Proof that Jesus Christ never existed!!! Christians read!

Sapient
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Proof that Jesus Christ never existed!!! Christians read!

It has just been revealed to me that Jesus Christ never existed. I can't imagine living without this knowledge now that I have it. I feel so complete, and it feels so good to finally know the truth that Jesus Christ in fact NEVER existed.

I hope you too are able to find this truth.

- Brian Sapient


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KingDavid8
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Re: Proof that Jesus Christ never existed!!! Christians read

Sapient wrote:
It has just been revealed to me that Jesus Christ never existed. I can't imagine living without this knowledge now that I have it. I feel so complete, and it feels so good to finally know the truth that Jesus Christ in fact NEVER existed.

I hope you too are able to find this truth.

So who should I believe? Your anonymous source, or the people who knew Him and wrote about Him? Hmmm....

David


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That's impossible. Who knew him and wrote about him?

I already knew before anything was revealed to me that first hand accounts of Jesus don't exist. In addition it was revealed to me that he didn't exist. You don't have to believe me, I really don't care, just know you are definetly wasting your life in believing in him, because I know that he didn't exist for a fact.

- Brian Sapient


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Proof that Jesus Christ never existed!!! Christians read!

Sapient wrote:
That's impossible. Who knew him and wrote about him?

I already knew before anything was revealed to me that first hand accounts of Jesus don't exist. In addition it was revealed to me that he didn't exist. You don't have to believe me, I really don't care, just know you are definetly wasting your life in believing in him, because I know that he didn't exist for a fact.

how do you know that for a FACT? were you there during the time of Jesus Lifetime?

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


KingDavid8
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Sapient wrote:
That's impossible. Who knew him and wrote about him?

John and Matthew.

Quote:

I already knew before anything was revealed to me that first hand accounts of Jesus don't exist.

And you know this how? It's true that we only have copies of the original texts, not the original texts themselves, but the evidence consistently and overwhelmingly points to John and Matthew having written, or at least dictated, their texts, and for the copies we have to be relatively faithful to the originals, with no more than a handful of passages in any kind of reasonable doubt.

Quote:
In addition it was revealed to me that he didn't exist. You don't have to believe me, I really don't care, just know you are definetly wasting your life in believing in him, because I know that he didn't exist for a fact.

Give me your evidence. If Jesus didn't exist, then I don't want to waste my time.

David


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Proof that Jesus Christ never existed!!! Christians read!

JesusSaves wrote:
Sapient wrote:
That's impossible. Who knew him and wrote about him?

I already knew before anything was revealed to me that first hand accounts of Jesus don't exist. In addition it was revealed to me that he didn't exist. You don't have to believe me, I really don't care, just know you are definetly wasting your life in believing in him, because I know that he didn't exist for a fact.

how do you know that for a FACT? were you there during the time of Jesus Lifetime?

I told you it was revealed to me. I know for sure now. I hope you find out this truth.

- Brian Sapient


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Sapient
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KingDavid8 wrote:

And you know this how? It's true that we only have copies of the original texts, not the original texts themselves, but the evidence consistently and overwhelmingly points to John and Matthew having written, or at least dictated, their texts, and for the copies we have to be relatively faithful to the originals, with no more than a handful of passages in any kind of reasonable doubt.

What evidence is there to show that John and Matthew wrote the original texts or dictated them? Even Christian scholars agree the gospels weren't written until around or after 80 AD, they would've been dead.

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In addition it was revealed to me that he didn't exist. You don't have to believe me, I really don't care, just know you are definetly wasting your life in believing in him, because I know that he didn't exist for a fact.

Give me your evidence. If Jesus didn't exist, then I don't want to waste my time.

Why do you need evidence? Missing evidence hasn't stopped you from believing in God. You're wasting our time on God belief without evidence for him, I don't see why you need it from me. Like I said it was revealed to me and I know for sure, just trust me. Jesus didn't exist.

- Brian Sapient


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KingDavid8
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Sapient wrote:
KingDavid8 wrote:

And you know this how? It's true that we only have copies of the original texts, not the original texts themselves, but the evidence consistently and overwhelmingly points to John and Matthew having written, or at least dictated, their texts, and for the copies we have to be relatively faithful to the originals, with no more than a handful of passages in any kind of reasonable doubt.

What evidence is there to show that John and Matthew wrote the original texts or dictated them? Even Christian scholars agree the gospels weren't written until around or after 80 AD, they would've been dead.

No, since John lived until almost 100 AD, and Matthew's was written 80 AD at the latest, with the 60's or early 70's being more likely, and while we don't know when he died, we do know of most of the deaths of "major players" that happened prior to 70 AD, like Steven (34 AD), James (44 AD), and Paul (67 AD). Had Matthew died prior to 70 AD or so, the facts would probably be known to us. Either way, there is zero evidence that Matthew died before His Gospel was written.

But the evidence that John and Matthew wrote the Gospels is that they are the only ones ever credited with having written them. When historians see multiple copies of a document universally credited to a single author, they assume the credited authorship is correct unless there is some sort of conflicting evidence (such as evidence that it was not written within the life of the author, or some early figure questioning the authorship). Since there is zero evidence against the credited authorships, the evidence unanimously and overwhelmingly favors the credited authorships. We also have many references from the 2nd century confirming the credited authorships, such as Irenaeus, Diatessaron, Papias, and Theophilus.

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In addition it was revealed to me that he didn't exist. You don't have to believe me, I really don't care, just know you are definetly wasting your life in believing in him, because I know that he didn't exist for a fact.

Give me your evidence. If Jesus didn't exist, then I don't want to waste my time.

Why do you need evidence? Missing evidence hasn't stopped you from believing in God. You're wasting our time on God belief without evidence for him, I don't see why you need it from me. Like I said it was revealed to me and I know for sure, just trust me. Jesus didn't exist.

I have evidence for God's existence (that the universe began to exist, which suggests some sort of creator) and for Jesus' having existed (about a thousand pages, most, if not all, dating to within the century that He lived). And also, evidence for Jesus' resurrection indirectly counts as evidence for God, since if no God exists, Jesus' resurrection would have been impossible.

Now, if you have evidence to the contrary, I'll gladly look at it.

David


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I have evidence for God's existence (that the universe began to exist, which suggests some sort of creator) and for Jesus' having existed (about a thousand pages, most, if not all, dating to within the century that He lived). And also, evidence for Jesus' resurrection indirectly counts as evidence for God, since if no God exists, Jesus' resurrection would have been impossible

The universe's existence is only evidence that at some point, some process happened that caused to the universe to exist as we see it. It is neither evidence of God's existence or any other creator's existence. Could that process have been triggered by some sort of creator? yes. is that likely? no. As there is not sufficient evidence to support any sort of divine or even alien creator. Also keep in mind that the people of the day were very superstitious and easily led to believe almost any claim. Various cultures (including the hebrews) used to believe that being struck by moonlight could make a woman pregnant, these types of beliefs make it difficult to find any text describing "miracles" from that time period to be even close to being credible. Maybe he existed, maybe he didn't, but was he the son of god, or any other deity/alien/etc ? Most probably no.

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KingDavid8 wrote:

I have evidence for God's existence (that the universe began to exist, which suggests some sort of creator)

You're kidding, right?
KingDavid8 wrote:
and for Jesus' having existed (about a thousand pages, most, if not all, dating to within the century that He lived).

if people are dumb enough to believe today, how much easier would it have been to believe back then? Just because they had the ability to write does not make everythig that they wrote true, dumbass.
kingdavey wrote:

And also, evidence for Jesus' resurrection indirectly counts as evidence for God, since if no God exists, Jesus' resurrection would have been impossible.

Evidence for Jesus' resurrection!!! why didn't you tell me sooner!!!


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KingDavid8 wrote:
Sapient wrote:
That's impossible. Who knew him and wrote about him?

John and Matthew.

Poor choices.

The gospel of 'John' is considered to be the last of the four gospels.... and we know that Mark, the first of the "four" (There were a lot more than four, by the way, and doesn't that bother you at all? ) wasn't written until after 70 AD, so that rules out the John author as an eyewitness.

As for Matthew, the Matthew author himself invalidates himself as an eyewitness. In chapters 27 and 28 he makes it clear that he is referring to events that occured well before the time he was writing in.

And Matthew chapter 21, verses four and five are irrefutible proof that the matthew writer merely took from the Markian source and from the Old testament to tell his story.

In those verses, he has 'jesus' riding two animals:

21:4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, "All this was done, that it might be fulfilled"
21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.

Based on his MISREADING of Zechariah 9:9

9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Matthew misreads the original and has jesus riding TWO animals when the original writer only meant one!

This is proof that the matthew author took stories from the OT, and that he did NOT actually witness the events he wrote on!

Since the book of mark, the first gospel, is clearly a midrash of the OT - we can clearly see that most of the claims are simply stories taken from books of the old testament. So this refutes the idea that ANY of the gospels are eye witness accounts:

http://users2.ev1.net/%7Eturton/GMark/GMark01.html

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I already knew before anything was revealed to me that first hand accounts of Jesus don't exist.

Quote:

And you know this how? It's true that we only have copies of the original texts, not the original texts themselves, but the evidence consistently and overwhelmingly points to John and Matthew having written, or at least dictated, their texts,

And you know this how? What "evidence" are you pointing to?

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and for the copies we have to be relatively faithful to the originals

Wow! How can you know this without having an original!?

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, with no more than a handful of passages in any kind of reasonable doubt.

Again, how can you know this without an original?

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qwak wrote:
Quote:
I have evidence for God's existence (that the universe began to exist, which suggests some sort of creator) and for Jesus' having existed (about a thousand pages, most, if not all, dating to within the century that He lived). And also, evidence for Jesus' resurrection indirectly counts as evidence for God, since if no God exists, Jesus' resurrection would have been impossible

The universe's existence is only evidence that at some point, some process happened that caused to the universe to exist as we see it. It is neither evidence of God's existence or any other creator's existence. Could that process have been triggered by some sort of creator? yes. is that likely? no.

Yes, actually. That our universe is in such a state or order that life is not only possible, but apparently inevitable - and that life can exist and thrive for billions of years without being swallowed up by the chaos we would expect in a universe that was created by random means, suggests (though by no means proves) that whatever force created the universe was purposeful. Had random, unguided forces created the universe, I find it very unlikely (though not impossible) that we'd be here for as long as we have been.

David


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the_avenging_bucket wrote:
KingDavid8 wrote:

I have evidence for God's existence (that the universe began to exist, which suggests some sort of creator)

You're kidding, right?
KingDavid8 wrote:
and for Jesus' having existed (about a thousand pages, most, if not all, dating to within the century that He lived).

if people are dumb enough to believe today, how much easier would it have been to believe back then? Just because they had the ability to write does not make everythig that they wrote true, dumbass.
Quote:

And neither does the fact that they had the ability to write automatically everything they wrote untrue. If you have evidence that what they wrote was untrue, please show it. If the best you have is that you don't personally believe in it and think that all religious belief is "dumb", that's hardly going to sway me. You're welcome to your opinions, but don't expect me to take your opinions as evidence against what I believe. I need something a tad stronger than that.

kingdavey wrote:

And also, evidence for Jesus' resurrection indirectly counts as evidence for God, since if no God exists, Jesus' resurrection would have been impossible.

Evidence for Jesus' resurrection!!! why didn't you tell me sooner!!!

You know what the evidence is, and you reject it. Since you're an atheist, I don't blame you one bit for rejecting it. If you are absolutely convinced that God does not exist, then Jesus' resurrection was impossible and never happened, so the Gospel stories must be untrue.

But if it's even possible that God exists, then it's possible that Jesus was resurrected, and I do happen to believe that it's possible that God exists. Therefore, I base the question of whether Jesus was resurrected on the evidence, and I find the evidence quite convincing indeed.

Again, all you've presented so far is that you don't personally believe in it. I don't blame you for that. But that's not going to persuade someone like me who believes that it's possible (though not certain, I'll agree) that God exists.

David


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KingDavid8 wrote:

You know what the evidence is, and you reject it.

When it was revealed to me, I came to understand that no evidence for the story of Jesus exists.

Quote:
But if it's even possible that God exists, then it's possible that Jesus was resurrected, and I do happen to believe that it's possible that God exists.

It's possible a god exists, but I've come to understand that Jesus wasn't real and never existed.

Quote:
Therefore, I base the question of whether Jesus was resurrected on the evidence, and I find the evidence quite convincing indeed.

Like I said, it was revealed to me he never existed. You have to believe in order to believe, you'll see what I mean when you accept this truth. Life has so much more meaning now that I know the truth, and I couldn't imagine living, believing there's a possibility Jesus existed again.

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KingDavid8
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todangst wrote:
KingDavid8 wrote:
Sapient wrote:
That's impossible. Who knew him and wrote about him?

John and Matthew.

Poor choices.

The gospel of 'John' is considered to be the last of the four gospels.... and we know that Mark, the first of the "four" (There were a lot more than four, by the way, and doesn't that bother you at all? )

No, because I take any Gospel written well after the life of its supposed "author" to not mean much as far as evidence goes. All Gospels except for the four in the Bible were, by all evidence, written at least half-way through the second century, by people who couldn't possibly have been around during Jesus' ministry, or talked to those who were.

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wasn't written until after 70 AD, so that rules out the John author as an eyewitness.

I'm not following you. Given that (per the evidence) John was alive when Jesus walked the Earth and lived until almost 100 AD, how could he not have been both a witness and the author of his Gospel?

And there's no evidence that Mark's Gospel couldn't have been written before 70 AD. Estimates I've seen for when it was written range from about 55-80 AD, with the most common dates being 64 or 65 AD.

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As for Matthew, the Matthew author himself invalidates himself as an eyewitness. In chapters 27 and 28 he makes it clear that he is referring to events that occured well before the time he was writing in.

Why does this invalidate him? Are people unable to write about things that they witnessed a long time before?

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And Matthew chapter 21, verses four and five are irrefutible proof that the matthew writer merely took from the Markian source and from the Old testament to tell his story.

Since Matthew writes about a whole lot of stuff that wasn't in the Gospel of Mark or the Old Testament, then clearly he had sources beyond that...such as his own experiences.

Quote:

In those verses, he has 'jesus' riding two animals:

21:4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, "All this was done, that it might be fulfilled"
21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.

Based on his MISREADING of Zechariah 9:9

9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Matthew misreads the original and has jesus riding TWO animals when the original writer only meant one!

This is proof that the matthew author took stories from the OT, and that he did NOT actually witness the events he wrote on!

At worst, it just shows that he misread the OT, not that the event he is describing wasn't witnessed by him. If he saw the two animals, and mentally referred back to Zech 9:9 (thinking it was about two animals), then I could see him deciding to mention it, believing (perhaps erroneously) that a prophecy was being fulfilled.

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Since the book of mark, the first gospel, is clearly a midrash of the OT - we can clearly see that most of the claims are simply stories taken from books of the old testament. So this refutes the idea that ANY of the gospels are eye witness accounts:

http://users2.ev1.net/%7Eturton/GMark/GMark01.html

That's a presumptive and subjective argument that most scholars don't buy.

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I already knew before anything was revealed to me that first hand accounts of Jesus don't exist.

Quote:

And you know this how? It's true that we only have copies of the original texts, not the original texts themselves, but the evidence consistently and overwhelmingly points to John and Matthew having written, or at least dictated, their texts,

And you know this how? What "evidence" are you pointing to?

The fact that every authorship credit we see for those Gospels goes to John and Matthew. When scholars see multiple copies of a given text credited to a specific author, they assume the authorship credit is correct, unless there is evidence to the contrary, or other reason to doubt it. Also, we have confirmation of the authorships from Irenaeus, Diatessaron, Papias, and Theophilus, as I already mentioned.

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and for the copies we have to be relatively faithful to the originals

Wow! How can you know this without having an original!?

I didn't say we "know", I said the evidence consistently and overwhelmingly points towards it. When weighing whether copies of texts accurately reflect what the original authors probably wrote, scholars use several criteria - the number of existing ancient copies, how geographically widespread those copies were, the length of time between the likely originals and the copies we have, the severity of differences between them, and references to the texts in other ancient works. They call the results its "manuscript support". The fact is that the NT writings have BETTER manuscript support than any other ancient non-Biblical texts. There isn't even a close second. Most ancient non-Biblical texts have only a few ancient copies surviving, and earliest copies average about hundreds of years after the likely originals. For the New Testament, we have about 24,000 ancient copies, some fragments within a single generation of their originals, and no entire copies more than 250 years after the originals. We also have 86,000 quotes from the New Testament in other ancient writings, and zero instances of severe differences between the various copies, only minor differences. Yes, that's very good evidence that the copies we have are relatively faithful to the originals.

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, with no more than a handful of passages in any kind of reasonable doubt.

Again, how can you know this without an original?

Again, we can't "know", but the manuscript support certainly suggests that the copies are relatively accurate. You don't find true scholars questioning more than a handful of passages from Matthew and John. If a given passage appears in every single copy we have, it's safe to assume it was in the original text. Only if it appears in some copies, but not others, or is significantly different (something more than just different wording for the same idea) is there any justification in questioning it.

David


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What you are failing to realize is that Sapient's word is infallible. Being a messenger for the truth is the hardest endeavor one can conceive of, but we must all appreciate our brother's supreme courage. The word of Sapient cannot be refuted by science, because it is science. It cannot be silenced by logic, because logic was borne of him and thus he gave it its voice.

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Sapient wrote:
KingDavid8 wrote:

You know what the evidence is, and you reject it.

When it was revealed to me, I came to understand that no evidence for the story of Jesus exists.

Then whoever or whatever revealed that to you is lying. Reject the evidence if you want, call the evidence unconvincing if you want, but don't pretend it doesn't exist.

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But if it's even possible that God exists, then it's possible that Jesus was resurrected, and I do happen to believe that it's possible that God exists.

It's possible a god exists, but I've come to understand that Jesus wasn't real and never existed.

Come to understand it how? Did someone tell this to you? Did someone present evidence for this? Or was it just a thought you had?

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Therefore, I base the question of whether Jesus was resurrected on the evidence, and I find the evidence quite convincing indeed.

Like I said, it was revealed to me he never existed. You have to believe in order to believe, you'll see what I mean when you accept this truth. Life has so much more meaning now that I know the truth, and I couldn't imagine living, believing there's a possibility Jesus existed again.

If something was revealed to you that is contrary to the evidence, go ahead and believe it if you want. But I consider faith that is contrary to the evidence to be illogical. Now, if this something or someone that revealed this information to you presented evidence to the contrary, then believing in it would not necessarily be illogical. If the evidence for Jesus' non-existence is stronger than the evidence for His existence, then it makes perfect logical sense for you to believe He didn't exist. And if it's stronger, then I would like to see it, also. I'd hate to keep believing in Him knowing that there is strong evidence for His non-existence, but not knowing what it is. But if all you have is that it was "revealed" to you and you're unwilling to tell me who or what revealed it, then I can only conclude that you're holding it back because you know I won't find your source convincing. And you're probably right.

And, by the way, I assume that you aren't being serious, but are just mocking those Christians who do the kind of thing that you are doing here - telling you what they feel God has revealed to them, and telling you that you simply MUST believe what they believe on faith alone, and not really giving you a good reason to do so (and often being surprised when their tactics don't work). I consider such people to be terrible witnesses, probably pushing those they witness to further away from Jesus instead of pulling them towards Him.

David


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David, I cannot understand why you are so closed-minded to the truth...
Why don't you try, just for once, to consider both sides?
Open your heart and accept that Jesus never existed- then you will see that the whole idea of God becomes incoherent, and this proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that NO supernatural entity/force has/will ever exist.

But then again, in another thread you said you think ice isn't water, so maybe you're thinking is just not rational enough...


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the_avenging_bucket wrote:
David, I cannot understand why you are so closed-minded to the truth...
Why don't you try, just for once, to consider both sides?
Open your heart and accept that Jesus never existed- then you will see that the whole idea of God becomes incoherent, and this proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that NO supernatural entity/force has/will ever exist.

The problem with me is that I need to accept something in my head before I accept something in my heart. It's just the way I am. I would never have converted if all I had were arguments from Christians that were along those lines, so arguments along those lines certainly aren't going to deconvert me, either.

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But then again, in another thread you said you think ice isn't water, so maybe you're thinking is just not rational enough...

No, I said that the question "Is ice water?" can be interpreted more than one way, and a "yes" or "no" answer depends on which way we're interpreting it.

David


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KingDavid8 wrote:

The problem with me is that I need to accept something in my head before I accept something in my heart.

I thought that is what atheists do?

And here you show that you have NOT accepted it in your head:

kingdavid wrote:

But that's not going to persuade someone like me who believes that it's possible (though not certain, I'll agree) that God exists


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The problem with me is that I need to accept something in my head before I accept something in my heart.

I would say from a medical standpoint that it would be a significant problem if your heart were capable of a conscious thought process that is usually reserved for the brain.

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applesforadam wrote:
Quote:
The problem with me is that I need to accept something in my head before I accept something in my heart.

I would say from a medical standpoint that it would be a significant problem if your heart were capable of a conscious thought process that is usually reserved for the brain.

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The problem with me is that I need to accept something in my head before I accept something in my heart. It's just the way I am.

That is competely irrational. I guess its a form of spirtual felling, right? Yea, thats not a spirtual felling in your heart, thats called cadric arrest.


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KingDavid8 wrote:

Then whoever or whatever revealed that to you is lying. Reject the evidence if you want, call the evidence unconvincing if you want, but don't pretend it doesn't exist.

My source cant be wrong. I was put in a position where I would come to know the truth, and to deny this truth would be just simply ignorant.

Quote:
Come to understand it how? Did someone tell this to you? Did someone present evidence for this? Or was it just a thought you had?

I told you it was revealed to me.

Quote:
If something was revealed to you that is contrary to the evidence, go ahead and believe it if you want.

It certainly isn't contrary to the evidence. Not a single person who lived with Jesus ever wrote about him, that absence of evidence is not evidence.

Quote:
And, by the way, I assume that you aren't being serious, but are just mocking those Christians who do the kind of thing that you are doing here - telling you what they feel God has revealed to them, and telling you that you simply MUST believe what they believe on faith alone, and not really giving you a good reason to do so (and often being surprised when their tactics don't work).

Don't ASSUME, you'll make an ASS out of U and ME.

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the_avenging_bucket wrote:

But then again, in another thread you said you think ice isn't water, so maybe you're thinking is just not rational enough...

It was just revealed to me that ice is water!

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Sapient wrote:
It was just revealed to me that ice is water!

How wise and great your words are! Through faith in the word of Sapient, the true nature of the world is revealed to us!

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You must have faith that god isn't real. You must believe in your heart that nothing exists outside nature, and that humanity is the only judge of morality! Laughing out loud

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the_avenging_bucket wrote:
KingDavid8 wrote:

The problem with me is that I need to accept something in my head before I accept something in my heart.

I thought that is what atheists do?

True. That's the way I was when I was an atheist, and it's the way I am now. The only difference is that I finally got around to contemplating the evidence fairly and honestly, and found it convincing. If you haven't found the evidence convincing, then don't believe in it. I only ask that you first contemplate the evidence fairly and honestly. I've seen a lot of people (though by no means everyone) twisting Christian beliefs on this board, and that's neither fair nor honest.

Quote:

And here you show that you have NOT accepted it in your head:
kingdavid wrote:

But that's not going to persuade someone like me who believes that it's possible (though not certain, I'll agree) that God exists

Yes, I have accepted it in my head. I don't need 100% irrefutable proof that someone is true in order to believe in it. Being logically convinced is enough for me. I'd say I'm about 99% convinced that something which we may call "God" exists, even if it's simply the deist version of God. That Jesus was (more likely than not) resurrected convinces me that God is something more than just the deist version.

If the only evidence I'd had for God or Jesus was people telling me that something had been revealed to them and therefore I needed to believe it also, never offering me a shred of evidence for their beliefs or even explaining how it was revealed to them, I would never have become a Christian. Some Christians do indeed do this, and I'm not surprised when people refuse to believe them.

David


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applesforadam wrote:
Quote:
The problem with me is that I need to accept something in my head before I accept something in my heart.

I would say from a medical standpoint that it would be a significant problem if your heart were capable of a conscious thought process that is usually reserved for the brain.

And I'm not talking from a medical standpoint.

David


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Sapient wrote:
KingDavid8 wrote:

Then whoever or whatever revealed that to you is lying. Reject the evidence if you want, call the evidence unconvincing if you want, but don't pretend it doesn't exist.

My source cant be wrong. I was put in a position where I would come to know the truth, and to deny this truth would be just simply ignorant.

Then have fun believing it, but don't be surprised that I don't.

Quote:

Quote:
Come to understand it how? Did someone tell this to you? Did someone present evidence for this? Or was it just a thought you had?

I told you it was revealed to me.

By what or who?

Quote:

Quote:
If something was revealed to you that is contrary to the evidence, go ahead and believe it if you want.

It certainly isn't contrary to the evidence. Not a single person who lived with Jesus ever wrote about him, that absence of evidence is not evidence.

Matthew and John knew Jesus and wrote about Him.

Quote:

Quote:
And, by the way, I assume that you aren't being serious, but are just mocking those Christians who do the kind of thing that you are doing here - telling you what they feel God has revealed to them, and telling you that you simply MUST believe what they believe on faith alone, and not really giving you a good reason to do so (and often being surprised when their tactics don't work).

Don't ASSUME, you'll make an ASS out of U and ME.

If I don't assume you aren't being serious, then I have to conclude that you are just as irrational as those Christians who use the same tactics. Really, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here.

David


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MattShizzle wrote:
You must have faith that god isn't real. You must believe in your heart that nothing exists outside nature, and that humanity is the only judge of morality! :D

I'll gladly have faith that this is so, if you give me enough evidence to persuade me. Heck, just a little evidence would be a nice start. Do you even have just a little?

David


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But who needs evidence when you have faith? After all, Christians have no (valid) evidence. Sure they make some fake evidence up, or count the bible as evidence, or count frogeries that were made centuries ago as evidence. If you don't believe that there is no god and Jesus is a myth, you simply don't have enough faith!

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And of course, you only need evidence to prove something exists. Without evidence for existance, a rational person does not believe something exists. After all, if I claimed I invented an engine that got 1,000 miles per gallon, and asked you to prove I didn't, most people would laugh. It is up to the person that claims something does exist to prove it.

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Quote:
True. That's the way I was when I was an atheist, and it's the way I am now. The only difference is that I finally got around to contemplating the evidence fairly and honestly, and found it convincing. If you haven't found the evidence convincing, then don't believe in it. I only ask that you first contemplate the evidence fairly and honestly.

What evidence?

Quote:
Matthew and John knew Jesus and wrote about Him.

Prove it. It's not evidence if you can't prove it, so prove that both these men knew a real Jesus and wrote about his real life the way it really was.

Wilson: "We were afraid that if you found out you solved a case with absolutely no medical evidence you'd think you were God." House: "God doesn't limp."


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Nick_Poling wrote:
Quote:
True. That's the way I was when I was an atheist, and it's the way I am now. The only difference is that I finally got around to contemplating the evidence fairly and honestly, and found it convincing. If you haven't found the evidence convincing, then don't believe in it. I only ask that you first contemplate the evidence fairly and honestly.

What evidence?

It's the evidence I've already been talking about. I really don't want to start the whole conversation over again this far into it.

Quote:

Quote:
Matthew and John knew Jesus and wrote about Him.

Prove it. It's not evidence if you can't prove it, so prove that both these men knew a real Jesus and wrote about his real life the way it really was.

I can't "prove" they wrote it any more than I can "prove" that Stephen King wrote "The Shining", but without significant reason to doubt a given authorship credit, it's most rational to believe that it is correct.

As I stated earlier, when every single copy of a text is credited to the same author, historians assume that the authorship credit is correct, unless there is some kind of evidence to the contrary. If there is evidence suggesting they didn't write it (such as copies credited to different authors, evidence that the texts were written before or after their lives, evidence that people from around that time questioned the authorship credits, or anything else), please feel free to provide it. As it is, the evidence consistently and overwhelmingly supports the authorship credits.

If you don't believe they wrote their Gospels, that's fine. But unless you have good reason to doubt their authorships, then it's nothing more than belief for the sake of belief, and certainly won't sway those who have considered the evidence and find the authorship credits convincing.

David


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No one is doubting that matthew or john actually wrote the text. What is being said is that what evidence do you have that would lend you to believe matthew and john were correct? 2000 years from now do you really think we're going to be able to look at the story of paul bunyan and be able to say with 100% certainty that he did not exist? Sure, we can point to historical record and say "well no one mentioned actually meeting this giant man and his blue ox around the time he was asserted to have lived," or "the laws of science state that no such person would be possible," but according to you that is not enough evidence to disprove his existance because apparently you can't use the laws of science to disprove the notion that someone turned water into wine or any other "miracle" he was claimed to have performed and by your argument, we could use the story of paul bunyan itself as proof that he actually lived. It really is on the part of the person making the positive claim that jesus is who the bible claims to say he is (although the bible itself seems to refer to him both as real and mythical) and that he actually existed.

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Actually plenty of us doubt Matthew and John wrote the text - these texts were written MANY years after Jesus supposedly lived, and the names were chosen arbitrarily. Apparently, even Bible scholars don't actually believe the texts were written by the actual apostles (some of whom were almost certainly illiterate!) Of course, why wouldn't Jesus have written it himself? An omniscient god certainly wouldn't be illiterate! Laughing out loud

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KingDavid8 wrote:

Yes, actually. That our universe is in such a state or order that life is not only possible, but apparently inevitable - and that life can exist and thrive for billions of years without being swallowed up by the chaos we would expect in a universe that was created by random means, suggests (though by no means proves) that whatever force created the universe was purposeful. Had random, unguided forces created the universe, I find it very unlikely (though not impossible) that we'd be here for as long as we have been.

David

Please go read a science book.

The universe doesn't fit itself to life, but rather life fits itself to the universe. If the universe were in a different state, it by no means rules out life, however it may rule out our form of life.

in simpler terms, "we are here because of the universe" not "the universe is here because of us"

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I'll never understand the argument that the universe follows no form or function and simply does whatever it feels like doing. The universe is governed by the law of science, plain and simple. To accept that and persist in saying that the universe is random is a simple error in logic (A equals A and A does not equal A). It's that backwards mentality that tells supporters of the design argument for a god that because there seems to be a method to the workings of the universe, it implies an intelligent designer. It does not imply an intelligent designer, it just implies that the way the world works follows some system, nothing more, nothing less. To assume that there had to be someone there to turn the light switch on or there had to be a beginning to everything is an unfounded claim by theists (some non-theists claim the same thing) that really carries no weight when your only real evidence to directly suggest it is that I can't DISprove it. I believe Sapient has already stated the end result of making assumptions (I'll give you a hint, it has something to do with ass).

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Sapient wrote:
the_avenging_bucket wrote:

But then again, in another thread you said you think ice isn't water, so maybe you're thinking is just not rational enough...

It was just revealed to me that ice is water!

Even though I have limited and unreliable evidence on such an advanced subject as the solidification of water, and even though my fallible human reasoning is unable to point me in the right direction, I trust in Sapient, prophet of the truth, to whom the truth has been revealed.
Thankyou for taking this great burden from my mind. I will now rest assured in the knowledge that ice is indeed water.
And David, Brother, I will pray for you so that you will also find the truth in your heart . . .

In the great boundless love of reason...
Bucket.


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YES! Prayer cannot be held to such silly prerequisites as to a specific god. Prayer transcends the idea of god. The revealed truth shows us the way, and we should all pray for the truth to be revealed to the non-believers. Prayer to whom you ask? Prayer does not answer to god! Those who claim we need a trifle thing such as a god to pray to do not understand that prayer to god is pointless, it is prayer to truth revealed that is the Way! Faith in the power of prayer is all we need to be granted its merciful and awe-inspiring benefits!

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It was just revealed to me that we should now start praying to water. We have solid evidence that without water we wouldn't exist. This evidence surpasses any evidence we have for god, and because of this, we must pray to it, not a god.

In waters name we pray...

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Say it with me now....

"Dear Water, I confess that I am a water drinker and am sorry for all the environmental destruction I've caused. I believe that your Son, Watery Christ, died on a cross for my water indiscretions. Please forgive me and I invite you, Water, to come into my heart (even though my heart is already comprised partly of water) and life as Lord and Savior. I commit and trust my life to you. Please give me the water to be what you want me to be and the water to do what you want me to do. Thank you for dying for my sins, for your free pardon, for your gift of life, and for hearing and answering prayer. Aqua!"

Yes, I know we don't have evidence for Watery Christ, but it was just revealed to me that he existed about 60 years ago.

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NO! I DENY YOUR WATERY CHRIST! For it was revealed to ME that the Watery Christ shall be delivered to mankind to save us from our illogical ways in a year that is comprised of all prime numbers. To speak of any other Watery Christ is to worship false idols and is not the true way of the Water. I deem you Sapient and any and all followers of YOUR FALSE WATERY CHRIST HERETICS unless you repent in your ways!

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Was it not the prophet Carlin who hath sayeth that prayer unto christian God, and prayer unto the Sun, bringer of light and life, doth yieldeth the same resulting rate of prayers being answered, about 50%? In fact, I prayed to the internet during a difficult period of my life, and the answers the INTERNET provideth, giveth hope and salvation!!! Ask Wiki and you shall receiveth wisdom in rich abundance!!!!

I agree that pray to the Holy Trinity we must ... the Water, the Ice, and the Holy Gas....


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the_avenging_bucket wrote:
I agree that pray to the Holy Trinity we must ... the Water, the Ice, and the Holy Gas....

Not to be confused with the Unholy Gas that results from the worshipping of the false gods of frijoles.

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Sapient wrote:
It was just revealed to me that we should now start praying to water. We have solid evidence that without water we wouldn't exist. This evidence surpasses any evidence we have for god, and because of this, we must pray to it, not a god.

In waters name we pray...

ahem... http://www.dhmo.org

I deny your watery deity!

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Ha, even though this is such a cheesy bit, my AP chem teacher in high school always brought up the "dihydrogen monoxide" line when referring to water. She was off the wall, but she left an endearing mark in my memory in reference to the term.

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And as a side note, this was one of the funniest moments on any Penn and Teller's Bullshit shows, one of the ones about the environment where they had a petition against dihydrogen monoxide at an environment rally and got a ton of supporters. Just goes to show the general level of acceptable ignorance in society :roll:

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a few years ago, I posted some DHMO fliers at work.

that was priceless.. I was thinking about doing it again, but I don't know how well it would be taken at my current job Eye-wink

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I remember hearing some kids got in trouble a few years back for leaving flyers warning people their water could be contaminated with DHMO at peoples doors. It said how many people died because of it a year (the # of drownings.) Laughing out loud

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