What would convince you of a God(s)'s existance

Cpt_pineapple
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What would convince you of a God(s)'s existance

You keep asking for proof of a God, what type of proof would be required?

 

Notice how I said 'a God(s)'s' not neccesarly the Christian God.


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NinjaTux wrote: Wishkah

NinjaTux wrote:

Wishkah says you're her Hiro....now we just have to get you a sword...[I took license with the spelling...]

Awww, you guys are great!! I am so glad you two are here, you both fit very well with our community.

On a side note... True story, I worked with a "Hiro" up until about a year ago when he went back to Japan. I needed a translator when I talked to him. Our best line of communication was email, and "even dat not work so well". He always wrote blister as "brister". LOL


Cpt_pineapple
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NinjaTux rephrase

NinjaTux wrote:

 

rephrase please: What if science was wrong in 'right' ways so to speak? What if everything did fall into a neat little explanition without the requirement of God and we just haven't seen it yet?

Okay how do I say this? What if Quantum physics simply collapse into a neat explanition of the creation of the Universe and how God was not required?

 

{edit:fixed tags}


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BGH wrote: On a side

BGH wrote:

On a side note... True story, I worked with a "Hiro" up until about a year ago when he went back to Japan. I needed a translator when I talked to him. Our best line of communication was email, and "even dat not work so well". He always wrote blister as "brister". LOL

I love Engrish (which by the way if you haven't already check out Engrish.com...not sure how to add a link yet..)

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No Gods, Know Peace.


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Cpt_pineapple wrote: Okay

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Okay how do I say this? What if Quantum physics simply collapse into a neat explanition of the creation of the Universe and how God was not required?

Ummm...Good...I don't really understand why you're asking me a what if that I already assume to be true.  The world would continue, and we would still have to come on sites like this and have these discussions.  The rephrase cleared up the question, now I just don't know what answer (other than an obvious one) your looking for.  It would be like asking you what you would do if god proved to you he existed..... 

No Gods, Know Peace.


Cpt_pineapple
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NinjaTux

NinjaTux wrote:

 

Ummm...Good...I don't really understand why you're asking me a what if that I already assume to be true.  The world would continue, and we would still have to come on sites like this and have these discussions.  The rephrase cleared up the question, now I just don't know what answer (other than an obvious one) your looking for.  It would be like asking you what you would do if god proved to you he existed..... 

 

the rephrase wasn't a question. It was an answer to a question. I answered in the form of a question because that's what they do on jeopardy and those people are pretty smart. 


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BGH wrote: Cpt_pineapple

BGH wrote:
Cpt_pineapple wrote:

You keep asking for proof of a God, what type of proof would be required?

Notice how I said 'a God(s)'s' not neccesarly the Christian God.

I have a new answer... a neverending taco.

I start eating and never finish, come back two days later more taco, freshness in every bite. That would convince me of god. Can he make a good flour tortilla? What am I saying, he is omnimax, he can do anything.

I second that.  Can I get infinite guac on mine?  and none of that watery, mild salsa.  Man, what's the damn point 

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Cpt_pineapple

[edit delete post: i don't know...]


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Cpt_pineapple wrote:   the

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
 

the rephrase wasn't a question. It was an answer to a question. I answered in the form of a question because that's what they do on jeopardy and those people are pretty smart.

OHHHH....OK....I was really confused there for a good second... 

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zarathustra wrote: Temper

zarathustra wrote:

Temper Mental wrote:
By the way, pineapple is my favorite fruit.

And remember, pineapple is the christian's horror movie

That movie is hilarious.  Kinda stupid why a person would use a banana as an argument anyways.

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Let us pray that all the hungry children in the world will be fed and peace be spread throughout the entire world. Amen.
*Incoherent speaking*
What do you mean it is not your will to feed the children of the world?!


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Temper Mental

Temper Mental wrote:
zarathustra wrote:

Temper Mental wrote:
By the way, pineapple is my favorite fruit.

And remember, pineapple is the christian's horror movie.

That movie is hilarious. Kinda stupid why a person would use a banana as an argument anyways.

An artichoke's a pain even with the assistance of a knife....

 

To the topic at hand - I would need to be a witness to all the impossible things said to have happened in any given relgious text to believe in its respective religion. This would require a god to (in a verifiable manner) take me back in time and allow me to witness all these things while confirming them (e.g. continually checking on Jesus all three days he was dead and watch as life magically returns to him). I don't suppose this is an unreasonable request for an all-powerful deity to perform.

Guess I'm just not convinced by the amount of water in some fleece (Judges 6:37) Smiling

Why yes, I can believe it's not butter!


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Cpt_pineapple wrote: You

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

You keep asking for proof of a God, what type of proof would be required?

A necessary being would be axiomatic, any attempt to deny its 'existence' would lead to internal contradiction.

So a god 'defended' through retortion' would be the only fitting proof.

And 'god' is not defended through retortion....

 

"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'


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cpt, I think your response

cpt, I think your response to me has been pretty well worked over, but I'll hit the important points again, and maybe add a couple.

Quote:
I wouldn't consider it a fallacy per say.

It's been properly pointed out that your opinion on the matter is completely irrelevant. It is a logical fallacy, and black holes do exist. We can prove both. You can't prove god.

Quote:
Allah, Jehovah, whatever have one thing in common. God. I believe while these are different names for God and they all have their own interputations of God they share one common belive:God.

Basically to answer your question as to which one: All of them.

No good.

Two things that are contradictory cannot both exist. Allah and Jehovah both say they are the only god. Therefore, either 1) One or both of them don't exist, 2) Both exist and are either lying or deluded, 3) One exists, but not the other, and some other number of gods also exist, and the one that exists is deluded or lying. In any case, your only possibility is that 1) it's not "all gods are the same god" or 2) "god is either lying or deluded" -- in which case, you can't believe anything he says, so you might as well ignore him.

Quote:
Ask yourself: If something did happen would you say "I believe in God now" or "There MUST be a logical explanation"?

I've already answered that. If something completely illogical happened, and god left an undeniable calling card (like the big banner in the sky while bombs exploded into flowers) I'd be happy to believe in him.

Quote:
Why don't you disbelieve probability waves or other dimensions because it is 'nonsensical'?

There's a difference between nonsensical and difficult to understand. God is nonsensical, therefore I do not believe. Probability waves are difficult to understand, but I have empirical evidence that people who do understand them can demonstrate their existence.

Quote:

If God came down to me and said: "I don't exist."

Seriously maybe I just might as I expand my education.

Yeah, I would start with logic. Even more important, I'd work on asking yourself why you want so badly to believe in a god. You might not like the answer, but it might set you free anyway.

Quote:
Well as people say science is not 100%. While I use this excuse, it may blow up in my face. What if science was wrong in 'right' ways so to speak? What if everything did fall into a neat little explanition without the requirement of God and we just haven't seen it yet?

Yep. It'll blow up on you. Science is in the business of falsification. It works towards the truth by eliminating hypotheses. Sounds backwards, but that's what it does. Sometimes scientists stumble onto a correct conclusion but their methodology was flawed. Sometimes we find paint thinner when we were looking for lighter fluid. Again, I must ask you why uncertainty is such a bogey man for you. Would the world be that scary if you didn't have certain knowledge of god? From the other side, I can tell you, it's not that bad.

Quote:
Yes I know and believe in evolution. As for logical equation., no I have not.

Good. I would highly recommend looking over some logic texts. Here's a handy link to get you started on common concepts and also common fallacies, but I wouldn't advise stopping there. Logic isn't just for becoming an atheist. Your whole life works better if you can spot fallacious arguments!

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html

 

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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For me it'd have to be

For me it'd have to be nothing short of her or him or them showing themselves and in a snap ridding the world of all diseases.......that's a start -_o.

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Quote:There's a

Quote:

There's a difference between nonsensical and difficult to understand. God is nonsensical, therefore I do not believe. Probability waves are difficult to understand, but I have empirical evidence that people who do understand them can demonstrate their existence.

For those who are not shocked when they first come across quantum theory cannot possibly have understood it.

  • Niels Bohr, quoted in Heisenberg, Werner (1971). Physics and Beyond, 206, New York: Harper and Row.

Quote:

Yeah, I would start with logic. Even more important, I'd work on asking yourself why you want so badly to believe in a god. You might not like the answer, but it might set you free anyway.

I used to be in math so I threw logic out the window a long time ago >_>

Quote:

Again, I must ask you why uncertainty is such a bogey man for you. Would the world be that scary if you didn't have certain knowledge of god? From the other side, I can tell you, it's not that bad.

Uncertianty is the "boogy-man" fo me and many other people because humans are curious creatures. I don't like something being unknown, and I assume you also have a thirst for knowledge as well do you not? You seem like an intelligent person, don't you want to unravel the mysteries of the universe? 

 

[edit:added some points]


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To answer the question: It

To answer the question: It would depend on the deity. If I had an experience like Arjuna supposedly did, for example, I'd probably believe Hinduism. If someone else did, and produced real evidence of it, I'd buy it. For christianity...well, there's not much chance here, as the book of it is full of blatant lies. First, I'd need some admittance of this. Then, we'd have to see what was true, assuming any of it is. Then, I would need evidence of this remaining "true" part being true. And Judaism would also have to be proven right. For all other Abrahamic religions, Judaism and all other previous Abrahamic religions would have to be proven right first, then we'd have to look at it. 

Avecrien wrote:

Can I hijack this a little? Would any of you atheists, if witness to a cosmic magical figure landing on earth that performed miracles and claimed to be god or some agent of it, believe it?
Many christian groups would see the first confirmation of the divine and run screaming about the anti-christ. Others would clamor over finally being vindicated. Honestly, they'd probably spend more time fighting with each other than paying it attention, unless it intervened.
(but maybe its an alien from one of those newfound planets taking advantage of our superstition!)

Not so much of a request for serious reply, just musing.

I'd believe it existed. Whether or not it was an alien or the anti-christ or what, I'd have to see then. However, there is a chance I'd worship it. There's an equally great chance I'd fight it.

P.S. why does this guy not have a "theist" title? 

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
Some good points here but let me say this:

Allah, Jehovah, whatever have one thing in common. God. I believe while these are different names for God and they all have their own interputations of God they share one common belive:God.

Basically to answer your question as to which one: All of them.

They all are, in fact, the same Abrahamic god. Now, what about the Hindu god, which many Hindus believe is also the Abrahamic god? What about the various pagan, indiginous, or traditional deities?


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OK, time to catch up on a

OK, time to catch up on a few responses. 

Quote:
For those who are not shocked when they first come across quantum theory cannot possibly have understood it.

...and you are saying that because...? Would it be, perhaps, your own conditions and limitations, combined with a bit of hasty generalization?

Quote:
Uncertianty is the "boogy-man" fo me and many other people because humans are curious creatures. I don't like something being unknown, and I assume you also have a thirst for knowledge as well do you not? You seem like an intelligent person, don't you want to unravel the mysteries of the universe?

I'm sorry, perhaps I didn't get it right... You are telling us that you are a curious man, yet when a question is asked, to which there is yet no answer, you prefer to simply plug in the dummy and call it quits. HOW will that help us unravel the mysteries of the Universe EXACTLY ?

I am amazed by how easy people are convinced into believing something that does precisely the opposite of what that person thinks it says.

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Rigor_OMortis

Rigor_OMortis wrote:

 

...and you are saying that because...? Would it be, perhaps, your own conditions and limitations, combined with a bit of hasty generalization?

 

 

Because Quantum seemed 'irrational' and 'illogical' when it was first proposed. Even Einstein had doubts.

 

Quote:

I'm sorry, perhaps I didn't get it right... You are telling us that you are a curious man, yet when a question is asked, to which there is yet no answer, you prefer to simply plug in the dummy and call it quits. HOW will that help us unravel the mysteries of the Universe EXACTLY ?

I am amazed by how easy people are convinced into believing something that does precisely the opposite of what that person thinks it says.

 

I would reccomend reading "Parallel World" By Dr. Michio Kaku. I feel he does a good job of explaining the more we explore, the more questions arise.


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Cpt_pineapple wrote: I

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
I would reccomend reading "Parallel World" By Dr. Michio Kaku. I feel he does a good job of explaining the more we explore, the more questions arise.

New questions are great, and pursuing them is worthwhile, but the question that you just dodged was asking, how does adhering to ancient dogmatic answers help answer any questions, or even find new questions of scientific interest? How is dogma helpful at all? Is your craving for knowledge really satiated by delusions, or do you demand real serious answers?

It's only the fairy tales they believe.


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rexlunae wrote:  New

rexlunae wrote:

 New questions are great, and pursuing them is worthwhile, but the question that you just dodged was asking, how does adhering to ancient dogmatic answers help answer any questions, or even find new questions of scientific interest? How is dogma helpful at all? Is your craving for knowledge really satiated by delusions, or do you demand real serious answers?

I never said I supported any dogma of church.

I'm all open to using science. I want to "Read the mind of God" As Einstein (I think) put it.


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Nothing would convince me

Nothing would convince me


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Regardless of the

Regardless of the possibility of a few of the examples given here being enough, my general answer to this question is quite simple.

I don't know what it would take. But I'd know it when I encountered it.

Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Why is this a pressing

Why is this a pressing question? It isn't. There have been many myths throughout history we have no trouble today disregarding. Popularity and tradition are all that set today's practiced religions apart from those we regard as fiction. If we didn't have practicing Christians and Jews and Muslims nipping at our heels to recognize their fables, would we entertain the proposition that the natural world needs a superfluous explanation? That the subverting of one's faculties (faith) is a high virtue? I read a quote today (I don't recall where) from another poster, and he said it's not an interesting question. I agree. The question can't even justifiably be entertained.


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Cpt_pineapple

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

 

 

Because Quantum seemed 'irrational' and 'illogical' when it was first proposed.

Only if one holds to classical physics as a dogma.

It was empirical evidence and logic that led to quantum theory. 

 

Quote:
 

Even Einstein had doubts.

Indeed, but it was because he was dogmatic in insisting that the universe had to be determined. He and Neils Bohr (you cited him above) had a series of discussions over quantum theory, with Einstein attempting to falsify it, and Bohr defending it. In each case, Bohr won the argument. 

 

"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'


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Who else is getting sick of

Who else is getting sick of people using Eistein as a person to prove a point? He was a great man, a smart man, but not the greatest, or the smartest. He was not right about everything, we refined a lot of his theories and they have changed.

"When I die I shall be content to vanish into nothingness.... No show, however good, could conceivably be good forever.... I do not believe in immortality, and have no desire for it." ~H.L. Mencken

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James Cizuz wrote: Who else

James Cizuz wrote:
Who else is getting sick of people using Eistein as a person to prove a point? He was a great man, a smart man, but not the greatest, or the smartest. He was not right about everything, we refined a lot of his theories and they have changed.

Isn't that what theist do?  Look at someone else's work and agree with it.

Sounds made up...
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Magus wrote: James Cizuz

Magus wrote:

James Cizuz wrote:
Who else is getting sick of people using Eistein as a person to prove a point? He was a great man, a smart man, but not the greatest, or the smartest. He was not right about everything, we refined a lot of his theories and they have changed.

Isn't that what theist do? Look at someone else's work and agree with it.

Yeah I know. Eistein was great. He may have believed in a god(even though many letters of his said he did not) and may of only said he believed out of fear. He still could of believed in god, but who cares? Does every smart logical person have to come to the conclusion of no god? Especially at early stages of filling the gaps.

 

If Eistein did believe in god, fine, does it mean your right because you follow what Eistein believed? No. It makes you right if you follow what he proved, not believed. 

"When I die I shall be content to vanish into nothingness.... No show, however good, could conceivably be good forever.... I do not believe in immortality, and have no desire for it." ~H.L. Mencken

Thank god i'm a atheist!


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James Cizuz wrote:   Yeah

James Cizuz wrote:

 

Yeah I know. Eistein was great. He may have believed in a god(even though many letters of his said he did not) and may of only said he believed out of fear. He still could of believed in god, but who cares? Does every smart logical person have to come to the conclusion of no god? Especially at early stages of filling the gaps.

 

If Eistein did believe in god, fine, does it mean your right because you follow what Eistein believed? No. It makes you right if you follow what he proved, not believed. 

 

I'm not using the quotes in that context. What I was trying to say is the universe is a big complicated thing. We will (may?) never know everything.


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James Cizuz wrote:   If

James Cizuz wrote:

 

If Eistein did believe in god, fine, does it mean your right because you follow what Eistein believed? No. It makes you right if you follow what he proved, not believed.

Well put. There's a common assumption that if a smart person believes something, that he came to that belief rationally. But that's nonsense - most every smart person in history was raised like nearly everyone else: into a religion, either through family inculcation, or social inculturation.

We all were raised with a host of beliefs that we didn't come to hold through rational means... this is entirely normal. Smart people experience it as well.

Yet you see christians make the argument "Newton was a christain, etc.".......  but none of them ever really bother to examine  just how most people come to religion...

If they did, they'd have to come face to face with the facts that a person's religion is inculcated in infanthood, its based on indoctrination, not reason. Its culture bound, its geographically based....

But theists don't want to admit that... they love the fantasy of believing that they came to their religions as adults, and through reason... so they naturally interpret "smart theists" as people who have also come to religion through reason....

I think that's the, wishful, fallacious thinking behind this common error.... 

"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'