Questions about God... theists answer these!

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Questions about God... theists answer these!

List of questions about God, religion and the supernatural have been compiled by IG over the years as well as some interesting ones by readers.

1. If Jesus fulfilled all the OT prophecies so well, why didn't the Jews recognize him as the messiah? - Francois Tremblay

2. If Gen 3:24 is true, why hasn't anyone found the Cherubims and the " flaming sword which turned every way"?

3. It's been proven that modern humans originated from Africa. Yet, the Adam and Eve story claims the first Humans lived in a garden in Eden, near 4 rivers. ( Most of which no one can find). One of these rivers mentioned is the Euphrates, which runs through Iraq, Syria and a portion of Turkey. What's the truth? Did man come out of Africa or near the Euphrates River? - The Infidel Guy

4. When the believer gets to Heaven, how can Heaven be utter bliss when people they love and care about are burning in Hell ? - The Infidel Guy - [Note: Some say God erases your memories of them, but if God erases your memory, you as Mr. Joe /Jane Smoe ceases to exist.]

5. How can a God have emotions, i.e. jealousy, anger, sadness, love, etc., if he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent? Emotional states are reactionary for the most part. How can God react to us if he is all-knowing and has a divine plan? - IG [Note: Indeed, many religious texts display their gods this way . Listen to the An Emotional Godshow.]
6. Why would God create a place such as hell to torture sinners forever when he foreknew who would disappoint him? - IG [Note: Some say you have a choice, but this misses the point. If God hates sin so much, why create Adam and Eve when he knew they'd sin? The only conclusion I can come up with, if Yaweh exists, is that he wanted sin to enter the world.]

7. "God is all merciful," we hear quite often. Wouldn't it be more merciful of God to simply snap sinners out of existence rather than send them to hell? Or better yet, since he's all-knowing, not allow them to be born at all? - IG
ON GOD'S LOVE & HELL
1.) God's love is superlative.
2.) God's love of man exceeds man's love of self.
3.) Man's love of self prohibits torture.
4.) Considering God's greater love for us, Hell (eternal torture) is illogical.

8. Muslims are supposed to pray 5 times a day towards Mecca. Each prayer includes a variety of ritualism and posturing. If a muslim astronaut were to land on Mars. Prayer to Mecca would be ritualistically impossible due to the rotation of Earth and Mars. Are Muslims stuck here in Earth? IG [Note: Since this was first posted, a Muslim astronaut was faced with this very dilemma. The authoritative clergy informed him to pray as he normally would. I see this no where in the Koran. You see? Religions must change, or die out. It's interesting to note that, in the Koran, the moon is believed to be in the lowest Heaven, the level for those that barely made it to Heaven. Surah 71:15-16. One problem, no man can supposedly get to Heaven until they die. Yet, we've been to the moon. Our satellites beyond that.]

9. Why haven't we seen God reattach severed heads, restore someone who was burned alive or regrow amputated limbs? Surely these would be miracles difficult to deny. - Adam Majors and IG [Note: The typical answer is that man doesn't dictate God's actions. The conundrum here however is that, if God wants us to "know" him, then surely feats such as those mentioned above would be happening all over the world. Until they do, I'll remain an atheist.]

10. Why does God entrust the spreading of 'His' word to sinners? Why doesn't he do it himself? - IG [Note: Surely God would have known that not everyone would be convinced by the reality[sic] of his Bible. If God loves us so much, we are all going to Heaven. If God knew that I would be an atheist, and he doesn't like atheists, he shouldn't have allowed me to come into existence. But he did. Therefore, I must be serving the will of God, for I exist. Smiling]

11. In II Kings 2-23/24 we read about God sending 2 she-bears to attack children for calling the prophet Elisa bald, which he was, the bears killed 42 of the children. Was this a good thing to do? -- Brandon and IG[Note: I have heard some argue that the boys were a gang. So?! I didn't read anywhere in that passage where they laid a finger on the guy . Also, what kind of bears are these that can kill 42 kids? Super Bears? Surely the kids had to be running away.]

12. I have often heard from many believers that even Satan has a presence in the church, which is why even in church people can still have impure thoughts. If Satan can find his way in the church, how do Christians know that Satan didn't find his way into the Bible and twist the whole book? After all, men did vote on which books would make the Holy Bible. - The Infidel Guy

13. Why did God allow Lot and his daughters to escape from Sodom and Gomorra when he destroyed it only to later have Lot and his daughters engage in incestuous fornication. (Genesis 19:30-36) - Disillusioned [Note: To have intercourse with daddy dearest of course.]

14. Genesis 1:28-29 shows that man and all the animals were first created herbivorous. Most young-earth Christians (ones that believes the earth is less than 10,000 years old) say that the fall of man resulted in carnivorous animals ( hence death of animals). So, why did God punish the animal kingdom, making animals kill and devour each other because of man's mistake? Or, if you're an old-earth Christian (one that accepts that animals existed on earth for billions of years before man came on the scene) then how come fossils show carnivorous animals existed before man? - http://www.caseagainstfaith.com/contact.htm.

15. Many Christians believe that God is a thinking being, that he solves problems and makes a way for them when troubles come. Does God Think? If God is thinking, did he know his thoughts before he thought them? If so, again, where is his freewill and how is God thinking at all if everything seems to be one uncontrollable action/thoughts. - The Infidel Guy [Note: I'd say a God cannot think at all. To do so, would strip him of omniscience. Thinking is a temporal process.] ON GOD'S ATEMPORALITY
1.) God, an atemporal being, created the Universe.
2.) Creation is a temporal processes because X cannot cause Y to come into being unless X existed temporally prior to Y.
3.) If God existed prior to the creation of the Universe he is a temporal being.
4.) Since God is atemporal, God cannot be the creator the Universe.
[Note: I guess I should also note here that a timeless being would be without the proposition of past, and future. But to be omniscient, God must know the past and future. Hence a God that is atemporal and omniscient cannot logically exist. Smiling]

16. I have often heard that faith is all that is neccessary to believe in God and accept the Bible as true. If this is true aren't all supernatural beliefs true since they also require "faith"? - IG ON FAITH
1.) A prerequisite to believe in a Faith is faith.
2.) Having faith is all that is required to accept a Faith (belief) as true.
3.) All Faiths are true.
[Note: Of course all Faiths aren`t true, but this is the only logical conclusion that can be drawn from a person that states that, "Faith" is how one knows God.]

17. Why didn't God just kill Adam and Eve after the Fall and start from scratch? Actually, if God is all-knowing wouldn't he know that man would need to be killed eventually anyway, (the biblical flood)? Why create Adam and Eve at all? - and ON THE GARDEN OF EDEN
1.) God is omniscient (all-knowing).
2.) God knew that before he created man that they would eat of the tree of knowledge.
3.) God placed the tree of knowledge in the Garden anyway.
4.) God wanted sin to enter the world.
[Note: If God didn`t want sin to enter the world, why create Adam and Eve at all? He knew what would happen. Why place the forbidden trees in the Garden in the first place?]

18. If a spirit is non-physical but the human body is physical, how does a spirit stay in our bodies? - IG ON SPIRITS
1.) Spirits are not physical entities.
2.) Brains are physical entities.
3.) Past experiences are stored in our physical brains, we call that, Memory..
4.) Injury can damage portions of the physical brain that store memory and can alter or erase memories completely.
5.) If human spirits exist... after death, spirits can have no memory.
[Note: Some will say the spirit stores physical memories as well, but if true, the spirit would have to be physical at least to a degree. How could a non-physical spirit store, physical memories?]

19. Does God know his own future decisions? If God is all-knowing he actually shouldn't have any decisions to make at all. Nor can he choose anything over something else. For that would mean that he is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. In fact, he can't even think if this is the case. Since he can't DO anything, he might as well not exist. - IG ON GOD'S IMMUTABILITY - Unchangingness
1. If God exists, then he is immutable.
2. If God exists, then he is the creator of the universe.
3. An immutable being cannot at one time have an intention and then at a later time not have that intention.
4. For any being to create anything, prior to the creation he must have had the intention to create it, but at a later time, after the creation, no longer have the intention to create it.
5. Thus, it is impossible for an immutable being to have created anything (from 3 and 4).
6. Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1, 2, and 5) - Theodore M. Drange

20. If God is all-knowing, how could he be disappointed in His creation? -- [Note: Indeed, wouldn't God know that before the creation of our Universe what creatures would disappoint him? That being the case why create those creatures at all? Also, in knowing absolutely the behavior of humans before creation, God cannot be disappointed either... for this world is exactly as he has planned it to be. If it's not, why create us at all?]

21. God struck down the Tower of Babel angry at the intent of the people that built them, if this is the case, many of the great pyramids ( which are bigger than any ziggurat) around the world should be rubble also, yet many still stand today. Were not the Egyptians and many other ancient pyramid builders reaching toward God /The Heavens? - IG [Note: In actuality, many of the Pharaoh's believed that, via their pyramids, they would become God's themselves.]

22. In the watchmaker analogy, a watch is used to show us intelligent design and compares that to the Universe as evidence of design. We know watches are designed because we have past experience with watches, as well as with other man made objects. My question is: What Universe is the Intelligent Design proponent using to compare this Universe with to draw such an analogy? What God did he see create a Universe? - IG

23. Why did God flood the earth to remove evil? It didn't work! Evil came right back, God should have known that would happen! So why did He bother? - PhineasBg [Note: A good example of how quickly sin returned, was Noah getting drunk just after they discovered land.]

24. If the garden of Eden was a perfect paradise as xians claim, then why did Eve even want to eat the fruit? Wouldn't a perfect place provide everything a person would want or desire and thus she would want nothing? - keyser soze [Note: Why were the trees there in the first place? Of course they love to throw the serpent into the equation. But ummm..who let the serpent into the Garden?... and why would God create such a creature knowing he would cause man's fall? Hmm.. God must have wanted the fall to happen.]

25. Why would an all-powerful god become flesh in order to sacrifice himself to himself so that his creation might escape the wrath of himself. Couldn't god, in his infinite wisdom, come up with something a little more efficient? - ON THE BODY OF CHRIST
1.) God?s flesh was known as Jesus.
2.) Flesh cannot enter into Heaven (according to Paul)
3.) God is no longer Jesus.
4.) Jesus doesn?t exist.

(Note: Many at this point will state that the spirit lives on so therefore Jesus lives. This really depends on what you believe about Jesus. Is Jesus the son of God or God in flesh? If Jesus is merely the son there is no problem.However, if Jesus ?is? God himself, we do. You see, Jesus is called Jesus because of the attribute of Flesh. If Jesus = God (who is spirit) then the entity known as Jesus ceases to exist. The flesh/body of Jesus, no longer exists and the spirit of God is still the unchanging spirit of God. No Jesus at that point. The Flesh, called Jesus, is dead.)

26. After 9/11 a lot of people have been tossing around " god bless america". Why do they keep saying this? From the looks of it god hasn't blessed anything. If god had blessed america, the 9/11 event would've never happened. Theists seem to give the answer of "everything is part of gods big plan". If everything is part of gods big plan, why are we after Bin Laden? Wasn't he and other terrorists just carrying out gods desired plan? So it seems that Bin Laden/ terrorism isnt our enemy, but god . - [Note: Unfortunately many religious nuts believe they are fulfilling their God's plan by going to war.]

27. Christians say that God is NOT the author of confusion. Can you say, Tower of Babel? - The Screaming Monkeys

28. If Noah's flood supposedly covered the earth for a year, regardless of whether or not all the animals could fit on the ark, what the heck happened to all the plants? Can you imagine a cactus surviving under 4 miles of water for a year? I can't either! - Kyle Giblet [Note: With God all things are possible. Oh wait, except in Judges 1:19.]

29. The highest rainfall ever recorded in a 24 hour period was 47inches in the Reunion Islands in 1947 (during a severe tropical storm). To cover the whole earth to a depth of 5.6 miles, and cover the mountain tops (i.e. Mount Everest), it would need to rain at a rate of 372 (three hundred and seventy two) inches per hour, over the entire surface of the earth. Can rain fall at such an astronomical rate? Where did all the water come from?? Where did it all go to??? And would not the dynamics of the earth be so out of balance (tides etc.) that the earth would become so unstable that it would wobble off into outer space???? -

30. What do Muslim women get in Paradise? - IG [Note: Some Muslims I have interviewed about this say that Muslim women will get the same thing men get or equal value. Smiling Oh really? So Muslim women will get 72 virgin men? lol. If Muslim men get 72 virgins, where are all these virgin women coming from? What of their freewill? Is Allah creating these women to be slaves to the men in Paradise?]

31. In the "Last Days" Jesus is supposed to appear in the clouds. How are the Christians on the opposite end of the world going to see him? Are there going to be millions of Jesus'? What about people that work underground? What about people in deep space? -

32. The Bible says that God is a jealous God . How is this an example of a moral absolute of which man is supposed to follow? - IG ON GOD`S JEALOUSY
1.) "God is love." 1 John 4:8.
2.) "Love is not jealous." 1 Cor 13:4
3.) "I, the Lord thy God, am a jealous God." Exodus 20:5.
4.) The Christian god cannot logically exist.
(NOte: Basically love is NOT jealous, yet god is jealous, then God can`t be love. But if god IS love he cannot be jealous. Be he is.)

33. A true Muslim man is not supposed to do anything that the prophet Muhammad didn't do. If one remembers there was a big debate over whether or not Muslims should eat Mangos. If this is true, why in the Hell were these Islamic Fundamentalists flying airplanes? - IG

34. If the earth was covered by a complete global flood, every living creature killed except those surviving on the ark, why are there many completely unique animal species in Australia that are found no where else indigenously on the earth? -

35. If god is omniscient and " god is love," why would he allow a child to be conceived, knowing that that child would one day reject him and spend eternity burning in a lake of fire?- TiredTurkeyProd

36. Revelations is supposed to take place on Earth. What if we colonize the moon or Mars or inhabit a self-sustaining space station? Do we escape "judgement"? -- Ray Sommers [Note: No we don't Ray... and of course we all know that if there is any intelligent life out there besides us, they are all going to Hell too. Eye-wink]

37. Isaiah 40:28 says, "...the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is he weary?" If this is true, why did God rest on the seventh day?- IG

38. Everytime I go to a funeral the preacher and guests always say that " God " has called that person to Heaven or they say, " God said it was time to come home", or some such variation. If God is calling these people "home", why are we putting the murderers of these victims in prison? How can we punish a man or woman for doing God's will? - IG

39. Does God have a gender? In most churches, God is predominately referred to as a "he"? - IG [Note: The Bible says God is male, but what does this mean? Does God have a penis? Does he have hormones that dictate his gender? Smiling]

40. Why can't we wait until we get to Heaven to worship God ? Why would it be too late? - IG

41. What is the purpose of prayer? What can a finite being on Earth possibly tell an omnipotent, omniscient deity that he doesn't know already? - IG ON PRAYER
1.) Humans can?t change God?s mind for he has a divine plan and is unchangeable.
2.) Prayer can't change God's mind.
3.) Prayer doesn't change anything.
(Prayer may make you feel better emotionally, but it doesn`t change God`s mind.)

42. Some say Jesus was the all-knowing God. Jesus would have known then that when he died he'd be in heaven in less than 3 days to rule. If Jesus is alive and ruling today, what did he sacrifice? -- Cyndy Hammond

43. God knows that men are sinners, untrustworthy and evil, why does God leave it up to fallible man (clergy..etc) to teach others about his word? Why would he put our eternal souls at risk if he loves us so much? - The Infidel Guy and Danno778

44. Did Adam have nipples? If so, how did he acquire them? In fact, why would God give "later man" nipples at all? They serve no purpose other than lactation. Some say pleasure. Where is that in Genesis exactly? All mammals have nipples as well, are theirs pleasureful for them too? Many men don't find their nipples pleasurable at all. - IG

45. How did Adam and Eve know it was wrong to disobey God if they hadn't eaten of the tree of knowledge (of good and evil) yet? You can't blame them if they didn't know. - IG

46. If God has such a tremendous problem with uncircumcised penises, why did he make man with foreskin in the first place? - IG [Note: Some say, "So God can recognize his chosen people." Recognize? Is God so stupid that he has to physically look at men's penises? If not God, do other men need to? lol.]

47. Did Noah have fish onboard? Salt or Fresh? Since fresh water fish would die in salt, and salt water fish would die in fresh, only one type of fish would survive. Yet....?" - Frank Monaco

48. Why does the omnipotent, omnipresent God need help from man or angels to spread his word or do acts? - IG [Note: Some say God doesn't need help. But apparently he does.] - IG

49. How did Jesus ascend to Heaven in the Flesh when Paul says that flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of Heaven? (1 Cor.15:50) - IG [Note: Some say, well Paul said that and not Jesus. Yet they quote Paul when it suits there purposes.]

50. If God wants us to live right and choose "the good," why did he create evil? (Isaiah 45:6,7) Not to mention he already knows which people are not going to choose "the good" so why create those people in the first place? It seems that many people are born to go to Hell. - IG ON HELL
1.) God is all-knowing.
2.) Before I was born God knew I wouldn?t believe in him.
3.) I was born to go to Hell.
(Sure you may say I have a choice, but I think I`ve proven already that I really don`t. I`m simply fulfilling the will of God by being an atheist aren`t I? If I`m not, I shouldn`t exist: For God would have known that before I was created that I wouldn`t believe in him.)

51. I hear Christians all the time speaking of a spiritual war between Heaven and Hell, if this is true does God have limitations of power? Man only conducts wars because of our limitations of power and foresight. God has both all-power and all-knowledge, no reason for war of any kind. - IG

52. The Bible is full of phrases beginning with, "and the lord saw". Didn't he know before hand? - IG

53. How can a psychologist condone belief in something not proven to exist, when people are put into mental institutions on a daily basis for the same thing? i.e. aliens, fairies, imaginary people (Multiple Personality Disorders..)? - Dan Denton [Note: I'm sure that some of the pious believe that they are improperly placed there as well Dan. Smiling]

54. If Christians say they know God exists and that he will work miracles, what do they need faith for? Faith is not knowing. - IG

55. Brain, or shall I say, body transplants, will eventually be possible, where would the soul be then? Where is the soul? - IG

56. If God really wants us to know him, why doesn't he place the knowledge of him in our minds at birth? The same way many theists believe that God implants our sense of right and wrong in us a right birth. - IG

57. If God was Jesus' father (not Joseph), then why is Jesus' family tree traced through Joseph? -- Cyndy Hammond

58. What image of God was man made from? Couldn't have been a moral one or physical one. - IG [Note: One would suspect that an image of God would be perfect and cannot sin. Oops.]

59. Why can't God appear before everyone at the same time? Everyone in the world would then "know" he exists and not have solely "believe". And please, don't say he already tried that. Surely a God knows exactly what to do to convince a measly human of his existence. - IG

60. According to the New Testament Matthew 5:17 says "Do not suppose that I have come to abolish the Law and the prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to complete. I tell you this: so long as heaven and earth endure, not a letter, not a stroke, will disappear from the Law until all that must happen has Happened." So since Jesus has not returned the "Law" is still in effect, so why aren't we still burning witches, stoning adulterers and disobedient children, killing homosexuals, ostracizing people that work on the Sabbath (nurses, doctors etc.), flinging blood onto the horns of the alter, pulling off the heads of small birds, and don't forget human sacrifice to God (Leviticus 27 P.28 )? -- Sheila L. Chambers

61. If there is freewill in Heaven yet everyone has chosen good and is happy, isn't that proof that God could have made us with freewill, choosing good ( God ) and still being happy on Earth? - Dennis Hendrix [Note: In other words, evil didn't have to exist after all. Hey wait, even in Heaven apparently, evil can exist. At least for a short while. Satan became evil and was in heaven. Apparently he even had enough time to form an Army against God. Wow. Maybe Heaven won't be as peaceful as many believe.]

62. Why does God have a plan? Man is limited in power so we make plans because we are not all-knowing nor all-powerful. If God has a plan, isn't he reduced to a mere finite being? - IG

63. How could the all-merciful/loving God watch billions of his children burn over and over again for eternity? - IG [Note: Of course this is geared to those that believe in a fiery hell. I am well aware that not all Christians believe in a fiery Hell.]

64. Before reading and writing were invented (5000BC), on what basis did God use to judge the people who died before the Hebrew and Greek text (BIBLE) were written? -- [Note: They are all roasting in Hell. Smiling]

65. Many Christians tell me that I will "burn in hell". If I have a soul, how can a soul burn? Aren't souls non-physical entities? - IG [Note: Some Christians groups believe that you will be given new bodies after judgement. However, if true, what's the significance of a spirit in the first place?]

66. How can one hold to the barbaric belief that something has to DIE in order to appease a god for a bad deed? -- Nickolaus Wing [Note: Because an old book says so Nick.]

67. Why does SIDS (Sudden Infant Death Syndrome) occur? Why would God allow a baby to live for such a short period of time? Why not just let them not be born in the first place? -- Terry Clark [Note: This actually happened to a friend of mine. Not even God himself could console her.]

68. If Jesus was nailed and died on Friday evening, and walked out of the tomb on Sunday morning, where's the 3rd NIGHT he predicted? Per Matthew 12:40: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. -

69. Many Christians claim that hell is merely existence outside of God ?s presence (C.S. Lewis among others). If this is the case, then Jesus could not have descended into hell (being God Himself). As a result, are you sure your sins are forgiven? - Byron Bultsma

70. Ten to twenty percent of all women who discover they are pregnant suffer a miscarriage. Also, it is estimated that anywhere from 14 to 50 percent of all pregnancies end in miscarriage. Seeing this is all part of God 's plan, does this make God the world's number one abortion provider? - Jim

71. What if, when you get to Heaven, you saw God causing pain and suffering out of anger or for the purpose of entertaining himself. What if he required people in heaven to praise and worship him non-stop even to the point of causing his worshipers discomfort, pain and boredom. What if, when he was bored, angry, or jealous, he would create natural disasters to make himself feel better. Would you still follow him? - Fernando [Note: Of course they would Fernando, many people followed Hitler out of fear as well.]

72. In Leviticus, the bible condemns homosexuality as an "abomination", giving some Christians a reason to hate, harass, torture and kill gays and even picket their funderals with " God hates fags" signs. In the same book of the bible the eating of shellfish is equally an "abomination". Are these Christians planning to go after the patrons of Red Lobster next? - [Note: hee-hee, that's all I can say. Jewish Law states that eating Fish without scales is an abomination and thus the Shark is one among the list. However, sharks do have scales, Placoid scales, one of the many reasons why a shark is called a Fish .]

73. Christians will tell you that if a baby dies it goes to heaven. Why then are they so against abortion? All the child is being deprived of is the opportunity to go to hell. Either that or god expects unborn fetuses to accept Jesus. -

74. If one could prove to you incontrovertibly that Jesus and God were all human fabrications would still believe? And why? - LOGICnREASON [Note: If you say yes. Then you are not concerned with the truth, you simply WANT to believe; and if you WANT to believe, indeed, there is nothing anyone can tell you..]

75. It is often said that God allows evil because one could not meaningfully appreciate good without experiencing its opposite. Why is it necessary to experience the opposite of something in order to appreciate it? Must I experience death in order to meaningfully appreciate life? -excidius

76. Bible literalists want you to believe that God's Word in the Bible is meant to be taken literally. If this is the case, why was Jesus fond of explaining things in parable and metaphor? Was Jesus literally discussing the biology of mustard seeds, or was the mustard seed parable meant to be interpreted figuratively as faith? -excidius

77. Liberal Christians say some parts of the Bible are literally true, but much else is to be interpreted figuratively as allegory. How do you know which is which? What distinguishing criteria are used? How can you be certain "God" is a literal and not a figurative concept? -excidius

78. Consciousness is the result of a physical brain, how could God being metaphysical be said to be conscious or sentient without having a brain? - Mindless

79. Considering how Leviticus is considered old law, and that Christians do not obey it anymore, why do they always use it to defend homosexuality being an "abomination"? -Bohorquez

80. If God is omnipotent and he has a plan ... then why did he not create the universe as it will be one second after the plan has succeeded? Who or what prevented him from doing that? - Timothy Campbell (http://www.tc123.com)

81. The large majority of people who have ever existed could not have learned of the Bible or Jesus Christ. And many people afterwards have found other religions or no religion at all to be more convincing, sometimes while being very virtuous. Do all these people really deserve eternal torment because of that? -- lpetrich

82. The above arguments also apply among different sects of Christianity, many of which state that most others are not True Christianity. -- lpetrich

83. Is it reasonable for the Creator and Ruler of such a vast Universe to be preoccupied with the sexuality of a species living on a tiny little planet? -- lpetrich

84. If the Christian god was all loving and all knowing why did he let religious figures such as Mohammed or Gautama Budda be born, knowing that they would mislead people from the 'true' faith and trick the majority of the world's population into burning forever in hell (in fact, if Islam didn't start, most of the middle east would probably be Christian). It would simple to use the Holy Spirit to guide them to Jesus and spread the 'true' faith. If the Holy Spirit exits, it certainly isn't doing it's job!

85. If one is obliged to follow all the teachings of the bible then why is engaging in homosexuality or adultery any worse than "suffering a witch to live", "muzzling the ox that treadeth the corn", "reaping the corners of thy field", "marring the corners of they beard", "plowing with an oxen and an ass", "hating thy brother in thy heart" or "eating frogs, shellfish and eels" ?

86. Exactly how did the alleged worldwide flood kill off all the world's sea creatures? How does one go about drowning a fish? -- Steever

87. Why did this alleged god create humans as an animal form of life that gets sick and dies and experiences pain and has a limited mind when 'it' could have created humans as a form of pure energy or of some indestructible material or whatever, and was totally ?sinless? and had ?pure? thought? If a god was omnipotent 'it' could have easily have done this. --AI

88. If a god is omnipotent how did 'it' fail to foresee that Satan would turn against 'it'? --AI

89. What is a god supposedly made of? --AI

This list was compiled by the Infidel Guy with submissions from many members of the atheist community.

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Adventfred
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Reddragon wrote:For number

Reddragon wrote:
For number 3: I guess what I was trying to say is that we can't realy know where the Bible's account of the beginning of man took place. This is because we don't know if the current Euphrates river is the same as the old pre-flood one.

 

What flood ?


FurryCatHerder
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Vastet wrote:Your pettiness

Vastet wrote:
Your pettiness also tempts me so dearly to start correcting your basic spelling errors. At least when I make them I have the excuse of not having a spell checker. You however apparently have a real nice computer, I suggest you learn how to use it properly, in between your irrelevant ad hominems of course.

I'm a Software Engineer with a background in several other engineering (Electrical and Mechanical, to name two) disciplines, all of which involve heavy use and understanding of the physical sciences, and especially Physics.  So, yeah, I have nice computers.  If you weren't a misogynistic prick, I might have been convinced to drop you one in the mail.  Surface mail to Canada is less than a tank of gas and I have old computers I don't use literally lying around my house.  Kinda makes you wish you hadn't treated me like crap, doesn't it?  Fail much?

Vastet wrote:
FurryCatHerder wrote:
"I judge people based on their knowledge and integrity. ~ Just saying."

I judge people based on how they present themselves in debate, how they treat others, and how delusional their beliefs are. You fail on all three. Perhaps not getting stoned has eroded your capacity for constructive conversation and common decency, and helped box your mind in foolishness.

My ad hominems aren't at all irrelevant, they are based on your belief that you're capable of discussing "Logic" with someone who uses "Logic" on a daily basis, and then making the mistake of trying to engage in male dominance plays on someone who really doesn't care how badly she trashes people like you.  You could have been treated well, but you've got the same attitude towards Theists that most fundie Christians have towards anyone who isn't a fundie Christian.  You treated me with contempt, I try to make sure that my responses to you drip with contempt -- and I do my best to point out that you're a miserable human being and a flagrant liar.

Is religion a delusional belief system?  Depends.  In large part, it depends on what one does with their religious beliefs.  A person who believes that the Earth is 5,770 years old (the current Jewish calendar year -- just to put a number on things) in spite of all the physical evidence to the contrary?  Definitely deluded.  But a person who thinks that religious beliefs are part of a natural system of human morality in which human beings, as social animals, are supposed to care for each other and help each other through this thing called "life"?  I'd say they've got a good grasp on the basics.  Not all religions are of the "You had better believe in my god or I'm going to kill you!" variety, nor do they advocate complete ignorance of Science the way fundamentalist Christians have refined that into an art form.

In Judaism, unlike what Christians think about Judaism, it's more important how we treat the disadvantaged ("poor, widow, orphan, stranger in your land&quotEye-wink than how kosher we keep.  In other religions, the belief systems are based on improving ones relationships with others so that adherents have a chance to come back in a higher state or status, or perhaps escape the physical realm and moving into a higher one.  They aren't just about "my god can beat up your god" or "no matter what I do, I'm going to heaven and you suck."  Still other religions have nothing at all to do with any kind of "divinity" or "divine beings", they are about personal development and self-awareness.

In your case, you believe you can treat people like dirt all in the name of advancing your Uber-Atheist Religion and it's going to Work Out for you.  No, it isn't going to "Work Out".  In that way, "Atheism" and fundie Christianity are both alike -- treat people like crap and it's all going to be OK.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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Vastet wrote:Oops, I missed

Vastet wrote:
Oops, I missed one.

FurryCatHerder wrote:
"Then why did you, just a few posts up, compare me AGAIN to Christians?  Did Satan (not that Jews believe in "Satan" ) make you do it?"

More like because you're acting like one.

Care to quantify or qualify that?  Have I told you that you're going to die and go to Hell?  That if you just believe in Moses you'll be saved?  You're a big sinner?  I'd really like to know, because usually my lack of regard for Christianity gets me accused of being an atheist.

Vastet wrote:
FurryCatHerder wrote:
"I'm still waiting on the "Love-O-Meter" or at least a journal article which claims to explain how to measure "Love"."

Which is a strawman of what I said at best, a demonstration of complete ignorance of biology at worst. So I continue to ignore your irrelevant commentary.

Do you know what a "Straw Man" argument IS?  No, serious question -- what do you THINK a "Straw Man" argument is?  Because I can tell you that insisting you present a proof that "Love" can be measured is NOT a "Straw Man" argument.

Vastet wrote:
FurryCatHerder wrote:
"I've also proven that you just plain have NO clue what "Logic" is about."
Quite the opposite. You made fallacy after fallacy, and then whined like a baby and had a temper tantrum after I pointed it out.

Do you know the difference between Logic and Rhetoric?  Do you know what a Logical Fallacy is?  I certainly don't think you're the end-all-be-all of the Atheist / Theist debate, so I'm definitely not attacking your ignorance in order to "prove" I'm somehow "right".  That would be a Straw Man argument -- pretending you know enough about Theism or even Atheism -- that besting you proves me right.  Rather, I think you know so little about either topic that the best you could do is simply shut up and let someone with a better grasp of both reply.

Adding insult to the "Straw Man" claim, is that "Religion" and all other philosophical topics, are outside the domain of "Logic".  Logic can't be used to prove (or disprove) any thing that is a "thought" or a "feeling" or a "belief".  Knowing that, and knowing that it has nothing to do with "religion is illogical" -- "atheism" is just as "illogical" as theism -- is another reason I wouldn't even waste my time on a Straw Man argument with you.  It's like all the logical "arguments" in the first post of this thread -- did "IG" really think he or she was constructing VALID, LOGICAL arguments?  Regardless of whether or not I believe in G-d, or the Christian pantheon of gods, most of what is in that post are one logical fallacy after the next.  Most of those fallacies are based on Psychological Projection -- "If =I= were an omnipotent god, that's what =I= would do."

My guess is that you saw "Logical Fallacy" on a debate board one day and thought that passed for understanding what a Logical Fallacy IS.  And to be rather blunt about it, if you don't agree (and anyone reading this who's studied Logic formally should agree right about now) that most of what's in the first post of this thread is a sequence of logical fallacies, then you've really demonstrated your ignorance.

You made the claim that "Love" can be measured because it's a biological process.  All I'm asking you to do is prove it.  I'm more than happy to rub your nose in the fact that you have no clue, and wouldn't even have a clue about finding a clue.

Most of what goes on in the brain can't be measured in terms of neurotransmitters -- it's encoded in the connections between neurons.  Most of the neural pathways aren't directly accessible, even in terms of thought -- they require stimulus to re-activate.  Our brains are associative, in that sense -- pictures, places, things, people, those stimuli trigger memories which can include thoughts, feelings and emotions.  But to suggest that you can "measure" "Love" absent that entire process is pure folly and demonstrates an incredible amount of ignorance about how the brain actually works.  And since it's impossible to map the neural network, much less what the neural network actually DOES, measuring "Love" is just plain impossible.

And even IF -- big IF -- you were able to measure neurotransmitters associated with "Love", you'd still have to exclude "... but because of his affair with Sally, even though I have those old feelings about Bob, he's a no good cheatin' SOB and I hate his guts!"  So, more epic FAIL on your part.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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FurryCatHerder wrote:Paul

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Paul was a creature of his times.  He was a Hellenized Jew and a fairly disobedient member of the Jerusalem community that existed in the 40's.  Acts records where Paul was told to quit inventing a new religion, and stick to the basic ethical values that the Torah applies to all non-Jews.  Paul told Peter and James to get stuffed, then he went out and invented Christianity.

Meanwhile, Peter abandoned the community and went back to being a garden variety Jew and James was stoned for being too Jewish in 55CE, if I remember correctly.  By the 60's, Paul had strayed so far with his band of followers that his entire group of followers were excommunicated.

All that, for what it's worth, is completely historical.  The only part that relies on Christian texts is where Paul was told to quit preaching his made-up religion to Jews, and limit his teachings to normative Jewish beliefs to the non-Jews he was going after.  Since its supported by what's recorded outside the Christian texts, I tend to assume its correct.

If James mentioned in the NT is the same James called James the Just he was killed about 62 CE as reported in historical accounts.

Paul even in the NT accounts as you mentioned demonstrated he could care less about the Jesus believers views in Jerusalem, until he was called on the carpet by James. One should note that after Paul the deceiver is taken into (protective?) custody by the Romans the Jesus believers are never mentioned again having anything to do with the Roman spy Paul. The Jesus believers seem to be a group that were in some ways similar to the Zealots or other groups that were basically what I'd call "Kingdom of God" movement that were rebelling against Roman/Hellenism that was poisoning Judea and the people with paganism. Christians influenced by the deceiver Paul denounce any possibility or connection to these groups though one has but to compare the ideology expressed by the Jesus portrayed in the NT Gospels to these movements to see the similarity.

Paul on the other hand was no way ever a Pharisee as he used the Septuagint as his source not the Hebrew. He even associated with the high priests that were Herodians that were the puppet servants of the Romans  while Pharisees disassociated themselves from both at least from what I understand from the Talmud. Paul's writing is Gnostic and pagan not at all what one would expect from a Pharisee. Jesus in contrast seems to exhibit the attributes of a Pharisee or teacher/scholar in the NT Gospels especially in his use of parables and logic. Paul constantly takes his arguments beyond the premise which is not what Pharisees did, at least according to my understanding.

 

 

____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.


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Furry/Vastet: Can you two

Furry/Vastet:

 

Can you two compare ePenis somewhere else and let this thread focus on religion?

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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Oh, Furry:  Surely you have

Oh, Furry:  Surely you have some definition of God?  I listened to a debate that included a Rabbi a little while ago and when asked for what he believed in he waxed poetic about his deity, but he never actually *said* anything.

Is that all there is?  How do you discuss God without even a loose definition?  Can you explain it to a non-Jew in a way that makes sense?

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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mellestad wrote:Oh, Furry: 

mellestad wrote:

Oh, Furry:  Surely you have some definition of God?  I listened to a debate that included a Rabbi a little while ago and when asked for what he believed in he waxed poetic about his deity, but he never actually *said* anything.

Is that all there is?  How do you discuss God without even a loose definition?  Can you explain it to a non-Jew in a way that makes sense?

Nope, no definition.

G-d in Judaism isn't something that people sit around describing and defining in the same way that Christians have all these unscriptural beliefs about "God" and Jesus and the Holy Ghost, and how this happened that way or some other way.

The focus in Judaism is on ACTION, not on BELIEF.  That's part of why Jews aren't out to make you be Jewish, but are interested in people treating others with dignity.  Not a Jew?  Fine -- at least be a good person.  If a Jew keeps meticulously kosher, prays 3 times a day (more on the Sabbath and holy days), and treats others poorly -- bad Jew.  If a non-Jew is out there making the world a better place, caring for others, treating people with dignity -- better than the bad Jew.

So, if that's what Judaism is about -- making the world a more just and more compassionate planet to live on -- what do you need a "Definition" of G-d for?  Is it going to convince you that you need to do these things?  Shouldn't you do all that ANYWAY just because you're a human being?  And if that's what Judaism is about, what beef does an Atheist have with a religion whose purpose is "fixing" what's broken with this planet?

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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"A CoCo2 with ~ audio

"A CoCo2 with ~ audio cassette tape."

You just feel free to go off on irrelevant tangents while my ownage of your arguments and character remain untouched. I could rip that apart, but I don't feel the need to argue about ancient computer history in a topic about questions to theists in general. Smiling

"I'm a Software Engineer with a ~ Fail much?"

And yet you don't even know how to use a basic spell-checker. Pathetic. Who do you work for, Zimbabwe? lol.
Yeah, I'm really going to believe that a bitch with a chip on her shoulder the size of Israel who jumps in with baseless attacks and fallacies up the ying yang is going to send me a computer. Like I'd have given you my address anyway. And even if the first two were different, it wouldn't necessarily help. I'm not going to bother explaining why, because it's besides the point and none of your business.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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"My ad hominems aren't at

"My ad hominems aren't at all irrelevant ~ being and a flagrant liar."

Yes, they are. It is in fact worse than ad hominem for the vast majority of them. Your use of appeal to ridicule/authority (to name two) and attempts to piss me off so I lose my composure and swing blindly come off as quite childish. If you are older than I, then you have a lot of growing up to do.

"Is religion a delusional belief system?  Depends."

Amazing. Are you actually about to start a rational discussion?

"In large part ~ Definitely deluded."

I agree.

"But a person who thinks that ~ on the basics."

I partially agree, but think you oversimplify religion. Most or all religions have a moral code, yes. But that doesn't necessarily mean that is their purpose. I suggest you read my essay Religion Endangers Humanity And Its Future for a better understanding of my views. I'll grant you ahead of time that it does not necessarily apply to all...

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religions, and that I

religions, and that I generalised a fair bit, so you don't take things the wrong way.

"Not all religions are of the "You had better believe in my god or I'm going to kill you!" variety, nor do they advocate complete ignorance of Science the way fundamentalist Christians have refined that into an art form."

Not even all christians dispute science, so again I agree.

"In Judaism, unlike what Christians think about Judaism, it's more important how we treat the disadvantaged ("poor, widow, orphan, stranger in your land&quot than how kosher we keep."

Laudable, though I'd suggest there are probably some christians who know your religion better than you think. exnihlio there only understands his own position, but I've met many christians who are much less narrow minded.

"In other religions, the ~ development and self-awareness."

Agreed, but you don't see me attacking wiccans and buddhists on their own forums. This site generally ensnares the aggressive and disgusting religions, because only they....

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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(for the most part) feel the

(for the most part) feel the need to defend their truth from "teh ebil athiests!!one". Case in point: You are the first practicing jew I've encountered here in three years. I still haven't seen a wiccan or buddhist. We do have a worshipper of the Germanic and Roman religions if I'm recalling her beliefs correctly, but she doesn't put a lot of effort into defending her beliefs, and doesn't try to force them on others. We still haven't bumped heads, and are unlikely to from my estimation.

"Care to quantify or qualify that?  Have I told you that you're going to die and go to Hell?  That if you just believe in Moses you'll be saved?  You're a big sinner?  I'd really like to know, because usually my lack of regard for Christianity gets me accused of being an atheist."

Your bitchy attitude. Though it seems we might be able to get over first impressions at this time. This sequence of my responses will put some effort into that from this point on, but the rest is up to you.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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"Do you know what a "Straw

"Do you know what a "Straw Man" argument IS?"

Yes, and you presented one. I never claimed love itself could be measured, I claimed the source of love can be measured. ie: hormones, psychology, endorphins, etc.

"I certainly don't think you're the end-all-be-all of the Atheist / Theist debate, so I'm definitely not attacking your ignorance in order to "prove" I'm somehow "right". "

Good, because I'm not. And I never claimed to be. But your attacks certainly gave that appearence. You went on a hunt for old information in a failed attempt to discredit me today, without even looking at other information which supports my qualifications. That would be confirmation bias.

"That would be a Straw Man argument -- pretending you know enough about Theism or even Atheism -- that besting you proves me right."

That wouldn't be a strawman per say. A strawman is when an opponent makes up an argument to destroy it when the created argument is not equal to the actual argument. Basically, what most creationists do to assail

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evolution.

evolution.

"Adding insult to the "Straw Man" claim, is that "Religion" and all other philosophical topics, are outside the domain of "Logic". Logic can't be used to prove (or disprove) any thing that is a "thought" or a "feeling" or a "belief"."

Except that I use logic to defeat claims, not beliefs or thoughts or feelings. When a christian asserts that their god exists, and attempts to use the bible to prove it, I am well within the realm of reason to apply logic to defeat said claims. It doesn't necessarily follow that I'm attacking the belief itself, merely the argument that was used.

""atheism" is just as "illogical" as theism"

Not true. It's entirely logical to assume nothing beyond the evident.

"And since it's impossible to map the ~ just plain impossible."

That is a baseless assumption. Progress in mapping the brain has continued with leaps and bounds all of my life. Perhaps it is impossible to map the brain and genome

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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completely, but there is as

completely, but there is as yet no indicator that such is the case.

mellestad wrote:

Furry/Vastet:

 

Can you two compare ePenis somewhere else and let this thread focus on religion?

In the words of Doomy: finger

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Vastet wrote:completely, but

Vastet wrote:
completely, but there is as yet no indicator that such is the case.
mellestad wrote:

Furry/Vastet:

 

Can you two compare ePenis somewhere else and let this thread focus on religion?

In the words of Doomy: finger

Do you know why I believe in G-d?  I believe in G-d because I'm a good and decent person and I've never wanted for anything I need.  And that includes being close to living on the street and having to turn tricks to keep a roof over my head.  People I've know who are assholes, they usually wind up screwed.  No one wants to help them, because they've never helped anyone else.  They don't have connections with the people who COULD help them, because they've never reached out to anyone but themselves.

I've been involved in disaster relief, rescue and recovery, and all manner of other things.  I actively work to make this planet a better place for others.  And one of the things I do, because I go through computers like water, is I give them away.

You, you insulted and attempted to humiliate me for no other reason than because I showed up.  You brag about things you really just don't know about.  You need a computer.  You aren't going to get one from the one person who really could drop one in the mail to you -- if only you weren't a schmuck.

People like you are why I believe in G-d.  Because even if there isn't really a G-d out there, the morals and values my religion teaches, seem to happen anyway.  G-d or not, good and decent people tend to be cared for when they are down on their luck.  G-d or not, jerks and assholes tend to get screwed.  The fact that you don't think a total stranger in the computer biz would send you one tells me that you've been a jerk and an asshole long enough that no one has probably ever done much of anything for you.

Human nature doesn't require "G-d" to work, but getting people to think of others and telling them "G-d said so" tends to work better.  Which is another reason I believe in G-d.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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FurryCatHerder

FurryCatHerder wrote:

mellestad wrote:

Oh, Furry:  Surely you have some definition of God?  I listened to a debate that included a Rabbi a little while ago and when asked for what he believed in he waxed poetic about his deity, but he never actually *said* anything.

Is that all there is?  How do you discuss God without even a loose definition?  Can you explain it to a non-Jew in a way that makes sense?

Nope, no definition.

G-d in Judaism isn't something that people sit around describing and defining in the same way that Christians have all these unscriptural beliefs about "God" and Jesus and the Holy Ghost, and how this happened that way or some other way.

The focus in Judaism is on ACTION, not on BELIEF.  That's part of why Jews aren't out to make you be Jewish, but are interested in people treating others with dignity.  Not a Jew?  Fine -- at least be a good person.  If a Jew keeps meticulously kosher, prays 3 times a day (more on the Sabbath and holy days), and treats others poorly -- bad Jew.  If a non-Jew is out there making the world a better place, caring for others, treating people with dignity -- better than the bad Jew.

So, if that's what Judaism is about -- making the world a more just and more compassionate planet to live on -- what do you need a "Definition" of G-d for?  Is it going to convince you that you need to do these things?  Shouldn't you do all that ANYWAY just because you're a human being?  And if that's what Judaism is about, what beef does an Atheist have with a religion whose purpose is "fixing" what's broken with this planet?

 

If there is no definition why pray?  Why call it prayer?  What use is the word God if it doesn't mean anything coherant?  I get that you can make the belief system about action and not theology, but obviously there is a supernatural component at some level...so would you label yourself as a secular Jew, or are there supernatural/mystical claims about Jewish history or modern belief that you would stand up for?

Is your lack of a definition a core Jewish doctrine, or is it specific to you or a sub-category of Judiasm?

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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FurryCatHerder wrote:Vastet

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Vastet wrote:
completely, but there is as yet no indicator that such is the case.
mellestad wrote:

Furry/Vastet:

 

Can you two compare ePenis somewhere else and let this thread focus on religion?

In the words of Doomy: finger

Do you know why I believe in G-d?  I believe in G-d because I'm a good and decent person and I've never wanted for anything I need.  And that includes being close to living on the street and having to turn tricks to keep a roof over my head.  People I've know who are assholes, they usually wind up screwed.  No one wants to help them, because they've never helped anyone else.  They don't have connections with the people who COULD help them, because they've never reached out to anyone but themselves.

I've been involved in disaster relief, rescue and recovery, and all manner of other things.  I actively work to make this planet a better place for others.  And one of the things I do, because I go through computers like water, is I give them away.

You, you insulted and attempted to humiliate me for no other reason than because I showed up.  You brag about things you really just don't know about.  You need a computer.  You aren't going to get one from the one person who really could drop one in the mail to you -- if only you weren't a schmuck.

People like you are why I believe in G-d.  Because even if there isn't really a G-d out there, the morals and values my religion teaches, seem to happen anyway.  G-d or not, good and decent people tend to be cared for when they are down on their luck.  G-d or not, jerks and assholes tend to get screwed.  The fact that you don't think a total stranger in the computer biz would send you one tells me that you've been a jerk and an asshole long enough that no one has probably ever done much of anything for you.

Human nature doesn't require "G-d" to work, but getting people to think of others and telling them "G-d said so" tends to work better.  Which is another reason I believe in G-d.

 

Saw this after my post.  So when an atheist says typical human morality is the result of empathy that can be explained, in a broad sense, through evolutionary means do you accept that or do you think there is an objective source of morality that trancends the physical?

 

@Vast: I said that because you both seemed intelligent but now you both sound like schoolyard children calling each other names and trying to score points with who has better nerd cred.  If either person took the high ground and moved on it might make their observable IQ jump a couple points.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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mellestad wrote:If there is

mellestad wrote:

If there is no definition why pray?  Why call it prayer?  What use is the word God if it doesn't mean anything coherant?  I get that you can make the belief system about action and not theology, but obviously there is a supernatural component at some level...so would you label yourself as a secular Jew, or are there supernatural/mystical claims about Jewish history or modern belief that you would stand up for?

Is your lack of a definition a core Jewish doctrine, or is it specific to you or a sub-category of Judiasm?

Why not?

Jewish prayer isn't like Christian prayer.  I'm off to get lunch and perhaps some coffee, then call clients.  You're free to look up whatever you'd like about Jewish prayer -- we all do pretty much the same thing morning (shacharit), afternoon (mincha) and evening (ma'ariv).

It's a lot more like "meditation" than anything else.  G-d doesn't need us to pray, after all -- we need us to pray.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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FurryCatHerder

FurryCatHerder wrote:

mellestad wrote:

If there is no definition why pray?  Why call it prayer?  What use is the word God if it doesn't mean anything coherant?  I get that you can make the belief system about action and not theology, but obviously there is a supernatural component at some level...so would you label yourself as a secular Jew, or are there supernatural/mystical claims about Jewish history or modern belief that you would stand up for?

Is your lack of a definition a core Jewish doctrine, or is it specific to you or a sub-category of Judiasm?

Why not?

Jewish prayer isn't like Christian prayer.  I'm off to get lunch and perhaps some coffee, then call clients.  You're free to look up whatever you'd like about Jewish prayer -- we all do pretty much the same thing morning (shacharit), afternoon (mincha) and evening (ma'ariv).

It's a lot more like "meditation" than anything else.  G-d doesn't need us to pray, after all -- we need us to pray.

 

That sounds fine.  If you have time after lunch, I am interested in this and the next post I made.  Thanks!

 

" I get that you can make the belief system about action and not theology, but obviously there is a supernatural component at some level...so would you label yourself as a secular Jew, or are there supernatural/mystical claims about Jewish history or modern belief that you would stand up for?

Is your lack of a definition a core Jewish doctrine, or is it specific to you or a sub-category of Judiasm?"

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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"Do you know why I believe

"Do you know why I believe in G-d? ~ anyone but themselves."

Why is that belief in god? I've had similar experiences to yourself. I too am a good and decent person at heart, which you may have found out sooner if you hadn't begun posting with the generalist claim that atheists were by implication stupid and uneducated. Verbatim, your fist paragraphs on the site:

"It would be nice if atheists were able to distinguish between "Christianity" and "Theism" because much of what is contained in all those questions is "Christianity" and not "Theism".
It would also be nice if atheists were able to read the texts in their original languages, and actually study and understand what those texts say, because quite often the texts do NOT say what is attributed to them when translated from the original languages into English."

That doesn't sound like a good person to me. It sounds like someone who has prejudged every atheist on the site to be an ignoramus. Which implies that you yourself are one.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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It sounds further like

It sounds further like someone who is guilty of the same generalist fallacy that she later uses for her own benefit to attack the OP. Not an impressive display of logic either.
So when considering you attack my use of a PS3, which isn't as far off from being an actual computer as you think, and THEN after all the BS you throw out you try to suggest you would offer me a computer? Regardless of whether you go through them like water. YOU pushed and pushed just to discover I didn't have one in the first place. I never brought it up on my own, and I never asked anyone for anything. Just drop it already. It really doesn't bother me much to put up with a few limitations for a system that is ridiculously more powerful and capable than any PC made for the same price.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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mellestad wrote:@Vast: I

mellestad wrote:
@Vast: I said that because you both ~ IQ jump a couple points.

One must practice a skill to retain its potency. Someone once said you can't troll a troll. Someone else said something about not being able to do so without getting dirty oneself. Well my experience is that trolls are the easiest people to troll. And I don't mind getting dirty. If I did, I wouldn't be able to talk with most theists at all. I'd get pissed off and make a fool of myself if I tried. So when I get dirty, I do it for the lulz. An awesome side benefit is that the troll gets mad at their fail and makes a fool of themselves in the process. No matter how dirty I get, they are equally so or greater. I have intellectual and logical destruction of arguments to point at in my favour, should an oberver question me. The troll cannot, so I auto-win. If an observer doesn't like it, they should keep in mind that the fight on dangerous theism requires all tactics short of violence; real or threatened, person or property.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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If my counter-assault

If my counter-assault reveals someone who was just venting, that's fine. I'll let go. But I won't back down from bullies and trolls. I destroy them.

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I still don't get it. I

I still don't get it. I don't understand how you can believe that something exists without defining it. But overall, you seem nice, open-minded, and a lot more knowledgeable than me on a wide variety of topics. So, I like you. I hope you stick around.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


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I'll try to limit my

I'll try to limit my questions, but I have a lot I would like to know before you turn into a pumpkin!

Would you agree, in general, with the 13 articles?  I think a big part of what confuses us is how 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 10 can exist without a God who at least has some defining character, or in some cases even  anthropomorphic charictaristics.  Granted, if you say you are a secular (Liberal?) Jew most of this will not be true, unless you can wiggle out of "God exists" by having a defninition so open it can be anything.
  1. God exists
  2. God is one and unique
  3. God is incorporeal
  4. God is eternal
  5. Prayer is to God only.
  6. The prophets spoke truth.
  7. Moses was the greatest of the prophets.
  8. The Written and Oral Torah were given to Moses.
  9. There will be no other Torah.
  10. God knows the thoughts and deeds of men.
  11. God will reward the good and punish the wicked.
  12. The Messiah will come.
  13. The dead will be resurrected.

 

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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*nt*

Double post.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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Vastet wrote:"Do you know

Vastet wrote:
"Do you know why I believe in G-d? ~ anyone but themselves." Why is that belief in god? I've had similar experiences to yourself. I too am a good and decent person at heart, which you may have found out sooner if you hadn't begun posting with the generalist claim that atheists were by implication stupid and uneducated. Verbatim, your fist paragraphs on the site: "It would be nice if atheists were able to distinguish between "Christianity" and "Theism" because much of what is contained in all those questions is "Christianity" and not "Theism". It would also be nice if atheists were able to read the texts in their original languages, and actually study and understand what those texts say, because quite often the texts do NOT say what is attributed to them when translated from the original languages into English." That doesn't sound like a good person to me. It sounds like someone who has prejudged every atheist on the site to be an ignoramus. Which implies that you yourself are one.

What?  Are you actually able to read Hebrew?  Are you aware enough of Judaism that you knew, before I started posting, the answers to my questions?

I made my comment based on the observation that many of the questions in the "list" are derived from English translations that are then twisted out of context from the original language.

Now, you want to talk about "prejudged", there's nothing negative about saying that I wish people could read the original language.  How is wishing people have MORE knowledge and education "bad"?  So, not buying it.

And why is it that you're the only person in this thread I'm not getting along with?  Are you prone to blaming other people for your own shortcomings?  Do you think that, G-d or not, that kind of behavior is proper?  What do you think Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, Krishna, etc. would say about that?  Atheism doesn't seem to be contributing much to your contributions to the planet.  Or your own life, for that matter.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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mellestad wrote:That sounds

mellestad wrote:

That sounds fine.  If you have time after lunch, I am interested in this and the next post I made.  Thanks!

 

" I get that you can make the belief system about action and not theology, but obviously there is a supernatural component at some level...so would you label yourself as a secular Jew, or are there supernatural/mystical claims about Jewish history or modern belief that you would stand up for?

Is your lack of a definition a core Jewish doctrine, or is it specific to you or a sub-category of Judiasm?"

For me, it's also about not getting into all the "definition" wars and what do terms like "omnipresent" mean.

There is Rambam's 13 Principles of Faith, but it just gets abused in discussions like this.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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FurryCatHerder wrote:There

FurryCatHerder wrote:

There is Rambam's 13 Principles of Faith, but it just gets abused in discussions like this.

Alright, there is something SERIOUSLY whack about the software for this board.  There are now responses by Vastet that weren't here when I responded to the post that was quoted to make THAT post.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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butterbattle wrote: But

butterbattle wrote:

 But overall, you seem nice, open-minded, and a lot more knowledgeable than me on a wide variety of topics. So, I like you. I hope you stick around.

   I agree bb.  Such a pleasant change from the typical Christian dogmatism that we mostly encounter.  God bless'em, it's usually only the neo-pagans ( ciarin ) and new-agers ( Luminon ) that are an exception to the "turn or burn" theology.

  With regards to Judaism what has disturbed me the most is not it's theological idiosyncrasies but it's implicit endorsement of the G-d sanctioned violence against non-combatants such as women and children  and even the animals.  Were the animals guilty also ?

   "Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them.  Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys."   1 Samuel 15:3

  Social roles were all highly patriarchal and male-centered.  The purification rites for a Hebrew mother who gave birth to a boy was only a single week of the mother being ceremonially unclean, while the birth of a daughter rendered her ceremonially unclean for two weeks. Hunh ?  Female prisoners ( ..virgins ) captured during religious wars were allowed to be kept as spoils of war.

  The care and feeding of slaves seemed to have gotten some attention from G-d as he provided numerous instructions regarding the role of slaves in Hebrew society.  Seems strange in light of their Egyptian captivity, you would think that after having been on the receiving end of a slave-masters whip the ancient Israelites would have gained a more enlightened perspective....

   There seems to be a massive level of cognitive dissonance between modern manifestations of Judaism in which it's role within society is passive to the point of being inert    ...compared to it's more ancient role in which it's adherents differ little from the brutal tactics of modern-day Muslim extremists and there bloody war against the infidels.

  In short, it appears that the religious dictates of the ancient Hebrews and their G-d had little patience for such concepts as religious diversity, rules of warfare, human rights, etc....

  Seriously, how does one reconcile these differences without seeming to be just an apologist for brutality ?

  Thanks.

  


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Vastet wrote:It sounds

Vastet wrote:
It sounds further like someone who is guilty of the same generalist fallacy that she later uses for her own benefit to attack the OP. Not an impressive display of logic either. So when considering you attack my use of a PS3, which isn't as far off from being an actual computer as you think, and THEN after all the BS you throw out you try to suggest you would offer me a computer? Regardless of whether you go through them like water. YOU pushed and pushed just to discover I didn't have one in the first place. I never brought it up on my own, and I never asked anyone for anything. Just drop it already. It really doesn't bother me much to put up with a few limitations for a system that is ridiculously more powerful and capable than any PC made for the same price.

No, I asked the questions I did because I felt that you making so many posts was rude.  By the time I'd gotten around to learning you had a PS3, I felt that you were just plain rude, regardless of how many posts you make.  I was worried more about Christians here, but you're worse than any Christian I've ever encountered in a religious debate.

And it's not your job to protect the entire universe from all the imagined trolls you dream up.  Hell, your behavior is classical "Troll" behavior -- hiding under a metaphorical bridge, waiting to jump out and attack some unwitting victim.  I can't even post anything here without you bragging about how macho-he-man you are and what a protector of atheism you imagine yourself to be.

Get over yourself already.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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FurryCatHerder

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Alright, there is something SERIOUSLY whack about the software for this board.  There are now responses by Vastet that weren't here when I responded to the post that was quoted to make THAT post.

  I've experienced this before on another thread.  It's annoying and destroys continuity.


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Hi FurryCat

 

I have a jewish ex (her family was not pleased she was dating what they described as an 'international man' - lol) and some close jewish friends, one in particular who has long been very open about his failing faith and over say, 15 years, he's gone from practising judaism to embracing atheism while working on being the nice bloke that he was born to be.  During the same time I went from trying not to think about my family's freaky christianity to a fairly hostile anti-christian position. I couldn't tie fundamentalist christianity to judaism - modern judaism to me seems about right and as David and I have often discussed, it's more highly evolved than the various brands of christianity that tend to interpret the bible literally.

As you said, if there's anything pleasant about judaism it's that I won't be burned in hell but I still feel that as a goy I'm on the outer, morality-wise. The cuddliest compliment I ever got from said family of ex was that I was a 'rough diamond' which I assume means a nice goy or a righteous gentile. I know you'll set me straight on this Furry but I'm sure you said that a good goy was better than a bad jew - not that a good goy was equal to a good jew.

I personally don't care what people's gods are but I'm funny about undercurrents of judgement, about suggestions of ownership of the purer morals by one or another group. We're all just people and our morality is an evolutionary adaptation. I may just be projecting my own perceptions of what you meant here so don't be offended if you actually think differently.

Moving on, no believer has yet convinced me that there was an actual spiritual god who desired any response or any relationship with me. In the absence of this belief I tend to think we should focus on group hugs, not sending all our positive vibrations out into the cosmos.

I agree with the other folks that it's good to have a moderate believer's voice on the box instead of southern nutbags screaming about imolation. Much of my negativism towards religion is driven by a representation of a god who so callous I couldn't worship him in a pink fit. 

Oh - and I was going to ask - in line with Prozac's comments, do you think morality evolves or is constant over time?

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Sniffle....

Why is everyone else asleep when I am awake?

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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Atheistextremist wrote:Why

Atheistextremist wrote:

Why is everyone else asleep when I am awake?

I'm awake.  I'm looking up how to talk to a device on ModBus and watching "South Park" at the same time.

Atheistextremist wrote:

As you said, if there's anything pleasant about judaism it's that I won't be burned in hell but I still feel that as a goy I'm on the outer, morality-wise. The cuddliest compliment I ever got from said family of ex was that I was a 'rough diamond' which I assume means a nice goy or a righteous gentile. I know you'll set me straight on this Furry but I'm sure you said that a good goy was better than a bad jew - not that a good goy was equal to a good jew.

A "righteous gentile" is "better" than the High Priest.  It's a lot more involved than that, but part of the whole "chosen people" thing is that we're "graded on a curve", as it were.  If you're "chosen to fix the world", that's a pretty high level of expectation.  "Fixing the world" isn't your job, but if you're a "righteous gentile" and you're also committed to making this a better planet, that counts for a lot.

Atheistextremist wrote:

I personally don't care what people's gods are but I'm funny about undercurrents of judgement, about suggestions of ownership of the purer morals by one or another group. We're all just people and our morality is an evolutionary adaptation. I may just be projecting my own perceptions of what you meant here so don't be offended if you actually think differently.

I dunno.  My thoughts about "evolutionary morality" is that being selfish, greedy bastards is probably "better" from an evolutionary standpoint.  Evolution is all about ME reproducing MY genes, not making sure YOU get to reproduce YOURS, too.  Looking back 3 or 4 thousand years at "morality" then, compared to "morality" now, I think the species has made a lot of progress.  That's definitely too fast for evolution.  To me, that's proof of various prophecies because a lot of "modern morality" is very old in Torah Judaism.

Atheistextremist wrote:

Moving on, no believer has yet convinced me that there was an actual spiritual god who desired any response or any relationship with me. In the absence of this belief I tend to think we should focus on group hugs, not sending all our positive vibrations out into the cosmos.

Well ... part of why I'm a "believer" is that "group hugs" are encouraged more than beaming some kind of "spiritual positive vibes" out into the cosmos or being a selfish greedy bastard.  That and I just seem to be wired this way.

If Atheism has made a contribution to Theism, it's that Atheists can make some pretty objective comments about religious beliefs.  Look at the discussions we're having -- is it "more important" to be a GOOD person, or follow the "right" religion?  And what are the flaws in the "right" religion?  Christians are questioning the validity of Christian ideology more today than at any time in the past 2 millenia, and I have to think that "outside criticism" has played a role in that.  You've absolutely rejected Pascal's Wager, and you've presented an argument why.

Atheistextremist wrote:

I agree with the other folks that it's good to have a moderate believer's voice on the box instead of southern nutbags screaming about imolation. Much of my negativism towards religion is driven by a representation of a god who so callous I couldn't worship him in a pink fit.

Ah, the "The G-d you don't believe in, I don't believe in either" thing.  If there were no religions where being a decent human being wasn't valued over "believing", I'd be an Atheist.

Atheistextremist wrote:
Oh - and I was going to ask - in line with Prozac's comments, do you think morality evolves or is constant over time?

I think it's constant.  I don't think we live up to what's ideal, but I do think that society is moving in the right direction.  The same way that Mazlow's Heirarchy of Need works on an individual level, I think that society progresses in a similar manner.

And when we get there, the Messiah comes Smiling

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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Thanks for that reply, Furry

FurryCatHerder wrote:

I dunno.  My thoughts about "evolutionary morality" is that being selfish, greedy bastards is probably "better" from an evolutionary standpoint.  Evolution is all about ME reproducing MY genes, not making sure YOU get to reproduce YOURS, too.  Looking back 3 or 4 thousand years at "morality" then, compared to "morality" now, I think the species has made a lot of progress.  That's definitely too fast for evolution.  To me, that's proof of various prophecies because a lot of "modern morality" is very old in Torah Judaism.

Well ... part of why I'm a "believer" is that "group hugs" are encouraged more than beaming some kind of "spiritual positive vibes" out into the cosmos or being a selfish greedy bastard.  That and I just seem to be wired this way.

If Atheism has made a contribution to Theism, it's that Atheists can make some pretty objective comments about religious beliefs.  Look at the discussions we're having -- is it "more important" to be a GOOD person, or follow the "right" religion?  And what are the flaws in the "right" religion?  Christians are questioning the validity of Christian ideology more today than at any time in the past 2 millenia, and I have to think that "outside criticism" has played a role in that. 

I've highlighted a few things here 'cause I'm a bit incompetent when it comes to the quote thing.

Look - I think being a selfish greedy bastard would be a total dead end for any group living animal with the smarts to operate in numbers that demanded co-operation, comprehension of rank, apportioning of assets, etc...

No individual can afford to be selfish in the context of a group, especially an individual that evolved in a group in which there was a mutual genetic agenda. I tend to think that we evolved to live in small groups and the biological imperative of this history has made for what we call morality - a social conscience in which we consider the good of others in our self-interest group. I read a piece of research recently that compared the brain structures of animals that lived in groups (wolves, dolphins) and used the size of those animals' groups in the wild as a guide to establish that humans evolved to live in groups of about 150. I like being in those sort of intimate groups myself - it feels very natural and right.

I think it's wrong to think that humans are by default, selfish and evil. I think urbanisation does not bring out the best in us, but there are too many example of people doing righteous things for no reason for me to consider that moral goodness is less than an inherent human quality that has worked well for us over hundreds of thousands - probably millions of years. Now we live in huge cities we can't just stop behaving for the good of the group, even though we get burned by strangers, or are not rewarded by strangers we may never see again in the way our own people would reward us in a close-knit group.

I'm assuming with the Wager you're sugguesting that god is the simplest explanation for what we are doing here? 

This is my personal position only and to my detriment I tend to operate by 'feel' more than I should. Given this failing and combining it with whatever facts I am able to keep in the air at a given moment I feel we don't know the truth, that we can't know the truth and that in the absence of an anchor point we slot in what human groups have depended on throughout our pre-history. A strong, just, loving paternal father figure, prepared to die for us, who will crush the forces of darkness that scare us out of our sight-biased wits, kill the demons (leopards and hyenas) and take care of us forever in a warm valley of plenty where there is no sickness and no death.

I think it's a lovely notion and with all my human heart I wish it true. Trouble is, I don't believe it. I think it's just us on a speck of dust. And the ability to be nice to each other and tell each other that, whichever way it falls, things are going to be alright, is probably the best and the bravest of all the things we can ever do.

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


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"What?  Are you actually

"What?  Are you actually able to read Hebrew?  Are you aware enough of Judaism that you knew, before I started posting, the answers to my questions?"

What does MY capability to read a language have to do with YOUR assertion that ALL atheists are dumb?

"I made my comment based on the observation that many of the questions in the "list" are derived from English translations that are then twisted out of context from the original language."

And you were both insulting and WRONG. Many of the questions may be out of context with YOUR beliefs and the history of YOUR religion, but WE see christians and the odd other THEIST assert such things ALL THE TIME. So THOSE questions are to CHRISTIANS, and those others, NOT YOU. A simple statement that some or most of the questions are not in context with your religion would have been quite sufficient. Suggesting we're no smarter than the christians who made up the arguments in the first place is so ... stupid.

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"Now, you want to talk about

"Now, you want to talk about "prejudged", there's nothing negative about saying that I wish people could read the original language."

You didn't say PEOPLE, you said ATHEISTS. You didn't even say SOME atheists, you generalised ALL of us. How would you like it if I said all jews were money grubbing arab murderers? It's as true an assertion as your own, which is to say, not at all.

"And why is it that you're the only person in this thread I'm not getting along with? "

Maybe I'm the only one who both saw and took exception to your post. This is a very long thread, not everyone wants to dive in to a 500 post topic. Or maybe people who took offence figured I was already taking you to task for it, and there was no need to dogpile you. Or maybe they decided to be nice regardless. I don't know, I'm not omniscient. There have been few members of the site who have posted in it since you did. But I can guarantee that I'm not the only one who would take exception to the claim that atheists are ignorant.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Vastet
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"Are you prone to blaming

"Are you prone to blaming other people for your own shortcomings?"

I don't blame anyone for my shortcomings, and never have.

"Do you think that, G-d or not, that kind of behavior is proper?"

Yes, it is quite proper to defend oneself and his or her allies.

"What do you think Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, Krishna, etc. would say about that?"

I don't particularly care. I'm not sure some of them even existed, and frankly I don't think ancient history has anything to do with gods beyond their invention.

" Atheism doesn't seem to be contributing much to your contributions to the planet.  Or your own life, for that matter."

How is a lack of belief in gods supposed to contribute anything? Why should it?
Completely ignoring of course that there are atheists in and running charities and working in science to advance our species socially and technologically.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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"No, I asked the questions I

"No, I asked the questions I did because I felt that you making so many posts was rude."

Which would make you a hypocrite for doing the same thing later, and not even having my excuse.

"By the time I'd gotten around to learning you had a PS3, I felt that you were just plain rude, regardless of how many posts you make. "

And I had concluded that YOU were just plain rude. I don't treat rude people with sugar and gum drops, I nuke them. Going from your responses, you do the same thing, so you're in no position to take me to task for it.

"And it's not your job to protect the entire universe from all the imagined trolls you dream up. "

This one tiny forum is hardly equal to the universe, and I didn't have to imagine anything.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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"Hell, your behavior is

"Hell, your behavior is classical "Troll" behavior"

That was the point, if using the term as the internet has defined it.

"hiding under a metaphorical bridge, waiting to jump out and attack some unwitting victim."

I wasn't hiding. I'm all over the forum.

"I can't even post anything here without you bragging about how macho-he-man you are and what a protector of atheism you imagine yourself to be.Get over yourself already."

That's just ridiculous and unworthy of a response.

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FurryCatHerder wrote: If

FurryCatHerder wrote:
If you're "chosen to fix the world", that's a pretty high level of expectation.  "Fixing the world" isn't your job, but if you're a "righteous gentile" and you're also committed to making this a better planet, that counts for a lot.

   I know you didn't intend for that to sound patronizing....   

  If "fixing" the world is the divinely appointed responsibility of the chosen people then I can only assume that G-d has not chosen wisely.  Historically speaking the Jewish nation has been incapable of fixing even it's own small geographical "neighborhood" ( unless almost constant warfare counts as a success ) much less paving the way for the rest of humanity.  Nevertheless, the world population is surpassing 6.5 billion human beings so if the Jews are going to fix the world it's time to put up or shut up.  There is no more time to waste. Seriously.

 

 

 

FurryCatHerder wrote:
  To me, that's proof of various prophecies because a lot of "modern morality" is very old in Torah Judaism.

  I cannot be sure at this point how you interpret "modern morality".  Campaigning for the rights of homosexuals would be an example of modern morality. I could scarcely imagine that Moses and his contemporaries would embrace the concept of gay marriage with much enthusiasm ( see Leviticus 20:13 ).   Granted I'm an outsider to your religion but even a cursory examination of very old Judaic traditions would reveal very little overlap with modern perceptions of what constitutes just and fair treatment. ( see post# 630 )

 

 


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Vastet wrote:"What?  Are

Vastet wrote:
"What?  Are you actually able to read Hebrew?  Are you aware enough of Judaism that you knew, before I started posting, the answers to my questions?" What does MY capability to read a language have to do with YOUR assertion that ALL atheists are dumb?

Could you find a statement by me that can be unambiguously interpreted as "ALL atheists are dumb?"

Several of my closest friends are devout atheists and I think the average level of education is somewhere between M.S. and Ph.D.  Implying that "ALL atheists are dumb" would be an extremely bizarre thing for me to do.  So bizarre that I know you're lying.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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ProzacDeathWish

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

FurryCatHerder wrote:
If you're "chosen to fix the world", that's a pretty high level of expectation.  "Fixing the world" isn't your job, but if you're a "righteous gentile" and you're also committed to making this a better planet, that counts for a lot.

   I know you didn't intend for that to sound patronizing....   

  If "fixing" the world is the divinely appointed responsibility of the chosen people then I can only assume that G-d has not chosen wisely.  Historically speaking the Jewish nation has been incapable of fixing even it's own small geographical "neighborhood" ( unless almost constant warfare counts as a success ) much less paving the way for the rest of humanity.  Nevertheless, the world population is surpassing 6.5 billion human beings so if the Jews are going to fix the world it's time to put up or shut up.  There is no more time to waste. Seriously.

Jewish contributions to modern society are non-trivial.  Contrasted against 3,500 years ago, Jewish contributions were revolutionary, and many of Judaisms contributions from 3,500 years ago are still pretty radical.  And that's WITH all those wars going on.

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
FurryCatHerder wrote:
  To me, that's proof of various prophecies because a lot of "modern morality" is very old in Torah Judaism.

  I cannot be sure at this point how you interpret "modern morality".  Campaigning for the rights of homosexuals would be an example of modern morality. I could scarcely imagine that Moses and his contemporaries would embrace the concept of gay marriage with much enthusiasm ( see Leviticus 20:13 ).   Granted I'm an outsider to your religion but even a cursory examination of very old Judaic traditions would reveal very little overlap with modern perceptions of what constitutes just and fair treatment. ( see post# 630 )

Leviticus 20:13 can be read in more than one way.  Part of what Liberal (non-Orthodox) Judaism is trying to do is understand what some of these laws are REALLY about.

We have laws that make less than no sense today, because they applied to situations that haven't existed for millenia.  My personal feelings are that Lev 20:13 is about cultic prostitution rituals that existed between about 8,000 BCE and the time that's well accepted for the Jewish occupation of Judea.  The best support for that is that there is no Torah prohibition against lesbianism, so it isn't "homosexuality" but something involves men having sex with men in a way that's like "lying with a woman".  And when know historically when and why that happened.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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  FurryCatHerder wrote: If

 

 

FurryCatHerder wrote:
If you're "chosen to fix the world", that's a pretty high level of expectation.  "Fixing the world" isn't your job, but if you're a "righteous gentile" and you're also committed to making this a better planet, that counts for a lot.

 

FurryCatherder wrote:
Jewish contributions to modern society are non-trivial.  Contrasted against 3,500 years ago, Jewish contributions were revolutionary, and many of Judaisms contributions from 3,500 years ago are still pretty radical.  And that's WITH all those wars going on.

   Right.  There's no doubt that persons of Jewish ancestry have made contributions to society but then so have persons of Chinese, Indian, etc ancestry and virtually any other ethnic background that you could imagine.  Only someone very close-minded would suggest otherwise.  Nevertheless, making contributions to society does not equal fixing the world.  ..and by the way, the world isn't close to being fixed in any meaningful way so really what does this grandiose mission from G-d have to do with the starkly differing reality that millions, if not billions, of other humans around the world are currently experiencing ?  

  Perhaps I am misinterpreting what you mean by fixing the world.  My former religious experiences were based upon quite a literal interpretation of words and phrases. 

 


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FurryCatHerder

FurryCatHerder wrote:

Leviticus 20:13 can be read in more than one way.  Part of what Liberal (non-Orthodox) Judaism is trying to do is understand what some of these laws are REALLY about.

We have laws that make less than no sense today, because they applied to situations that haven't existed for millenia.  My personal feelings are that Lev 20:13 is about cultic prostitution rituals that existed between about 8,000 BCE and the time that's well accepted for the Jewish occupation of Judea.  The best support for that is that there is no Torah prohibition against lesbianism, so it isn't "homosexuality" but something involves men having sex with men in a way that's like "lying with a woman".  And when know historically when and why that happened.

  Interesting.  Thank you for self-identifying yourself as being an adherent of liberal Judaism.  In a way that makes you the Jewish equivalent of a Universalist Unitarian. 

  Lastly, I had hoped that at some point you would have addressed the more troubling aspects ( cultural tolerance of slavery, infanticide, religious persecution, frivolous use of capital punishment ) regarding the history of your people's religious heritage and what was once considered proper obedience to G-d.  But I don't have the patience of Job to keep repeating myself over and over.  I'm off to another thread.

  Enjoy your stay here.

 


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"Could you find a statement

"Could you find a statement by me that can be unambiguously interpreted as "ALL atheists are dumb?""

I already posted it.

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Vastet wrote:"Could you find

Vastet wrote:
"Could you find a statement by me that can be unambiguously interpreted as "ALL atheists are dumb?"" I already posted it.

Okay, so could you kindly do that again?  Because I've yet to see whatever it is you think is an unambiguous statement that "ALL atheists are dumb".  Go find my comment, put it in a quote box, and say "This statement is a clear and unambiguous statement that "ALL atheists are dumb".  Not "I think it says this" or "I don't like this", but a nice, clear, unambiguous to anyone giving the text a fair reading, statement that "ALL atheists are dumb".

You really are helping me reach the conclusion that you're a troll and that this website would be much better off if perhaps you were banned from using it.  Is there a moderator that could be contacted to help make that happen?

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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ProzacDeathWish wrote: 

ProzacDeathWish wrote:

  Interesting.  Thank you for self-identifying yourself as being an adherent of liberal Judaism.  In a way that makes you the Jewish equivalent of a Universalist Unitarian.

LOL!

No, it really doesn't.  "Liberal" Judaism is, more or less, the entire spectrum of Judaism that isn't Orthodox, including the belief that the Orthodox are "orthodox" because they say so, and not because Judaism says so.  Or as I like to ask Orthodox friends "Do you really think we did that 3,000 years ago?"

ProzacDeathWish wrote:
Lastly, I had hoped that at some point you would have addressed the more troubling aspects ( cultural tolerance of slavery, infanticide, religious persecution, frivolous use of capital punishment ) regarding the history of your people's religious heritage and what was once considered proper obedience to G-d.  But I don't have the patience of Job to keep repeating myself over and over.  I'm off to another thread.

Considering that dealing with Vastet has taken more than the majority of my time here, I think you're being a bit unfair.  Judging from some of the topics, I think you're also applying modern standards to some pretty ancient problems, as well as applying modern concepts to some pretty ancient practices.  Do you read anti-Semetic websites to get your list of complaints?

There was a saying that a Sanhedrin that executed one person in 500 years was considered a "bloody Sanhedrin".  Capital punishment was so infrequently used that the process for performing capital punishment was almost lost to antiquity.

"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."


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"Okay, so could you kindly

"Okay, so could you kindly do that again?"

No. It's already in this topic twice. Your failure to see it the second time, in combination with your refusal to act like a decent human being even after I made an effort to tone down my hostility, is mere proof that you're a troll. Find it yourself.

"You really are helping me reach the conclusion that you're a troll and that this website would be much better off if perhaps you were banned from using it.  Is there a moderator that could be contacted to help make that happen?"

Don't be too surprised when I don't go anywhere, and you get banned for trolling.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.