   so yea..


butterbattle
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alexross8 wrote:4.  My

alexross8 wrote:
4. My guess is that he takes our sadness away , so we cannot ever be sad in heaven.

Okay. So, we'll know that they're in hell, but we won't be sad because God takes our sadness away. Can we be mad?

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


mellestad
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7:  So God loves us enough

7:  So God loves us enough to save us.  

 

Does that mean he hates some of us enough to torture us forever?

Do you have children?  If they don't tell you they love you, do you haul them to your basement and get the flaying knives out?

 

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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I'll take a stab

Almost all of the questions I answered involved basic problems in the way they were framed. I didn't go further because the questions started getting repetitive, and I got other things to do! 

I tagged each answer with oft-repeated basic problem labels, explained here:

 

Anthropomorphic non sequitur Just because we can describe anthropomorphic characteristics in a contradictory or inconsistent way does not therefore mean that either the anthropomorphism is valid or that the contradictions or inconsistencies are attributable to God

Assumed anthropomorphism Assumes as given that human characteristics are attributable to God. It ain't necessarily so.

Assumptions as given Assumes as given various notions in order for the question to make sense. It ain't necessarily so, and alternate assumptions will change the question, render the question trivial, or render the question nonsense.

Begs for judgment beyond available evidence or information Asks a question that can't be answered based on evidence or reliable information

Free will denial Some formulations of Christianity assert determinism. I don't subscribe to that notion. Others subscribe to the notion that God gave man free will. I answer from the pro-free will perspective. Many of the questions imply that God would need to violate free will in order to satisfy the intent of the question/argument. This is not a Christian or theistic problem, per se, but an old philosophical problem. Whether or not man has free will is pretty irrelevant to whether God exists or is this kind of God or that kind of God. However, expecting God to do things that violate our free will has consequences that are unnecessary and which people who raise such questions would not want to accept if they simply thought it through. 

Ignores evidence or information One question simply ignored available information

Logic error Simple error in logic

Reduction to comprehensibility This is a very common device in arguments against God. It essentially requires God to behave in ways that are comprehensible to us, or requires claims made about God to make sense to us. If something is not comprehensible or does not make sense, it's truth or existence is denied. Obviously, when God is concerned, we should expect much of what God is and God does to exceed our comprehension. NOTE: this valid criticism of this device has been abused by religious authorities, taken to the extreme that their adherents are expected to swallow all kinds of BS under the banner "God works in mysterious ways." The abuses of the criticism do not invalidate the criticism.

The weakness of reduction to comprehensibility device is that it appeals to implicit, undemonstrated, and even non-rational notions, sentiments, or intuitions about what should or should not be for its persuasive power. This is like saying that if you expect it, it should be true, or that if you don't expect it, it shouldn't be true. The other weakness of the device is that it does not give reasons why a particular thing should make any sense to us at all.

Note that the classic “problem of evil” is an argument that depends on this device.

=====

 

Quote:
1. If Jesus fulfilled all the OT prophecies so well, why didn't the Jews recognize him as the messiah? - Francois Tremblay
The question assumes as given that fulfilling prophecy should result in recognition. Some of the prophecies predicted that Jesus would be rejected. The Jews expected a Messiah that would save them from Gentile rule. The question implies that the Jews responsible for rejecting him were sincere. Jesus accused them of hypocrisy. No clergy at any time or place has ever accepted those who seemed to threaten their offices or incomes. >> Assumptions as given; Ignores evidence or information

Quote:
2. If Gen 3:24 is true, why hasn't anyone found the Cherubims and the " flaming sword which turned every way"?
The question assumes as given that they are literal and that you can see them. Question implies that existence/truth depends on extant evidence. Lack of evidence does not constitute proof of non-existence. >> Assumptions as given

Quote:
3. It's been proven that modern humans originated from Africa. Yet, the Adam and Eve story claims the first Humans lived in a garden in Eden, near 4 rivers. ( Most of which no one can find). One of these rivers mentioned is the Euphrates, which runs through Iraq, Syria and a portion of Turkey. What's the truth? Did man come out of Africa or near the Euphrates River? - The Infidel Guy
Actually, this was “proved” more than once, and then subsequently disproved. In fact, we don't know. Everything we do know is subject to the possibility of finding archeological evidence that will change the picture.

Quote:
4. When the believer gets to Heaven, how can Heaven be utter bliss when people they love and care about are burning in Hell ? - The Infidel Guy - [Note: Some say God erases your memories of them, but if God erases your memory, you as Mr. Joe /Jane Smoe ceases to exist.]
Assumes as given that people you love and care about would be in hell instead of in heaven with you. This idea is held by some Christians. What, do you take their word for it? Some also say that extramarital sex is a sin. Does that indicate something about sex or about them? What if hell only had the people that none of us wanted around or would miss? How would that affect this question? >> Assumptions as given

Quote:
5. How can a God have emotions, i.e. jealousy, anger, sadness, love, etc., if he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent? Emotional states are reactionary for the most part. How can God react to us if he is all-knowing and has a divine plan? - IG [Note: Indeed, many religious texts display their gods this way . Listen to the An Emotional Godshow.]
Assumes anthropomorphism of God as definitive. Anthropomorphic descriptions of deity cannot be considered definitive. Arguments based on anthropomorphism only show that there can be conflicts between anthropomorphic characteristics. They do not show that the conflicting characteristics are properly attributed to God. NOTE: Atheists should not use the absurdity of anthropomorphism as a criticism of theistic beliefs with one hand, and then pose contradictions predicated on anthropomorphism with the other. >> Anthropomorphic non sequitur

Quote:
6. Why would God create a place such as hell to torture sinners forever when he foreknew who would disappoint him? - IG [Note: Some say you have a choice, but this misses the point. If God hates sin so much, why create Adam and Eve when he knew they'd sin? The only conclusion I can come up with, if Yaweh exists, is that he wanted sin to enter the world.]
Several assumptions: 1) Hell is a “place” created by God for torture, 2) Sinners go to hell, 3) God puts them there, all of which must be true for a “why” question to make sense. There are alternative assumptions.

 

Regarding general punishment of evildoers, whatever form it might take, the consequences that follow from a person's behavior are connected to that behavior. It's reasonable that evil behavior results in evil consequences for the person who did evil, however you construe evil.

 

Second question raises foreknowledge vs. man's free will issue, which continues to be a quandary that we haven't figured out. The fact that we haven't figured it out does not prove that the quandary is not real. Nor is this a Christian or theistic problem, per se, but an old philosophical problem. The question assumes as given an intent that isn't necessary. If my partner and I decided to have a family and knew with 100% certainty that one of our children would have a birth defect or be a psychopath, if we had a plan for how to manage the problems, should we be faulted for having a family? Having a family would not prove that our intent was to bring birth defects or psychopaths into the world. This question implies an argument that boils down to requiring God to be comprehensible. The question also ignores the possibility that the only way for God to ensure fidelity and relationship with humans is to allow them to develop and demonstrate a refusal of sin that surpasses any motivation that would again lead to sin. No refusal of sin can occur in the absence of sin. In that sense, God indeed wanted sin to come into the world. If will is truly free, sin is truly possible. Then, if sin were never to occur, it would be a kind of happy coincidence. Apparently, we live in a universe in which sin did occur. >> Assumptions as given; Reduction to comprehensibility; Free will denial

Quote:
7. "God is all merciful," we hear quite often. Wouldn't it be more merciful of God to simply snap sinners out of existence rather than send them to hell? Or better yet, since he's all-knowing, not allow them to be born at all? - IG

 

ON GOD'S LOVE & HELL

1.) God's love is superlative.

2.) God's love of man exceeds man's love of self.

3.) Man's love of self prohibits torture.

4.) Considering God's greater love for us, Hell (eternal torture) is illogical.

Classic free will denial. This is not a Christian or theistic problem, per se, but an old philosophical problem. Eliminating the possibility of evil renders all good as something mandated without possibility of dissent. As a government, mandated good without possibility of dissent is totalitarianism. This question if satisfied makes God a totalitarian. Actually, raised to the level of the Divine Almighty, satisfying this question would render humanity benevolent zombie puppets and God as puppet master.

Argument about hell makes assumptions as given about the nature of hell and denies causality. >> Free will denial; assumptions as given

Quote:
8. Muslims are supposed to pray 5 times a day towards Mecca. Each prayer includes a variety of ritualism and posturing. If a muslim astronaut were to land on Mars. Prayer to Mecca would be ritualistically impossible due to the rotation of Earth and Mars. Are Muslims stuck here in Earth? IG [Note: Since this was first posted, a Muslim astronaut was faced with this very dilemma. The authoritative clergy informed him to pray as he normally would. I see this no where in the Koran. You see? Religions must change, or die out. It's interesting to note that, in the Koran, the moon is believed to be in the lowest Heaven, the level for those that barely made it to Heaven. Surah 71:15-16. One problem, no man can supposedly get to Heaven until they die. Yet, we've been to the moon. Our satellites beyond that.]
Can't speak to Islam >>

Quote:
9. Why haven't we seen God reattach severed heads, restore someone who was burned alive or regrow amputated limbs? Surely these would be miracles difficult to deny. - Adam Majors and IG [Note: The typical answer is that man doesn't dictate God's actions. The conundrum here however is that, if God wants us to "know" him, then surely feats such as those mentioned above would be happening all over the world. Until they do, I'll remain an atheist.]
Miracles require faith, according to Jesus. There were places that he couldn't do many miracles because of unbelief. Question assumes as given the converse, that miracles would create faith. Jesus indicated the opposite, that it was evil that prompted people to ask for signs and wonders. Assumes as given that God wants people who do not want to know him to admit that he exists. This is an anthropomorphism. >> Assumptions as given; Assumed anthropomorphism

Quote:
10. Why does God entrust the spreading of 'His' word to sinners? Why doesn't he do it himself? - IG [Note: Surely God would have known that not everyone would be convinced by the reality[sic] of his Bible. If God loves us so much, we are all going to Heaven. If God knew that I would be an atheist, and he doesn't like atheists, he shouldn't have allowed me to come into existence. But he did. Therefore, I must be serving the will of God, for I exist. ]
Assumes as given that God is interested in intellectual assent of his existence. Assumes as given heaven is a “place” where we go as a reward. Foreknowledge vs. free will again. This is the same type of argument children of all ages use against their parents when their parents disapprove of them and try to get them to take responsibility for their behavior: I didn't ask to be born, that was your choice, so you are responsible. It's also the same logic used by children to blame their parents for their own behavior by attributing their behavior to inherited traits, faulty or abusive upbringing, or faulty indoctrination that their parents were responsible for. These arguments negate the free will, integrity, and human value of the arguer. >> Assumptions as given; Assumed anthropomorphism; Free will denial

Quote:
11. In II Kings 2-23/24 we read about God sending 2 she-bears to attack children for calling the prophet Elisa bald, which he was, the bears killed 42 of the children. Was this a good thing to do? -- Brandon and IG[Note: I have heard some argue that the boys were a gang. So?! I didn't read anywhere in that passage where they laid a finger on the guy . Also, what kind of bears are these that can kill 42 kids? Super Bears? Surely the kids had to be running away.]
The question could imply that it could not have been a good thing, which would be judgment beyond available evidence. This could have been a good thing or it could have been an example of God allowing the prophet to do something that was not good. The story refers to what can be translated across a range from “little children” to “unimportant youths”. There is not enough information to form a valid judgment. Whatever happened, it rose to the level that the prophet cursed them, so it was probably worse than simple teasing or juvenile name-calling. The story says that 42 were torn, not killed. >> Restriction to comprehensibility; Begs for judgment beyond available evidence or information

Quote:
12. I have often heard from many believers that even Satan has a presence in the church, which is why even in church people can still have impure thoughts. If Satan can find his way in the church, how do Christians know that Satan didn't find his way into the Bible and twist the whole book? After all, men did vote on which books would make the Holy Bible. - The Infidel Guy
They don't. As a matter of fact, the canonization of the Bible served a political function, designed to strengthen the position of the church leaders responsible for canonization against other church leaders who were considered to be “heretics,” which labeling was yet another political device.

Quote:
13. Why did God allow Lot and his daughters to escape from Sodom and Gomorra when he destroyed it only to later have Lot and his daughters engage in incestuous fornication. (Genesis 19:30-36) - Disillusioned [Note: To have intercourse with daddy dearest of course.]
Foreknowledge vs. free will again >> Restriction to comprehensibility; Free will denial

Quote:
14. Genesis 1:28-29 shows that man and all the animals were first created herbivorous. Most young-earth Christians (ones that believes the earth is less than 10,000 years old) say that the fall of man resulted in carnivorous animals ( hence death of animals). So, why did God punish the animal kingdom, making animals kill and devour each other because of man's mistake? Or, if you're an old-earth Christian (one that accepts that animals existed on earth for billions of years before man came on the scene) then how come fossils show carnivorous animals existed before man? -http://www.caseagainstfaith.com/contact.htm.
Gen. 1:28-29 indicates herbivory, but it does not preclude carnivory >> Logic error

Quote:
15. Many Christians believe that God is a thinking being, that he solves problems and makes a way for them when troubles come. Does God Think? If God is thinking, did he know his thoughts before he thought them? If so, again, where is his freewill and how is God thinking at all if everything seems to be one uncontrollable action/thoughts. - The Infidel Guy [Note: I'd say a God cannot think at all. To do so, would strip him of omniscience. Thinking is a temporal process.]

 

ON GOD'S ATEMPORALITY

1.) God, an atemporal being, created the Universe.

2.) Creation is a temporal processes because X cannot cause Y to come into being unless X existed temporally prior to Y.

3.) If God existed prior to the creation of the Universe he is a temporal being.

4.) Since God is atemporal, God cannot be the creator the Universe.

[Note: I guess I should also note here that a timeless being would be without the proposition of past, and future. But to be omniscient, God must know the past and future. Hence a God that is atemporal and omniscient cannot logically exist. ]

The apparent riddles/contradictions posed by this question are predicated on anthropomorphic characteristics and limitations. Anthropomorphic descriptions of deity cannot be considered definitive. To say that God cannot think is to discount the possibility of something more advanced than thinking that would resolve the anthropomorphic quandaries.

Regarding "atemporality," assumes as given that God is atemporal. If God is atemporal, he stands outside time, not before time, so #3 assumes as given that God is temporal in contradiction to #1 and #4, therefore the conclusion in #4 does not follow.

The questioner clearly ignores the possibility of a state that both surpasses and encompasses temporality. Also, assumed anthropomorphic definition of “know.” >> Reduction to comprehensibility; Assumptions as given; Assumed anthropomorphism

Quote:
16. I have often heard that faith is all that is neccessary to believe in God and accept the Bible as true. If this is true aren't all supernatural beliefs true since they also require "faith"? -

 

IG ON FAITH

1.) A prerequisite to believe in a Faith is faith.

2.) Having faith is all that is required to accept a Faith (belief) as true.

3.) All Faiths are true.

[Note: Of course all Faiths aren`t true, but this is the only logical conclusion that can be drawn from a person that states that, "Faith" is how one knows God.]

Assumes as given that this notion of faith is a given. There are alternatives. Also logic error: Accepting God and the Bible as true does not make them true. Having faith does not guarantee anything. You must believe me to accept my word as the truth. Faith in me doesn't guarantee that I'm telling the truth.

 

#2 is assumption as given: Faith in faith is bogus, but the question implies that there are no alternatives, no non-bogus notions of “faith” >> Restriction to comprehensibility; Logic error; Assumptions as given

Quote:
17. Why didn't God just kill Adam and Eve after the Fall and start from scratch? Actually, if God is all-knowing wouldn't he know that man would need to be killed eventually anyway, (the biblical flood)? Why create Adam and Eve at all?  and infidelguy@infidelguy.com 

 

ON THE GARDEN OF EDEN

1.) God is omniscient (all-knowing).

2.) God knew that before he created man that they would eat of the tree of knowledge.

3.) God placed the tree of knowledge in the Garden anyway.

4.) God wanted sin to enter the world.

[Note: If God didn`t want sin to enter the world, why create Adam and Eve at all? He knew what would happen. Why place the forbidden trees in the Garden in the first place?]

Similar to #6. Asserts potential infinite regress until God gets it right. Implies that God should kill sinners on the spot, or possibly kill everyone as soon as anyone sins and “start from scratch.” The question also ignores the possibility that the only way for God to ensure fidelity and relationship with humans is to allow them to develop and demonstrate a refusal of sin that surpasses any motivation that would again lead to sin. No refusal of sin can occur in the absence of sin. In that sense, God indeed wanted sin to come into the world. If will is truly free, sin is truly possible. Then, if sin were never to occur, it would be a kind of happy coincidence. Apparently, we live in a universe in which sin did occur. >> Infinite regress; Assumptions as given; Reduction to comprehensibility

Quote:
18. If a spirit is non-physical but the human body is physical, how does a spirit stay in our bodies? -

 

IG ON SPIRITS

 

1.) Spirits are not physical entities.

2.) Brains are physical entities.

3.) Past experiences are stored in our physical brains, we call that, Memory..

4.) Injury can damage portions of the physical brain that store memory and can alter or erase memories completely.

5.) If human spirits exist... after death, spirits can have no memory.

[Note: Some will say the spirit stores physical memories as well, but if true, the spirit would have to be physical at least to a degree. How could a non-physical spirit store, physical memories?]

Assumes as given dualism as a given; there are alternatives. Assumes as given conclusion. Even if spirits are “not physical”, if they exist at all there is no reason to think that they carry a spiritual mirror of “physical” memory. Argument simply asserts a disconnection between physical brain function and “spirits” which is the crux of the conclusion that spirits have no memory. Also confuses recall with storage and ignores alternate types of memory. Inability to consciously recall memories does not mean that the events of which memories were lost did not imprint the nervous system and the body of the person in other ways. By the same token, those experiences could have imprinted the person's “spirit” in similar ways. >> Assumptions as given; Logic error

Quote:
19. Does God know his own future decisions? If God is all-knowing he actually shouldn't have any decisions to make at all. Nor can he choose anything over something else. For that would mean that he is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. In fact, he can't even think if this is the case. Since he can't DO anything, he might as well not exist. -

 

IG ON GOD'S IMMUTABILITY - Unchangingness

 

1. If God exists, then he is immutable.

2. If God exists, then he is the creator of the universe.

3. An immutable being cannot at one time have an intention and then at a later time not have that intention.

4. For any being to create anything, prior to the creation he must have had the intention to create it, but at a later time, after the creation, no longer have the intention to create it.

5. Thus, it is impossible for an immutable being to have created anything (from 3 and 4).

6. Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1, 2, and 5) - Theodore M. Drange

Similar to #15. The apparent riddles/contradictions posed by this question are predicated on anthropomorphic characteristics and limitations. Anthropomorphic descriptions of deity cannot be considered definitive. To say that God cannot think is to discount the possibility of something more advanced than thinking that would resolve the anthropomorphic quandaries.

 Assumes as given immutability as given. There are alternatives. The scriptural basis for “immutability” are statements that refer to God as a being in terms of identity, nature, and character, asserting God's reliability and consistency, not that God is static.

 

Argument:

1) immutable <> static

2) non sequitur, God could exist and not be the creator of the universe

3) again, immutable <> static

The rest of the argument fails because of faulty premises

>> Assumptions as given; Assumed anthropomorphism

Quote:
20. If God is all-knowing, how could he be disappointed in His creation?  [Note: Indeed, wouldn't God know that before the creation of our Universe what creatures would disappoint him? That being the case why create those creatures at all? Also, in knowing absolutely the behavior of humans before creation, God cannot be disappointed either... for this world is exactly as he has planned it to be. If it's not, why create us at all?]
Assumes as given a simplistic notion of omniscience and disappointment, based on anthropomorphism. Similar to #6 and #17. Parents do this all the time: allow their children to do what they can foresee they will do in order to allow the children to learn. The fact that they knew the child would disappoint them ahead of time does not change the fact that they are disappointed when it happens, nor does it mean that they should have intervened. >> Assumptions as given; Reduction to comprehensibility

Quote:
21. God struck down the Tower of Babel angry at the intent of the people that built them, if this is the case, many of the great pyramids ( which are bigger than any ziggurat) around the world should be rubble also, yet many still stand today. Were not the Egyptians and many other ancient pyramid builders reaching toward God /The Heavens? - IG [Note: In actuality, many of the Pharaoh's believed that, via their pyramids, they would become God's themselves.]
Assumes as given equivalence between the Tower of Babel and the pyramids that would require God to treat them likewise. Assumes as given that the reason God intervened with the Tower of Babel had to do with physical structure or size. Assumes as given that Egyptian reaching to heaven was equivalent to Tower of Babel. Even if this were granted, ignores the significance of what God did at Babel. “The LORD said, "Behold, they are one people, and they all have the same language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they purpose to do will be impossible for them.” After having dispersed the people and confused their language, subsequent “reaching to heaven” did not represent a universal phenomenon. Other groups of humans could intervene if one went too far in the wrong direction. >> Assumptions as given

Quote:
22. In the watchmaker analogy, a watch is used to show us intelligent design and compares that to the Universe as evidence of design. We know watches are designed because we have past experience with watches, as well as with other man made objects. My question is: What Universe is the Intelligent Design proponent using to compare this Universe with to draw such an analogy? What God did he see create a Universe? - IG
similar to #15 in that the questioner clearly ignores the possibility of a state that both surpasses and encompasses all universes.

 

The question “What God did he [ID proponent] see create a universe?” is a nonsense question. >> Assumptions as given

Quote:
23. Why did God flood the earth to remove evil? It didn't work! Evil came right back, God should have known that would happen! So why did He bother? - PhineasBg [Note: A good example of how quickly sin returned, was Noah getting drunk just after they discovered land.]
Assumes as given a particular intention; there are alternatives. Evil didn't come right back, it never left. The flood was definitely a statement about how seriously God regards evil. Ditto #6, #17, and #20 on arguing that since it doesn't make sense to us, God shouldn't have done it. The question also ignores the possibility that the only way for God to ensure fidelity and relationship with humans is to allow them to develop and demonstrate a refusal of sin that surpasses any motivation that would again lead to sin. No refusal of sin can occur in the absence of sin. In that sense, God indeed wanted sin to come into the world. If will is truly free, sin is truly possible. Then, if sin were never to occur, it would be a kind of happy coincidence. Apparently, we live in a universe in which sin did occur. >> Reduction to comprehensibility; Assumptions as given

Quote:
24. If the garden of Eden was a perfect paradise as xians claim, then why did Eve even want to eat the fruit? Wouldn't a perfect place provide everything a person would want or desire and thus she would want nothing? - keyser soze [Note: Why were the trees there in the first place? Of course they love to throw the serpent into the equation. But ummm..who let the serpent into the Garden?... and why would God create such a creature knowing he would cause man's fall? Hmm.. God must have wanted the fall to happen.]
Good question about motivation, however assumes as given that perfect environments will result in perfect behavior. Ditto #6, #17, and #20 in that the question ignores the possibility that the only way for God to ensure fidelity and relationship with humans was to allow them to develop and demonstrate a refusal of sin that surpasses any motivation that would again lead to sin. No refusal of sin can occur in the absence of sin. In that sense, God indeed wanted sin to come into the world and for the fall to happen. If will is truly free, sin is truly possible. Then, if sin were never to occur, it would be a kind of happy coincidence. Apparently, we live in a universe in which sin did occur. If God wanted to make sure sin was finally dealt with, the solution would have to preclude any and all possible causes, up to and including mere whim. That requires a situation in which mere whim could be responsible for sin, such as described by Eve taking the fruit on whim.>> Reduction to comprehensibility; Assumptions as given

 

When The Church, i.e., organized religion collectively, divests itself of its obscene wealth, gives it all to feed the poor, and releases its death grip on the minds of its adherents, I will once again listen to what it has to say, which at that point I'm sure will be very little.

Man has to awaken to wonder — and so perhaps do peoples.
Science is a way of sending him to sleep again.
-- Ludwig Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus


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Questions About God

I have no answers, but my free ebook does have many more questions.  Thirty years to write all these short stories, but you can throw them out in a matter of minutes.  Again, this is free, and in a whole bunch of formats.  http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/17846   It's called The Chronicles of a Lost Soul, by Michael LaRocca, who is me.

 

Jehovah means I am, so when Moses was asked "Who is your god?" he replied "I am."

 

http://www.michaeledits.com You can't eat grits with chopsticks


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I can't tell you, ha ha ha

I can't tell you, ha ha ha ha ha

Well, can you give me a hint?

You want a hint?

Yes, please.

How long can you tread water? Ha ha ha ha ha

http://www.michaeledits.com You can't eat grits with chopsticks


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Quote: It doesn't work that

Quote:
 It doesn't work that way anyway. We don't go around as evangelists, trying to convince people that Jesus is the way to go with intellectual arguments about rationality.

hmm..........don't you think we should? I mean isn't that what Paul did?......lecture not just preach? Do we believe Christianity to be the most rational answer or not? If we don't, isn't it just saying, "don't ask questions, just believe? 

Quote:
8. Muslims are supposed to pray 5 times a day towards Mecca. Each prayer includes a variety of ritualism and posturing. If a muslim astronaut were to land on Mars. Prayer to Mecca would be ritualistically impossible due to the rotation of Earth and Mars. Are Muslims stuck here in Earth? IG [Note: Since this was first posted, a Muslim astronaut was faced with this very dilemma. The authoritative clergy informed him to pray as he normally would. I see this no where in the Koran. You see? Religions must change, or die out. It's interesting to note that, in the Koran, the moon is believed to be in the lowest Heaven, the level for those that barely made it to Heaven. Surah 71:15-16. One problem, no man can supposedly get to Heaven until they die. Yet, we've been to the moon. Our satellites beyond that.]

Can't speak to Islam >>

 

ok, I'll give it a go.

1] The claim of Islam is that Allah is merciful.

2] Mercy is an aspect of love

3] Love exists only in the exercise thereof

4] Before creation Allah had no-one to whom to show mercy

5] Thus the claim is spurious unless Allah became merciful having created.

6] 5 above being the case - Allah is not immutable and is therefore not God.

7] If Allah had to create in order to become merciful he needed to create and is therefore not autonomous and is   therefore not God.

 

 so........vis a vis the question........assuming you require truth, forget it, it's irrelevant! but........religion changes constantly, a bit like evolutionary theories. The God of the Bible says he doesn't.

Quote:
When The Church, i.e., organized religion collectively, divests itself of its obscene wealth, gives it all to feed the poor, and releases its death grip on the minds of its adherents, I will once again listen to what it has to say, which at that point I'm sure will be very little.

you seem to have in mind the "church" as organised by Man. You may find the Church as organised by Jesus more to your taste.

 

 

 

 

'It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man, than by this: that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted it within themselves and would be glad to be strengthened by the consent of others.' Francis Bacon.


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I've got a question(I

I've got a question(I haven't read this entire topic so maybe it has been asked before, in that case, sorry Sticking out tongue )

 

If god is Infinity, then it is implied that god is complete, and god can only be complete, if he is everything that's possible(not everything that we can think of that's possible, but just everything that's possible). There cannot be anything that God is not, for then God would still have the potential to become that thing he is not, and potential equals incompleteness.

 

My point being: If god has to be everything that is, in order to be what he is, he SHOULD be sitting visibly on my lap at this very moment, because it is a valid possibilty for him to be. 

 

I don't see him, so how do you explain that?

There is no god up in the sky tonight
No sign of heaven anywhere in sight


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Wrong question!

Hey founder!

Questions about God...?!?!?!? These are not questions about God... for God sake!!! These are questions about literal Biblical interpretation!!! and I thought this was a challenge!!!

Bogus...

______________________________________________________________
"I once prayed to god for a bike, but quickly found out he didnt work that way...so I stole a bike and prayed for his forgiveness"

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter." (Max Planck)

"the existence of mind in some organism on some planet in the universe is surely a fact of fundamental significance. Through conscious beings the universe has generated self-awareness. This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here." Paul Davies


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...

In fact, the name revealed to Moses is 'I am who I am' not simply 'I am...'

God is who God is. And simply put, God is.

He is the Potter and we are the clay. Only in utter rebellion and depravity would the pot have the audacity to climb upon the throne of the Almighty God and shake his puny fist the face of his Maker and attempt to judge the Judge.

Moses wasn't some post-modern humanist running around claiming to be God... If you would not have ignored what was stated in the very next verse you would see that your point is devoid of intelligence.

"God also said to Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations. " - Exodus 3:15

'I am' is a great statement of God's self-sufficiency and proves that He didn't need to create anything to be sufficient in Himself. He created out of love. Of course, that wouldn't fit your agenda so I can see why you might have omitted it from your narrow way of reasoning.

I'm convinced that reading your eBook would be a complete waste of my time and if I rebutted every point in it your pre-commitment to God-hatredism would force you to revert back to the ignorance you've already displayed.

I would encourage you to read the Bible... Actually read it. Not just skim it to construct terrible arguments, but read it for what it truly is, the very words of God Himself. The Word of God has life changing power. Not to make your life better physically or monetarily, but soul impacting influence that can save your soul from the eternity of Hell that you and I both have earned. Put your faith in Jesus who bore the wrath of God for all who stop sinning and pick up a Cross and follow Him, believing in Him as their only hope on the Day of Judgment. Without His favor you have no hope. Pray for change and spiritual healing, you know that you need it.

In love,

Speaking Truth in love,

"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ..." - Paul to the Corinthians
------
Christian | Amaterialist | Supernaturalist | Anti-Crypto-Theist
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Facts do not speak for themselves.


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But you have to admire the defiance

eXnihilO wrote:

In fact, the name revealed to Moses is 'I am who I am' not simply 'I am...'

God is who God is. And simply put, God is.

He is the Potter and we are the clay. Only in utter rebellion and depravity would the pot have the audacity to climb upon the throne of the Almighty God and shake his puny fist the face of his Maker and attempt to judge the Judge.

Moses wasn't some post-modern humanist running around claiming to be God... If you would not have ignored what was stated in the very next verse you would see that your point is devoid of intelligence.

"God also said to Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations. " - Exodus 3:15

'I am' is a great statement of God's self-sufficiency and proves that He didn't need to create anything to be sufficient in Himself. He created out of love. Of course, that wouldn't fit your agenda so I can see why you might have omitted it from your narrow way of reasoning.

I'm convinced that reading your eBook would be a complete waste of my time and if I rebutted every point in it your pre-commitment to God-hatredism would force you to revert back to the ignorance you've already displayed.

I would encourage you to read the Bible... Actually read it. Not just skim it to construct terrible arguments, but read it for what it truly is, the very words of God Himself. The Word of God has life changing power. Not to make your life better physically or monetarily, but soul impacting influence that can save your soul from the eternity of Hell that you and I both have earned. Put your faith in Jesus who bore the wrath of God for all who stop sinning and pick up a Cross and follow Him, believing in Him as their only hope on the Day of Judgment. Without His favor you have no hope. Pray for change and spiritual healing, you know that you need it.

In love,

 You have to admire that desperate act of defiance. 

 

           

 

I have read the Bible and continue to do so. It is not life changing. It is an entirely human book about an evil God who is quite contradictory. He is not a god of love because he has brought on unimaginable evil. If you behaved like this god you would be locked up. Read it with an open mind and you will see that and not the sanitized version that churches spew out so they can build big churches and honor themselves. Don't be duped anymore. Free yourself before it is too late. You know in your heart this is true. Don't be afraid of an imaginary being.

Peace and Love.

Religion Kills !!!

Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/


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Teralek wrote:Hey

Teralek wrote:

Hey founder!

Questions about God...?!?!?!? These are not questions about God... for God sake!!! These are questions about literal Biblical interpretation!!! and I thought this was a challenge!!!

Bogus...

Quite a few are about the apparent meaning of Biblical texts, naturally, but there are plenty of other kinds of questions, even some about Muslim beliefs about God, as well as quite general questions about various things people have claimed about of God.

They are ALL questions that people have asked about the being, the concept, that they think of as 'God', which for many people, involves the Bible.

You can't have looked thru them at all closely, or are being very selective and narrow in your interpretation of what 'God' refers to, for different people. Or not accepting any other than your concept of God as valid, which would be arrogant, since there is no way a mere mortal could conclusively know anything about the actual nature of such a being, it it did exist. 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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Fishman wrote:I've got a

Fishman wrote:

I've got a question(I haven't read this entire topic so maybe it has been asked before, in that case, sorry Sticking out tongue )

 

If god is Infinity, then it is implied that god is complete, and god can only be complete, if he is everything that's possible(not everything that we can think of that's possible, but just everything that's possible). There cannot be anything that God is not, for then God would still have the potential to become that thing he is not, and potential equals incompleteness.

 

My point being: If god has to be everything that is, in order to be what he is, he SHOULD be sitting visibly on my lap at this very moment, because it is a valid possibilty for him to be. 

 

I don't see him, so how do you explain that?

'Infinity' is a concept of magnitude, or it is a reference to an 'infinite' amount or extent of something, such as space or time, or both.

Identifying 'God' as 'infinity', without further qualification, is therefore not a coherent concept, and can only be read in a poetic or allegorical or metaphorical sense.

It does not logically imply god is 'complete', nor that he is not. That term can be applied to any defined object.

It does not imply that 'he is everything that is possible', that is just one of the many things various people have said about their concept of God, and doesn't actually make sense beyond a poetic, emotional mode.

Having potential to be more than one is does not imply incompleteness, in itself, unless one is defined as being the greatest thing possible. God has often been thought of in that way, so that particual idea would imply that such a God cannot have unfulfilled 'potential'. But what constitutes that maximal 'greatness' is poorly defined. Being everything possible does not necessarily imply infinite, either, unless existence contains an infinite quantity of elementary bits (sub-atomic particles, or whatever are the ultimate components of 'things' ).

And being God does not entail being everything, let alone everything possible. Actually being everything possible at once is impossible, because many 'possibilities' are items in discrete, mutually exclusive sets of possibilities. A rock can be a whole range of possible sizes and shapes but it cannot be all possible sizes and shapes simultaneously.

And if God were simply 'everything', he would not be God as normally thought of, since he would simple be existence and everything in it, whereas he is typically envisaged as the instigator of existence, as being somehow 'outside' our aspect of existence, the creator of items within 'existence', such as our Universe.

Even if you think of God as 'everything', then you do see parts of him, everywhere you look, by definition.

Because of these and other logical difficulties inherent in virtually all concepts of God, it is highly unlikely that any such entity actually exists. And if it did, it would raise far more questions than it explained.

This does not preclude the possibility that some entity, vastly more powerful and intelligent that ourselves, does exist, and could even have created our planet and seeded it with life, and so would reasonably deserve to be regarded by us as a God. Such a being would not have to be 'infinite' in any sense.

However, such an entity could not plausibly be the 'creator' of 'all that is', since it would be part of that totality, and would most plausibly, according to our current understanding, be the result of a process of emergence/evolution from simpler organisms or other forms of matter.

Explanations of existence that assume entities can only be brought into being by other, greater, entities, are logically flawed, since we know that causes do not have to be 'greater' than their effects, merely 'sufficient'. Science has thoroughly demonstrated that things can happen, can even come to exist, at least at the tiniest scale possible, with no apparent cause whatever. Such an assumption, strongly supported by observation, also negates the problem of 'infinite regress', since even a conceptually infinite sequence of diminishing effects need not require infinite time, according to the mathematics of the summation of infinite series.

Whereas the 'God' explanation either has to assume God itself does not need to be created, thus conflicting with the assumption that everything needs a cause, or are faced with the impossible kind of infinite regress, of an ever greater series of 'creators'.

So an infinite 'God' is neither likely, particularly plausible, or necessary.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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resources :)

world.std.com/obi

ixquick.com


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BobSpence1 wrote:Fishman

BobSpence1 wrote:

Fishman wrote:

I've got a question(I haven't read this entire topic so maybe it has been asked before, in that case, sorry Sticking out tongue )

 

If god is Infinity, then it is implied that god is complete, and god can only be complete, if he is everything that's possible(not everything that we can think of that's possible, but just everything that's possible). There cannot be anything that God is not, for then God would still have the potential to become that thing he is not, and potential equals incompleteness.

 

My point being: If god has to be everything that is, in order to be what he is, he SHOULD be sitting visibly on my lap at this very moment, because it is a valid possibilty for him to be. 

 

I don't see him, so how do you explain that?

'Infinity' is a concept of magnitude, or it is a reference to an 'infinite' amount or extent of something, such as space or time, or both.

Identifying 'God' as 'infinity', without further qualification, is therefore not a coherent concept, and can only be read in a poetic or allegorical or metaphorical sense.

It does not logically imply god is 'complete', nor that he is not. That term can be applied to any defined object.

It does not imply that 'he is everything that is possible', that is just one of the many things various people have said about their concept of God, and doesn't actually make sense beyond a poetic, emotional mode.

Having potential to be more than one is does not imply incompleteness, in itself, unless one is defined as being the greatest thing possible. God has often been thought of in that way, so that particual idea would imply that such a God cannot have unfulfilled 'potential'. But what constitutes that maximal 'greatness' is poorly defined. Being everything possible does not necessarily imply infinite, either, unless existence contains an infinite quantity of elementary bits (sub-atomic particles, or whatever are the ultimate components of 'things' ).

And being God does not entail being everything, let alone everything possible. Actually being everything possible at once is impossible, because many 'possibilities' are items in discrete, mutually exclusive sets of possibilities. A rock can be a whole range of possible sizes and shapes but it cannot be all possible sizes and shapes simultaneously.

And if God were simply 'everything', he would not be God as normally thought of, since he would simple be existence and everything in it, whereas he is typically envisaged as the instigator of existence, as being somehow 'outside' our aspect of existence, the creator of items within 'existence', such as our Universe.

Even if you think of God as 'everything', then you do see parts of him, everywhere you look, by definition.

Because of these and other logical difficulties inherent in virtually all concepts of God, it is highly unlikely that any such entity actually exists. And if it did, it would raise far more questions than it explained.

This does not preclude the possibility that some entity, vastly more powerful and intelligent that ourselves, does exist, and could even have created our planet and seeded it with life, and so would reasonably deserve to be regarded by us as a God. Such a being would not have to be 'infinite' in any sense.

However, such an entity could not plausibly be the 'creator' of 'all that is', since it would be part of that totality, and would most plausibly, according to our current understanding, be the result of a process of emergence/evolution from simpler organisms or other forms of matter.

Explanations of existence that assume entities can only be brought into being by other, greater, entities, are logically flawed, since we know that causes do not have to be 'greater' than their effects, merely 'sufficient'. Science has thoroughly demonstrated that things can happen, can even come to exist, at least at the tiniest scale possible, with no apparent cause whatever. Such an assumption, strongly supported by observation, also negates the problem of 'infinite regress', since even a conceptually infinite sequence of diminishing effects need not require infinite time, according to the mathematics of the summation of infinite series.

Whereas the 'God' explanation either has to assume God itself does not need to be created, thus conflicting with the assumption that everything needs a cause, or are faced with the impossible kind of infinite regress, of an ever greater series of 'creators'.

So an infinite 'God' is neither likely, particularly plausible, or necessary.

 

Hey, i'm not implying God really IS infinity, I don't believe in God. But most people I know that are religious, DO believe in what I described to be God. When I ask them: describe god, they answer: 'god is an infinitely large being, complete in every way possible'. My question was meant for people like this.

 

Ofcourse everything you say is true, because you use reason and logic Sticking out tongue

There is no god up in the sky tonight
No sign of heaven anywhere in sight