Question for Xians: Conversion by Scripture?

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Question for Xians: Conversion by Scripture?

You would not be convinced to convert to Islam by someone randomly quoting the Koran at you. Why do you think you could convince an atheist that the Bible is true by quoting it at them?


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I'm sure the answers are

I'm sure that some rational answers are coming soon....

*Waits*


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Well, I know all it takes

Well, I know all it takes for me to believe in scientific findings is a few good quotes from people who know scientists. NOT!

 What B.S. approach to a convincing argument, quoting a book an atheist puts no merit in.

 


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I think Christians quote the

I think Christians quote the bible because they love the bible and the bible makes them feel secure that they are right... somehow... I don't think they ever consider there target audience, instead they think "What teaches me about my religion... all that holy babble, I know I will quote the few nice passages from the babbling book and then they will see the light!"
I'm sure I can find just as many crackpot quotes (probably more) than they can find nice ones! I mean who tries to convert people with a book that says: If two men fight and the wife of one of the men grabs the balls of the other man... then they must cut off her hand (and not pity her).
Only the important issues make it into that book!

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I would almost as soon believe with the old and ignorant cosmogonists, that fossil shells had never lived, but had been created in stone so as to mock the shells now living on the sea-shore. - Charles Darwin


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I would certainly be

I would certainly be interested in a theist response.

Bump.


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Some Christian actually

Some Christian actually think that hearing the "word of God" will effect a change in people. A common verse to support this is Isaiah 55:10-11.

Isaiah 55:10-11 wrote:
As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,

so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it. (NIV)


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Would they become atheists

Would they become atheists if we quoted Dan Barker or Richard Dawkins to them?


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We should start doing that!

We should start doing that! I'm tired of giving them the violent Bible verses, I'll just quote Dawkins next time.


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I always liked that t shirt

I always liked that t shirt that says "There ain't no goddamn God goddamn it!"


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Symok wrote: You would not

Symok wrote:
You would not be convinced to convert to Islam by someone randomly quoting the Koran at you. Why do you think you could convince an atheist that the Bible is true by quoting it at them?

Not all Christians think you'll be converted by hearing verses from the Bible.

"The map appears more real to us than the land." - Lawrence


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I wouldn't have thought so,

I wouldn't have thought so, but this was more for the ones who did try that I would think.


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JHenson wrote: Not all

JHenson wrote:

Not all Christians think you'll be converted by hearing verses from the Bible.

And not all Xians are YECs. What's your point?


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You dare compare the bible

You dare compare the bible to the qu'ran?  You dare question the word of god?  It is written that those who don't believe...

(wakes up in a cold sweat) 

There are no theists on operating tables.

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Symok wrote: You would not

Symok wrote:
You would not be convinced to convert to Islam by someone randomly quoting the Koran at you. Why do you think you could convince an atheist that the Bible is true by quoting it at them?

A Christian may try different methods to try to introduce you to God...not to coerce you, but to introduce you to something that has transformed their life for the better. What doesn't work on you may work on someone else. One of my former pastors decided to become a Christian one summer after reading the New Testament.

Have you ever tried studying the Bible, just to study it, not to disprove it? If you did, I think you would find it is an extremely fascinating book that continues to reveal complex layers. I would be interested in hearing from an atheist who actually respects the Bible, if nothing else, as a piece of literature. I would be interested to ask them how, after giving it a heartfelt study, they still came to the conclusion that there is no God. That person's point of view would mean more to me than the atheist who simply expresses hatred for the book. Because, that hatred merely confirms the truths in the Bible regarding our human tendency towards rebelliousness and arrogance.


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No Christian can convert any

No Christian can convert any person to Christanity to begin with.  A person can talk about the word of God but only God can make it known to that person to be truth..."faith" is a gift from God only.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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I always figured that xians

I always figured that xians used the bible so much because it's the only thing they really know.  Perhaps they are unable to understand why it's not important to a non-religious person;  after all, it's the most important thing to them. 

 

If god takes life he's an indian giver


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pariahjane wrote: I always

pariahjane wrote:
I always figured that xians used the bible so much because it's the only thing they really know. Perhaps they are unable to understand why it's not important to a non-religious person; after all, it's the most important thing to them.

That's like saying that documentation isn't important to science.  Remember the bible is not one book but a collection.  Just like you have collections under every subject of science, there are several letters and books that come under the subject of God. 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak

razorphreak wrote:

pariahjane wrote:
I always figured that xians used the bible so much because it's the only thing they really know. Perhaps they are unable to understand why it's not important to a non-religious person; after all, it's the most important thing to them.

That's like saying that documentation isn't important to science.  Remember the bible is not one book but a collection.  Just like you have collections under every subject of science, there are several letters and books that come under the subject of God. 

I'm not sure I understand your comparison to documentation.  Could you please elaborate?

Isn't the bible considered the most important book in Christianity? 

If god takes life he's an indian giver


razorphreak
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pariahjane wrote: Isn't the

pariahjane wrote:
Isn't the bible considered the most important book in Christianity?

Yes the bible is the most important "book" to Christians because of what that collection of books means (the whole word of God ya know).  It does not mean however that it is the only book in existence that helps with belief, with understanding, and with developing a richer sense of what it means to be a Christian.  That make sense?

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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I am well aware of the fact

I am well aware of the fact that there are other books that sustain your beliefs; however, it's my understanding that the Bible is the most important.  I also know that the Bible is a collection of works; that collection of works is commonly referred to as the Bible, so that's what I'm calling it. I understood that part.

My confusion is stemming from your comparision with scientific documentation. What does that have to do with scientific documentation?

If god takes life he's an indian giver


razorphreak
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pariahjane wrote: My

pariahjane wrote:
My confusion is stemming from your comparision with scientific documentation. What does that have to do with scientific documentation?

Maybe it's the way you worded your original statement.  Sounds to me like you reject the bible not because you don't believe in it but because you don't take it as a way to define Christanity. 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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Ok, I think we're on the

Ok, I think we're on the same page now.  Sometimes I'm trying to make a point quickly and it doesn't come out quite right.  Sorry about that.

I meant to say that I think many (and not all) xians use the tactic of quoting Bible verses because that's what they know best.  They perhaps don't understand why, when it creates such a movement or emotion within themselves, these verses fail to do anything to someone who does not have religious beliefs. 

I just think as a tactic for potential conversion, it's just not a very good one.  For most non-religious people, the Bible simply doesn't hold any weight. 

If god takes life he's an indian giver


razorphreak
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pariahjane wrote: I meant

pariahjane wrote:
I meant to say that I think many (and not all) xians use the tactic of quoting Bible verses because that's what they know best. They perhaps don't understand why, when it creates such a movement or emotion within themselves, these verses fail to do anything to someone who does not have religious beliefs.

gotcha.  Now I understand what you meant.

pariahjane wrote:
I just think as a tactic for potential conversion, it's just not a very good one. For most non-religious people, the Bible simply doesn't hold any weight.

I agree.  From my standpoint as a Christian, because it's stated in the bible and because my faith tells me as much as well, no person can convert anyone to a believer.  No person can "save" another in regards to their salvation.  Only God can grant a person faith.  Once faith comes into the picture, it will hold weight because then and only then will it make sense; contradictions no longer exist and the story told has an understandable flow.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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What is your opinion of

What is your opinion of Christians who do use this tactic?  In my experiences, the groups that usually do this are the born-agains.  I've heard that the evanglelicals do this as well but I don't come into contact with very many evangelicals so I can't say.

 

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razorphreak
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pariahjane wrote: What is

pariahjane wrote:
What is your opinion of Christians who do use this tactic? In my experiences, the groups that usually do this are the born-agains. I've heard that the evanglelicals do this as well but I don't come into contact with very many evangelicals so I can't say.

Reminds me actually of that Steve Martin movie Leap of Faith.

Jesus did not save someone and then turn to the disiples and say "You like that?  Wanna see me do it again?" as in some way to show off what he could do.

I think those who claim to have saved anyone first and foremost are boasting.  I remember there was a time I was with a lady and we went dancing at a club.  While in line, a bunch of "Christians" were there telling us how we'd be going to hell for going into the club..judging me and my lady at the time for wanting to dance.  I'll never forget how they caused more harm than good by this because no one will respond to scare tactics.  They talked about how two girls started making out in front of them as a show of rejection to their preaching - and I asked you don't think that was their fault?  To which of course they claimed "who us? how could it be".  When you have mega churches and outspoken "leaders" who are in it for the attention and popularity, God's message can be a confusing one.  Not everyone can be a teacher and not everyone can be a preacher either.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


zarathustra
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razorphreak wrote: No

razorphreak wrote:
No Christian can convert any person to Christanity to begin with. A person can talk about the word of God but only God can make it known to that person to be truth..."faith" is a gift from God only.

My parents "converted" me -- by forcing me to pray, attend church, and follow everything else instructed by their faith.  Without that indoctrination, I would have never had the "gift" of faith.   

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zarathustra wrote: My

zarathustra wrote:
My parents "converted" me -- by forcing me to pray, attend church, and follow everything else instructed by their faith. Without that indoctrination, I would have never had the "gift" of faith.

One person's faith is not another's...especially to a child.  Each person will be called by God in his or her time.  If that person is not one of God's chosen, their actions while alive are what they will be judged upon.  If they are, God will give them faith.

If you are one of God's chosen zarathustra, GOD gives you a faith, not your parents by forcing you to follow theirs.  My parents did the exact same thing but it never worked.  It wasn't until I found God myself, or should I say he found me, that I began to truly believe.  I never read the bible when I was a Catholic but in no time I managed to read it on my own, without any instruction from family, and gained an understanding to God's word like never before.  

Again, no human can give you faith...only God. 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak

razorphreak wrote:
Each person will be called by God in his or her time.  If that person is not one of God's chosen, their actions while alive are what they will be judged upon.  If they are, God will give them faith.

And thereofore we have no responsibility whatsoever to participate. If we are chosen, we're fine, and if we aren't we're fucked, and there's nothing we can do about it. We don't chose god, he chooses us, so why bother believing, or even giving god a second thought? Right?

Seems quite unjust though.

It's only the fairy tales they believe.


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rexlunae wrote: And

rexlunae wrote:
And thereofore we have no responsibility whatsoever to participate. If we are chosen, we're fine, and if we aren't we're fucked, and there's nothing we can do about it. We don't chose god, he chooses us, so why bother believing, or even giving god a second thought? Right? Seems quite unjust though.

You didn't read what I said...

Quote:
If that person is not one of God's chosen, their actions while alive are what they will be judged upon

Romans 2:14. 

Don't assume anything about your "end".  We are not judge or jury and any Christian or otherwise that tells you, "you are damned for not believing" is not following the teachings of Jesus or what is written in the bible (Matthew 7:1-5).

Second, if God chooses you, "believing" becomes all you think about.  Everything else is second thoughts...

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote: Romans

razorphreak wrote:

Romans 2:14.

razorphreak wrote:

Matthew 7:1-5

    Quite ironic considering the thread title and the OP's message.


razorphreak
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BGH wrote: razorphreak

BGH wrote:
razorphreak wrote:

Romans 2:14.

razorphreak wrote:

Matthew 7:1-5

Quite ironic considering the thread title and the OP's message.

They are not to convert but to explain.  Even YOU should be able to recognize that...or are you going to take even that out of context? 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote: You

razorphreak wrote:
You didn't read what I said...

I don't think you know what you said. You said that god chooses us, we don't choose him.

razorphreak wrote:
Don't assume anything about your "end".  We are not judge or jury and any Christian or otherwise that tells you, "you are damned for not believing" is not following the teachings of Jesus or what is written in the bible (Matthew 7:1-5).

On the other hand, John 7:24 instructs us to "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." Hard to know which part of the Bible to follow. And Leviticus 19:15 instructs us "in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour."

razorphreak wrote:
Second, if God chooses you, "believing" becomes all you think about.  Everything else is second thoughts...

This is very simple. If it is true that god chooses us, rather than us choosing him, we don't have to do anything. We just have to sit back and wait for him to make his choice.

It's only the fairy tales they believe.


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rexlunae wrote: I don't

rexlunae wrote:
I don't think you know what you said. You said that god chooses us, we don't choose him.

Don't take me out of context either.  I know what I said and you are twisting it... 

rexlunae wrote:
On the other hand, John 7:24 instructs us to "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." Hard to know which part of the Bible to follow. And Leviticus 19:15 instructs us "in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour."

And you are taking the bible out of context.  Both the passages from Leviticus and John refer to believer to believer and the CORRECTIONS you do to them according to "righteousness", e.g. explaining when they are wrong by using the name of Jesus to justify their actions (like the Westboro Baptist Church).  It explains I can judge them based on their actions as a believer to them who are also believers but are incorrect by their actions.

rexlunae wrote:
This is very simple. If it is true that god chooses us, rather than us choosing him, we don't have to do anything. We just have to sit back and wait for him to make his choice.

What's your point?  Do you live your life by sitting on the couch all day long?   If you don't, which I'm sure you leave the house at least once a day, then you are not "sitting back" and waiting for him.  You are living your life and it is by how you live your life which will show God's presence, one way or another.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote: Don't

razorphreak wrote:
Don't take me out of context either.  I know what I said and you are twisting it...

I don't think I'm taking you out of context or twisting what you are saying, so why don't you clarify. You claimed that ones parents can't convert them because god must choose you. Then, it would seem there's no point in anyone trying to convince anyone else to believe in god. Where is this wrong?

razorphreak wrote:
rexlunae wrote:
On the other hand, John 7:24 instructs us to "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." Hard to know which part of the Bible to follow. And Leviticus 19:15 instructs us "in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour."

And you are taking the bible out of context.  Both the passages from Leviticus and John refer to believer to believer and the CORRECTIONS you do to them according to "righteousness", e.g. explaining when they are wrong by using the name of Jesus to justify their actions (like the Westboro Baptist Church). It explains I can judge them based on their actions as a believer to them who are also believers but are incorrect by their actions.

Then how to you deal with 1 Corinthians 2:15, which says that "But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man."?

razorphreak wrote:
rexlunae wrote:
This is very simple. If it is true that god chooses us, rather than us choosing him, we don't have to do anything. We just have to sit back and wait for him to make his choice.

What's your point?  Do you live your life by sitting on the couch all day long?   If you don't, which I'm sure you leave the house at least once a day, then you are not "sitting back" and waiting for him.  You are living your life and it is by how you live your life which will show God's presence, one way or another.

My point is that, the way you have described faith working, there is no reason for you or any other believer to try to convince anyone to believe in god, because faith has to come from god.

It's only the fairy tales they believe.


razorphreak
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rexlunae wrote: My point is

rexlunae wrote:
My point is that, the way you have described faith working, there is no reason for you or any other believer to try to convince anyone to believe in god, because faith has to come from god.

First, I will say is you can keep bringing up verses regarding judging yet it's pretty obvious you are missing the point of what it means to judge someone in a condemning tone vs. to judge with a correctional tone.

Second, as to what I said that you are twisting, I wasn't speaking ONLY about if you are chosen but also if you are NOT chosen.   This is what I mean because you changed what it was I responded to and formed what seems like a different conversation from it... 

Lastly, I've said it several times, no Christian needs to convince ANYONE of who God is; God does this himself.  That does not mean he leaves you alone until he calls on you because perhaps he already has...and you already are doing his will.  I can't say one way or the other because...I'm not God.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote: First, I

razorphreak wrote:
First, I will say is you can keep bringing up verses regarding judging yet it's pretty obvious you are missing the point of what it means to judge someone in a condemning tone vs. to judge with a correctional tone.

Well, it isn't an obvious distinction that seems to me to be made in the Bible, particularly the verse from 1 Corinthians, which says that spiritual people judge all things, which seems to include nonbelievers. How would it make sense to say that this 'judge' be read as 'correct', when they are not spiritual?

razorphreak wrote:
Second, as to what I said that you are twisting, I wasn't speaking ONLY about if you are chosen but also if you are NOT chosen.   This is what I mean because you changed what it was I responded to and formed what seems like a different conversation from it...

Your comment seemed so inconsistent with Christian behavior that I decided to comment about the larger implications of what you said. If it is true that ones parents cannot convert them to Christianity, because god has to choose us, then it seems like all attempts to persuade nonbelievers are futile. That's what I'm really looking for an answer to. So, what motivates a Christian to talk to nonbelievers about their god? The whole judgment point is really tangential to this.

razorphreak wrote:
Lastly, I've said it several times, no Christian needs to convince ANYONE of who God is; God does this himself.

Ok. So, what can a Christian do? Why does a Christian try to convince atheists that there could be a god if they believe that only god can call people to faith?

It's only the fairy tales they believe.


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razorphreak wrote: Lastly,

razorphreak wrote:

Lastly, I've said it several times, no Christian needs to convince ANYONE of who God is; God does this himself.  That does not mean he leaves you alone until he calls on you because perhaps he already has...and you already are doing his will.  I can't say one way or the other because...I'm not God.

I'm sorry, perhaps I'm a little confused.  You make it sound as if we won't know whether god has chosen us or not.  If we don't know, do we have a choice not to follow god?

If god takes life he's an indian giver


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Forgive me if I'm skipping

Forgive me if I'm skipping the verses comment, the rest of your post got interesting...

rexlunae wrote:
Your comment seemed so inconsistent with Christian behavior that I decided to comment about the larger implications of what you said. If it is true that ones parents cannot convert them to Christianity, because god has to choose us, then it seems like all attempts to persuade nonbelievers are futile. That's what I'm really looking for an answer to. So, what motivates a Christian to talk to nonbelievers about their god? The whole judgment point is really tangential to this.

Obviously I cannot speak for all Christians, especially those devoted to dogmatic practices (mind you that's not a cut on those folks since we are all believers in Jesus, that gives us the commonality, however it does not mean that I agree with their practices).

When you stated that all attempts to persuade nonbelievers are futile, there is one important thing that as a Christian I attribute to God and that's him speaking the words that I might say though me. It's how we attribute how the words were written in the bible. While this does not mean that I am actively attempting to convert anyone, God can very much make those words make sense to someone he is calling. For me, my faith led me here to talk with those who participate on the RRS forums not to judge but because I saw inaccurate statements being made. I stuck around because some very interesting questions and discussions are actually being made here...

No Christian should judge a person based on their beliefs. That's the important part. The actions of a person can be judged and this is where corrections are made based on the actions. For example, I don't agree with someone who is homosexual. That does not mean however I HATE that individual. If I were to say I hate homosexuals, that means I'm judging that person before I ever know them. By me saying I don't agree with the homosexual lifestyle, that means I don't agree that living that lifestyle is following the nature of God, i.e. righteous. That does not mean I wouldn't want that person as a friend or as someone I would trust. If I am asked however, I won't lie about what I think of the SIN, but I cannot speak about the person in the same way. I believe that how you reflect God though your actions is what attracts people to your light, not holding a bible in one hand, the cross in another, and screaming before 1000 people saying "You are damned if you don't follow Jesus!" I can't say if someone is damned or not period...

pariahjane wrote:
I'm sorry, perhaps I'm a little confused. You make it sound as if we won't know whether god has chosen us or not. If we don't know, do we have a choice not to follow god?

If you have been chosen, you know.  There is no doubt in your mind about it.  As to doubt, only you and God know what your heart believes and follows.  This I would call your "spirit" and how your spirit directs you in your actions each day of your life.  As I've said before there is no free will of the spirit, so you do not "choose" to follow or not; God has already given you what is necessary.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire