A Critique of Miller-Urey and it's applications

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A Critique of Miller-Urey and it's applications

Miller Urey, while appearing to support spontaneous biogenesis, in actuality indicates the reverse. The model of the atmosphere was incorrect, the Oceanic "primordial soup" has never been shown to exist, the experiment itself was rigged for the production of organic molecules, and the published results were skewed by omitting some of the results.

 The atmosphere of ancient Earth, according to Miller-Urey, was composed of Methane, Ammonia, and Water (with traces of Hydrogen.) This atmosphere is by no means the actual ancient Earth atmosphere: there are at least two other atmospheres that are considered, but are often discluded because of much lower yield of organic molecules. The atmosphere is also thought to have been Carbon Dioxide and Water, or Carbon Dioxide and Nitrogen, both of which are far less reductive, hence were not put to the Miller-Urey experiment.

 R.C. Dowen has said:

 "Now, for the first time in 30 years, the widely accepted recipe for the primordial soup is changing from one rich in hydrogen- composed primarily of methane and ammonia- to a Hydrogen-poor atmosphere similar to today's sans (minus) the Oxygen.

 "No geological or geochemical evidence collected in the last 30 years favors a strongly reducing atmosphere....Only the success of the laboratory experiments recommends it.

 "Scientists are having to rethink some of their assumptions. Chemists liked the old reducing atmosphere, for it was conductive to evolutionary experiments.

Another flaw in the atmosphere is that all exclude oxygen gas. Often Oxygen production is only produced by photosynthesis, but this is really an oversimplification. Oxygen has been known since the 60's to be produced at high altitudes with the effect of ultraviolet light on water in a process known as photolysis. R.T. Brinkman has calculated the bare minimum amount of free oxygen in the atmosphere and has concluded that Earth has always had at least a 5% Oxygen gas atmosphere. Other scientists, who are willing to let uniformitarianism fall by the wayside, compute levels ranging anywhere from 10 to the -1 to 10 to the -15, more or less evenly distributed throughout.

 Now what does a disagreement of 14 powers of ten suggest? It suggests that these scientists haven't got a clue what they are talking about.

 All this does not consider the various "organic" chemicals that were produced by Miller-Urey that impede life. Among the most prevalent of precursor molecules of monomer synthesis is HCN. While HCN is often attributed with much chemical synthesis, such as the amine of amino acids, its mere presence would be fatal to any precursor metabolisms because of cyanide's overkill reductive powers. In short, the monomers would have to form, then all of the HCN decompose to an extremely low level (parts per trillion at least) while still retaining all of the monomers, then and only then could a primitive life form develop. 

 Finally, there is doubt as to whether or not the "primordial soup" that Miller-Urey is designed to emulate. Brooks and Shaw in Origin and Development of Living Systems

 "If there ever was a primitive soup, then we would expect to find at least somewhere on this planet either massive sediments containing enormous amounts of the various nitrogenous organic compounds, amino acids, purines, pyrimidines, and the like, or alternatively in much-metamorphosed sediments we should find vast amounts of nitrogenous cokes. In fact no such materials have been found anywhere on earth.

 

In the end, while experiments like Miller-Urey may have interesting results, they prove nothing if not linked to physical evidence from atmospheric studies or geochemistry. Primordial soup producing life is a myth that makes the Biblical Flood look docile and credible in comparison.

All references and most thoughts derived from The Mystery of Life's Origin by Charles Thaxton, Walter Bradley, and Roger Olsen.

"Truth is the cry of all, but the game of the few." George Berkeley
"Truth is always strange — stranger than fiction." Lord Byron

Fixing the world, one dumb idea at a time.


caseagainstfaith
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Sir Valiant for Truth

Sir Valiant for Truth wrote:

Wrong again. I have only learned two things in this whole discussion:

 You can lead a horse to water...

Sir Valiant for Truth wrote:
I am not a biology expert, but I know what I am talking about.

Its been demonstrated in this thread that you do not. 


todangst
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Sir Valiant for Truth

Sir Valiant for Truth wrote:

**SIGH**

Quote:
SVT, on the other hand, learns about the expert analysis for the first time during these exchanges.

Wrong again. I have only learned two things in this whole discussion

Actually, you've not proven me wrong anywhere yet. I'm fully prepared to believe you haven't learned anything ABOUT the arguments given to you in this thread.

My point was that you merely learned, for the first time, of their existence in this thread. And that's not a good sign.

Quote:

Caseagainstfaith has admitted that he isn't an organic chemist.

Which is why it's a good thing that he relies on experts in the field for the basis of his arguments. He looked at both sides. Something you might want to consider.

Quote:

On a similar note, I have not told you my own cridentials,

'Credentials.' Sorry, cheap shot, I know. But I just found it funny that you'd misspell credentials while trying to brag about your credentials.

Quote:

and, while I have no PhD or Doctorite [sic] in organic chemistry

or spelling...

Quote:

either, my education isn't something to be sneezed at either.

ACHOOOO! I sneeze upon your education!

Quote:

As that it is clear that many atheists here assume that theist = ignorant,

No, actually, the formula is: ignorant behavior, ignorant person.

And ignorance is OK... as long as you concede it, and do something about it.

Quote:

I feel required to inform them that such is not the case.

If you put forward a good argument, you'd not feel this way... we'd already be impressed...

Quote:

I am a theist, but I have taken AP Biology....

Again, anyone who feels the need to go on about their education clearly realizes that they haven't demonstrated that they are educated....

It's the demonstrating that matters. Anyone can have a degree. Having a degree doesn't mean you're smart, it only means you should be...

 

"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'


todangst
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caseagainstfaith

caseagainstfaith wrote:
Sir Valiant for Truth wrote:

Wrong again. I have only learned two things in this whole discussion:

You can lead a horse to water...

Yep. 

"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'


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JeremiahSmith wrote: I

JeremiahSmith wrote:

I mean, yeah, I'm a dick, but I'd rather be a dick than an idiot.

(Mods: The other forum is the one where I have to be nice, right?)

Yup.  This is the Atheist vs Theist forum and it's gloves off here.

You must be nice over on the Kill 'Em With Kindness forum. 

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todangst wrote: It's the

todangst wrote:
It's the demonstrating that matters. Anyone can have a degree. Having a degree doesn't mean you're smart, it only means you should be...

A professor of mine was talking about qualifications in class once. She asked "What do you call the guy who graduated last in his class from med school?"

"'Doctor.'"

Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.


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Ah man! Some of the 1 liners

Ah man! Some of the 1 liners are classic. I mighta sprung another hernia. Bravo! ...


caseagainstfaith
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Susan wrote: You must be

Susan wrote:

You must be nice over on the Kill 'Em With Kindness forum.

 Fuck that! 


triften
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Sir Valiant for Truth

Sir Valiant for Truth wrote:

1. There are some mineral deposits that, taking their dating into account and assuming direct contact with the atmosphere durring synthesis, indicate Earth once had a low or nonexistant Oxygen.

This is obviously flimsy when the underlying assumptions are shown. I both disagree with the dating system, and have pointed out that almost all mineral synthesis occurs away from the atmosphere.

One of the statements was that minerals which happily oxidize in the presence of oxygen (after formation) have been found unoxidized, showing surface wear (as water and wind might provide), and dating to way back at that time of the Earth.

You disagree with the dating system? I think you'll need better evidence than that.

 

Sir Valiant for Truth wrote:

2. That there are some recorded bacteria that use D amino acids. This was a bit of a surprise, but merely corrected and strengthened my own argument rather than refuting it.

Caseagainstfaith has admitted that he isn't an organic chemist. I assumed as such because, usually, cridentials are put up front along with the name and as that this is about Miller-Urey, an organic chemist would have said so early on.

On a similar note, I have not told you my own cridentials, and, while I have no PhD or Doctorite in organic chemistry either, my education isn't something to be sneezed at either.

As that it is clear that many atheists here assume that theist = ignorant, I feel required to inform them that such is not the case.

I am a theist, but I have taken AP Biology (and got a 3 on the AP exam,) which had one unit devoted to microbiology and another solely to evolution, but all in all, another unit at least was on evolution between the cracks in the book. I am not a biology expert, but I know what I am talking about.

Perhaps you should talk to deludedgod, who has college-level education in the field of organic chemistry and what-not.

Also, aren't the AP exams scored out of 5? 

-Triften 


Sir Valiant for...
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Just to reiterate to remind

Just to reiterate to remind everyone here including myself, most of these arguments are not my own, but rather Dr. Charles Thaxton's, PhD in Chemistry.

"Truth is the cry of all, but the game of the few." George Berkeley
"Truth is always strange — stranger than fiction." Lord Byron

Fixing the world, one dumb idea at a time.


caseagainstfaith
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Sir Valiant for Truth

Sir Valiant for Truth wrote:

Just to reiterate to remind everyone here including myself, most of these arguments are not my own, but rather Dr. Charles Thaxton's, PhD in Chemistry.

Just to remind everyone, but paricularly SVT:

1.  Dr. Thaxton's arguments have been shown to be faulty.

2.  Dr. Thaxton's arguments are a minority opinion in his field.  Which in and of itself doesn't make them wrong, but make them worthy of further investigation rather than blind acceptance.

 3.  Dr. Thaxton's book is 15-25 years old, depending on whether the '92 paperback edition was a revised edition or not.  I think not, meaning it is more like 25 years old.

4.  SVT has been using ONE source, of 25 years old, while we have used many sources much newer. 


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JeremiahSmith

JeremiahSmith wrote:
todangst wrote:
It's the demonstrating that matters. Anyone can have a degree. Having a degree doesn't mean you're smart, it only means you should be...

A professor of mine was talking about qualifications in class once. She asked "What do you call the guy who graduated last in his class from med school?"

"'Doctor.'"

I have updated this anecdote for greater relevance to the thread.

"What do you call the guy who graduated last in his chemistry class?"

"Dr. Charles Thaxton." 

Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.


caseagainstfaith
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JeremiahSmith wrote: I

JeremiahSmith wrote:

I have updated this anecdote for greater relevance to the thread.

"What do you call the guy who graduated last in his chemistry class?"

"Dr. Charles Thaxton."

Laughing

 


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Oh No! Not the dreaded

Oh No! Not the dreaded Triple Dog dare!!!


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zen wrote:Oh No! Not the

zen wrote:

Oh No! Not the dreaded Triple Dog dare!!!

Must have worked - it scared SVT off