Are you a true Christian?

MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

I made this test on OKCupid a while back. See what you really know about the Bible!

http://www.okcupid.com/tests/take?testid=7170693911873259163

:twisted:

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

By our intellect. So anything that is illegal is definitely immoral? So in the mid 19th century helping a slave escape from slavery was immoral? It was definitely illegal! No, public nudity is illegal because most Americans, unfortunately, subscribe to the irrational precept of Christianity, and its disgustingly intolerant dogma frowns on nudity. Not that nudity is in any way harmful! :roll:

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


JesusSaves
Theist
Posts: 108
Joined: 2006-06-25
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

MattShizzle wrote:
By our intellect. So anything that is illegal is definitely immoral? So in the mid 19th century helping a slave escape from slavery was immoral? It was definitely illegal! No, public nudity is illegal because most Americans, unfortunately, subscribe to the irrational precept of Christianity, and its disgustingly intolerant dogma frowns on nudity. Not that nudity is in any way harmful! :roll:

but agian who set the standards of that being wrong? how do you sense that it is disustingly intolerant?

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


HealingBlight
HealingBlight's picture
Posts: 256
Joined: 2006-04-13
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

MattShizzle wrote:
Not that nudity is in any way harmful! :roll:

But at least there is less skid marks on public transport and cinemas because of pants. Some of that shit is practical! Smiling
(err, shit as in cloths, not as in the skid marks)

-----------------------
I'll get back to you when I think of something worthwhile to say.


HeliosOfTheSun
Posts: 42
Joined: 2006-07-04
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

JesusSaves wrote:
Quote:
LMFAO. Thats pretty funny. And he's definely right, stay on subject. God(if he did exist) he would have created EVERYTHING. As GOD he made EVEYTHING. The word "evil" can be tossed around for what it means.

so how do you judge what is evil and what isn't evil? who or what gave you that incite to know?

I think you need to read where it says "EVIL CAN BE TOSSED AROUND FOR WHAT IT MEANS" Meaning, I didnt say what it means. Anything can be evil, its based upon who is using it. JS probulary thinks Satan is evil. Where I think preists are evil.


GrimJesta
GrimJesta's picture
Posts: 152
Joined: 2006-06-21
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

Ok, I admit it. I'm a true Christian. It's why I always disagree with LeftofLarry.

Eye-wink

Not that I know what I'd have to do to be a true Christian, but I assure you that the punk scene is more like Jesus than the churches are.

-=Grim=-

No Nyarlathotep, Know Peace.
Know Nyarlathotep, No Peace.


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7530
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

GrimJesta wrote:

Not that I know what I'd have to do to be a true Christian, but I assure you that the punk scene is more like Jesus than the churches are.

The closest thing I know of to true Christians is the Phelps family.

www.godhatesfags.com

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


KingDavid8
Theist
Posts: 113
Joined: 2006-07-07
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

Sapient wrote:
KingDavid8 wrote:

It clearly explains why God created us knowing the evil we'd commit, yet is not ultimately responsible for all evil.

And that my friend is a complete dodge of reality. Any rational person can see that.

Blaming God for the mistakes people make is irrational. You do know what "free will" means, right?

Quote:

Quote:
That's why God gave us the gift of free will, and since we have free will, the buck stops with US!

The buck doesn't stop with us. That is just ridiculous. That dodge of reality, is what seperates you from honest and rational people.

You don't think people are responsible for what they do? As long as we have free will, we are responsible for our own actions, whether or not God created us. Believe me, I'd LOVE to be able to blame someone else for the mistakes I've made in my life. I'd LOVE to be able to claim that I'm not responsible for my actions, but to instead shirk off all responsibility on someone else. But being an honest, rational person, I can't.

Quote:
Quote:

How does that not respond to your statement that God is responsible for our actions?

It answers it, just exactly as I would expect a dishonest person to answer it. Thanks for the answer.

So you hold a very unique belief about the Bible that is not supported by the Bible and not held by anyone who believes in the Bible (that I'm aware of), yet I'M the one being dishonest. Yeah, makes perfect sense.

David


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7530
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

KingDavid8 wrote:
Sapient wrote:
KingDavid8 wrote:

It clearly explains why God created us knowing the evil we'd commit, yet is not ultimately responsible for all evil.

And that my friend is a complete dodge of reality. Any rational person can see that.

Blaming God for the mistakes people make is irrational. You do know what "free will" means, right?

First off I didn't say I blame god, however he is to blame for the mistakes people make. You have heard of omniscience right? You do know what the word "omnipotence" means right?

Quote:

You don't think people are responsible for what they do?

When did I say that? I didn't. Stop dodging reality. The buck starts at people it ends at God. People are still responsible, ultimately God is responsible for all evil, WAKE UP!

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


Darl
Posts: 31
Joined: 2006-07-12
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

See, you have a major flaw in your argument for free will. The christian God is supposed to be omnicient and omnipotent(Which, in and of itself is a major paradox that I won't get into here), but he gave us free will? Now an omnicient god can see everything before, past and future. That means that the future is predetermined, which means our lives are following a set path no matter what we do, which means free will does NOT exist. Either you have to get rid of the free will or the omnicient, omnipotent God. There's no middle ground.


KingDavid8
Theist
Posts: 113
Joined: 2006-07-07
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

Sapient wrote:
KingDavid8 wrote:

Blaming God for the mistakes people make is irrational. You do know what "free will" means, right?

First off I didn't say I blame god, however he is to blame for the mistakes people make. You have heard of omniscience right? You do know what the word "omnipotence" means right?

Yes, omniscience means knowing all, and omnipotence means being all-powerful (though it doesn't mean that you actually do all things, just that you're able to). And being able to do all things means being able to create beings that are totally responsible for their own actions, which is what God did.

Quote:
Quote:

You don't think people are responsible for what they do?

When did I say that? I didn't. Stop dodging reality. The buck starts at people it ends at God. People are still responsible, ultimately God is responsible for all evil, WAKE UP!

No, people are responsible for the evil they do, and God is not. If I said that God is ultimately responsible for the evil I have done, even though God gave me free will, then I am putting the blame where it doesn't belong. If God didn't give me free will, but programmed me to do everything that I do, or otherwise urged me to do wrong, then God would be ultimately responsible for the evil I do. The idea that God is ultimately responsible for the evil we do is not reflected in the Bible or in mainstream Christianity. You don't see Bible passages saying to pass the buck to God, or hear Sunday-morning preachers telling this to their congregation. The only ones you hear blaming God for man's evil are those who don't believe in Him. Why is that?

David


KingDavid8
Theist
Posts: 113
Joined: 2006-07-07
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

Darl wrote:
See, you have a major flaw in your argument for free will. The christian God is supposed to be omnicient and omnipotent(Which, in and of itself is a major paradox that I won't get into here), but he gave us free will? Now an omnicient god can see everything before, past and future. That means that the future is predetermined, which means our lives are following a set path no matter what we do, which means free will does NOT exist. Either you have to get rid of the free will or the omnicient, omnipotent God. There's no middle ground.

No, the future is not pre-determined. God can see what we are going to do, but what He sees that we will do is based on what we will later choose to do. For example, let's say that tomorrow I'm going to choose whether to watch TV or read a book. Yes, God knows, right now, which one I'm going to choose. If I choose to watch TV tomorrow, then God already knows that I'm going to choose to watch TV. But that doesn't mean that my watching TV is pre-determined. I could still choose to read a book tomorrow, in which case God already knows that I'm going to choose to read a book. What God knows I'm going to do tomorrow is based on the choice that I will make tomorrow. God is just able to "fast forward" and see which one it will end up being. So we still have free will, it's just that God knows what we will do with our free will. Knowing is not controlling.

David


JesusSaves
Theist
Posts: 108
Joined: 2006-06-25
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

Quote:
I think you need to read where it says "EVIL CAN BE TOSSED AROUND FOR WHAT IT MEANS" Meaning, I didnt say what it means. Anything can be evil, its based upon who is using it. JS probulary thinks Satan is evil. Where I think preists are evil.

But Matt said that evil is anything harmful to humans. and I want to know where that is coming from. is it what he learned from his parents or what?

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


the_avenging_bucket
the_avenging_bucket's picture
Posts: 184
Joined: 2006-06-17
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

JesusSaves wrote:
Quote:
I think you need to read where it says "EVIL CAN BE TOSSED AROUND FOR WHAT IT MEANS" Meaning, I didnt say what it means. Anything can be evil, its based upon who is using it. JS probulary thinks Satan is evil. Where I think preists are evil.

But Matt said that evil is anything harmful to humans. and I want to know where that is coming from. is it what he learned from his parents or what?

Unlike yourself, Matt indulges in the sinfull pastime of THINKING...
You might want to try it sometime... just remember to pray for forgiveness afterwards...


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7530
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

KingDavid8 wrote:
Sapient wrote:
KingDavid8 wrote:

Blaming God for the mistakes people make is irrational. You do know what "free will" means, right?

First off I didn't say I blame god, however he is to blame for the mistakes people make. You have heard of omniscience right? You do know what the word "omnipotence" means right?

Yes, omniscience means knowing all, and omnipotence means being all-powerful (though it doesn't mean that you actually do all things, just that you're able to). And being able to do all things means being able to create beings that are totally responsible for their own actions, which is what God did.

Right. He created those beings in that way knowing all of the evil they would commit, and did nothing to stop it. It's his flawed plan, his flawed human design, and his responsibilty for evil.

Game set match, every fucking time.

Quote:

No, people are responsible for the evil they do, and God is not.

Who created people knowing the evil they'd commit?

Who had the power to make us differently without affecting our free will?

Answer to both: GOD. God is responsible.

Keep denying reality, you look like a fucking retard.

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


JesusSaves
Theist
Posts: 108
Joined: 2006-06-25
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

do you really have to do evil for it to really being evil? or can you also have 2 good choices?


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7530
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

JesusSaves wrote:
do you really have to do evil for it to really being evil? or can you also have 2 good choices?

WTF?

You can have two good choices, two bad choices, three bad choices, on and on... what does this have to do with God being ultimately responsible for all of the evil in the world? Red Herring non sequitor much?

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


JesusSaves
Theist
Posts: 108
Joined: 2006-06-25
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

Quote:
You can have two good choices, two bad choices, three bad choices, on and on... what does this have to do with God being ultimately responsible for all of the evil in the world? Red Herring non sequitor much?

Evil by what I am interpretting it to meaning. is not just being evil. but is something that can also be good but without God in the process of it.

adolf hitler, do you think, what he did to the jews, knew it was wrong?

but yet still thought it was good?

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7530
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

JesusSaves wrote:
Quote:
You can have two good choices, two bad choices, three bad choices, on and on... what does this have to do with God being ultimately responsible for all of the evil in the world? Red Herring non sequitor much?

Evil by what I am interpretting it to meaning. is not just being evil. but is something that can also be good but without God in the process of it.

adolf hitler, do you think, what he did to the jews, knew it was wrong?

but yet still thought it was good?

It doesn't matter, God is ultimately responsible for having the power to have stopped Adolf Hitler from coming into existence without affecting the unborn life of Adolf Hitler. God also knew exactly what Hitler would do, and must've wanted Hitler to do it. Additionally God is ultimately responsible for the attrocities of Hitler.

You're arguing a non-sequitor point.

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


JesusSaves
Theist
Posts: 108
Joined: 2006-06-25
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

Quote:
It doesn't matter, God is ultimately responsible for having the power to have stopped Adolf Hitler from coming into existence without affecting the unborn life of Adolf Hitler. God also knew exactly what Hitler would do, and must've wanted Hitler to do it. Additionally God is ultimately responsible for the attrocities of Hitler.

hows that when infact Evil is the absents of God in mans hearts. like darkness is the absents of light we just seperated the meaning of the two words to help describe what we see.

If God stopped Adolf Hitler from being born then He would have been contradicting the meaning of free will.

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7530
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

JesusSaves wrote:
Quote:
It doesn't matter, God is ultimately responsible for having the power to have stopped Adolf Hitler from coming into existence without affecting the unborn life of Adolf Hitler. God also knew exactly what Hitler would do, and must've wanted Hitler to do it. Additionally God is ultimately responsible for the attrocities of Hitler.

hows that when infact Evil is the absents of God in mans hearts. like darkness is the absents of light we just seperated the meaning of the two words to help describe what we see.

Then you don't think any evil exists, fine by me. What Hitler did is the absence of good, and God is responsible.

Quote:
If God stopped Adolf Hitler from being born then He would have been contradicting the meaning of free will.

If that's the case then God is affecting the freewill of all sperm that die before being born, so you defeated your own argument in that sense. And around in the "denying reality" circle we go. If god is all powerful he has the ability to make sure Hitler never comes into existence without affecting anyones free will. If he's not all powerful, he's not god.

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

Don't forget, Hitler thought he was doing God's will!


JesusSaves
Theist
Posts: 108
Joined: 2006-06-25
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

MattShizzle wrote:
Don't forget, Hitler thought he was doing God's will!

anyone who does that would say they are doing Gods will, my question to you is what gives you the power to acknowledge that something going on is wrong or to determine what is right and what wrong.. I mean you and me both know that what hitler did was wrong.

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


JesusSaves
Theist
Posts: 108
Joined: 2006-06-25
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

testing real quick


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

My mind does. There are still plenty of people out there who think what he did was good! If there really was a "Holy Ghost" (About the most ridiculous concept ever invented), wouldn't everyone agree 100% on what is right and wrong? Not just the big stuff, but the controversial stuff, like abortion, homosexuality, premaritial sex, etc. I personally see nothing whatsoever wrong with these 3, but most christians do, it seems.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


JesusSaves
Theist
Posts: 108
Joined: 2006-06-25
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

Quote:
My mind does.

where did that abilitie come from?

Quote:
There are still plenty of people out there who think what he did was good!

do you think deep down they probally know it was wrong.. I mean me and you agree that what he did was wrong.

Quote:
If there really was a "Holy Ghost" (About the most ridiculous concept ever invented), wouldn't everyone agree 100% on what is right and wrong?

No, cause not everyone would actually see it the same way. like scripture verses, we each have a different view on what they mean. like me and kingdavid we agree on the crucial part that Christ died to save us from sin and He rosed agian the third day. But we may not agree on some minor points.

Quote:
Not just the big stuff, but the controversial stuff, like abortion, homosexuality, premaritial sex, etc. I personally see nothing whatsoever wrong with these 3, but most christians do, it seems.

I personally see the wrong in 2 of these. and not that premarital sex is wrong -- just that in my opinion but the reason why I think you shouldn't do it is 1. it is unsafe. the person may have a desease from other past relationships 2. nothing binding you together like marriage does.

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

Quote:
where did that abilitie come from?

Millenia of evolution, society, education,etc.

Quote:
do you think deep down they probally know it was wrong.. I mean me and you agree that what he did was wrong.

no.

Quote:
No, cause not everyone would actually see it the same way. like scripture verses, we each have a different view on what they mean. like me and kingdavid we agree on the crucial part that Christ died to save us from sin and He rosed agian the third day. But we may not agree on some minor points.

Sapient, I, most others on here, Dan Darker, etc. Disagree on all of that.

Quote:
I personally see the wrong in 2 of these. and not that premarital sex is wrong -- just that in my opinion but the reason why I think you shouldn't do it is 1. it is unsafe. the person may have a desease from other past relationships 2. nothing binding you together like marriage does.

1. So unsafe = immoral?
2.That's why the majority of all marriages don't end in divorce! Laughing out loud

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


JesusSaves
Theist
Posts: 108
Joined: 2006-06-25
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

Quote:
Millenia of evolution, society, education,etc.

Society..? where did they learn it from then?

Quote:
no.

how do you know? I think they knew it was wrong but still wanted it to be right.

Quote:
Sapient, I, most others on here, Dan Darker, etc. Disagree on all of that.

on what?

Quote:
1. So unsafe = immoral?
2.That's why the majority of all marriages don't end in divorce!

no not unsafe = immoral for that would mean that biking would be unsafe and immoral. but the only reason why I believe premarital sex isn't the ideal things or isn't promoted is because the fact that it is risky to both individuals. and I didn't claim to say that marriages don't end in divorces I just said that marriages will mostly help keep the relationship and it would be alot easier to seek counsaling than if the persons single where he/she can do a one night stand and then hes/she is off.

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

Quote:
Society..? where did they learn it from then?

Through experience.

Quote:
how do you know? I think they knew it was wrong but still wanted it to be right.

Maybe some of them, or they were afraid to resist, but most of them thought they were right. Hitler himself said he was "finishing what Jesus started."

Quote:
on what?

That your Jesus was/is a savior and rose from the dead, o even ever existed. That the Bible is anything other than total nonsense, etc.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


JesusSaves
Theist
Posts: 108
Joined: 2006-06-25
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

Quote:
Through experience.

where did they get the idea of calling it evil and wrong. like that doesn't feel good I shouldn't do that. or that feels good I should keep doing that. (don't take this as just physical pain but also mental pain)

Quote:
Maybe some of them, or they were afraid to resist, but most of them thought they were right. Hitler himself said he was "finishing what Jesus started."

Quote:
That your Jesus was/is a savior and rose from the dead, o even ever existed. That the Bible is anything other than total nonsense, etc.

well I didn't say everyone would know. you simply said if there was Holy Spirit... which if there was (which I do believe there is) would only be apon those who accepts Him. and clearly those who don't accept him wouldn't agree on the major points of the gospels themselves..

I once heard that "you can take everything else out of the Bible, but take away the gospels then you just taken the point of the whole Bible itself"

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

The idea of calling it evil/wrong most likely came about as a way of controlling others. No society can survive if it allows people to harm each other without consequences. The idea that the Christian God told them it was wrong and that is why people believe so is simply absurd - murder, theft, rape etc. were against the law and considered wrong in every society, including those who had never heard of Christianity/Judaism. And I don't want to hear any BS about it's the Holy Spirit, etc. It's simply the vast majority of people object to being murdered, raped, robbed, etc. and see the benefit in preventing those who would commit such acts from being able to get away with it.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


JesusSaves
Theist
Posts: 108
Joined: 2006-06-25
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

MattShizzle wrote:
The idea of calling it evil/wrong most likely came about as a way of controlling others. No society can survive if it allows people to harm each other without consequences. The idea that the Christian God told them it was wrong and that is why people believe so is simply absurd - murder, theft, rape etc. were against the law and considered wrong in every society, including those who had never heard of Christianity/Judaism. And I don't want to hear any BS about it's the Holy Spirit, etc. It's simply the vast majority of people object to being murdered, raped, robbed, etc. and see the benefit in preventing those who would commit such acts from being able to get away with it.

but to begin with where did it come from? and I won't give you any that it is the Holy Spirit.
someone probally saw that it wasn't very good for the one being harmed he probally felt remorse for the person who was being harmed.

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

More than likely those who were harmed decided it wasn't a good thing.


JesusSaves
Theist
Posts: 108
Joined: 2006-06-25
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

MattShizzle wrote:
More than likely those who were harmed decided it wasn't a good thing.

but that doesn't explain the feeling they probally got.. like some who do harm others probally get a sense of guilt.. and then those who are hurt feel weak and those who watch feel remorsful to those who were hurt.. where did those feelings come from.

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


KingDavid8
Theist
Posts: 113
Joined: 2006-07-07
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

the_avenging_bucket wrote:
JesusSaves wrote:
Quote:
I think you need to read where it says "EVIL CAN BE TOSSED AROUND FOR WHAT IT MEANS" Meaning, I didnt say what it means. Anything can be evil, its based upon who is using it. JS probulary thinks Satan is evil. Where I think preists are evil.

But Matt said that evil is anything harmful to humans. and I want to know where that is coming from. is it what he learned from his parents or what?

Unlike yourself, Matt indulges in the sinfull pastime of THINKING...
You might want to try it sometime... just remember to pray for forgiveness afterwards...

I saw on TV where a criminal opened fire on a group of policemen, so the cops shot the guy! What evil cops, harming the person like that!

Or is evil something more complex than "anything harmful to humans"?

David


KingDavid8
Theist
Posts: 113
Joined: 2006-07-07
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

Sapient wrote:
KingDavid8 wrote:

Yes, omniscience means knowing all, and omnipotence means being all-powerful (though it doesn't mean that you actually do all things, just that you're able to). And being able to do all things means being able to create beings that are totally responsible for their own actions, which is what God did.

Right. He created those beings in that way knowing all of the evil they would commit, and did nothing to stop it.

Only because coming up with a plan that included no possibility of people committing evil would have been worse for mankind as a whole in the long run, since the only way to stop people from choosing evil would be to not give us free will or not create people who would eventually choose evil, and I don't know anyone who hasn't done something evil in their life (myself included). The only way God could have stopped me from doing the evil that I've done would be to make me a mindless robot or not have created me at all, and I'm not particularly fond of either option.

Quote:
It's his flawed plan, his flawed human design, and his responsibilty for evil.

It's only your opinion that it's flawed. Personally, I like it just fine. If God had created a world with no possibility of people disobeying Him, I wouldn't like it very much, and neither would anyone else that I know of, because we'd all have to be mindless robots or non-existent in such a world.

Quote:

Game set match, every fucking time.

Stating your opinion wins the game? Stupid game, then.

Quote:
Quote:

No, people are responsible for the evil they do, and God is not.

Who created people knowing the evil they'd commit?

Who had the power to make us differently without affecting our free will?

Answer to both: GOD. God is responsible.

If by "differently", you mean "unable to commit evil", then making us differently would be affecting our free will.

Quote:

Keep denying reality, you look like a fucking retard.

Would you prefer the world to be one in which no one has the option of disobeying God? Most people wouldn't.

David


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

Can't Christians go five minutes without twisting words? :roll:

Obviously the cops did that to prevent harm to themselves/each other/innocent bystanders.

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


KingDavid8
Theist
Posts: 113
Joined: 2006-07-07
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

MattShizzle wrote:
Can't Christians go five minutes without twisting words? :roll:

Obviously the cops did that to prevent harm to themselves/each other/innocent bystanders.

Looking back through the thread, I do see that your exact words were "anything that is harmful to humanity" not "anything harmful to humans", which is different, since shooting a man who is trying to hurt other men, while harmful to a human, isn't harmful to humanity. So while I do apologize for being misinformed of what you said, I was, in my defense, only responding to what someone else claimed you said, not to what you actually said.

That said, I do believe that the definition you give is a bit vague. There are acts of evil that aren't "harmful to humanity", such as torturing kittens to death. Also, what if someone does something believing that it's for the good of humanity, but it turns out to be bad for us? Or, contrarily, what if someone does something that he thinks is going to harm humanity, but it ends up backfiring and being good for us? Is evil dependent upon motivation, or result?

David


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

As for torturing kittens to death, I agree that would be evil (note the bible says nothing about animal rights.) All this proves is that ethics are complicated, which would indicate that a 2000 year old book chock full of mistakes in virtually everything, cruelty and immorality (the basic precept of the Bible is that might makes right) has no place in modern ethics. I have to agree with the way one person described Jesus - "A mediocre preacher with mistaken ideas about almost everything."

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7530
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

JesusSaves wrote:
MattShizzle wrote:
The idea of calling it evil/wrong most likely came about as a way of controlling others. No society can survive if it allows people to harm each other without consequences. The idea that the Christian God told them it was wrong and that is why people believe so is simply absurd - murder, theft, rape etc. were against the law and considered wrong in every society, including those who had never heard of Christianity/Judaism. And I don't want to hear any BS about it's the Holy Spirit, etc. It's simply the vast majority of people object to being murdered, raped, robbed, etc. and see the benefit in preventing those who would commit such acts from being able to get away with it.

but to begin with where did it come from? and I won't give you any that it is the Holy Spirit.
someone probally saw that it wasn't very good for the one being harmed he probally felt remorse for the person who was being harmed.

Do you guys see how far and moot this line of thought is from the actual topic? Shizzle, do you feel dirty for indulging JSs' dodging of reality by his insertion of unimportant nonsequitors to the debate? Look how many posts you folks are talking about this.

This is how this should be addressed (REPEAT 21 POSTS LATER):

Sapient wrote:
JesusSaves wrote:
Quote:
You can have two good choices, two bad choices, three bad choices, on and on... what does this have to do with God being ultimately responsible for all of the evil in the world? Red Herring non sequitor much?

Evil by what I am interpretting it to meaning. is not just being evil. but is something that can also be good but without God in the process of it.

adolf hitler, do you think, what he did to the jews, knew it was wrong?

but yet still thought it was good?

It doesn't matter, God is ultimately responsible for having the power to have stopped Adolf Hitler from coming into existence without affecting the unborn life of Adolf Hitler. God also knew exactly what Hitler would do, and must've wanted Hitler to do it. Additionally God is ultimately responsible for the attrocities of Hitler.

edit in: It doesn't matter where the notion of evil came from, we refer to some negative things as evil, those things are a direct responsibility of the god who allowed them to happen.

You're arguing a non-sequitor point.

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


Atheist_Scathe
Posts: 69
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

Sapient wrote:
KingDavid8 wrote:

Okay, leave it at "Not if God gave us free will", which would make US responsible for the evil we commit, not God.

And who created us knowing the evil we'd commit? God! Therefore God is ultimately responsible for all evil.

Mandatory Deicide lyrics: "Blame it on god/Blame it on god-liar..." heh but seriously, it does beg the question: evidently this lunacy of "free will" knows no bounds: it's more important to "god" that we're free to fall to our knees and give him the sycophantic credalistic adulatory mumblings his fragile "limp dick" ego craves than it is to save Jessica Marie Lynn from being abducted, raped and murdered or to save Jews, Gypsies, etc. from the Holocaust... I can't tell you, KD8, how utterly sickening I find that. Lest you think that I'm merely a "god-hating atheist" think again: I don't hate "god" for kicks, I hate the idea in which so much wanton cruelty is glossed over, rationalized, and even flat out mandated- no, I'm not just talking about Christianity here.


Atheist_Scathe
Posts: 69
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

JesusSaves wrote:
MattShizzle wrote:
Don't forget, Hitler thought he was doing God's will!

anyone who does that would say they are doing Gods will, my question to you is what gives you the power to acknowledge that something going on is wrong or to determine what is right and what wrong.. I mean you and me both know that what hitler did was wrong.

Well, I'm a moral nihilist so ultimately I have the horrid luxury of being able to step back, drag on my cigar, take a sip of my cheap whiskey or much, much cheaper malt liquor and in the most scholarly voice that a twenty-one-year old college-dwelling metalhead who wears a "Choppers for life" hat can muster, tell you that morality is nothing but an interesting game with absolutely (heheh) no basis in reality- in other words, no REAL right or wrong.

But of course that's cheating, and it misses the point: even though there's no ultimate standard of morality/moral imperative for me, there are still standards of morality that I adhere to and believe in very strongly. Now here's the kicker: those standards aren't mandated by an invisible being. No, they're much better than anything that any theistic religion ever dished out: they're humanist moral standards. So yes, I know that what Hitler did was wrong because it runs counter to my liberal, secular humanist standards of morality.


Atheist_Scathe
Posts: 69
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

JesusSaves wrote:
Quote:
My mind does.

Quote:
where did that abilitie come from?

Human evolution, biological and social. My pet California Kingsnake can't reason through these kinds of things, her mind is much too small and simple. Therefore it's no accident that she can't live in groups with complex interpersonal relationships and interpersonal ethics.

Quote:
There are still plenty of people out there who think what he did was good!

Quote:
do you think deep down they probally know it was wrong.. I mean me and you agree that what he did was wrong.

Honestly, no I think they didn't/don't at all in many cases... anymore than devout Christians think that god is in the wrong for sadistically torturing the unbelieving for all eternity. Or Muslims, for that matter... there's a lot of that nasty stuff in the Koran, and I say this from firsthand experience.

Quote:
If there really was a "Holy Ghost" (About the most ridiculous concept ever invented), wouldn't everyone agree 100% on what is right and wrong?

Quote:
No, cause not everyone would actually see it the same way. like scripture verses, we each have a different view on what they mean. like me and kingdavid we agree on the crucial part that Christ died to save us from sin and He rosed agian the third day. But we may not agree on some minor points.

Missing the point, methinks, because this holy-birdie could GIVE us the "right answers" through conscience and so forth.

Hmm, not sure I agree that the holy-birdie is the MOST ridiculous concept ever invented... what about Satan?! Haha that guy must be a fucking god based on some of the things Christians chalk up to him! Leading people to have premarital or (gasp!) homosexual sex, leading people to dance, drink, do drugs, listen to rock and roll, commit suicide... Christ, the list must be endless! It's hilarious to me because I can't IMAGINE being a powerful, invisible, non-corporeal spirit and having NOTHING better to do than to go around getting people into this stuff!

Quote:
Not just the big stuff, but the controversial stuff, like abortion, homosexuality, premaritial sex, etc. I personally see nothing whatsoever wrong with these 3, but most christians do, it seems.

Quote:
I personally see the wrong in 2 of these. and not that premarital sex is wrong -- just that in my opinion but the reason why I think you shouldn't do it is 1. it is unsafe.

Ever heard of condoms? Ever heard of modern medicine? What if it's both of your first time?

Quote:
the person may have a desease from other past relationships 2. nothing binding you together like marriage does.

Ah, 1) see the above and 2) I cry bullshit. The divorce rate in America is...? and the CHRISTIAN divorce rate in America is...? And you were saying...?! And what does it matter anyway? Why shouldn't two consenting adults have the right to a one-night stand, even?


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

That is the problem with arguing with Christians. They won't keep to the point, especially when they are losing the argument badly! Laughing out loud

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


KingDavid8
Theist
Posts: 113
Joined: 2006-07-07
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

MattShizzle wrote:
As for torturing kittens to death, I agree that would be evil (note the bible says nothing about animal rights.) All this proves is that ethics are complicated, which would indicate that a 2000 year old book chock full of mistakes in virtually everything, cruelty and immorality (the basic precept of the Bible is that might makes right) has no place in modern ethics. I have to agree with the way one person described Jesus - "A mediocre preacher with mistaken ideas about almost everything."

Until we can figure out a consistent definition for evil that applies fairly and accurately to all situations, then pretty much everything you said about the Bible and Jesus above comes down to mere opinion.

David


KingDavid8
Theist
Posts: 113
Joined: 2006-07-07
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

Atheist_Scathe wrote:
Sapient wrote:
KingDavid8 wrote:

Okay, leave it at "Not if God gave us free will", which would make US responsible for the evil we commit, not God.

And who created us knowing the evil we'd commit? God! Therefore God is ultimately responsible for all evil.

Mandatory Deicide lyrics: "Blame it on god/Blame it on god-liar..." heh but seriously, it does beg the question: evidently this lunacy of "free will" knows no bounds: it's more important to "god" that we're free to fall to our knees and give him the sycophantic credalistic adulatory mumblings his fragile "limp dick" ego craves than it is to save Jessica Marie Lynn from being abducted, raped and murdered or to save Jews, Gypsies, etc. from the Holocaust... I can't tell you, KD8, how utterly sickening I find that. Lest you think that I'm merely a "god-hating atheist" think again: I don't hate "god" for kicks, I hate the idea in which so much wanton cruelty is glossed over, rationalized, and even flat out mandated- no, I'm not just talking about Christianity here.

First of all, please stop twisting Christian beliefs. You're embarassing your fellow atheists when you do that. You're entitled to your opinions, but stating that God craves praise to satisfy his ego is not anything that Christians believe or is supported by anything but a very prejudicial reading of the Bible. We praise God because we're thankful for what God has done for us.

Second of all, you're taking one of the minor good things that people do, and comparing it to the very worst things that people do, and consider this a fair comparison? It's not. If you would truly and honestly prefer it that God made you a mindless robot pre-programmed only to do what He wants, or not to have made you at all, then you're practically alone in that preference. Most Christians wouldn't like that, and I imagine that most non-Christians would like it even less.

David


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

Here's a few of the many biblical mistakes:
Insects have 4 legs, bats are birds, the Earth could experience day and night before the sun existed, plants could grow and produce fruit before the sun existed, horses can die more than once, plants can survive under more than a mile of water for a year, the value of pi is exactly 3... etc. Laughing out loud

Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team


Atheist_Scathe
Posts: 69
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

KingDavid8 wrote:
Atheist_Scathe wrote:
Sapient wrote:
KingDavid8 wrote:

Okay, leave it at "Not if God gave us free will", which would make US responsible for the evil we commit, not God.

And who created us knowing the evil we'd commit? God! Therefore God is ultimately responsible for all evil.

Mandatory Deicide lyrics: "Blame it on god/Blame it on god-liar..." heh but seriously, it does beg the question: evidently this lunacy of "free will" knows no bounds: it's more important to "god" that we're free to fall to our knees and give him the sycophantic credalistic adulatory mumblings his fragile "limp dick" ego craves than it is to save Jessica Marie Lynn from being abducted, raped and murdered or to save Jews, Gypsies, etc. from the Holocaust... I can't tell you, KD8, how utterly sickening I find that. Lest you think that I'm merely a "god-hating atheist" think again: I don't hate "god" for kicks, I hate the idea in which so much wanton cruelty is glossed over, rationalized, and even flat out mandated- no, I'm not just talking about Christianity here.

Quote:
First of all, please stop twisting Christian beliefs.

Twisting, was I? Funny, I seem to recall ample support for this from the Bible... if not for worship/fellowship why DID your god create? I'll get back to you on this with the requisite bible verses but it DOES beg the question.

Quote:
You're embarassing your fellow atheists when you do that. You're entitled to your opinions, but stating that God craves praise to satisfy his ego is not anything that Christians believe or is supported by anything but a very prejudicial reading of the Bible. We praise God because we're thankful for what God has done for us.

Please see the above. And remember god's own proclamations that he is jealous, and his bursts of outrage and intolerance at any deviation from his set script. I invite you to spend a little time in Revelations 20 and 21 for examples of this.

And why does an omniscient, omnipotent being need praise? Isn't virtue its own reward?

Quote:
Second of all, you're taking one of the minor good things that people do, and comparing it to the very worst things that people do, and consider this a fair comparison?

Sorry but come again? Which good thing was I comparing to those heinous acts? We're talking about god's responsibility for restraining his more malevolent creations.

Quote:
It's not. If you would truly and honestly prefer it that God made you a mindless robot pre-programmed only to do what He wants, or not to have made you at all, then you're practically alone in that preference. Most Christians wouldn't like that, and I imagine that most non-Christians would like it even less.

David

Eh well, I firmly believe that only atheism really offers a proper explanation for the petty absurdities and grotesque cruelties of this fly-blown carcass of a world of shit but that's neither here nor there. This is an ethics question: would you come to the rescue of Jews in the Holocaust, yes or no? We're assuming you have all powers to be able to do so with no risk, harm or even discomfort to your person. Would you do it? If you answer yes, let's imagine that you have the power to, say, go back in time and PREVENT it from EVER HAPPENING, what do you say to that? You see where this is going?


KingDavid8
Theist
Posts: 113
Joined: 2006-07-07
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

Atheist_Scathe wrote:
KingDavid8 wrote:
Atheist_Scathe wrote:
Sapient wrote:
KingDavid8 wrote:

Okay, leave it at "Not if God gave us free will", which would make US responsible for the evil we commit, not God.

And who created us knowing the evil we'd commit? God! Therefore God is ultimately responsible for all evil.

Mandatory Deicide lyrics: "Blame it on god/Blame it on god-liar..." heh but seriously, it does beg the question: evidently this lunacy of "free will" knows no bounds: it's more important to "god" that we're free to fall to our knees and give him the sycophantic credalistic adulatory mumblings his fragile "limp dick" ego craves than it is to save Jessica Marie Lynn from being abducted, raped and murdered or to save Jews, Gypsies, etc. from the Holocaust... I can't tell you, KD8, how utterly sickening I find that. Lest you think that I'm merely a "god-hating atheist" think again: I don't hate "god" for kicks, I hate the idea in which so much wanton cruelty is glossed over, rationalized, and even flat out mandated- no, I'm not just talking about Christianity here.

Quote:
First of all, please stop twisting Christian beliefs.

Twisting, was I? Funny, I seem to recall ample support for this from the Bible... if not for worship/fellowship why DID your god create? I'll get back to you on this with the requisite bible verses but it DOES beg the question.

Worship and fellowship, yes. Notice the word "fellowship" in there.

Quote:

Quote:
You're embarassing your fellow atheists when you do that. You're entitled to your opinions, but stating that God craves praise to satisfy his ego is not anything that Christians believe or is supported by anything but a very prejudicial reading of the Bible. We praise God because we're thankful for what God has done for us.

Please see the above. And remember god's own proclamations that he is jealous, and his bursts of outrage and intolerance at any deviation from his set script. I invite you to spend a little time in Revelations 20 and 21 for examples of this.

Oh, please. If you're thinking that his "bursts" are only about "deviation from his set script", then you're twisting things even further than I thought. His harshness with the Israelites was about stopping them from self-destruction.

Quote:

And why does an omniscient, omnipotent being need praise? Isn't virtue its own reward?

Again, you're twisting. Nothing in the Bible says he needs praise. If someone gives you a nice gift, do you automatically assume they're doing it because they need for you to thank them?

Quote:

Quote:
Second of all, you're taking one of the minor good things that people do, and comparing it to the very worst things that people do, and consider this a fair comparison?

Sorry but come again? Which good thing was I comparing to those heinous acts?

Praising God was the good thing you were comparing to those heinous acts (or are you saying that being thankful for gifts isn't a good thing?). Or if you're saying that's not a good thing, then you just using an example of the worst things people do and not acknowledging the good at all.

Quote:

We're talking about god's responsibility for restraining his more malevolent creations.

How about we restrain ourselves, instead of every time we do something awful say, "Hey, God, why didn't you stop me?".

Quote:

Quote:
It's not. If you would truly and honestly prefer it that God made you a mindless robot pre-programmed only to do what He wants, or not to have made you at all, then you're practically alone in that preference. Most Christians wouldn't like that, and I imagine that most non-Christians would like it even less.

David

Eh well, I firmly believe that only atheism really offers a proper explanation for the petty absurdities and grotesque cruelties of this fly-blown carcass of a world of shit but that's neither here nor there. This is an ethics question: would you come to the rescue of Jews in the Holocaust, yes or no?

Me personally, yes.

Quote:
We're assuming you have all powers to be able to do so with no risk, harm or even discomfort to your person. Would you do it? If you answer yes, let's imagine that you have the power to, say, go back in time and PREVENT it from EVER HAPPENING, what do you say to that? You see where this is going?

Of course. You're saying that when people do something evil, God should make it so that they cannot, or prevent those who do evil from existing in the first place. But I'm saying that if God granted you that wish and made the world that way, it would be a world not worth living in. Despite the horror of what Hitler did, the alternative world you're asking for would be worse. Atheists would hate the world being like that even more than Christians would, I imagine.


Atheist_Scathe
Posts: 69
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

KingDavid8 wrote:
Atheist_Scathe wrote:
KingDavid8 wrote:
Atheist_Scathe wrote:
Sapient wrote:
KingDavid8 wrote:

Okay, leave it at "Not if God gave us free will", which would make US responsible for the evil we commit, not God.

And who created us knowing the evil we'd commit? God! Therefore God is ultimately responsible for all evil.

Mandatory Deicide lyrics: "Blame it on god/Blame it on god-liar..." heh but seriously, it does beg the question: evidently this lunacy of "free will" knows no bounds: it's more important to "god" that we're free to fall to our knees and give him the sycophantic credalistic adulatory mumblings his fragile "limp dick" ego craves than it is to save Jessica Marie Lynn from being abducted, raped and murdered or to save Jews, Gypsies, etc. from the Holocaust... I can't tell you, KD8, how utterly sickening I find that. Lest you think that I'm merely a "god-hating atheist" think again: I don't hate "god" for kicks, I hate the idea in which so much wanton cruelty is glossed over, rationalized, and even flat out mandated- no, I'm not just talking about Christianity here.

Quote:
First of all, please stop twisting Christian beliefs.

Twisting, was I? Funny, I seem to recall ample support for this from the Bible... if not for worship/fellowship why DID your god create? I'll get back to you on this with the requisite bible verses but it DOES beg the question.

Quote:
Worship and fellowship, yes. Notice the word "fellowship" in there.

Yes, and for the records I was being facetious to make a point- but I hope that was obvious. The point was, and is, mostly about the problem of evil- more about that below. However the relevant portion here is the TENOR of the relationship that Christians seem to have with their deity- one of subservience and adulation in this life in anticipation of the one to come, wherein they seem to believe that they will- that's right- carry ON doing more of the SAME- for all eternity. Such is the nature of this "fellowship"; glad I pegged that one but after all, not that long since my apostasy (early '05) so I thought I had that right.

Quote:

Quote:
You're embarassing your fellow atheists when you do that. You're entitled to your opinions, but stating that God craves praise to satisfy his ego is not anything that Christians believe or is supported by anything but a very prejudicial reading of the Bible. We praise God because we're thankful for what God has done for us.

Please see the above. And remember god's own proclamations that he is jealous, and his bursts of outrage and intolerance at any deviation from his set script. I invite you to spend a little time in Revelations 20 and 21 for examples of this.

Quote:
Oh, please. If you're thinking that his "bursts" are only about "deviation from his set script", then you're twisting things even further than I thought. His harshness with the Israelites was about stopping them from self-destruction.

I find it humorous the way you Christians fail to take your own fucking bible at face value. How about that little "hissy fit" over the golden calf? Why did god need to extirpate what was it, twenty-four thousand Hebs in a plague in reprisal for screwing with a bunch of Midianites? And the FLOOD for crying out loud?! Not to mention the horrors of perdition revealed in Revelation. I'm afraid your disingenuity mounts here, KD8, in that you fail to recognize the dictatorial character of the deity you serve. Rather than saving us from destruction, he exhorts us to bow and scrape lest HE destroy us or subject us to some horrible punishment. Christ's sacrifice really would appear to be a case of god's sacrificing himself to himself to save us from himself because he's pissed about the way we ourselves are even though he made us that way... <blows fuse in brain at moronic butchery of anything remotely resembling coherent logic>

Quote:

And why does an omniscient, omnipotent being need praise? Isn't virtue its own reward?

Quote:
Again, you're twisting. Nothing in the Bible says he needs praise. If someone gives you a nice gift, do you automatically assume they're doing it because they need for you to thank them?

Hmm, but look how he handles competition: Exodus 20:3 says "You shall have no other gods before me." Exodus also mandates a lengthy series of instructions about the right ways to sacrifice and when to sacrifice and for WHAT to sacrifice and so on... and this litany continues, if memory serves, into ensuant books. My criticism stands as such. If the deity doesn't need/strongly desire praise/adoration/devotion/whatever why these mandates?

Quote:

Quote:
Second of all, you're taking one of the minor good things that people do, and comparing it to the very worst things that people do, and consider this a fair comparison?

Sorry but come again? Which good thing was I comparing to those heinous acts?

Quote:
Praising God was the good thing you were comparing to those heinous acts (or are you saying that being thankful for gifts isn't a good thing?). Or if you're saying that's not a good thing, then you just using an example of the worst things people do and not acknowledging the good at all.

Thank you, I was a bit confused there. My point there was that the deity seems to find it SO important that we be free to serve/adulate him that he is willing to allow the human race to destroy itself and the world we live in many times over. Now, you say that WE are responsible for this; for the purposes of argument I'll concede you that (without getting into things like mentally ill serial killers etc.) but OUR point on here is that god is still responsible. If I own a guard dog it's my responsibility to leash it. If god wants to make a universe full of creations he's responsible for how they turn out if he has all-knowledge and all-power.

Quote:

We're talking about god's responsibility for restraining his more malevolent creations.

Quote:
How about we restrain ourselves, instead of every time we do something awful say, "Hey, God, why didn't you stop me?".

Tell that to the Jews in the Holocaust or the Tutsis slaughtered in Rwanda in 1994 etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc...

Quote:

Quote:
It's not. If you would truly and honestly prefer it that God made you a mindless robot pre-programmed only to do what He wants, or not to have made you at all, then you're practically alone in that preference. Most Christians wouldn't like that, and I imagine that most non-Christians would like it even less.

David

Eh well, I firmly believe that only atheism really offers a proper explanation for the petty absurdities and grotesque cruelties of this fly-blown carcass of a world of shit but that's neither here nor there. This is an ethics question: would you come to the rescue of Jews in the Holocaust, yes or no?

Quote:
Me personally, yes.

Right, because you'd feel a moral responsibility, no? You, having the ability to DO something and KNOWING it'll work, feel that you can NOT decline? So why should god be above such logic, especially since he created Hitler and everything else in this rotten world in the FIRST place?!

Quote:
We're assuming you have all powers to be able to do so with no risk, harm or even discomfort to your person. Would you do it? If you answer yes, let's imagine that you have the power to, say, go back in time and PREVENT it from EVER HAPPENING, what do you say to that? You see where this is going?

Quote:
Of course. You're saying that when people do something evil, God should make it so that they cannot, or prevent those who do evil from existing in the first place. But I'm saying that if God granted you that wish and made the world that way, it would be a world not worth living in. Despite the horror of what Hitler did, the alternative world you're asking for would be worse. Atheists would hate the world being like that even more than Christians would, I imagine.

Something about a world where everything from the end-Ordovician extinction to the Holocaust, Rwanda etc. DIDN'T happen holds a strange appeal for me, yes. I think you're also begging the question. How on earth, if you'll pardon the pun, could that be WORSE?


KingDavid8
Theist
Posts: 113
Joined: 2006-07-07
User is offlineOffline
Are you a true Christian?

Atheist_Scathe wrote:
KingDavid8 wrote:
Worship and fellowship, yes. Notice the word "fellowship" in there.

Yes, and for the records I was being facetious to make a point- but I hope that was obvious. The point was, and is, mostly about the problem of evil- more about that below. However the relevant portion here is the TENOR of the relationship that Christians seem to have with their deity- one of subservience and adulation in this life in anticipation of the one to come, wherein they seem to believe that they will- that's right- carry ON doing more of the SAME- for all eternity. Such is the nature of this "fellowship"; glad I pegged that one but after all, not that long since my apostasy (early '05) so I thought I had that right.

Yes, I'm sure they will continue to be thankful, and express that thankfulness now and then, but I seriously doubt people in Heaven are going to be just spending every single moment doing nothing but praising God, any more than Christians here spend every single moment doing nothing but praising God. People (except for a select few, perhaps) do take their time to enjoy the world God has given us and partake in the blessings, and not just spend every waking moment yelling "Thanks, God!". I can't imagine that such a life would be how God wants us to live, here or in what comes next.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
You're embarassing your fellow atheists when you do that. You're entitled to your opinions, but stating that God craves praise to satisfy his ego is not anything that Christians believe or is supported by anything but a very prejudicial reading of the Bible. We praise God because we're thankful for what God has done for us.

Please see the above. And remember god's own proclamations that he is jealous, and his bursts of outrage and intolerance at any deviation from his set script. I invite you to spend a little time in Revelations 20 and 21 for examples of this.

Quote:
Oh, please. If you're thinking that his "bursts" are only about "deviation from his set script", then you're twisting things even further than I thought. His harshness with the Israelites was about stopping them from self-destruction.

I find it humorous the way you Christians fail to take your own fucking bible at face value. How about that little "hissy fit" over the golden calf? Why did god need to extirpate what was it, twenty-four thousand Hebs in a plague in reprisal for screwing with a bunch of Midianites? And the FLOOD for crying out loud?! Not to mention the horrors of perdition revealed in Revelation. I'm afraid your disingenuity mounts here, KD8, in that you fail to recognize the dictatorial character of the deity you serve. Rather than saving us from destruction, he exhorts us to bow and scrape lest HE destroy us or subject us to some horrible punishment. Christ's sacrifice really would appear to be a case of god's sacrificing himself to himself to save us from himself because he's pissed about the way we ourselves are even though he made us that way... <blows fuse in brain at moronic butchery of anything remotely resembling coherent logic>

Are you being facetious to make a point again? That is such twisting of the Bible that I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are.

Quote:
Quote:

And why does an omniscient, omnipotent being need praise? Isn't virtue its own reward?

Quote:
Again, you're twisting. Nothing in the Bible says he needs praise. If someone gives you a nice gift, do you automatically assume they're doing it because they need for you to thank them?

Hmm, but look how he handles competition: Exodus 20:3 says "You shall have no other gods before me."

The Israelites needed God's protection and guidance in order to survive. He was pretty much the only thing keeping them from being destroyed by themselves and/or their enemies, so worshipping gods who had nothing to offer and following their non-existent will over the will of the one who's trying to keep them alive, was really a pretty bad idea, overall. Imagine a squad of soldiers at war who know that their general is a wise man and looking out for them, but ignore his orders and just do whatever the heck they feel like doing and listen to whoever the heck they feel like listening to. How long do you think this squad is going to last in battle?

Quote:
Exodus also mandates a lengthy series of instructions about the right ways to sacrifice and when to sacrifice and for WHAT to sacrifice and so on... and this litany continues, if memory serves, into ensuant books. My criticism stands as such. If the deity doesn't need/strongly desire praise/adoration/devotion/whatever why these mandates?

The sacrifices were for the good of the Israelites, not for the good of God. It was how their sins were forgiven.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:

Quote:
Second of all, you're taking one of the minor good things that people do, and comparing it to the very worst things that people do, and consider this a fair comparison?

Sorry but come again? Which good thing was I comparing to those heinous acts?

Praising God was the good thing you were comparing to those heinous acts (or are you saying that being thankful for gifts isn't a good thing?). Or if you're saying that's not a good thing, then you just using an example of the worst things people do and not acknowledging the good at all.

Thank you, I was a bit confused there. My point there was that the deity seems to find it SO important that we be free to serve/adulate him that he is willing to allow the human race to destroy itself and the world we live in many times over. Now, you say that WE are responsible for this; for the purposes of argument I'll concede you that (without getting into things like mentally ill serial killers etc.) but OUR point on here is that god is still responsible. If I own a guard dog it's my responsibility to leash it. If god wants to make a universe full of creations he's responsible for how they turn out if he has all-knowledge and all-power.

Not if he's giving them freedom though. If you're saying he should keep people leashed up so that they can't hurt other people, then remember that you and I are going to be on the leashes also. I don't know about you, but I'd rather not be on one and take my chances at getting bitten now and then.

Quote:
Quote:

We're talking about god's responsibility for restraining his more malevolent creations.

Quote:
How about we restrain ourselves, instead of every time we do something awful say, "Hey, God, why didn't you stop me?".

Tell that to the Jews in the Holocaust or the Tutsis slaughtered in Rwanda in 1994 etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc...

I don't need to. I'm sure most of the Jews and Tutsis believed in God, and they blamed nobody but the Nazis and Hutus. If you're saying God is responsible for not stopping it, then I'm sure that practically all of the people who were there and suffering and dying would disagree with you on that.

Quote:
Quote:

Quote:
It's not. If you would truly and honestly prefer it that God made you a mindless robot pre-programmed only to do what He wants, or not to have made you at all, then you're practically alone in that preference. Most Christians wouldn't like that, and I imagine that most non-Christians would like it even less.

David

Eh well, I firmly believe that only atheism really offers a proper explanation for the petty absurdities and grotesque cruelties of this fly-blown carcass of a world of shit but that's neither here nor there. This is an ethics question: would you come to the rescue of Jews in the Holocaust, yes or no?

Quote:
Me personally, yes.

Right, because you'd feel a moral responsibility, no? You, having the ability to DO something and KNOWING it'll work, feel that you can NOT decline? So why should god be above such logic, especially since he created Hitler and everything else in this rotten world in the FIRST place?!

Because His interference would require a removal of free will, one way or the other. We only have free will to the extent that we are able to misuse it (it's the same with all rights if you think about it).

Quote:

Quote:
We're assuming you have all powers to be able to do so with no risk, harm or even discomfort to your person. Would you do it? If you answer yes, let's imagine that you have the power to, say, go back in time and PREVENT it from EVER HAPPENING, what do you say to that? You see where this is going?

Quote:
Of course. You're saying that when people do something evil, God should make it so that they cannot, or prevent those who do evil from existing in the first place. But I'm saying that if God granted you that wish and made the world that way, it would be a world not worth living in. Despite the horror of what Hitler did, the alternative world you're asking for would be worse. Atheists would hate the world being like that even more than Christians would, I imagine.

Something about a world where everything from the end-Ordovician extinction to the Holocaust, Rwanda etc. DIDN'T happen holds a strange appeal for me, yes. I think you're also begging the question. How on earth, if you'll pardon the pun, could that be WORSE?

Imagine you're living a life where you're unable to make a single decision for yourself - where you can't do anything you want to do, unless God wants you to do it - where any time you consider doing something God doesn't like, God stops you automatically - where you have no ability to think what you want to think or believe what you want to believe, only what God wants you to think and believe - where God makes all of your decisions for you. Personally, I'd rather have freedom and take my chances of eventually being killed by Nazis or Hutus, than live that way. I'd see no point in being born if I had no free will, while I'm sure those killed by the Nazis and Hutus were glad to have had life for a little while.

David