Common christian myths

todangst
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Common christian myths

Yes, I know that christianity itself is a myth, but my intention here is to get a good list of common myths christians hold to, concerning their myth, christianity.

What I mean is this, how often do you see the following claims/behaviors by theists on our boards?

1) "I was an atheist until age... 20,21,22, etc."

or

"I examined all the possible religions/worldviews and came to the conclusion that christianity made the most sense"

How is it that EVERY theist who manages to find his or her way to our boards wasn't raised a christian, but instead came to christianity through a long, arduent study of the world? How is it that we are so fortunate to be graced by such scholarly folk?

Research tends to show that such people would be exceedingly rare... most people follow the religion of their parents. Yet all of our theists only became theists after rational inquiry!

What an amazing coincidence! 

 Here's another one

2) "Hi board, I have come to help you all out. Here is an argument for you to consider"

The argument is then.. pascal's wager, or a link to Kent Hovind's site, or Carm, or some other ridiculous nonsense.

Why is it that every theist imagines we haven't heard this before? My sense is that their thought process goes like this "They must not know this, for if they did, they'd be christians..."

So it follows that the fact that there are rational people who have refutations for these arguments is something these theists do not want to consider...

Do any of you have more of these sorts of common 'myths' that christians hold about christians, or christianity? I'd like to make a list.

 

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"Just look around you with

"Just look around you with awe at the beauty of the world. This certainly must have been created by god because all of nature couldn't happen by itself."

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Susan wrote: "Just look

Susan wrote:
"Just look around you with awe at the beauty of the world. This certainly must have been created by god because all of nature couldn't happen by itself."

Yes, the argument from wonder. That's a pretty common one too, and it's based on a personal myth, of sorts: "my little tiny sliver of the world is beautiful"

I doubt a child in Darfur would come to the same argument... 

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

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In minor defense of the

In minor defense of the Christians that claim they were atheists until they were 20ish, it IS entirely possible.  For one thing, everyone is an atheist until they decide not to be.  They may have just never thought a deep thought until that point.  I can honestly say that I was an agnostic atheist until I was about 10, then I was an agnostic theist until I was about 12, and then I was an atheist again.  Just a thought, maybe it can take some people the first 20 years of their life to even concider what they believe. 

A daughter of hope and fear, religion explains to Ignorance the nature of the unknowable. -Ambrose Bierce


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Heya tod....interesting

Heya tod....interesting post...

todangst wrote:
What I mean is this, how often do you see the following claims/behaviors by theists on our boards?

1) "I was an atheist until age... 20,21,22, etc."

or

"I examined all the possible religions/worldviews and came to the conclusion that christianity made the most sense"

How is it that EVERY theist who manages to find his or her way to our boards wasn't raised a christian, but instead came to christianity through a long, arduent study of the world? How is it that we are so fortunate to be graced by such scholarly folk?

Research tends to show that such people would be exceedingly rare... most people follow the religion of their parents. Yet all of our theists only became theists after rational inquiry!

What an amazing coincidence!

Tell me if someone told you they saw a ghost...do you discredit them as quickly?  Wait, don't answer that cause I already know what you'll say.

 It's not easy to accept someone at their word. A very dear friend of mine was raised Catholic.  After finding no reason to believe, he in turn lived his life much according to his own desires: sex in and out of relationships with someone who was not his significant other, drugs, drinking, violence, disrespect for life and those on this planet.  I saw a change in him with my own eyes, a change that does not happen overnight without something else interceding.  He attributes his change to God doing to him what is written about what was done to Paul; he got knocked off his horse and was blind for a few days until the spirit worked in him to show him the word from the bible.  I can't discredit him because I knew full well who he was and when I know I hear God myself and God's will telling me to listen to my friend who's tone is a complete 180 from before, well that's "proof" to me.  I guess you'll probably respond to that with "had to be there"....

 

todangst wrote:
2) "Hi board, I have come to help you all out. Here is an argument for you to consider"

I know I know...I actually like the "well the bible said it so how can you not believe!!" better.  What else have I seen...."you are going to hell" and "God will punish you" and so on and so on.  Nobody's perfect...people will make mistakes....((shrugg)) 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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ShadowOfMan wrote: In minor

ShadowOfMan wrote:
In minor defense of the Christians that claim they were atheists until they were 20ish, it IS entirely possible.

I don't rule it out as a possibility, I just question why every theist, when asked, makes the same claim...

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

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razorphreak wrote: Heya

razorphreak wrote:

Heya tod....interesting post...

todangst wrote:
What I mean is this, how often do you see the following claims/behaviors by theists on our boards?

1) "I was an atheist until age... 20,21,22, etc."

or

"I examined all the possible religions/worldviews and came to the conclusion that christianity made the most sense"

How is it that EVERY theist who manages to find his or her way to our boards wasn't raised a christian, but instead came to christianity through a long, arduent study of the world? How is it that we are so fortunate to be graced by such scholarly folk?

Research tends to show that such people would be exceedingly rare... most people follow the religion of their parents. Yet all of our theists only became theists after rational inquiry!

What an amazing coincidence!

Tell me if someone told you they saw a ghost...do you discredit them as quickly? Wait, don't answer that cause I already know what you'll say.

It's not easy to accept someone at their word. A very dear friend of mine was raised Catholic. After finding no reason to believe, he in turn lived his life much according to his own desires: sex in and out of relationships with someone who was not his significant other, drugs, drinking, violence, disrespect for life and those on this planet. I saw a change in him with my own eyes, a change that does not happen overnight without something else interceding. He attributes his change to God doing to him what is written about what was done to Paul; he got knocked off his horse and was blind for a few days until the spirit worked in him to show him the word from the bible. I can't discredit him because I knew full well who he was and when I know I hear God myself and God's will telling me to listen to my friend who's tone is a complete 180 from before, well that's "proof" to me. I guess you'll probably respond to that with "had to be there"....

todangst wrote:
2) "Hi board, I have come to help you all out. Here is an argument for you to consider"

I know I know...I actually like the "well the bible said it so how can you not believe!!" better. What else have I seen...."you are going to hell" and "God will punish you" and so on and so on. Nobody's perfect...people will make mistakes....((shrugg))

Dude, you are one cool theist. Thanks for your input. 

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

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todangst wrote: What I

todangst wrote:

What I mean is this, how often do you see the following claims/behaviors by theists on our boards?

1) "I was an atheist until age... 20,21,22, etc."

or

"I examined all the possible religions/worldviews and came to the conclusion that christianity made the most sense"

How is it that EVERY theist who manages to find his or her way to our boards wasn't raised a christian, but instead came to christianity through a long, arduent study of the world? How is it that we are so fortunate to be graced by such scholarly folk?

Research tends to show that such people would be exceedingly rare... most people follow the religion of their parents. Yet all of our theists only became theists after rational inquiry!

What an amazing coincidence!

Here's my take on this. Maybe the Christians who used to be atheist are more likely to have the desire to dialog with us because they can identify with us. Maybe this biases the "sample" of Christians who post here.


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1. Of course Jesus existed,

1. Of course Jesus existed, despite lack of evidence, afterall, we know (insert any historical figure whose existence has greater validity here) existed even though there's just as much lack of evidence. (I love this one because it's almost like they're helping to disprove Jesus existed)

2. The Boeing 747 or Watchmaker argument that insists Natural Selection suggests things happened by chance despite the word "selection" in the theory.

3. Since science can't explain everything (ex. We can't say what caused the Big Bang), then science is not trustworthy. 

4. Evolution is only a "theory," and thus not fact. (clearly no knowledge of what a scientific theory really means)

5. Theists need to commit violence to be considered extremists, but atheists just need to start a conversation or write a book to be extremists.

6. The battered wife defense - God only beats me because he looooooooooooves me! And gosh darn it, it's my fault, cause sometimes I just make his so angry.

7. Jesus preached peace and love.

8. Jesus was bigger than The Beatles. No one's bigger than The Beatles.

9. This passage in the bible is literal, and this one right here--that's just allegorical.  

10. The Bible, the cross, and the church aren't violations of the 2nd commandment 


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AModestProposal wrote: 8.

AModestProposal wrote:
8. Jesus was bigger than The Beatles. No one's bigger than The Beatles.

Amen to that. According to this Wikipedia article, "By October 1972, the Beatles’ worldwide sales total stood at 545 million units." In 1972! No artist today will ever come close.


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One of the bigger

One of the bigger myths:  A world without christianity is a world without morals and filled with violence.   

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
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1. America is a Christian

1. America is a Christian Nation, and was founded by Christians.

 

 I have no idea how many times I have had to refute this.

 

2. Being an Atheist or believing in science takes just as much faith as theism.

 

3. There is evidence in favor of theism, not so much for atheism.

 

"The idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I am unable to take seriously." [Albert Einstein, letter to Hoffman and Dukas, 1946]


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This is excellent, keep the

This is excellent, keep the suggestions coming...


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http://www.godhatesfags.com

http://www.godhatesfags.com

 Need I say more?  Confused individuals about what God's word is really saying...

Oh...anyone remember the Christian group that boycotted Ford for helping individuals victims of "gay bashing", calling it justified? 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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One that I find extremely

One that I find extremely insulting, both personally and to my intelligence, is that Christianity and the Enlightenment are positively linked.  That the Enlightenment was somehow an affirmation of Judeo-Christian philosophy (as much as one can be derived under that title ...) and that America, as the jewel and zeneth of Western civilization, was founded by pious, Christian men on pious Christian principles ...

The truth, I think, is that the Enlightenment project was critical of dogma and faith, esp. Christianity.  Also, the Enlightenement, along with the Scientific Revolution, essentially invented the notion of a seperate magesterium from religion: secular, civil society ... Through it's authoritarian nature, Modern, conservative Evangelical Christianity is actually undermining (or attempting to undermine) all that we have gained from the Enlightenment ...

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razorphreak

razorphreak wrote:

http://www.godhatesfags.com

Need I say more? Confused individuals about what God's word is really saying...

Oh...anyone remember the Christian group that boycotted Ford for helping individuals victims of "gay bashing", calling it justified?

 

They are confused? Seems they are following the bible closer then what many christians do. It says being gay is an abomination. So, I personally, respect the fact that they follow the word they say they follow more closely. I think the word is totall crap but at least they aren't hypocritcal for not following some of what it teaches. 


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This is a little off the

This is a little off the beaten path, and applies more to the "moderate" theists.  My mom has moved from fundy to moderate, and has admitted to me privately that she doesn't buy everything the church says about god.  One of the things that has a choke hold on her logic is that she believes that the church is a worthwhile institution (even if it gets god wrong) because of all the charitable work it does.

She says repeatedly that the people are good and the church is the best way for people of like minds to get together to do good things for others.

(The odd thing, of course, is that she does all sorts of good things for her neighbors without any help from the church.  Why this doesn't occur to her, I don't know.)

 

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zntneo wrote: They are

zntneo wrote:
They are confused? Seems they are following the bible closer then what many christians do. It says being gay is an abomination. So, I personally, respect the fact that they follow the word they say they follow more closely. I think the word is totall crap but at least they aren't hypocritcal for not following some of what it teaches.

Romans 2:1-4 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth (referring to Romans 1:18-32). So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

No where does it say that WE (the humans on earth) are to condemn.  God is the ONLY one who can condemn and we should not judge.  This is why Jesus' words are clear; "Let he who has no sin cast the first stone."   They really are NOT following the New Testament teachings and this is what makes a Christian different from the Old Testament.  A Christian should reference the OT but follow the NT.

They are not following the word; they are being hypocritical to the true meaning of what it means to follow in the example of Jesus Christ....hence why this is a "Christian Myth".

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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Hambydammit wrote: This is

Hambydammit wrote:
This is a little off the beaten path, and applies more to the "moderate" theists. My mom has moved from fundy to moderate, and has admitted to me privately that she doesn't buy everything the church says about god. One of the things that has a choke hold on her logic is that she believes that the church is a worthwhile institution (even if it gets god wrong) because of all the charitable work it does.

She says repeatedly that the people are good and the church is the best way for people of like minds to get together to do good things for others.

(The odd thing, of course, is that she does all sorts of good things for her neighbors without any help from the church. Why this doesn't occur to her, I don't know.)

It is odd that those who involve themselves in fellowship (becasue that's what going to chruch is supposed to be) actually alienate themselves from others the moment their hour is up. The "chruch" is not a building or an organized religion; it is SUPPOSED to be the followers of Jesus.  Following the dogma of an organized religion really is the beginning of the end as the "law" for Christians comes from the bible.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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todangst wrote: 1) "I was

todangst wrote:
1) "I was an atheist until age... 20,21,22, etc."

or

"I examined all the possible religions/worldviews and came to the conclusion that christianity made the most sense"

How is it that EVERY theist who manages to find his or her way to our boards wasn't raised a christian, but instead came to christianity through a long, arduent study of the world? How is it that we are so fortunate to be graced by such scholarly folk?

 

My take on this is that most of the christians who say this are partially deluding themselves. I believe that most christians' example of "considering all the viewpoints" is having a few doubts, looking at one or two other religions, reading a few pieces of the bible and asking their pastor for answers until they get enough worthless answers to satisfy themselves that they've thought a bit about it and can be "born again" without guilt. 


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Quote: My take on this is

Quote:
My take on this is that most of the christians who say this are partially deluding themselves. I believe that most christians' example of "considering all the viewpoints" is having a few doubts, looking at one or two other religions, reading a few pieces of the bible and asking their pastor for answers until they get enough worthless answers to satisfy themselves that they've thought a bit about it and can be "born again" without guilt.

Exactly!

Moreover, many people who say they've read the entire bible mean that they've read through a Christian bible course, complete with explanations for all the inconsistencies, excuses for the contradictions, and pat answers for all the questions raised.

I "read the bible" many times.  It wasn't until I really read it -- just started at the beginning and went to the end, without anyone telling me how to interpret it, that I became an atheist.

Actually, that's not entirely true... I became a non-Christian after reading the bible.  It was a while before I became a full-fledged atheist.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Oo. bible wrote: Romans

Oo.

bible wrote:
Romans 2:1-4 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

I love this. Mostly because I have never EVER EVER EVER met a christian who followed it. Good to have a chapter number to go with the statement that none of them are capable of following.

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Vastet wrote: I love this.

Vastet wrote:
I love this. Mostly because I have never EVER EVER EVER met a christian who followed it. Good to have a chapter number to go with the statement that none of them are capable of following.

And you know..they NEVER will because it's not easy to live in the example of Jesus...

Romans 6: 15-18 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

 I will not pretend to be perfect and I also judge but because I live my life as a follower of Jesus I understand when I do judge what occurs because of it and when I understand it I stop myself from continuing that action.  Of course it's not 100% because sometimes you let it get the better of you but something like that God Hates Fags thing or Christians who go around insulting those who don't believe or the denial of basic human rights to anyone is NOT following Jesus' example....

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote: And you

razorphreak wrote:
And you know..they NEVER will because it's not easy to live in the example of Jesus...

Bullshit. It's extremely easy to go around all your life without judging people. You simply refuse to. Every christian does. Every christian better hope they're wrong, or they'll be going straight to hell.

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Vastet wrote: It's

Vastet wrote:
It's extremely easy to go around all your life without judging people. You simply refuse to. Every christian does. Every christian better hope they're wrong, or they'll be going straight to hell.

I don't refuse to...and it's not that simple.  You really think that's possible I'd like to see you not call a person you've never met as "delusional" or not make any assumption about a person you are working with.  Frankly I'm surprised you'd actually say this considering you should know how difficult it is to NOT judge anyone...it's a matter of not acting on your judgments and that is where a Christian would act differently...

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote: I don't

razorphreak wrote:
I don't refuse to...and it's not that simple.

Yes it is. You simply keep your mouth shut when you feel like saying something judgemental about someone. What's so hard about that?

razorphreak wrote:
  You really think that's possible I'd like to see you not call a person you've never met as "delusional" or not make any assumption about a person you are working with.

I never claimed to not judge people. I don't have a religion telling me not to. You do however, so you don't have the same foundation I do.

razorphreak wrote:
  Frankly I'm surprised you'd actually say this considering you should know how difficult it is to NOT judge anyone...it's a matter of not acting on your judgments and that is where a Christian would act differently...

I've never met a christian who doesn't act on their judgements either, so you're all still screwed.

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Vastet wrote: I've never

Vastet wrote:
I've never met a christian who doesn't act on their judgements either, so you're all still screwed.

Christians are not screwed by making judgements; the faith in Jesus ensures this.  Many Christians however are not as involved as they should be with understanding what the bible says and forgetting what they do know.  As I said...nobody's perfect...

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote: Vastet

razorphreak wrote:

Vastet wrote:
I've never met a christian who doesn't act on their judgements either, so you're all still screwed.

Christians are not screwed by making judgements; the faith in Jesus ensures this.

Simply evidence of your gods immorality. Commit any crime you want, just say sorry and you're off the hook.

razorphreak wrote:
  Many Christians however are not as involved as they should be with understanding what the bible says and forgetting what they do know.  As I said...nobody's perfect...

Noone said anyone was. It doesn't take perfection to follow your own beliefs. It takes courage. Which no christian has.

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Vastet wrote: Simply

Vastet wrote:
Simply evidence of your gods immorality. Commit any crime you want, just say sorry and you're off the hook.

It's a little more than that.  You can't go out and rape children like sapient gave examples of and then turn to God saying "oops".  A true believer would have understood not to do it to begin with.  Of course, only God knows the heart of the person and if he/she is truly repentant so then again, who are we to judge? 

Vastet wrote:
Noone said anyone was. It doesn't take perfection to follow your own beliefs. It takes courage. Which no christian has.

I know my beliefs and I'd venture to say that there are many Christians who know their beliefs as well.  What gets more attention however (especially by those looking to chasitize) are the one's that follow something else...which brings us back to this thread's subject... 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote: Vastet

razorphreak wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Simply evidence of your gods immorality. Commit any crime you want, just say sorry and you're off the hook.

It's a little more than that.  You can't go out and rape children like sapient gave examples of and then turn to God saying "oops".  A true believer would have understood not to do it to begin with.  Of course, only God knows the heart of the person and if he/she is truly repentant so then again, who are we to judge? 

So belief in god isn't enough. You have to follow god as well. And since no christian follows god, all christians are screwed.

razorphreak wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Noone said anyone was. It doesn't take perfection to follow your own beliefs. It takes courage. Which no christian has.

I know my beliefs and I'd venture to say that there are many Christians who know their beliefs as well.  What gets more attention however (especially by those looking to chasitize) are the one's that follow something else...which brings us back to this thread's subject... 

I'm sure you do know your beliefs. That doesn't mean you're following them however. If you judge people, you aren't. You're ignoring your own gods commands. And you expect salvation?

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Every word in the bible is
  • Every word in the bible is true - even though they never read it.

  • Jesus loves you.

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Another mythJesus was

Another myth

Jesus was nailed to a square shaped beam stuck into the ground with a cross beam for his arms. The horizontal cross beam was inlaid to the vertical beam by a halve joint.
Picture

From several artists renditions the "cross" looks to be about 20' high; so I guess there is  another 5' buried.

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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Vastet wrote: So belief in

Vastet wrote:
So belief in god isn't enough. You have to follow god as well. And since no christian follows god, all christians are screwed.

 You misunderstood.  God knows that every single person will fall to sin.  It is not that which condemns but what you do when you have fallen and how you approach God being repentful...

 

Vastet wrote:
I'm sure you do know your beliefs. That doesn't mean you're following them however. If you judge people, you aren't. You're ignoring your own gods commands. And you expect salvation?

And how would you know that I don't follow them?  The reason I expect salvation is not because it's for the taking but because I know that first I am not worthy of it and because I have accepted Jesus' calling.  Now of course you won't believe me on that but then, I don't expect you to either... 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote: Vastet

razorphreak wrote:

Vastet wrote:
So belief in god isn't enough. You have to follow god as well. And since no christian follows god, all christians are screwed.

 You misunderstood.  God knows that every single person will fall to sin.  It is not that which condemns but what you do when you have fallen and how you approach God being repentful...

So we don't have a choice, and it's gods fault that we're sinful. Not ours. Which means jesus died for nothing. Which means we should find a better god to believe in. One that doesn't corrupt us then expect us to surpass that corruption.

razorphreak wrote:

 

Vastet wrote:
I'm sure you do know your beliefs. That doesn't mean you're following them however. If you judge people, you aren't. You're ignoring your own gods commands. And you expect salvation?

And how would you know that I don't follow them?

Are you saying you do follow them? You believe the world is flat? That Sol and the universe revolve around the Earth? You don't judge other people? You don't break the commandments? Ever?

razorphreak wrote:
  The reason I expect salvation is not because it's for the taking but because I know that first I am not worthy of it and because I have accepted Jesus' calling.

If you aren't worthy of it how can you expect to achieve it? And what reasoning do you have to suggest that anyone else won't achieve it when they're as unworthy of it as you are? Wouldn't a just god judge people on their merits instead of their beliefs?

razorphreak wrote:
  Now of course you won't believe me on that but then, I don't expect you to either... 

That's good.

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Vastet wrote: So we don't

Vastet wrote:
So we don't have a choice, and it's gods fault that we're sinful. Not ours. Which means jesus died for nothing. Which means we should find a better god to believe in. One that doesn't corrupt us then expect us to surpass that corruption.

How did you come up with that one?  It's our fault that we are sinful, not Gods.  Because of this and because God knows that it's basically impossible for us to redeem ourselves and THAT's the purpose of Jesus coming.

Vastet wrote:
Are you saying you do follow them? You believe the world is flat? That Sol and the universe revolve around the Earth? You don't judge other people? You don't break the commandments? Ever?

I'm saying that I do follow my beliefs and considering that because I am Christian I believe in two commandments - love God and love my neighbor as myself - and because I believe in Jesus being the savior to our sins, things change...

Vastet wrote:
If you aren't worthy of it how can you expect to achieve it? And what reasoning do you have to suggest that anyone else won't achieve it when they're as unworthy of it as you are? Wouldn't a just god judge people on their merits instead of their beliefs?

The same way that Abraham believed without proof, the same way that Noah did what he was told, and the same way that we follow the writtings about Jesus is the same way that I know while I am not worthy the fact that I believe is what will save me God willing.  God being just is not relative to our understanding of what just is all about since we obviously can't say that our methods of applying justice are perfect. 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote:    

razorphreak wrote:
 

  It's our fault that we are sinful, not Gods.  Because of this and because God knows that it's basically impossible for us to redeem ourselves and THAT's the purpose of Jesus coming.

 

Your god couldn’t have created us without sin??? Sounds like a weak god to me.

 My 4-year-old daughter colored a picture of our family, and she gave me blue hair (I have brown hair in real life). Is it the pictures fault that it has blue hair, or my daughter’s fault for creating it that way?  To truly believe that an omniscient deity would judge its own creation is just ridiculous

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If god wouldn't have created

Here's one: If god wouldn't have created us with free will, we could not CHOOSE Him!


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Truatheist wrote: Your god

Truatheist wrote:
Your god couldn’t have created us without sin??? Sounds like a weak god to me. My 4-year-old daughter colored a picture of our family, and she gave me blue hair (I have brown hair in real life). Is it the pictures fault that it has blue hair, or my daughter’s fault for creating it that way? To truly believe that an omniscient deity would judge its own creation is just ridiculous

Tell me did you judge your daughter for coloring the wrong color hair on you?  Will you judge her for the guys she will eventually date?  God created us without sin but we chose something else.  Because we then chose to attempt to understand good and evil on our own, just as your daughter will choose a mate, a school, to smoke or not, as our creator he has just as much of a right to judge us as you do your daughter's decisions...and if you say you won't then what kind of parent would you be if you didn't? 

Truatheist wrote:
Here's one: If god wouldn't have created us with free will, we could not CHOOSE Him!

Who says there is free will of the spirit?  We have full control if we choose to eat a hamburger at McDonalds or Burger King but to choose God is not our choice; it is the gift that God gives so we can then seek him.  That gift is called faith and the faith and it is not something we choose... 

 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak

razorphreak wrote:

Truatheist wrote:
Your god couldn’t have created us without sin??? Sounds like a weak god to me. My 4-year-old daughter colored a picture of our family, and she gave me blue hair (I have brown hair in real life). Is it the pictures fault that it has blue hair, or my daughter’s fault for creating it that way? To truly believe that an omniscient deity would judge its own creation is just ridiculous

Tell me did you judge your daughter for coloring the wrong color hair on you? Will you judge her for the guys she will eventually date? God created us without sin but we chose something else. Because we then chose to attempt to understand good and evil on our own, just as your daughter will choose a mate, a school, to smoke or not, as our creator he has just as much of a right to judge us as you do your daughter's decisions...and if you say you won't then what kind of parent would you be if you didn't?

Truatheist wrote:
Here's one: If god wouldn't have created us with free will, we could not CHOOSE Him!

Who says there is free will of the spirit? We have full control if we choose to eat a hamburger at McDonalds or Burger King but to choose God is not our choice; it is the gift that God gives so we can then seek him. That gift is called faith and the faith and it is not something we choose...

 

 

I am not omniscient therefore, your analogy fails. I could not judge my daughter for dating drunk, unemployed men if I created her that way.

Please elaborate on how humans cannot choose faith.  

Reason, Observation, and Experience -- the Holy Trinity of Science.
Robert G. Ingersoll


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razorphreak wrote: Vastet

razorphreak wrote:
Vastet wrote:
So we don't have a choice, and it's gods fault that we're sinful. Not ours. Which means jesus died for nothing. Which means we should find a better god to believe in. One that doesn't corrupt us then expect us to surpass that corruption.
How did you come up with that one?

A better question is how do you miss it? It's a logical conclusion.

razorphreak wrote:
  It's our fault that we are sinful, not Gods.

No, it's gods fault. He made us incapable of not sinning, in your own words. Despite your attempts to suggest the impossible, that something was inheritted.

razorphreak wrote:
  Because of this and because God knows that it's basically impossible for us to redeem ourselves and THAT's the purpose of Jesus coming.

What's the point in killing someone when you could have just made things better in the first place? There's no logic in it. You're creating an entire wall of fiction to support a fictional idea. You're weaving a web of lies. Eventually you'll get caught in it.

razorphreak wrote:
Vastet wrote:
Are you saying you do follow them? You believe the world is flat? That Sol and the universe revolve around the Earth? You don't judge other people? You don't break the commandments? Ever?

I'm saying that I do follow my beliefs and considering that because I am Christian I believe in two commandments - love God and love my neighbor as myself - and because I believe in Jesus being the savior to our sins, things change...

So you don't follow your gods commands, and you will burn in hell like every other heathen. As I suspected.

razorphreak wrote:
Vastet wrote:
If you aren't worthy of it how can you expect to achieve it? And what reasoning do you have to suggest that anyone else won't achieve it when they're as unworthy of it as you are? Wouldn't a just god judge people on their merits instead of their beliefs?

The same way that Abraham believed without proof, the same way that Noah did what he was told, and the same way that we follow the writtings about Jesus is the same way that I know while I am not worthy the fact that I believe is what will save me God willing.

Noah is complete fiction. Even more so than jesus, since there's inarguable evidence against the possibility that there was ever a global flood. You're using fictional characters to support a fictional idea. Perfect example of circular reasoning.

razorphreak wrote:
God being just is not relative to our understanding of what just is all about since we obviously can't say that our methods of applying justice are perfect.

Justice is a term with a definition that your religion has no authority to change.

jus·tice [juhs-tis]
noun 1. the quality of being just; righteousness, equitableness, or moral rightness: to uphold the justice of a cause.
2. rightfulness or lawfulness, as of a claim or title; justness of ground or reason: to complain with justice.
3. the moral principle determining just conduct.
4. conformity to this principle, as manifested in conduct; just conduct, dealing, or treatment.
5. the administering of deserved punishment or reward.
6. the maintenance or administration of what is just by law, as by judicial or other proceedings: a court of justice.
7. judgment of persons or causes by judicial process: to administer justice in a community.
8. a judicial officer; a judge or magistrate.
9. (initial capital letter) Also called Justice Department. the Department of Justice.
—Idioms10. bring to justice, to cause to come before a court for trial or to receive punishment for one's misdeeds: The murderer was brought to justice.
11. do justice, a. to act or treat justly or fairly.
b. to appreciate properly: We must see this play again to do it justice.
c. to acquit in accordance with one's abilities or potentialities: He finally got a role in which he could do himself justice as an actor.

Your god is not just. By definition.

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razorphreak is providing

razorphreak is providing numerous textbook examples for this thread. 

 


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Truatheist wrote: I am not

Truatheist wrote:
I am not omniscient therefore, your analogy fails. I could not judge my daughter for dating drunk, unemployed men if I created her that way.

I wasn't talking about being omniscient, I was talking about the same analogy of being a parent to your daughter as God is to us as the creator.  Funny, I thought you would have been able to pick up on that... 

Truatheist wrote:
Please elaborate on how humans cannot choose faith.

Romans 9: 16, 19-21 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy...One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

The gift of believing is not something that any person can simply say "OK, I believe."  It's not anyone's choice to believe...

Ephesians 2: 8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast

There is no free will when it comes to the gift of the spirit.  Some have used the following to say that yes we do:

Matthew 7:7-8 Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

But it is with misunderstanding of what the full meaning of the word is, in its entirity, says to how one obtains faith.

John 6: 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him

Matthew 11:27 No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

It is dogma that will let people believe they have any say so in believing in Jesus.  This is why you never hear of any church speaking of the "elect" that is referenced several times in the bible. 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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Vastet wrote: No, it's gods

Vastet wrote:
No, it's gods fault. He made us incapable of not sinning, in your own words. Despite your attempts to suggest the impossible, that something was inheritted.

I'm actually quite curious how you've managed to deduct such odd assumptions by things I never said?

Vastet wrote:
Noah is complete fiction. Even more so than jesus, since there's inarguable evidence against the possibility that there was ever a global flood. You're using fictional characters to support a fictional idea. Perfect example of circular reasoning.

But we aren't discussing the validity in your mind of the bible but rather what the bible says.  Don't change the subject now...

Vastet wrote:
Justice is a term with a definition that your religion has no authority to change.

jus·tice [juhs-tis] noun 1. the quality of being just; righteousness, equitableness, or moral rightness: to uphold the justice of a cause.

...Your god is not just. By definition.

I had a feeling you'd go searching for the definition but notice what I wrote: "God being just is not relative to our understanding of what just is all about." As it stands, you gave the definition of what God IS; righteous and moral.  I just want to repeat, we are not disucssing if you believe it to be true, only what is written.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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Your analogy fails because I

Your analogy fails because I am not omniscient. I did not create my daughter's personality or the parameters in which she lives.  Your bible verses solidify the point that god is responsible for its creation. Thanks for your contribution to this thread.

Reason, Observation, and Experience -- the Holy Trinity of Science.
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Truatheist wrote: Your

Truatheist wrote:
Your analogy fails because I am not omniscient. I did not create my daughter's personality or the parameters in which she lives. Your bible verses solidify the point that god is responsible for its creation. Thanks for your contribution to this thread.

But I am not comparing you to an omniscientific being, just a creator.  To say you are not responsible for your daughter's personality or paramaters in which she lives is completely wrong - the first 5 years of her life are the one's which she is most impressionable so she looks to you on how to act and how she lives will be directly responsible to your influence to her moral standards.  This is exactly the analogy to which God gives us his word and his law and his example (Jesus) exactly how you do for your daughter.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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Did people forget the point

Did people forget the point of this thread. Debate theists in another thread. Post theist myths in this one.


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AModestProposal wrote: Did

AModestProposal wrote:
Did people forget the point of this thread. Debate theists in another thread. Post theist myths in this one.

This is in the Atheist vs. Theist section.


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razorphreak

razorphreak wrote:

Truatheist wrote:
Your analogy fails because I am not omniscient. I did not create my daughter's personality or the parameters in which she lives. Your bible verses solidify the point that god is responsible for its creation. Thanks for your contribution to this thread.

But I am not comparing you to an omniscientific being, just a creator. To say you are not responsible for your daughter's personality or paramaters in which she lives is completely wrong - the first 5 years of her life are the one's which she is most impressionable so she looks to you on how to act and how she lives will be directly responsible to your influence to her moral standards. This is exactly the analogy to which God gives us his word and his law and his example (Jesus) exactly how you do for your daughter.

 

You are comparing me to the Judeo-Christian god. This god is said to be omniscient, while I am not. Although I may be responsible for certain aspects of my daughters personality, I am certainly not responsible for each and every one of her biological influences.

So in other words, I must pretend for a second that your god is not all knowing, to comprehend the analogy you put forth? Why do you keep avoiding the fact that your god is all knowing, while I am not. Your failure to address this shows the desperation of your illogical position.

Reason, Observation, and Experience -- the Holy Trinity of Science.
Robert G. Ingersoll


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Truatheist wrote: You are

Truatheist wrote:
You are comparing me to the Judeo-Christian god. This god is said to be omniscient, while I am not. Although I may be responsible for certain aspects of my daughters personality, I am certainly not responsible for each and every one of her biological influences.

So in other words, I must pretend for a second that your god is not all knowing, to comprehend the analogy you put forth? Why do you keep avoiding the fact that your god is all knowing, while I am not. Your failure to address this shows the desperation of your illogical position.

Actually you are making it to where I'm comparing you to God and an omniscient being.  I keep trying to tell you I'm not, that I'm comparing you "creator" vs. "creator".  This has nothing to do with all knowing or not.  I'm hoping you'll get it but it doesn't seem you want to put down your analytical position and turn it down a notch to understand what I'm talking about.  Don't make a mountain out of a mole hill please...

Ironically you almost did when you said you are responsible for various aspects of your daughter's development but not all.   This is the same with God and us where while he might know what's going to happen (like you know eventually your daughter will be exposed to boys or smoking or drugs) but the choices she makes are the same as to the choices we must make in relation to what can only be called morals that God has instilled.  As written, those who do not know God have a "natural law" written on their hearts (conscious perhaps?) and you still know someone by their actions:

Romans 2:14-15 Indeed, when Gentiles (aka atheists), who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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One of my favorites is from

One of my favorites is from Ted Haggard while being interviewed by Richard Dawkins in "The Root of All Evil?":

"The evidence I can present is that we've got a book, written over fifteen hundred years, by fourty different authors one one subject and it does not contradict itself."

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca


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Romans 2:14-15 Indeed, when

Romans 2:14-15 Indeed, when Gentiles (aka atheists), who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.

As someone who has studied the neuroscience and sociology of morality for a long time I would certianly hope you do not genuinely believe that! 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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