What moves atheists to tears?

sugarfree
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What moves atheists to tears?

Well, I had an interesting experience on Sunday. I was singing on the vocal team at my church for the Easter service. I get teary sometimes, because of the words and power of the music along with it, sometimes it becomes overwhelming, in a good, but also very humbling way. On Sunday, I made it thru all the songs, but the last one was a traditional spiritual. A very simple song, simple melody, but quite beautiful melody, at that...with some interesting minor/jazz chords thrown in.

The second verse..."Were you there when they nailed Him to the tree"...then the third verse..."Were you there when they laid him in the tomb," and I felt it coming...not just tears, sobs...in front of 250 or so people. This is not how I wanted it to happen, I don't relish allowing 250 people to see my weakness, but the truth of those lyrics, so simple, so incredibly profound. I couldn't sing anymore, I just looked down...and...bawled. But you know what? The fact that I was in front of all those people, it doesn't really matter. I knew they would not judge me.

The reality of those words is what caused me to sob. Jesus was brutally beaten, disgraced, humiliated, his hands were nailed...and then He, God, died a human death. A more horrible death than any of us will experience. And he walked into that situation, willingly, for me. In the process of walking to his death, He spoke volumes about the character of God. And if we so chose, we can learn about God by studying how Christ died...and lived. He did all this, so 2000 years later, a person like me can know God personally. Intimately.

Now, you all will tear this post apart, say, I made all this up in my mind. It was the music, the setting, all the people around me... You all can look in from the outside and criticize. But it's okay. Because what I experienced in that moment, as I fully understood what Christ did for me, was Truth. And this Truth is so magnificent that everything you throw at me pales in comparison.


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You're making a lot of

You're making a lot of assumptions - that the story of the crucifiction is true, Jesus really existed, he really was God/the son of God, etc. Many people are able to cry at sad movies, songs,Stories etc even when they know for a fact it is fiction.

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Some people who die of

Some people who die of cancer or other terrible diseases have EXTREMELY painful experiences lasting for months!
Through out history many people have had deaths just as bad as Jesus' or even worse, and many of them voluntarily because of their beliefs.

I feel sickened to think about what some people in the past did to others, but why is the Jesus story special? It's a lot less historically verifiable, and the only person who really suffers, is apparently divine and rises from the dead 3 days later.

I find the stories of atrocities that happened in the concentration camps FAR FAR more upsetting!

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Do you deny that people of

Do you deny that people of all religions and of no religion can be emotionally overwhelmed by certain things? If not, I fail to see your point.


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MattShizzle wrote: You're

MattShizzle wrote:

You're making a lot of assumptions - that the story of the crucifiction is true, Jesus really existed, he really was God/the son of God, etc. Many people are able to cry at sad movies, songs,Stories etc even when they know for a fact it is fiction.

Good point.  Excellent point, in fact.

I don't like to admit this because people have laughed at me, but for some reason the movie Return of the King really, really got to me. I cried all the way through that movie and couldn't turn off the water works.  I went home and tried to sleep. I couldn't.  And no, I don't often go on crying jags.  Maybe that's why I couldn't stop.

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sugarfree wrote: Now, you

sugarfree wrote:
Now, you all will tear this post apart, say, I made all this up in my mind. It was the music, the setting, all the people around me... You all can look in from the outside and criticize. But it's okay. Because what I experienced in that moment, as I fully understood what Christ did for me, was Truth. And this Truth is so magnificent that everything you throw at me pales in comparison.

I'm curious why you felt a need to post that when you know everyone here (excluding perhaps, the various theists) is probably going to roll their eyes. 

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sugarfree wrote:

sugarfree wrote:
The reality of those words is what caused me to sob. Jesus was brutally beaten, disgraced, humiliated, his hands were nailed...and then He, God, died a human death. A more horrible death than any of us will experience. And he walked into that situation, willingly, for me. In the process of walking to his death, He spoke volumes about the character of God. And if we so chose, we can learn about God by studying how Christ died...and lived. He did all this, so 2000 years later, a person like me can know God personally.

It caused you to sob knowing god(himself), sent himself(jesus) to be a sacrifice to himself(god), for rules he himself(god) set up. Hmmmm.

Additionally, if you truly believe christ was god and you believe god is eternal(he has always existed and will exist forever), the time frame he actually felt pain would be equivalent to you getting a finger prick. The pain would have seemed less than seconds long. Hmmm.

sugarfree wrote:
And he walked into that situation, willingly, for me.

Willingly? Isn't it written in your holy text some of his last words were, "Father, why for art thou forsaken me" or something along those lines. This is perplexing because if he is god, he should know why he sent himself to be forsaken.

That whole murder story of christos death is rather perplexing.


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sugarfree wrote: It was

sugarfree wrote:
It was the music, the setting, all the people around me... You all can look in from the outside and criticize. But it's okay. Because what I experienced in that moment, as I fully understood what Christ did for me, was Truth. And this Truth is so magnificent that everything you throw at me pales in comparison.

Actually, it could have been the music. Google "music and emotions" and you'll get a ton of sites that deal with this very topic.  Music does affect our emotions.  Why do you think movies have musical sound tracks?

Music also has the power to break down inhibitions.  (Google that, too.)  I don't know how many sermons I sat through as a Christian (Baptist, Foursquare, non-denominational, etc.) that ended with closed eyes and the congregation singing "Just as I Am."  Music can be manipulative.

That said, I'm studying music formally, hoping to eventually add a music major to my degree.  I'd like to study up a bit on how music affects us.  It sounds like a fascinating topic.

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Are you saying that this is

Are you saying that this is the only thing that moves people to tears? I really don't see the point here. I get moved like that during the beginning of PSU football games, buy hey whatever floats your boat man.

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Sugarfree, it is obvious

Sugarfree, it is obvious that you did have an emotional experience and that is fine. Let me turn the tables. Would you cry if your child were murdered or would you be thrilled since that child is now in heaven (assuming he/she believed) and is with jesus? Without assuming too much my guess is that you would miss your child terribly and reconcile with god once your anger and grief passed. An atheist would do the same thing except reconcile with god. We would move on with our lives the same as you would. The actions are the same, you simply keep adding an extra step.

 

I do not mean to be disrespectful, but your thread seems ridiculous to me. Many things move people to tears. Child abuse, animal abuse, murder, rape, genocide, extreme ignorance...all of these things move me to tears as do songs related to them.


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First, and importantly, to

First, and importantly, to quote the rambling but likeable "ourben" from YouTube, in response to Brett Keane, "Atheism is not a fucking -ISM!" There is only one point on which we can necessarily agree, and that's the improbability of religious propositions. You may as well ask whether people who drive blue cars like cilantro.
The rest of the post is an argument based entirely in subjectivity. There are people tormented by the conviction that the CIA is listening to their throughts through their teeth. Your certainty, as it was every single tiresome time you cited it before, is irrelevant.


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Simply, I am repulsed by the

Simply, I am repulsed by the arrogance of those people that think Jesus's sufferings were special in some way.


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Contrary to your claim, it

Contrary to your claim, it seems like you were not embarrassed by breaking down and sobbing. The fact that you post it here seems to indicate that you are proud of it, and you want to be admired for your humility and piety, and your willingness to be 'torn apart' by us to offer your testimony.

Ah, well, whatever...

To answer the question, I love singing, and I love listening to a pretty voice singing. Both of these things can lead me to tear up.

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I cried at the end of

I cried at the end of Terminator 2.


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Actually, to answer the

Actually, to answer the original question, dealing with the same irrational arguments from theists over and over and over again can move me to tears. Not referring to this thread by the way.

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jce wrote: I do not mean to

jce wrote:
I do not mean to be disrespectful, but your thread seems ridiculous to me. Many things move people to tears. Child abuse, animal abuse, murder, rape, genocide, extreme ignorance...all of these things move me to tears as do songs related to them.

I'm not surprised that it sounds ridiculous to you.

I guess what I am wondering, tho, is, in your life, do you have anything that makes you feel so small and humble, yet at the same time, so important and special? My tears weren't grief tears necessarily...which would be the types of tears shed for those things you mentioned above. Or maybe they were grief tears, but mixed with a profound thankfulness. Because, when considering what Christ did on the cross, it really isn't possible to separate the two. So maybe I should ask, what are atheist profoundly thankful for, that moves them to tears?


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rexlunae wrote: Contrary to

rexlunae wrote:
Contrary to your claim, it seems like you were not embarrassed by breaking down and sobbing. The fact that you post it here seems to indicate that you are proud of it, and you want to be admired for your humility and piety, and your willingness to be 'torn apart' by us to offer your testimony.

Ah, well, whatever...

To answer the question, I love singing, and I love listening to a pretty voice singing. Both of these things can lead me to tear up.

rexlunae, you have a unique talent for twisting the positive into negative. I am simply curious about you...what is your life like? What about the atheist life humbles you, makes you thankful? What do your most meaningful moments consist of? What about them is meaningful to you?


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sugarfree wrote: jce

sugarfree wrote:
jce wrote:
I do not mean to be disrespectful, but your thread seems ridiculous to me. Many things move people to tears. Child abuse, animal abuse, murder, rape, genocide, extreme ignorance...all of these things move me to tears as do songs related to them.

 

I'm not surprised that it sounds ridiculous to you. I guess what I am wondering, tho, is, in your life, do you have anything that makes you feel so small and humble, yet at the same time, so important and special?

Yes. The universe makes me feel small and my insignificant knowledge of it makes me feel humble. The fact that I am alive and part of it makes me feel important and special.

sugarfree wrote:
My tears weren't grief tears necessarily...which would be the types of tears shed for those things you mentioned above. Or maybe they were grief tears, but mixed with a profound thankfulness.

Well, if you don't know, I can't help you. I cried when both of my children were born for both reasons. Thankful that they were both healthy and grief because I realized just how precious life is.

sugarfree wrote:
Because, when considering what Christ did on the cross, it really isn't possible to separate the two.

Only to you.

sugarfree wrote:
So maybe I should ask, what are atheist profoundly thankful for, that moves them to tears?

As stated in my post and others in this thread, many, many things. 


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Susan wrote: sugarfree

Susan wrote:

sugarfree wrote:
Now, you all will tear this post apart, say, I made all this up in my mind. It was the music, the setting, all the people around me... You all can look in from the outside and criticize. But it's okay. Because what I experienced in that moment, as I fully understood what Christ did for me, was Truth. And this Truth is so magnificent that everything you throw at me pales in comparison.

I'm curious why you felt a need to post that when you know everyone here (excluding perhaps, the various theists) is probably going to roll their eyes. 


Because I am still trying to figure you all out and this is my latest attempt. And, of course, there's always that glimmer of hope that someone may listen instead of rolling their eyes...


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rexlunae wrote:

rexlunae wrote:
Contrary to your claim, it seems like you were not embarrassed by breaking down and sobbing. The fact that you post it here seems to indicate that you are proud of it, and you want to be admired for your humility and piety, and your willingness to be 'torn apart' by us to offer your testimony.

Yeah, I have to admit this confuses me. I can see only two motives and they aren't necessarily exclusive: 1) to make us poor atheists realize how inferior and without hope we are if we don't believe in Jesus and 2) justify the theistic position and the Christian persecution complex:

Matthew 10:22 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

Either way the post reeks of arrogance couched in faux humility, which is the very bedrock of the Christian mindset.  Maybe I'm overreacting, but it almost seems like flame-bait.

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sugarfree wrote: rexlunae,

sugarfree wrote:
rexlunae, you have a unique talent for twisting the positive into negative.

Thanks. I really mean that.

sugarfree wrote:
I am simply curious about you...what is your life like? What about the atheist life humbles you, makes you thankful? What do your most meaningful moments consist of? What about them is meaningful to you?

I don't think of myself as living 'the atheist life', as you put it. I live a life without religious dogma, but that is just a statement of something my life does not contain. I hang out with friends, I read, I sing, nothing too unusual. I enjoy understanding the universe as clearly as I am able, and I can't think of anything more meaningful then that. Jesus isn't nearly as interesting as that, and frankly I don't care how important he is to some people.

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I guess what I am

I guess what I am wondering, tho, is, in your life, do you have anything that makes you feel so small and humble, yet at the same time, so important and special?

Actually yes there is. I am humbled by my tiny, seemingly insignificant place in the span of the cosmos, stretching for billions of light years, and being nothing more than a drop among infinite parallel universes like it (no longer science fiction in theoretical physics). But I feel special as a being who, as of yet, is one of the most complex and beautiful objects that is known to exist. 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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Iruka Naminori

Iruka Naminori wrote:
Either way the post reeks of arrogance couched in faux humility, which is the very bedrock of the Christian mindset.
All right, ya'll. I'm just trying to show you what you can have if you want it. It's not about me...it's about what you get when you devote yourselves to Jesus. Unfortunately, I am forced to finally admit that you, in fact, will not hear what I am trying to tell you.

God is too big to be explained via your logic puzzles. You are focused on your puzzles, and seem quite dazzled by them in fact, but in the meantime, you are missing out on the big picture.

Jesus is offering you His love, and all you have to do is accept it. It really is not that difficult, but you are making it so. Just remember this...if you ever find yourself at your wits end and can see no hope in this world, just call out His name and He will be there...


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What moves atheists to

What moves atheists to tears?

A swift kick in the nuts usually does the trick Surprised


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Replace the words "God" and

Replace the words "God" and "Jesus" with "Thor" and you'll understand how you appear to us. Hopefully, it'll also cause you to realize that you're just worshipping characters in a book that was written at a time when people simply didn't understand things, nothing more.


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Sugar, I suppose you just

Sugar, I suppose you just haven't believed me when I've told you this before, but most of us have been where you are. I know what it's like to be in one of those church services. I've been in them. Oh, and Iruka, I used to play piano for them, and I was really good at getting people to cry. One day maybe we can talk about that. I promise you're on the right track. The pastor never had any idea how much power I had as the musician! (Of course, in those days, I gave credit to god. In retrospect, I realize it was me.)

Sugar, I'll tell you something else that you'll probably just gloss over and ignore because it doesn't agree with your world model. Atheists are generally extremely thoughtful, caring, giving, and empathetic people. Why? Because we know that life really is precious! Every atheist I know has a reputation of being an exceptionally warm-hearted person.

Remember that movie, Big Fish, about a guy's father dying? I bawled like a baby at that. I lost my father about 10 years ago. (Before you get on your high horse and decide that's why I left god, don't. I was an atheist well before that.) The guy in that movie got to say goodbye to his dad, and I didn't, so I cried.

When I was done crying, I left the theater, had a great discussion with my girlfriend about what a great guy my dad was, and then we went to dinner.

We're people, too, sugar.

You can get off your high horse any time you like, and try to imagine that maybe everyone else on the planet feels emotions just like you do, regardless of which sky-fairie they do or don't believe in.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Yes, I remember those Good

Yes, I remember those Good Friday services where we were made to feel like the scum of the earth, as if it was us ourselves who killed jesus.  We had to play the part of the jews in the passion play.  Then they brought out this large crucifix and we had to line up and kiss the feet of the wooden figure of jesus.  Lots of depressing organ music to boot. 

 You yourself acknowledge that you were a non-believer for many years.  Do you mean to say you did not cry once in that time?  Did it take jesus to jump start your lacrimary glands?  There's plenty of unspeakable suffering occurring in the world at this very moment, sugar.  And yet it takes a fictional story to jerk your tears, and send you running here to proudly announce it.  I'm impressed.

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sugarfree wrote: you are

sugarfree wrote:
you are missing out on the big picture. Jesus is offering you His love, and all you have to do is accept it. It really is not that difficult, but you are making it so.

 I personally am aware that if I accepted Jesus's love, I would recieve it and feel his love just like you do. But the interesting thing is that if you really believe that The Flying Spaghetti Monster wants to save you and give you its love if you accept it, and you do, you will feel the same way you feel now thinking that you're connected to Jesus and that he's giving you his love. It's all in our heads. The difference between you and us is probably that your brain has been pre-programmed by religious dogma so when you "feel this love", you immediately attribute it to Jesus. On the other hand, we, the athests, are aware that our brain can produce strong feelings of love, joy, happiness without a deity, so we don't immediately acribe this love and emotion that brings us to tears - to immaginary friends that our grandparents are talking about.

Also let me point out that you don't ever really see or experience Jesus directly, instead you DECIDE "Wow, this has to be Jesus". Be honest and admit it.Smiling

 So now, to help you understand us...

We don't accept Jesus in our hearts for the SAME REASON you don't accept The Flying Spaghetti Monster in your heart - we see that it's all a silly story, and can easily live and die without it.

Cheers.Smiling 


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Listening to a creationist

Listening to a creationist and watching people buy into it just about moves me to tears. I tend to lose hope in humanity when I see this.

At times it makes me want to give up trying to make the world a better place.


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The Time Traveler's Wife,

The Time Traveler's Wife, by Audrey Niffenegger.

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sugarfree wrote:

sugarfree wrote:
rexlunae wrote:
Contrary to your claim, it seems like you were not embarrassed by breaking down and sobbing. The fact that you post it here seems to indicate that you are proud of it, and you want to be admired for your humility and piety, and your willingness to be 'torn apart' by us to offer your testimony.

rexlunae, you have a unique talent for twisting the positive into negative.

Sugar, you said:

sugarfree wrote:
This is not how I wanted it to happen, I don't relish allowing 250 people to see my weakness,

I do not think rexlunae is off base or you wouldn't have started this thread.

[Edit to fix quoting feature]

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kmisho wrote: Simply, I am

kmisho wrote:
Simply, I am repulsed by the arrogance of those people that think Jesus's sufferings were special in some way.

Yes. It's ridiculous. The average person suffers more in their lives than any 'jesus' could. Christians who assert that 'jesus suffered' or that 'jesus sacrificed' clearly aren't bothering to think their claims through.

 A child with leukemia suffers more, everyday, without any reason.

I issue my challenge for any theist:

It makes no sense to state that something is a sacrifice when 1) there was no loss, and 2) the gain for the behavior was infinite.

Jesus could not suffer even as much as a normal person:

Here is why:

1) He knows he's not really going to die in the first place

Here's a purported prophecy of the crucifixion.....
Quote:

Mark 8:34 (New International Version)

34Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

(By the way, this passage is self refuting... Jesus didn't 'take up the cross" until after this "event". So what meaning could his reference have for the audience he was speaking to?!)

2) He knows that he will be loved and adored for his act
3) He knows he will save billions of souls with his act.
4) He knows his reward is infinitity in bliss.
5) He knows he will not lose anything, ergo, no sacrifice.

This is not a 'sacrifice' therefore, at all. In fact, its the biggest, best deal in the world, and I challenge a theist to respond as to whether they would go on the cross. I've never seen a theist dare respond at all.

So why do theists call this a 'sacrifice'? Because they don't bother to think it through. It takes compartmentalization. You have to forget that millions die every day in doubt, for no reason. That's the real pain in the world. A child dies of starvation, with no reason, no reward, nothing.

A cancer patient watches his body whither away, in pain. He's not getting any reward, any recognition, no assurance that he will go to some heaven. He just faces death without any comfort.

How many people in the world have sacrificed real blood for others? A mother or a father dies to save their own child - no reward, no assurances. They just do it.

Every day, every person suffers more pain than this supposed savior could ever have suffered "for us". We all live in doubt, we all suffer pains. We do it because we must. Some of us even give more - we sacrifice our time, our blood, even our lives, for others.

No rewards. No guarentees.

A solidier gives up his life for his country. What reward does he get? A ribbon nailed to a wall somewhere, his name recorded in an unseen history book.

Think about it like this: imagine your child is about to be burned alive forever. And someone says to you: you can save him if you agree to go on the cross for three hours. In return, you not only save your own child, you save all children in the world. In addition, you are remembered and loved by billions. Oh, and one more thing: you go directly to heaven, in eternal bliss (after a three day tour of hell, all expenses paid!)

Would you refuse? Would ANYONE refuse? Seriously. There can be no greater gift in the world than to be offered the opportunity.

Again, I challenge a theist to answer the question: Would you go on the cross?

Watch as they continually dodge the question...

 

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Just because you got an

Just because you got an emotional responce over a song does not mean that the content of the song, for example lyrics, are true. You have certain images in your mind and that song pointed to those images. Add the emotional potential of music and you have yourself a nice cup of emotional outburst.

I have cried over songs too, they weren't religious, but they spoke to my experience. 


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Susan wrote: I do not

Susan wrote:

I do not think rexlunae is off base or you wouldn't have started this thread.

Susan, you are simply wrong in your assessment of my motivation.  If you understood my motivation, you may also understand what I am trying to say to you.


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MisterDax wrote: Just

MisterDax wrote:

Just because you got an emotional responce over a song does not mean that the content of the song, for example lyrics, are true. You have certain images in your mind and that song pointed to those images. Add the emotional potential of music and you have yourself a nice cup of emotional outburst.

I have cried over songs too, they weren't religious, but they spoke to my experience.

I've had plenty of emotional responses to non-religious songs.  This is different. That's what I'm trying to tell you.


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Hambydammit wrote: Oh, and

Hambydammit wrote:

Oh, and Iruka, I used to play piano for them, and I was really good at getting people to cry.

 
It's not about "getting" people to cry.  Sometimes, that just happens.  It is not the goal, and if it is, the motivations are not in the right place.


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zarathustra wrote: Yes, I

zarathustra wrote:

Yes, I remember those Good Friday services where we were made to feel like the scum of the earth, as if it was us ourselves who killed jesus.

There was none of this.  My pastor talked about the cruxificion from the perspective of Barabbas.


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Sugar, either you

Sugar, either you intentionally misrepresented my post (lied) or didn't read the rest of it.

Please go back and re-read it, and either apologize for lying about what I said, or admit that you didn't bother to read it carefully.

 

{Edit: 1000th post}

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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sugarfree wrote: Well, I

sugarfree wrote:
Well, I had an interesting experience on Sunday. I was singing on the vocal team at my church for the Easter service. I get teary sometimes, because of the words and power of the music along with it, sometimes it becomes overwhelming, in a good, but also very humbling way. On Sunday, I made it thru all the songs, but the last one was a traditional spiritual. A very simple song, simple melody, but quite beautiful melody, at that...with some interesting minor/jazz chords thrown in. The second verse..."Were you there when they nailed Him to the tree"...then the third verse..."Were you there when they laid him in the tomb," and I felt it coming...not just tears, sobs...in front of 250 or so people. This is not how I wanted it to happen, I don't relish allowing 250 people to see my weakness, but the truth of those lyrics, so simple, so incredibly profound. I couldn't sing anymore, I just looked down...and...bawled. But you know what? The fact that I was in front of all those people, it doesn't really matter. I knew they would not judge me. The reality of those words is what caused me to sob. Jesus was brutally beaten, disgraced, humiliated, his hands were nailed...and then He, God, died a human death. A more horrible death than any of us will experience. And he walked into that situation, willingly, for me. In the process of walking to his death, He spoke volumes about the character of God. And if we so chose, we can learn about God by studying how Christ died...and lived. He did all this, so 2000 years later, a person like me can know God personally. Intimately. Now, you all will tear this post apart, say, I made all this up in my mind. It was the music, the setting, all the people around me... You all can look in from the outside and criticize. But it's okay. Because what I experienced in that moment, as I fully understood what Christ did for me, was Truth. And this Truth is so magnificent that everything you throw at me pales in comparison.

If you have the time, i would challenge you and any xian to check out the various ex-xian sites out there & read people's thought, testmonies, deconversions etc. It's fairly revealing how so many people had REALLY intense feelings at certain times, had INTENSE experiences across the board as xians--everything imaginable, then, in their words, they eventually "came to their senses." 

The underlying theme/key to so many of these stories is that people started thinking. Really thinking it all through. I encourage you to do the same. Keep at it. There's a wealth of knowledge out there. This place is a good start. 

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dassercha wrote: If you

dassercha wrote:

If you have the time, i would challenge you and any xian to check out the various ex-xian sites out there & read people's thought, testmonies, deconversions etc. It's fairly revealing how so many people had REALLY intense feelings at certain times, had INTENSE experiences across the board as xians--everything imaginable, then, in their words, they eventually "came to their senses."

The underlying theme/key to so many of these stories is that people started thinking. Really thinking it all through. I encourage you to do the same. Keep at it. There's a wealth of knowledge out there. This place is a good start.

I concur.  And if you do decide to use your mind to investigate religion objectively, it will be one of the hardest things you've ever done. When I learned I'd wasted a good chunk of my life on a lie, it pissed me off.  I'm still pissed off, mainly because so many others are being manipulated into an unhealthy god-belief.  I especially feel for the poor kids.

I can also say that Christianity fostered some pretty negative things in me: arrogance hidden by false humility; hatred of homosexuals; a sense of righteousness that was unwarranted; unquestioning submission to authority figures...the list goes on. At least my current set of faults are mine and not inculcated by dogma. Eye-wink 

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Iruka Naminori wrote: I

Iruka Naminori wrote:

I can also say that Christianity fostered some pretty negative things in me: arrogance hidden by false humility; hatred of homosexuals; a sense of righteousness that was unwarranted; unquestioning submission to authority figures...the list goes on.

And I see a lot of those negative things repeated by someone else here... 

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Quote:I issue my

Quote:
I issue my challenge for any theist:

It makes no sense to state that something is a sacrifice when 1) there was no loss, and 2) the gain for the behavior was infinite.

I do not understand why people equate the relationship of life and infinite with that of numbers of infinity.


Would you give up a child to gain a million children? Would it be any easier of a choice if you gained three million? or any easier of a choice if you only gain 4?


Human minds attached significance to things (sometimes) whether or not they are proportionally insignificant.  Such things are concepts of "life" in general.


So.. To say that Jesus sacrificed nothing is mixing the inside-out observation with the outside-in and saying it's impossible.


From from a purely inside-out way of looking at things.. Jesus had, at one time, everything.  Yet gave it up (a proportionally significant amount) so that man could understand him.


Yet.. I believe.. in the theistic belief.. it is likened to this. (And I believe I have used this before with CoF).


"Bill Gates gives up everything he has to live as a black female child caught up in the slave trade of ole.  And while he knows he will get it all back in 3 days.. he will get ONLY what he originally had in the first place."


Now.. times that by infinity and take it to the depths of forever and you will barely have a glimpse of what I am talking about.--Joe Black.


Quote:
I've never seen a theist dare respond at all.
This is a lie.  And if not a lie.. then not perceptive.. and if perceptive and not a lie.. then not long term memory... and if none of those.. then something else that I can not think of at the moment (like I am mistaken.. hah-- which in essence makes the entire previous statement void. Sticking out tongue Beh.. I can't help but qualify my statements.. for some reason I just don't like committing to absolutes as absolutes.).


Something.. but I definitely "dared" to respond.


I DO NOT mean to belittle the belittle the sacrifices that people make everyday.. but.. I think they are fallacious comparison.


How do you compare finite man giving finite things for an infinite God giving up infinite things+1.. even if temporarily.


I don't think they can be compared.

Anycase.. I don't think I should jump into another conversation.  For the most part.. I do agree that the post seems a bit odd.  What do atheist shed tears over? I would imagine a lot of the same things that theist do.

We are a visceral people.  (I hope I used the word correctly. Smiling


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I'm going to echo Ig's

I'm going to echo Ig's sentiment that the idea that people can be manipulated by this story is one thing that forces more emotions from me than I have words for.

I'm not going to deny that anger toward the individual's willful ignorance is on the list of those emotions.

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sugarfree wrote: Well, I

sugarfree wrote:
Well, I had an interesting experience on Sunday. I was singing on the vocal team at my church for the Easter service. I get teary sometimes, because of the words and power of the music along with it, sometimes it becomes overwhelming, in a good, but also very humbling way. On Sunday, I made it thru all the songs, but the last one was a traditional spiritual. A very simple song, simple melody, but quite beautiful melody, at that...with some interesting minor/jazz chords thrown in. The second verse..."Were you there when they nailed Him to the tree"...then the third verse..."Were you there when they laid him in the tomb," and I felt it coming...not just tears, sobs...in front of 250 or so people. This is not how I wanted it to happen, I don't relish allowing 250 people to see my weakness, but the truth of those lyrics, so simple, so incredibly profound. I couldn't sing anymore, I just looked down...and...bawled. But you know what? The fact that I was in front of all those people, it doesn't really matter. I knew they would not judge me. The reality of those words is what caused me to sob. Jesus was brutally beaten, disgraced, humiliated, his hands were nailed...and then He, God, died a human death. A more horrible death than any of us will experience. And he walked into that situation, willingly, for me. In the process of walking to his death, He spoke volumes about the character of God. And if we so chose, we can learn about God by studying how Christ died...and lived. He did all this, so 2000 years later, a person like me can know God personally. Intimately. Now, you all will tear this post apart, say, I made all this up in my mind. It was the music, the setting, all the people around me... You all can look in from the outside and criticize. But it's okay. Because what I experienced in that moment, as I fully understood what Christ did for me, was Truth. And this Truth is so magnificent that everything you throw at me pales in comparison.


So... your personal emotions regarding a mythological story are somehow suppose to advocate its relevance to reality?

While the story is sad - it isn't unique. Jesus' crucifixion doesn't bring me to tears anymore than the crucifixion of his preceeding messiahs (i.e. Mithras, Horus, Prometheus, Attis). These messiahs were also sacraficially crucified for the redemption of mankind.

I understand that you are a Christian - and treat Christ as if he is special in this respect - however - I see all the Messiahs. There isn't justifiable cause to treat him as anything more than the others. I find the story of Horus' crucifixion to be much more moving and tear-jerking. Christ's sacrafice pales in comparison. Likewise - the sacrafice of Mithras draws much stronger emotions. Christ's story is truely mundane - comparatively.

Don't get me wrong - Christ's story is genuinly sad and tragic. However, when compared to preceeding messiah myths - it lacks the depth and profound emotional backing - leaving much to be desired from this particular myth.


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All right, ya'll. I'm just

All right, ya'll. I'm just trying to show you what you can have if you want it. It's not about me...

It's exactly about you. “Jesus” is a repository for all your simple-minded hopes and fears.

it's about what you get when you devote yourselves to Jesus.

Turn off your thoughts people and ACCEPT! ACCEPT, ACCEPT, ACCEPT!

Unfortunately, I am forced to finally admit that you, in fact, will not hear what I am trying to tell you.

Or you're mistaken in thinking it's compelling, or even remotely interesting. When I see a person afflicted with a neediness so deep they resort to delusion to cope, I don't admire them. I don't feel envious of the mentally ill.

God is too big to be explained via your logic puzzles. You are focused on your puzzles, and seem quite dazzled by them in fact, but in the meantime, you are missing out on the big picture.

“God” is big, “god” is vague, “god” is whatever believers want it to be at any given moment. If a discussion of faith were a chess game, you'd be guilty of continually upturning the board at check.

Jesus is offering you His love, and all you have to do is accept it.

STOP THINKING! ACCEPT!

It really is not that difficult, but you are making it so.

Just takes an ice pick in the eye socket.

Just remember this...if you ever find yourself at your wits end and can see no hope in this world, just call out His name and He will be there...

Blow me.


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Quote: From from a purely

Quote:
From from a purely inside-out way of looking at things.. Jesus had, at one time, everything. Yet gave it up (a proportionally significant amount) so that man could understand him.

???

Now this kind of sensless drivel drives me to tears. Way to sidestep... I mean, you really do need that mental god crutch of yours so much that you are willing to commit very cartwheels of intellectual dishonesty in order to smooth away the ructions in your mind created by this question?

What did jesus give up? He went to heaven and fulfilled his predestined task. Where is the giving up attached to this? You state he had 'everything' - what the hell is that supposed to mean? Eh? Are you serious? Please don't try to base an argument on a one-word assertion that you totally fail to subsequently quantify. You cannot have anything useful if you are following your predestined path. Because being able to use something, to take advantage of something, you need the free will to do so. So what is this "everything" he had? Please quantify what "having everything" means, in non-etherial terms.

How do men understand him then? Like Mr. Dawkins says - how can you understand a man sent to die on the cross for the sins of the (already widely accepted) allegorical figure of Adam? Doesn't sound very understandable to me. I'm sure your response would be something suitably mysterious, and I'm really looking forward to it.

The original question - what makes me cry? Well I'm fairly practical and I don't cry a lot. But looking at BBC footage of rows of tents of living skeletons dying in hopelessness and squalor of a nasty but preventable disease because they weren't allowed to use the one thing that would save them - that gets me as close as anything.

And don't go on about that abstinence rubbish - it won't work so it's not an option.

Religion is the ultimate con-job. It cons the conned, and it cons the conner.

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Well, if nothing else, let's

Well, if nothing else, let's look at the bright side.  I've been keeping you entertained.  (Oh, drats, you'll probably disagree with this too...  Sad  )


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Hambydammit wrote: Sugar,

Hambydammit wrote:

Sugar, either you intentionally misrepresented my post (lied) or didn't read the rest of it.

Please go back and re-read it, and either apologize for lying about what I said, or admit that you didn't bother to read it carefully.

Hamby, I did read your entire post, and that particular sentence stood out among all the rest.  If you did not mean it to sound the way it did, I apologize, otherwise, my comment stands. 


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All right ya'll.  I'm

All right ya'll.  I'm sorry you feel my post was odd.  I was opening my heart to you in attempt to share what I feel is something very precious.  You have stomped on this beautiful thing, and called it a lie.  I suspected you might...but I was just taking that one last risk, because I felt it was worth the try.  Now, to be honest, I am tired of being stepped on.

Whomever reminded me that you are real people did so unnecessarily.  Of course I know that.  That is why I have been here chatting.  It has certainly been interesting, and I take away no ill feelings...(Well, there is my heart...currently in a bloody pulp...but I'll get over that.  I don't take it personally.)

I was told by one of you that you don't believe in luck.  I can't say "good luck", so I'll try this.  I wish you the best in this life.  Do take care.


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sugarfree wrote: All right

sugarfree wrote:

All right ya'll. I'm sorry you feel my post was odd. I was opening my heart to you in attempt to share what I feel is something very precious. You have stomped on this beautiful thing, and called it a lie. I suspected you might...but I was just taking that one last risk, because I felt it was worth the try. Now, to be honest, I am tired of being stepped on.

Whomever reminded me that you are real people did so unnecessarily. Of course I know that. That is why I have been here chatting. It has certainly been interesting, and I take away no ill feelings...(Well, there is my heart...currently in a bloody pulp...but I'll get over that. I don't take it personally.)

I was told by one of you that you don't believe in luck. I can't say "good luck", so I'll try this. I wish you the best in this life. Do take care.

Sugar:

I used to be very angry. I am no more. However, I can understand alot of people's frustration here.

Yes, people could have said some things more gingerly, but do you take away a msg? It's to challenge yourself. Think for yourself. Check out some of those sites i recommended. Always be open to understanding that which you do not understand. 

 

EDUCATION! EDUCATION! EDUCATION!


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I used to have similar

I used to have similar experiences as a Christian. I used to be a major crier in services. I joked that I had a "blessed holy spigot" in my back and that when God turned it on, waterworks were guaranteed to ensue.

Then I re-discovered the theatre and had similar experiences seeing and performing in intense, emotionally draining productions. As I studeid further, I learned about catharsis and its physical effects.

Catharsis can be a wonderful thing unless the person experiencing it misconstrues it for the Divine. 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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