My Love/Hate Relationship with English Fundies

Strafio
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My Love/Hate Relationship with English Fundies

I don't need to go into detail about what I hate about these fundies. Their theology is the same vile combination of psychological abuse, incoherent theories and ignorant claims that we get from Christian fundies all over. What trully confounds me is that the holders of such awful beliefs are some of the greatest people I've met. It's not just that they're 'nice', they're also so alive...

Fellow Brits might be familiar with what I mean. To the rest of you I'll explain further. English evangelicals share the same beliefs as American ones but because of the differences in culture and political climate, there's a large difference in their attitude towards disbelievers. I think that the main difference is as follows:
In America, evangelical Christianity is the status quo in most places so a denial of it is seen as rocking the boat and the Christians are trying to preserve their culture. Therefore, questioning and objecting is scary to them and they try to clamp down on it.
In England, evangelical Christianity is a minority. They want to challenge the status quo. Because of this they want to be questioned. They want to make people think and change their opinions. They want there to be a dialogue in order to find out the truth. If you get into an argument with an English evangelical over their religion then it'll make their day that you weren't apathetic! Wink

This difference might sound small but it makes a world of difference.
Atheists/antagonists are no longer seen as trouble makers up to no good.
It's not a case of "you ought to be listening to us" it's a case of "we'd love it if you came to listen to us." That might sound like a better choice of words, but I'm not talking about 'technical politeness' here. Their genuine attitude towards non-believers is one where they don't make demands or expectations.
Their use of the wager is slightly different too.
It's an anti-apathy measure. It's a "there's no use in just saying 'all religions are true' as our one says there's no sitting on the fence. Either you agree or you disagree and you want to be sure!" kind of wager. Still psychologically abusive as it takes advantage of your honesty about your own fallibity, but not quite as bad as other uses of the wager.


Anyway, you're probably wondering why I made a topic about these guys. The truth is, I think we can learn from these guys in a several ways.
1) What they are attempting to acheive in England is similar to what the RRS are trying to acheive in the Bible belt - the acceptance of a controversial viewpoint.
2) They embody everything that is appealing about theism. As the movement is a growing one, they rely on conversion rather than 'brainwashing from birth'. Freethinking people who thought themselves immune to superstition have found themselves snared.
3) I find their 'spiritual' lifestyles are very impressive. I said earlier that are 'alive'. What I mean is, I've often thought of the characteristics I value most in a personality. Although these guys often score rockbottom for rationality, everything else about them - their attitude towards people, life, their work, their play...
Surely this 'spirituality' doesn't depend entirely on superstition.
Surely there is a way we could come to understand this lifestyle in a way that means we can reap the benefits but in a rational way.


All three points are tied in the following observation:
They have the same uphill struggle that the RRS have, except even worse as they don't even have the rational truth to convince people with. Yet they are persuading intelligent people to put their rationality aside, accept a theology with some horrific ideas in it. These people they convert have to admit that they are miserable worthless sinners who require saving and that if they don't they will burn in hell, that all their non-Christian friends are set to burn in hell and that any friends/family members who died non-Christian are suffering for eternity. So what could possibly be drawing these people in?

They aren't converting people from a rational perspective. I think we all know that accepting Fundy rationality is an exercise in convincing yourself that you're not a naive idiot for going along with this. They aren't converting people from a wishful thinking perspective, as although the promise of eternal bliss is nice, that on it's own wouldn't be enough. What's more there's the burden by the uglier beliefs like eternal damnation and the guilt of your own human nature. So what does convince them?

It is this spirituality I talk about. It is the atmosphere of this Christian community. As much as I abhore their moral theories, their moral practice is impeccable. They are genuinely nice and hospitable people and you can see that although they have to go through challenges and internal struggles, there's a real joy to their faith. They are so driven with a conviction that what they're doing is nice.
Converts aren't buying into the theology. Many will admit straight up that they don't fully understand the theology. They have been overwhelmed by the atmosphere of the people, felt so alive that they're left sure that this theology, whether they understand it or not, is the answer to life.


So how does this affect us?
The main drive people have for accepting the most appalling superstitious beliefs is that they come with this 'spirituality' that they want from life. The general view of the 'faithless' is of those who have denied something because they couldn't understand it, because they weren't open to something new. If we could find a rational approach to spirituality (like Sam Harris is advocating) that could tap into this human need, give us the desired lifestyle, not only would we get all the benefits of religion without the bad, not only would we ourselves master the happy 'spiritual life', we would also take from religion it's final incentive to encourage irrationality.

Thoughts? Smile


Klarky
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I take your point on

I take your point on Christian culture in the UK. The govt squeezed the power out of Christianity long ago and Christians have to settle with what the govt are willing to grant them; i.e. A figurehead, acts of daily worship, (which doesn't seem to have much impact on the average Brit kid), and a few Bishops in the house of Lords, (which is also changing). It is also considered a Christian nation, at least on paper.

In terms of Christianity; we have been there and done that, and they recognise that many Brits are suspicious of religious people for many historical and cultural reasons.

The problem I see with your appraisal is that Christians in the UK are a minority, and by virtue toothless. As history has shown; this will remain so until they gain power.
If they gained the majority it will open up the flood gates for the fundies, and they will enjoy too much time and power to "tinker" with the politics on theological grounds.

"If" Christianity became dominant again in the UK basically we will be completely fucked. We have no separation of church and state, and no written constitution as such. I cannot see this happening though.

I do see a difference between American theologians and British ones. The latter seem more academic, they have genuine interests in questions of biblical history and they enjoy conversation about Christianity and philosophy in general. Basically they seem, on the whole, less pious than their American counterparts. Notable exclusions; W.L Craig and a couple of others.

I don't see the analogy with the RRS being particularly clear, since one could use this analogy with any group struggling to be heard.

 - Klarks


Strafio
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Klarky wrote: The problem I

Klarky wrote:
The problem I see with your appraisal is that Christians in the UK are a minority, and by virtue toothless. As history has shown; this will remain so until they gain power.

If they gained the majority it will open up the flood gates for the fundies, and they will enjoy too much time and power to "tinker" with the politics on theological grounds.


I don't see how this is a problem with my appraisal.
I agree that if these guys were to become a significant majority then the bubble would burst and everything I currently liked about them would start to disappear, but that's so unlikely to happen that I'm not even going to consider it.

Quote:
I do see a difference between American theologians and British ones. The latter seem more academic, they have genuine interests in questions of biblical history and they enjoy conversation about Christianity and philosophy in general. Basically they seem, on the whole, less pious than their American counterparts.

Hmmm...
I was specifically talking about Evangelicals.
That's the American style theology.
Catholics and Anglicans in England are extremely liberal and I consider them to be secular citizens. This topic was about the fundie evangelical minority and how they entice people dispite their wacky and controversial theologies.

Quote:
I don't see the analogy with the RRS being particularly clear, since one could use this analogy with any group struggling to be heard.

There's a bit more relevence as they are arguing over the same subject. The interest is what motivates these Christians and why they choose faith, why they find rational truths insufficient. When we see intelligent, freethinking, secular-raised kids convert to fundamentalism we get a chance to isolate a major motivation. If we want to 'cure the world of religion' then understand it's causes is vital.

What's more, when you see how happy their lifestyle is, I certainly wouldn't mind my life being a bit more like that.


PillarMyArse
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English fundies

Not sure I necessarily agree with you there, although I haven't had much experience to be honest.

I had a friend at school - Jehova's witness - who was a great guy but the onus was on him to get me converted. He tried to do what was lovingly called a "bible study" on me a couple of times - I didn't know what I believed at the time so thought what the heck? He had to give up in the end, in total exasperation, because I just couldn't grasp it. Not because I'm stupid (although that seemed to be what his parents intimated) but because it was such utter, utter shit.
The point being that I was from a single parent family, brother moved away, mum working all hours etc, that they saw an easy target. Maybe thought they were doing me a favour. But if I had accepted everything at face value and not required a straight answer then I may have been sucked right in, who knows?
They may be in the minority - but they are still fundies and not to be trusted in the above situation.

About the only other brush I had was being approached on Wallsend high street by a card-carrying bible-bashing loon. All very pleasant at first - 'have you found jesus etc.' I very politely declined to discuss it - I explained that I didn't believe it and so wasn't interested, but thank you for caring. At this moment her face changed to purple rage and she followed me for about 50 yards shouting some drivel about going to the 'hot place'.

That's about it, but it paints a far from cosy picture of English evangelism. But I haven't met any of the more reasonable variety that you describe.

Religion is the ultimate con-job. It cons the conned, and it cons the conner.

Mr.T : "I ain't gettin' on no damn plane [sic]" - environmentalism at it's best


Strafio
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The Jehova's witness example

The Jehova's witness example is something I don't find surprising.
For all the nice things I said about these guys, you do have to keep your rational guard up and their attempts to 'save' you can leave you with very frustrating experiences!

The angry evangelical you met on the street, that is quite surprising from a Brit. I've never experienced anything like that.


PillarMyArse
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Jehovah's witnesses

Yes, I must admit the verbal attack in the street did somewhat take me by surprise. Normally they shrug and home in on their next target.

The witnesses are an altogether more sinister proposition - for example, being devout and godly did not hold Eunice Spry back from meting out years of horrific torture on three defenseless (and blameless) children.

There are other sects which I would regard as generally 'bad' - for example the Jesus Army which seeks converts amongst the homeless and destitute - brainwashing them and putting them to work in one of their financial interests.

Getting back to your original point though, I think it is a positive step if (hopefully I am understanding your point correctly) religion is being mutated into something more spiritual and less political than it is right now. I would worry though, if mysticism is being held over people's minds in a way that it is acceptable for them not to understand. This still leaves a path open for people to be manipulated en masse.

Religion is the ultimate con-job. It cons the conned, and it cons the conner.

Mr.T : "I ain't gettin' on no damn plane [sic]" - environmentalism at it's best