Oh, what the heck. We haven't talked about the 10 Commandments in a while

Hambydammit
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Oh, what the heck. We haven't talked about the 10 Commandments in a while

Let's talk about the 10 commandments. I have a couple of questions about them. First, just in case, let's make sure we all know what we're talking about.

Quote:
NIV: 1)"You shall have no other gods before me.

4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.

13 "You shall not murder.

14 "You shall not commit adultery.

15 "You shall not steal.

16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

Also, just so we are clear, here's what "covet" means:

Quote:
cov·et /ˈkʌvɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kuhv-it] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –verb (used with object)

1.to desire wrongfully, inordinately, or without due regard for the rights of others: to covet another's property.
2.to wish for, esp. eagerly: He won the prize they all coveted.
–verb (used without object)
3.to have an inordinate or wrongful desire.

Ok. Questions for theists:

1. How exactly can we obey number 10? It's not too difficult to avoid expressing desire for our neighbor's house, but the desire is either there or it isn't. This commandment, however, tells us not to desire things. This is impossible.

2. Why do so many Christians flippantly dismiss the one about the Sabbath? I notice that Walmart's open every Sunday, and by all accounts, Sam Walton was an upstanding Christian. Or, did I miss something where after Jesus sacrificed himself to himself so he could forgive us for what Adam and Eve did, we can work on Sunday now?

3. What exactly does it mean to take the Lord's name in vain? "Vain" of course, means:

vain /veɪn/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[veyn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation, –adjective, -er, -est.

1.excessively proud of or concerned about one's own appearance, qualities, achievements, etc.; conceited: a vain dandy.
2.proceeding from or showing personal vanity: vain remarks.
3.ineffectual or unsuccessful; futile: a vain effort.
4.without real significance, value, or importance; baseless or worthless: vain pageantry; vain display.
5.Archaic. senseless or foolish.
6.in vain,
a.without effect or avail; to no purpose: to apologize in vain.
b.in an improper or irreverent manner: to take God's name in vain.

 

This says "in an improper or irreverent manner" but it doesn't really say what's improper or irreverent.

4. The one about idols says two things. First, it says you shouldn't make any images. Then it says you shall not worship any images. So, why are there so many statues in churches?

5. In the same one, God says he punishes children for four generations for things their ancestors did. Could you please explain why it is proper to punish someone who didn't commit a crime?

6. Could you explain some math to me? If God punishes 4 generations for making images, and shows love to 1000 generations when nobody makes any images, how would he ever get to love for 1000 generations? That's a long time to not make any images. If this is more general, and applies to any sin, why would he bother saying that, if everybody's going to sin because that's the way god made them?

7. In light of this verse: Exodus 34:1 1 The LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke" why are the next 10 commandments different than the first?

 


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How many commandments are

How many commandments are there?

The reason I ask is because some Christian kid (Toby) at FreeThinkingTeens said that there are 12 commandents.

 


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I was going to mention that

I was going to mention that too.

 I did a Google search and came up with this.


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noor wrote: I was going to

noor wrote:

I was going to mention that too.

I did a Google search and came up with this.

This was probably written by the same people that think god's name is Howard.  You know.  It's in the lord's prayer..

Our father, who art in heaven, Howard be thy name........ 

 

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Oh, come on! Why do I have

Oh, come on!

Why do I have so much trouble getting theists to answer my questions?

I'm forever bumping my own posts until I get one or two feeble responses.

Come on, theists!  Your god wrote the perfect book of perfect laws, exemplified by the shining moral example of the 10 commandments!  Don't you even know them well enough to answer a few measly little objections from a heathen who can't see how perfect they are?

 

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vain /veɪn/

vain /veɪn/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[veyn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation, –adjective, -er, -est.

1.excessively proud of or concerned about one's own appearance, qualities, achievements, etc.; conceited: a vain dandy.
2.proceeding from or showing personal vanity: vain remarks.
3.ineffectual or unsuccessful; futile: a vain effort.
4.without real significance, value, or importance; baseless or worthless: vain pageantry; vain display.
5.Archaic. senseless or foolish.

6.in vain,
a.without effect or avail; to no purpose: to apologize in vain.
b.in an improper or irreverent manner: to take God's name in vain

 

 

Personally, I think the 4th or 5th dictionary meaning is perhaps a bit more applicable to the term 'god' and religion in general. 

 Why is it when you guys pose questions to the theists, they disappear?  I just don't get it...

If god takes life he's an indian giver


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Funny thing, actually...

Funny thing, actually... Theists are content to argue subjective topics all day long, but the moment you confront them with a simple, logical question, they remain silent.  You would think that their own silence would be a catalyst for examining their own beliefs.

There have been a few theists who've deconverted from their discussions on this site.  Maybe a few who have read this and not responded have actually stopped to wonder why they don't want to answer.

Probably not.

 

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You have a hard time

You have a hard time getting theists to answer your questions because they're a little difficult. I'm sure preachers have pat answers that make no sense. Perhaps one (or a flock member in the know [ba-a-a-a-a!]) will assist you.

As for me, I coveted my neighbor's ass at the gym this morning.

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doin' the bump  

doin' the bump

 

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No answer yet?!  imo, god

No answer yet?!  imo, god seems pretty insecure, threatening to punish 400 generations of people for idology and what not.  Sounds kind of like a jealous boyfriend/girlfriend, frankly.

Ok, that was lame, just trying to keep it going for ya.

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This pretty much pwns the

This pretty much pwns the 10 commandments:

 

http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/10comm.php

I also love how the only thing in the Bible actually called "The 10 Commandments" is totally different from the list. And it ends with "Thou shalt not seethe a kid in it's mothers milk." By the way, for the fanatics who think it's ok for them to be displayed in courthouses, etc - isn't that technically a "graven image?"

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LOL matt... I hadn't

LOL matt... I hadn't actually thought of that.  I suppose you could get out of that by saying that it's text, not an image, but it's still funny.

I've always thought it's funny that xtians only take 4 of them seriously.  Most don't say god damn, and generally all of them try to avoid stealing, killing, and lying.  Except for using the lord's name in vain, the other three have been part of every moral code... ever.  Funny that the best that all-powerful god could come up with was three of the most obvious moral tenets ever.

And for the theists who say, "We honor our father and mother..." That's so vague as to be nonsense.  When you're a kid, you obey them because you pretty much have to.  When you're old, you weigh their wishes against yours just like you do anyone else, except maybe you cut them a little slack because they're your parents.   How exactly is this groundbreaking morality?

 

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Our god is an awesome...I mean JEALOUS god!

Jealous indeed: Exodus 34:14: ‘You must worship no other gods, for the Lord, whose very name is Jealous, is a God who is jealous about his relationship with you’ (nlt)

Ask and ye shall receive. Sticking out tongue

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They always try to say when

They always try to say when they put out the irrational claim that the US is a Christian nation that our laws are based on the 10 commandments.

The 1st 4 are PURELY religous and have absolutely nothing to do with the law or morality.

There are no laws saying you have to honor your parents.

Only a few backwards-assed states have laws against adultery.

There certainly are no laws against coveting.

Murder and stealing, fine.

"Bearing false witness" - ie lying - is only sometimes illegal - in court, false advertising, libel/slander...

So we have anywhere from 2 to 4 out of 10. That's an "F" on most tests!

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Theists:  You have the

Theists: 

You have the right to remain silent.

However, your silence will be used against you, for we will think you don't have any answers.   I notice lots of other topics have had theist posts since I posted this one.

Perhaps... just perhaps... there's something wrong with the 10 Commandments...

 

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Those aren't the Ten Commandments

I don't think those are "THE TEN COMMANDMENTS"  I think these are:

1 The LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. 2 Be ready in the morning, and then come up on Mount Sinai. Present yourself to me there on top of the mountain. 3 No one is to come with you or be seen anywhere on the mountain; not even the flocks and herds may graze in front of the mountain."

 4 So Moses chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones and went up Mount Sinai early in the morning, as the LORD had commanded him; and he carried the two stone tablets in his hands. 5 Then the LORD came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the LORD. 6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation."

 8 Moses bowed to the ground at once and worshiped. 9 "O Lord, if I have found favor in your eyes," he said, "then let the Lord go with us. Although this is a stiff-necked people, forgive our wickedness and our sin, and take us as your inheritance."

 10 Then the LORD said: "I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, the LORD, will do for you. 11 Obey what I command you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 12 Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. 13 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles. 14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

 15 "Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices. 16 And when you choose some of their daughters as wives for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods, they will lead your sons to do the same.

 17 "Do not make cast idols.

 18 "Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in that month you came out of Egypt.

 19 "The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. 20 Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons.
      "No one is to appear before me empty-handed.

 21 "Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.

 22 "Celebrate the Feast of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the turn of the year.  23 Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign LORD, the God of Israel. 24 I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before the LORD your God.

 25 "Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Feast remain until morning.

 26 "Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the LORD your God.
      "Do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk."

 27 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." 28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.

The text of Exodus refers to these as "The Ten Commandments."  Editors' additions in most Bibles call the other set "the Ten Commandments," but if you're a true believer in the inerrancy of the text of the Bible, the above are the Ten Commandments.

Thandarr


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Regardless of the official

Regardless of the official name of the set of 10 commandments I was referrencing...

bumpity bumpity bump bump bump

 

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Hambydammit

Hambydammit wrote:

Theists: 

You have the right to remain silent.

However, your silence will be used against you, for we will think you don't have any answers.   I notice lots of other topics have had theist posts since I posted this one.

Perhaps... just perhaps... there's something wrong with the 10 Commandments...

 

 

Hey Hamby,

 You guys must have a short attention spanLaughing...This was all dealt with in the previous thread on the Ten Commandments.

Christianity (and the Bible) holds that we are no longer under the Law (Christ nailed it to the cross).

"having cancelled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross."  (Colossians 2:14) 

And contrary to M. Shizzle's false notions, this previous thread also contains primary source historical documenation that states that the Ten Commandments played a significant role in the history of our lawmaking (several citations from court cases and statements from founding fathers...there is also a link to an affadavit that was filed by expert David Barton in one of the Ten Commandment cases).

 Do you just like repeating previous questions that have already been soundly answered (and as if they haven't)?

 


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Thanks for the input, but

Thanks for the input, but there are a couple of things you missed.

1) This site is here for the theists, not for the atheists.  There isn't a question we haven't answered a hundred times, but we keep doing it, because every once in a while, someone listens and joins the ranks of the rational.  So, when something hasn't been addressed in a while, it's time to bring it up for the new theists haunting the boards... who, by the way, have been remarkably silent.

2) In the last thread, the questions (which were a bit different in some cases, if I recall) weren't answered.  You and others attempted to answer them.  Your answers were fallacious.  These fallacies were pointed out, and then the thread died.

I'm glad to hear from you, though.  I was beginning to think all the theists here had spontaneously deconverted and had no objections to my post.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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pby
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Hambydammit wrote: Thanks

Hambydammit wrote:

Thanks for the input, but there are a couple of things you missed.

1) This site is here for the theists, not for the atheists.  There isn't a question we haven't answered a hundred times, but we keep doing it, because every once in a while, someone listens and joins the ranks of the rational.  So, when something hasn't been addressed in a while, it's time to bring it up for the new theists haunting the boards... who, by the way, have been remarkably silent.

2) In the last thread, the questions (which were a bit different in some cases, if I recall) weren't answered.  You and others attempted to answer them.  Your answers were fallacious.  These fallacies were pointed out, and then the thread died.

I'm glad to hear from you, though.  I was beginning to think all the theists here had spontaneously deconverted and had no objections to my post.

 

You must not remember accurately...The questions were specifically answered (and not fallaciously) by theists and the thread died because the athiests' assertions about Christians and the Ten Commandments were soundly refuted (as was the athiest assertion that the Ten Commandments did not play a significant role in our Country's law-making history).

As I remember the thread, one athiest left the thread commenting that he was not aware of the Ten Commandment's role in our history's law-making (but now he was).

Would you like to re-visit the thread with me?

If your reason for posting the same type of question (when you allegedly understand that Christians, via the Bible, are no longer under the Ten Commandments) was for the education of the theists, then why would you ask the question in a manner that incorrectly puts the Christian back under the Ten Commandments?

If education of theists was your purpose, it would seem that you would accurately state the Christian belief (the Bible's teaching) in the body of your question (but you didn't). You stated it falsely to make your point (which was not for education purposes but to point out an alleged contradiction between Christian belief and practice).

 


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hamby,

hamby,

pby is correct as to the point of the 10 commandments...To a Christian there are only two and those being the two that Jesus left.

A Christian is no longer under the law because of the fulfillment from Jesus.

Romans 3:21-22: But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

Romans 6: 11-14: In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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Hambydammit wrote: In the

Hambydammit wrote:
In the last thread, the questions (which were a bit different in some cases, if I recall) weren't answered. You and others attempted to answer them. Your answers were fallacious. These fallacies were pointed out, and then the thread died.

Off topic...cause I gotta ask, but why is it that if you (and this is for most atheists on this forum too) ask a question that is discussing what the bible talks about, you are given the answer according to what is written by the bible, you dismiss it as fallacy?  Why bother asking the question if you know you won't like or agree with the answer?  It at times really sounds like a cop-out like since you don't have either: 1. a response or, 2. the understanding of what our answer is, then you simply say, "ah, stupid nonsense".

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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If christians are no longer

If christians are no longer under the code of the old testament, why do they keep trying to have them displayed in public places?

 

Regarding the "no longer under the law argument":

Matthew 5:17-19

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca


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Randalllord wrote: If

Randalllord wrote:

If christians are no longer under the code of the old testament, why do they keep trying to have them displayed in public places?

Regarding the "no longer under the law argument":

Matthew 5:17-19

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

As stated in my previous post to Hamby, this question was soundly answered in the last thread that contained this picture of Judge Moore and his monument.

Why ask again (as if it wasn't answered)? 

Even the lawsuit itself (and Judge Moore many times) answers the question. 


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Randalllord wrote: If

Randalllord wrote:
If christians are no longer under the code of the old testament, why do they keep trying to have them displayed in public places?

It's the old "doubting Thomas" senario.  If you don't see it, you won't believe.  I personally don't need to have it displayed and even "Under God" is not necessary to express my faith.  I do agree that for true separation of chruch and state, they should be removed.  When it gets stupid is when people are asking for them to be removed for the sake of being removed.  For example, faith-based holidays such as Christmas or Easter; if you aren't a believer why does it bother you?  No one said you had to participate...

Randalllord wrote:
Regarding the "no longer under the law argument":Matthew 5:17-19

Fulfill:

  • carry through: put in effect; "carry out a task"; "execute the decision of the people"; "He actioned the operation"
  • satisfy: fulfil the requirements or expectations of
  • meet: fill or meet a want or need

When under the law, it is required to follow the sacrifices of Leviticus and the laws given in Exodus.  Because Jesus FULFILLED those laws/prophesies, that is to say he completed the prophesies and became what was required by God to be the atonement.  It's a matter of understanding who Jesus was and why he had to come.  Besides, the two commandments, love God and love your neighbor as yourself, fulfill all previous commandments.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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Randalllord wrote: If

Randalllord wrote:

If christians are no longer under the code of the old testament, why do they keep trying to have them displayed in public places?

 

Regarding the "no longer under the law argument":

Matthew 5:17-19

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

 

Repeated from the last thread on this subject: 

"A people unschooled about the sovereignty of God, the Ten Commandments, and the ethics of Jesus, could never have evolved the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution. There is not one solitary fundamental principle of our democratic policy that did not stem directly from the basic moral concepts as emodied by the Decalogue..." (as declared by the Florida Supreme Court, in 1950)

This is the reason that the Ten Commandments are displayed in the US Supreme Court, the National Archives and publicbuildings/courthouses throughout the Land.

When certain peoples want the public display of the historical origins (the Ten Commandments) of our lawmaking removed...Other certain peoples, usually Christians, oppose their efforts.


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razorphreak said, "When it

razorphreak said, "When it gets stupid is when people are asking for them to be removed for the sake of being removed. "

 

This fundamentally incorrect. When religious displays are placed on public property they carry the weight of endorsement from that government that allowed them to be placed there. This violates the first admendment. Your right to believe anything you choose is not being violated by their removal, it's being protected. 

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PBY, The Florida supereme

PBY,

The Florida supereme court is not the US supreme court and therefore carries no weight on a federal issue. The 1950's were a low water mark for rational thinking regarding the seperation of church and state issues.

The Declaration of Independence was written by Thomas Jefferson, a deist, but certainaly not a Christian, so despite the remarks of this court they are historaically in error. 

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca


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Randalllord

Randalllord wrote:

razorphreak said, "When it gets stupid is when people are asking for them to be removed for the sake of being removed. "

This fundamentally incorrect. When religious displays are placed on public property they carry the weight of endorsement from that government that allowed them to be placed there. This violates the first admendment. Your right to believe anything you choose is not being violated by their removal, it's being protected.

Sorry I should have been more specific when I said stupid...

I'm talking about when movements go on about removing non-government or non-government related religious based holidays, objects, and so on. That's why I followed it up with the example of Christmas and Easter.  Sorry...

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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It is completely idiotic to

It is completely idiotic to claim that the bill of rights comes from the 10 commandments when the 1st 4 are directly opposed to the Bill of Rights. None of them have anything to do with rights, they have to do with prohibiting behavior (only 3 of which involve harming other people in any way.) The Bible is definitely not democratic, and is actually anti-democratic.

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Quote: It is completely

Quote:
It is completely idiotic to claim that the bill of rights comes from the 10 commandments when the 1st 4 are directly opposed to the Bill of Rights. None of them have anything to do with rights, they have to do with prohibiting behavior (only 3 of which involve harming other people in any way.) The Bible is definitely not democratic, and is actually anti-democratic.

Matt, the whole Christian religion is non-democratic, dude. I've never seen any elections for god, and I've never seen any "complaints box" that will actually be listened to (related to prayer).

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Luckilly the Bible is

Luckilly the Bible is Bullshit and God is fictional.


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Hmm... I almost got sucked

Hmm... I almost got sucked into the Off-Topic Vortex of Death.

Razor, pby, you haven't really addressed anything I asked.  It's cool if you don't want to.  I'm actually ok granting you that Jesus intended for us to ignore the old testament after he came.  (in the hypothetical sense, of course, since I am not granting that Moses or Jesus actually existed!)

The questions I raised still applied to people for what?  4000 years, if you believe the bible's chronology?  Or maybe 3000 or so, I don't recall how long after Adam and Eve Moses was supposed to have lived.   It's irrelevant.

So, just for shits and giggles, anyone want to answer those questions as they applied to old testament people?  Is getting pissed about statues, punishing children for their great grandfather's sin, and telling people not to have desires reasonable?

As far as the current relevance of the commandments, I think Randallord has done a pretty good job of pointing out the irrationality of the whole government/religion thing.  I'm sorry you guys don't see it.  Really, I am, because it's just simple logic, and it pains me that so many people are so brainwashed that they can no longer recognize simple logic.

 

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Rigor_OMortis wrote: I've

Rigor_OMortis wrote:
I've never seen any elections for god, and I've never seen any "complaints box" that will actually be listened to (related to prayer).

Why would we?  First God is the creator so for me to tell him how to do his job is, as written in Romans, like a pot telling the potter why did you make me this way.  Is it for us to question it?  Should the car question the car maker why didn't you make me with 5 wheels?  Should the watch tell the watch maker why didn't you get me a few more hours?  It's not a democracy and it never has been because, just as you who create an object for a purpose, God creates us for a reason and it is not subject to debate.

Matt, I don't really care that you think the bible is bs.  I think that is pretty well established by the fact that you are associating yourself as an atheist.  What I'm trying to say here is, don't have anything constructive to add to the topic? 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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This is all very

This is all very uninteresting.  Would anyone care to actually address the topic questions?

 

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Oh, and I realize that if

Oh, and I realize that if you say Jesus negated the 10, then we can work on sunday now.  You don't have to answer that one.

 

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Hambydammit wrote: Ok.

Hambydammit wrote:
Ok. Questions for theists:

1. How exactly can we obey number 10? It's not too difficult to avoid expressing desire for our neighbor's house, but the desire is either there or it isn't. This commandment, however, tells us not to desire things. This is impossible.

 I believe the commandment reads as such:

You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor

It's all about respect.  You know the story of the other guy in the office taking credit for work someone else did?  Same thing... 

2. Why do so many Christians flippantly dismiss the one about the Sabbath? I notice that Walmart's open every Sunday, and by all accounts, Sam Walton was an upstanding Christian. Or, did I miss something where after Jesus sacrificed himself to himself so he could forgive us for what Adam and Eve did, we can work on Sunday now?

This was properly handled by Jesus.  It is about the labor you do on a daily basis, like your job, but not about doing NOTHING.

Matthew 12:11-12 What man is there among you who has a sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable then is a man than a sheep! So then, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.

3. What exactly does it mean to take the Lord's name in vain? "Vain" of course, means:

vain /veɪn/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[veyn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation, –adjective, -er, -est.

1.excessively proud of or concerned about one's own appearance, qualities, achievements, etc.; conceited: a vain dandy.
2.proceeding from or showing personal vanity: vain remarks.
3.ineffectual or unsuccessful; futile: a vain effort.
4.without real significance, value, or importance; baseless or worthless: vain pageantry; vain display.
5.Archaic. senseless or foolish.
6.in vain,
a.without effect or avail; to no purpose: to apologize in vain.
b.in an improper or irreverent manner: to take God's name in vain.

 

This says "in an improper or irreverent manner" but it doesn't really say what's improper or irreverent.

Think judgments.  You can call me any name under the sun but if they come with judgments then you are acting in an irreverent manner. 

4. The one about idols says two things. First, it says you shouldn't make any images. Then it says you shall not worship any images. So, why are there so many statues in churches?

"Doubting Thomas" scenario.  Not all do this though.  Kinda hard to break some people from traditions though...

5. In the same one, God says he punishes children for four generations for things their ancestors did. Could you please explain why it is proper to punish someone who didn't commit a crime?

It's all about God's will.  From the text it's obvious that the Hebrews did not appreciate the help that God gave in removing them from Egypt as they disobeyed him the first chance they got.  To teach them humility, and to be sure that it was not forgotten, that was their penance.  It is what it was...

6. Could you explain some math to me? If God punishes 4 generations for making images, and shows love to 1000 generations when nobody makes any images, how would he ever get to love for 1000 generations? That's a long time to not make any images. If this is more general, and applies to any sin, why would he bother saying that, if everybody's going to sin because that's the way god made them?

7. In light of this verse: Exodus 34:1 1 The LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke" why are the next 10 commandments different than the first?

Two different sets.  Two different points in time.  There are not different sets of "10 commandments" but the original are considered the "word from God" and the second and even their later in Deuteronomy 4 (the summation of the other two) are simply different sets of commandments written by the hand of man, not God.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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Quote: Why would we? 

Quote:
Why would we?  First God is the creator so for me to tell him how to do his job is, as written in Romans, like a pot telling the potter why did you make me this way.  Is it for us to question it?  Should the car question the car maker why didn't you make me with 5 wheels?  Should the watch tell the watch maker why didn't you get me a few more hours?  It's not a democracy and it never has been because, just as you who create an object for a purpose, God creates us for a reason and it is not subject to debate.

Is it just me, or have we just been called objects?

 

Anyway, Ham, I'm going to further expand your line of logic to show that the point at which you stopped with the question is the wrong one. One can go much further with some.

Quote:
1. How exactly can we obey number 10? It's not too difficult to avoid expressing desire for our neighbor's house, but the desire is either there or it isn't. This commandment, however, tells us not to desire things. This is impossible.

I wish to correct you here. It is VERY difficult to NOT express that desire. The law works for "thy neighbour's wife", if you know for sure that she is married, but it doesn't work well for the others. Expressing desire happens all day: you go to a shop to buy something. What do you do there? You express desire for what it is that you wish to buy... let's say a pair of pliers, a jumber cable, a lawnmower, whatever it might be. Technically, all those things that are there are "thy neighbour's"... but without expressing desire, there would be no exchange, there would be no buying and selling... practically there would be absolutely no economy. If we apply this to chosing a sexual partner, not expressing desire means no sexual activity. How are people supposed to find a husband or wife then? Oh yes, I know... through "arranged marriages" when they're kids, or perhaps through total woman submission if a man wishes to marry her, like suggested in the Bible... my foot !

Quote:
4. The one about idols says two things. First, it says you shouldn't make any images. Then it says you shall not worship any images. So, why are there so many statues in churches?

This one is a very twisted one. It doesn't say "don't make idols"... it does say "don't make graven images"... Would that extend to role models as well? Practically what little kids are doing is a lower form of worship... psychologically it's tng: pasting posters of a rock star, or something, all over the room, looking at them, admiring and wanting to be like the one they represent. If you answer "yes", then posters, memory necklaces, etc. will all have to be banned.

Quote:
5. In the same one, God says he punishes children for four generations for things their ancestors did. Could you please explain why it is proper to punish someone who didn't commit a crime?

I really really want to know the answer to this one. 4 generations is probably the lowest punishment that God has given throughout the Bible... Considering Adam and Eve, that punishment was eternal. I know what theists are going to say here: we are not punished for Adam and Eve's sins. False: we are. It's like forcibly introducing a genetic malformation into one's DNA and saying "Don't worry, I'll give your kids the opportunity to do physiotherapy and overcome their disability if they want."

 

So... an extended set of questions.

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Quote: I believe the

Quote:
I believe the commandment reads as such:

You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor

It's all about respect.  You know the story of the other guy in the office taking credit for work someone else did?  Same thing...

 

This is your own personal interpretation. I see nothing of that kind within the commandment. How can you take credit for someone else's wife or servants, for instance?

Also, check my extension of the question.

Quote:
This was properly handled by Jesus.  It is about the labor you do on a daily basis, like your job, but not about doing NOTHING.

Matthew 12:11-12 What man is there among you who has a sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable then is a man than a sheep! So then, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.

 

No, it wasn't dealt with. In that Matthew quotation, Jesus only states about doing GOOD on the Sabbath... not about doing WORK. Again, that's your own personal interpretation of the scripture.

Quote:
Think judgments.  You can call me any name under the sun but if they come with judgments then you are acting in an irreverent manner.

Are you suggesting that if I say "Goddammit" it's OK, but if I say "The Holy Spirit is a harsh mistress" (whatever, you understand what I mean), that last one breaks the commandment?

Quote:
"Doubting Thomas" scenario.  Not all do this though.  Kinda hard to break some people from traditions though...

So what? Does that make them less sins?

Quote:
It's all about God's will.  From the text it's obvious that the Hebrews did not appreciate the help that God gave in removing them from Egypt as they disobeyed him the first chance they got.  To teach them humility, and to be sure that it was not forgotten, that was their penance.  It is what it was...

So, once again... why were the Hebrew CHILDREN that were NOT BORN punished for the sins that THEY DID NOT DO, and that THEY COULD NOT INFLUENCE ?

You dodged the question almost perfectly.

Quote:
Two different sets.  Two different points in time.  There are not different sets of "10 commandments" but the original are considered the "word from God" and the second and even their later in Deuteronomy 4 (the summation of the other two) are simply different sets of commandments written by the hand of man, not God.

That's false, razorphreak. The second set that Ham was talking are described clearly in Exodus 34. At the end, it states:

Quote:
And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments. (Exodus 34:28)

So beyond doubt, these are the "ten commandments". The second set. The "original" ones, I for one have no idea what they are.

Also, there's a small mystery around here... as Moses is said to have received the tables on mount Sinai in one place (Exodus, Leviticus), as we all know, but also on mount Horeb, in other places (1 Kings 8:9, 2 Chronicles 5:10, Maleachi 4:4)... and from my knowledge, they are two different mountains.

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Rigor_OMortis wrote: This

Rigor_OMortis wrote:
This one is a very twisted one. It doesn't say "don't make idols"... it does say "don't make graven images"... Would that extend to role models as well? Practically what little kids are doing is a lower form of worship... psychologically it's tng: pasting posters of a rock star, or something, all over the room, looking at them, admiring and wanting to be like the one they represent. If you answer "yes", then posters, memory necklaces, etc. will all have to be banned.

I'm actually kinda glad that you brought this point up rigor because this is one of those forever and a day questions that seems to never end.  When I posted before about "doubting Thomas" is true, but as you were saying idol vs. graven image.  The point the commandment is trying to make is simply about worshiping something made by man.  If you put more value in a statue, money, a person, so on, over God that is worship and that is the sin... 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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rigor, I've got a

rigor, I've got a question.  You who do not understand nor believe in the bible ask the question, then receive the answer, and then turn around and tell me I'm wrong??  Umm no disrespect but I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about.  If you are so smart in the understanding of these things by all means give the right answers...

*sigh*

OK sorry..ranting....

Rigor_OMortis wrote:
Jesus only states about doing GOOD on the Sabbath... not about doing WORK. Again, that's your own personal interpretation of the scripture.

Ummm...didn't I just say that?  It's directly from the bible, so how is it my personal explanation?  The sabbath is about serving God and keeping a day for God.  Jesus explains it's not about shutting down to do nothing at all...

Rigor_OMortis wrote:
Are you suggesting that if I say "Goddammit" it's OK, but if I say "The Holy Spirit is a harsh mistress" (whatever, you understand what I mean), that last one breaks the commandment?

More or less.  Thing is, if you were keeping to loving God, you wouldn't say either... 

Rigor_OMortis wrote:
So what? Does that make them less sins?

Nope.  See my response to your addition... 

Rigor_OMortis wrote:
So, once again... why were the Hebrew CHILDREN that were NOT BORN punished for the sins that THEY DID NOT DO, and that THEY COULD NOT INFLUENCE ?

If it's God's will then it was so.  God didn't give us the reason why, though I have my hunch it was about leadership (and who lead Israel after it was over).

Rigor_OMortis wrote:
That's false, razorphreak. The second set that Ham was talking are described clearly in Exodus 34. At the end, it states: ...

So beyond doubt, these are the "ten commandments". The second set. The "original" ones, I for one have no idea what they are.

Also, there's a small mystery around here... as Moses is said to have received the tables on mount Sinai in one place (Exodus, Leviticus), as we all know, but also on mount Horeb, in other places (1 Kings 8:9, 2 Chronicles 5:10, Maleachi 4:4)... and from my knowledge, they are two different mountains.

The only time that the commandments are written by God are the FIRST time Moses when up the hill.  Those therefore are considered THE 10 commandments.   Get it?

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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Well, rigor, I appreciate

Well, rigor, I appreciate your answers to razor.  They're thorough, accurate, and completely (as yet) unrefuted.  I won't bother with my own thoughts until razor has succesfully responded to yours.

My only comment is that I do wonder why perfect god had to make the commandments so um... interpretable.  I mean, there's no asterisk with a footnote like "*Please note that these commandments are meant to be interpreted in the best possible way.  Any attempts to interpret them literally may result in Holy War.  Please refrain from such attempts.  Thank you.  Yahweh."

But, luckily, we have razor here to share the One True Interpretation with us.

Where would we be without him?   Too damn bad he couldn't have lived a little before Muhammed and put an end to all this Islam nonsense.

 

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Quote: I'm actually kinda

Quote:
I'm actually kinda glad that you brought this point up rigor because this is one of those forever and a day questions that seems to never end.  When I posted before about "doubting Thomas" is true, but as you were saying idol vs. graven image.  The point the commandment is trying to make is simply about worshiping something made by man.  If you put more value in a statue, money, a person, so on, over God that is worship and that is the sin...

OK, though this is again your own personal interpretation, let's say that I'll go on with this argument.

Quote:
rigor, I've got a question.  You who do not understand nor believe in the bible ask the question, then receive the answer, and then turn around and tell me I'm wrong??  Umm no disrespect but I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about.  If you are so smart in the understanding of these things by all means give the right answers...

That really set off my fuse.

In that case, Mr. KnowHowToInterpretAll... give me the one good reason why YOUR interpretation is right. Because for the same reason Luther thought he was right, Calvin thought he was right, that guy from the Mormons thought he was right, etc. And what do we have? As many cults as interpretations of the major Biblical points.

I'll deal with the responses point by point:

Quote:
Ummm...didn't I just say that?  It's directly from the bible, so how is it my personal explanation?  The sabbath is about serving God and keeping a day for God.  Jesus explains it's not about shutting down to do nothing at all...

Dude, I wasn't responding to the RED quotes, but to the YELLOW quotes... I damn realized that it was a quotation from the Bible. The way you "translated" it was what I'm commenting about. And yes, that IS your own personal interpretation.

Actually, now that I think of it, the original question was: "2. Why do so many Christians flippantly dismiss the one about the Sabbath? I notice that Walmart's open every Sunday, and by all accounts, Sam Walton was an upstanding Christian. Or, did I miss something where after Jesus sacrificed himself to himself so he could forgive us for what Adam and Eve did, we can work on Sunday now?"

To that, you responded: "It is about the labor you do on a daily basis, like your job, but not about doing NOTHING."

So... you're not allowed to do your job, but you shouldn't just do "nothing". Well, though I agree with you on the not doing nothing part, the original question posted by Ham was PRECISELY about your regular job. So, the question remains: Why is then Walmart open?

Quote:
More or less.  Thing is, if you were keeping to loving God, you wouldn't say either...

OK, I understood the principle. So... to what precise extent are you allowed to use God's name without it being considered "in vain" ? We wish to know the limits of this sin.

Quote:
If it's God's will then it was so.  God didn't give us the reason why, though I have my hunch it was about leadership (and who lead Israel after it was over).

Come now ! God is omnipotent ! Could he not just have spoken to the people of Israel and said "This is who I want to be your king! Obey me! Whoever disobeys will be destroyed!" I really don't think that an omnipotent, omniscient God cannot find a sollution better than torturing innocents.

Quote:
The only time that the commandments are written by God are the FIRST time Moses when up the hill.  Those therefore are considered THE 10 commandments.   Get it?

Dude! I just gave you the quotation from the Bible where it says you're wrong! Why don't YOU get it? You said:

Quote:
You who do not understand nor believe in the bible ask the question, then receive the answer, and then turn around and tell me I'm wrong??

I tell you you're wrong, because I have just proven you're wrong. You have only asserted about the "original" commandments, you have not brought proof of your claims, whereas I just brought proof of the contrary.

You say I don't understand the Bible. How do you conclude that? I've seeked and quoted passages from it to support my assertions, and they are not out-of-context-s or fallacious in being quoted. You, on the other hand, have only given interpretations. At least one of which actually supports Ham's point rather than yours.

 

Also, could you give me the response to the "coveting" thing ? That has remained unanswered.

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Quote: My only comment is

Quote:
My only comment is that I do wonder why perfect god had to make the commandments so um... interpretable.  I mean, there's no asterisk with a footnote like "*Please note that these commandments are meant to be interpreted in the best possible way.  Any attempts to interpret them literally may result in Holy War.  Please refrain from such attempts.  Thank you.  Yahweh."

...which reminds me: Adrian Barnett once put forth the "Ten Ammendments"... "commented" versions of the ten commandments, with a bottom note explaining each a bit more into detail: http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/amendments.html, of course, on a funnier note.

Also, he devised ten different commandments, updated for modern age: http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/alt_commandments.html

Quote:
Where would we be without him?   Too damn bad he couldn't have lived a little before Muhammed and put an end to all this Islam nonsense.

LMBO !!! (B for bottom, as to show some respect for the unfortunate animal whose name just happened to be the same as what A usually stands for in this combination - yeah, Jesus used it too... You know, when he came to Jerusalem... so is it a sin to say LMAO ?)

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Hambydammit
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Safe to say razor has

Safe to say razor has failed to answer my questions or your responses, rigor.

Any other theists?

Defend your god, please.

 

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Rigor_OMortis wrote: OK,

Rigor_OMortis wrote:
OK, though this is again your own personal interpretation, let's say that I'll go on with this argument....In that case, Mr. KnowHowToInterpretAll... give me the one good reason why YOUR interpretation is right. Because for the same reason Luther thought he was right, Calvin thought he was right, that guy from the Mormons thought he was right, etc. And what do we have? As many cults as interpretations of the major Biblical points.

I didn't realize that what I wrote is any different than what they have written.  Please elaborate... 

Rigor_OMortis wrote:
Why is then Walmart open?

First because not all believe.  Second because the work done at Walmart can be considered good for society.  If the work is done for God, why not? 

Rigor_OMortis wrote:
I really don't think that an omnipotent, omniscient God cannot find a sollution better than torturing innocents.

Now that's a personal interpretation... 

Rigor_OMortis wrote:
Dude! I just gave you the quotation from the Bible where it says you're wrong!

And I just told you that the one and only one written by God himself was??? 

Rigor_OMortis wrote:
Also, could you give me the response to the "coveting" thing ? That has remained unanswered.

To covet means what?  To desire something, especially in the context that someone else has.   

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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um... yeah. So, maybe you

um... yeah.

So, maybe you could read the question on covetting before trying to answer it?

And please, for the love of Marduk, could you tell us and the rest of the world where you got the decoder ring so you know the correct interpretation of the ten commandments that you know are the correct ones because you got the secret decoder ring that told you which set of ten was the real set?

 

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razorphreak

razorphreak wrote:

Rigor_OMortis wrote:
Why is then Walmart open?

First because not all believe. Second because the work done at Walmart can be considered good for society. If the work is done for God, why not?

Somehow I just cannot imagine that Walmart being open on Sunday is done for your god.  I suspect that it's for the almightly dollar.

The employees at Walmart that work for minimum wage... I'll bet a lot of them would rather be in church!

 

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Quote: So, maybe you could

Quote:
So, maybe you could read the question on covetting before trying to answer it?

And please, for the love of Marduk, could you tell us and the rest of the world where you got the decoder ring so you know the correct interpretation of the ten commandments that you know are the correct ones because you got the secret decoder ring that told you which set of ten was the real set?

I've read it.  I've answered it.  The only thing that seems to work with you is straight forward definitions...so that's why I reverted back to that.

As far as WHERE I got my decoder ring, well, I've said it before, several times, on previous threads, and you didn't accept it or believe it.  Why rinse and repeat... 

Susan wrote:
Somehow I just cannot imagine that Walmart being open on Sunday is done for your god. I suspect that it's for the almightly dollar.

The employees at Walmart that work for minimum wage... I'll bet a lot of them would rather be in church!

Then what does that tell you?  Which God does Walmart serve?  I gave an example for understanding, not meant to be the shining example of Godliness... 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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I don't quite know how to

I don't quite know how to respond except by saying that it's not my fault that your comprehension skills aren't up to task.

If you understood my question, you'd see that the definition is what makes the commandment irrational.

 Try reading it again.

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Hambydammit wrote: I don't

Hambydammit wrote:
I don't quite know how to respond except by saying that it's not my fault that your comprehension skills aren't up to task.

If you understood my question, you'd see that the definition is what makes the commandment irrational.

Try reading it again.

Yet this whole thread is does not apply towards Christians.  I gave you what the bible says.  You told me it was my personal interpretation and rejected it.  You even told me that I was flowing against what Luther and other bible scholars have said in the past (yet have yet to tell me where I go against what they said - note on this, don't put dogma into the conversation).  Now I can't comprehend.  Don't know what else to tell ya...I've defended my faith.  I can't help you if you don't understand the answer...

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire