Two questions for Christians

Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7522
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
Two questions for Christians

Can God make a rock so big that he can't lift it?

Could god have changed his plan for our existence before setting it into motion without affecting our free will?

Answering no to either shows us that god is not all powerful. Answering yes to the first one shows us that he's not all powerful. Answering yes to the second one shows us that God must want certain people to exist to convince others of his nonexistence.

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


KingDavid8
Theist
Posts: 113
Joined: 2006-07-07
User is offlineOffline
Two questions for Christians

gdon wrote:
KingDavid8 wrote:
But I'll also say it's hard not to get a bit defensive and reputation-oriented when I see so many people trying to attack my reputation instead of my actual arguments. I've seen a lot of people twisting my words, using insults, and leveling false accusations of dishonesty against me. The "character-concerned" part of me doesn't worry about that, since I know that these things say more about the people doing them than it does about me, but we all have a "reputation-concerned" part of us, and, in my case, it hasn't responded well.

Hi KD. As they say, "ya pays ya money and ya takes ya chances". Keep in mind that this is a "fundy atheist" board. Atheists get the same treatment on fundy theist boards. And like fundy theist boards, most of the regulars are more interested in attacking the other side than in a meeting of minds. Frustrating indeed, if you are interested in the debating process, as you clearly are. Think of them as a support group for like-minded individuals, rather than people who are interested in debates.

Then they shouldn't be calling it "Rational Responders", should they?

Quote:

Check this link out here: http://christiancadre.blogspot.com/2006/07/foolishness-from-rational-responders.html

A theist lists his experience when posting in a"$100 Jesus historicity challenge" issued by the Rational Responders. When the theist side looked like it was going to win the challenge, the moderator started to delete posts. (I checked the thread myself, and can confirm this)

If you want a good debate with knowledgeable atheists who aren't going to insult you, I strongly suggest you try the Internet Infidels at this link:
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/forumdisplay.php?f=60 The Rational Responders are considered a joke by the atheists on that forum.

Though it's been a while, I've had very good discussions at www.Theologyweb.com . I will try that forum, though.

Quote:

KingDavid8 wrote:
So if we can change things a bit here, make things a bit more friendly, then I think both sides can learn a lot about each other.

Sadly, it's not going to happen. When you consider that many of the insults come from the MODERATORS THEMSELVES, it means that that's how the board is expected to be.

True, but they should either change it or make a specific forum for friendly discussion if they really want to change believers' minds. No rational believer is going to see their behavior and think, "hmmm...these guys make a lot of sense".

Quote:

I'll PM you this post in case this one post gets deleted. Go over to the Internet Infidels -- it's a great debating board. You'll find you won't miss this forum at all. Just come back here occasionally to have a good laugh.

I'll do that. I think you're right in saying that things aren't going to change here, though if anyone here is interested in talking to me without using insults, twisting of words, or other forms of dishonesty, feel free to visit my web site, www.KingDavid8.com and contact me through it.

Bye, everyone. I'm gone.

David


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Two questions for Christians

Well, the link to the Britney Spears is dead site was funny. Laughing out loud


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7522
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
Two questions for Christians

KingDavid8 wrote:

if anyone here is interested in talking to me without using insults, twisting of words, or other forms of dishonesty, feel free to visit my web site, www.KingDavid8.com and contact me through it.

There's no "dishonesty" at your "Magical Castle?" (check out his link ppl) Or is the "Magic Castle" just twisting words?

Quote:
Bye, everyone. I'm gone.

David

Uh-oh... I've got a feeling we'll see more posts from David. I've seen acts like this before.

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


gdon
Theist
Posts: 86
Joined: 2006-03-06
User is offlineOffline
Two questions for Christians

Sapient wrote:
GDon wrote:
When the theist side looked like it was going to win the challenge, the moderator started to delete posts. (I checked the thread myself, and can confirm this)

Posts got moved not deleted, here they all are. Don't believe everything Christians tell you.


When I read here that you had admitted that you guys had lost the contest but were deleting the posts, I went looking for the contest thread on your website. What I found was your comment (my emphasis):
http://www.rationalresponders.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=640
"CLARIFICATION FOR PRIZE 2 IS COMING, AND NO FURTHER ENTRIES WILL BE ACCEPTED UNTIL THE CLARIFICATIONS COME. ANY ENTRIES WILL BE DELETED UNTIL CLARIFICATION COMES"

I checked the Internet cache, and indeed confirmed that posts were missing. I can't find any comment by you that you were moving posts, only deleting. I'm glad to see the missing posts, but there is nothing on the original thread to say where the posts were moved to. Can you add a note to the original thread to that effect? Anyone reading the original thread would still believe that you guys hadn't already lost the contest. Shouldn't that at least be in there?

Sapient, why did you delete the posts in the first place? I can see no reason for it, other than to save embarrassment. You have to admit that it does look suspicious. Why (1) move posts at all, and then (2) not note where the deleted ones are?

"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into." -- Author unknown


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7522
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
Two questions for Christians

gdon wrote:
ANY ENTRIES WILL BE DELETED UNTIL CLARIFICATION COMES"

That refers to only new posts, not anything that was already posted. Nobody submitted new entries and therefore nothing needed to be deleted.

Quote:
Anyone reading the original thread would still believe that you guys hadn't already lost the contest.

I'll remove the info from prize 2 from the first post right now.

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


gdon
Theist
Posts: 86
Joined: 2006-03-06
User is offlineOffline
Two questions for Christians

Sapient wrote:
gdon wrote:
ANY ENTRIES WILL BE DELETED UNTIL CLARIFICATION COMES"

That refers to only new posts, not anything that was already posted. Nobody submitted new entries and therefore nothing needed to be deleted.


But I checked the google cache, and posts were indeed deleted.

Why delete them in the first place?

Sapient wrote:
Quote:
Anyone reading the original thread would still believe that you guys hadn't already lost the contest.

I'll remove the info from prize 2 from the first post right now.


You don't need to remove anything. How about just restoring all the original posts?

"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into." -- Author unknown


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7522
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
Two questions for Christians

gdon wrote:

But I checked the google cache, and posts were indeed deleted.

No posts were deleted, they were moved.

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


gdon
Theist
Posts: 86
Joined: 2006-03-06
User is offlineOffline
Two questions for Christians

Sapient wrote:
gdon wrote:
Quote:

But I checked the google cache, and posts were indeed deleted.

No posts were deleted, they were moved.


Why?

I moved posts twice. Last time I moved about 5, today about 7 more.

The first time they were moved because it was peanut gallery and not merely submissions and examination of submissions (or refute/rebuttal).

Today(the second time) the remaining posts were moved because I closed the second contest officially.

Quote:
And why was there no note in the original thread that (1) posts were moved, (2) where those posts were moved to?

I don't really alert anyone to moved posts. Just ask first next time, which is exactly what the Cadre blogger should've done.

"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into." -- Author unknown


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Two questions for Christians

Actually, there was. :roll:

And what was that song? Na-na-na-na hey, hey, hey - goodbye! Laughing out loud


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7522
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
Two questions for Christians

MattShizzle wrote:

And what was that song? Na-na-na-na hey, hey, hey - goodbye! :lol:

Yeah, no shit. Buh bye now. Buh bye.

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


Nick
Posts: 187
Joined: 2006-08-01
User is offlineOffline
Two questions for Christians

What a coward. What a fool. Now he'll go spreading nonsense elsewhere. *Sigh*. You never can win, can you? No matter how logical and reasonable and honest you are, they always do the same. Run. And make excuses, while they're at it. Damn.

Wilson: "We were afraid that if you found out you solved a case with absolutely no medical evidence you'd think you were God." House: "God doesn't limp."


gdon
Theist
Posts: 86
Joined: 2006-03-06
User is offlineOffline
Two questions for Christians

gdon wrote:
Sapient wrote:
gdon wrote:
Quote:

But I checked the google cache, and posts were indeed deleted.

No posts were deleted, they were moved.


Why?

I moved posts twice. Last time I moved about 5, today about 7 more.

The first time they were moved because it was peanut gallery and not merely submissions and examination of submissions (or refute/rebuttal).

Today(the second time) the remaining posts were moved because I closed the second contest officially.

Quote:
And why was there no note in the original thread that (1) posts were moved, (2) where those posts were moved to?

I don't really alert anyone to moved posts. Just ask first next time, which is exactly what the Cadre blogger should've done.


??? I'm not sure what happened here. How did Sapient's comments end up under my name? I'll try to recreate the post.

"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into." -- Author unknown


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7522
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
Two questions for Christians

gdon wrote:

I'm not sure what happened here. How did Sapient's comments end up under my name? I'll try to recreate the post.

Damn it! I did it again. I hit "edit" instead of "quote" when responding to you. As a mod the buttons are next to each other. Sorry about that.

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


gdon
Theist
Posts: 86
Joined: 2006-03-06
User is offlineOffline
Two questions for Christians

Sapient wrote:
I don't really alert anyone to moved posts. Just ask first next time, which is exactly what the Cadre blogger should've done.

OK. I have to ask: what happened to the comment in the opening post in the competition thread? It used to have the following (my emphasis):
http://rationalresponders.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=640
___________________________

PRIZE 2: Inevitably when we ask for contemporary evidence of Jesus Christ, some unintellectual spouts off... "You'd have to be a fool to ignore the thousands of writings, evidences, blah blah blah." Yet, none of the evidences provided arise from the lifetime of Jesus. People actually want us to believe a man walked on water, rose from the dead, yada yada yada, and NOBODY wrote it down! Give us a break! However... we are not above being wrong. So, with that in mind. We are offering a $100 reward and an appearance on our radio show where we will admit we we're wrong to the person who can set a precedent that other important historical figures exist without contemporary evidence. Provide us with the names of five important historical figures that were not written about until at least 25 years after they died (like Jesus). Keep in mind, if you do this you haven't proved Jesus existed, merely a good precedent.

To sum up once again, provide us with the names of five important historical figures that nobody wrote about until 25 years after afforementioned historical figure died. If you can do this you have set a precedent that other historical figures exist without contemporary proof.

AWARD FOR SETTING PRECEDENT: $100 and appearance on our show when we put our foots in our mouths.
___________________________

Editting the opening post in a thread after the thread had reached at least its second page is not good. Was the above moved elsewhere?

Note: I've kept a copy of this post, in case it disappears again.

"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into." -- Author unknown


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7522
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
Two questions for Christians

Actually I deleted the "Prize 2" info from the first post when I moved all of the other Prize 2 stuff out of that thread, and probably should've kept it. I'll add the wording to the peanut gallery thread.

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


gdon
Theist
Posts: 86
Joined: 2006-03-06
User is offlineOffline
Two questions for Christians

MattShizzle wrote:
GDon wrote:
And why was there no note in the original thread that (1) posts were moved, (2) where those posts were moved to?
Actually, there was. :roll:

Was there? Why was it removed then? There is no link in the original thread now. http://rationalresponders.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=640

Anyone who had posted in the original thread would see that their posts had disappeared, with no indication of why and where the posts had gone.

"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into." -- Author unknown


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7522
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
Two questions for Christians

gdon wrote:

Anyone who had posted in the original thread would see that their posts had disappeared, with no indication of why and where the posts had gone.

It's the responsibility of the poster to ask or find it, before assuming they are certain they know what happened to it. We move posts all the time, we rarely tell anyone.

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


Atheist_Scathe
Posts: 69
Joined: 2006-02-14
User is offlineOffline
Two questions for Christians

KingDavid8 wrote:
gdon wrote:
KingDavid8 wrote:
But I'll also say it's hard not to get a bit defensive and reputation-oriented when I see so many people trying to attack my reputation instead of my actual arguments. I've seen a lot of people twisting my words, using insults, and leveling false accusations of dishonesty against me. The "character-concerned" part of me doesn't worry about that, since I know that these things say more about the people doing them than it does about me, but we all have a "reputation-concerned" part of us, and, in my case, it hasn't responded well.

Hi KD. As they say, "ya pays ya money and ya takes ya chances". Keep in mind that this is a "fundy atheist" board. Atheists get the same treatment on fundy theist boards. And like fundy theist boards, most of the regulars are more interested in attacking the other side than in a meeting of minds. Frustrating indeed, if you are interested in the debating process, as you clearly are. Think of them as a support group for like-minded individuals, rather than people who are interested in debates.

Then they shouldn't be calling it "Rational Responders", should they?

Quote:

Check this link out here: http://christiancadre.blogspot.com/2006/07/foolishness-from-rational-responders.html

A theist lists his experience when posting in a"$100 Jesus historicity challenge" issued by the Rational Responders. When the theist side looked like it was going to win the challenge, the moderator started to delete posts. (I checked the thread myself, and can confirm this)

If you want a good debate with knowledgeable atheists who aren't going to insult you, I strongly suggest you try the Internet Infidels at this link:
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/forumdisplay.php?f=60 The Rational Responders are considered a joke by the atheists on that forum.

Though it's been a while, I've had very good discussions at www.Theologyweb.com . I will try that forum, though.

Quote:

KingDavid8 wrote:
So if we can change things a bit here, make things a bit more friendly, then I think both sides can learn a lot about each other.

Sadly, it's not going to happen. When you consider that many of the insults come from the MODERATORS THEMSELVES, it means that that's how the board is expected to be.

True, but they should either change it or make a specific forum for friendly discussion if they really want to change believers' minds. No rational believer is going to see their behavior and think, "hmmm...these guys make a lot of sense".

Quote:

I'll PM you this post in case this one post gets deleted. Go over to the Internet Infidels -- it's a great debating board. You'll find you won't miss this forum at all. Just come back here occasionally to have a good laugh.

I'll do that. I think you're right in saying that things aren't going to change here, though if anyone here is interested in talking to me without using insults, twisting of words, or other forms of dishonesty, feel free to visit my web site, www.KingDavid8.com and contact me through it.

Bye, everyone. I'm gone.

David

Sorry to hear that. I actually enjoyed our little discussions, and I've meant to get back to you for about a week now (pressing issues here), although you were more than just a little disingenious at times. Best of wishes, mate, ~Atheist_Scathe