Questions about God... theists answer these!
Offline List of questions about God, religion and the supernatural have been compiled by IG over the years as well as some interesting ones by readers.
1. If Jesus fulfilled all the OT prophecies so well, why didn't the Jews recognize him as the messiah? - Francois Tremblay
2. If Gen 3:24 is true, why hasn't anyone found the Cherubims and the " flaming sword which turned every way"?
3. It's been proven that modern humans originated from Africa. Yet, the Adam and Eve story claims the first Humans lived in a garden in Eden, near 4 rivers. ( Most of which no one can find). One of these rivers mentioned is the Euphrates, which runs through Iraq, Syria and a portion of Turkey. What's the truth? Did man come out of Africa or near the Euphrates River? - The Infidel Guy
4. When the believer gets to Heaven, how can Heaven be utter bliss when people they love and care about are burning in Hell ? - The Infidel Guy - [Note: Some say God erases your memories of them, but if God erases your memory, you as Mr. Joe /Jane Smoe ceases to exist.]
5. How can a God have emotions, i.e. jealousy, anger, sadness, love, etc., if he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent? Emotional states are reactionary for the most part. How can God react to us if he is all-knowing and has a divine plan? - IG [Note: Indeed, many religious texts display their gods this way . Listen to the An Emotional Godshow.]
6. Why would God create a place such as hell to torture sinners forever when he foreknew who would disappoint him? - IG [Note: Some say you have a choice, but this misses the point. If God hates sin so much, why create Adam and Eve when he knew they'd sin? The only conclusion I can come up with, if Yaweh exists, is that he wanted sin to enter the world.]
7. "God is all merciful," we hear quite often. Wouldn't it be more merciful of God to simply snap sinners out of existence rather than send them to hell? Or better yet, since he's all-knowing, not allow them to be born at all? - IG
ON GOD'S LOVE & HELL
1.) God's love is superlative.
2.) God's love of man exceeds man's love of self.
3.) Man's love of self prohibits torture.
4.) Considering God's greater love for us, Hell (eternal torture) is illogical.
8. Muslims are supposed to pray 5 times a day towards Mecca. Each prayer includes a variety of ritualism and posturing. If a muslim astronaut were to land on Mars. Prayer to Mecca would be ritualistically impossible due to the rotation of Earth and Mars. Are Muslims stuck here in Earth? IG [Note: Since this was first posted, a Muslim astronaut was faced with this very dilemma. The authoritative clergy informed him to pray as he normally would. I see this no where in the Koran. You see? Religions must change, or die out. It's interesting to note that, in the Koran, the moon is believed to be in the lowest Heaven, the level for those that barely made it to Heaven. Surah 71:15-16. One problem, no man can supposedly get to Heaven until they die. Yet, we've been to the moon. Our satellites beyond that.]
9. Why haven't we seen God reattach severed heads, restore someone who was burned alive or regrow amputated limbs? Surely these would be miracles difficult to deny. - Adam Majors and IG [Note: The typical answer is that man doesn't dictate God's actions. The conundrum here however is that, if God wants us to "know" him, then surely feats such as those mentioned above would be happening all over the world. Until they do, I'll remain an atheist.]
10. Why does God entrust the spreading of 'His' word to sinners? Why doesn't he do it himself? - IG [Note: Surely God would have known that not everyone would be convinced by the reality[sic] of his Bible. If God loves us so much, we are all going to Heaven. If God knew that I would be an atheist, and he doesn't like atheists, he shouldn't have allowed me to come into existence. But he did. Therefore, I must be serving the will of God, for I exist. 
]
11. In II Kings 2-23/24 we read about God sending 2 she-bears to attack children for calling the prophet Elisa bald, which he was, the bears killed 42 of the children. Was this a good thing to do? -- Brandon and IG[Note: I have heard some argue that the boys were a gang. So?! I didn't read anywhere in that passage where they laid a finger on the guy . Also, what kind of bears are these that can kill 42 kids? Super Bears? Surely the kids had to be running away.]
12. I have often heard from many believers that even Satan has a presence in the church, which is why even in church people can still have impure thoughts. If Satan can find his way in the church, how do Christians know that Satan didn't find his way into the Bible and twist the whole book? After all, men did vote on which books would make the Holy Bible. - The Infidel Guy
13. Why did God allow Lot and his daughters to escape from Sodom and Gomorra when he destroyed it only to later have Lot and his daughters engage in incestuous fornication. (Genesis 19:30-36) - Disillusioned [Note: To have intercourse with daddy dearest of course.]
14. Genesis 1:28-29 shows that man and all the animals were first created herbivorous. Most young-earth Christians (ones that believes the earth is less than 10,000 years old) say that the fall of man resulted in carnivorous animals ( hence death of animals). So, why did God punish the animal kingdom, making animals kill and devour each other because of man's mistake? Or, if you're an old-earth Christian (one that accepts that animals existed on earth for billions of years before man came on the scene) then how come fossils show carnivorous animals existed before man? - http://www.caseagainstfaith.com/contact.htm.
15. Many Christians believe that God is a thinking being, that he solves problems and makes a way for them when troubles come. Does God Think? If God is thinking, did he know his thoughts before he thought them? If so, again, where is his freewill and how is God thinking at all if everything seems to be one uncontrollable action/thoughts. - The Infidel Guy [Note: I'd say a God cannot think at all. To do so, would strip him of omniscience. Thinking is a temporal process.] ON GOD'S ATEMPORALITY
1.) God, an atemporal being, created the Universe.
2.) Creation is a temporal processes because X cannot cause Y to come into being unless X existed temporally prior to Y.
3.) If God existed prior to the creation of the Universe he is a temporal being.
4.) Since God is atemporal, God cannot be the creator the Universe.
[Note: I guess I should also note here that a timeless being would be without the proposition of past, and future. But to be omniscient, God must know the past and future. Hence a God that is atemporal and omniscient cannot logically exist. ]
16. I have often heard that faith is all that is neccessary to believe in God and accept the Bible as true. If this is true aren't all supernatural beliefs true since they also require "faith"? - IG ON FAITH
1.) A prerequisite to believe in a Faith is faith.
2.) Having faith is all that is required to accept a Faith (belief) as true.
3.) All Faiths are true.
[Note: Of course all Faiths aren`t true, but this is the only logical conclusion that can be drawn from a person that states that, "Faith" is how one knows God.]
17. Why didn't God just kill Adam and Eve after the Fall and start from scratch? Actually, if God is all-knowing wouldn't he know that man would need to be killed eventually anyway, (the biblical flood)? Why create Adam and Eve at all? - and ON THE GARDEN OF EDEN
1.) God is omniscient (all-knowing).
2.) God knew that before he created man that they would eat of the tree of knowledge.
3.) God placed the tree of knowledge in the Garden anyway.
4.) God wanted sin to enter the world.
[Note: If God didn`t want sin to enter the world, why create Adam and Eve at all? He knew what would happen. Why place the forbidden trees in the Garden in the first place?]
18. If a spirit is non-physical but the human body is physical, how does a spirit stay in our bodies? - IG ON SPIRITS
1.) Spirits are not physical entities.
2.) Brains are physical entities.
3.) Past experiences are stored in our physical brains, we call that, Memory..
4.) Injury can damage portions of the physical brain that store memory and can alter or erase memories completely.
5.) If human spirits exist... after death, spirits can have no memory.
[Note: Some will say the spirit stores physical memories as well, but if true, the spirit would have to be physical at least to a degree. How could a non-physical spirit store, physical memories?]
19. Does God know his own future decisions? If God is all-knowing he actually shouldn't have any decisions to make at all. Nor can he choose anything over something else. For that would mean that he is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. In fact, he can't even think if this is the case. Since he can't DO anything, he might as well not exist. - IG ON GOD'S IMMUTABILITY - Unchangingness
1. If God exists, then he is immutable.
2. If God exists, then he is the creator of the universe.
3. An immutable being cannot at one time have an intention and then at a later time not have that intention.
4. For any being to create anything, prior to the creation he must have had the intention to create it, but at a later time, after the creation, no longer have the intention to create it.
5. Thus, it is impossible for an immutable being to have created anything (from 3 and 4).
6. Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1, 2, and 5) - Theodore M. Drange
20. If God is all-knowing, how could he be disappointed in His creation? -- [Note: Indeed, wouldn't God know that before the creation of our Universe what creatures would disappoint him? That being the case why create those creatures at all? Also, in knowing absolutely the behavior of humans before creation, God cannot be disappointed either... for this world is exactly as he has planned it to be. If it's not, why create us at all?]
21. God struck down the Tower of Babel angry at the intent of the people that built them, if this is the case, many of the great pyramids ( which are bigger than any ziggurat) around the world should be rubble also, yet many still stand today. Were not the Egyptians and many other ancient pyramid builders reaching toward God /The Heavens? - IG [Note: In actuality, many of the Pharaoh's believed that, via their pyramids, they would become God's themselves.]
22. In the watchmaker analogy, a watch is used to show us intelligent design and compares that to the Universe as evidence of design. We know watches are designed because we have past experience with watches, as well as with other man made objects. My question is: What Universe is the Intelligent Design proponent using to compare this Universe with to draw such an analogy? What God did he see create a Universe? - IG
23. Why did God flood the earth to remove evil? It didn't work! Evil came right back, God should have known that would happen! So why did He bother? - PhineasBg [Note: A good example of how quickly sin returned, was Noah getting drunk just after they discovered land.]
24. If the garden of Eden was a perfect paradise as xians claim, then why did Eve even want to eat the fruit? Wouldn't a perfect place provide everything a person would want or desire and thus she would want nothing? - keyser soze [Note: Why were the trees there in the first place? Of course they love to throw the serpent into the equation. But ummm..who let the serpent into the Garden?... and why would God create such a creature knowing he would cause man's fall? Hmm.. God must have wanted the fall to happen.]
25. Why would an all-powerful god become flesh in order to sacrifice himself to himself so that his creation might escape the wrath of himself. Couldn't god, in his infinite wisdom, come up with something a little more efficient? - ON THE BODY OF CHRIST
1.) God?s flesh was known as Jesus.
2.) Flesh cannot enter into Heaven (according to Paul)
3.) God is no longer Jesus.
4.) Jesus doesn?t exist.
(Note: Many at this point will state that the spirit lives on so therefore Jesus lives. This really depends on what you believe about Jesus. Is Jesus the son of God or God in flesh? If Jesus is merely the son there is no problem.However, if Jesus ?is? God himself, we do. You see, Jesus is called Jesus because of the attribute of Flesh. If Jesus = God (who is spirit) then the entity known as Jesus ceases to exist. The flesh/body of Jesus, no longer exists and the spirit of God is still the unchanging spirit of God. No Jesus at that point. The Flesh, called Jesus, is dead.)
26. After 9/11 a lot of people have been tossing around " god bless america". Why do they keep saying this? From the looks of it god hasn't blessed anything. If god had blessed america, the 9/11 event would've never happened. Theists seem to give the answer of "everything is part of gods big plan". If everything is part of gods big plan, why are we after Bin Laden? Wasn't he and other terrorists just carrying out gods desired plan? So it seems that Bin Laden/ terrorism isnt our enemy, but god . - [Note: Unfortunately many religious nuts believe they are fulfilling their God's plan by going to war.]
27. Christians say that God is NOT the author of confusion. Can you say, Tower of Babel? - The Screaming Monkeys
28. If Noah's flood supposedly covered the earth for a year, regardless of whether or not all the animals could fit on the ark, what the heck happened to all the plants? Can you imagine a cactus surviving under 4 miles of water for a year? I can't either! - Kyle Giblet [Note: With God all things are possible. Oh wait, except in Judges 1:19.]
29. The highest rainfall ever recorded in a 24 hour period was 47inches in the Reunion Islands in 1947 (during a severe tropical storm). To cover the whole earth to a depth of 5.6 miles, and cover the mountain tops (i.e. Mount Everest), it would need to rain at a rate of 372 (three hundred and seventy two) inches per hour, over the entire surface of the earth. Can rain fall at such an astronomical rate? Where did all the water come from?? Where did it all go to??? And would not the dynamics of the earth be so out of balance (tides etc.) that the earth would become so unstable that it would wobble off into outer space???? -
30. What do Muslim women get in Paradise? - IG [Note: Some Muslims I have interviewed about this say that Muslim women will get the same thing men get or equal value. Oh really? So Muslim women will get 72 virgin men? lol. If Muslim men get 72 virgins, where are all these virgin women coming from? What of their freewill? Is Allah creating these women to be slaves to the men in Paradise?]
31. In the "Last Days" Jesus is supposed to appear in the clouds. How are the Christians on the opposite end of the world going to see him? Are there going to be millions of Jesus'? What about people that work underground? What about people in deep space? -
32. The Bible says that God is a jealous God . How is this an example of a moral absolute of which man is supposed to follow? - IG ON GOD`S JEALOUSY
1.) "God is love." 1 John 4:8.
2.) "Love is not jealous." 1 Cor 13:4
3.) "I, the Lord thy God, am a jealous God." Exodus 20:5.
4.) The Christian god cannot logically exist.
(NOte: Basically love is NOT jealous, yet god is jealous, then God can`t be love. But if god IS love he cannot be jealous. Be he is.)
33. A true Muslim man is not supposed to do anything that the prophet Muhammad didn't do. If one remembers there was a big debate over whether or not Muslims should eat Mangos. If this is true, why in the Hell were these Islamic Fundamentalists flying airplanes? - IG
34. If the earth was covered by a complete global flood, every living creature killed except those surviving on the ark, why are there many completely unique animal species in Australia that are found no where else indigenously on the earth? -
35. If god is omniscient and " god is love," why would he allow a child to be conceived, knowing that that child would one day reject him and spend eternity burning in a lake of fire?- TiredTurkeyProd
36. Revelations is supposed to take place on Earth. What if we colonize the moon or Mars or inhabit a self-sustaining space station? Do we escape "judgement"? -- Ray Sommers [Note: No we don't Ray... and of course we all know that if there is any intelligent life out there besides us, they are all going to Hell too. 
]
37. Isaiah 40:28 says, "...the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is he weary?" If this is true, why did God rest on the seventh day?- IG
38. Everytime I go to a funeral the preacher and guests always say that " God " has called that person to Heaven or they say, " God said it was time to come home", or some such variation. If God is calling these people "home", why are we putting the murderers of these victims in prison? How can we punish a man or woman for doing God's will? - IG
39. Does God have a gender? In most churches, God is predominately referred to as a "he"? - IG [Note: The Bible says God is male, but what does this mean? Does God have a penis? Does he have hormones that dictate his gender? ]
40. Why can't we wait until we get to Heaven to worship God ? Why would it be too late? - IG
41. What is the purpose of prayer? What can a finite being on Earth possibly tell an omnipotent, omniscient deity that he doesn't know already? - IG ON PRAYER
1.) Humans can?t change God?s mind for he has a divine plan and is unchangeable.
2.) Prayer can't change God's mind.
3.) Prayer doesn't change anything.
(Prayer may make you feel better emotionally, but it doesn`t change God`s mind.)
42. Some say Jesus was the all-knowing God. Jesus would have known then that when he died he'd be in heaven in less than 3 days to rule. If Jesus is alive and ruling today, what did he sacrifice? -- Cyndy Hammond
43. God knows that men are sinners, untrustworthy and evil, why does God leave it up to fallible man (clergy..etc) to teach others about his word? Why would he put our eternal souls at risk if he loves us so much? - The Infidel Guy and Danno778
44. Did Adam have nipples? If so, how did he acquire them? In fact, why would God give "later man" nipples at all? They serve no purpose other than lactation. Some say pleasure. Where is that in Genesis exactly? All mammals have nipples as well, are theirs pleasureful for them too? Many men don't find their nipples pleasurable at all. - IG
45. How did Adam and Eve know it was wrong to disobey God if they hadn't eaten of the tree of knowledge (of good and evil) yet? You can't blame them if they didn't know. - IG
46. If God has such a tremendous problem with uncircumcised penises, why did he make man with foreskin in the first place? - IG [Note: Some say, "So God can recognize his chosen people." Recognize? Is God so stupid that he has to physically look at men's penises? If not God, do other men need to? lol.]
47. Did Noah have fish onboard? Salt or Fresh? Since fresh water fish would die in salt, and salt water fish would die in fresh, only one type of fish would survive. Yet....?" - Frank Monaco
48. Why does the omnipotent, omnipresent God need help from man or angels to spread his word or do acts? - IG [Note: Some say God doesn't need help. But apparently he does.] - IG
49. How did Jesus ascend to Heaven in the Flesh when Paul says that flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of Heaven? (1 Cor.15:50) - IG [Note: Some say, well Paul said that and not Jesus. Yet they quote Paul when it suits there purposes.]
50. If God wants us to live right and choose "the good," why did he create evil? (Isaiah 45:6,7) Not to mention he already knows which people are not going to choose "the good" so why create those people in the first place? It seems that many people are born to go to Hell. - IG ON HELL
1.) God is all-knowing.
2.) Before I was born God knew I wouldn?t believe in him.
3.) I was born to go to Hell.
(Sure you may say I have a choice, but I think I`ve proven already that I really don`t. I`m simply fulfilling the will of God by being an atheist aren`t I? If I`m not, I shouldn`t exist: For God would have known that before I was created that I wouldn`t believe in him.)
51. I hear Christians all the time speaking of a spiritual war between Heaven and Hell, if this is true does God have limitations of power? Man only conducts wars because of our limitations of power and foresight. God has both all-power and all-knowledge, no reason for war of any kind. - IG
52. The Bible is full of phrases beginning with, "and the lord saw". Didn't he know before hand? - IG
53. How can a psychologist condone belief in something not proven to exist, when people are put into mental institutions on a daily basis for the same thing? i.e. aliens, fairies, imaginary people (Multiple Personality Disorders..)? - Dan Denton [Note: I'm sure that some of the pious believe that they are improperly placed there as well Dan. ]
54. If Christians say they know God exists and that he will work miracles, what do they need faith for? Faith is not knowing. - IG
55. Brain, or shall I say, body transplants, will eventually be possible, where would the soul be then? Where is the soul? - IG
56. If God really wants us to know him, why doesn't he place the knowledge of him in our minds at birth? The same way many theists believe that God implants our sense of right and wrong in us a right birth. - IG
57. If God was Jesus' father (not Joseph), then why is Jesus' family tree traced through Joseph? -- Cyndy Hammond
58. What image of God was man made from? Couldn't have been a moral one or physical one. - IG [Note: One would suspect that an image of God would be perfect and cannot sin. Oops.]
59. Why can't God appear before everyone at the same time? Everyone in the world would then "know" he exists and not have solely "believe". And please, don't say he already tried that. Surely a God knows exactly what to do to convince a measly human of his existence. - IG
60. According to the New Testament Matthew 5:17 says "Do not suppose that I have come to abolish the Law and the prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to complete. I tell you this: so long as heaven and earth endure, not a letter, not a stroke, will disappear from the Law until all that must happen has Happened." So since Jesus has not returned the "Law" is still in effect, so why aren't we still burning witches, stoning adulterers and disobedient children, killing homosexuals, ostracizing people that work on the Sabbath (nurses, doctors etc.), flinging blood onto the horns of the alter, pulling off the heads of small birds, and don't forget human sacrifice to God (Leviticus 27 P.28 )? -- Sheila L. Chambers
61. If there is freewill in Heaven yet everyone has chosen good and is happy, isn't that proof that God could have made us with freewill, choosing good ( God ) and still being happy on Earth? - Dennis Hendrix [Note: In other words, evil didn't have to exist after all. Hey wait, even in Heaven apparently, evil can exist. At least for a short while. Satan became evil and was in heaven. Apparently he even had enough time to form an Army against God. Wow. Maybe Heaven won't be as peaceful as many believe.]
62. Why does God have a plan? Man is limited in power so we make plans because we are not all-knowing nor all-powerful. If God has a plan, isn't he reduced to a mere finite being? - IG
63. How could the all-merciful/loving God watch billions of his children burn over and over again for eternity? - IG [Note: Of course this is geared to those that believe in a fiery hell. I am well aware that not all Christians believe in a fiery Hell.]
64. Before reading and writing were invented (5000BC), on what basis did God use to judge the people who died before the Hebrew and Greek text (BIBLE) were written? -- [Note: They are all roasting in Hell. ]
65. Many Christians tell me that I will "burn in hell". If I have a soul, how can a soul burn? Aren't souls non-physical entities? - IG [Note: Some Christians groups believe that you will be given new bodies after judgement. However, if true, what's the significance of a spirit in the first place?]
66. How can one hold to the barbaric belief that something has to DIE in order to appease a god for a bad deed? -- Nickolaus Wing [Note: Because an old book says so Nick.]
67. Why does SIDS (Sudden Infant Death Syndrome) occur? Why would God allow a baby to live for such a short period of time? Why not just let them not be born in the first place? -- Terry Clark [Note: This actually happened to a friend of mine. Not even God himself could console her.]
68. If Jesus was nailed and died on Friday evening, and walked out of the tomb on Sunday morning, where's the 3rd NIGHT he predicted? Per Matthew 12:40: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. -
69. Many Christians claim that hell is merely existence outside of God ?s presence (C.S. Lewis among others). If this is the case, then Jesus could not have descended into hell (being God Himself). As a result, are you sure your sins are forgiven? - Byron Bultsma
70. Ten to twenty percent of all women who discover they are pregnant suffer a miscarriage. Also, it is estimated that anywhere from 14 to 50 percent of all pregnancies end in miscarriage. Seeing this is all part of God 's plan, does this make God the world's number one abortion provider? - Jim
71. What if, when you get to Heaven, you saw God causing pain and suffering out of anger or for the purpose of entertaining himself. What if he required people in heaven to praise and worship him non-stop even to the point of causing his worshipers discomfort, pain and boredom. What if, when he was bored, angry, or jealous, he would create natural disasters to make himself feel better. Would you still follow him? - Fernando [Note: Of course they would Fernando, many people followed Hitler out of fear as well.]
72. In Leviticus, the bible condemns homosexuality as an "abomination", giving some Christians a reason to hate, harass, torture and kill gays and even picket their funderals with " God hates fags" signs. In the same book of the bible the eating of shellfish is equally an "abomination". Are these Christians planning to go after the patrons of Red Lobster next? - [Note: hee-hee, that's all I can say. Jewish Law states that eating Fish without scales is an abomination and thus the Shark is one among the list. However, sharks do have scales, Placoid scales, one of the many reasons why a shark is called a Fish .]
73. Christians will tell you that if a baby dies it goes to heaven. Why then are they so against abortion? All the child is being deprived of is the opportunity to go to hell. Either that or god expects unborn fetuses to accept Jesus. -
74. If one could prove to you incontrovertibly that Jesus and God were all human fabrications would still believe? And why? - LOGICnREASON [Note: If you say yes. Then you are not concerned with the truth, you simply WANT to believe; and if you WANT to believe, indeed, there is nothing anyone can tell you..]
75. It is often said that God allows evil because one could not meaningfully appreciate good without experiencing its opposite. Why is it necessary to experience the opposite of something in order to appreciate it? Must I experience death in order to meaningfully appreciate life? -excidius
76. Bible literalists want you to believe that God's Word in the Bible is meant to be taken literally. If this is the case, why was Jesus fond of explaining things in parable and metaphor? Was Jesus literally discussing the biology of mustard seeds, or was the mustard seed parable meant to be interpreted figuratively as faith? -excidius
77. Liberal Christians say some parts of the Bible are literally true, but much else is to be interpreted figuratively as allegory. How do you know which is which? What distinguishing criteria are used? How can you be certain "God" is a literal and not a figurative concept? -excidius
78. Consciousness is the result of a physical brain, how could God being metaphysical be said to be conscious or sentient without having a brain? - Mindless
79. Considering how Leviticus is considered old law, and that Christians do not obey it anymore, why do they always use it to defend homosexuality being an "abomination"? -Bohorquez
80. If God is omnipotent and he has a plan ... then why did he not create the universe as it will be one second after the plan has succeeded? Who or what prevented him from doing that? - Timothy Campbell (http://www.tc123.com)
81. The large majority of people who have ever existed could not have learned of the Bible or Jesus Christ. And many people afterwards have found other religions or no religion at all to be more convincing, sometimes while being very virtuous. Do all these people really deserve eternal torment because of that? -- lpetrich
82. The above arguments also apply among different sects of Christianity, many of which state that most others are not True Christianity. -- lpetrich
83. Is it reasonable for the Creator and Ruler of such a vast Universe to be preoccupied with the sexuality of a species living on a tiny little planet? -- lpetrich
84. If the Christian god was all loving and all knowing why did he let religious figures such as Mohammed or Gautama Budda be born, knowing that they would mislead people from the 'true' faith and trick the majority of the world's population into burning forever in hell (in fact, if Islam didn't start, most of the middle east would probably be Christian). It would simple to use the Holy Spirit to guide them to Jesus and spread the 'true' faith. If the Holy Spirit exits, it certainly isn't doing it's job!
85. If one is obliged to follow all the teachings of the bible then why is engaging in homosexuality or adultery any worse than "suffering a witch to live", "muzzling the ox that treadeth the corn", "reaping the corners of thy field", "marring the corners of they beard", "plowing with an oxen and an ass", "hating thy brother in thy heart" or "eating frogs, shellfish and eels" ?
86. Exactly how did the alleged worldwide flood kill off all the world's sea creatures? How does one go about drowning a fish? -- Steever
87. Why did this alleged god create humans as an animal form of life that gets sick and dies and experiences pain and has a limited mind when 'it' could have created humans as a form of pure energy or of some indestructible material or whatever, and was totally ?sinless? and had ?pure? thought? If a god was omnipotent 'it' could have easily have done this. --AI
88. If a god is omnipotent how did 'it' fail to foresee that Satan would turn against 'it'? --AI
89. What is a god supposedly made of? --AI
This list was compiled by the Infidel Guy with submissions from many members of the atheist community.
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"Oh, G-d Bless. Occam's Razor is NOT NOT NOT a proof any more than Proof By Repeated Assertion is a proof. Occam's Razor is a way of approaching problems so you don't chase down convoluted solutions (or proofs) because it is more likely that a SIMPLER explanation / solution / proof is correct, compared to a more COMPLEX one."
Indeed. You propose god, I see it as unnecessarily complex. No god is simpler. Proof? Maybe not, but sufficiently more than you can do.
Faith is not an argument.
"And if you'd like to know what Judaism contributed to our understanding of the Universe -- check "per capita religion of Nobel Prize winners". We're not a big religion, but we've done some pretty big things."
I didn't ask what the people of the religion have done, I asked how the religion adds to our understanding of the universe. I'll take your dodge as inability to answer the question.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
That would depend on how you define God then.
Oh, okay.
Right.
I'm a sophomore, majoring in physics. I'm just past introductory level courses, and I have not studied the Big Bang, so no, I don't really understand it.
Yes, but religions don't just repackage and condense the answers to questions about the world that ultimately require a scientific explanation. They invent absurd fairy tales as placeholders for things they don't understand. Are you implying that you believe that "Let there be light!" is a simplified explanation of the Big Bang? Surely, the fifth and sixth days aren't a simplified explanation of evolution?
Lol.
I'll have to see what he wrote.
I still don't get it. An atheist is someone that doesn't believe in any Gods. If you don't believe in any Gods, then you're an atheist.
Of course a lot of the questions here have nothing to do with the source texts. We criticize what people believe, not just what is written in their book. People believe lots of things that aren't in scripture.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
I don't have "faith". Heck, I even pointed out that "Appeals to faith" are stupid because they can't be falsified.
The "religion" is what makes us question things. We don't have this "hands off the sacred texts" problem that Christians have. We DO have thousands of years of tearing them apart and trying to understand what it all means. If you'd like to know what the RELIGION has contributed, as a religion, you'd have to understand what the religion IS, and not what you THINK it is. Which you've shown no interest at all in doing.
And glad to see you finally got SOMETHING write about logic. Occam's Razor isn't a proof of anything.
"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."
Yes, I've heard the folksy saying, very amusing. However, different opinions imply a lack of unified interpretation. What branch of Judaism represents your personal view ? Do you consider yourself above these distinctions ?
"I don't have "faith". Heck, I even pointed out that "Appeals to faith" are stupid because they can't be falsified."
Another dodge. I was agreeing with you. Now deal with the preceding paragraph.
"The "religion" is what makes us question things. We don't have this "hands off the sacred texts" problem that Christians have. We DO have thousands of years of tearing them apart and trying to understand what it all means. If you'd like to know what the RELIGION has contributed, as a religion, you'd have to understand what the religion IS, and not what you THINK it is. Which you've shown no interest at all in doing."
I don't have much interest in judaism because most denominations of it, if not all, claim the jews as a seperate people from humanity, which is at least as ridiculous as any claim the
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
christians make. I know they also believe in prophecy, and that they don't believe jesus fulfilled it. I've never seen a prophecy that wasn't based in the scientific method as part of a hypothesis which came true, and have no interest in magical sight through time.
Any of this off the mark? If not, then I stand by my point that your religion is no more real than any other. If so, feel free to enlighten me.
"And glad to see you finally got SOMETHING write about logic. Occam's Razor isn't a proof of anything."
I've been "write" all along, even if my initial strategy was incapable of affecting your argument.
It is highly suggestive that there is no god. I'll classify it as evidence.
I'll give you this much, you're more interesting than the average christian.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Define G-d? No, that's not a very Jewish thing to do. "Defining" G-d places human-invented limitations upon G-d. It is a form of idolatry -- people making up their own gods. To say that G-d is this, or G-d is that, is to say that G-d is also not something else.
Keep on agreeing with me and you might just accidentally become a Jew!
Put a whole lot of energy into a very small space. It expands and cools and condenses into "stuff". Put an extremely large amount of energy into a very small space and you can get an entire Universe out of it.
SOME religions do that. Not all religions are either Christianity or even Judaism. And Judaism is very different from Christianity -- it's not a "My god can beat up your god!" football-game-religion, where the "team" with the most players is supposed to win. Heck, it's not even a religion. For the most part it's a legal and ethical system combined with the history of the Jewish people. There's no "Hell", "Heaven" is pretty sketchy, and we aren't out to convert anyone. Don't want to be Jewish? Fine by me -- at least try to be a decent person, okay?
Fifth and sixth day? Sure, why not.
Hebrew is a TINY language. You want big narratives and lots of highly precise words, pick a more modern language. But also, the Jewish approach isn't some kind of strictly literal, only means one thing, never means anything else, approach. What can you learn from the narrative? How about, "We didn't create this universe we're in."
You want my opinion? What's more important to a pastoral group of nomads? Birds that have to be caught, or livestock that can be herded?
Want another opinion? When were cattle domesticated?
I've got more opinions, which is about how Judaism deals with that sort of narrative. There just aren't enough words to really say "This is definitely what it means!" I like the "Let there be light!" thing because it's really cool. It's even cooler in Hebrew -- "Light, be! And light was."
I could go look up what a bunch of Jewish scholars have had to say on the subject, but for the most part, that's what THEY have had to say on the subject.
Check out the part where he finally admitted that Occam's Razor isn't a proof of anything. In addition to trying to bluff me with science, he's also trying to bluff me with logic. Bad move.
Yes, and that's a fun game as well -- like, "Could you please show me where Jesus claimed to be god?" Non-Christians tend to have a pretty firm grasp on how Jesus was turned into a deity. Others are aware that there is no historical evidence at all for "Jesus". Peter and James? Historical. Paul? Historically a schmuck. Jesus? None.
And Jesus as a peace-loving Buddha hippy? Oh, please -- check out the "anti-Roman Rebel" credentials of his posse. That at least would be consistent with why the Romans crucified him. Not that there is any historical evidence for that either.
Why do I say Vastet isn't an atheist? Because he doesn't say "I dunno.", he makes declarative statements about what gods and goddesses are and aren't. He's constructed entire elaborate belief structures about gods.
Don't believe in G-d? Fine by me. Not my job to convert you to any particular religion. But don't be so presumptuous, like the Christians do, and tell me what G-d is or isn't. At that point it goes from being "I dunno" to "I have beliefs, and you are wrong, and I'm going to tell you all about my beliefs, and you're going to listen!" And that, is a religion.
"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."
I'd have to get you to stop making things up first. Perhaps when you stop making stuff up, then we can start discussing reality instead of your fantasy?
At least you aren't making a zillion responses to each of mine. Still making things up though.
Care to bring support for whatever it is about "separate" that you object to?
Are Canadians separate from the rest of the world? Brits? Americans? French?
You're like a Muslim I debated once. Said that the Torah was "evil" because there was a prophecy that Arabs were going to be at odds with the rest of the world, as well as with each other. So I pointed him at the present state of the Middle East and asked him if Arabs were at odds with each other as well as with the rest of the world. He blamed the Jews.
But still not letting you off on bringing some sources for whatever it is you've made up. And remember -- just like your non-existent understanding of Physics, Biology and Formal Logic, don't be trying to snow job me.
"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."
"Check out the part where he finally admitted that Occam's Razor isn't a proof of anything. In addition to trying to bluff me with science, he's also trying to bluff me with logic. Bad move."
I haven't bluffed anything. I poked a bit, since you are so dodgy it was the only way to get some basic information.
"Why do I say Vastet isn't an atheist? Because he doesn't say "I dunno.", he makes declarative statements about what gods and goddesses are and aren't. He's constructed entire elaborate belief structures about gods."
You aren't very good at this lying thing, or basic reading comprehension.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
"I'd have to get you to stop making things up first. Perhaps when you stop making stuff up, then we can start discussing reality instead of your fantasy?"
More projection. You're as familiar with it as a creationist.
"At least you aren't making a zillion responses to each of mine."
Ah, so you just skip to the last page. Learn to internet.
"Still making things up though."
Yes, you are.
"Care to bring support for whatever it is about "separate" that you object to?Are Canadians separate from the rest of the world? Brits? Americans? French?"
All human.
"You're like a Muslim I debated once. Said that the Torah was "evil" because there was a prophecy that Arabs were going to be at odds with the rest of the world, as well as with each other. So I pointed him at the present state of the Middle East and asked him if Arabs were at odds with each other as well as with the rest of the world. He blamed the Jews."
Let me guess your next flavour of stupidity: You're going to claim me as a holocaust denier.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
"But still not letting you off on bringing some sources for whatever it is you've made up. And remember -- just like your non-existent understanding of Physics, Biology and Formal Logic, don't be trying to snow job me."
So far you're the only one to take the route of making things up.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Alright, I can't take the time to respond to half a dozen posts in response to one of mine. Buy a real computer and then we can talk. And telling me to learn to "Internet" is to laugh -- some of us made the Internet what it is today. You were likely not born, or not much out of diapers, when I first "interneted".
And I'm sure that all the people whom you said are all the same (as in, "not separate"
are all very grateful for you declaring that. The fact that Canadians, etc. can all be discussed as "separate" groups of people, is pretty much the proof that most people are comfortable with.
And finally -- perhaps if you'd stop thinking in terms of "Christian" I'd stop appearing so "dodgy". You have an absolutely pathetic grasp of Science, Logic AND Theology. And the Internet.
"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."
It doesn't say that at all in the original text. "Broke up" would be a better, and far more accurate, translation. "Kill" is definitely not one of the translations of the verb that's used. See 2 Kings 3:26 --
The verb used for "break through" is the same verb that's being mistranslated as "killed" in question #11.
"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."
It actually shows nothing of the sort. The word that's interpreted as "meat" in the KJV doesn't mean "meat", it means "food". It also doesn't include a negative commandment, and in Judaism, that which is not forbidden is permitted.
"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."
"Alright, I can't take the time to respond to half a dozen posts in response to one of mine. Buy a real computer and then we can talk."
One post or 50, the content is the same. But I'm not surprised at your intellectual laziness. It fits with your fallacious reasoning, lies, and ad hominems to a T.
" And telling me to learn to "Internet" is to laugh -- some of us made the Internet what it is today. You were likely not born, or not much out of diapers, when I first "interneted"."
Quite the opposite my child, as you demonstrate.
"And I'm sure that all the people whom you said are all the same (as in, "not separate" are all very grateful for you declaring that. The fact that Canadians, etc. can all be discussed as "separate" groups of people, is pretty much the proof that most people are comfortable with."
What seperates the jews anyway? You have no borders, no pure bloodline seperate from the rest of humanity, nosingle distinct culture. All you have is a different religion. Insufficient.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
"And finally -- perhaps if you'd stop thinking in terms of "Christian" I'd stop appearing so "dodgy". "
I did so almost immediately. But you didn't stop dodging.
"I'd stop appearing so "dodgy". You have an absolutely pathetic grasp of Science, Logic AND Theology. And the Internet."
Yes, you do. Too bad you must project your ignorance instead of fixing it.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Because the text doesn't actually say "the entire earth". The story is much more dramatic if "land" is interpreted as "the entire earth", but the word that's used for "land" isn't the word that's used for "entire earth". For example, "earth" in the KJV, Gen 7:6, isn't "earth", it's "land", as in "state" or "region". Additionally, there have been wide scale floods of epic proportions in that region, in human lifetime.
(And someone needs to do their math better -- the highest mountain is just over 29,000 feet, which is much closer to 6 miles than 4.)
"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."
The "sin" in that passage isn't Noach getting drunk, it's one of his son's being disrespectful towards him. Christians are the ones who mostly have issues with drinking. Jews don't.
See earlier debunking of "flooding the earth".
"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."
This is a Christian-based misconception of what the text says. The word that is mistranslated as "rest" is "shabbat". Of the 71 instances of shin-bet-tav in the Torah, the KJV translates most as "cease". However, contextually it is "cease from creating". It doesn't doesn't mean "cease from doing" or "rest" or "I'm tired". In addition to not being Christians, Jews are also not Muslims who can't seem to grasp the meaning of Hebrew words so well either.
"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."
Could you bring a source that says G-d is male?
This is a difficult concept for English speakers, but the only reason G-d is "male" is because the majority of the words used for "G-d" have masculine gender. There are, however, words for G-d that have feminine gender.
And no, G-d doesn't have a penis.
"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."
Since you repeatedly address Christianity's theological and linguistic foibles ( ..and in order to cut out the atheist middle man ) I made an attempt to divert one our forum's more knowledgeable Christian theists to this thread. If he chooses to participate perhaps you could offer to enlighten him.
Then why did you, just a few posts up, compare me AGAIN to Christians? Did Satan (not that Jews believe in "Satan"
make you do it?
"I know you are, but what am I?"
I'm still waiting on the "Love-O-Meter" or at least a journal article which claims to explain how to measure "Love".
I've also proven that you just plain have NO clue what "Logic" is about. The list of Logical Fallacies you apparently have doesn't include "How to construct a reasoned argument", nor does it seem to explain that RELIGION and PHILOSOPHY cannot be "argued" using formal Logic. Which, by the way, you may learn if you ever actually go to University and study Reason and/or Logic. Having studied both, probably before you were born, I assure you -- if you tried to "argue" religion in a Logic class the Prof would laugh at you.
The rest -- no clue. You use a video game console to post to the Interwebs and you describe yourself as a "Gamer God". Are you even an ADULT? Do you even know what "Projection" means?!? Have you studied ANY religion well enough to debate it, because you're a poseur. A fake, a fraud, a foney. A wannabe intellectual.
"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."
Thanks! I love Christians. I'd love Christians to stop being Roman polytheists
"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."
Interesting. 7 posts in a row, only broken by my response, and all this with the sad claim that I have too many posts to deal with.
Are there any theists at all who don't practice such hypocrisy?
Hmm. Need popcorn. I almost considered starting a thread for those two to hash it out. Should they begin a discussion, it should be most intriguing to watch. Formal debate lacks the time to expand upon points properly, and I've never seen a yec xtian and a jew discuss their "finer" points.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
You were right about the divided nature of opinions regarding Jews and their religious interpretations ....
http://www.outreachjudaism.org/satan.html
Better yet, I learned that apparently Satan is actually an obedient angel who just has a dirty job to do. That's so cool.
Check out this URL -- http://www.rationalresponders.com/time_and_temperature_theory
It's Vastet's "time and temperature" theory in which he claims (!) that time and temperature are "linked" so that as the Universe approaches heat death "time" is going to "stop". No comprehension of any of the Physics associated with "End of the Universe" theories, including the ones that involve the entire Universe self-destructing as all the binding forces in the Universe cease to function ("Big Rip"
.
I also found (!) that he's just completed Grade 11 (or maybe that was last year), but that in any event, he thinks that when he graduates he's going to have better arguments BECAUSE HE GRADUATED! ("Fallacy of Proof by Appeal to Authority" -- "I graduated high school, therefore I'm smarter!"
But it gets even better than that -- I was right about having used the Internet before he was even born. Assuming he's 18 years old right now, he'd have been born in 1991. Not only was I already on the Internet in 1991, I already had the Internet at my house (my first personal Internet connection was in 1986 or 1987), and had started using the Internet in 1981.
I hate poseurs. I really do. HATE HATE HATE.
"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."
Satan isn't even an "Angel". It's just the word that means "Thing that gets in the way."
And Judaism has got to be the coolest religion in the world. We have the best holidays, best food, and best stories.
A rabbi and his wife are having marital relations on Friday night, on account of the it's the Sabbath (and sex on the Sabbath is practically a requirement). All of the sudden, the rabbi hears a noise from under the bed, he jumps out of bed, looks underneath and sees one of his students.
"What are you doing under there!?!", the rabbi exclaims.
"This, too is Torah.", replies the student.
"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."
Well, I don't want you to misinterpret my pov. I am an atheist
( formerly a fundamentalist Christian ) but even though that sets me outside of your theological universe, so to speak, I still find it all somewhat interesting. Not being a theist sort of disqualifies me from defending any spiritual theories but I do like to observe a good throw down. Especially between opposing belief systems.
We all have different debating styles here. Some of us here can remain emotionally detatched and move the discussion forward briskly and some of us are a little more "touchy" and have thinner skin. Although I'm not always consistent I prefer to avoid acrimony whenever possible.
Anyway, welcome to the forum.
I know what you mean about this as I was doing the same from 1978 until 1994 at a company involved in tape and disk storage, which is now part of Sun. I was first doing Internet in about 1976 at another company as a design engineer simulating circuit calculations and sharing the information with the home office by 300 baud on a Decwriter.
By the way, I did study Judaism in college as part of my grad degree (at a Jesuit University) many years ago and I understand your position. Unfortunately I don't read Hebrew, just English and Spanish but I usually use the JPS Hebrew translation not the KJV as that has a myriad of translation issues. If you know of a better English translation I'd be interested. I looked at the verses you were discussing earlier such as the bear incident and JPS indicates tore 42 children of them, but it doesn't say killed. What you indicate is the correct translation would be chased away.
Also as you say, 2 Jews in the room, three views applies to much of what you have been discussing. There are many positions taken by Jews on the issues you have discussed so far in this thread that are dissimilar to your position. Not that I disagree with you, at all on the points you make regarding Christian distortion of Jewish scripture. I have always insisted that Christians point out exactly where Jews have misinterpreted their own scripture and when. So far, none have been able to do so.
Prozac has suggested to a Christian in another thread to come see you. He is the latest to make the claim Jesus fulfills all the prophecies, somewhat impossible, but he tends to have a very distorted idea of Jewish views.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
Throwing down with Jews is always fun because I'm never going to say "You've got to believe in Moses or you will die and go straight to HELL!"
Mostly on account of we don't believe in Hell. And Moses isn't G-d. And Jews don't think non-Jews need to run off and become Jews. And a lot of other stuff.
First, good to be here.
Second, normally I have a very thick skin. I pretty much hate poseurs -- don't much care what race, color, creed, beliefs about G-d or not, or whatever. But when a teenager posting with a video game console starts telling me I don't know what I'm talking about, I'm going non-linear.
"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."
EMC? Aren't they the ones Sun bought?
And no, I mean real Internet Protocol Internet -- I had my first dialup in '78 or '79, I want to say. It's been forever ago.
Decwriters were DEFINITELY the bomb. I went from using a Decwriter on a PDP-11 to using a VT52 on a VAX in the late 70's / early 80's and it was SO sweet to be able to grab a handful of paper and look back a few pages. I wasn't happy until later on in the 80's when I first started using X/Windows and was able to scroll back on an Xterm.
The JPS in English is pretty good. I forget which all I still have as I gave a Torah to my older brother after Dad passed away earlier this year. He's a crazy Christian and I figure it's my little contribution to turning him into a Yid on account of Dad's family has Jews all over the family tree (so does Mom's), even though we were all raised Christian. And then I got much better and headed back to the Tribe.
I wasn't much of a Paulist during my times in the Church -- used to drive ministers crazy asking pointy headed questions. Returning to the Tribe made my brain hurt SO much less. Even used to drive my father crazy -- I was arguing that G-d (l'havdil) doesn't have a penis by age 12. Still believed in Jesus, just didn't believe in all the things Paul made up. Then I ran into a Jew who had patience enough to put up with me and answer all my questions. They made a heck of a lot more sense than Christianity, so I gave up Jesus for Lent one year.
Giving the scriptures a good working over is a very Jewish thing to do. For example, claiming that Jacob "tricked" his father into giving him Esau's blessing is one of my favorites. To me, a deal is a deal and the fault lies with Esau. But a more "normal" understanding is that Jacob acted wrongly. I've yet to have a rabbi get as upset with me as my ministers used to get with me.
Sigh.
Does this guy understand that an ethical atheist ranks higher than an unethical Paulist in the grand scheme of the Universe? Christians have a really hard time grasping what "sin" is really all about and that it's impossible for someone to "atone" for your (individual) sins. That was something else I couldn't stomach about Christianity -- an axe murderer who accepts Jesus before being given a lethal injection gets the free pass into heaven, but someone who feeds the hungry, heals the sick, clothes the naked, and can't seem to believe in G-d goes straight to Hell. Justice? On what planet is THAT "Justice"?
"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."
Cat,
Your assertion of Roman polytheism is actually just funny. You seem more in line with the new age relativistic/cultural Judaism. I respect you a face value for being a Jew, but you seem to be less fervent for your God than Christians are for theirs, for what it's worth.
By the way, you can stop with pretending you are extra-Jewish by silencing the o in God, we all know what you are saying with or without it and it's either taking the name in vain or it isn't... God is a title of what God is, not His name. His name is YHWH Yahweh or Jehovah in English, so if you so desire to play reverent, avoid that instead.
The Trinity is a solution to all the Jewish mysteries of old… not a problem or polytheism.
Consider:
“Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.” Gen 1:26
“Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil.” – Gen 3:22
“Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another’s speech.” – Gen 11:7”
“And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” – Isa 6:8
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.
The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness;
you have loved righteousness and hated wickedness.
Therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions;” – Psalm 45:6-7
(God refers to God as ‘your God… unless you think that the Psalmist was referring to David as God, capital G. This is clearly referring to Yeshua (Jesus) the God-man, Messiah… both persons are referred to as the Hebrew Elohim)
“The LORD says to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand,
until I make your enemies your footstool.” – Psalm 110:1
(The Trinity is fact or you believe in a schizophrenic God.)
“Behold, I send my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me. And the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming, says the LORD of hosts. But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap.” – Mal 3:1-2
(Here again we have one speaking ‘the Lord of Hosts’ distinguishing Himself from ‘The Lord whom you seek.’ )
Also..
“But I will have mercy on the house of Judah, and I will save them by the LORD their God. I will not save them by bow or by sword or by war or by horses or by horsemen." – Hos 1:7
(Here we have the Lord speaking ‘I’ and referring to the LORD their God.)
I think this sets the stage that there is either more than one God which Isaiah clearly tells us there is but one, or the Trinity is partially revealed in the Old Testament, and clearly so I think…
“Who told this long ago?
Who declared it of old?
Was it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other god besides me,
a righteous God and a Savior;
there is none besides me.
"Turn to me and be saved,
all the ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.” – Isa 45:21-22
There is no avoiding this problem my friend. There has never been and still there is no agreement of Rabbinic interpreters… I take it you are aware of the poor explanations that have been offered up over the centuries… I’ll let you present a defense before I explain your folly further on this point.
I do have a few questions…
If Jesus isn’t the Messiah, how are you currently offering sacrifices for your people?
One last problem… how do you deal with this contradiction without Jesus?
“But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live."
Contrasted with:
“In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up…” – Isa 6:1
Take care.
PS: Scholarship over the past 2000 years lets us know there is no way to avoid this through arguing linguistics.. that is why Rabbi's have never been able to agree on this... and whatever knowledge of Hebrew you might have, I suppose it outweighs the 50+ PHD's on the ESV Translation Committee.
Speaking Truth in love,
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ..." - Paul to the Corinthians
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Christian | Amaterialist | Supernaturalist | Anti-Crypto-Theist
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Facts do not speak for themselves.
LOL
Re: time/temperature, I came up with that while stoned more than a decade ago. I just wanted to see what anyone had to say about it...3 years ago. For the occasion, I got stoned again to try and get back in the same frame of mind. It almost worked, but my experiences since then caused a dissonance, so I gave up on trying to figure out how I'd figured it out.
Re: age, you're more than a decade off, so go suck a dick kid.
Re: education, most everyone looks at at grad with more respect than a dropout, regardless of your fallacious belief of fallacy.
So now that I've reduced you to nothing but ad hominems, I can officially declare complete victory over the intellectually disabled jew.
That was far too easy.
Edit: One more for the lulz. Anyone who thinks the internet in the 80's is remotely comparable to even the 90's REALLY needs to learn to internet.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
I worked for Storage Technology who was bought out in 2005, though I left them for self employment in 1994.
I didn't get into that until about 1984 when I managed a CAD/CAM department. I had a home terminal and a 9600 baud modem if I remember. StorageTek had VM systems which I learned before PCs. Since we were a technology company and I was in design development we got all the new toys. Two of the last products I worked on were the automated library system and the large disk array drives. I was a manager over power systems development by then so I did little design and lots of managing.
Thanks, that's what I thought.
I come from a fundamental Lutheran family back to Luther in Germany. My real names are Paul John, very religious parents. I deserted to the Catholic Church when I was 19. That helped my overall education in religion and theology and resulted in my eventual conclusion everything I had been taught wasn't true. What was true? Not the distorted explanations of Christianity. Eventually I took this further based on my hobbies studying ancient history and archeology concluding most if not all of the religious beliefs were based in myths and legends. If I ever I would accept any religion at all, it would be Judaism, after all the scripture originated with the Jews and it is unmorfed into the distortion instituted by Paul the deceiver. However, I consider much of scripture to be based in legends which relate to other gods in the ancient world. Though I understand that this isn't a real problem in some understandings.
I agree, Esau made a sale, end story.
I agree, how can Dalmer and those like him be saved while people who do good all their lives are damned.
I see he has arrived so you can explain to him far better than I.
____________________________________________________________
"I guess it's time to ask if you live under high voltage power transmission lines which have been shown to cause stimulation of the fantasy centers of the brain due to electromagnetic waves?" - Me
"God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, - it says so right here on the label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks please. Cash and in small bills." - Robert A Heinlein.
I'm not sure what you mean.
Of course, if you precisely define a word, then there are things which would not fit the definition of that word. Is God everything?
Okay. I'll do my best.
Why not? It's not even in the right order. According to this chapter, God makes all the birds before he makes any land animals.
<sarcasm> Oh great </sarcasm>, exnihilo is in this thread now. I don't want to talk to him anymore, but you can try to knock some sense into him if you want. It'll be really fun; I promise.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
And your point is? Three years ago I could have told you that you were wrong, the same as I could have told your parents on the day you were born that you were wrong. You're speaking out of school, but being in your 20's (please, don't tell me you're in your 30's because then I'm really going to think your brain is fried from too much getting stoned) and male, you are aptly demonstrating that 20-something men generally know far less than they think they know.
More than a decade off and you're stuck using a PS3 to post to the interwebs? Dude. Get off the net, finish your education, get a job, then get a real computer. And while you're at it, quit getting stoned and wasting your life playing video games.
And is telling a woman to "suck a dick" supposed to be nearly as insulting as saying that to a man? Men are weird. Your insults are weird. Your girlfriend, assuming you might someday have one, would probably take "suck a dick" very differently than an insult. Of course, you might not get a girlfriend if she knew you insult people who suck dicks for sucking them.
And I'd suggest your gay, based on your misogynistic comments, but then you'd be hating on yourself and whomever you engage in genital whatever. In short, about the only thing that makes sense for you as a sexuality is asexuality. Which would go well with getting stoned and playing video games all day.
I judge people based on their knowledge and integrity. You know nothing and you lack integrity. Not being mean or making an ad hominem, just saying that you've demonstrated no knowledge of Science or Formal Logic, or the implications of telling someone to "suck a dick". And perhaps getting stoned has rotted your brain. Just saying.
Duh. My first computer had 4K of RAM. Were you even ALIVE then? Or is this more speaking out of school?
"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."
Consider the Christian "G-d is Love" thing. They've taken it to such an extreme -- that G-d is not also the origin of all the other emotions, good and bad -- that they've had to invent a completely separate demigod (Satan) to attribute all the attributes they don't want to attribute to G-d. By =defining= G-d, they've been forced to invent a new god, whom they then imbued with enough power that a "battle" between the real G-d and their fake god is in full swing.
Heh. G-d is "No Thing". There is no thing, such that you can name that thing and say "G-d is <that thing>." Some of it is just that Christians "decided" what G-d supposedly is. Some of it is the nature of words. But all of it comes down to a form of idolatry. Who are =we= to define G-d?
If I was into herding cattle, I'd put "cattle" a lot higher up the order of importance. Like, we're on Day #6. So, maybe it isn't about evolution at all? As in, like, it's about the development of food or something. Consider that cattle weren't domesticated until VERY late in the game.
Or put another way, who says the Bible is a science text book in the first place? It sure doesn't.
Yeah, I noticed. He wants me to give G-d his "o" back. Funny how Christians are all about the "O".
"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."
Shalom Aleichem, Ex Nihilo. I've been waiting for you
However, I have dinner to make and I already spent some of my pre-dinner typing time typing to people less ... contrary.
Good news -- most of what you wrote is easily dismissed.
1). Most of the plurals are "plurals of respect" and looking at the "number" of the verbs that are used verifies that. As with many languages, Hebrew verbs have "person, gender and number". "va'yomer Ad-nai el-Moshe ..." -- "And G-d said to Moses" -- has the verb "yomer". First person, masculine, singular. It's "The Royal We".
2). Many of the instances of "LORD", "Lord" and "lord" in English are entirely different words. Psalm 110:1 is a perfect example of that. The first "LORD" is the four letter ineffible (that means "can't be spoken", including to pretend it means something that would definitely be misspelled in Hebrew -- we have no "J" and no "W". Arabs, yes -- "J" and "W". Jews -- no such letters) name of G-d. The second "Lord" is the same "Lord" used to refer to a prince, king, boss, or other ruler as ones "superior". I used the same "My LORD" when I translated "Va'yomer Ad-nai el-Moshe ...". It doesn't say alef-dalet-nun-yud, it says yud-hey-vav-hey.
3). Dittos for Malachi 3:1, except that reading it in Hebrew makes perfect sense. G-d is going to send a "malak" (angel, messenger) before the ruler ("Ha'Adon" -- "the Lord"
appears in the Temple. More talk about angels. It ends with "Ad-nai Tzavot", which is the four letter name of G-d and "Hosts".
4). Hosea 1:7 is the construct "Ad-nai El-him" with a 3rd person possessive ending. Those two words are more typically translated as "The LORD G-d" in English texts, but since English can't just tack on the gender and number in a single letter the way Hebrew does, it has to insert entire personal pronouns.
5). Semetic languages use repetition for emphasis and poetic impact. For centuries, these texts were chanted to melodies. Read Psalm 23 -- then look for the parallel passages.
6). I'll see your polytheism and raise you Deut 6:4. The word for "One" isn't "One" as in "One, Two, Three", it's "One" as in "Unique", "Incomparable", "Inseparable", "Indivisible". Additionally, the "is" that the KJV inserts between the 4th and 5th Hebrew words (the verse is only six words in Hebrew) is in the wrong place. Hebrew is a "VSO" language -- Verb, Subject, Object -- and "is" is implied where there is a Subject, Object and no verb. The correct translation is "Hear O' Israel -- The LORD is your G-d, The LORD is One" (where "One" is all those things I mentioned earlier, including not part of a polytheistic three-for-the-price-of-one deal.)
7). If the "Trinity" is so important for my salvation, perhaps you could find the verse where Jesus claims in clear and unambiguous language that he is "god", his father is "god" and some holy ghost thing is also "god". Since Christians claim the "New Testament" is the "Old Testament" revealed, you should be able to find multiple examples of where "Trinity" is clearly revealed. Not that you can find any.
Of to make me some nice kosher chili for dinner!
"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."
Bacon wrapped shellfish is so delicious. Wouldn't you like a bite?
Awesome, the first punch has been thrown. In the words of ring announcer Michael Buffer .....LET'S GET READY TO RUMBLE !!!
Why does his comment make him seem gay? Is there something wrong with being gay? Please elaborate.
Theism is why we can't have nice things.
Because presumably if he had a girlfriend, he'd want her suck his Manhood. But obviously, he views doing that as an insult. So he can't possibly have a girlfriend. Except that if he were gay, he'd want his boyfriend to do that. In any event, since more women than men are into sucking said male member, it's obviously a woman-hating comment, so assuming he hates women is safe. Which also implies that he's gay. But he can't be gay because plenty of gay men are into sucking such things. Which means he's obvious not into sex at all, which explains the video game addiction.
And no, nothing wrong with being gay.
"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."
The entire discussion is going to go the exact same way. Unless he starts talking about "sin" and "salvation". Or anything else, for that matter. But that's how it's going to go.
(Grrr -- should have paid more attention to chili. I forgot to add the salt.)
Not to worry -- you atheists will get your going over eventually. Just depends on how long it takes for this guy to lick his wounds and leave. And keep in mind -- all I want is for him to stop being a polytheist. That and lying about Hebrew texts.
"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."
Oops, I missed one.
"Then why did you, just a few posts up, compare me AGAIN to Christians? Did Satan (not that Jews believe in "Satan" make you do it?"
More like because you're acting like one.
"I'm still waiting on the "Love-O-Meter" or at least a journal article which claims to explain how to measure "Love"."
Which is a strawman of what I said at best, a demonstration of complete ignorance of biology at worst. So I continue to ignore your irrelevant commentary.
"I've also proven that you just plain have NO clue what "Logic" is about."
Quite the opposite. You made fallacy after fallacy, and then whined like a baby and had a temper tantrum after I pointed it out.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
"The list of Logical Fallacies ~ if you tried to "argue" religion in a Logic class the Prof would laugh at you."
With good reason. Religions are illogical.
" You use a video game console to post to the Interwebs and you describe yourself as a "Gamer God". Are you even an ADULT?"
How amusing that you are so ignorant, and continue with the irrelevant attacks in the the process. Are all jews this bad at debate, and as good at making complete asses of themselves?
It just so happens that the majority of gamers are adults, myself included. It also happens that this is currently my only access to this site. It also happens that it is only temporary.
And to add yet another point, I call myself a gaming god to piss ignorant morons like yourself off, and prove how ignorant they are by attacking the signature in the first place.
"And your point is? ~ far less than they think they know."
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
So could I. Yet another example of poor reading comprehension. I could have done so back in 2005 when I first posted it online. Though when I first came up with it is a different story. But we live and learn. Yet you even attack my seeking a proper education, proving the intellectual void you exemplify. You also suggest that I can't seek an education and post and work at the same time, and compound your error by relying on one and a half year old data. You really are quite pathetic. My 8 year old niece has a better grasp of logic and proper debate than you. You make assumption after assumption with nothing to back it up.
"And while you're at it, quit getting stoned and wasting your life playing video games."
I'm not wasting my life, you are wasting yours.
"And is telling a woman to "suck a dick" supposed to be nearly as insulting as saying that to a man?"
The comment wasn't based on your gender, it was a recommendation for an activity you might actually be good at. I recommend it no matter your gender.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Your pettiness also tempts me so dearly to start correcting your basic spelling errors. At least when I make them I have the excuse of not having a spell checker. You however apparently have a real nice computer, I suggest you learn how to use it properly, in between your irrelevant ad hominems of course.
"I judge people based on their knowledge and integrity. ~ Just saying."
I judge people based on how they present themselves in debate, how they treat others, and how delusional their beliefs are. You fail on all three. Perhaps not getting stoned has eroded your capacity for constructive conversation and common decency, and helped box your mind in foolishness.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
"Duh. My first computer had 4K of RAM. Were you even ALIVE then? Or is this more speaking out of school?"
My first computer was a COCO2. It also had 4kb of ram. It used cassette tapes instead of the 5 1/4 discs that were more common at the time, and it had no hdd. Not that many did in those days.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Judaism isn't the only monotheist religion out there, and we're also not the only form of ethical monotheism. We're just the one that supposedly gave birth to Christianity and Islam. At least Islam is monotheism and not polytheism the way Christianity is.
Paul was a creature of his times. He was a Hellenized Jew and a fairly disobedient member of the Jerusalem community that existed in the 40's. Acts records where Paul was told to quit inventing a new religion, and stick to the basic ethical values that the Torah applies to all non-Jews. Paul told Peter and James to get stuffed, then he went out and invented Christianity.
Meanwhile, Peter abandoned the community and went back to being a garden variety Jew and James was stoned for being too Jewish in 55CE, if I remember correctly. By the 60's, Paul had strayed so far with his band of followers that his entire group of followers were excommunicated.
All that, for what it's worth, is completely historical. The only part that relies on Christian texts is where Paul was told to quit preaching his made-up religion to Jews, and limit his teachings to normative Jewish beliefs to the non-Jews he was going after. Since its supported by what's recorded outside the Christian texts, I tend to assume its correct.
After the Allies defeated the NAZIs, NAZIs went around begging Jews for forgiveness. In Christianity, if you ask to be forgiven, the person has to forgive you. Or at least, eventually Jesus will. In Judaism, if you can't fix what you broke, oh well, tough luck. On the other hand, if you've not harmed anyone, no problem. Much more sensible approach to dealing with human behavior.
"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."
A CoCo2 with 4K of memory? Not at all possible -- you might try using that video game console of yours to check up on the history of the CoCo 2. But you keep can believing that so you think you can talk computers with the grown-ups.
Were you a "Gamer God" back then as well? Perhaps still in diapers? Were the colors really pretty?
5 1/4" disks were only common among people with home or game computers. I built my first cassette I/O interface in 1976, I think it would have been. Might have been 1977. Note the words "I" and "built", not "Mommy and Daddy bought me". Calling a CoCo a computer is a lot like calling my Microwave Oven a computer. Sure, it has a microcontroller in it, but I don't think it's much useful for programming. A bit like the PS3 that you think is a computer. Not that it can't be MADE into a computer (have you considered installing Linux on it? Then you wouldn't have whatever "text limit" you have), just that you probably wouldn't know what to DO with a computer. You Gamer God, Interweb surfing expert, you. Ever written a web server? Do you even know HOW to write a web server? Operating system? Compiler? If you had to, could you write a boot strap loader? Ever written a device driver? Interrupt handler? Know the difference between polling and interrupt driven? Have any Internet-related patents? Given enough time, do you know how to write all the software you used today, and could you? Not, like "Yeah, I guess maybe I could learn", but could you do it now with what you know? When the answer is "Yes", then you can lecture me on how to "internet".
When the CoCo 2 came out, some of us had computers with hard disk drives. Depending on when Mommy and Daddy bought you that CoCo2, my personal computers (as opposed to Personal Computers) were either 256K or 4MB time sharing systems (no, not MS-DOS or Windows, real time-sharing systems) and most likely connected to the Internet, depending on which end of the CoCo2 date range you're talking about. And definitely -- the computers I owned or used at work had hard disk drives and did more than play bad video games, and they didn't use an audio cassette tape.
But you keep on thinking you're going to talk religion, atheism, logic, computers or sex with the adults. Go back to your Gamer God antics, smoke a little more pot, and leave the grown-ups alone.
"Obviously I'm convinced of the existence of G-d. I'm equally convinced that Atheists who've led good lives will be in Olam HaBa going "How the heck did I wind up in this place?!?" while Christians who've treated people like dirt will be in some other place asking the exact same question."