Blasphemy?? (THE NEW BLASPHEMY CHALLENGE MERGING THREADS)

squeakycheez07
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Blasphemy?? (THE NEW BLASPHEMY CHALLENGE MERGING THREADS)

So, I just wanted to say that the Blasphemy Challenge is all wrong. ....And i'm sorry no one has told you what Mark 3:29 really means. And you can find the same thing about blasphemy in Matthew 12:32 and Luke 12:10.

Anyways, If you read the whole chapter of Mark 3, you'll see that the pharisess were attributing the power of Jesus with the power of Satan.

Jesus said what he did, not because they sined the worse sin, but becuase they were never going to ask for forgivness in the first place.

The Pharisees rejected Jesus, the only who can forgive, and they rejected the Holy Spirit, the one that would push them towards repentance. And since they repeatedly rejected and denied both Jesus and Holy Spirit....they are never going to ask forgivness to be forgiven.

I hope that makes sense.

Peace out.


Colby R
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ATOMIC SKUNK wrote: Colby

ATOMIC SKUNK wrote:

Colby R wrote:
I will first state that I am not anti science, I enjoy hospitals and medicine,x-rays ect. I just dont want to build the foundation of my life on ever changing ground. IMHO the foundation of Christianity has no need to change, that being salvation through Christ. The whole new earth old earth is still a mystery to me simply because the Bible never gives a start date, it just says "In the begining", on the science side I dont think the earth is billions of years old simply because I dont trust the methods of testing age. The age of the earth is a non-essential to me, the essential belief is that God created the earth and everything we see, touch, smell and hear. How long or how long ago is most likely never going to be answered defenitively. What you see as beuty in the ability to change in science or (evolution) is the very reason I dont believe it. What would be the point in believing something to be a fact when it could very well be determined a farce by the same people who promote the idea? Why would I invest my time or energy in that. I believe that I have a better purpose on this earth and a greater gift when I die, instead of just being and dying.
 

 

If the here and now is just a waiting period to your ultimate goal and reward, why don't you just strap on a bomb now, and go to Yahweh/Jesus land? 

If that was the case why wouldnt Christians agree with abortion


BGH
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Colby R I am not trying to

Colby R

I am not trying to disprove your faith at this point. I do not understand where you got the idea I was here to disprove your belief system. I was just responding to your attack of science. I am trying to show you that science teaches us about the world through evidence. Faith requires zero evidence and therefore is more comforting to many people.

Basically you said that science was hard to believe in because it is ever changing. If that is how you view the world and would rather rely on the constant comfort of faith that is your prerogative.

I think I see what the issue is now...

In your opinion belief in something without evidence, which is completely un-falsifiable, is very comforting to you. Trust in observations, data, and fact is unsettling because there may be new data tomorrow and every day thereafter.

For some it is a scary thought to have to live in the real world and not depend on the fall back plan of magic and saviors.


ATOMIC SKUNK
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That christians don't agree

That christians don't agree with abortion is a false statement. Christian women are the largest group of women that have abortions, especially catholics, they are number 1.

"Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Jesus triad)

"So the donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey" (The Donkey) Numbers Chapter 22:30


pariahjane
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ATOMIC SKUNK wrote: That

ATOMIC SKUNK wrote:
That christians don't agree with abortion is a false statement. Christian women are the largest group of women that have abortions, especially catholics, they are number 1.

 I'm curious about this stat, can you please provide me with the information?  

Thanks. 

If god takes life he's an indian giver


ATOMIC SKUNK
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I'm at work right now, and I

I'm at work right now, and I don't have my files and links to the stats that I have, but I promise you I'll post them tonight. This information is readily available if you search for it.

"Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Jesus triad)

"So the donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey" (The Donkey) Numbers Chapter 22:30


ATOMIC SKUNK
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The U.S is said to be around

The U.S is said to be around 80% christian. It's an absurd statement to insinuate that all these millions of abortions are mostly non-christians.

"Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Jesus triad)

"So the donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey" (The Donkey) Numbers Chapter 22:30


ATOMIC SKUNK
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Christians cannot claim any

Christians cannot claim any "moral highground". Even crime and prison statistics show that per population percentage, they are the highest group of offenders.

"Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Jesus triad)

"So the donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey" (The Donkey) Numbers Chapter 22:30


Colby R
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BGH wrote: Colby R I am

BGH wrote:

Colby R

I am not trying to disprove your faith at this point. I do not understand where you got the idea I was here to disprove your belief system. I was just responding to your attack of science. I am trying to show you that science teaches us about the world through evidence. Faith requires zero evidence and therefore is more comforting to many people.

Basically you said that science was hard to believe in because it is ever changing. If that is how you view the world and would rather rely on the constant comfort of faith that is your prerogative.

I think I see what the issue is now...

In your opinion belief in something without evidence, which is completely un-falsifiable, is very comforting to you. Trust in observations, data, and fact is unsettling because there may be new data tomorrow and every day thereafter.

For some it is a scary thought to have to live in the real world and not depend on the fall back plan of magic and saviors.

I never thought that you were trying to disprove my faith and I was not attacking anyone. I dont believe in magic or have a fall back plan. The point of the quote was to say that I have a strong foundation in Christ and I could not see myself building a foundation for my life that was not strong. When someone tells me this is a fact, I take that to mean an absolute, no if and or buts. Often science says fact and it becomes sorta, inthe right conditions, well we think this is how it was so we assume this. I dont want to put my faith in that. I am not knocking all science but its fairly simple to see my point.

 

Let me take back a previous statement that you could not prove a faith wrong. If the Jesus tomb deal would have had conclusive evidence it was jesus' bones that would have done it for me. But they cant and people have tried for generations to debunk Christianity to no avail.

Also I do not have faith because I am afraid. I have faith in God because I choose as a rational person. If I am wrong I havent lost anything and if I am right I have gained everything. But its not about that, its about the relationship with Christ.

I would also ask if science has such great evidences and religion has none. Why are atheist's and non-believers in some sort of religion a vast minority in the world. I would say because religion does offer proof or evidence to its believers, in prayer. But of course that is dismissed as magical fantasy. It doesnt bother me that you dont believe really, the Bible says that not everyone will believe. But I want everyone to believe and have a better hope.


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ATOMIC SKUNK wrote: The U.S

ATOMIC SKUNK wrote:
The U.S is said to be around 80% christian. It's an absurd statement to insinuate that all these millions of abortions are mostly non-christians.

 I'm not insinuating anything, I'd just like the stats.  When you consider how many 'christians' there are in this country, it would make sense that the majority of abortions are performed on 'christians'.  It was the catholic statement that I was more interested in. 

If god takes life he's an indian giver


Colby R
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ATOMIC SKUNK wrote: The U.S

ATOMIC SKUNK wrote:
The U.S is said to be around 80% christian. It's an absurd statement to insinuate that all these millions of abortions are mostly non-christians.

 

I never said that more non-christians recieved abotions than Christians. I said the CHURCH does not support abortion, meaning the doctrine of the Church even the Catholic Church. It would numericly stand to reason though that since the majority of Americans assoctiate themselves as Christians and only about 9% of america claims to be athiest, Christians would get more abortions.

I will make a very profound statement here. The worst part of and biggest downfall of Christianity is Christians. We are still people we still make mistakes. I agree that we should not hold anyone to our standard when we cant live up to it ourselves. We are hypocrits just like everyone else. Was that a surprise.


pariahjane
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Colby R wrote: I will make

Colby R wrote:

I will make a very profound statement here. The worst part of and biggest downfall of Christianity is Christians. We are still people we still make mistakes. I agree that we should not hold anyone to our standard when we cant live up to it ourselves. We are hypocrits just like everyone else. Was that a surprise.

You say you agree that you should not hold anyone to your standard when you can't live up to it yourself. That's just a tad bit arrogant, first off. That would suggest that christians superior to non-christians. You accept that perhaps christians are a bit hypocritcal as well. Then would you agree that the government of America should not pass or make laws that are essentially based on christian dogma? Would you agree that putting a monument of the ten commandments in a court house, or not allowing a homosexual couple to marry (and I'm talking secular marriage) is in fact forcing christian values on the people of America?

If god takes life he's an indian giver


BGH
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Quote: Often science says

Quote:
Often science says fact and it becomes sorta, inthe right conditions, well we think this is how it was so we assume this. I dont want to put my faith in that. I am not knocking all science but its fairly simple to see my point.

I understand there are new studies all the time with data and it can be confusing. But I must say, most people in thier daily lives accept science. As you said earlier you rely on x-rays, medicine, etc. Science is such a huge part of our daily lives we hardly notice it anymore, telecommunications, antibiotics, hygene, manufacturing, commuting, entertainment, computers... the list really goes on and on. Where the theist runs into problems accepting science is in instances when their faith intersects with it, i.e. the age of the earth or evolution. Then it becomes something not worth trusting.

 

Quote:
If I am wrong I havent lost anything and if I am right I have gained everything.

This is a form of Pascal's Wager , do a quick search on this argument and you will see it has been refuted over and over. Basically if you are wrong there are many things lost. What if you chose the wrong god? What if muslims are right? What if hindus are right? What if all the gods worshipped by the human race are wrong and it is something completely different?

But let's just say I am right and there is no god, what have you lost? I think you have lost a lot, you lost the time worshipping the non-existant and in this short life that seems costly. Also you have lost any money given to that particular denomination. From my viewpoint all this time and money could have been better used toward helping your fellow man or spent with your family. I have heard simular arguements on the RRS Show and I think this states what is the biggest loss of all.

Quote:
I would also ask if science has such great evidences and religion has none. Why are atheist's and non-believers in some sort of religion a vast minority in the world. I would say because religion does offer proof or evidence to its believers, in prayer.

This is an "ad populum" logical fallacy. Just because many numbers of people are followers does not make the belief valid. Hitler had many germans believing his propaganda, but it did not make the beliefs correct.

You seem to be here to engage in fair discussion which is good. Too many theists come here looking for fights.

I have a suggestion look around this site some more, read the essays, watch the videos, check out infidels.org, look into the sciences more, read everything you can on the subject with an open mind. If you still choose to believe it will be a well informed decision.


Colby R
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I think that in a democracy

I think that in a democracy it should be put to a vote and the majority rules as long as it does not opress the express constitutional rights of an individual. So if a majority wanted a plaque of the commandments then I dont care, if the majority votes for homosexual marriage I dont care. I will say that I dont think the Gov. should dictate to consnting adults who they can or cant marry, but it should be a vote.


razorphreak
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pariahjane wrote: You say

pariahjane wrote:
You say you agree that you should not hold anyone to your standard when you can't live up to it yourself. That's just a tad bit arrogant, first off. That would suggest that christians superior to non-christians.

You misunderstood.  It has nothing to do with "living up to a standard"...

Romans 3: 10-12 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

What does this mean?  Nobody is perfect.  The fact that Christians are called hypocrites is proof that as a human being, we never achieve what was intended.

Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

 But being a Christian has advantages...and these are all related to faith.

pariahjane wrote:
Then would you agree that the government of America should not pass or make laws that are essentially based on christian dogma?

Such as? 

pariahjane wrote:
Would you agree that putting a monument of the ten commandments in a court house, or not allowing a homosexual couple to marry (and I'm talking secular marriage) is in fact forcing christian values on the people of America?

My opinion...I agree and I disagree.  I do believe that a court of law is authority on earth and my faith tells me it is established by God to be so..

Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

It is clear that God established what the "state" is and you can easily see that it supports the separation of church and state as well since the governing authorities have the authority of God to do what is right.  Displaying the ten commandments or "In God We Trust" are not necessary - they are implied.

Now, when it comes to actually setting the laws however...

Romans 13:2-3 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.

When in the bible did it say that a man should lie with a man and it be acceptable as a form of the "joining of flesh"??  I don't wish to condone any individual that is homosexual however that does not mean I want to accept the sin as well.  For me as a Christian, accepting homosexuality as an acceptable form of marriage is accepting a sin to be OK.  What I've been curious about is I had thought the argument was about benefits and benefactors...what I've learned is that ANY person (in most states) can in fact name their partner as such.  It is wrong to deny any person that right and the ability to leave their estate to whomever they want.  Marriage however is another story...and I want to know what benefit would they get from it?  The title?  You would already be titled as a couple...and if you wanted that, isn't that also forcing their lifestyle upon society?

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


Colby R
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But let's just say I am

But let's just say I am right and there is no god, what have you lost? I think you have lost a lot, you lost the time worshipping the non-existant and in this short life that seems costly. Also you have lost any money given to that particular denomination. From my viewpoint all this time and money could have been better used toward helping your fellow man or spent with your family. I have heard simular arguements on the RRS Show and I think this states what is the biggest loss of all.

 

Lets just look at this right now. First money, every penny I donate is tax deductable. Helping my fellow man, I volunteer has a high school wrestling coach and a mentor, not to mention my wife is a fire fighter. We also went on a missions trip last year and brought fresh water to 5 cities in Puerto Rico at no cost to the cities or country,next year we ar assisting some other missionaries to build housing for girls sold into prostitution in India and also donating over $2500 a year to the Salvation Army. Spending time with my family, I spend every single day with my family doing many things, one of the cornerstones of the being a Christian to me is having a strong family. So I think my priorities are in line and we give plenty whenever we can.


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That is all you have to

That is all you have to comment on? Really? A justification of why it is not time or money lost. No comment on anything else I said?

Have you devoted your life to christ? According to christian teachings if you are truly devoted christ he is to come before all others in your life. This worship, this time spent praying and paying homage to character with no clear evidence to support as being factual, this is not time lost if you are wrong?

This question of "what if you are wrong?" is given to atheists on a regular basis but we ask the same of you. What if you are wrong, sure you give money to the church, sure it is write off, do you really know where that money goes? Does it really make it to the people who need it? Could you personally have done better more helpful things with that money? What of your time, sure you spend a few minutes daily praying, no big deal. Not much time taken away from other things. What about going to church? That is a few hours weekly at least. What if you are wrong? All of that is time lost, spent pursuing and praying to a deity who is likely not there.

I am glad it has made your family strong, would the family bonds be any less if your christ faith was not there? Would you love your wife or children less?

I am glad you perform works of charity, would you stop giving of your time and money if you found out that there is no god? Do you give to help your fellow man or do you give to appease your invisible friend? Would you feel less empathy if you had no faith?

BGH wrote:

I think you have lost a lot,

That is why I stated it that way, it is of my opinion time spent worshipping a deity that may not exist is a loss.


ATOMIC SKUNK
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pariahjane wrote:

pariahjane wrote:

ATOMIC SKUNK wrote:
The U.S is said to be around 80% christian. It's an absurd statement to insinuate that all these millions of abortions are mostly non-christians.

I'm not insinuating anything, I'd just like the stats. When you consider how many 'christians' there are in this country, it would make sense that the majority of abortions are performed on 'christians'. It was the catholic statement that I was more interested in.

 

I'm sorry if it seemed my reply was entirely directed at you. I tend to make statements to everybody......and I'm a newbie hereEmbarassed

"Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Jesus triad)

"So the donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey" (The Donkey) Numbers Chapter 22:30


Colby R
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This is all I have time to

This is all I have time to comment on right now. But just one thing I think I waste more time workig than anything else. So the abolishment of money or the need of money would really help me save the most time.


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At least you are honest

At least you are honest about this Colby, I think most of the members of your club prefer to overlook these stats, and try and convince themselves that their god worship, and beliefs somehow make them better than others in regards to morality. The stats I've seen, showed percentages of the population, not just bulk numbers. Without my references with me, I can only say that per percentage of the population, christians commit far more crimes than atheists.

"Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Jesus triad)

"So the donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey" (The Donkey) Numbers Chapter 22:30


ATOMIC SKUNK
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pariahjane wrote: ATOMIC

pariahjane wrote:

ATOMIC SKUNK wrote:
That christians don't agree with abortion is a false statement. Christian women are the largest group of women that have abortions, especially catholics, they are number 1.

 I'm curious about this stat, can you please provide me with the information?  

Thanks. 

   

 

It appears that out of the Christians in the U.S, the majority claimed to be Protestant. Therefore, Protestant women have the most abortions, but percentage wise, Catholics have more than the norm.

 

"Women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as "Born-again/Evangelical"." 

"Catholic women are 29% more likely than Protestants to have an abortion, but are about as likely as all women nationally to do so."

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/SFL/abortion_statistics.htm

 

 

"Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Jesus triad)

"So the donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey" (The Donkey) Numbers Chapter 22:30


ATOMIC SKUNK
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The Federal Bureau of

The Federal Bureau of Prisons

5 March 1997

http://www.bop.gov/   

The data came from Denise Golumbaski, who was a Research Analyst for the Federal Bureau of Prisons. The data was compiled from up-to-the-day figures on March 5th, 1997. 

Catholic 29267 39.164%

Protestant 26162 35.008%

Muslim 5435 7.273%

American Indian 2408 3.222%

Nation of Islam 1734 2.320%

Rasta 1485 1.987%

Jewish 1325 1.773%

Church of Christ 1303 1.744%

Pentecostal 1093 1.463%

Moorish 1066 1.426%

Buddhist 882 1.180%

Jehovah Witness 665 0.890%

Adventist 621 0.831%

Orthodox 375 0.502%

Mormon 298 0.399%

Scientology 190 0.254%

Atheist 156 0.209%

Hindu 119 0.159%

Santeria 117 0.157%

Sikh 14 0.019%

Bahai 9 0.012%

Krishna 7 0.009%  

 

83.761% Judeo-Christian Total .

Note that atheists, being a moderate proportion of the USA population (about 8-16%) are disproportionately less in the prison populations (0.21%).  

Texas Department of Criminal Justice, 1999

Source: Peggy Fikac. "More prison inmates say they're Baptist than any other religion." Associated Press (The Abilene Reporter-News)

Baptist 39,781 30.3%

Unknown* 28,890 22.0%

Catholic 23,637 18.0%

Other 39,009 29.7%

-------- ------- ------

Total 131,316 100.0%

"Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Jesus triad)

"So the donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey" (The Donkey) Numbers Chapter 22:30


BGH
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Colby R wrote: This is all

Colby R wrote:
This is all I have time to comment on right now. But just one thing I think I waste more time workig than anything else. So the abolishment of money or the need of money would really help me save the most time.

 i think most of us would love to quit working, but I like to eat and sleep under a roof so that isn't an option for me or probably most of us here.

I would love to hear the rest of your comments though, when you get time. 


ShadowOfMan
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Quote: ShadowOfMan

Quote:
ShadowOfMan wrote:
What you all need to understand is that it doesn't matter to an atheist whether or not there are any unforgivable sins. The Blasphemy Challenge is something fun that atheists are doing to publicly declare ourselves. It's getting us press and helping to organize our online community.

 

Then why is it necessary to disprove theism for the sake of your own desire to be "organized"? You have the freedom to not follow a religion. You don't even have to believe in God...trust me if God wants you to believe in him he'll let you know. You don't seek him he seeks you and there is nothing that can be done to ask him to do otherwise.

Never said that we are trying to disprove a religion.  That's impossible.  We do have the right to not follow a religion.  We also have the right to interpret the bible and make fun of it in anyway we want to.

Quote:
ShadowOfMan wrote:
The way you now interpret Mark is most likely completely different then the early church interpreted it. Blasphemy was punishable by DEATH at one point don't forget.

 

Ummmm no. The REASON why it was punishable by death was from old testament rules and man's desire to take God's law into their own hands (which was wrong anyway). It was not God's will to have it done that way (because of it was Jesus would have killed the woman caught in adultry himself). The Gospel of Mark is very cut and dry; you cannot miss it unless you are intentionally trying to.

You've got to be fucking kidding me.  Nevermind the punishment.  The point is, the bible says that you will be eternally damned.  You may not see it that way, but you do not speak for all Christians.  Do you?  The bible is all about interpretation.  We interpret Mark 3-29 to mean that....He that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.  That's how I interpret it.  You interpret it by ignoring the script altogether.

Quote:

ShadowOfMan wrote:
This idea, that there is no unforgivable sin, is new and nothing but a reaction to the Blasphemy Challenge. Maybe the Methodists don't believe in an unforgivable sin, but maybe the Catholics do!

 

If you are a Christian, which is not a religion by the way, it's the belief Jesus as the Messiah, you have ALWAYS believed in the unforgivable sin because it's there in the bible. You cannot be selective in which parts you will and what parts you won't believe.

Where you just making my point?  Was that my line but more incoherent and half stupid?

Quote:

ShadowOfMan wrote:
Science has changed only slightly, as a method of observation, since Aristotle. Religions, especially Christianity, has had to change drastically in order to keep up with scientific discovery all along.

 

Oh really? When dinosaurs were first discovered the "scientists" got how to assemble them incorrectly so many times it took well over a century before they started to kinda sorta get it right. For decades since T-Rex was discovered, they believe he stood up right and was a serious predator until Horner came along and corrected it. Observational science said JFK could not have been killed by only one shooter. Observational science discredited flight until the Wright brothers proved it. Observational science had it where the Earth was the center of the solar system. Observational science had it to where the world was flat until....get my point?

Science is not a world view.  It is not an opinion on how the world works.  Whether or not a T-Rex slithers or not is not science.  Evolution is not science.  Evolution is evolution.  Science is the method by which we determine that evolution exists.  You have to understand this!  The existence of bacteria is not due to science.  Science helped us understand the technologies that allow us to observe bacteria.  Science will probably never be wrong, ever (as a method to reason).  Yup, I said it.  Evidence will always be incomplete.  Opinions on worldviews will always be replaced or refined with better ideas. 

Quote:

ShadowOfMan wrote:
Religion has had to reorganize when overwhelming evidence contradicts it's foundations. The reason theists don't accept evolution right now is because they are ignorant to the evidence, whether it is a conscience ignorance or not. One day evolution will be concidered God's method of the creation of all living things in the universe by all educated theists, just as a large percentage of theists already accept it.

 

 

Wrong again. I will tell you that I don't accept evolution because of the assumptions that are made to explain "spontaneous life". Something sparked and somehow it worked?

And I will tell you in turn, that religions are the ones that claim life came spontaniously from magic.  A nobel prize winning scientist showed me that organic molecules can be created from inorganic matter.  Until God makes me a man from dirt, I'll believe Stanley Miller.

A daughter of hope and fear, religion explains to Ignorance the nature of the unknowable. -Ambrose Bierce


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"The Lord God formed man

"The Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living being."

"And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east; and there he put the man whom he had formed."

 

"Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Jesus triad)

"So the donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey" (The Donkey) Numbers Chapter 22:30


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ShadowOfMan wrote:

ShadowOfMan wrote:
We also have the right to interpret the bible and make fun of it in anyway we want to.


And you wonder why just don't stop what they are doing and tell you "yea, you are right and I see now why I was wrong."

ShadowOfMan wrote:
The point is, the bible says that you will be eternally damned. You may not see it that way, but you do not speak for all Christians. Do you? The bible is all about interpretation. We interpret Mark 3-29 to mean that....He that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation. That's how I interpret it. You interpret it by ignoring the script altogether.


Ummm what? Tell me have you read Mark 3:28 and Mark 3:30 in addition to verse 29?? It's not me speaking to the true meaning of WHY you are dammed...and it's not interpretation either. The words are there in black and white and you are ignoring them....so how did I ignore it?

ShadowOfMan wrote:
It is not an opinion on how the world works. Whether or not a T-Rex slithers or not is not science. Evolution is not science. Evolution is evolution. Science is the method by which we determine that evolution exists. You have to understand this! The existence of bacteria is not due to science. Science helped us understand the technologies that allow us to observe bacteria. Science will probably never be wrong, ever (as a method to reason). Yup, I said it. Evidence will always be incomplete. Opinions on worldviews will always be replaced or refined with better ideas.


I'm not talking about how evolution is explained or how a t-rex is explained but rather the "science" that was used to come up with this explaination. Saying science will never be wrong is a fallacy on so many levels because even Einstien knew that science would always re-evaluate itself. The fact that some scientists denied that flight was possible or how others used "science" to explain what dinosaurs were and were later proven wrong...how do you explain that? Sure you could say they were "right at the time" but yet if you are proven wrong they were wrong, no matter for how long they were right.

ShadowOfMan wrote:
And I will tell you in turn, that religions are the ones that claim life came spontaniously from magic. A nobel prize winning scientist showed me that organic molecules can be created from inorganic matter. Until God makes me a man from dirt, I'll believe Stanley Miller.


If you were not meant to understand Cisco routers or how to cook then you were not meant to understand it. In the same way, some people were not meant to understand the "magic" that is God and God's works. Only God can give you the ability to understand and if it is not his will to do so, then it's why you would easily dismiss it as nonsense.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak

razorphreak wrote:
ShadowOfMan wrote:
We also have the right to interpret the bible and make fun of it in anyway we want to.


And you wonder why just don't stop what they are doing and tell you "yea, you are right and I see now why I was wrong."

ShadowOfMan wrote:
The point is, the bible says that you will be eternally damned. You may not see it that way, but you do not speak for all Christians. Do you? The bible is all about interpretation. We interpret Mark 3-29 to mean that....He that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation. That's how I interpret it. You interpret it by ignoring the script altogether.


Ummm what? Tell me have you read Mark 3:28 and Mark 3:30 in addition to verse 29?? It's not me speaking to the true meaning of WHY you are dammed...and it's not interpretation either. The words are there in black and white and you are ignoring them....so how did I ignore it?

ShadowOfMan wrote:
It is not an opinion on how the world works. Whether or not a T-Rex slithers or not is not science. Evolution is not science. Evolution is evolution. Science is the method by which we determine that evolution exists. You have to understand this! The existence of bacteria is not due to science. Science helped us understand the technologies that allow us to observe bacteria. Science will probably never be wrong, ever (as a method to reason). Yup, I said it. Evidence will always be incomplete. Opinions on worldviews will always be replaced or refined with better ideas.


I'm not talking about how evolution is explained or how a t-rex is explained but rather the "science" that was used to come up with this explaination. Saying science will never be wrong is a fallacy on so many levels because even Einstien knew that science would always re-evaluate itself. The fact that some scientists denied that flight was possible or how others used "science" to explain what dinosaurs were and were later proven wrong...how do you explain that? Sure you could say they were "right at the time" but yet if you are proven wrong they were wrong, no matter for how long they were right.

ShadowOfMan wrote:
And I will tell you in turn, that religions are the ones that claim life came spontaniously from magic. A nobel prize winning scientist showed me that organic molecules can be created from inorganic matter. Until God makes me a man from dirt, I'll believe Stanley Miller.


If you were not meant to understand Cisco routers or how to cook then you were not meant to understand it. In the same way, some people were not meant to understand the "magic" that is God and God's works. Only God can give you the ability to understand and if it is not his will to do so, then it's why you would easily dismiss it as nonsense.
  

 

What god do you worship? Yahweh/Jesus?

Give us the qualities of your god, so we may have a common reference.

Is he/it on this list?

Agdistis or Angdistis

Ah Puch

Ahura Mazda

Alberich

Amaterasu

An

Anat

Andvari

Anshar

Anu

Aphrodite

Apollo

Apsu

Ares

Artemis

Asclepius

Asherah

Athena

Athirat

Athtart

Atlas

Baal

Ba Xian

Bacchus

Balder

Bast

Bellona

Bergelmir

Bes

Bixia Yuanjin

Bragi

Brahma

Brigit

Camaxtli

Ceres

Ceridwen

Cernunnos

Chac

Chalchiuhtlicue

Charun

Chemosh

Cheng-huang

Cybele

Dagon

Damkina (Dumkina)

Davlin

Demeter

Diana

Di Cang

Dionysus

Ea

El

Enki

Enlil

Epona

Ereskigal

Farbauti

Fenrir

Forseti

Freya

Freyr

Frigg

Gaia

Ganesha

Ganga

Garuda

Gauri Geb

GeebaDeeba

Geong Si

God

Great KuKu

Hades

Hanuman

Helios

Heng-o (Chang-o)

Hephaestus

Hera

Hermes

Hod

Hoderi

Hoori

Horus

Hotei

Hestia

Huitzilopochtli

Hsi-Wang-Mu

Hygeia

Inanna

Inti

Ishtar

Isis

Ixtab

Izanaki

Izanami

Jesus

JingaJanga

Juno

Jupiter

Kagutsuchi

Kartikeya

Khepri

Ki

Kingu

Kinich Ahau

Kishar

Krishna

Kukulcan

Lakshmi

Liza

Loki

Lugh

Magna Mater

Marduk

Mars

Medb

Mercury

Mimir

Minerva

Mithras

Morrigan

Mot

Mummu

Nammu

Nanna

Nanna (Norse)

Nanse

Nature

Nemesis

Nephthys

Neptune

Nergal

Ninazu

Ninhurzag

Nintu

Ninurta

Njord

Nut

Odin

Og

Ohkuninushi

Ohyamatsumi

Orgelmir

Osiris

Ostara

Pan

Parvati

Poseidon

Quetzalcoatl

Rama

Ravana

Re

Rhea

Sabazius

Sarasvati

Shiva

Seshat

Seti

Shachar

Shalim

Shamash

Shapsu

Shen Yi

Shiva

Shu

Si-Wang-Mu

Sin

Sirona

Sol

Surya

Susanoh

Tawaret

Tefnut

Tezcatlipoca

Thanatos

Thor

Tiamat

Tlaloc

Tonatiuh

Toyo-Uke-Bime

Tyche

Tyr

Uugg

Unknown

Unknown Omnipotent Being

Utu

Uzume

Venus

Vesta

Vishnu Vulcan

Xenu

Xipe

Xi Wang-mu

Xochipilli

Xochiquetzal

Yahweh

Yam

Yaw

Yarikh

Ymir

Yu-huang

Yum Kimil

Zeus

 

"Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Jesus triad)

"So the donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey" (The Donkey) Numbers Chapter 22:30


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ATOMIC SKUNK wrote: What

ATOMIC SKUNK wrote:
What god do you worship? Yahweh/Jesus?

Yes...

 

 


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razorphreak wrote: ATOMIC

razorphreak wrote:

ATOMIC SKUNK wrote:
What god do you worship? Yahweh/Jesus?

Yes...

 

 

  

 

Why would you say......

"If you were not meant to understand Cisco routers or how to cook then you were not meant to understand it. In the same way, some people were not meant to understand the "magic" that is God and God's works. Only God can give you the ability to understand and if it is not his will to do so, then it's why you would easily dismiss it as nonsense."

Yahweh/Jesus has volumes of stories, that describe in great detail, how his understanding and "magic" is available to all that seek it. Why is your version of Yahweh/Jesus's understanding, only available to those who he selects?

"Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Jesus triad)

"So the donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey" (The Donkey) Numbers Chapter 22:30


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ATOMIC SKUNK

ATOMIC SKUNK wrote:
Yahweh/Jesus has volumes of stories, that describe in great detail, how his understanding and "magic" is available to all that seek it. Why is your version of Yahweh/Jesus's understanding, only available to those who he selects?

Because that is what is written...

Romans 9: 16, 19-21 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy...One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

The gift of believing is not something that any person can simply say "OK, I believe."  It's not anyone's choice to believe...

Ephesians 2: 8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast

There is no free will when it comes to the gift of the spirit.  Some have used the following to say that yes we do:

Matthew 7:7-8 Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

however how can this be the end of it if Paul and Jesus said more than just that when it comes to believing and accepting God?

John 6: 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him

Matthew 11:27 No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

It is dogma that hides the true meaning of these words to make people think they can achieve salvation though works or actions.  Because we do not choose to believe, and one else can either, not all will understand the words or accept them...and that is what was meant to happen.  Only God can reveal himself to you; there is nothing you can do to find him unless he wants you to.  It is however possible to lose him once found...

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote:ATOMIC

razorphreak wrote:

ATOMIC SKUNK wrote:
Yahweh/Jesus has volumes of stories, that describe in great detail, how his understanding and "magic" is available to all that seek it. Why is your version of Yahweh/Jesus's understanding, only available to those who he selects?

Because that is what is written...

Romans 9: 16, 19-21 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy...One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

The gift of believing is not something that any person can simply say "OK, I believe."  It's not anyone's choice to believe...

Ephesians 2: 8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast

There is no free will when it comes to the gift of the spirit.  Some have used the following to say that yes we do:

Matthew 7:7-8 Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

however how can this be the end of it if Paul and Jesus said more than just that when it comes to believing and accepting God?

John 6: 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him

Matthew 11:27 No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

It is dogma that hides the true meaning of these words to make people think they can achieve salvation though works or actions.  Because we do not choose to believe, and one else can either, not all will understand the words or accept them...and that is what was meant to happen.  Only God can reveal himself to you; there is nothing you can do to find him unless he wants you to.  It is however possible to lose him once found...

 

"Only God can reveal himself to you; there is nothing you can do to find him unless he wants you to."  

 

LaughingNot quite. You only help point out the endless contradictions of these stories.

And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen.  "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."  Matthew 21:21-22

    " Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.  For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."  Matthew 7:7-8

     "Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.  For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."  Matthew 18:19-20

    " Amen, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it shall be done for him.  Therefore I tell you, all that you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it and it shall be yours."  Mark11:24-25

     "And I tell you, ask and you will receive; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.  For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."  Luke 11:9-13

    " And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.  If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it.  John 14:13-14

   " If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you."  John 15:7

     "On that day you will not question me about anything.  Amen, amen, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in my name he will give you.  Until now you have not asked anything in my name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete."  John 16:23-24 NAB 

BTW, your 5th quote even supports what I saidSmile

"Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Jesus triad)

"So the donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey" (The Donkey) Numbers Chapter 22:30


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Yes, contradictions.

Yes, contradictions. Sometimes they even mixed up Yahweh/Jesus with Satan. 

2 Samuel 24

24:1 "And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.24:2 For the king said to Joab the captain of the host, which was with him, Go now through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan even to Beersheba, and number ye the people, that I may know the number of the people."

VS

1 Chronicles 21

21:1 "And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.21:2 And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it."

 

"Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Jesus triad)

"So the donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey" (The Donkey) Numbers Chapter 22:30


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ATOMIC SKUNK wrote:

ATOMIC SKUNK wrote:
You only help point out the endless contradictions of these stories.

Only to someone who doesn't understand what the word is saying would call them contradictions. You are reading the gospels as if they are telling a linear story as if Jesus said what is written in the order written. I put Matthew 7 and you put Luke 11 which makes me think you didn't actually read what I wrote.

Dogma will give you the belief that you can achieve "faith" without God.

All the verses you put below only further illustrate your misunderstanding...

  • Matthew 21:21-22 - Jesus is displaying what the disiples can do if their faith was stronger. The reason that Jesus kills off the fig tree was a display of faith against an act against God.
  • Matthew 7:7-8 & Luke 11 - both of these are not possible unless God first gives you the ability to know him and then you can ask of him what is needed.
  • Matthew 18:19-20 - Jesus is giving instruction on correction of a brother that is doing wrong starting with verse 15. As the verses continue, Jesus' words become about fellowship.
  • Mark 11:24-25 - again, these verses speak of what you can do with the faith that you are given as a gift, not how to get it.
  • John 14:13-14 - I'm curious why you put this verse in your collection. John 14:5-14 is in support for what the definition of the "trinity", not about achieving faith

The rest of what you wrote is the same over and over. The point I'm making still has not changed - YOU have no ability to obtain faith on your own; only God can give you faith to seek him out and at that point the rest of the truth comes to you.

By the way, this thread was about the challenge, not so called contradictions.  

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote: ATOMIC

razorphreak wrote:

ATOMIC SKUNK wrote:
You only help point out the endless contradictions of these stories.

Only to someone who doesn't understand what the word is saying would call them contradictions. You are reading the gospels as if they are telling a linear story as if Jesus said what is written in the order written. I put Matthew 7 and you put Luke 11 which makes me think you didn't actually read what I wrote.

Dogma will give you the belief that you can achieve "faith" without God.

All the verses you put below only further illustrate your misunderstanding...

  • Matthew 21:21-22 - Jesus is displaying what the disiples can do if their faith was stronger. The reason that Jesus kills off the fig tree was a display of faith against an act against God.
  • Matthew 7:7-8 & Luke 11 - both of these are not possible unless God first gives you the ability to know him and then you can ask of him what is needed.
  • Matthew 18:19-20 - Jesus is giving instruction on correction of a brother that is doing wrong starting with verse 15. As the verses continue, Jesus' words become about fellowship.
  • Mark 11:24-25 - again, these verses speak of what you can do with the faith that you are given as a gift, not how to get it.
  • John 14:13-14 - I'm curious why you put this verse in your collection. John 14:5-14 is in support for what the definition of the "trinity", not about achieving faith

The rest of what you wrote is the same over and over. The point I'm making still has not changed - YOU have no ability to obtain faith on your own; only God can give you faith to seek him out and at that point the rest of the truth comes to you.

By the way, this thread was about the challenge, not so called contradictions.  

  

 

"You are reading the gospels as if they are telling a linear story as if Jesus said what is written in the order written."

 

Fuck the order, it implies no change to the spoken words, and don't pull the context crap either.Smile

 He says in plain KJV English " TO ANYONE WHO SEEKS OR ASKS"  No amount of apologetic bullfuck changes the words meaning here.

 

 

"Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Jesus triad)

"So the donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey" (The Donkey) Numbers Chapter 22:30


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BULLFUCK

BULLFUCKSmile


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ATOMIC SKUNK wrote: Fuck

ATOMIC SKUNK wrote:
Fuck the order, it implies no change to the spoken words, and don't pull the context crap either.Smile

He says in plain KJV English " TO ANYONE WHO SEEKS OR ASKS" No amount of apologetic bullfuck changes the words meaning here.

At'a boy, revert to using profanity to make your point...if it helps you ok.

The word from the bible does not say what you want it to say.  I will keep giving you the "context crap" because you keep using the verses incorrectly to make a point that doesn't exist in the context of the bible.

Next?

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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Sometimes colorful words,

Sometimes colorful words, are needed to put whats being described into proper perspective. Your apologetic defenses are obviously weak here, as you resort to denial of obvious meanings and intentions.

 

 "Next?"

 

 What do you think of the contradiction I posted?

"Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Jesus triad)

"So the donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey" (The Donkey) Numbers Chapter 22:30


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What does "Answers in

What does "Answers in Genesis", or  "The Apologetic Ministries" tell you about that one?

"Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Jesus triad)

"So the donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey" (The Donkey) Numbers Chapter 22:30


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It's stated so simply, that

It's stated so simply, that a caveman could understand the meaning of "EVERYONE".(cue Geico music)

"Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Jesus triad)

"So the donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey" (The Donkey) Numbers Chapter 22:30


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ATOMIC SKUNK

ATOMIC SKUNK wrote:
Sometimes colorful words, are needed to put whats being described into proper perspective.

No they aren't.  Those words are used when you don't have the ability to express yourself... 

ATOMIC SKUNK wrote:
Your apologetic defenses are obviously weak here, as you resort to denial of obvious meanings and intentions.

"Next?"

What do you think of the contradiction I posted?

I told you what I thought of your "contradiction" - you didn't read what I posted nor are you reading the full meaning of the bible.   I can't explain it any further to you if you are unwilling to read what is actually written...

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote: ATOMIC

razorphreak wrote:

ATOMIC SKUNK wrote:
Sometimes colorful words, are needed to put whats being described into proper perspective.

No they aren't.  Those words are used when you don't have the ability to express yourself... 

ATOMIC SKUNK wrote:
Your apologetic defenses are obviously weak here, as you resort to denial of obvious meanings and intentions.

"Next?"

What do you think of the contradiction I posted?

I told you what I thought of your "contradiction" - you didn't read what I posted nor are you reading the full meaning of the bible.   I can't explain it any further to you if you are unwilling to read what is actually written...

  

 

Was this your answer?

"Only to someone who doesn't understand what the word is saying would call them contradictions."

 

Laughing  So it's a misunderstanding on my part eh? Lets look again, shall we.......

2 Samuel 24

24:1 "And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.24:2 For the king said to Joab the captain of the host, which was with him, Go now through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan even to Beersheba, and number ye the people, that I may know the number of the people."

VS

1 Chronicles 21

21:1 "And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.21:2 And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it."

 

Here we have the same story being told. If you clear your brain of religious zeal, to avoid malfunction, it is plain to see TWO DIFFERENT entities causing "David" to take census.

 

The "LORD" moved David to number Israel "

"Satan" provoked David to number Israel"

What kind of twisted apologetic understanding am I missing hereLaughing

"Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Jesus triad)

"So the donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey" (The Donkey) Numbers Chapter 22:30


ATOMIC SKUNK
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Does anyone else here with a

Does anyone else here with a clear mind see this?


razorphreak
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Atomic,  How can I debate

Atomic,

 How can I debate with you if you aren't sticking to the same subject?  First this thread is about the challenge.  From there you manged to migrate it from abortion to free will of the spirit to a so called contradiction in AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT thread.  If you care to RE-READ what I posted I was talking about something else then you decided to bring up 2 Samuel vs. 1 Chronicles.  You managed to take me out of context of this discussion to suit your own need for attention I can only assume..why did you do that?

If you want to debate that go to the thread that talks about bible contradictions.   If you'd care to be open minded about talking about what this thread was about to begin with, the blasphemy challenge, then I'm waiting to discuss that. 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


Colby R
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BGH wrote: Quote: Often

BGH wrote:

Quote:
Often science says fact and it becomes sorta, inthe right conditions, well we think this is how it was so we assume this. I dont want to put my faith in that. I am not knocking all science but its fairly simple to see my point.

I understand there are new studies all the time with data and it can be confusing. But I must say, most people in thier daily lives accept science. As you said earlier you rely on x-rays, medicine, etc. Science is such a huge part of our daily lives we hardly notice it anymore, telecommunications, antibiotics, hygene, manufacturing, commuting, entertainment, computers... the list really goes on and on. Where the theist runs into problems accepting science is in instances when their faith intersects with it, i.e. the age of the earth or evolution. Then it becomes something not worth trusting.

 

Quote:
If I am wrong I havent lost anything and if I am right I have gained everything.

This is a form of Pascal's Wager , do a quick search on this argument and you will see it has been refuted over and over. Basically if you are wrong there are many things lost. What if you chose the wrong god? What if muslims are right? What if hindus are right? What if all the gods worshipped by the human race are wrong and it is something completely different?

But let's just say I am right and there is no god, what have you lost? I think you have lost a lot, you lost the time worshipping the non-existant and in this short life that seems costly. Also you have lost any money given to that particular denomination. From my viewpoint all this time and money could have been better used toward helping your fellow man or spent with your family. I have heard simular arguements on the RRS Show and I think this states what is the biggest loss of all.

Quote:
I would also ask if science has such great evidences and religion has none. Why are atheist's and non-believers in some sort of religion a vast minority in the world. I would say because religion does offer proof or evidence to its believers, in prayer.

This is an "ad populum" logical fallacy. Just because many numbers of people are followers does not make the belief valid. Hitler had many germans believing his propaganda, but it did not make the beliefs correct.

You seem to be here to engage in fair discussion which is good. Too many theists come here looking for fights.

I have a suggestion look around this site some more, read the essays, watch the videos, check out infidels.org, look into the sciences more, read everything you can on the subject with an open mind. If you still choose to believe it will be a well informed decision.

Alright now for the rest of the stuff. Pascals wager, I am familiar with it and I was using the statement in regards to our situation. If another god was the true god then I would be hosed. I did also say that the point was not to be right or to save yourself from hell. It is about the relationship with God wiith Christ. I believe that if you only accept Christ to save yourself then you havent gained anything but false hope.

Now for my supposed "ad populum". I never said that I was right because the numbers support it. I said that peoples faith does offer them evidence or proof , and that is why people believe. My question was if Science offers such great evidiences then why do people hold to their faith in God. I say that evidence is offered in faith or religion, in answered prayer and the in dwelling of the Holy Spirit. This is not accepted proof to you, but it is ver real to those who believe.

Now to answer your oter question, about would I do the same things if I wasnt a believer. I dont know, I became a Christian when I was 16 and couldnt say what I would have done if I hadnt. I would ask who does more charity work than those associated with religious groups and would those companies exist if their were no religion. One of the main aspects of Christianity is charity and helping those less fotunate, that doesnt seem to be the standard the rest of the worls lives by.


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razorphreak

razorphreak wrote:

Atomic,

 How can I debate with you if you aren't sticking to the same subject?  First this thread is about the challenge.  From there you manged to migrate it from abortion to free will of the spirit to a so called contradiction in AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT thread.  If you care to RE-READ what I posted I was talking about something else then you decided to bring up 2 Samuel vs. 1 Chronicles.  You managed to take me out of context of this discussion to suit your own need for attention I can only assume..why did you do that?

If you want to debate that go to the thread that talks about bible contradictions.   If you'd care to be open minded about talking about what this thread was about to begin with, the blasphemy challenge, then I'm waiting to discuss that. 

 

 

 "How can I debate with you if you aren't sticking to the same subject?  First this thread is about the challenge.  From there you manged to migrate it from abortion to free will of the spirit to a so called contradiction in AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT thread."

 

Discussions change directions, and various points are addressed, pay attention. I answer questions I'm asked. 

 

"You managed to take me out of context of this discussion to suit your own need for attention I can only assume..why did you do that?" 

 

The context bullshit eh?Laughing You claimed contradictions were bull, so I called you on it. You then proceeded to say "Next", thinking you had justified your weak claims. Then I again mentioned this contradiction, that has no apologetic answer. I'll leave you alone now, until you make another bullshit claim, regardless of the thread topic. 

 

"Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Jesus triad)

"So the donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey" (The Donkey) Numbers Chapter 22:30


razorphreak
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ATOMIC SKUNK

ATOMIC SKUNK wrote:
Discussions change directions, and various points are addressed, pay attention. I answer questions I'm asked.

And YOU took it in a different direction for no reason.  My "next" was not in reference to your old testament contradiction claim, it was to the other point in the conversation which you didn't even keep track of.  You stopped talking about what I was and brought up a contradiction like if forced to by some key word... 

The rest of what you wrote, well, I'm hoping you'll figure out what specific threads are for and keep the discussion under a specific subject.   When you come back I hope it's with something intelligent regarding the blasphemy challenge.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


ATOMIC SKUNK
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razorphreak wrote:ATOMIC

razorphreak wrote:

ATOMIC SKUNK wrote:
Discussions change directions, and various points are addressed, pay attention. I answer questions I'm asked.

And YOU took it in a different direction for no reason.  My "next" was not in reference to your old testament contradiction claim, it was to the other point in the conversation which you didn't even keep track of.  You stopped talking about what I was and brought up a contradiction like if forced to by some key word... 

The rest of what you wrote, well, I'm hoping you'll figure out what specific threads are for and keep the discussion under a specific subject.   When you come back I hope it's with something intelligent regarding the blasphemy challenge.

   

 "And YOU took it in a different direction for no reason."

No reason eh?Laughing  Like I said, you need to pay attention, or quit making up bullshit excuses. I went back and looked at it.

Someone said....

"If that was the case why wouldnt Christians agree with abortion?"

I repliedSmile

Someone asked....

"I'm curious about this stat, can you please provide me with the information?"

I gave the statsSmile

 Razorphreak introduces god is unknown to everybody......

"If you were not meant to understand Cisco routers or how to cook then you were not meant to understand it. In the same way, some people were not meant to understand the "magic" that is God and God's works. Only God can give you the ability to understand and if it is not his will to do so, then it's why you would easily dismiss it as nonsense"

I repliedSmile

Razorphreak continues his point.........

"It is dogma that hides the true meaning of these words to make people think they can achieve salvation though works or actions. Because we do not choose to believe, and one else can either, not all will understand the words or accept them...and that is what was meant to happen. Only God can reveal himself to you; there is nothing you can do to find him unless he wants you to. It is however possible to lose him once found..."

I repliedSmile 

Razorphreak debates my contradiction response..

"Only to someone who doesn't understand what the word is saying would call them contradictions"

I repliedSmile, with a ridiculous bible contradiction.

 

If you clear you mind of religious zeal, it will help your malfunction.

"Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children." (Jesus triad)

"So the donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your donkey" (The Donkey) Numbers Chapter 22:30


ShadowOfMan
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Quote: ShadowOfMan

Quote:
ShadowOfMan wrote:
The point is, the bible says that you will be eternally damned. You may not see it that way, but you do not speak for all Christians. Do you? The bible is all about interpretation. We interpret Mark 3-29 to mean that....He that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation. That's how I interpret it. You interpret it by ignoring the script altogether.

 

Ummm what? Tell me have you read Mark 3:28 and Mark 3:30 in addition to verse 29?? It's not me speaking to the true meaning of WHY you are dammed...and it's not interpretation either. The words are there in black and white and you are ignoring them....so how did I ignore it?

All I'm saying is that there are many different interpretations of the scripture.  Some Christians may believe that, "..all sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme." (MARK 3:28)  That seems to be you razorphreak.  Still other Christians may believe, "But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit is shit out of luck"  (MARK 3:29), because the blasphemer has an unclean spirit. (MARK 3:30)

I never ignored 3:29 at all.  And you still don't get my point about science.  Say it with me:  Science is a method of observation,  a method that hasn't changed much. the evidence of the truth has changed.  The fact that the earth orbits the sun is not science.  Science is a method by which we can observe events like the earths orbit around the sun. 

A daughter of hope and fear, religion explains to Ignorance the nature of the unknowable. -Ambrose Bierce


razorphreak
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ShadowOfMan wrote:

ShadowOfMan wrote:
All I'm saying is that there are many different interpretations of the scripture. Some Christians may believe that, "..all sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme." (MARK 3:28) That seems to be you razorphreak. Still other Christians may believe, "But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit is shit out of luck" (MARK 3:29), because the blasphemer has an unclean spirit. (MARK 3:30)

Shadow,

While there might be many interpretations there is only one right one. I personally am not taking one verse and running with it; I'm saying that one must take ALL related verses to understand the fullness of what Mark 3:29 refers. This was NOT done in the challenge and sadly it is not done in many of the debates regarding bible references here.

In case you are wondering, the FULL related passage is Mark 3:20-30. You could even use just Mark 3:28-30 and get a better idea as to what the meaning of verse 29 is ACTUALLY referring to. As I said, denying the existance of the holy spirit is not the unforgivable sin and it never will be.

Mark 3:28-30 I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." He said this because they were saying, "He has an evil spirit."

You can't keep breaking this up...doing so only creates different meanings when there is only one when taken in full context.  Hell verse 30 tells you WHY he said what he said which means that if you want to know what they said in full, you've gotta go back a few verses (to verse 20 to be specific) to understand the full conversation and events that lead up to verse 29.  This is the problem that I have with the challenge in that this was never done.

ShadowOfMan wrote:
I never ignored 3:29 at all. And you still don't get my point about science. Say it with me: Science is a method of observation, a method that hasn't changed much. the evidence of the truth has changed. The fact that the earth orbits the sun is not science. Science is a method by which we can observe events like the earths orbit around the sun.

I didn't say you ignored 3:29. I said you along with others have ignored all other verses that complete the story in which is told under 3:29.

Regarding science, I know it's a method of observation but it also includes conclusions. The science behind the law of gravity includes the conclusions that "what goes up must come down." The science of observation that explained that T-Rex was a predator observed because it had big teeth, it must have hunted. That observation and conclusion were later challenged and now the scientific community regarding T-Rex is changing its stance to label the dino as a scavenger.


Atomic,

Quote:
Razorphreak debates my contradiction response..

This is what's driving me nuts with you. I DIDN'T respond regarding contradictions that you posted in those numerous verses - I replied trying to explain to you that you used them out of context to our discussion. Then you continued with your totally unrelated old testament "contradiction" to take the thread into contradiction land when I did no such thing. You misread and now you are trying to not admit that you were wrong.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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Colby R wrote: Alright now

Colby R wrote:

Alright now for the rest of the stuff. Pascals wager, I am familiar with it and I was using the statement in regards to our situation. If another god was the true god then I would be hosed. I did also say that the point was not to be right or to save yourself from hell. It is about the relationship with God wiith Christ. I believe that if you only accept Christ to save yourself then you havent gained anything but false hope.

Now for my supposed "ad populum". I never said that I was right because the numbers support it. I said that peoples faith does offer them evidence or proof , and that is why people believe. My question was if Science offers such great evidiences then why do people hold to their faith in God. I say that evidence is offered in faith or religion, in answered prayer and the in dwelling of the Holy Spirit. This is not accepted proof to you, but it is ver real to those who believe.

Now to answer your oter question, about would I do the same things if I wasnt a believer. I dont know, I became a Christian when I was 16 and couldnt say what I would have done if I hadnt. I would ask who does more charity work than those associated with religious groups and would those companies exist if their were no religion. One of the main aspects of Christianity is charity and helping those less fotunate, that doesnt seem to be the standard the rest of the worls lives by.

 

You are very admirable for being honest. You really seem to be one of the more rational theists I have encountered on the forums. Thank you for the honest answers and I think that is what most of us are looking for on here.

 

We have different opinions what constitutes evidence but that is okay, as long as we can speak about these things and enjoy thorough discourse.

 

As far as charitable organizations I am sure the numbers are up there for religious groups. I must say the sheer number of churches and massive number of christians it would logically follow, they would hold the majority for organizations. I think there is one charity that is growing rapidly and I am not sure where it ranks in the top 25, but that would the Gates foundation. The has been a major influx of money and they are helping vast numbers of people.

 

Again, thanks for being honest.

 


BenfromCanada
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This is why I specifically

This is why I specifically called the holy spirit a devil in my blasphemy challenge video.