Proof that Jesus Christ never existed!!! Christians read!

Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7523
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
Proof that Jesus Christ never existed!!! Christians read!

It has just been revealed to me that Jesus Christ never existed. I can't imagine living without this knowledge now that I have it. I feel so complete, and it feels so good to finally know the truth that Jesus Christ in fact NEVER existed.

I hope you too are able to find this truth.

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


butterbattle
ModeratorSuperfan
butterbattle's picture
Posts: 3716
Joined: 2008-09-12
User is offlineOffline
Tiff wrote:If I were to

Tiff wrote:
If I were to prove to you that the Christian God is alive and the one and only true God, would you then believe?...If i had tangible, solid proof?

Yes. It doesn't even need to be "proof," per se. Just present an actual coherent God definition and enough evidence to make him at least plausible. 

Edit: To be honest, I want to compliment you for actually coming back and trying to have a real discussion with us, so that we can try to understand each other. Most theists that post the kind of argument you've posted would run away after they see the replies. On the other hand, the only replies you've received are from me and FreeHugMachine, and free hugs is very nice to everyone. I mean, jeez, his username is FreeHugMachine.

Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare


ZACHAQRY BLIE (not verified)
Posts: 4294964979
Joined: 1969-12-31
User is offlineOffline
JESUS LIVES

FIRST OF ALL YOU ARE STUPID BY SAYINGTHAT THERE ARE KNOW FIRST HAND WRITTIN ACCOUNS OF JESUS THERE ARE THOUSANDS NOT TO MENTION THATS WHAT THE GOSPLE IS SECOUND OF ALL THERE WHERE RCORDS BACK THEN AND THE ROMAN RECORDS OFFICIALY PROVE ( THEY WEAR SIMILAR TO A MORDEREN DAY BIRTH CERTIFICATE) THAT JESUS WAS ON THIS EARTH AT ONE POINT OR OTHER YOU ARETRUELLY RETARDED AND I INVITE YOU TO EMAIL ME BACK AT ZBUDDY2002@YAHOO.COM YOU IDIOT AND DISCGRACE TO OUR ND YOUR WETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT GOD FURTHER MORE I HAVE TO TELL YOU THT YOU SIR NEED PRAYER LOST AND LONLY PAGAN THAT SHALL NEVER EVER HAVE SALVATION WITHOUT PRAYER OH AND YES PROUDLY IMMA CATHOLIC AND DICERNING ON BECOMING A PRIEST AND U WILL SEE THE TRUE GOD GOD THE FATHER GOD THE SON AND GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT


sevins
Theist
Posts: 8
Joined: 2009-08-07
User is offlineOffline
KingDavid8 wins useless argument with fait based athiests!

Sorry guys, but KingDavid8 basically SQUASHED and uterly destroyed the other debating side on this forum.

Every single comment on the "jesus does not exist" side basically amounted to "we think the bible is about as valid as paul bunyan".

David responded back to every ridiculous comment with a calm explanation of facts and evidence.  What is more, he did so with well founded logical argumentation, the pillars on which scientific fact is based.

If this is the future of athiesm you are all horribly doomed.  Try harder!  Why can't ONE SINGLE PERSON on an entire site dedicated to athiests take down this guy with a calm level headed approach?  Or perhaps this is an impossible task because essentially- almost every scholar (regardless of belief) admits the actual existence of a man named jesus christ.  And any self-respcting and educated athiest debater wouldn't touch this topic.

So instead of academic style science geeks (said with every bit of respect btw) who can form well thought out arguments, this entire thread is populated with a bunch of ass-pating athiests giving hi-fives over insulting believers in jesus with some sort of "taste of their own medicine" type of a diatribe.

What I mean is, it's probably alot more hip to be an ahtiest these days.  Try telling your hipster friends that you actually believe in God, goof f'n luck with that buddy.  So instead lets become athiests based on faith, and forget how to argue scientifically.  If you become an athiest in an attempt to fit in... so that people don't look at you weird at an Interpol concert, you are obvioussly not going to have a leg to stand on in a well conducted argument.  And when someone comes along who has a shred of this ability, you will lose.

It's absolutely and 100% hillarious that it's a chrisitan with faith (kingdavid8) who is stomping athiesm (who's biggest friend is stereotypically science and logic) based on sound, "logical" debating skills.  Isn't this site supposed to be about making you NOT believe in God?  (correct me if I am wrong)  Well KingDavid8 just gave a bunch of reasons TO believe in him (at least reasons to believe in Jesus, which to some is enough to continue their belief)...

 

 

 


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10687
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
ZACHAQRY BLIE: All caps?

ZACHAQRY BLIE:
All caps? check. Unfounded assumptions? check. Insults? check. No account made? check.
Troll detected, likelyhood of return: <1%. Policy of ignore instituted.

sevins:
Props for actually trying, and grammar/spelling. Fail for reading comprehension and logic. Final grade: 26%. I don't bother with anyone who can't at least achieve 50%, unless I feel like trolling a troll. But hey, at least you got a grade. Mr. all caps gets a total of zero.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


sevins
Theist
Posts: 8
Joined: 2009-08-07
User is offlineOffline
And props to you sir! 

And props to you sir! 

Since we are now grading each other, I've created a peer review for you:

I give you a 30% on your own post, for equally esoteric and non-sensiocal reasons; which are as follows:

Props for mentioning Canada in your sig, because Canada is neat.  Fail for self-instituting a policy of ignoring "zachary blie" (mr all caps) and then giving him attention by writing a few sentences to him -20%.

-50% for not having any sort of paintings or wall decorations in your profile picrture.  You can increase this grade with a resubmit, should you choose to do so.

Final grade 30/100.  You have surpased me, which stands to reason since you wasted much less time on one of these time sucking internet argument forums, so you deserve it... and also because Canada has lumberjacks and good beer.

 


Tapey
atheist
Tapey's picture
Posts: 1474
Joined: 2009-01-23
User is offlineOffline
I was five and he was six We

I was five and he was six
We rode on horses made of sticks
He wore black and I wore white
He would always win the fight

Bang bang, he shot me down
Bang bang, I hit the ground
Bang bang, that awful sound
Bang bang, my baby shot me down.

Seasons came and changed the time
When I grew up, I called him mine
He would always laugh and say
"Remember when we used to play?"

Bang bang, I shot you down
Bang bang, you hit the ground
Bang bang, that awful sound
Bang bang, I used to shoot you down.

Music played, and people sang
Just for me, the church bells rang.

Now he's gone, I don't know why
And till this day, sometimes I cry
He didn't even say goodbye
He didn't take the time to lie.

Bang bang, he shot me down
Bang bang, I hit the ground
Bang bang, that awful sound
Bang bang, my baby shot me down...

 

\\ end sarcasim

Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10687
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
You haven't earned the right

You haven't earned the right to give out grades. The attempt reduces your score to 0. Poor bastard.
Edit: It's even worse than that. Your response suggests that your reading comprehension is SO bad that you can't distinguish logical progression and standard sentence structure. I didn't institue the policy then write to him, I made observations and THEN instituted a policy of ignoring him. This further reduces your score into the negative. As in, below zero (since you have such a problem with reading).

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


sevins
Theist
Posts: 8
Joined: 2009-08-07
User is offlineOffline
This was an attempt at

This was an attempt at humor.  I did not realize that I have not earned the right to attempt humor.

My only hope is that I, like those who have gone before me- such as yourself, can one day waste enough time on a  web forum to earn the right to create fake grades.  How many posts do I need to make anyway?  If I make enough posts and I hand out enough "grades", do I get some kind of a certificate?  Can I take this with me to teach at a shitty mall college?  I sure hope so!  I'm onto something, thank you proud canadian... for showing me the way.

 

(ok the ball is back in your court, lets see if we can turn this into an all out flame war!  I have my list of insults from the glory days of phpbb forums.  This will be a glorious trip down memory lane.  Please, everyone- place bets on who calls who a nazi first.)


Vastet
atheistBloggerHigh Level ModeratorSuperfan
Vastet's picture
Posts: 10687
Joined: 2006-12-25
User is offlineOffline
Stick around for awhile,

Stick around for awhile, providing you aren't a troll in the process, and one day the right will be granted you by me. Posts like this help, believe it or not. Far more amusing than the last attempt, which was fundamentally flawed and unfunny.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


Anonymous
Posts: 4294964979
Joined: 1969-12-31
User is offlineOffline
Jesus

 

I don't know where you can say that there was no Jesus! There was a Jesus......Were you there......no you wouldn't. So, you have NO idea. But you can think anyway that you want to think. But I know for sure that there was a Jesus. Let me ask you something......How do you know that there's air, if you can't see it? How do you know it's oxygen, if you can't see it? I just pray that you will see the light, before you pass away.


marshalltenbears
marshalltenbears's picture
Posts: 223
Joined: 2009-02-19
User is offlineOffline
Yes, actually. That our

Yes, actually. That our universe is in such a state or order that life is not only possible, but apparently inevitable - and that life can exist and thrive for billions of years without being swallowed up by the chaos we would expect in a universe that was created by random means, suggests (though by no means proves) that whatever force created the universe was purposeful. Had random, unguided forces created the universe, I find it very unlikely (though not impossible) that we'd be here for as long as we have been. David

 

Wow, have you ever heard of the god of the gaps theory? You just displayed a perfect example of it. What exactly do you consider perfect about us? We breath and eat through the same hole. Can you imagine how many people choke to death every year. Don't you think your god would have thought that one out a little more? And we pretty much live in the boondocks of the universe, seems like a whole lot to create for nothing. But assuming there was a creator, why would it have to be a god? And more specifically the modern day american hill billy version of the christian god? Why couldn't it have been Zeus or Allah? 

"Take all the heads of the people
and hang them up before the Lord
against the sun.” -- Numbers 25:4


marshalltenbears
marshalltenbears's picture
Posts: 223
Joined: 2009-02-19
User is offlineOffline
 oh, I just looked at the

 oh, I just looked at the dates of this forum. I will stop responding now.


paige of the book of Hill (not verified)
Posts: 4294964979
Joined: 1969-12-31
User is offlineOffline
wow

this is all by chance, luck of the draw, no beginning, no end

 

if at by any chance we came too be just outta thin well atsmosphere, then why is there atsmosphere or stars

to what do we owe the pleasure of this life or to whom does this even belong

r u  kinda a perfect mistake,i think god is overrated we put some logical reasoning to the name like as if

god were man or the storie of jesus was a depiction of how we should live or lives to be kind loving shareing

we waste time argueing the same points and making the same claims jesus metioned by other religous beleifs

all of which do not condredict eachother think of it as water made dirty by human influence but the main thing is there

to honour eachothers veiws for if 2 argue weather either is right then both are wrong because u never get anywhere

there r much more heavier topics such as helping  homeless starving people giving to the poor ridding the world of hate and violence

but rather millions bicker like 2 siblings showing the immaturity of our generation and generations to come until we

relize that our veiws thoughts our revalations and VAIN IMMAGINES of life or what it means to be here r not even reality the reality

is that we r stupid to kill ourselves to act beastlike rather then use the intellect that god provideds us to help ourselves and our neibour

 

we watch millions kill themselves we watch people freeze in the street we have no goals in life except small scale bullshit that at most time

make shit worse i mean how much longer before people relize that , that same old argument will never die it will be here long after were gone but the message of the

christians muslims jewish buddist hindues bahais zorastrians and sabeans is that were all equal and we all have the right to think whatever we choose

and weather or not jesus did exsits the  fact remans that for everything there come a creator some engineer who crated the perfect settig for u and i and

we need to begin to understand how to start respecting our surrounding before there is no more human race but as ye that bear no fruit trhe son of man shall

cut ye off like the green grass and ye shall wither to dust excepting christ is onething beleiveing in him and doing as he says to do is another

but if by chance we ever do as he says the world fer the first time ever since the beginning when adam was created we will see the whole world restored to the nature it

came and peace shall be upon us for the good and rightous who do not pitch a stick in front of the blind but nah rather help them shall inherit the earth ...

 


Jacquie (not verified)
Posts: 4294964979
Joined: 1969-12-31
User is offlineOffline
irrevocable TRUTH

For someone who works so hard to be rational you are really ignorant, it takes more faith to believe Christ didn't exist than to believe he does!!!  And on judgement day you won't be able to point your rational, non- God loving finger at me...remember this name Jacqueline McMillen...I will see you there...for your own sake do some more research...


WriterWriter (not verified)
Posts: 4294964979
Joined: 1969-12-31
User is offlineOffline
Christ never existed.

Dear David. WHICH people knew Christ and wrote about him???

Mathew, Mark, Luke and John were all written at least 60 years after this mythical creature was alleged to have lived and died. There is NOT one single bible-writer who was alive at the time they allege this christ person was. Get your facts straight.

 

http://www.evilbible.com/Top_Ten_List.htm


WriterWriter (not verified)
Posts: 4294964979
Joined: 1969-12-31
User is offlineOffline

WriterWriter (not verified)
Posts: 4294964979
Joined: 1969-12-31
User is offlineOffline
NEITHER John nor Matthew

NEITHER John nor Matthew were alive at the time christ was alleged to have been on the planet. The book of Matthew was written 60 years LATER and the book of John, 30 years later than that. 

http://www.evilbible.com/Top_Ten_List.htm


JesusNEVERexisted
Superfan
JesusNEVERexisted's picture
Posts: 693
Joined: 2010-01-03
User is offlineOffline
JesusSaves wrote:Sapient

JesusSaves wrote:
Sapient wrote:
That's impossible. Who knew him and wrote about him? I already knew before anything was revealed to me that first hand accounts of Jesus don't exist. In addition it was revealed to me that he didn't exist. You don't have to believe me, I really don't care, just know you are definetly wasting your life in believing in him, because I know that he didn't exist for a fact.
how do you know that for a FACT? were you there during the time of Jesus Lifetime?

You can't even prove Jesus ever HAD a lifetime!! ALL the major concepts of the bible are simply copied from gods that came earlier.  He wasn't the ONLY god that was ressurected, had virgin birth,, and blood sacrifice!! 

Osiris. Dionysis, Mithras. and Horus all had those aspects too and they were BEFORE the time of Jeebus!! So they are all real too, right? LOL!

Remember the BURDEN OF PROOF is on those who are making the CLAIM that a certain process of thing exists.  It's up to BILLIONS of theists in the world to meet that burden and they never have and never will!!

 

 

Click here to find out why Christianity is the biggest fairy tale ever created!! www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm www.JesusNEVERexisted.com


smartypants
Superfan
smartypants's picture
Posts: 598
Joined: 2009-03-20
User is offlineOffline
KingDavid8 wrote:And also,

KingDavid8 wrote:
And also, evidence for Jesus' resurrection indirectly counts as evidence for God, since if no God exists, Jesus' resurrection would have been impossible.


liberatedatheist
atheistScience Freak
liberatedatheist's picture
Posts: 137
Joined: 2009-12-08
User is offlineOffline
Hitchens makes a decent

Hitchens makes a decent argument that makes it seem possible that Jesus may have existed. It goes like this: The fabrications made in the bible suggest by their existence that some sort of jesus figure did exist. If we look at the nativity scene, the bible makes up the story of a census (which there is little evidence for historically) in which everyone had to return to their place of birth (which doesn't make sense, why require people to travel hundreds of miles for a census?). This fabrication was made because the messiah, according to scripture, would be born in bethlehem. If jesus had never really existed their is no reason to make this all up, they could have just said that he was born in bethlehem. This suggests that their was some guy from nazareth who at least gained a little notoriety. He states this argument at around 3:00 min in this video.

I Am My God

The absence of evidence IS evidence of absence


Atheistextremist
atheistSilver Member
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5102
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
1977 years ago in this thread

 

The theist KingDavid8 claimed there were 24,000 ancient copies of the New Testament written in close proximity to the time of Jesus - we'd assume this must be in the first 200 years. Now 24,000, aside from being a round number, is a fucking lot.

Given KingDavid8 seems to have moved on with his well ordered-sounding life, I'm wondering if anyone else here with good bible knowledge, John Paul the Skeptic for instance, has a feel for how many early NTs there are.

I'm also interested in how theists can describe NT as eyewitness. There are 2 ways eyewitness can be handled and the ancient way was by making shit up as if you were there when you weren't. Homer did it with his slim swift ships and wine dark sea

and so did Thucydides who either floated above the battle of Salamis in a hot air balloon or was talking out of his arse.

Maybe it's just my linear brain structure at work, but personally I don't care how many copies of ancient books there are that talk about things that are impossible in the known world. Bullshit, repeated thousands of time, is after all, just crap.

This said, my understanding of the early NT is that there are few complete copies and KD8's grand sounding claims of bibles enough to supply a Hillsong convention are bloody annoying.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


JesusNEVERexisted
Superfan
JesusNEVERexisted's picture
Posts: 693
Joined: 2010-01-03
User is offlineOffline
liberatedatheist

liberatedatheist wrote:

Hitchens makes a decent argument that makes it seem possible that Jesus may have existed. It goes like this: The fabrications made in the bible suggest by their existence that some sort of jesus figure did exist. If we look at the nativity scene, the bible makes up the story of a census (which there is little evidence for historically) in which everyone had to return to their place of birth (which doesn't make sense, why require people to travel hundreds of miles for a census?). This fabrication was made because the messiah, according to scripture, would be born in bethlehem. If jesus had never really existed their is no reason to make this all up, they could have just said that he was born in bethlehem. This suggests that their was some guy from nazareth who at least gained a little notoriety. He states this argument at around 3:00 min in this video.

But that's not true because ALL writings about Jesus come many DECADES after his ALLEGED existence.  So they could've simply fabricated whatever they wanted to about him existing DECADES earlier without him having existed AT ALL!!

It's not like they had video/audio/pictures to dig up from some guy who existed decades earlier so YES he was mythical and if it's not 100% clear it's 99.999999999% clear that he is purely IMAGINARY!!!

Click here to find out why Christianity is the biggest fairy tale ever created!! www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm www.JesusNEVERexisted.com


JesusNEVERexisted
Superfan
JesusNEVERexisted's picture
Posts: 693
Joined: 2010-01-03
User is offlineOffline
WriterWriter wrote:Dear

WriterWriter wrote:

Dear David. WHICH people knew Christ and wrote about him???

Mathew, Mark, Luke and John were all written at least 60 years after this mythical creature was alleged to have lived and died. There is NOT one single bible-writer who was alive at the time they allege this christ person was. Get your facts straight.

 

http://www.evilbible.com/Top_Ten_List.htm

GREAT POINT!! The Christnuts continue to live their fantasy and believe in an imaginary being!

Click here to find out why Christianity is the biggest fairy tale ever created!! www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm www.JesusNEVERexisted.com


robj101
atheist
robj101's picture
Posts: 2481
Joined: 2010-02-20
User is offlineOffline
They should have worshipped

They should have worshipped http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Korresh while they had the chance.

I also wonder if the big preachers, christian writers and other proponents of religion, realize that sometime in the future, they will be noted as small people that attempted to continue the biggest farce in the history of mankind.

Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin


Jesusfreakalwayz (not verified)
Posts: 4294964979
Joined: 1969-12-31
User is offlineOffline
I am really enjoying that

I am really enjoying that fact of how everything has "been revealed " to u ..loL!.. y dont u just b honest within urself , its easier 4 u 2 worship an element than 2 accept and acknowledge that God loved u so much that he gave his only begotten son to die 4 u .. i understand its alot 2 take in ... and as far as the universe was water the 1 that placed  Earth & only Earth in the perfect position in the whole entire universe????... last time  i checked no ...apparently it was caused by what is reffered 2 as the"big bang" so if we believe as u do shouldnt u b worshipping a rock???...


Jesusfreak4theathiest! (not verified)
Posts: 4294964979
Joined: 1969-12-31
User is offlineOffline
Jesus

I definetly agree with u.. David did awesome answering and responding 2 all the questions ... I think its far more easier 4 u athiests 2 worship water  than  2 believe that God loves u so much that he sent his only begotten son 2 die 4 u ... i dont c what the harm is in believing in God anyway even if i had not believed in God the Bible teaches wonderful ways 2  live our lives and could only benifit us if we actually followed God's word ...guess sum ppl r just afraid 2 b truly happy ....


PimpingWolfwood
atheist
PimpingWolfwood's picture
Posts: 45
Joined: 2010-08-24
User is offlineOffline
Jesusfreak4theathiest!

Jesusfreak4theathiest! wrote:

I definetly agree with u.. David did awesome answering and responding 2 all the questions ... I think its far more easier 4 u athiests 2 worship water  than  2 believe that God loves u so much that he sent his only begotten son 2 die 4 u ... i dont c what the harm is in believing in God anyway even if i had not believed in God the Bible teaches wonderful ways 2  live our lives and could only benifit us if we actually followed God's word ...guess sum ppl r just afraid 2 b truly happy ....

You're totally right! It is far easier to believe that water, something that we can see daily giving us life and energy, is worthy of worship rather than Jesus, the likelihood of whose existence was contentious at best.

And when you say that you don't see the harm in believing in God, which God are you talking about? I hear Shiva's pretty cool. I mean, if we're going to arbitrarily pick and choose our God, we might as well shop around, right? I'm not sure I'd choose Jesus, though. I know you say following his word could only benefit us, but the gays and abortion doctors and people accused of being witches and all the others killed in the name of your God would probably disagree.

 

But you're right! It couldn't hurt to believe in a God... Maybe I'll go with Zeus...

Bridge breeding proves evolution false.


angelobrazil
Theist
Posts: 275
Joined: 2007-10-02
User is offlineOffline
   http://elshamah.heavenf

 

 

http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/bible-christianity-f6/historicity-of-jesus-t189.htm

Part I: Evidence of the existance of Jesus Christ by Simon Greenleaf, the Royal Professor of Law at Harvard University. Dr. Greenleaf, the Royal Professor of Law at Harvard University, was one of the greatest legal minds that ever lived. He wrote the famous legal volume entitled, A Treatise on the Law of Evidence, considered by many the greatest legal volume ever written. Dr. Simon Greenleaf believed the Resurrection of Jesus Christ was a hoax. And he determined, once and for all, to expose the "myth" of the Resurrection. After thoroughly examining the evidence for the resurrection — Dr. Greenleaf came to the exact opposite conclusion! He wrote a book entitled, An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice. In which he emphatically stated:
"it was IMPOSSIBLE that the apostles could have persisted in affirming the truths they had narrated, had not JESUS CHRIST ACTUALLY RISEN FROM THE DEAD, . . ."
(Simon Greenleaf, An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice, p.29).

Some of the examples of secular and Jewish historical writings (some quite anti-Christian in tone) known for years by scholars. Below is the Josephus excerpt about Jesus from the much older, Arab-Christian source. "At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct
was good, and was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the
Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned
him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples
did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared
to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive,
accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets
have recounted wonders." One of the most important historical sources on early Judaism that is
still in existence today comes from the writings of Flavius Josephus.
Josephus was born around A.D. 37 (slightly after Jesus' death), and died
around 100 A.D. He was the son of a Judaean priest and was educated as a
Pharisee.

When the revolt of 66 A.D. first broke out, Josephus was the commander-in-chief of the Northern Jewish resistance against the Romans. After being captured
by the Romans, he determined that any further resistance was hopeless, and
from that point on, sided with the Romans. In 70 A.D. after serving as the
interpreter to Titus during the final siege on Jerusalem, he moved back
to Rome. There, under the patronage of successive Roman Emperors, he
wrote two large histories on the Jewish people--THE JEWISH WARS and THE
ANTIQUITIES OF THE JEWS.


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
angelobrazil

angelobrazil wrote:

 

 

http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/bible-christianity-f6/historicity-of-jesus-t189.htm Part I: Evidence of the existance of Jesus Christ by Simon Greenleaf, the Royal Professor of Law at Harvard University. Dr. Greenleaf, the Royal Professor of Law at Harvard University, was one of the greatest legal minds that ever lived. He wrote the famous legal volume entitled, A Treatise on the Law of Evidence, considered by many the greatest legal volume ever written. Dr. Simon Greenleaf believed the Resurrection of Jesus Christ was a hoax. And he determined, once and for all, to expose the "myth" of the Resurrection. After thoroughly examining the evidence for the resurrection — Dr. Greenleaf came to the exact opposite conclusion! He wrote a book entitled, An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice. In which he emphatically stated: "it was IMPOSSIBLE that the apostles could have persisted in affirming the truths they had narrated, had not JESUS CHRIST ACTUALLY RISEN FROM THE DEAD, . . ." (Simon Greenleaf, An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice, p.29). Some of the examples of secular and Jewish historical writings (some quite anti-Christian in tone) known for years by scholars. Below is the Josephus excerpt about Jesus from the much older, Arab-Christian source. "At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good, and was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive, accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders." One of the most important historical sources on early Judaism that is still in existence today comes from the writings of Flavius Josephus. Josephus was born around A.D. 37 (slightly after Jesus' death), and died around 100 A.D. He was the son of a Judaean priest and was educated as a Pharisee. When the revolt of 66 A.D. first broke out, Josephus was the commander-in-chief of the Northern Jewish resistance against the Romans. After being captured by the Romans, he determined that any further resistance was hopeless, and from that point on, sided with the Romans. In 70 A.D. after serving as the interpreter to Titus during the final siege on Jerusalem, he moved back to Rome. There, under the patronage of successive Roman Emperors, he wrote two large histories on the Jewish people--THE JEWISH WARS and THE ANTIQUITIES OF THE JEWS.

If the apostles had written the Gospels, you and Greenleaf would have a case. Unfortunately for you both, they were written long afterward. However, there was less time between the Gospels and Paul's epistles so it is more likely that they fused Paul's ideas of a divine Jesus with a real teacher.

As for Josephus, you have the disadvantages of the passage of time and not knowing which Jesus he was talking about. You act as though there was only one guy named Jesus from Nazareth that the Romans crucified during Pilate's tenure.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


angelobrazil
Theist
Posts: 275
Joined: 2007-10-02
User is offlineOffline
jcgadfly wrote:angelobrazil

jcgadfly wrote:

angelobrazil wrote:

 

 

http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/bible-christianity-f6/historicity-of-jesus-t189.htm Part I: Evidence of the existance of Jesus Christ by Simon Greenleaf, the Royal Professor of Law at Harvard University. Dr. Greenleaf, the Royal Professor of Law at Harvard University, was one of the greatest legal minds that ever lived. He wrote the famous legal volume entitled, A Treatise on the Law of Evidence, considered by many the greatest legal volume ever written. Dr. Simon Greenleaf believed the Resurrection of Jesus Christ was a hoax. And he determined, once and for all, to expose the "myth" of the Resurrection. After thoroughly examining the evidence for the resurrection — Dr. Greenleaf came to the exact opposite conclusion! He wrote a book entitled, An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice. In which he emphatically stated: "it was IMPOSSIBLE that the apostles could have persisted in affirming the truths they had narrated, had not JESUS CHRIST ACTUALLY RISEN FROM THE DEAD, . . ." (Simon Greenleaf, An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice, p.29). Some of the examples of secular and Jewish historical writings (some quite anti-Christian in tone) known for years by scholars. Below is the Josephus excerpt about Jesus from the much older, Arab-Christian source. "At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good, and was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive, accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders." One of the most important historical sources on early Judaism that is still in existence today comes from the writings of Flavius Josephus. Josephus was born around A.D. 37 (slightly after Jesus' death), and died around 100 A.D. He was the son of a Judaean priest and was educated as a Pharisee. When the revolt of 66 A.D. first broke out, Josephus was the commander-in-chief of the Northern Jewish resistance against the Romans. After being captured by the Romans, he determined that any further resistance was hopeless, and from that point on, sided with the Romans. In 70 A.D. after serving as the interpreter to Titus during the final siege on Jerusalem, he moved back to Rome. There, under the patronage of successive Roman Emperors, he wrote two large histories on the Jewish people--THE JEWISH WARS and THE ANTIQUITIES OF THE JEWS.

If the apostles had written the Gospels, you and Greenleaf would have a case. Unfortunately for you both, they were written long afterward. However, there was less time between the Gospels and Paul's epistles so it is more likely that they fused Paul's ideas of a divine Jesus with a real teacher.

As for Josephus, you have the disadvantages of the passage of time and not knowing which Jesus he was talking about. You act as though there was only one guy named Jesus from Nazareth that the Romans crucified during Pilate's tenure.

 

this homepage nails down to a pretty non issue the nonsense argument , that Jesus is not historical figure. 

 

 

http://www.tektonics.org/lp/nowayjose.html


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
angelobrazil wrote:jcgadfly

angelobrazil wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

angelobrazil wrote:

 

 

http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/bible-christianity-f6/historicity-of-jesus-t189.htm Part I: Evidence of the existance of Jesus Christ by Simon Greenleaf, the Royal Professor of Law at Harvard University. Dr. Greenleaf, the Royal Professor of Law at Harvard University, was one of the greatest legal minds that ever lived. He wrote the famous legal volume entitled, A Treatise on the Law of Evidence, considered by many the greatest legal volume ever written. Dr. Simon Greenleaf believed the Resurrection of Jesus Christ was a hoax. And he determined, once and for all, to expose the "myth" of the Resurrection. After thoroughly examining the evidence for the resurrection — Dr. Greenleaf came to the exact opposite conclusion! He wrote a book entitled, An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice. In which he emphatically stated: "it was IMPOSSIBLE that the apostles could have persisted in affirming the truths they had narrated, had not JESUS CHRIST ACTUALLY RISEN FROM THE DEAD, . . ." (Simon Greenleaf, An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice, p.29). Some of the examples of secular and Jewish historical writings (some quite anti-Christian in tone) known for years by scholars. Below is the Josephus excerpt about Jesus from the much older, Arab-Christian source. "At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good, and was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive, accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders." One of the most important historical sources on early Judaism that is still in existence today comes from the writings of Flavius Josephus. Josephus was born around A.D. 37 (slightly after Jesus' death), and died around 100 A.D. He was the son of a Judaean priest and was educated as a Pharisee. When the revolt of 66 A.D. first broke out, Josephus was the commander-in-chief of the Northern Jewish resistance against the Romans. After being captured by the Romans, he determined that any further resistance was hopeless, and from that point on, sided with the Romans. In 70 A.D. after serving as the interpreter to Titus during the final siege on Jerusalem, he moved back to Rome. There, under the patronage of successive Roman Emperors, he wrote two large histories on the Jewish people--THE JEWISH WARS and THE ANTIQUITIES OF THE JEWS.

If the apostles had written the Gospels, you and Greenleaf would have a case. Unfortunately for you both, they were written long afterward. However, there was less time between the Gospels and Paul's epistles so it is more likely that they fused Paul's ideas of a divine Jesus with a real teacher.

As for Josephus, you have the disadvantages of the passage of time and not knowing which Jesus he was talking about. You act as though there was only one guy named Jesus from Nazareth that the Romans crucified during Pilate's tenure.

 

this homepage nails down to a pretty non issue the nonsense argument , that Jesus is not historical figure. 

 

 

http://www.tektonics.org/lp/nowayjose.html

'

I have no problem with Jesus being a historical figure. I have a problem with the Son of God being a historical figure. That's the proof that is lacking. Jesus as the son of God (and God himself) is the construct of Paul and the writers of the Gospels.

You have proof Jesus was the son of God and did all the things that were written about him (which are conspicuously absent from other historians of the time)? Let's talk.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Jesusfreaks4theathiest! (not verified)
Posts: 4294964979
Joined: 1969-12-31
User is offlineOffline
Jesus Is GOD!!!!! Amen!!!

 

CHRISTIANS / BELIEVERS PLEASE DO NOT POST ANYMORE COMMENTS ON THIS PAGE!!!!! THE ATHIEST/ UNBELIEVERS HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE

MESSAGE OF THE GOSPEL LOUD AND CLEAR .. AT THIS POINT THEY JUST GET OFF ON TRYING (TRYING)  TO MAKE A MOCKERY OF OUR BELIEF AND

JESUS !!

 

THIS WILL BE MY LAST POST REGARDLESS WHAT THE RESPONSE MAY BE , SO FOR U UNBELIEVERS AS U PLAN 2 SAY THE MOST OFFENSIVE THINGS 2 ME PLEASE DO! FOR IF U ARE PERSECUTING ME THEN THAT MAKES KNOW THAT I AM THAT MUCH CLOSER (IN RELATIONSHIP) 2 MY LORD JESUS CHRIST!!

I'D LIKE 2 SAY THAT 1ST AND FOREMOST U ATHIESTS FORGET THAT WITHOUT JESUS CHRISTS EXISTENCE YOUR KIND WOULD NOT EXIST ! JESUS CHRISTS NAME ALONE GIVES EVEN U POWER THATS Y U USE IT BECAUSE U KNOW THE POWER BEHIND IT! IF WE (BEIEVERS ) DIDNT BELIEVE IN JESUS HOW WOULD U SPEND UR TIME THEN??? EVEN UR GOD (sapient) SAID THIS :

"It has just been revealed to me that Jesus Christ never existed. I can't imagine living without this knowledge now that I have it. I feel so complete, and it feels so good to finally know the truth that Jesus Christ in fact NEVER existed.

I hope you too are able to find this truth."

IT SOUNDS 2 ME THAT EVEN sapient WAS DOING A LITTLE SOUL SEARCHING AT 1 TIME IN HIS LIFE !! FOR WHATEVER REASON HE DIDNT WANT TO ACCEPT JESUS'S MESSAGE , BUT THATS NONE OF MY CONCERN HES MADE HIS CHOICE AND WE WILL ALL KNOW THE TRUTH IN THE END .

BUT 1 THING I DONT UNDERSTAND IS WHY ATHIEST & UNBELIEVERS CANT REPRESENT THEMESELVES IN A MATURE RESPECTFUL MANNER ...ALL U DO IS PROVE  US BELIEVERS RIGHT ABOUT JESUS'S TEACHINGS WHEN U ACT LIKE FOOLS! YOU ATHIEST ESPECIALLY ... YOU GO OUT UR WAY 2 COMPLETELY DIRESPECT NOT JUST JESUS BUT US  ( BELIEVERS) AS WELL ! WHICH PROVES THAT YOUR NOT EVEN A GOOD PERSON WITHOUT GOD!  WHY CANT YOU MAKE A POINT WITHOUT BEING CHILDISH AND HATEFUL ...WHATS IT 2 U WHO OR WHAT I BELIEVE IN??????? ITS AS IF YOU HAVE A "PERSONAL" PROBLEM WITH A GOD U DONT EVEN BELIEVE EXISTS !!! I DONT BELIEVE IN ALIENS BUT U WONT CATCH ME BASHING AND ABUSING SUM1 THAT DOES!! DONT U AT LEAST HAVE RESPECT FOR HUMANITY! 

AND AS FAR AS UR STATEMENT ABOUT PEOPLE BIENG KILLED IN "MY" GODS NAME IS COMPLETELY FALSE!!! IF U OR ANY OTHER UNBELIEVER  KILLED SOMEONE TODAY AND YELLED OUT "IN JESUS NAME! " DOES THAT MEAN WE HAVE THE SAME GOD! ?? OF COURSE NOT ! MY POINT IS THAT JUST BECAUSE POEPLE USE HIS NAME DOESNT MEAN ITS THE SAME GOD .. U PROBABLY DONT UNDERSTAND THAT SINCE U HAVE NO COMPRHENSION OF THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD ... I CALL THAT TYPE OF JESUS "THE MAN MADE JESUS" THATS WHEN PEOPLE MAKE UP THERE OWN JESUS INSTEAD OF GOINGBY WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS THEY MAKE UP THERE OWN RULES AS THEY GO... THE "REAL" JESUS CHRIST  NEVER COMMANDED US TO KILL OR HARM ANYONE THAT DID NOT FOLLOW HIS WAYS...THAT WOULD DEFEAT THE WHOLE POINT OF THE RESSURECTION!!! HE GAVE US FREE WILL  .. WHICH MEANS WE CAN CHOOSE OUR OWN WAY OF LIFE WHETHER IT BE WITH HIM OR WITHOUT HIM ...ITS 100% ON YOU!

I COULD GO ON 4EVER  BUT I KNOW IM JUST WASTING MY TIME BUT I NEEDED TO AT LEAST PUT WHAT I HAD 2 SAY OUT THERE ... MY LAST WORDS IS THAT NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS FROM THIS POINT ON , ON THIS PAGE IN UR LIFE OR MY LIFE GODS WILL, WILL BE DONE!!! & YES EVEN U ATHIESTS ARE PART OF HIS PLAN!!! I LOVE IT!! GOD BLESS U ALL!! IN JESUS NAME!!!!

  


JESUSFREAK4THEA...
Posts: 2
Joined: 2010-08-26
User is offlineOffline
Jesus Is GOD!!!!! Amen!!!

CHRISTIANS / BELIEVERS PLEASE DO NOT POST ANYMORE COMMENTS ON THIS PAGE!!!!! THE ATHIEST/ UNBELIEVERS HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE

MESSAGE OF THE GOSPEL LOUD AND CLEAR .. AT THIS POINT THEY JUST GET OFF ON TRYING (TRYING)  TO MAKE A MOCKERY OF OUR BELIEF AND

JESUS !!

 

THIS WILL BE MY LAST POST REGARDLESS WHAT THE RESPONSE MAY BE , SO FOR U UNBELIEVERS AS U PLAN 2 SAY THE MOST OFFENSIVE THINGS 2 ME PLEASE DO! FOR IF U ARE PERSECUTING ME THEN THAT MAKES KNOW THAT I AM THAT MUCH CLOSER (IN RELATIONSHIP) 2 MY LORD JESUS CHRIST!!

I'D LIKE 2 SAY THAT 1ST AND FOREMOST U ATHIESTS FORGET THAT WITHOUT JESUS CHRISTS EXISTENCE YOUR KIND WOULD NOT EXIST ! JESUS CHRISTS NAME ALONE GIVES EVEN U POWER THATS Y U USE IT BECAUSE U KNOW THE POWER BEHIND IT! IF WE (BEIEVERS ) DIDNT BELIEVE IN JESUS HOW WOULD U SPEND UR TIME THEN??? EVEN UR GOD (sapient) SAID THIS :

"It has just been revealed to me that Jesus Christ never existed. I can't imagine living without this knowledge now that I have it. I feel so complete, and it feels so good to finally know the truth that Jesus Christ in fact NEVER existed.

I hope you too are able to find this truth."

IT SOUNDS 2 ME THAT EVEN sapient WAS DOING A LITTLE SOUL SEARCHING AT 1 TIME IN HIS LIFE !! FOR WHATEVER REASON HE DIDNT WANT TO ACCEPT JESUS'S MESSAGE , BUT THATS NONE OF MY CONCERN HES MADE HIS CHOICE AND WE WILL ALL KNOW THE TRUTH IN THE END .

BUT 1 THING I DONT UNDERSTAND IS WHY ATHIEST & UNBELIEVERS CANT REPRESENT THEMESELVES IN A MATURE RESPECTFUL MANNER ...ALL U DO IS PROVE  US BELIEVERS RIGHT ABOUT JESUS'S TEACHINGS WHEN U ACT LIKE FOOLS! YOU ATHIEST ESPECIALLY ... YOU GO OUT UR WAY 2 COMPLETELY DIRESPECT NOT JUST JESUS BUT US  ( BELIEVERS) AS WELL ! WHICH PROVES THAT YOUR NOT EVEN A GOOD PERSON WITHOUT GOD!  WHY CANT YOU MAKE A POINT WITHOUT BEING CHILDISH AND HATEFUL ...WHATS IT 2 U WHO OR WHAT I BELIEVE IN??????? ITS AS IF YOU HAVE A "PERSONAL" PROBLEM WITH A GOD U DONT EVEN BELIEVE EXISTS !!! I DONT BELIEVE IN ALIENS BUT U WONT CATCH ME BASHING AND ABUSING SUM1 THAT DOES!! DONT U AT LEAST HAVE RESPECT FOR HUMANITY! 

AND AS FAR AS UR STATEMENT ABOUT PEOPLE BIENG KILLED IN "MY" GODS NAME IS COMPLETELY FALSE!!! IF U OR ANY OTHER UNBELIEVER  KILLED SOMEONE TODAY AND YELLED OUT "IN JESUS NAME! " DOES THAT MEAN WE HAVE THE SAME GOD! ?? OF COURSE NOT ! MY POINT IS THAT JUST BECAUSE POEPLE USE HIS NAME DOESNT MEAN ITS THE SAME GOD .. U PROBABLY DONT UNDERSTAND THAT SINCE U HAVE NO COMPRHENSION OF THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD ... I CALL THAT TYPE OF JESUS "THE MAN MADE JESUS" THATS WHEN PEOPLE MAKE UP THERE OWN JESUS INSTEAD OF GOINGBY WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS THEY MAKE UP THERE OWN RULES AS THEY GO... THE "REAL" JESUS CHRIST  NEVER COMMANDED US TO KILL OR HARM ANYONE THAT DID NOT FOLLOW HIS WAYS...THAT WOULD DEFEAT THE WHOLE POINT OF THE RESSURECTION!!! HE GAVE US FREE WILL  .. WHICH MEANS WE CAN CHOOSE OUR OWN WAY OF LIFE WHETHER IT BE WITH HIM OR WITHOUT HIM ...ITS 100% ON YOU!

I COULD GO ON 4EVER  BUT I KNOW IM JUST WASTING MY TIME BUT I NEEDED TO AT LEAST PUT WHAT I HAD 2 SAY OUT THERE ... MY LAST WORDS IS THAT NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS FROM THIS POINT ON , ON THIS PAGE IN UR LIFE OR MY LIFE GODS WILL, WILL BE DONE!!! & YES EVEN U ATHIESTS ARE PART OF HIS PLAN!!! I LOVE IT!! GOD BLESS U ALL!! IN JESUS NAME!!!!

 


angelobrazil
Theist
Posts: 275
Joined: 2007-10-02
User is offlineOffline
jcgadfly wrote:angelobrazil

jcgadfly wrote:

angelobrazil wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

angelobrazil wrote:

 

 

http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/bible-christianity-f6/historicity-of-jesus-t189.htm Part I: Evidence of the existance of Jesus Christ by Simon Greenleaf, the Royal Professor of Law at Harvard University. Dr. Greenleaf, the Royal Professor of Law at Harvard University, was one of the greatest legal minds that ever lived. He wrote the famous legal volume entitled, A Treatise on the Law of Evidence, considered by many the greatest legal volume ever written. Dr. Simon Greenleaf believed the Resurrection of Jesus Christ was a hoax. And he determined, once and for all, to expose the "myth" of the Resurrection. After thoroughly examining the evidence for the resurrection — Dr. Greenleaf came to the exact opposite conclusion! He wrote a book entitled, An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice. In which he emphatically stated: "it was IMPOSSIBLE that the apostles could have persisted in affirming the truths they had narrated, had not JESUS CHRIST ACTUALLY RISEN FROM THE DEAD, . . ." (Simon Greenleaf, An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice, p.29). Some of the examples of secular and Jewish historical writings (some quite anti-Christian in tone) known for years by scholars. Below is the Josephus excerpt about Jesus from the much older, Arab-Christian source. "At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good, and was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive, accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders." One of the most important historical sources on early Judaism that is still in existence today comes from the writings of Flavius Josephus. Josephus was born around A.D. 37 (slightly after Jesus' death), and died around 100 A.D. He was the son of a Judaean priest and was educated as a Pharisee. When the revolt of 66 A.D. first broke out, Josephus was the commander-in-chief of the Northern Jewish resistance against the Romans. After being captured by the Romans, he determined that any further resistance was hopeless, and from that point on, sided with the Romans. In 70 A.D. after serving as the interpreter to Titus during the final siege on Jerusalem, he moved back to Rome. There, under the patronage of successive Roman Emperors, he wrote two large histories on the Jewish people--THE JEWISH WARS and THE ANTIQUITIES OF THE JEWS.

If the apostles had written the Gospels, you and Greenleaf would have a case. Unfortunately for you both, they were written long afterward. However, there was less time between the Gospels and Paul's epistles so it is more likely that they fused Paul's ideas of a divine Jesus with a real teacher.

As for Josephus, you have the disadvantages of the passage of time and not knowing which Jesus he was talking about. You act as though there was only one guy named Jesus from Nazareth that the Romans crucified during Pilate's tenure.

 

this homepage nails down to a pretty non issue the nonsense argument , that Jesus is not historical figure. 

 

 

http://www.tektonics.org/lp/nowayjose.html

'

I have no problem with Jesus being a historical figure. I have a problem with the Son of God being a historical figure. That's the proof that is lacking. Jesus as the son of God (and God himself) is the construct of Paul and the writers of the Gospels.

You have proof Jesus was the son of God and did all the things that were written about him (which are conspicuously absent from other historians of the time)? Let's talk.

 

 

 

 

permit to answer, copying Craig :

http://www.leaderu.com/truth/3truth11.html

1. Jesus’s Radical Self-Concept as the Divine Son of God. Radical critics deny that the historical Jesus thought of himself as the divine Son of God. They say that after Jesus’s death, the early church claimed that he had said these things, even though he hadn’t.

The big problem with this hypothesis is that it is inexplicable how monotheistic Jews could have attributed divinity to a man they had known, if he never claimed any such things himself. Monotheism is the heart of the Jewish religion, and it would have been blasphemous to say that a human being was God. Yet this is precisely what the earliest Christians did proclaim and believe about Jesus. Such a claim must have been rooted in Jesus’s own teaching.

And in fact, the majority of scholars do believe that among the historically authentic words of Jesus--these are the words in the gospels which the Jesus Seminar would print in red--among the historically authentic words of Jesus are claims that reveal his divine self-understanding. One could give a whole lecture on this point alone; but let me focus on Jesus’s self-concept of being the unique, divine Son of God.

Jesus’s radical self-understanding is revealed, for example, in his parable of the wicked tenants of the vineyard. Even sceptical scholars admit the authenticity of this parable, since it is also found in the Gospel of Thomas, one of their favorite sources. In this parable, the owner of the vineyard sent servants to the tenants of the vineyard to collect its fruit. The vineyard symbolizes Israel, the owner is God, the tenants are the Jewish religious leaders, and the servants are prophets send by God. The tenants beat and reject the owner’s servants. Finally, the owner says, "I will send my only, beloved son. They will listen to my son." But instead, the tenants kill the son because he is the heir to the vineyard. Now what does this parable tell us about Jesus’s self-understanding? He thought of himself as God’s special son, distinct from all the prophets, God’s final messenger, and even the heir to Israel. This is no mere Jewish peasant!

Jesus’s self-concept as God’s son comes to explicit expression in Matthew 11.27: "All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him." Again there is good reason to regard this as an authentic saying of the historical Jesus. It is drawn from an old source which was shared by Matthew and Luke, which scholars call the Q document. Moreover, it is unlikely the Church invented this saying because it says that the Son is unknowable-- "no one knows the Son except the Father"--, but for the post-Easter church we can know the Son. So this saying is not the product of later Church theology. What does this saying tell us about Jesus’s self-concept? He thought of himself as the exclusive and absolute Son of God and the only revelation of God to mankind! Make no mistake: if Jesus wasn’t who he said he was, he was crazier than David Koresh and Jim Jones put together!


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
angelobrazil wrote:jcgadfly

angelobrazil wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

angelobrazil wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

angelobrazil wrote:

 

 

http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/bible-christianity-f6/historicity-of-jesus-t189.htm Part I: Evidence of the existance of Jesus Christ by Simon Greenleaf, the Royal Professor of Law at Harvard University. Dr. Greenleaf, the Royal Professor of Law at Harvard University, was one of the greatest legal minds that ever lived. He wrote the famous legal volume entitled, A Treatise on the Law of Evidence, considered by many the greatest legal volume ever written. Dr. Simon Greenleaf believed the Resurrection of Jesus Christ was a hoax. And he determined, once and for all, to expose the "myth" of the Resurrection. After thoroughly examining the evidence for the resurrection — Dr. Greenleaf came to the exact opposite conclusion! He wrote a book entitled, An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice. In which he emphatically stated: "it was IMPOSSIBLE that the apostles could have persisted in affirming the truths they had narrated, had not JESUS CHRIST ACTUALLY RISEN FROM THE DEAD, . . ." (Simon Greenleaf, An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice, p.29). Some of the examples of secular and Jewish historical writings (some quite anti-Christian in tone) known for years by scholars. Below is the Josephus excerpt about Jesus from the much older, Arab-Christian source. "At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good, and was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive, accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders." One of the most important historical sources on early Judaism that is still in existence today comes from the writings of Flavius Josephus. Josephus was born around A.D. 37 (slightly after Jesus' death), and died around 100 A.D. He was the son of a Judaean priest and was educated as a Pharisee. When the revolt of 66 A.D. first broke out, Josephus was the commander-in-chief of the Northern Jewish resistance against the Romans. After being captured by the Romans, he determined that any further resistance was hopeless, and from that point on, sided with the Romans. In 70 A.D. after serving as the interpreter to Titus during the final siege on Jerusalem, he moved back to Rome. There, under the patronage of successive Roman Emperors, he wrote two large histories on the Jewish people--THE JEWISH WARS and THE ANTIQUITIES OF THE JEWS.

If the apostles had written the Gospels, you and Greenleaf would have a case. Unfortunately for you both, they were written long afterward. However, there was less time between the Gospels and Paul's epistles so it is more likely that they fused Paul's ideas of a divine Jesus with a real teacher.

As for Josephus, you have the disadvantages of the passage of time and not knowing which Jesus he was talking about. You act as though there was only one guy named Jesus from Nazareth that the Romans crucified during Pilate's tenure.

 

this homepage nails down to a pretty non issue the nonsense argument , that Jesus is not historical figure. 

 

 

http://www.tektonics.org/lp/nowayjose.html

'

I have no problem with Jesus being a historical figure. I have a problem with the Son of God being a historical figure. That's the proof that is lacking. Jesus as the son of God (and God himself) is the construct of Paul and the writers of the Gospels.

You have proof Jesus was the son of God and did all the things that were written about him (which are conspicuously absent from other historians of the time)? Let's talk.

 

 

 

 

permit to answer, copying Craig : http://www.leaderu.com/truth/3truth11.html 1. Jesus’s Radical Self-Concept as the Divine Son of God. Radical critics deny that the historical Jesus thought of himself as the divine Son of God. They say that after Jesus’s death, the early church claimed that he had said these things, even though he hadn’t. The big problem with this hypothesis is that it is inexplicable how monotheistic Jews could have attributed divinity to a man they had known, if he never claimed any such things himself. Monotheism is the heart of the Jewish religion, and it would have been blasphemous to say that a human being was God. Yet this is precisely what the earliest Christians did proclaim and believe about Jesus. Such a claim must have been rooted in Jesus’s own teaching. And in fact, the majority of scholars do believe that among the historically authentic words of Jesus--these are the words in the gospels which the Jesus Seminar would print in red--among the historically authentic words of Jesus are claims that reveal his divine self-understanding. One could give a whole lecture on this point alone; but let me focus on Jesus’s self-concept of being the unique, divine Son of God. Jesus’s radical self-understanding is revealed, for example, in his parable of the wicked tenants of the vineyard. Even sceptical scholars admit the authenticity of this parable, since it is also found in the Gospel of Thomas, one of their favorite sources. In this parable, the owner of the vineyard sent servants to the tenants of the vineyard to collect its fruit. The vineyard symbolizes Israel, the owner is God, the tenants are the Jewish religious leaders, and the servants are prophets send by God. The tenants beat and reject the owner’s servants. Finally, the owner says, "I will send my only, beloved son. They will listen to my son." But instead, the tenants kill the son because he is the heir to the vineyard. Now what does this parable tell us about Jesus’s self-understanding? He thought of himself as God’s special son, distinct from all the prophets, God’s final messenger, and even the heir to Israel. This is no mere Jewish peasant! Jesus’s self-concept as God’s son comes to explicit expression in Matthew 11.27: "All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him." Again there is good reason to regard this as an authentic saying of the historical Jesus. It is drawn from an old source which was shared by Matthew and Luke, which scholars call the Q document. Moreover, it is unlikely the Church invented this saying because it says that the Son is unknowable-- "no one knows the Son except the Father"--, but for the post-Easter church we can know the Son. So this saying is not the product of later Church theology. What does this saying tell us about Jesus’s self-concept? He thought of himself as the exclusive and absolute Son of God and the only revelation of God to mankind! Make no mistake: if Jesus wasn’t who he said he was, he was crazier than David Koresh and Jim Jones put together!

It's not a problem at all - the monotheistic Jews didn't attribute divinity to Jesus. That happened later thanks to Paul. It had nothing to do with Jesus' teaching as Jesus didn't teach "follow my words instead of the Torah".

Craig's claim to Jesus' divine self concept most likely started out as a claim to his Messiahship (being sent by God). The gospels were written by Christians supporting Paul's idea of a divine Jesus. That Jesus said those words lends no credence to a divine claim. All observant Jews can lay claim to the title "children of God".

You are still back to the only way we know of a divine Jesus is through Paul and his followers. Jesus (being a monotheistic Jew) would most likely have been offended if he knew what Paul did to him. I've always wondered why Craig doesn't acknowledge Jesus' Jewishness and jumps right to Paul (the Roman's) magic claims.

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


JESUSFREAK4THEA...
Posts: 2
Joined: 2010-08-26
User is offlineOffline
Jesus Is GOD!!!!! Amen!!!

Jesus Is GOD!!!!! Amen!!!

 

CHRISTIANS / BELIEVERS PLEASE DO NOT POST ANYMORE COMMENTS ON THIS PAGE!!!!! THE ATHIEST/ UNBELIEVERS HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE

MESSAGE OF THE GOSPEL LOUD AND CLEAR .. AT THIS POINT THEY JUST GET OFF ON TRYING (TRYING)  TO MAKE A MOCKERY OF OUR BELIEF AND

JESUS !!

 

THIS WILL BE MY LAST POST REGARDLESS WHAT THE RESPONSE MAY BE , SO FOR U UNBELIEVERS AS U PLAN 2 SAY THE MOST OFFENSIVE THINGS 2 ME PLEASE DO! FOR IF U ARE PERSECUTING ME THEN THAT MAKES KNOW THAT I AM THAT MUCH CLOSER (IN RELATIONSHIP) 2 MY LORD JESUS CHRIST!!

I'D LIKE 2 SAY THAT 1ST AND FOREMOST U ATHIESTS FORGET THAT WITHOUT JESUS CHRISTS EXISTENCE YOUR KIND WOULD NOT EXIST ! JESUS CHRISTS NAME ALONE GIVES EVEN U POWER THATS Y U USE IT BECAUSE U KNOW THE POWER BEHIND IT! IF WE (BEIEVERS ) DIDNT BELIEVE IN JESUS HOW WOULD U SPEND UR TIME THEN??? EVEN UR GOD (sapient) SAID THIS :

"It has just been revealed to me that Jesus Christ never existed. I can't imagine living without this knowledge now that I have it. I feel so complete, and it feels so good to finally know the truth that Jesus Christ in fact NEVER existed.

I hope you too are able to find this truth."

IT SOUNDS 2 ME THAT EVEN sapient WAS DOING A LITTLE SOUL SEARCHING AT 1 TIME IN HIS LIFE !! FOR WHATEVER REASON HE DIDNT WANT TO ACCEPT JESUS'S MESSAGE , BUT THATS NONE OF MY CONCERN HES MADE HIS CHOICE AND WE WILL ALL KNOW THE TRUTH IN THE END .

BUT 1 THING I DONT UNDERSTAND IS WHY ATHIEST & UNBELIEVERS CANT REPRESENT THEMESELVES IN A MATURE RESPECTFUL MANNER ...ALL U DO IS PROVE  US BELIEVERS RIGHT ABOUT JESUS'S TEACHINGS WHEN U ACT LIKE FOOLS! YOU ATHIEST ESPECIALLY ... YOU GO OUT UR WAY 2 COMPLETELY DIRESPECT NOT JUST JESUS BUT US  ( BELIEVERS) AS WELL ! WHICH PROVES THAT YOUR NOT EVEN A GOOD PERSON WITHOUT GOD!  WHY CANT YOU MAKE A POINT WITHOUT BEING CHILDISH AND HATEFUL ...WHATS IT 2 U WHO OR WHAT I BELIEVE IN??????? ITS AS IF YOU HAVE A "PERSONAL" PROBLEM WITH A GOD U DONT EVEN BELIEVE EXISTS !!! I DONT BELIEVE IN ALIENS BUT U WONT CATCH ME BASHING AND ABUSING SUM1 THAT DOES!! DONT U AT LEAST HAVE RESPECT FOR HUMANITY! 

AND AS FAR AS UR STATEMENT ABOUT PEOPLE BIENG KILLED IN "MY" GODS NAME IS COMPLETELY FALSE!!! IF U OR ANY OTHER UNBELIEVER  KILLED SOMEONE TODAY AND YELLED OUT "IN JESUS NAME! " DOES THAT MEAN WE HAVE THE SAME GOD! ?? OF COURSE NOT ! MY POINT IS THAT JUST BECAUSE POEPLE USE HIS NAME DOESNT MEAN ITS THE SAME GOD .. U PROBABLY DONT UNDERSTAND THAT SINCE U HAVE NO COMPRHENSION OF THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD ... I CALL THAT TYPE OF JESUS "THE MAN MADE JESUS" THATS WHEN PEOPLE MAKE UP THERE OWN JESUS INSTEAD OF GOINGBY WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS THEY MAKE UP THERE OWN RULES AS THEY GO... THE "REAL" JESUS CHRIST  NEVER COMMANDED US TO KILL OR HARM ANYONE THAT DID NOT FOLLOW HIS WAYS...THAT WOULD DEFEAT THE WHOLE POINT OF THE RESSURECTION!!! HE GAVE US FREE WILL  .. WHICH MEANS WE CAN CHOOSE OUR OWN WAY OF LIFE WHETHER IT BE WITH HIM OR WITHOUT HIM ...ITS 100% ON YOU!

I COULD GO ON 4EVER  BUT I KNOW IM JUST WASTING MY TIME BUT I NEEDED TO AT LEAST PUT WHAT I HAD 2 SAY OUT THERE ... MY LAST WORDS IS THAT NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS FROM THIS POINT ON , ON THIS PAGE IN UR LIFE OR MY LIFE GODS WILL, WILL BE DONE!!! & YES EVEN U ATHIESTS ARE PART OF HIS PLAN!!! I LOVE IT!! GOD BLESS U ALL!! IN JESUS NAME!!!!

 

 


Tadgh
atheist
Tadgh's picture
Posts: 125
Joined: 2010-08-29
User is offlineOffline
Sapient wrote:It has just

Sapient wrote:
It has just been revealed to me that Jesus Christ never existed. I can't imagine living without this knowledge now that I have it. I feel so complete, and it feels so good to finally know the truth that Jesus Christ in fact NEVER existed. I hope you too are able to find this truth.

That is all the evidence I need. I scoff at those heretics who would deny the truth as it has been revealed to you. Oh, and by the way, it has been revealed to me that someone named David would expend a great deal of energy trying to manfacture evidence in a vain attempt to refute your revelation.


Athiestequalslost (not verified)
Posts: 4294964979
Joined: 1969-12-31
User is offlineOffline
WOW!

Halarious!!! thats all the  proof u need??  and u ppl talk about us (christians) not having any evidence! hahahahahaha!!!  i bet this is Sapient under another name tryin 2 redeem himself after Davids great truths of  Jesus!  Followed by Jesusfreak4theathiest's  unbeatable points!  U athiest make me laugh ! try a lil' harder !! so far its 2 - 0 ...christians in the lead! ...hahahahaaha!!


LikeitornotJesu...
Theist
LikeitornotJesusdoesexist's picture
Posts: 18
Joined: 2010-08-30
User is offlineOffline
WOW!

Thats all the evidence u need!?...hahahahaha!!! halarious! and u guys talk about us christians not having enough eveidence! I bet Sapient went under another name and posted this comment 2 himself 2 redeem himself 4rm David!  loL! Even Jesusfreakfortheathiest's comment was 100% on point!  so far its 2 -0 , christians in the lead!  hahahaha!


LikeitornotJesu...
Theist
LikeitornotJesusdoesexist's picture
Posts: 18
Joined: 2010-08-30
User is offlineOffline
WOW!

Thats all the evidence u need!?...hahahahaha!!! halarious! and u guys talk about us christians not having enough eveidence! I bet Sapient went under another name and posted this comment 2 himself 2 redeem himself 4rm David!  loL! Even Jesusfreakfortheathiest's comment was 100% on point!  so far its 2 -0 , christians in the lead!  hahahaha!


LikeitornotJesu...
Theist
LikeitornotJesusdoesexist's picture
Posts: 18
Joined: 2010-08-30
User is offlineOffline
WOW!

 

Thats all the evidence u need!?...hahahahaha!!! halarious! and u guys talk about us christians not having enough eveidence! I bet Sapient went under another name and posted this comment 2 himself 2 redeem himself 4rm David!  loL! Even Jesusfreakfortheathiest's comment was 100% on point!  so far its 2 -0 , christians in the lead!  hahahaha!

 


jcgadfly
SuperfanBronze Member
Posts: 6789
Joined: 2006-07-18
User is offlineOffline
LikeitornotJesusdoesexist

LikeitornotJesusdoesexist wrote:

 

Thats all the evidence u need!?...hahahahaha!!! halarious! and u guys talk about us christians not having enough eveidence! I bet Sapient went under another name and posted this comment 2 himself 2 redeem himself 4rm David!  loL! Even Jesusfreakfortheathiest's comment was 100% on point!  so far its 2 -0 , christians in the lead!  hahahaha!

 

You had to say it 3 times?

Sapient's just throwing your dung back at you.

You claim that faith is all the evidence you need for your God being real - why are you complaining?

Oh I forgot - if you Christian types didn't have a double standard you wouldn't have one at all.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


Tadgh
atheist
Tadgh's picture
Posts: 125
Joined: 2010-08-29
User is offlineOffline
jcgadfly wrote:Oh I forgot -

jcgadfly wrote:
Oh I forgot - if you Christian types didn't have a double standard you wouldn't have one at all.
 

Spot on, jcgadfly !

I am very pleased (and amused) at the thought that someone thinks I might be Mr. Sapient. I will not attempt to disabuse anyone of their illusions (excuse me, delusions,) so I will say no more about it.

It is very obvious (because it has been revealed) that many christians, besides lacking credibility are lacking in a sense of humor as well.


LikeitornotJesu...
Theist
LikeitornotJesusdoesexist's picture
Posts: 18
Joined: 2010-08-30
User is offlineOffline
You guyz r a joke ...thanx 4

You guyz r a joke ...thanx 4 the laugh!


LikeitornotJesu...
Theist
LikeitornotJesusdoesexist's picture
Posts: 18
Joined: 2010-08-30
User is offlineOffline
Is that all u could come up

Is that all u could come up with! loL!   jcgadfly !... out of all the intelligent comments i feel special that u chose mine 2 respond 2! loL!... or ur just not smart enough 2 understand the others...what a fool! 


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7523
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
LikeitornotJesusdoesexist

LikeitornotJesusdoesexist wrote:

 

Thats all the evidence u need!?...hahahahaha!!! halarious! 

I was following your lead.  You mean I don't have enough evidence?  I guess you don't have enough either then, eh?

 

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


LikeitornotJesu...
Theist
LikeitornotJesusdoesexist's picture
Posts: 18
Joined: 2010-08-30
User is offlineOffline
I was never in a debate with

I was never in a debate with u about  evidence ??.. wheres the omment i left on my having eveidence??.. not saying there isnt any ..buz theres plenty ..im just sayin i personally never brought that up .. and like i said 2 the others so many much more intelligent comments were left besides my own personal opinion y not debate with sum 1's more challenging comments as Jesusfreak4theathiests comments??..ahh...didnt think so .. ur & ur followers are absolutely obsurd ! and an absolute JOKE 2 society ! Sapient i expect better 4rm u ....!


LikeitornotJesu...
Theist
LikeitornotJesusdoesexist's picture
Posts: 18
Joined: 2010-08-30
User is offlineOffline
By the way ! David seem 2

By the way ! David seem 2 have more than sumthin "revealed " 2 him ...but u dont want 2 acknowledge that ..of course!


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7523
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
 

 

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


LikeitornotJesu...
Theist
LikeitornotJesusdoesexist's picture
Posts: 18
Joined: 2010-08-30
User is offlineOffline
I FIGURED! LOL!....WHAT A

I FIGURED! LOL!....WHAT A LOSER !...  U NEED JESUS!! HAAHAHAHAHAHA!!