Ask a Christian a Question

P3RFECT
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Ask a Christian a Question

Hello, I'm new here and i didn't feel like going to every thread and responding so i hope all of you get all the atheists and non atheists in here to have our discussion. Questions about Christianity. Now go tell everybody.

Also, please do one question at a time.


P3RFECT
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jcgadfly wrote: I'm trying

jcgadfly wrote:

I'm trying to equate what you just said with this statement you made earlier:

"Because, i have faith and with faith came experience then sight. Among other things"

Yes, and in that quote it doesn't mean i haven't researched before i came to faith. It says faith then came experience. I got into this with another person. I explained it already. 


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P3RFECT wrote: sugarfree

P3RFECT wrote:

sugarfree wrote:
Hi P3RFECT. Hang in there!

Thank you very much.

I've had a lot of discussions so i heard all before. I

If other theists want to help thats fine.

Pooling your lack of resources? Smiling 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


P3RFECT
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jcgadfly wrote: P3RFECT

jcgadfly wrote:
P3RFECT wrote:

sugarfree wrote:
Hi P3RFECT. Hang in there!

Thank you very much.

I've had a lot of discussions so i heard all before. I

If other theists want to help thats fine.

Pooling your lack of resources? Smiling

huh? 


Gauche
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P3RFECT wrote: zarathustra

P3RFECT wrote:
zarathustra wrote:
Outside of religion, is there anything else which you accept as true on faith alone, without any evidence?
I know that my mother isn't a serial killer. Becuase, i have faith she isn't

 

Having faith that your mother is not a serial killer is not the same as having faith in god. Your “faith” that your mom is not a murderer is based on experience. That’s different from religious faith because there is sufficient evidence to support that claim. You don’t have faith that other people you don’t know aren’t killers because you have no experience with them.

Your faith in god is not based on experience like the mother thing so we can’t draw a parallel there. You have to give an example of something you believe on faith, meaning there is no evidence for it but you believe anyway.

Unless your mother was a serial killer in the past and you meant that you have faith she is no longer a serial killer, in which case I retract my statement.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


rexlunae
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P3RFECT wrote: rexlunae

P3RFECT wrote:
rexlunae wrote:
Then what kind of experience was it? How was the revelation made? Surely you're not just making this up; where are the specifics?  Why? I don't see the point in this comment at all.
 Well, i rather just tell you private message cause i have to write a lot.

That doesn't seem very useful. The whole point of doing this in a thread is to answer the questions for everyone to see, and PM'ing doesn't accomplish that. Feel free to write a lot. But, keep in mind I'm not really asking about the details of your experience, just what kind of experience it was, and what you would conclude god is made of based on that in general terms (I'm not looking for a chemical formula here, unless you have one). If you really don't know what god is made of, I don't know how you can assume that you've had a real experience of it.

P3RFECT wrote:
What kind of God would he be if we can understand him?

I already responded to this.

It's only the fairy tales they believe.


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P3RFECT wrote: jcgadfly

P3RFECT wrote:
jcgadfly wrote:

I'm trying to equate what you just said with this statement you made earlier:

"Because, i have faith and with faith came experience then sight. Among other things"

Yes, and in that quote it doesn't mean i haven't researched before i came to faith. It says faith then came experience. I got into this with another person. I explained it already.

That's just it. You didn't explain it - you backpedaled from it when you got called on it.

Just like you're doing now.

Did the faith come before experience or vice versa? 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


P3RFECT
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Gauche wrote:   Having

Gauche wrote:
 

Having faith that your mother is not a serial killer is not the same as having faith in god. Your “faith” that your mom is not a murderer is based on experience. That’s different from religious faith because there is sufficient evidence to support that claim. You don’t have faith that other people you don’t know aren’t killers because you have no experience with them.

Your faith in god is not based on experience like the mother thing so we can’t draw a parallel there. You have to give an example of something you believe on faith, meaning there is no evidence for it but you believe anyway.

Unless your mother was a serial killer in the past and you meant that you have faith she is no longer a serial killer, in which case I retract my statement.

 Who's to say my faith in God isn't based on experience?

 

 


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P3RFECT wrote: sugarfree

P3RFECT wrote:

sugarfree wrote:
Hi P3RFECT. Hang in there!

Thank you very much.

I've had a lot of discussions so i heard all before. I

If other theists want to help thats fine.

Yes, this discussion is looking pretty familiar. They seem to generally go the same direction...ending in...stalemate. Except, a couple of mine here have ended quite dramatically! (I wouldn't recommend that, by the way.)


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jcgadfly wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

That's just it. You didn't explain it - you backpedaled from it when you got called on it.

Just like you're doing now.

Did the faith come before experience or vice versa?

I already explained it. Did I explain it perfectly when I was first asked? no.

I said i have faith then came experience. But, that doesn't mean I haven't researched to obtain my faith. That isn't backpedaling it's just a lack of a full explanation.


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rexlunae wrote: That

rexlunae wrote:
That doesn't seem very useful. The whole point of doing this in a thread is to answer the questions for everyone to see, and PM'ing doesn't accomplish that. Feel free to write a lot. But, keep in mind I'm not really asking about the details of your experience, just what kind of experience it was, and what you would conclude god is made of based on that in general terms (I'm not looking for a chemical formula here, unless you have one). If you really don't know what god is made of, I don't know how you can assume that you've had a real experience of it.
 

 Me answering the questions for each individual person. Everybody doesn't need to see, only those they ask questions for.

I saw and felt something, that was my experience in ultra short terms. 

 

That doesn't make sense at all. Because, i don't know what God is made of you concluded that means i haven't had an experience with him? 


zarathustra
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P3RFECT wrote: We all have

P3RFECT wrote:
We all have faith in certain areas but, compared to my belief in God. There is no comparison.

And why does god require more faith than other things?  Why do you not accept other things with the same level faith as god?

P3RFECT wrote:

zarathustra wrote:

Why shouldn't I concern myself with that? They can't be all correct -- suppose I learn about the wrong one?

They all follow the same thing. Just different opinions on certain areas and some are attached to human tradition.

They do not follow the same thing.  This represents a lack of knowledge on your part about the various (and incompatible) differences within christianity.  Their "different opinions" are important enough that they must withdraw to their separate denominations. 

 

P3RFECT wrote:
It is my experience and knowledge about what i believe that people have questions for. Personal experience is personal stuff only to that individual and if it is shared to others they will most likely not believe it.

How else should my thinking be based on. You ask questions about what i believe and i answer it. I don't say the reason is because, God did it, the end.

With all due respect, I am not at all interested in your personal experiences as an individual.  You must have a rather high opinion of yourself to think that I would.  You postured to be answering questions "about christianity", not merely about your personal experience.  If nothing you say can be applied outside the scope of your "experience", there is no point in continuing the conversation.

Your shift is over.  Clock out and go home. 

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
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P3RFECT
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zarathustra wrote: And why

zarathustra wrote:

And why does god require more faith than other things? Why do you not accept other things with the same level faith as god?

 What other things can you think of?

God requirs more faith because, it is more complicated to believe in a supreme being with no real physical evidence.  

This should of been easy to understand. 

 

zarathustra wrote:

They do not follow the same thing. This represents a lack of knowledge on your part about the various (and incompatible) differences within christianity. Their "different opinions" are important enough that they must withdraw to their separate denominations.

Incorrect. 

 The Bible is the same thing, the source of it all. What seperates them is the interpretations of the Bible and the traditions.

 

 

zarathustra wrote:

With all due respect, I am not at all interested in your personal experiences as an individual. You must have a rather high opinion of yourself to think that I would. You postured to be answering questions "about christianity", not merely about your personal experience. If nothing you say can be applied outside the scope of your "experience", there is no point in continuing the conversation.

Your shift is over. Clock out and go home.

I said experience and knowledge my friend. People have questions about what i believe in and want to know something. Sometimes knowledge is attached to personal experience.

Read more on what people say before you make your self look ignorant. 


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P3RFECT wrote: Gauche

P3RFECT wrote:
Gauche wrote:

Having faith that your mother is not a serial killer is not the same as having faith in god. Your “faith” that your mom is not a murderer is based on experience. That’s different from religious faith because there is sufficient evidence to support that claim. You don’t have faith that other people you don’t know aren’t killers because you have no experience with them.

Your faith in god is not based on experience like the mother thing so we can’t draw a parallel there. You have to give an example of something you believe on faith, meaning there is no evidence for it but you believe anyway.

Unless your mother was a serial killer in the past and you meant that you have faith she is no longer a serial killer, in which case I retract my statement.

Who's to say my faith in God isn't based on experience?

 

 

The bible:

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Bible: New Testament. Hebrews 11:1.

Romans 8:24-25: “For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.” (NKJV)

Would you like to learn more?

http://www.rationalresponders.com/doesnt_everyone_take_things_on_faith

 

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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Ask a Christian a Question

Reverend Greed wrote:

Hello,

When you say Christianity - which denomination are you refering to? The religion is so messed up amongst its believers that the believers can't decide how to unite.

You sure got that right! Just goes to show, you get ten humans in a room and they come up with twelve different ideas on how to do something.!

Seriously though, Paul was quite often telling people NOT to segment, but to be united. When we keep our focus on God, we will be more likely to be united.

That is the problem with Churchianity today, too many proud people wanting things their way instead of God's way.

[MOD EDIT - fixed quotes] 

Follower of "I AM" the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.


zarathustra
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P3RFECT wrote: God requirs

P3RFECT wrote:

God requirs more faith because, it is more complicated to believe in a supreme being with no real physical evidence.

This should of been easy to understand.

Indeed it is.  Then with no "real physical evidence", is faith in your god any different than faith in  unicorns or santa claus, or simply another god? 

This should be easy to understand.

 

P3RFECT wrote:

 

zarathustra wrote:
Their "different opinions" are important enough that they must withdraw to their separate denominations.

Incorrect.

The Bible is the same thing, the source of it all. What seperates them is the interpretations of the Bible and the traditions.

Correct.  Their different interpretations are important enough that  they must withdraw to their separate denominations.  So which interpretation is correct?

 

P3RFECT wrote:

I said experience and knowledge my friend. People have questions about what i believe in and want to know something. Sometimes knowledge is attached to personal experience.

So far, your knowledge seems to be nothing other than your experience, such as cannot be comprehended by another.  As long as that mutual dependence exists, there is no knowledge to be gained from you.

P3RFECT wrote:

Read more on what people say before you make your self look ignorant.

Why would you call me ignorant?  Are you having a bad experience? 

 

There are no theists on operating tables.

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P3RFECT
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First Paragraph: It's

First Paragraph:

It's different.

 

Second Paragraph:

The ones without human traditions and emotional/biased nit picking.

 

Third Paragraph: 

Prove it.

 

Fourth Paragraph:

You say.

They do not follow the same thing.  This represents a lack of knowledge on your part about the various (and incompatible) differences within christianity.  Their "different opinions" are important enough that they must withdraw to their separate denominations. 

I say.

Incorrect.

The Bible is the same thing, the source of it all. What seperates them is the interpretations of the Bible and the traditions.

 


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P3RFECT wrote: jce

P3RFECT wrote:
jce wrote:

You have not exibited any of that knowledge so far. Please feel free to do so at any time.

Your obviously not very good at reading the situation to come to this conclusion.

Actually, I am very good at reading the situation.  Thus far you have provided zero factual evidence to any of the questions posed.  You have entertained us with your belief in something but you have not explained it.  You have referred to personal experience about which no one cares.  We have all had personal experiences.  Yours are as meaningless as your god. 

 

 

P3RFECT wrote:
jce wrote:
Actually, many of us where christians so there really are few that we have other than the ones you have seen here. Here are a few that I have:

  1. How do you know you worship the right god given that there are so many branches of religion?
  2. Why do you want to worship a god?
  3. Why are believers so obsessed with making other people believe?

Just so you know, any answer you give that uses the bible as reference will be considered a non-answer. The same will apply with answers of strictly an emotional nature.

1.) Faith/experience

2.) Because, he makes me happy all over. Among other things.

3.) Some are and some are not. They want to spread the word to others because, they feel they are told to do so. 

I did ask you not to use an argument from emotion but you did anyway.  Doing this undermines any validity to your answers and it is annoying.  Faith is nothing more than a comfort tool that YOU feel you need in your life.  If you cannot provide any proof for your god or explain rationally why yours is better than any others, then why should we pose questions.  I re-read this thread and other than telling us how you feel about your god you have not answered any real questions.  Honestly, I do not care how you feel about your god.  We have heard all of that and more from others.  You seem to be of at least above average intelligence which implies some education so it is difficult for me to understand why you cannot come up with something better than "I feel I am right".

Can you or can you not provide factual/historical evidence of god, jesus or the holy spirit? 


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Here's a question.   Can

Here's a question.

 

Can you prove the existance of your god without using the bible or personal experience? 


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P3RFECT wrote: I saw and

P3RFECT wrote:
I saw and felt something, that was my experience in ultra short terms.

Ok, well that is a start anyway. So, you had an experience where you felt something, but how do you know that something was god? Do you ever feel things that are not, or that you believe are not? How did you distinguish your god-feelings from other feelings?

P3RFECT wrote:
That doesn't make sense at all. Because, i don't know what God is made of you concluded that means i haven't had an experience with him?

We'll start at the beginning and see how far we get.

It's only the fairy tales they believe.


Jacob Cordingley
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My question to you is. In

My question to you is. In the great scheme of things, despite all the empirical evidence against you and the fact that your faith isn't based on evidence, and your logic is flawed, and despite many of us here going to hell for not believing in Jesus, what it boils down to is the greatest question of all: Do you like profiteroles? With chocolate sauce?


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P3RFECT

P3RFECT wrote:
Rigor_OMortis wrote:

Why did God supposedly create us without our consent?

I don't remember being asked whether I want to exist or not, because certainly the answer would have been "no".

 

One more question: ok, God created us without our consent. Why is he threatening us with Hell now? How can you be considered "good" if you punish someone for something he didn't want to be part of in the first place?

God wants us to see the beauty of the universe so he created us.

You didn't answer his question. And he made some good points.

And what's so beautiful about eterntity in hell?

Quote:

God didn't create hell for humans

Who created it then?

Quote:

but, Jesus came and sacrificed himself for our sins so we can enter Heaven. We must accept him as our savior to not end up in Hell. Humans can't take responsbility for there own sins for it is to great.

Why even create this dilemma in the first place?

Quote:

We are all sinners nobody is truly good.

So your god purposely made evil beings, that can save themselves, and the goal of all existence is to simply beg for salvation and then go to bliss for all eternity?

 

Quote:

We all have free will to choose if you want to believe or not in God

Belief is not a choice. Common error.

"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'


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Do you expect to convert

Do you expect to convert anyone on here?


P3RFECT
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jce wrote:

jce wrote:

Actually, I am very good at reading the situation. Thus far you have provided zero factual evidence to any of the questions posed. You have entertained us with your belief in something but you have not explained it. You have referred to personal experience about which no one cares. We have all had personal experiences. Yours are as meaningless as your god.

Actually you are incorrect.

First of all if your educated in the belief system of Christianity you would know one thing. And that one thing is called faith.

Learn the definition and your paragraph right here is meaningless.

 

 

jce wrote:

I did ask you not to use an argument from emotion but you did anyway. Doing this undermines any validity to your answers and it is annoying. Faith is nothing more than a comfort tool that YOU feel you need in your life. If you cannot provide any proof for your god or explain rationally why yours is better than any others, then why should we pose questions. I re-read this thread and other than telling us how you feel about your god you have not answered any real questions. Honestly, I do not care how you feel about your god. We have heard all of that and more from others. You seem to be of at least above average intelligence which implies some education so it is difficult for me to understand why you cannot come up with something better than "I feel I am right".

 

And what emotion have i shown? Because i said it makes me feel happy all over? I can pick emotion from your paragraph right now. I can tell from your writing.

You are close minded and disrespectful for someones belief unable to understand why they believe what they believe so you place them in a catagory of ignorance such as they believe cause of fear or it makes them feel comfortable and whatnot.

If you want serious answers then give me serious questions.

 

Now lets get to your question.

jce wrote:

Can you or can you not provide factual/historical evidence of god, jesus or the holy spirit?

Evidence of God not to your satisfaction.

Evidence of Jesus? sure.

There are an amazing amount of evidence outside the Bible that shows Jesus was real, his teachings, his death/crucifixion, his tomb being empty and his resurrection.

The only thing that almost 100% of the Historians don't agree on i believe is the resurrection, prob tomb as well. The rest they do.

If you read the Bible, at face value, without a preconceived bias for finding errors – you will find it to be a coherent, consistent, and relatively easy-to-understand book. Yes, there are difficult passages. Yes, there are verses that appear to contradict each other. We must remember that the Bible was written by approximately 40 different authors over a period of around 1500 years, over several different continents. If the Bible would to be seperated it would equal over sixty books. Each writer wrote from a different perspective, to a different audience, for a different purpose. We should expect some differences! However, a difference is not a contradiction or an error. It is only an error if there is absolutely no conceivable manner in which the verses or passages can be reconciled. Even if we do not have the answer right now, that does not mean the answer does not exist. Many have found a supposed error in the Bible in relation to history or geography only to find out that the Bible is correct once further archaeological evidence is discovered.

http://www.formermuslims.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2898&highlight=quran http://www.carm.org/bible/extrabiblical_accounts.htm

http://www.geocities.com/atheistdivine/historicaljesus.html

http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/historical-and-scientific-proof-of-jesus-faq.htm

 

 


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Jacob Cordingley wrote: My

Jacob Cordingley wrote:
My question to you is. In the great scheme of things, despite all the empirical evidence against you and the fact that your faith isn't based on evidence, and your logic is flawed, and despite many of us here going to hell for not believing in Jesus, what it boils down to is the greatest question of all: Do you like profiteroles? With chocolate sauce?

What empirical evidence against me? 

Thats what faith means.

Logic flawed? How so?

If you believe you won't.

Never had it. 


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Maragon wrote:   Can you

Maragon wrote:
 

Can you prove the existance of your god without using the bible or personal experience?

 

nah, not really. 


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rexlunae wrote: Ok, well

rexlunae wrote:
Ok, well that is a start anyway. So, you had an experience where you felt something, but how do you know that something was god? Do you ever feel things that are not, or that you believe are not? How did you distinguish your god-feelings from other feelings?
 

 

 Because, it felt different then anything else. Also seeing too.


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P3RFECT wrote: rexlunae

P3RFECT wrote:

rexlunae wrote:
Ok, well that is a start anyway. So, you had an experience where you felt something, but how do you know that something was god? Do you ever feel things that are not, or that you believe are not? How did you distinguish your god-feelings from other feelings?
 

 

 Because, it felt different then anything else. Also seeing too.

Are you trying to be vague? How does the fact that it felt different than anything else help to know that it was from god? There are lots of sensations that you have probably never had, and I would bet that you would not assume they are direct from god. So I ask again, how could you tell it was from god?

And what did you see? This is the first time you've mentioned anything like that.

It's only the fairy tales they believe.


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todangst wrote: You didn't

todangst wrote:

You didn't answer his question. And he made some good points.

And what's so beautiful about eterntity in hell?

Nothing is beatiful about Hell. 

 I kinda did.

 

God created us to see the beauty of the universe.

We became sinful and went against God.

So if we don't not believe in him we will not enter Heaven.

 

todangst wrote:

Who created it then?

You didn't understand.

God created Hell. 

 I didn't create this bike for dogs. Meaning I created it for another purpose. 

 

 

   
todangst wrote:

Why even create this dilemma in the first place?

Humans sin, only way to be cleansed is through Jesus. God sacrificed son for us to be in Heaven. 

Is that the answer or did i missed something? 

 

todangst wrote:

So your god purposely made evil beings, that can save themselves, and the goal of all existence is to simply beg for salvation and then go to bliss for all eternity?

 nope he didn't. He made humans, humans went against God and became evil. So now he had to sacrifice son so he can save his creations he loves.

 

todangst wrote:
 

Belief is not a choice. Common error.

 

It depends, it is in certain ways. 

 

 

 


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Ask a Christian a Question

jce wrote:

"Here are a few that I have:

  1. How do you know you worship the right god given that there are so many branches of religion?
  2. Why do you want to worship a god?
  3. Why are believers so obsessed with making other people believe?

Just so you know, any answer you give that uses the bible as reference will be considered a non-answer.  The same will apply with answers of strictly an emotional nature."

I'll address the last part first. Asking someone a question about their god then telling them they can't use their holy book to answer is like asking you to explain evolution without referencing Darwin or his theory It would be irrational to ask someone about the Windows operating system but tell them they can't use Microsoft manuals to get their answer. Where else does one get the 'definitive answer' to a question about a god unless one goes to that gods holy writings. Let's be rational.

Speaking of which, what IS rational. The way I understand it, something is rational when it makes sense, or it fits, or "we can wrap our heads around it." In math you have rational numbers like 1,2,3, etc. and you have irrational numbers like pi, the square root of 2, and anything divided by zero. What is the difference? The irrational ones we haven't figured out completely, the rational ones we have. We know what to do with 2 and 6 million, we cna add them, subtract them, and do a multitude of things with them. The irrational ones may not be completely understood, but we can sometimes use them to answer questions we have, like what is the area of a circle with a diameter of 10 units?

It seems to me most folks here at coming at this religion thing irrationally. Belief in a god is by definiton irrational. Why? Because to believe in a god one must try to "wrap your head around" something you can't understand completly. As humans we have a difficult time with things we can't/don't understand. We MUST quantify, catagorize, compare and contrast, and rationalize. When we rationalize something we are trying to make it fit our way of thinking. How in the world could a human possibly rationalize the existance of a living, breathing, INFINITE god?!? We go bonkers just trying to contemplate the infiniteness of INFINITE. Our mind will ALWAYS put some kind of border or quantity on it.

Becaus we can't comprehend an INFINITE God we partition Him. "My God is a God of Love. He wouldn't allow suffering or pain or murder." They completely block out the other aspects of an INFINITE God. Others say "I'm a Catholic (Baptist, Episcopal, insert your own) and my God is the same!" or "I can't believe in Jesus because he was a WASP. I have personally heard these comments come out of people's mouths. They simply don't understand the concept of God, it is irrational to humans.

Now for the questions:

1. How do we know we worship the 'right' god since there are somany religions? First, 'religions' are simply a way to try to rationalize God. Because religions are of human origin, they are each and every one flawed to one degree or another. Second, which god is real or right? That is for each person to answer for themselves. I can't tell you Judiasm is the right way for you, or Islam is the right way for someone else. All I can say is the God of the Bible is 'right' for me. It is after all an individual choice. Which god do you believe is right? Or is your answer "none of the above?" Then that is right for you at this time. Can the 'right' one change? Yes, mine has, and from what I've read yours has also.

2. Why do I want to worship a god? I don't! Neither do most people. Worship (to me) implies loving another MORE than loving oneself, which goes against human nature. I have come to love my God more as time goes by, because I have learned more about Him, and about myself. This is similar to the way I love my wife. We have been married almost 18 years now. The love I had for her when we married is nothing compared to the love I have for her now, because we talk together and learn more about each other every day. We have a growing relationship. That is how it should be with God also.

3.Why are believers obsessed with making new believers? Why do you obsess about anything you believe in? Presumably one enjoys what one is doing (otherwise why the hell do it?), and don't we all tell others about what WE enjoy? When you got that new car, did you hide it in the garage and never take it out? NO! You drove that puppy everywhere and told everyone about it.

So if a believer has found something he deems to be more valuable than gold, silver, or even life itself, how could he not tell others and want them to partake also. The next time YOUR team wins a big game, let's see you not bragging...WE WON! Wait a minute...WE?!? You weren't there, yet you're bragging, aren't you. Same thing with a believer; they "weren't there, didn't do that" yet they brag as well.

 

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P3RFECT wrote: todangst

P3RFECT wrote:
todangst wrote:

You didn't answer his question. And he made some good points.

And what's so beautiful about eterntity in hell?

Nothing is beatiful about Hell.

I kinda did.

No, you did not.

 

 

todangst wrote:

Who created it then?

 

Quote:

God created Hell.

 

See any problem with that? The same god creates you, precisely as you are, creates the dilemma, and casts you off to hell.

 

todangst wrote:

Why even create this dilemma in the first place?

 

Quote:

Humans sin, only way to be cleansed is through Jesus. God sacrificed son for us to be in Heaven.

Is that the answer or did i missed something?

You did not answer the question. You merely repeated the dilemma.

 

todangst wrote:

So your god purposely made evil beings, that cannot save themselves, and the goal of all existence is to simply beg for salvation and then go to bliss for all eternity?

Quote:

nope he didn't. He made humans, humans went against God and became evil. So now he had to sacrifice son so he can save his creations he loves.

So your god purposely made evil beings, that cannot save themselves, and the goal of all existence is to simply beg for salvation and then go to bliss for all eternity?

todangst wrote:

Belief is not a choice. Common error.

 

Quote:

It depends, it is in certain ways.

Belief is not a choice. You can't simply choose to believe what you don't believe. Jump off a building and see if you can believe you are flying.

 

 

 

 

"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'


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P3RFECT wrote: jcgadfly

P3RFECT wrote:
jcgadfly wrote:

That's just it. You didn't explain it - you backpedaled from it when you got called on it.

Just like you're doing now.

Did the faith come before experience or vice versa?

I already explained it. Did I explain it perfectly when I was first asked? no.

I said i have faith then came experience. But, that doesn't mean I haven't researched to obtain my faith. That isn't backpedaling it's just a lack of a full explanation.

And yet you have not offered a single fact to explain yourself. You have gone round and round about faith, which is meaningless, as faith by definition is merely belief without fact or, preferably, belief against contrary evidence. Your god likes it that you believe against evidence. That's worth more than ascertained fact in his book. His book . . . you know, that bible that believers like to call holy. (You did know that "bible" just means book, didn't you?) As to answering questions on email privately, this is a forum. We generally expect answers here for everyone to see (and criticize...we do that to each other, too). You haven't responded to my challenge that you are a child, so I assume I am right. Even if you deny it I will assume you're just a kid. 
By the way, I have used both you and you're in this post so even you can see the difference. It's not merely a misspelling, it's a different word. Try to look it up in your dictionary if you're confused, hmmm?


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todangst wrote: See any

todangst wrote:

See any problem with that? The same god creates you, precisely as you are, creates the dilemma, and casts you off to hell.

Quote:

 He didn't create Hell for humanity my friend. Humanity made a choice to go against God. But, still gave us a way out.

 

todangst wrote:

You did not answer the question. You merely repeated the dilemma.

Quote:

Thats because, you didn't explain it clearly.

 

todangst wrote:

Belief is not a choice. You can't simply choose to believe what you don't believe. Jump off a building and see if you can believe you are flying. 

But, if evidence is shown to you that helps you think about believing in something you still have the choice to reject it or not. Thus choosing to believe it or not. 

 

 


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Ask a Christian a Question

Largo wrote:
Oh, by the way, It's a number of posts up, but somebody said Moses' family restarted humanity after the flood, and nobody called him on it. The flood guy was Noah, and the eight people who supposedly repopulated the entire earth were he, his wife, his three sons and their wives. A few people in my past have tried to explain that Noah's son Ham was dark skinned (guess he had a tan) and that he was the beginning of the black race. I never heard an explanation for Asians, or Australian aborigines, or Polynesians, or . . . well you get the idea. Moses was the guy with the staff that turned into a snake and then turned the Nile into blood. Later he became the head of the NRA. Do you remember now? Eye-wink

I'm ROFLMAO about that NRA thing! (Wipes tear from eye)

Some say that when Noah was drunk and in his tent that Ham didn't respect his father and just walked in and "saw his nakednes" so God cursed him, therefore he became black. I personally am not so sure about that. I do believe God used micro-evolution to change people into the so-called "races" we see today. As far as I'm concernd there is only ONE race...the human race!

Although there is the rat-race...

Follower of "I AM" the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.


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P3RFECT wrote:

todangst wrote:

See any problem with that? The same god creates you, precisely as you are, creates the dilemma, and casts you off to hell.

He didn't create Hell for humanity my friend. Humanity made a choice to go against God. But, still gave us a way out.

 

todangst wrote:

You did not answer the question. You merely repeated the dilemma.

Thats because, you didn't explain it clearly.

 

todangst wrote:

Belief is not a choice. You can't simply choose to believe what you don't believe. Jump off a building and see if you can believe you are flying.

But, if evidence is shown to you that helps you think about believing in something you still have the choice to reject it or not. Thus choosing to believe it or not.

Umm.

 


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Largo wrote:

Largo wrote:
And yet you have not offered a single fact to explain yourself. You have gone round and round about faith, which is meaningless, as faith by definition is merely belief without fact or, preferably, belief against contrary evidence. Your god likes it that you believe against evidence. That's worth more than ascertained fact in his book. His book . . . you know, that bible that believers like to call holy. (You did know that "bible" just means book, didn't you?) As to answering questions on email privately, this is a forum. We generally expect answers here for everyone to see (and criticize...we do that to each other, too). You haven't responded to my challenge that you are a child, so I assume I am right. Even if you deny it I will assume you're just a kid.
By the way, I have used both you and you're in this post so even you can see the difference. It's not merely a misspelling, it's a different word. Try to look it up in your dictionary if you're confused, hmmm?

 

Thats what Christianity wants buddy, faith. Your making this petty argument because, you can't accept that it just requires faith.

Did God say he likes us to believe against evidence?

Faith means lack of evidence or no evidence.

So the Bible means book, point?

Challange? as to how old am i?

Congratz you know the difference between you and you're.

 


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moonhawk wrote: I'll

moonhawk wrote:

I'll address the last part first. Asking someone a question about their god then telling them they can't use their holy book to answer is like asking you to explain evolution without referencing Darwin or his theory It would be irrational to ask someone about the Windows operating system but tell them they can't use Microsoft manuals to get their answer. Where else does one get the 'definitive answer' to a question about a god unless one goes to that gods holy writings. Let's be rational.

Are you fucking kidding me? There is no proof whatsoever in your holy book! I do not even need to reference Darwin to exlain evolution. There is a mountain of evidence to support that theory. You have nothing but one book that mimics earlier mythology and none of you all can even agree on the interpretation. Truly this is one the the most ridiculous and irrational statements I have heard. Theists will not hold their faith up to any scrutiny at all. They will not even look to compare it with something else for fear they may be wrong. Scientific theories are constantly tested specifically to LOOK for errors. Thus far, testing of evolution has only proved to support it further.

moonhawk wrote:
Speaking of which, what IS rational. The way I understand it, something is rational when it makes sense, or it fits, or "we can wrap our heads around it." In math you have rational numbers like 1,2,3, etc. and you have irrational numbers like pi, the square root of 2, and anything divided by zero. What is the difference? The irrational ones we haven't figured out completely, the rational ones we have. We know what to do with 2 and 6 million, we cna add them, subtract them, and do a multitude of things with them. The irrational ones may not be completely understood, but we can sometimes use them to answer questions we have, like what is the area of a circle with a diameter of 10 units?

You are comparing apples to oranges. Rational THOUGHT is used when someone looks at a concept skeptically. They weigh all of the evidence presented. They compare that evidence to what they already know and test it to see if it will hold true. No rational thought is used in faith. It is impossible by the definition of the word.

moonhawk wrote:
It seems to me most folks here at coming at this religion thing irrationally. Belief in a god is by definiton irrational.

Finally! We agree on something.

moonhawk wrote:
Why? Because to believe in a god one must try to "wrap your head around" something you can't understand completly.

No - one must believe in something that cannot be proven. One must accept the existance of a supernatural being for absolutely no reason at all.

moonhawk wrote:
As humans we have a difficult time with things we can't/don't understand. We MUST quantify, catagorize, compare and contrast, and rationalize. When we rationalize something we are trying to make it fit our way of thinking. How in the world could a human possibly rationalize the existance of a living, breathing, INFINITE god?!? We go bonkers just trying to contemplate the infiniteness of INFINITE. Our mind will ALWAYS put some kind of border or quantity on it.

I have no trouble conceptualizing an infinite universe. I have trouble with those that plug god into the equation to fit as an explanation for things they do not understand. The rest of your post does not even merit a response.


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P3RFECT wrote:

So you are saying that you do not have to provide any evidence at all because you have 'faith'?  Wow.  Gee, haven't heard that one before.  Ok, here is another question:  Why do you feel that you need to believe?

By the way, your links were not the earthshattering gems you may have anticipated.  The second one didn't work.  The first was just an opinion piece.  The third used the bible to prove jesus - wasn't real helpful.  The fourth actually was the best.  I will warn you though that the references listed have been refuted by historians and theologians.


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jce wrote:

jce wrote:

So you are saying that you do not have to provide any evidence at all because you have 'faith'? Wow. Gee, haven't heard that one before.

Huh? Do you mean scientific evidence or something?

 

jce wrote:

Ok, here is another question: Why do you feel that you need to believe?

Thats kinda like asking why do I need to feel like i have to love my parents. In a way.

I dont say i need to believe because, of this and that. I believe because, I know it's true. Through open minded search and faith.

You need to be conscience of your actions and have a open to see everything thoroughly. and find the truth.

 

jce wrote:

By the way, your links were not the earthshattering gems you may have anticipated. The second one didn't work. The first was just an opinion piece. The third used the bible to prove jesus - wasn't real helpful. The fourth actually was the best. I will warn you though that the references listed have been refuted by historians and theologians.

The third link gave a list of sources outside the Bible that talks about Jesus. Those are things historians accept that Jesus was real. Among other things.

 

I have a question for you. Do you think the Bible is good reliable source for Jesus being real? Such as the other historical facts about Jesus outside the Bible.


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P3RFECT wrote: Maragon

P3RFECT wrote:
Maragon wrote:

Can you prove the existance of your god without using the bible or personal experience?

 

nah, not really.

 

Then how can you justify your belief? 


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P3RFECT wrote: Huh? Do you

P3RFECT wrote:
Huh? Do you mean scientific evidence or something?

Yeah, that would be helpful. Look, as I stated earlier, I was a christian - attended parochial schools and everything. I have examined all of it and arrived at a different conclusion from you. I arrived at this conclusion because:

There is no evidence of god - any god.

The bible is a rip-off of legends and earlier mythology.

I do not need the threat of hell to behave myself.


P3RFECT wrote:
The third link gave a list of sources outside the Bible that talks about Jesus. Those are things historians accept that Jesus was real. Among other things.

As I said, there are also historians that do not accept these things.

P3RFECT wrote:
I have a question for you. Do you think the Bible is good reliable source for Jesus being real? Such as the other historical facts about Jesus outside the Bible.

No, I do not. An examination of egyptian mythology can explain why, however, I am not saying that a person named Jesus did not exist, but in the context of the bible it is unlikely that he would have been significant enough at the time to warrent much writing or documentation. Either way, it does not support the fact that Jesus was the son of a god.

The outside references you mention may have been added after the fact...as in, after massive text burnings - to give validity to christianity. In fact this is actually quite probable. There is evidence that the person referred to in the bible was not called Jesus but all of your supporting evidence does use this name. So either the gospels are wrong, the supporting evidence is wrong or there was a third person involved.

Ultimately it reaches a point of being ridiculous. People arguing and killing each other over "who has the best imaginary friend" (not sure who to credit with that quote).

I am sorry, but we have seen your statements and personal accounts before and you have brought nothing new to the table.


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jce wrote:

jce wrote:

Yeah, that would be helpful. Look, as I stated earlier, I was a christian - attended parochial schools and everything. I have examined all of it and arrived at a different conclusion from you. I arrived at this conclusion because:

There is no evidence of god - any god.

The bible is a rip-off of legends and earlier mythology.

I do not need the threat of hell to behave myself.

You can be the queen of the animal kingdom that doesn't change anything. Just because, you grew up as a Christian doesn't make your words more meaningful.

Thats what faith is. Please get that through your head.

Bible is a rip-off, i think not.

 

jce wrote:

As I said, there are also historians that do not accept these things.

And they are the minority. There will always be someone who will not agree, my friend.

 

 

jce wrote:

No, I do not. An examination of egyptian mythology can explain why, however, I am not saying that a person named Jesus did not exist, but in the context of the bible it is unlikely that he would have been significant enough at the time to warrent much writing or documentation. Either way, it does not support the fact that Jesus was the son of a god.

The outside references you mention may have been added after the fact...as in, after massive text burnings - to give validity to christianity. In fact this is actually quite probable. There is evidence that the person referred to in the bible was not called Jesus but all of your supporting evidence does use this name. So either the gospels are wrong, the supporting evidence is wrong or there was a third person involved.

Ultimately it reaches a point of being ridiculous. People arguing and killing each other over "who has the best imaginary friend" (not sure who to credit with that quote).

I am sorry, but we have seen your statements and personal accounts before and you have brought nothing new to the table.

 

The Bible age (New Testament) is between 10-90 years AD.

You know what. Watch these videos instead, better explination.

http://www.leestrobel.com/Christ.ht

 

Just a suggestion, but if your going to have a conversation. Be more respectful to the other persons belief. Control your emotions or that person won't bother. That goes for all of you.


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Maragon wrote: Then how

Maragon wrote:

Then how can you justify your belief?

I just tell the person about my belief and to be open to it.

Christians plant the seed, it's up to them and God after that. 


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P3RFECT wrote: Maragon

P3RFECT wrote:
Maragon wrote:

Then how can you justify your belief?

I just tell the person about my belief and to be open to it.

Christians plant the seed, it's up to them and God after that.

 

You dodged the question.

I asked why you would believe in a god if you cannot justify your beliefs with empirical evidence. 


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moonhawk wrote: Asking

moonhawk wrote:
Asking someone a question about their god then telling them they can't use their holy book to answer is like asking you to explain evolution without referencing Darwin or his theory It would be irrational to ask someone about the Windows operating system but tell them they can't use Microsoft manuals to get their answer. Where else does one get the 'definitive answer' to a question about a god unless one goes to that gods holy writings. Let's be rational.
Okay, let's. Refering to Darwin to explain evolution is logical because Darwin based his book on careful research and observable evidence. Using the Microsoft Manual to explain Windows is perfectly correct because it is written by the people who wrote the Windows program. They know what they did and how it works.

 

moonhawk wrote:
Speaking of which, what IS rational. The way I understand it, something is rational when it makes sense, or it fits, or "we can wrap our heads around it." In math you have rational numbers like 1,2,3, etc. and you have irrational numbers like pi, the square root of 2, and anything divided by zero. What is the difference? The irrational ones we haven't figured out completely, the rational ones we have. We know what to do with 2 and 6 million, we can add them, subtract them, and do a multitude of things with them. The irrational ones may not be completely understood, but we can sometimes use them to answer questions we have, like what is the area of a circle with a diameter of 10 units?
There you go again off the deep end. By your definition, people who observe the sun appearing to rise in the east and set in the west, are perfectly rational to assume that 1) the earth is flat, because they haven't yet noticed a curvature, and 2) the sun goes around the earth (which, coincidentally, biblical scholars killed people for denying for centuries). It can be demonstrated that 2+2=4, but if your god insisted that it equaled 5 as a matter of faith, you woold still be irrational to accept 5 as the an swer.

moonhawk wrote:
It seems to me most folks here at coming at this religion thing irrationally. Belief in a god is by definiton irrational. Why? Because to believe in a god one must try to "wrap your head around" something you can't understand completly. As humans we have a difficult time with things we can't/don't understand. We MUST quantify, catagorize, compare and contrast, and rationalize. When we rationalize something we are trying to make it fit our way of thinking. How in the world could a human possibly rationalize the existance of a living, breathing, INFINITE god?!? We go bonkers just trying to contemplate the infiniteness of INFINITE. Our mind will ALWAYS put some kind of border or quantity on it.
Actually, it's a lot easier to rationalize things for which there is evidence. If you take the Old and New Testamentsd as evidence for anything you will always come up short, because they have been demonstrated over time to be riddled with error. Christians still insist they must be accepted because they were written (or at least inspired by) the creator of the universe. But it doesn't take infinite understanding to know that when a book says a god created a plant which lived, and later created the sun which is necessary for the life of the plant, something in the book is out of whack.

moonhawk wrote:
Now for the questions:

1. How do we know we worship the 'right' god since there are somany religions? First, 'religions' are simply a way to try to rationalize God. Because religions are of human origin, (italics and underscoring mine --Largo)they are each and every one flawed to one degree or another.

The bible also is of human origin. You can say it was inspired until you turn blue, but I'd say Tolkien was more inspired than the writers of the bible, and nobody thinks he wrote an eternal truth that people should die and kill for.

moonhawk wrote:
Second, which god is real or right? That is for each person to answer for themselves. I can't tell you Judiasm is the right way for you, or Islam is the right way for someone else. All I can say is the God of the Bible is 'right' for me. It is after all an individual choice. Which god do you believe is right? Or is your answer "none of the above?" Then that is right for you at this time. Can the 'right' one change? Yes, mine has, and from what I've read yours has also.
The change for most of us was from believing in one or another (almost never all) of those gods and bibles, most of us have come to the conclusion that they all are wrong.

moonhawk wrote:
3.Why are believers obsessed with making new believers? Why do you obsess about anything you believe in? Presumably one enjoys what one is doing (otherwise why the hell do it?), and don't we all tell others about what WE enjoy? When you got that new car, did you hide it in the garage and never take it out? NO! You drove that puppy everywhere and told everyone about it.

So if a believer has found something he deems to be more valuable than gold, silver, or even life itself, how could he not tell others and want them to partake also. The next time YOUR team wins a big game, let's see you not bragging...WE WON! Wait a minute...WE?!? You weren't there, yet you're bragging, aren't you. Same thing with a believer; they "weren't there, didn't do that" yet they brag as well.

Well, you've spoken well for believers, but you left out something. Over history, believers have tortured and murdered millions of people who may have been believers, too, because they held some idea that was heretical. I submit that, given the power that the church had in those days, you, too would kill unbelievers. Why not? Why should you not kill and torture people your book says your god will torture forever? This is why we insist on shining light wherever we find the darkness of superstition. There are people in America who would turn this country into a theocracy. Which brand of theocracy is anybody's guess. But if the Catholics get control, look for the auto da fey to be brought back. If Baptists, look for a lot of Catholics being slaughtered. And all atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Hindus, Budhists, Taoists, Wycans, Pagans, etc. for hundreds if not thousands of religious groupings. You think not? Again, refer to history. The only safe world is one without faith, a secular humanist world in which god, any god, is relegated to the same shelf as the Brothers Grimm. That's where he belongs.


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P3RFECT wrote: [You can be

P3RFECT wrote:
[You can be the queen of the animal kingdom that doesn't change anything. Just because, you grew up as a Christian doesn't make your words more meaningful.

Thats what faith is. Please get that through your head.

Bible is a rip-off, i think not.

Queen of the animal kingdom - LOL! This is pretty funny since you expect your personal experiences to be meaningful to us and got offended when they were not.

I am aware of the definition of faith and since I do not apply "faith" to any other part of my life I am not going to use it to believe in something I do not need.

 

P3RFECT wrote:
And they are the minority. There will always be someone who will not agree, my friend.

Minority or not, they exist.


P3RFECT wrote:
The Bible age (New Testament) is between 10-90 years AD.

You know what. Watch these videos instead, better explination.

http://www.leestrobel.com/Christ.ht

Your link did not work.

P3RFECT wrote:
Just a suggestion, but if your going to have a conversation. Be more respectful to the other persons belief. Control your emotions or that person won't bother. That goes for all of you.

No. You have no right to come here and tell anyone how to behave or that we should respect you. You have failed to provide answers and your beliefs do not deserve respect. They are utterly ridiculous.  Respect is earned; not given.  (Nice appeal to emotion, though!)


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Maragon wrote: You dodged

Maragon wrote:

You dodged the question.

I asked why you would believe in a god if you cannot justify your beliefs with empirical evidence.

 How many times do you guys need to ask the same question. 

 

First of all i don't need to justify my beliefs to anyone.

Second, i believe because of experience/faith/experience.

Third, some believe there are scientific evidence of God and others don't. Just felt like putting that part out there. 

 


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jce wrote:

jce wrote:

Queen of the animal kingdom - LOL! This is pretty funny since you expect your personal experiences to be meaningful to us and got offended when they were not.

I am aware of the definition of faith and since I do not apply "faith" to any other part of my life I am not going to use it to believe in something I do not need.

Sometimes you need humor.

Offended? nah.

Well, many of you ask the same question when you need to realize it requires faith.

If you want physical evidence then your in the wrong thread. Geez.

jce wrote:
Minority or not, they exist.

And the same with science too.


jce wrote:

No. You have no right to come here and tell anyone how to behave or that we should respect you. You have failed to provide answers and your beliefs do not deserve respect. They are utterly ridiculous. Respect is earned; not given. (Nice appeal to emotion, though!)

 

I'm giving you a suggestion for if you get into a live debate it will not end well.
Also respect should be applied to everyone even if they disrespect you.

Respect should not be earned, it should be given.

 

I think it works now.

http://www.leestrobel.com/Christ.htm

 

 


JCE
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P3RFECT wrote: How many

P3RFECT wrote:
How many times do you guys need to ask the same question.

 

First of all i don't need to justify my beliefs to anyone.

Second, i believe because of experience/faith/experience.

Third, some believe there are scientific evidence of God and others don't. Just felt like putting that part out there.

 

Then why are you here?  Obviously we do not have any questions you can answer so I am unclear as to your purpose in continuing this discussion.


P3RFECT
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jce wrote:

jce wrote:

Then why are you here? Obviously we do not have any questions you can answer so I am unclear as to your purpose in continuing this discussion.

So you can speak for everybody on this site? You can read all our minds and say I speak for everyone when I say you cannot answer our questions?

Like i said, you want physical evidence look somewhere else.

If you want to know about Christianity or have questions about it then I am right here. Among other things.

 


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P3RFECT wrote: Well, many

P3RFECT wrote:
Well, many of you ask the same question when you need to realize it requires faith.

If you want physical evidence then your in the wrong thread. Geez.

No, you are on the wrong website. Atheists do not accept faith as evidence.

P3RFECT wrote:
I'm giving you a suggestion for if you get into a live debate it will not end well.

I have been in a live debate and it did end well. I won. My opponent did not use faith as evidence or the bible or logical fallacies. Because of that we were able to learn something from each other but in the end he did concede the argument.

P3RFECT wrote:
Also respect should be applied to everyone even if they disrespect you.

Respect should not be earned, it should be given.

This is not how the real world operates; only fantasy land.

P3RFECT wrote:
I think it works now.

http://www.leestrobel.com/Christ.htm

Thanks! I will check it out.