religouse cow poop!!!

Reddragon
Posts: 54
Joined: 2006-06-27
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

Ok I'm joking. I'm a Christian. I posted this on myspace and decided to come here and post. It's a logical explanation of how God can exist.

Let me back away from religion a bit.

Who says God can't be some super evolved alien? Even more, because of His great intellect we may even be some super program where the data objects(us) have a type of self awareness. Of course our awareness would be limited to the virtual environment in which we exist. And because of specific programming there's no way we can realize that we are nothing more than a program.

I'm sure you saw the matrix... That movie dealt with the fact that our senses can't totally be trusted. The idea that we see what we see because our minds tell us that that's what we see. It's the same with sound, touch, taste. So is this world real??? Yes. I see it, I hear things around me. I interact with it. But in what state does this world exist? It could be no more than a virtual environment created by a super intellectual being who calls Himself God. And to us He truly would be God since, as the programmer/designer He would have total control. Why can't we see Him? Because He exists in a world outside of our own.

Ok there's my two cents... BTW I'm new here.

If I tell people the Gospel, it's not because I care about whether or not they go to heaven or hell. I do it because I honestly believe that this is God's will and purpose for my life... weeeeeeeee!!!


floatingegg
Posts: 73
Joined: 2006-06-01
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

Could you please clarify the point for us?


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7525
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
Re: religouse cow poop!!!

My exact response to you on myspace for the benefit of the community:

Reddragon wrote:
Who says God can't be some super evolved alien?

Not us.

Quote:
So is this world real??? Yes. I see it, I hear things around me.

Funny you ask that question. I usually joke, but seriously, that I am more sure that the Christian god doesn't exist, than I'm sure that I do exist.

Quote:
But in what state does this world exist? It could be no more than a virtual environment created by a super intellectual being who calls Himself God.

Yup. But who created him?

Now, that letter was nice, however please keep in mind that believing in the god you just created is irrational until proper evidence for his existence comes into play. Until then the only rational position is lacking belief in that god until further proof presents itself.

Welcome to the forum, congrats for having some of the courage your fellow theists rarely have. Hope you enjoy your stay here and you're not too offended by how blunt we might put anything.

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7525
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

floatingegg wrote:
Could you please clarify the point for us?

Just for kicks I'll take a guess... keep in mind this is only a guess of the emergency broadcasting system.

We are atheists, we know for sure that god doesn't exist. How could we know for sure that God doesn't exist, maybe God is an alien. Am I close at all Reddragon?

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


floatingegg
Posts: 73
Joined: 2006-06-01
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

Finish this sentence: "If God is unknowable..."


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7525
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

floatingegg wrote:
Finish this sentence: "If God is unknowable..."

then we can't know him and thusly can't logically believe he exists.

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


Reddragon
Posts: 54
Joined: 2006-06-27
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

floatingegg wrote:
Could you please clarify the point for us?

I'll try. We Christians, and others, claim that a supreme being we call God created everything that we know of. We say that He has total control over this creation. We also say that He isn't bound by the physical laws of this creation.

I think that the programmer/virtual world explanation shows how this is logicaly possible.

This isn't to argue that God does exist. It's only to argue the possibility that He exists.

If I tell people the Gospel, it's not because I care about whether or not they go to heaven or hell. I do it because I honestly believe that this is God's will and purpose for my life... weeeeeeeee!!!


Reddragon
Posts: 54
Joined: 2006-06-27
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

floatingegg wrote:
Finish this sentence: "If God is unknowable..."

I don't believe that God is unknowable.

If I tell people the Gospel, it's not because I care about whether or not they go to heaven or hell. I do it because I honestly believe that this is God's will and purpose for my life... weeeeeeeee!!!


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7525
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

Reddragon wrote:
floatingegg wrote:
Could you please clarify the point for us?

I'll try. We Christians, and others, claim that a supreme being we call God created everything that we know of. We say that He has total control over this creation. We also say that He isn't bound by the physical laws of this creation.

So what you're saying is there's no logical reason to believe what you believe.

Quote:
I think that the programmer/virtual world explanation shows how this is logicaly possible.

It shows how it's logically possible, but it doesn't show how belief in it is logical. It shows that you can believe in it, that is true, but it doesn't show that such belief is founded in reason or reality.

Quote:
This isn't to argue that God does exist.

Yeah it is, just keep it real. No reason to try to pull the wool over our eyes.

Quote:
It's only to argue the possibility that He exists.

And (I think) everyone on this forum would agree, including all members of the Rational Response Squad (I'm sure). We also think there is a possiblity that Elephant toads with poisonous darts that shoot of their head exist, and there is a possibility that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is actually angry at the dwindling Pirate population worldwide. We are open to all these possibilities yet we abstain from positive belief in them until given a valid reason to. You have yet to do that.

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


floatingegg
Posts: 73
Joined: 2006-06-01
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

Do you have good reasons for preferring the possibility that God does exist over the possibility that God does not exist?


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7525
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

Sapient wrote:
floatingegg wrote:
Could you please clarify the point for us?

Just for kicks I'll take a guess... keep in mind this is only a guess of the emergency broadcasting system.

We are atheists, we know for sure that god doesn't exist. How could we know for sure that God doesn't exist, maybe God is an alien. Am I close at all Reddragon?

So with that whole "possibility he exists" argument, can you address my above guess and question? Was I close?

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


peppermint
Superfan
peppermint's picture
Posts: 539
Joined: 2006-08-14
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

For there to be an "all knowing great being" being dazzles my mind. For starters, what is that being made of? Where did it come from, itself? Why would it care about our every move, tick and thought?

If such a being truly existed, wouldn't it be so incredibly intelligent and "all knowing" that it would not in fact be prone to such primitive emotions and concepts of morality as we are? Therefore, it would understand that watching us obsessively like a perverted stalker would not in fact matter or even make the smallest difference in the overall structure of our world.

We are simply a small fragment of the universe. Not to say we're unimportant, but I believe there are other organisms out there. It's true, it is possible just as flying pink invisible unicorns are, but not only is it irrational to believe in a God, it is also such a close-minded way of thinking. To believe that a "god" or an "all knowing being" watching us completely clashes with the facts of the universe. There are so many other logical theories based on more valid evidence and scientific principles.

Of course, I'm one of those people that thinks in the great scheme of existence, there is no good or evil, so I boggle my mind to no end with these questions. I hope I make SOME sense here.

*Our world is far more complex than the rigid structure we want to assign to it, and we will probably never fully understand it.*

"Those believers who are sophisticated enough to understand the paradox have found exciting ways to bend logic into pretzel shapes in order to defend the indefensible." - Hamby


LeftofLarry
RRS local affiliateScientist
LeftofLarry's picture
Posts: 1199
Joined: 2006-02-12
User is offlineOffline
Re: religouse cow poop!!!

Reddragon wrote:
Ok I'm joking. I'm a Christian. I posted this on myspace and decided to come here and post. It's a logical explanation of how God can exist.

Let me back away from religion a bit.

Who says God can't be some super evolved alien? Even more, because of His great intellect we may even be some super program where the data objects(us) have a type of self awareness. Of course our awareness would be limited to the virtual environment in which we exist. And because of specific programming there's no way we can realize that we are nothing more than a program.

I'm sure you saw the matrix... That movie dealt with the fact that our senses can't totally be trusted. The idea that we see what we see because our minds tell us that that's what we see. It's the same with sound, touch, taste. So is this world real??? Yes. I see it, I hear things around me. I interact with it. But in what state does this world exist? It could be no more than a virtual environment created by a super intellectual being who calls Himself God. And to us He truly would be God since, as the programmer/designer He would have total control. Why can't we see Him? Because He exists in a world outside of our own.

Ok there's my two cents... BTW I'm new here.

But..then..if we were in a "program" so to speak, then obviously it's a lowsy program which would allow us to see discuss our own identity. In other words, if we were in a world created for us wiht limited amounts of reason that is solely functional within our reality, then, how could we be even discussing this? That "program" or reality that then this said god created, is not nearly as perfect as you would think. And if not perfect...then why even bother being part of it?

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server which houses Celebrity Atheists.


LeftofLarry
RRS local affiliateScientist
LeftofLarry's picture
Posts: 1199
Joined: 2006-02-12
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

and...I think I just gave myself a headache.... Laughing out loud :smt030


Reddragon
Posts: 54
Joined: 2006-06-27
User is offlineOffline
Re: religouse cow poop!!!

Hey Sapient. I remember you from one of the atheist groups on myspace. We had the same avatar for a while. People thought I was you promoting religion until they saw the name... LoL

Sapient wrote:

Quote:
So is this world real??? Yes. I see it, I hear things around me.

Funny you ask that question. I usually joke, but seriously, that I am more sure that the Christian god doesn't exist, than I'm sure that I do exist.

You exist, but are you real? How do you know that you are real beyond some virtual world? I think that's the point I was trying to make.

Quote:

Quote:
But in what state does this world exist? It could be no more than a virtual environment created by a super intellectual being who calls Himself God.

Yup. But who created him?

Ahhhh, the argument of first causes. I'm usualy satisfied with saying that God is the first cause, but atheists arn't happy with that. In keeping with my thing above I would only say that God is the first cause of this reality in which we exist. Who created God or what caused God to exist? I have no idea.

Actualy it doesn't make since, IMHO, for there to be a first cause. Perhaps we and God are apart of a circle of causes. If you want to draw a line that has no beginning and no end you draw a circle. Also God says that He is the beginning and the end(alpha and omega). How can you be both the beginning and the end unless you're a point on a circle? What if time its self goes in a circle? Perhaps the universe is realy a spere and everything that's expanding will eventualy come together again on the other side, to be compressed and prepared for a new big bang. Maybe God knows the future because it's happend already, a million times over... Ok, I'm going overboard but you get the picture.

Quote:

Now, that letter was nice, however please keep in mind that believing in the god you just created is irrational until proper evidence for his existence comes into play. Until then the only rational position is lacking belief in that god until further proof presents itself.

Above you give only two options. Belief and disbelief. But there's a third. It should be belief, unsure, disbelief. I think that before someone can say God doesn't exist, he must have proof that He can't possibly exist. And before someone can say that God does exist he must have proof that He does exist. If you can't proove that it's impossible for Him to exist nore can you proove that He does exist then it only makes since to be an agnostic and say that you're unsure. Ok, let me catch my breath. I hope that makes since. That's my opinion. I'm not saying you're wrong for disbelieving.

Quote:

Welcome to the forum, congrats for having some of the courage your fellow theists rarely have. Hope you enjoy your stay here and you're not too offended by how blunt we might put anything.

Hey thanks. I spent all afternoon replying to this since I'm at work and have to keep leaving my desk. LoL

If I tell people the Gospel, it's not because I care about whether or not they go to heaven or hell. I do it because I honestly believe that this is God's will and purpose for my life... weeeeeeeee!!!


Reddragon
Posts: 54
Joined: 2006-06-27
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

Sapient wrote:
floatingegg wrote:
Could you please clarify the point for us?

Just for kicks I'll take a guess... keep in mind this is only a guess of the emergency broadcasting system.

We are atheists, we know for sure that god doesn't exist. How could we know for sure that God doesn't exist, maybe God is an alien. Am I close at all Reddragon?

To me, and alien is a being that isn't from this planet. That would make God, angles, and demons all aliens. I use the word alien because it isn't as mystical as the word God. What is a god in the first place? I wanted to use a word that didn't cary all the extra baggage that comes with the word god. If I design and program a virtual world, I'm god in that world as I have total control(ultimate power) in that world. But I'm not god of the world in which I exist. Could it be the same with God? At this point it doesn't make since to say god when we say He is God of this world but have no clue weather or not He's god of His own world.

Ummmm.... I'm not sure you got my point, but I hope I made it clear in other posts.

If I tell people the Gospel, it's not because I care about whether or not they go to heaven or hell. I do it because I honestly believe that this is God's will and purpose for my life... weeeeeeeee!!!


Reddragon
Posts: 54
Joined: 2006-06-27
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

Sapient wrote:
Reddragon wrote:
floatingegg wrote:
Could you please clarify the point for us?

I'll try. We Christians, and others, claim that a supreme being we call God created everything that we know of. We say that He has total control over this creation. We also say that He isn't bound by the physical laws of this creation.

So what you're saying is there's no logical reason to believe what you believe.

Quote:
I think that the programmer/virtual world explanation shows how this is logicaly possible.

It shows how it's logically possible, but it doesn't show how belief in it is logical. It shows that you can believe in it, that is true, but it doesn't show that such belief is founded in reason or reality.

Quote:
This isn't to argue that God does exist.

Yeah it is, just keep it real. No reason to try to pull the wool over our eyes.

Quote:
It's only to argue the possibility that He exists.

And (I think) everyone on this forum would agree, including all members of the Rational Response Squad (I'm sure). We also think there is a possiblity that Elephant toads with poisonous darts that shoot of their head exist, and there is a possibility that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is actually angry at the dwindling Pirate population worldwide. We are open to all these possibilities yet we abstain from positive belief in them until given a valid reason to. You have yet to do that.

I'm only giving the posibility at this point.

LoL @ the elephant toads and all of that. The difference between fairy tales and God are that fairy tales are twisted versions of things that already exist. God isn't.

If I tell people the Gospel, it's not because I care about whether or not they go to heaven or hell. I do it because I honestly believe that this is God's will and purpose for my life... weeeeeeeee!!!


Reddragon
Posts: 54
Joined: 2006-06-27
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

floatingegg wrote:
Do you have good reasons for preferring the possibility that God does exist over the possibility that God does not exist?

I prefer the possibility that God does exist because of personal experiences with God weather during prayer, praise and worship, or even in church. I've even had experiences with the super natural, and how spirits respond to prayer since childhood.

If I tell people the Gospel, it's not because I care about whether or not they go to heaven or hell. I do it because I honestly believe that this is God's will and purpose for my life... weeeeeeeee!!!


Reddragon
Posts: 54
Joined: 2006-06-27
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

peppermint wrote:
For there to be an "all knowing great being" being dazzles my mind. For starters, what is that being made of? Where did it come from, itself? Why would it care about our every move, tick and thought?

If such a being truly existed, wouldn't it be so incredibly intelligent and "all knowing" that it would not in fact be prone to such primitive emotions and concepts of morality as we are? Therefore, it would understand that watching us obsessively like a perverted stalker would not in fact matter or even make the smallest difference in the overall structure of our world.

We are simply a small fragment of the universe. Not to say we're unimportant, but I believe there are other organisms out there. It's true, it is possible just as flying pink invisible unicorns are, but not only is it irrational to believe in a God, it is also such a close-minded way of thinking. To believe that a "god" or an "all knowing being" watching us completely clashes with the facts of the universe. There are so many other logical theories based on more valid evidence and scientific principles.

Of course, I'm one of those people that thinks in the great scheme of existence, there is no good or evil, so I boggle my mind to no end with these questions. I hope I make SOME sense here.

You make sense. On morals I don't think emotions and morals are primitive. We are more intelectual than any other creature on this planet, yet we are more likely to be enfluenced by emotions and moral obligations than any lesser animal.

Morals are rules that deal with how people treat eachother. If God loves me then He wouldn't want you to do me wrong. If he loves you then He wouldn't want me to do you wrong.

I know that there are theories and scientific stuff, but I don't see how they x out God or the posibility that He exists. I'm thinking evolution and big bang here.

Sorry for the short reply, I'm trying to get out of here.

If I tell people the Gospel, it's not because I care about whether or not they go to heaven or hell. I do it because I honestly believe that this is God's will and purpose for my life... weeeeeeeee!!!


Reddragon
Posts: 54
Joined: 2006-06-27
User is offlineOffline
Re: religouse cow poop!!!

LeftofLarry wrote:
Reddragon wrote:
Ok I'm joking. I'm a Christian. I posted this on myspace and decided to come here and post. It's a logical explanation of how God can exist.

Let me back away from religion a bit.

Who says God can't be some super evolved alien? Even more, because of His great intellect we may even be some super program where the data objects(us) have a type of self awareness. Of course our awareness would be limited to the virtual environment in which we exist. And because of specific programming there's no way we can realize that we are nothing more than a program.

I'm sure you saw the matrix... That movie dealt with the fact that our senses can't totally be trusted. The idea that we see what we see because our minds tell us that that's what we see. It's the same with sound, touch, taste. So is this world real??? Yes. I see it, I hear things around me. I interact with it. But in what state does this world exist? It could be no more than a virtual environment created by a super intellectual being who calls Himself God. And to us He truly would be God since, as the programmer/designer He would have total control. Why can't we see Him? Because He exists in a world outside of our own.

Ok there's my two cents... BTW I'm new here.

But..then..if we were in a "program" so to speak, then obviously it's a lowsy program which would allow us to see discuss our own identity.

I don't see how being able to discuss our identity would lessen the value of the program. If anything it makes it more interesting. If human society lasts long enough it would be nice to see how far AI goes.

Quote:

In other words, if we were in a world created for us wiht limited amounts of reason that is solely functional within our reality, then, how could we be even discussing this?

I don't think there are limited amouts of reason. I think there are limited amounts of perception.

Quote:

That "program" or reality that then this said god created, is not nearly as perfect as you would think. And if not perfect...then why even bother being part of it?

Would you have any chioce??? And what is this need for perfection? What is perfection anyways? I think we all would have different views on what it is. To me perfection is the best posible. Where's webster when you need him? LoL

If I tell people the Gospel, it's not because I care about whether or not they go to heaven or hell. I do it because I honestly believe that this is God's will and purpose for my life... weeeeeeeee!!!


Reddragon
Posts: 54
Joined: 2006-06-27
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

peppermint wrote:

Of course, I'm one of those people that thinks in the great scheme of existence, there is no good or evil, so I boggle my mind to no end with these questions. I hope I make SOME sense here.

I forgot to say... I don't believe in the existence of good or evil either. At least not without God. To me God is the standard for what is good and what is bad. Therefore no matter what God does, God is good.

If I tell people the Gospel, it's not because I care about whether or not they go to heaven or hell. I do it because I honestly believe that this is God's will and purpose for my life... weeeeeeeee!!!


Reddragon
Posts: 54
Joined: 2006-06-27
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

Reddragon wrote:
floatingegg wrote:
Do you have good reasons for preferring the possibility that God does exist over the possibility that God does not exist?

I prefer the possibility that God does exist because of personal experiences with God weather during prayer, praise and worship, or even in church. I've even had experiences with the super natural, and how spirits respond to prayer since childhood.

I said that wrong... it should be:

I believe God exists because of personal experiences with God weather during prayer, praise and worship, or even in church. I've even had experiences with the super natural since childhood. Also it's interesting how spirits respond to prayer or even the name of Jesus.

If I tell people the Gospel, it's not because I care about whether or not they go to heaven or hell. I do it because I honestly believe that this is God's will and purpose for my life... weeeeeeeee!!!


LeftofLarry
RRS local affiliateScientist
LeftofLarry's picture
Posts: 1199
Joined: 2006-02-12
User is offlineOffline
Re: religouse cow poop!!!

Reddragon wrote:

I don't see how being able to discuss our identity would lessen the value of the program. If anything it makes it more interesting. If human society lasts long enough it would be nice to see how far AI goes.

So then god, put us here to irk his interest? We're some kind of a game, a video game, as you will? for his enjoyment?
That's an interesting analogy, if that is what you mean.

Reddragon wrote:

I don't think there are limited amouts of reason. I think there are limited amounts of perception.

Well reason usually comes from perception, does it not?
It would be hard to reason or logically speak of something that you cannot perceive.

Reddragon wrote:

Would you have any chioce??? And what is this need for perfection? What is perfection anyways? I think we all would have different views on what it is. To me perfection is the best posible. Where's webster when you need him? LoL

Well perfection is defined by most theists as god....so...if god is perfect, then so must all his creations..is it not? Webster...are they perfect? Laughing out loud

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server which houses Celebrity Atheists.


floatingegg
Posts: 73
Joined: 2006-06-01
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

Reddragon wrote:

I believe God exists because of personal experiences with God weather during prayer, praise and worship, or even in church. I've even had experiences with the super natural since childhood. Also it's interesting how spirits respond to prayer or even the name of Jesus.

If you can experience phenomena, how can it be supernatural? The supernatural is by definition outside the realm of experience. Why do you trust your personal experiences?


peppermint
Superfan
peppermint's picture
Posts: 539
Joined: 2006-08-14
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

Reddragon wrote:
peppermint wrote:
For there to be an "all knowing great being" being dazzles my mind. For starters, what is that being made of? Where did it come from, itself? Why would it care about our every move, tick and thought?

If such a being truly existed, wouldn't it be so incredibly intelligent and "all knowing" that it would not in fact be prone to such primitive emotions and concepts of morality as we are? Therefore, it would understand that watching us obsessively like a perverted stalker would not in fact matter or even make the smallest difference in the overall structure of our world.

We are simply a small fragment of the universe. Not to say we're unimportant, but I believe there are other organisms out there. It's true, it is possible just as flying pink invisible unicorns are, but not only is it irrational to believe in a God, it is also such a close-minded way of thinking. To believe that a "god" or an "all knowing being" watching us completely clashes with the facts of the universe. There are so many other logical theories based on more valid evidence and scientific principles.

Of course, I'm one of those people that thinks in the great scheme of existence, there is no good or evil, so I boggle my mind to no end with these questions. I hope I make SOME sense here.

You make sense. On morals I don't think emotions and morals are primitive. We are more intelectual than any other creature on this planet, yet we are more likely to be enfluenced by emotions and moral obligations than any lesser animal.

Morals are rules that deal with how people treat eachother. If God loves me then He wouldn't want you to do me wrong. If he loves you then He wouldn't want me to do you wrong.

I know that there are theories and scientific stuff, but I don't see how they x out God or the posibility that He exists. I'm thinking evolution and big bang here.

Sorry for the short reply, I'm trying to get out of here.

Why do you say that we're the most intellectual beings on the planet? We're animals too. We hunt, kill, hurt each other and experience primitive aspects of pleasure and pain. I hate it frankly when humans assume they're so much better than every other creature on the earth.

Morals are dependable principles derived from emotion, which is primitive. In fact, emotion is perhaps the most primitive drive. It is not simply feeling angry or sad, but evolving to create instincts that help us survive. The reoccuring goal in life is to live and pass on our genes.

I don't understand how this ties into an idea of there being a god. If this so-called god loved us, why would it create a world full of such dynamic possibility? Why wouldn't it simply protect and shelter us?

*Our world is far more complex than the rigid structure we want to assign to it, and we will probably never fully understand it.*

"Those believers who are sophisticated enough to understand the paradox have found exciting ways to bend logic into pretzel shapes in order to defend the indefensible." - Hamby


Reddragon
Posts: 54
Joined: 2006-06-27
User is offlineOffline
Re: religouse cow poop!!!

LeftofLarry wrote:
Reddragon wrote:

I don't see how being able to discuss our identity would lessen the value of the program. If anything it makes it more interesting. If human society lasts long enough it would be nice to see how far AI goes.

So then god, put us here to irk his interest? We're some kind of a game, a video game, as you will? for his enjoyment?
That's an interesting analogy, if that is what you mean.

No, thats not what I mean. I never thought about God's reasons in the analogy. I did think about posible human reasons though. There are god games out now that allow you to rule civilizations. You can answere prayers, or punish at will.

I was thinking that if we don't destroy ourselves first that ai could posibly reach a point to where fake intelligence may rival real intelligence. Think of having a virtual pet with enough intelligence to question it's own existence. It may even question your existence. Now that would be interesting.

Quote:
Reddragon wrote:

I don't think there are limited amouts of reason. I think there are limited amounts of perception.

Well reason usually comes from perception, does it not?
It would be hard to reason or logically speak of something that you cannot perceive.

Yeah but by reasoning we gain thoughts, and ideas. Perception is just a way these thoughts and ideas may be confirmed as true or false. So we may not be limited as far as what we think about. But we are limited when it comes to finding evidence to back up those thoughts.

Quote:

Reddragon wrote:

Would you have any chioce??? And what is this need for perfection? What is perfection anyways? I think we all would have different views on what it is. To me perfection is the best posible. Where's webster when you need him? LoL

Well perfection is defined by most theists as god....so...if god is perfect, then so must all his creations..is it not? Webster...are they perfect? :lol:

If God is perfect and perfect is God, then nothing can be perfect but God. I agree with the theist that God is perfect but I wouldn't define perfection as being God. I think that perfect is a reletive term in that we all have different views on what perfect is and it varies based on what object we're talking about.

If I tell people the Gospel, it's not because I care about whether or not they go to heaven or hell. I do it because I honestly believe that this is God's will and purpose for my life... weeeeeeeee!!!


Reddragon
Posts: 54
Joined: 2006-06-27
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

floatingegg wrote:
Reddragon wrote:

I believe God exists because of personal experiences with God weather during prayer, praise and worship, or even in church. I've even had experiences with the super natural since childhood. Also it's interesting how spirits respond to prayer or even the name of Jesus.

If you can experience phenomena, how can it be supernatural? The supernatural is by definition outside the realm of experience. Why do you trust your personal experiences?

Then it can't be supernatural. By your definition the word is missused by me and most others.

I trust my personal experiences because of repitition. This IMO is how people work. You experience something once then you may question it. But about the tenth time you're pretty sure you can trust it to be true. The sun has been comming up every day since I was born therefore it's safe to asume that it will come up tomarow. This may not be logical but has proven to be trustworthy.

If I tell people the Gospel, it's not because I care about whether or not they go to heaven or hell. I do it because I honestly believe that this is God's will and purpose for my life... weeeeeeeee!!!


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7525
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
Re: religouse cow poop!!!

Reddragon wrote:

You exist, but are you real?

I might be, I might not be. I'm as real as real can be, without being 100% absolutely sure. Once again, the interesting thing is, I am more sure the Christian God isn't real, as I'm sure that I am real.

Quote:
How do you know that you are real beyond some virtual world?

I don't, I never claimed to, and this has nothing to do with verifying that your god is real.

Quote:

Ahhhh, the argument of first causes. I'm usualy satisfied with saying that God is the first cause, but atheists arn't happy with that.

Well duh, any intellectual wouldn't be happy with that, as god himself would've needed someone to cause him, unless he was infinite, in which case it's just as likely that the Universe didn't need a creator as it too could be infinite.

Quote:

Above you give only two options. Belief and disbelief. But there's a third. It should be belief, unsure, disbelief.

Nope. Disbelief encompasses everyone who is unsure. You either have positive belief or are you without that belief. If you are unsure, then you are without positive belief and therefore an atheist. You need to check your definition of disbelief.

From Oxford English Dictionary.

disbelieve: Not to believe or credit (pertinent part of definition)

Quote:
I think that before someone can say God doesn't exist, he must have proof that He can't possibly exist.

I don't claim that he doesn't exist, although non-cognitivists make a compelliung argument as to why he doesn't exist.

Quote:
And before someone can say that God does exist he must have proof that He does exist. If you can't proove that it's impossible for Him to exist nore can you proove that He does exist then it only makes since to be an agnostic and say that you're unsure.

Everyone on the Rational Response Squad is agnostic, in addition to being atheist. You should get educated on these terms as to how they're really defined, not how American Christians have chosen to bastardize the definitions. This paper will help you understand the terms agnostic and atheist much better.

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7525
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

Reddragon wrote:
Sapient wrote:
floatingegg wrote:
Could you please clarify the point for us?

Just for kicks I'll take a guess... keep in mind this is only a guess of the emergency broadcasting system.

We are atheists, we know for sure that god doesn't exist. How could we know for sure that God doesn't exist, maybe God is an alien. Am I close at all Reddragon?

To me, and alien is a being that isn't from this planet. That would make God, angles, and demons all aliens. I use the word alien because it isn't as mystical as the word God. What is a god in the first place? I wanted to use a word that didn't cary all the extra baggage that comes with the word god. If I design and program a virtual world, I'm god in that world as I have total control(ultimate power) in that world. But I'm not god of the world in which I exist. Could it be the same with God? At this point it doesn't make since to say god when we say He is God of this world but have no clue weather or not He's god of His own world.

Ummmm.... I'm not sure you got my point, but I hope I made it clear in other posts.

I think you misunderstood the question. However what you said in the previous post proves I definetly was correct. You think all atheists claim to know for sure that God doesn't exist, when in reality that couldn't be further from the truth. In fact the amount of atheists who claim to believe they are 100% sure that god doesn't exist is likely less than 10%.

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


floatingegg
Posts: 73
Joined: 2006-06-01
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

Reddragon wrote:

I trust my personal experiences because of repitition. This IMO is how people work. You experience something once then you may question it. But about the tenth time you're pretty sure you can trust it to be true. The sun has been comming up every day since I was born therefore it's safe to asume that it will come up tomarow. This may not be logical but has proven to be trustworthy.

What I'm referring to is the conclusions that you draw from your personal experiences. Several times a year, I have sleep paralysis. I don't draw the conclusion that I?m visited by demons or abducted by aliens. If you accept a naturalistic model for interpreting the data, then other far more likely explanations present themselves.


shorty
Posts: 120
Joined: 2006-05-18
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

so reddragon thinks the universe is like the matrix, right?


Reddragon
Posts: 54
Joined: 2006-06-27
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

peppermint wrote:

Why do you say that we're the most intellectual beings on the planet? We're animals too. We hunt, kill, hurt each other and experience primitive aspects of pleasure and pain. I hate it frankly when humans assume they're so much better than every other creature on the earth.

I'm only going on observation I'm no psychologist. Lesser creatures apear to not have these primitive emotions. Take chickens for an example. You can kill a chicken in front of other chickens, and they will appear to not care at all.

Quote:
Morals are dependable principles derived from emotion, which is primitive. In fact, emotion is perhaps the most primitive drive. It is not simply feeling angry or sad, but evolving to create instincts that help us survive. The reoccuring goal in life is to live and pass on our genes.

So is primitive bad? I'm assuming you're calling emotions primitive in order to show that they are bad so as to discredit God for having such emotions. We can't argue about what is good or bad unless you want to argue about oppinions. Good and bad are relative terms and very based on each person's point of view. It's like if I say chocolate ice cream is good and you say it's bad. It's only oppinion. Here I would say emotions, weather primitive or not, are good.

Quote:

I don't understand how this ties into an idea of there being a god.

I thought you brought the primitive emotions thing up... Maybe I should scroll back to see...

Quote:

If this so-called god loved us, why would it create a world full of such dynamic possibility? Why wouldn't it simply protect and shelter us?

This would be like the parent who doesn't let his kid watch TV because there's bad stuff on it. He doesn't let his kid go outside, or go on the internet, or hang out with friends. In a way this becomes something like a prison.

Dynamic possibilty is what makes this world interesting. Lows make the highs more appreciable and less mundane.

Also, here again we're back to the topic of good and bad. Is it good of God to make the world like it is? The answere to this question would only be a matter of oppinion.

If I tell people the Gospel, it's not because I care about whether or not they go to heaven or hell. I do it because I honestly believe that this is God's will and purpose for my life... weeeeeeeee!!!


Reddragon
Posts: 54
Joined: 2006-06-27
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

Sapient wrote:
Reddragon wrote:
Sapient wrote:
floatingegg wrote:
Could you please clarify the point for us?

Just for kicks I'll take a guess... keep in mind this is only a guess of the emergency broadcasting system.

We are atheists, we know for sure that god doesn't exist. How could we know for sure that God doesn't exist, maybe God is an alien. Am I close at all Reddragon?

To me, and alien is a being that isn't from this planet. That would make God, angles, and demons all aliens. I use the word alien because it isn't as mystical as the word God. What is a god in the first place? I wanted to use a word that didn't cary all the extra baggage that comes with the word god. If I design and program a virtual world, I'm god in that world as I have total control(ultimate power) in that world. But I'm not god of the world in which I exist. Could it be the same with God? At this point it doesn't make since to say god when we say He is God of this world but have no clue weather or not He's god of His own world.

Ummmm.... I'm not sure you got my point, but I hope I made it clear in other posts.

I think you misunderstood the question. However what you said in the previous post proves I definetly was correct. You think all atheists claim to know for sure that God doesn't exist, when in reality that couldn't be further from the truth. In fact the amount of atheists who claim to believe they are 100% sure that god doesn't exist is likely less than 10%.

I saw this and your other post... thanks for the info. I don't put all atheists in the same box. I know there are different levels of atheism as in some are stronger atheists than others.

If I tell people the Gospel, it's not because I care about whether or not they go to heaven or hell. I do it because I honestly believe that this is God's will and purpose for my life... weeeeeeeee!!!


Reddragon
Posts: 54
Joined: 2006-06-27
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

floatingegg wrote:
Reddragon wrote:

I trust my personal experiences because of repitition. This IMO is how people work. You experience something once then you may question it. But about the tenth time you're pretty sure you can trust it to be true. The sun has been comming up every day since I was born therefore it's safe to asume that it will come up tomarow. This may not be logical but has proven to be trustworthy.

What I'm referring to is the conclusions that you draw from your personal experiences. Several times a year, I have sleep paralysis. I don't draw the conclusion that I?m visited by demons or abducted by aliens.

There's more in the experience then just a feeling. There's information such as identification, images, etc. I know God when I experience His presence because of the information within the experience. Experiencing the presence of God is unique. But then experienceing the pressence of any spirit/alien is unique. I think that within the experience we perseive characteristics that ID the one behind the experience. Sort of like when I see people. I can recognize people I know by specific physical characteristics.

Here's the way I see it. It's like there realy is a sixth or even a seventh sense, but it's hard to explain except by relating these extra senses to the first five. Here's an example of what I mean: How do you explain to a blind person what clouds look like or what the color red looks like? You can't. But how do you explain a smell to someone who's never been able to smell? You can by relating the smell to a taste. That's why above I compared percieving a spirit's identifying characteristics to seeing a persons physical identifying characteristics.

I hope that was clear.

Quote:

If you accept a naturalistic model for interpreting the data, then other far more likely explanations present themselves.

Are you trying to say I'm crazy??? LoL

BTW I wonder how wiccans would explain their experiences. Specialy since they focus more time studying spiritual stuff and it's effect on this physical world.

If I tell people the Gospel, it's not because I care about whether or not they go to heaven or hell. I do it because I honestly believe that this is God's will and purpose for my life... weeeeeeeee!!!


floatingegg
Posts: 73
Joined: 2006-06-01
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

Reddragon wrote:
I hope that was clear.

I might misinterpret your meaning, so I desire further clarification.

Quote:
Are you trying to say I'm crazy??? LoL

I'm suggesting that there are explanations for your experiences that do not require the existence of God to be plausible.


Rigor_OMortis
Rigor_OMortis's picture
Posts: 557
Joined: 2006-06-18
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

OK, Reddragon has invited me to watch his posts on experiencing God... I have to admit that it's pretty clear for me now...

Question for Reddragon: you say you can sort out a God experience because of the information it provides. Now it's about time you take up a challenge: "Is the information I receive actual information, or is it just what I expect to receive? In what way is a God experience different from a dream or a hallucination? Isn't God from my visions (or whatever they are) "just how I imagined him", just because I've imagined him that way? Doesn't that God only match up to my every expectation and moral principle, just because they are my expectations and moral principles?"

I, for one, have experimented much in the "dreamworld"... it's an activity that I probably will never get tired of... I have learned how to control events in dreams, I have learned to hang on to that short edge between awake and dream, in which you are on "dreamy time dilation", but still approximately lucid, and such... and I have found out that it is possible to dream the contents of an entire lifetime during one night... You are able to imagine many details, many memories, many events and fictional characters and situations, and you are able to make them all link together... just as if you were sitting on an armchair and telling your grandsons "Oh... when I was young like you... what a rascal I used to be !" and such... I have also found out that such experiences (which I like to call "sentient auto-pilot experiences"Eye-wink can very much happen during daytime, in certain conditions... By this moment we know that a full hour of continuous, concentrated prayer acts almost like a hypnosis session... only that you do not go past the edge between awake and asleep... and that's when all the interesting stuff happens...

I opened the other topic related to God experiences not because I didn't know what "God experiences" are... I opened it because I wanted to see what people think, what people know about these experiences... and about the mass hallucinations that have been reported in several areas around the globe...

floatingegg - the explanation that doesn't require God to be plausible has just been given... but it will take many more years / generations for us to know enough about how the brain manages information in order to be able to understand all its mysteries.

Inquisition - "The flames are all long gone, but the pain lingers on..."
http://rigoromortis.blogspot.com/


MattShizzle
Posts: 7966
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

By the way, the way this thread was started was unethical - basically lying! How Christian! Laughing out loud


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7525
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

MattShizzle wrote:
By the way, the way this thread was started was unethical - basically lying! How Christian! :lol:

And if a Christian lies, what does that make him?

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


Reddragon
Posts: 54
Joined: 2006-06-27
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

floatingegg wrote:
Reddragon wrote:
I hope that was clear.

I might misinterpret your meaning, so I desire further clarification.

Quote:
Are you trying to say I'm crazy??? LoL

I'm suggesting that there are explanations for your experiences that do not require the existence of God to be plausible.

Ok, I'm going to try. Basicly it's like we realy do have a sixth sence. We pick up data through our senses based on the type of sense we're using. In this case with this sixth sense we're able to take in data about things we call spiritual.

If I tell people the Gospel, it's not because I care about whether or not they go to heaven or hell. I do it because I honestly believe that this is God's will and purpose for my life... weeeeeeeee!!!


Reddragon
Posts: 54
Joined: 2006-06-27
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

MattShizzle wrote:
By the way, the way this thread was started was unethical - basically lying! How Christian! :lol:

I don't get it... where did I lie???

If I tell people the Gospel, it's not because I care about whether or not they go to heaven or hell. I do it because I honestly believe that this is God's will and purpose for my life... weeeeeeeee!!!


Reddragon
Posts: 54
Joined: 2006-06-27
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

Sapient wrote:
MattShizzle wrote:
By the way, the way this thread was started was unethical - basically lying! How Christian! :lol:

And if a Christian lies, what does that make him?

HA HA HA... very funny!

If I tell people the Gospel, it's not because I care about whether or not they go to heaven or hell. I do it because I honestly believe that this is God's will and purpose for my life... weeeeeeeee!!!


Reddragon
Posts: 54
Joined: 2006-06-27
User is offlineOffline
religouse cow poop!!!

Hello

Rigor_OMortis wrote:
OK, Reddragon has invited me to watch his posts on experiencing God... I have to admit that it's pretty clear for me now...

Question for Reddragon: you say you can sort out a God experience because of the information it provides. Now it's about time you take up a challenge: "Is the information I receive actual information, or is it just what I expect to receive?

Ahhh... You got me thinking back to my childhood. Now I think I know what it's like to be an atheist. I remember being tought about God but no evidence that He was real. I just believed because I trusted my parents.

The experiences came later, even before I became a Christian. At that time I didn't know anything about experiencing the presence of God, so when it happened it came as a surprise. Also these experiences happened outside of church (as far as I knew church was fake as I never learned anything nor experienced anything in chruch at that time - I learned from that that there are good churches and bad ones). Sorry if I get off topic.

To answere your question: the information is actual information because in the begining I never expected it. Now I do expect it because of repitition. But you can even tell if God is happy with you at times, you can also tell if He's leading you in a particular direction. When people talk about being guided by the Holy Spirit, this is what they're talking about.

Quote:

In what way is a God experience different from a dream or a hallucination?

It's different from a dream because you can be fully awake, driving a car. You could shout "halleluja(sp)!!!", or "Praise God!!!", and bam! There's an experience(or not, it's up to God) right there while you're driving.

Hallucinations would deal more with visions or things you think you see. My experiences don't realy have anything to do with seeing anything. Ok, I admit there have been a few times, but not often.

Quote:

Isn't God from my visions (or whatever they are) "just how I imagined him", just because I've imagined him that way? Doesn't that God only match up to my every expectation and moral principle, just because they are my expectations and moral principles?"

I didn't know what to expect with my first few experiences because I didn't know of such a thing as experiencing God's prescence. So there were no expectations to shape my view of what a God experience should be like. Now I have expectations. I expect future experiences to match up with older ones. This is just the result of repitition.

Quote:

I, for one, have experimented much in the "dreamworld"... it's an activity that I probably will never get tired of... I have learned how to control events in dreams, I have learned to hang on to that short edge between awake and dream, in which you are on "dreamy time dilation", but still approximately lucid, and such... and I have found out that it is possible to dream the contents of an entire lifetime during one night... You are able to imagine many details, many memories, many events and fictional characters and situations, and you are able to make them all link together... just as if you were sitting on an armchair and telling your grandsons "Oh... when I was young like you... what a rascal I used to be !" and such... I have also found out that such experiences (which I like to call "sentient auto-pilot experiences"Eye-wink can very much happen during daytime, in certain conditions...

Ahhh... Playing with dreams can be fun. I used to do it a little. Now the only time I like to take control of my dreams is when I want to fly. ooooo.. flying is sooooo funnnn... LoL

Quote:

By this moment we know that a full hour of continuous, concentrated prayer acts almost like a hypnosis session...

Heh.. I know. It can be like going to a different state of conciousness. This can happen in less than an hour. I usualy stick to short prayers though.

Quote:

only that you do not go past the edge between awake and asleep... and that's when all the interesting stuff happens...

Oh yeah. I know about this. I hate that state. I've been stuck between sleep and awake before. And it's not fun. Ofcourse I think this is the state wichins go to in order to do astral travel.

Quote:

I opened the other topic related to God experiences not because I didn't know what "God experiences" are... I opened it because I wanted to see what people think, what people know about these experiences... and about the mass hallucinations that have been reported in several areas around the globe...

I don't know much about hallucinations. I try to stay away from strange mushrooms. LoL

Ok, really. What are you talking about? What mass hallucinations?

If I tell people the Gospel, it's not because I care about whether or not they go to heaven or hell. I do it because I honestly believe that this is God's will and purpose for my life... weeeeeeeee!!!