Predestination and Human Choice

JesusSaves
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Predestination and Human Choice

what is your view on it? I will post mine.. as I am studying it right now. not being forced to study it but free willing studying it.

so what is it?

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


JesusSaves
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Predestination and Human Choice

will say this, God who is all-powerful in the universe, has foreknon and predestined the course of human history and the lives of individuals. If God was not incontrol of the events, He wouldn't be sovereign and, so there for, would not be God.

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


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Predestination and Human Choice

JesusSaves wrote:
will say this, God who is all-powerful in the universe, has foreknon and predestined the course of human history and the lives of individuals. If God was not incontrol of the events, He wouldn't be sovereign and, so there for, would not be God.

Do you believe your god is all loving?

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JesusSaves
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Predestination and Human Choice

what do you mean by all-loving?

who God is?

Holy

Wise

Good

Just

Loving

would like to stick on the topic...

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


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Predestination and Human Choice

JesusSaves wrote:

Loving

Do you think it's loving to allow certain people to go to a hell in which you know before their life begins they will go there?

Do you think it's loving to create hell?

Do you think it's loving to know that certain people would need a certain amount of proof to believe in God, yet that proof isn't provided, and therefore those people are predestined for hell?

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Predestination and Human Choice

Not to mention he'd know beforehand of all the people, including children and babies who would die in horrific ways, including of the cancers he created.

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Predestination and Human Choice

MattShizzle wrote:
Not to mention he'd know beforehand of all the people, including children and babies who would die in horrific ways, including of the cancers he created.

Oh there are countless, things that would render God unloving that had nothing to do with free will. For example all natural disasters: hurricanes, earthquakes, floods, tsunamis. Even the story of Noah's Ark.

Think about Noah's Ark, JS. If God knew before he created mankind that he would need to kill everyone (except Noah and Co.) off in a worldwide flood, the loving thing to do is to revise your creation slightly so this disgusting attrocity would never have to happen. This flood would have been the most vile, heinous, disgusting, violent, and attrocius crime the world has ever known. There is so much blood on Gods hands that he can't be loving and all knowing at the same time... unless of course we redefine love to mean the opposite of how we see it.

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JesusSaves
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Predestination and Human Choice

Quote:
Do you think it's loving to allow certain people to go to a hell in which you know before their life begins they will go there?

I think with Gods all-knowing knowledge, He knew who would serve Him and who wouldn't serve Him.
so therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.

underlining meaning that God allowed sin to run its course as an act of judgment.

Quote:
Do you think it's loving to create hell?

I believe it is loving.. isn't love that your parents discipline you when you do wrong? would it be loving if a judge allowed a murderer lose?

Quote:
Do you think it's loving to know that certain people would need a certain amount of proof to believe in God, yet that proof isn't provided, and therefore those people are predestined for hell?

I think those certain amount of people look for the creation rather than looking at the creator.

according to the Bible

from the very beginning God predestined to save humankind by sending His Son to accomplish salvation. Thus, "God would have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth" 1 tim 2:4

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


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Predestination and Human Choice

Sapient wrote:
MattShizzle wrote:
Not to mention he'd know beforehand of all the people, including children and babies who would die in horrific ways, including of the cancers he created.

Oh there are countless, things that would render God unloving that had nothing to do with free will. For example all natural disasters: hurricanes, earthquakes, floods, tsunamis. Even the story of Noah's Ark.

Think about Noah's Ark, JS. If God knew before he created mankind that he would need to kill everyone (except Noah and Co.) off in a worldwide flood, the loving thing to do is to revise your creation slightly so this disgusting attrocity would never have to happen. This flood would have been the most vile, heinous, disgusting, violent, and attrocius crime the world has ever known. There is so much blood on Gods hands that he can't be loving and all knowing at the same time... unless of course we redefine love to mean the opposite of how we see it.

the problem with this is that God gave them a chance to be saved.. but chosed not to. which reminds me of a joke

There was a heavy rain and evacuation was ordered. A firetruck came to assist an elderly woman...."No thank you. God will save me"

The water continues to rise...a boat happens along and yells to her to get in "No thank you. God will save me."

Water is real high now and she's on her roof.....a helicopter comes by..."No thank you. God will save me"

Well....this lady eventually drowns and when she meets the Lord, she says " Lord, why did you let me die..I had Faith you would save me"

God says.." I sent a firetruck, a boat, a helicopter....."

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


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Predestination and Human Choice

I always have to laugh at that garbage comparing a parents discipline with hell! Most parents don't even spank nowadays, and you want to compare eternal torture with discipline???? That's about the most ridiculous thing I ever heard in my life! And the whole Noah's ark story: On Dan Barker's "Beware of Dogma" CD, there's a reading of the story of Noah's ark (from a critical point of view.) It ends with "And of course Noah knew that nobody would ever sin again. Otherwise, the whole flood would have been a complete waste of time, and a great embarrasment to God!" Laughing out loud

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JesusSaves
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well the point of the parent discipline is to say that:

God wouldn't be loving if he allowed corruption to go free.

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


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Predestination and Human Choice

The whole idea of hell is a punishment way out of proportion to any possible offense. Even for Adolph Hitler, eternal torture would be excessive. And people would get this simply because they weren't convinced God exists? Isn't this pretty much the adult version of "If you don't believe in Santa, you won't get any toys?" Laughing out loud

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Predestination and Human Choice

JesusSaves wrote:

I believe it is loving.. isn't love that your parents discipline you when you do wrong?

Yes. Is it loving if those parents put you into the fireplace and allowed you to burn to death while you scream in agony?

Quote:
would it be loving if a judge allowed a murderer lose?

Question is moot and not on topic considering not everyone who would go to hell in your gods eyes are murderers.

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Predestination and Human Choice

JesusSaves wrote:

I think with Gods all-knowing knowledge, He knew who would serve Him and who wouldn't serve Him.
so therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.

underlining meaning that God allowed sin to run its course as an act of judgment.

So wait, that God still knew who would sin and would serve him had the balls to say he gave everyone free will? Either god is omniscient and there is no free will (since he already knows who will sin and who won't) or God doesn't know what people will do thanks to their free will, and thus God isn't omniscient (and thus not all-powerful).

Silliness.

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Another problem is that when a parent disciplines a child, the idea is to improve them. Obviously, if hell is eternal, that can't be the case here! And you can't say the threat of hell does that, because anyone who doesn't believe in God isn't going to believe in hell, either. By any sane, logical, unbiased analysis, the doctrine of hell is an extremely cruel idea.

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Quote:
Yes. Is it loving if those parents put you into the fireplace and allowed you to burn to death while you scream in agony?

no that wouldn't be disciplining at all, the point of disciplining is to teach. so Hell and discipline wouldn't be connected here.

would it be a corruption to let a "lawbreaker" go?

what if the lawbreaker committed a serious crime? like murder person and then the judge said you are free. no reason. without any consequences he does it again. wouldn't he?
God wouldn't be a JUST God if He allowed sinners to just go free. But that is why He Himself came down paid the debt for us all, you may choose to accept Him or you may not. He, Jesus Christ, came and took our sins away.
there God took it appon Himself to take care of the sin problem.

How can God be a Just and at the same time still Love?

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


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Quote:
So wait, that God still knew who would sin and would serve him had the balls to say he gave everyone free will? Either god is omniscient and there is no free will (since he already knows who will sin and who won't) or God doesn't know what people will do thanks to their free will, and thus God isn't omniscient (and thus not all-powerful).

Silliness.

God predestination of human events does not eliminate human choice.
according to what I've been reading there are two views of predestination:

calvinism and Arminianism

1 is calvinism- God offers irresistible grace to those whom he elects to save.

in this choice God chooses the believer

2. Arminianism-- God's grace is the source of redemption but that it can be resisted by people through free choice

in this choice the believer chooses God

Christians would agree that creation is moving into the purpose of God which is complete comformity.

No person deserves salvation. but Gods grace is universal. His salvation is for everyone who believes.

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


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JesusSaves wrote:
Quote:
Yes. Is it loving if those parents put you into the fireplace and allowed you to burn to death while you scream in agony?

no that wouldn't be disciplining at all, the point of disciplining is to teach. so Hell and discipline wouldn't be connected here.

Maybe you shouldn't have made the correlation then.

Quote:
would it be a corruption to let a "lawbreaker" go?

Not if the lawbreakers sentence is complete. Do all lawbreakers get lifetime sentences? Again your analogy fails, because often the purpose of jail is to rehabilitate. The purpose of hell is to eternally punish people that god created with the intent of torturing them eternally. Your god is not loving, and therefore the bible is fake.

Quote:
But that is why He Himself came down paid the debt for us all, you may choose to accept Him or you may not. He, Jesus Christ, came and took our sins away.

You must ask yourself why an all knowing and loving God would need to come down to sacrifice himself to himself so that others can escape the wrath of himself.

Quote:
How can God be a Just and at the same time still Love?

Very easily. Make the punishments fit the crimes, just like loving parents do for their children to teach them right from wrong. However what we see with god is eternal punishment for even the smallest sins, like not believing in him, for example. Your God supposedly created us with these brains, knowing how we would use them, and then he punishes us eternally for his mistakes (knowing we wouldn't believe because we'd be too smart too). This god wouldn't be defined as loving, he would be defined as evil, sadistic, heinous, manic depressive, meglamaniacal, and hateful. Love wouldn't even cross my mind when describing him, to ascribe love to your god is completely ignorant and irrational.

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JesusSaves
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Quote:
Maybe you shouldn't have made the correlation then.

Quote:
Not if the lawbreakers sentence is complete. Do all lawbreakers get lifetime sentences? Again your analogy fails, because often the purpose of jail is to rehabilitate. The purpose of hell is to eternally punish people that god created with the intent of torturing them eternally. Your god is not loving, and therefore the bible is fake.

no I mean set free without doing any time at all.. and yeah I know not all lawbreakers do anything serious. but that is in our eyes where we set the limits of what is considered right or wrong. what is considered as a human being? is it someone who is smart like bill gates if that is considered as a good human being then a bad human being must be someone who is mentally retarded. but a sin is a sin in Gods eyes. stealing is stealing no matter what.. the only sin that isn't forgiveable is rejecting the Holy Spirit.

well the purpose for hell was to set apart the unclean from the clean. if you understand what I am saying.

Quote:
You must ask yourself why an all knowing and loving God would need to come down to sacrifice himself to himself so that others can escape the wrath of himself.

well because no one oculd bare there sins.. we are all unclean fallen sinners. who need to be dust off. so Christ came down to do that. without Christ we are not saved. He is our only mediator

Quote:
Very easily. Make the punishments fit the crimes, just like loving parents do for their children to teach them right from wrong. However what we see with god is eternal punishment for even the smallest sins, like not believing in him, for example. Your God supposedly created us with these brains, knowing how we would use them, and then he punishes us eternally for his mistakes (knowing we wouldn't believe because we'd be too smart too). This god wouldn't be defined as loving, he would be defined as evil, sadistic, heinous, manic depressive, meglamaniacal, and hateful. Love wouldn't even cross my mind when describing him, to ascribe love to your god is completely ignorant and irrational

again humans look at it as a big sin and a small sin... people would rather hang out with the one who lies little than the one who lies a lot.. what for they are both liars the one who is a liar is capable of lieing agian.
well, when you mean believing do you mean at a knowledgable believing in him? for that isn't what you want.. for satan and the demons know God so that must mean that he is saved.

no worries even the jews had the same problem:

there are three kinds of beliefs

John 6:28-35

a inherited- 6:30 had inherited beliefs didn't believe because reality but tradition

intellectual- mind- 6:30- they wanted to believe in their heads.

then the you have the
Intimate knowledge- In the heart relationship rather than religion
6:32-35

but even still when you don't put your trust( its the fatono type love, brotherly love) in what Jesus did on the cross and that He rosed agian and that God also who raised Christ from the dead will raise you up. then yes you have a problem you are basically saying you can take your sin to God Himself.

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


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I already said I reject the holy spirit! Laughing out loud


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JesusSaves, in order to PERMANENTLY put out your all-loving-God argument, I will make a comparison. Consider it the loving parent vs. loving god comparison, that goes like this:

- loving parent does not know child mistakes, loving god does
- loving parent tries to correct the mistake AT THAT POINT, loving god doesn't do anything
- if mistake is bad enough, loving parent applies punishment, loving god doesn't necessarily (you can be forgiven in the face of god if you kill your baby brother with a pillow)
- if mistake isn't as the type described above, loving parent applies punishment that ends, so does loving god, but his punishment does not end
- loving parent applies punishment with the purpose of forcing the child to admit and correct (if possible) his error, why loving god applies punishment truly evades me, since there is nothing else left after punishment begins

So stop the bullshit that God is so all-loving. My parents are far better tan your God.

Quote:
well the purpose for hell was to set apart the unclean from the clean. if you understand what I am saying.

And what would be the purpose of that exactly ?

Quote:
well because no one oculd bare there sins.. we are all unclean fallen sinners. who need to be dust off. so Christ came down to do that. without Christ we are not saved. He is our only mediator

Couldn't God have simply forgiven us? What was the point of the death/resurrection sharade? I fairly doubt that in the face of an omniscient, omnipotent God (though this is in itself a paradox), a "mediator" as you call it really would make any difference at all.

Quote:
again humans look at it as a big sin and a small sin... people would rather hang out with the one who lies little than the one who lies a lot.. what for they are both liars the one who is a liar is capable of lieing agian.

It's funny, you know... by this quote you describe the Roman law system. Again, the point of the last post remains.

Quote:
well, when you mean believing do you mean at a knowledgable believing in him? for that isn't what you want.. for satan and the demons know God so that must mean that he is saved.

Well than why do you not address this little paradox you've just brought us? No worries, I will do that for you:
Quote:
inherited- 6:30 had inherited beliefs didn't believe because reality but tradition
I strongly believe this is the only valid belief. Should you have been raised by a Muslim family, you would be a Muslim.
Quote:
intellectual- mind- 6:30- they wanted to believe in their heads.
...but did they succeed?
Quote:
Intimate knowledge- In the heart relationship rather than religion
And how do you know that it is not the devil that is settled down in your heart and is tempting you to believe that you love an all-loving, etc. God, and, through this optics, do Crusades and Djihads, etc. ? Because frankly, this option seems to be the most likely, considering (not only) recent events.

Awaiting response.

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Predestination and Human Choice

Quote:
JesusSaves, in order to PERMANENTLY put out your all-loving-God argument, I will make a comparison. Consider it the loving parent vs. loving god comparison, that goes like this.

I never said that God is ALL-loving.

Quote:
And what would be the purpose of that exactly?

in a way like Jail is for criminals (or suppost to be) same is for hell. if you had all the criminals running lose then your not setting limits to what is suppost to be excepted.

Quote:
I strongly believe this is the only valid belief. Should you have been raised by a Muslim family, you would be a Muslim.

I don't think inherited beliefs would be a valid case. its kind of like two parents each have brown hair and blue eyes what is the possibility that the child will have the same? slim.
your not saved because of someone else. but by you. kind of like its not because of your brother that your a child of your mom but its because of you that makes you a child of your mom.

Quote:
but did they succeed?

what do you mean succeed?

Quote:
And how do you know that it is not the devil that is settled down in your heart and is tempting you to believe that you love an all-loving, etc. God, and, through this optics, do Crusades and Djihads, etc. ? Because frankly, this option seems to be the most likely, considering (not only) recent events.

please elaborate a little more.

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


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JesusSaves wrote:
I never said that God is ALL-loving.

Interesting. Who does he hate then? Who is he indifferent to? I'd really love your God to be perfectly indifferent to MY future or status, and just let me simply stay dead after I die.
JesusSaves wrote:

in a way like Jail is for criminals (or suppost to be) same is for hell. if you had all the criminals running lose then your not setting limits to what is suppost to be excepted.

Well, you see, here is the main difference between you and me, I presume. I live in a judicial system where death penalty exists for just one thing (severe crimes against humanity), life sentence exists for only three things (minor crimes against humanity, crimes against the nation and gruesome murder), and the maximal sentence is, if I remember correctly, 25 years. Our system is based on the possibility of human redemption. You stole, OK, you pay your penalty, but after that, you have the chance of starting your life again as an equal member of society. Our system is not necessarily based on punishing the guilty and that's it, but also to rehabilitation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the USA, if you go and break the windows of 20 cars, you are convicted for 20 crimes. Here you are convicted for only one. There are differences, however, no system actually condemns a person for eternity except for God's system.

Hell is not a prison. In prisons, you do not keep people for eternity. And theoretically at least, you do not torture them for eternity. Plus: I cannot understand why Torquemada (the famous leader of the Spanish Inquisition, for those who don't know) is more worthy of Heaven than someone who simply doubts God's existance, but is perfectly honest and kind otherwise.

JesusSaves wrote:

I don't think inherited beliefs would be a valid case. its kind of like two parents each have brown hair and blue eyes what is the possibility that the child will have the same? slim.

Actually, the chances for the opposite to happen are pretty slim. But let's not get into genetics, you are not ENDOWED with belief in God. All new-born are atheists, since they cannot possibly understand what this "God" can be. Therefore, your example isn't exactly the best one.

Please tell me that if you were taught from 1 year-old onwards that it's bad to pick your nose, and were repressed every time you did that, you wouldn't feel even now a sense of uneasiness while taking your finger up your nasal cavities.

JesusSaves wrote:

your not saved because of someone else. but by you. kind of like its not because of your brother that your a child of your mom but its because of you that makes you a child of your mom.

Of course. Your brother didn't teach you about God, your parents did (generally). Thank you for making my point valid.
JesusSaves wrote:

what do you mean succeed?

Nevermind.
JesusSaves wrote:

Quote:
And how do you know that it is not the devil that is settled down in your heart and is tempting you to believe that you love an all-loving, etc. God, and, through this optics, do Crusades and Djihads, etc. ? Because frankly, this option seems to be the most likely, considering (not only) recent events.

please elaborate a little more.


Simple. There have been Crusades, Djihads, the Inquisition, etc. These should not be acceptable by the way you are presenting God. So, how do you know it wasn't Satan that ordered them, and that he didn't mask himself so that the orders appeared to come from God? On this matter, an interesting idea to read: Clive Barker - Children of the Corn (or watch the movie).

The option that what has happened during history and the thoughts that fanatics today have are actually coming from the Devil and are masked to look like they are coming from God seems a lot more likely than otherwise. How can you be sure of the truth ? Answer that to me.

PS: Sorry for the late reply. I was busy these nights (I went into two night-time photo shoots for a local club, and had to keep on taking pictures till 6-7 in the morning)

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JesusSaves wrote:
Sapient wrote:
MattShizzle wrote:
Not to mention he'd know beforehand of all the people, including children and babies who would die in horrific ways, including of the cancers he created.

Oh there are countless, things that would render God unloving that had nothing to do with free will. For example all natural disasters: hurricanes, earthquakes, floods, tsunamis. Even the story of Noah's Ark.

Think about Noah's Ark, JS. If God knew before he created mankind that he would need to kill everyone (except Noah and Co.) off in a worldwide flood, the loving thing to do is to revise your creation slightly so this disgusting attrocity would never have to happen. This flood would have been the most vile, heinous, disgusting, violent, and attrocius crime the world has ever known. There is so much blood on Gods hands that he can't be loving and all knowing at the same time... unless of course we redefine love to mean the opposite of how we see it.

the problem with this is that God gave them a chance to be saved.. but chosed not to. which reminds me of a joke

There was a heavy rain and evacuation was ordered. A firetruck came to assist an elderly woman...."No thank you. God will save me"

The water continues to rise...a boat happens along and yells to her to get in "No thank you. God will save me."

Water is real high now and she's on her roof.....a helicopter comes by..."No thank you. God will save me"

Well....this lady eventually drowns and when she meets the Lord, she says " Lord, why did you let me die..I had Faith you would save me"

God says.." I sent a firetruck, a boat, a helicopter....."

I dont think its a joke when 90% of my city flooded, not counting my family memebers who died. I suppose my family didnt worship him enough to live, right? All the years my grandfather sereved the Chruch, the money he gave, etc. And your God let him drowned? I dont think thats a loving God. I think thats called BULLSHIT.


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I present a simple question in answer to your views on how we are predestined. God is omniscient, god is omnipotent. If got is omniscient, that means that he knows everything that has and will happen without fail. This means that God is NOT omnipotent, because he would be unable to change the course of events that are predestined already. Of course, you could claim that if God wanted to change things he could, but that would destroy his omnipotence thing, because if he was omnipotent why would he need to change anything? His omnipotence is completely controlled by his omniscience, and vice versa.


Yellow_Number_Five
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Predestination and Human Choice

test?


GrimJesta
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Predestination and Human Choice

JesusSaves wrote:
Quote:
So wait, that God still knew who would sin and would serve him had the balls to say he gave everyone free will? Either god is omniscient and there is no free will (since he already knows who will sin and who won't) or God doesn't know what people will do thanks to their free will, and thus God isn't omniscient (and thus not all-powerful).

Silliness.

God predestination of human events does not eliminate human choice.
according to what I've been reading there are two views of predestination:

calvinism and Arminianism

1 is calvinism- God offers irresistible grace to those whom he elects to save.

in this choice God chooses the believer

2. Arminianism-- God's grace is the source of redemption but that it can be resisted by people through free choice

in this choice the believer chooses God

Christians would agree that creation is moving into the purpose of God which is complete comformity.

No person deserves salvation. but Gods grace is universal. His salvation is for everyone who believes.

God's predestination actual does limit human choice. Predestiny means that no matter what you do you're heading towards your fated end.

God already knows who will reject "Him", so the believer has no choice to reject him or not. God knows from the get go what you will do, yet this being supposedly allows for "free will"? Not even close. Even in the above examples you cite, there is still no free will. Unless god isn't omniscient, but then it isn't god.

Calling this all free will is like strapping a kid to an electric chair, pulling the switch, and then yelling at him for dying/driving up your electrical bill.

-=Grim=-

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Know Nyarlathotep, No Peace.


JesusSaves
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Predestination and Human Choice

Hey Guys, sorry for being to slow on the response, unfortunately I've been kind of sick, caught the common cold Evil . but when I am a lot better I will get back to yalls questions. thanks

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


GrimJesta
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Predestination and Human Choice

Feel better dude. I know the feeling. I just got over a stomach bug. Blegh.

:smt078 <---Grim

-=Grim=-

No Nyarlathotep, Know Peace.
Know Nyarlathotep, No Peace.


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Re: Predestination and Human Choice


Freedom and determinism live compatibly with each other because to make workable choices one must have reliable and predictable (determined) choices to choose from!

If determinism holds true, then you have less randomness, less unpredictability. In a totally random universe, you can't have freedom because you can never know or predict the future in a reliable way. Now of course our universe contains both deterministic elements and random elements, and no doubt you need both for an evolutionary system to work, but the point aims to show that determinism does not mean inevitable, or fate.

Fatalism claims that something will happen no matter what you do (a godly plan, many times, plays this role).

Determinism depends on what you do.

A bullet traveling along a trajectory may very well hit its target if you do nothing about it (a deterministic example) but if you deflect its path you can change its deterministic path into another deterministic path. Get it?


JesusSaves
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Predestination and Human Choice

I will say one thing before I go back to the question of rigor_mortis, I've been thinking a lot lately, and it seems most even Christians only look at predestination as there being 1 person involved. infact, don't take me as a fool for saying this(its only how I am currently trying to grasp this).

But what if one person went to the airport wanting to get on a airplane but instead he was rejected.

now if we had no freedom at all we wouldn't feel horrible for not getting on the airplane.

who did God predestined? the person who rejected the guy or the guy who was rejected who God predestined for him to actually get on?
(sorry, my example is a little off, its one of those things where I can see it in my mind what I want to say but then when I say it. its not coming out right).

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


JesusSaves
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Predestination and Human Choice

Quote:
Interesting. Who does he hate then? Who is he indifferent to? I'd really love your God to be perfectly indifferent to MY future or status, and just let me simply stay dead after I die.

well He doesn't hate anyone I personally think, but I don't think He would be counted as one who is ALL-loving. idk just what I think. he does have justice and other atributes to him.

Quote:
Well, you see, here is the main difference between you and me, I presume. I live in a judicial system where death penalty exists for just one thing (severe crimes against humanity), life sentence exists for only three things (minor crimes against humanity, crimes against the nation and gruesome murder), and the maximal sentence is, if I remember correctly, 25 years. Our system is based on the possibility of human redemption. You stole, OK, you pay your penalty, but after that, you have the chance of starting your life again as an equal member of society. Our system is not necessarily based on punishing the guilty and that's it, but also to rehabilitation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the USA, if you go and break the windows of 20 cars, you are convicted for 20 crimes. Here you are convicted for only one. There are differences, however, no system actually condemns a person for eternity except for God's system.

Hell is not a prison. In prisons, you do not keep people for eternity. And theoretically at least, you do not torture them for eternity. Plus: I cannot understand why Torquemada (the famous leader of the Spanish Inquisition, for those who don't know) is more worthy of Heaven than someone who simply doubts God's existance, but is perfectly honest and kind otherwise.

yeah I know Jail isn't a good analogy of hell but it is close to what we set up. which is to seperate the criminals from the non-criminals.
a sinner can enter heaven as long as they trust in the work that Jesus did on the cross that did it. but a perfectly honest and kind man/women without faith is dead.

I think that is what seperates most religions from Christianity or atleast muslims and Christianity. if its by works that you get into heaven - then 1. where do you define the line of when your counted as passing or when your counting as failing? can you fail once and still get into heaven or what?. 2. some people from most religions or atleast from muslim beliefs do it out of fear (though they won't honestly say it.) but many follow a belief because they fear they will be rejected by their families and or country.

Quote:
Actually, the chances for the opposite to happen are pretty slim. But let's not get into genetics, you are not ENDOWED with belief in God. All new-born are atheists, since they cannot possibly understand what this "God" can be. Therefore, your example isn't exactly the best one.

well I think, if I remember, that both options are slim.

my personal beliefs on baptism not sure who has what on it. but I think you shouldn't baptize a infant since they cannot make their own hand work(meaning it wouldn't be their choice of wanting Jesus Christ in their life). I think its best to baptize someone when they are old enough to understand and when they want to not when you want them to.

Quote:
Of course. Your brother didn't teach you about God, your parents did (generally). Thank you for making my point valid.

I didn't mean it like that. but you knew that

Quote:
Simple. There have been Crusades, Djihads, the Inquisition, etc. These should not be acceptable by the way you are presenting God. So, how do you know it wasn't Satan that ordered them, and that he didn't mask himself so that the orders appeared to come from God? On this matter, an interesting idea to read: Clive Barker - Children of the Corn (or watch the movie).

The option that what has happened during history and the thoughts that fanatics today have are actually coming from the Devil and are masked to look like they are coming from God seems a lot more likely than otherwise. How can you be sure of the truth ? Answer that to me.

you bring up a good question for me, which I am not willing to answer, but give me a while I will get my thoughts around this. cause I don't want to answer this the wrong way. thanks for your patience.

Quote:

PS: Sorry for the late reply. I was busy these nights (I went into two night-time photo shoots for a local club, and had to keep on taking pictures till 6-7 in the morning)

its ok, I probally won't be on much nowadays.

"God didn't send us a doctrine to learn, or a religion to live, or a philosophy to debate. He sent us a brother to love, a madman to trust, a servant to serve, and a mystery to embrace." ~Steven James, STORY


GrimJesta
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Predestination and Human Choice

JesusSaves wrote:

well He doesn't hate anyone I personally think, but I don't think He would be counted as one who is ALL-loving. idk just what I think. he does have justice and other atributes to him.

(1) If you don't know what you think about a thing, why believe in it?
(2) If you don't know what you think about something, how do you know he has Justice and these other attributes? There's an awful lot of uncertainty here for such a strong and influential worldview.
(3) Justice is a relative term. There is no "absolute Justice" unless to prescribe to John Rawls' "Teory of Justice" (fantastic book), which if you do that then there is no room for Hell.

JesusSaves wrote:

a sinner can enter heaven as long as they trust in the work that Jesus did on the cross that did it. but a perfectly honest and kind man/women without faith is dead...

(1) So Buddhists and Taoists are going to Hell because they don't trust in the "work" Jesus did on the cross? Some God...

JesusSaves wrote:
my personal beliefs on baptism not sure who has what on it. but I think you shouldn't baptize a infant since they cannot make their own hand work(meaning it wouldn't be their choice of wanting Jesus Christ in their life). I think its best to baptize someone when they are old enough to understand and when they want to not when you want them to.

I thought Baptism for an infant was for "original sin", washing away the sin so the kid can not go to purgatory or Hell (or something like that) should he or she die before Communion and Confirmation?

JesusSaves wrote:

you bring up a good question for me, which I am not willing to answer, but give me a while I will get my thoughts around this. cause I don't want to answer this the wrong way. thanks for your patience... its ok, I probally won't be on much nowadays.

You're not willing to answer it? Or you will answer it after you thought about it for a day or two? The former I'd take as running away from a losing argument after being backed into a corner. The latter is understandable. But the phrase is worded a bit strangely. You do mean that you'll eventually try to answer it, right? I'd like to see how you answer the quetion posed. Especially if you can do it without the "faith cop-out" answers.

-=Grim=-

No Nyarlathotep, Know Peace.
Know Nyarlathotep, No Peace.