Funny Stuff

Broncosfan
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Funny Stuff

Although I'm a theist / Catholic, I've NEVER been angered by anything I've read on this site. In fact, it's usually just the opposite - much of the time, I'll have a good chuckle re many of the posts - i.e. belief in God is a form of mental illness (if only mankind could be as "mentally ill" as Mother Theresa) or disappointment in a political candidate i.e. Barrack Obama because he expresses a deep belief / faith in God / Christ and therefore you're not going to vote for him - pretty naive stuff in my opinion.

 

But let me throw out the real conclusion I've reached in the time I've been reading some of these posts.

Other than the fact that you have different beliefs, I don't see alot of difference between many of you - particularily those of you who have posted hundreds - if not thousands of posts (do you frequent posters ever actually get out and do things or do you just sit in front of a computer all day posting messages on websites..??) and fundamentalists, for example. You're both cut from the exact same "fanatical" cloth.

As mentioned, I'm a Catholic - my wife is a physician / general practitioner and an athiest as well. It's not a problem - we both have our beliefs and neither one of us tries to "impose" our beliefs on the other.

But my wife, for example, would never dream of wearing a silly t-shirt expressing her atheist views no more than I would wear a t-shirt expressing my views. Nor would she stand in front of a church and deny the existence of God no more than I would stand in front of a humanist bldg and read scriptures.

These are activities for "kids" and extremists..!!

These are activities for the fringe extremeists at both ends of the spectrum - and there's no denying that many of you are as just as "nutty" and just as "rigid" in your beliefs as the fundies you condemn so frequently

 

 


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Broncosfan wrote: Other

Broncosfan wrote:
Other than the fact that you have different beliefs, I don't see alot of difference between many of you ... and fundamentalists, for example. You're both cut from the exact same "fanatical" cloth.

I'm sorry you don't see the difference, but you not seeing it does not mean it's not there. I see it clearly. You see a stereotype. The difference I see (aside from beliefs, I guess leaving behaviour to be discussed) is that we arrive at our beliefs in a fundamentally different way. We play the game of life differently.

Quote:
we both have our beliefs and neither one of us tries to "impose" our beliefs on the other.

Nobody here is trying to impose our beliefs on anyone. Instead, we present rational arguments in an attempt to influence people to change their minds of their own free will. Are you trying to impose your beliefs by coming on this board and posting this message? If not, then neither are we. 

Quote:
But my wife, for example, would never dream of wearing a silly t-shirt expressing her atheist views no more than I would wear a t-shirt expressing my views.

Do you wear a crucifix or other Christian symbol? Do you pray in public ever?

Quote:
These are activities for "kids" and extremists..!!

So all activists are extremists? I think you're a little extreme there in your anti-activist activism. What would be a non-extreme way to stand up for our rights and excercise our freedom of speech? Cuz frankly, going with the status quo is leading this world to disaster.

Quote:
These are activities for the fringe extremeists at both ends of the spectrum - and there's no denying that many of you are as just as "nutty" and just as "rigid" in your beliefs as the fundies you condemn so frequently.

I deny it. When's the last time you heard of a skeptic/free-thinker fly a plane into a building or start/support a huge war on zero reliable evidence?

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How do you keep your

How do you keep your religious views out of things while holding the belief that your wife is going to be damned for all eternity? This seems like a hilariously sadistic relationship.


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Broncosfan, If one doesn't

Broncosfan,

If one doesn't look to closely at religion it's absurdities are usually not apparent, same for Mother Theresa. Have a look at what someone discovered that saw it from the inside:

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/shields_18_1.html 

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca


Broncosfan
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You have no idea what my

You have no idea what my relationship is like with my wife so why would you even bother to offer up an opinion about something that you have no clue about..??

And how do you know that I hold the opinion that she's going to be damned for all eternity.?? You don't know me or have any idea what my opinions / views are - you're making observations and coming to conclusions based on what - on my one post that I've written..??

 Or you're assuming that because I'm a catholic that I automatically adhere to EVERYTHING the Catholic church believes in.??

And you're rational and a free thinker..??

I don't think so - not even close..!!

You really are just flailing away with "child-like" comments / observations in the hope that you might actually stumble across a grain of truth, aren't you..??


Broncosfan
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"We play the game of life

"We play the game of life differently".

How..??

By posting silly little videos on YOUTUBE ..??

Or wearing silly little T-shirts proclaiming that you're atheists..??

Or spending countless hours in front of a computer posting hundreds / thousands of messages on this and other bulletin boards..??

You're right - you do play the game of life alot differently than people like myself - or my wife - or my children - or my friends / work associates.

 

Let me enlighten you about something - there have been and are alot of very, very bright people who think that the idea of an omnipotent God is alot of superstitious poppycock.

However, there are alot of equally bright people - then and now - who believe that there is a God / higher power.

We're talking about very bright and very educated people on both sides of the issue - intelligent people who have arrived at their beliefs after alot of careful analysis and thought.

The frequent posters here can try and rationalize things all you want and scream at the top of your lungs that you're free and rational thinkers, but you have alot more in common with the 'fundies" than you realize.

I don't think the very intelligent people of faith and the very intelligent people who don't believe feel that compelled to shout their beliefs at th etop of their lungs from the rooftops.

Personally, I think it's the not-so-bright people who feel the need to proclaim their beliefs so vocally and in an "in-your-face" manner.

I've met my share of "fundies" over the years and from what I've seen and read of Sapient, for example, he has alot in common with him.


Broncosfan
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Incredible.In a time when

Incredible.

In a time when you have countless 24 / 7 news agencies and an internet that connects the world, do you not think the if Mother Theresa was nothing more than a faker / imposter, she would have been exposed as one before now by somebody credible somewhere..??!! And

But we're all supposed to believe that a woman who was revered around the world as a tireless advocate for the poor and a model for Christian charity in the modern world is nothing more an "imposter" on the strength of an article by one person..??!!

And you claim to be a free and rational thinker..??

In my opinion, you're not even close ..!!


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Broncosfan wrote: (if only

Broncosfan wrote:
(if only mankind could be as "mentally ill" as Mother Theresa)
If only Mother Theresa had helped people to get out of their poverty by teaching birth control to impoverished people with health problems, she could have done a lot more good.
Broncosfan wrote:
(do you frequent posters ever actually get out and do things or do you just sit in front of a computer all day posting messages on websites..??)
I don't know about you, but I have a Day Job in I.T. that takes much more than 40 hours a week, I volunteer, I work with Beyond Belief Media, I take care of my critters (quite well, I might add) and still find time to go to the theater and have dinner or coffee with friends.
Broncosfan wrote:
and there's no denying that many of you are as just as "nutty" and just as "rigid" in your beliefs as the fundies you condemn so frequently
It wouldn't be necessary for us to become vocal and be activists if religion was kept inside churches.

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Broncosfan wrote: Although

Broncosfan wrote:
Although I'm a theist / Catholic, I've NEVER been angered by anything I've read on this site. In fact, it's usually just the opposite - much of the time, I'll have a good chuckle re many of the posts - i.e. belief in God is a form of mental illness (if only mankind could be as "mentally ill" as Mother Theresa) or disappointment in a political candidate  i.e. Barrack Obama because he expresses a deep belief / faith in God / Christ and therefore you're not going to vote for him - pretty naive stuff in my opinion.

Most of which doesn't cover me, so we're good. Smiling

Broncosfan wrote:

But let me throw out the real conclusion I've reached in the time I've been reading some of these posts. Other than the fact that you  have different beliefs, I don't see alot of difference between many of you - particularily those of you who have posted hundreds - if not thousands of posts (do you frequent posters ever actually get out and do things or do you just sit in front of a computer all day posting messages on websites..??)

Certainly. Interesting that you're only the second person to ask this question, and the first didn't have the balls to post it publicly(he sent me a PM and then never responded to my response). But I digress. In fact, at least 99% of my posts on this site have been done while I'm at work. I'm getting paid by the hour while I post here, and go home to play games, hang out, and do that which most people tend to do when not at work. And before you ask, no. This is not interfering with my job. I just happen to have a fair amount of time that isn't taken up by my duties while I'm at work most of the time. A look at my posting history will show that I tend to answer posts during a 7 day period, followed by 3-5 days of no posts at all. Eye-wink

Broncosfan wrote:

and fundamentalists, for example. You're both cut from the exact same "fanatical" cloth.

Obviously not. Eye-wink

Broncosfan wrote:
As mentioned, I'm a Catholic - my wife is a physician / general practitioner and an athiest as well. It's not a problem - we both have our beliefs and neither one of us tries to "impose" our beliefs on the other.

I congratulate both of you. I don't think the beliefs are generally compatible for a relationship. That you have persevered through it is a compliment to both of you.

Broncosfan wrote:
But my wife, for example, would never dream of wearing a silly t-shirt expressing her atheist views no more than I would wear a t-shirt expressing my views.

Me either actually. In fact, I don't like wearing logos of any kind, with one exception of course:

Broncosfan wrote:

Nor would she stand in front of a church and deny the existence of God no more than I would stand in front of a humanist bldg and read scriptures.

Same goes again.

Broncosfan wrote:
These are activities for "kids" and extremists..!!

That's a bit of an extreme pronouncement. I have to disagree with you on this point. I suggest you look up the definition of the term "extremist", before throwing it around so loosley.

Broncosfan wrote:

These are activities for the fringe extremeists at both ends of the spectrum - and there's no denying that many of you are as just as "nutty"  and just as "rigid" in your beliefs as the fundies you condemn so frequently

Perhaps. That doesn't subtract from the overall good of the mission in the first place however.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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But my wife, for example,

But my wife, for example, would never dream of wearing a silly t-shirt expressing her atheist views no more than I would wear a t-shirt expressing my views. Nor would she stand in front of a church and deny the existence of God no more than I would stand in front of a humanist bldg and read scriptures.

Overgeneralization. Why would I wear an atheist t-shirt? Where I live, no-one cares about religion, I live in one of the world's most secular cities (Hong Kong). Religious nonsense is laughed at here. I am against religion because in the greater context, it is a force of evil.

 These are activities for "kids" and extremists..!!

Meanwhile, it is perfectly OK for Christians to proselytize online, televangilists to whore lots of money, it's ok to spread lies and misinformation about evolution and it's ok that 20% of the United States believes the Sun goes round the Earth and the Earth was created after the sumerians learned to brew beer.

 These are activities for the fringe extremeists at both ends of the spectrum - and there's no denying that many of you are as just as "nutty"  and just as "rigid" in your beliefs as the fundies you condemn so frequently

I don't follow. Fundamentalists are called so because they dogmatically adhere to religious texts literally despite evidence. Please explain how requiring reason, science and evidence for veiwpoints (what atheists believe) is identical to religious fundamentalists. 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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Broncosfan
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Susan:"If only Mother

Susan:

"If only Mother Theresa had helped people to get out of their poverty by teaching birth control to impoverished people with health problems, she could have done a lot more good."

The "if" game is an easy game to play - it's usually the sanctuary of somebody not terribly confident about their arguments.

"Well, IF only Bill Gates had given $20 billion for AIDS research instead of $10 billion, we might have found a cure for AIDS and people in Africa wouldn't be dying."

"IF only the researchers who have been working for 80 hours a week for the past 20 years at XYZ hospital trying to find a cure for cancer had worked 90 hours a week instead, we might have a cure for cancer today and people wouldn't be dying".

"It wouldn't be necessary for us to become vocal and be activists if religion was kept inside churches."

And the "fundies" would say "it wouldn't be necessary for us to feel compelled to try and convert the world if we didn't live in a Godless / promiscuous society.

 

Susan, if religion was kept in the church, you'd have the fringe elements complaining about the movie King of Kings or the Passion Of The Christ being shown on television and "polluting" the minds of our children.

Or complaining about the "religious symbolism" associated with certain holidays i.e. Christmas and Easter, for example.

 

The fringe element / extremists NEVER have a problem justifying their actions. For extremists / activists, there is no issue that is to small or too petty.

 They can always come up with a reason - regardless of how lame it is..!!


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Broncosfan

Broncosfan wrote:

[...] 

These are activities for the fringe extremeists at both ends of the spectrum - and there's no denying that many of you are as just as "nutty" and just as "rigid" in your beliefs as the fundies you condemn so frequently

 

Although I found the latter part of your post somewhat unreasonable and ad hominem, because you do not consider the social context in which this atheist movement has arised. I do agree on your final comment.

 

Let's just assume that I only have read that you are somesort of enlightened Catholic who agrees that faith is not knowledge proper and therefor formally irrational, yet reason constraints your faith in someways which enables you to have an evenso reasonable relationship with your atheist wife.

My conclusion would be that you would be the most intelligible person in understanding both ends and above all understand the subtleties of both atheist radicals and theist radicals. Since you show yourself as the reasonable middleground of how theist and atheist can coexist in a peacefull and reasonable manner.

 

Yet instead you let yourself be seduced to make derogatory comments which show no empathy whatsoever for the precarious situation atheist in the US find themselves in. So although you have created a proper consensus  with your wife, you fail to see that life beyond your own is not as reasonable and rational as you see your own.

Either you are way ahead of us, or you just arrived at a soothing status quo with your wife without even reflecting on the meaning and content of that situation.

 

So please adjust your tone to a more respectful and reasonable one, otherwise you would contradict yourself. 


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"social context in which

"social context in which this atheist movement has arised" 

There have been believers and non-believers for hundreds of years - what is so "special" about being a non-believer in the year 2007, for example, that differed from being a non-believer in the year 1931 - or 1868. What is this social context you're referring to..??

 "no empathy whatsoever for the precarious situation atheist in the US find themselves in."

Again, I'm completely in the dark about your comment "precarious situation".

I can recall attending various social and family functions with my wife when the film "The Passion of The Christ" was in the theaters and getting into discussions with friends / family / work associates about the movie.  

I would mention that I'm a Catholic and from my perspective, blah-blah-blah. My wife is a woman of science - a physician - and she would readily admit that from an atheist's perspective, blah-blah-blah. 

What is this "precarious position" you refer to..??


Broncosfan
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DeludedGod:   In reading

DeludedGod:

 

In reading your response,it's pretty evident that you've missed my point.

"Meanwhile, it is perfectly OK for Christians to proselytize online, televangilists to whore lots of money, it's ok to spread lies and misinformation about evolution and it's ok that 20% of the United States believes the Sun goes round the Earth and the Earth was created after the sumerians learned to brew beer."

 

No - it's not ok for all of the above. This is the point I was trying to make. 

There are Christians who espouse these nonsensical opinions as if they were "etched in stone" facts.

 

These people are "cuukoo birds".

 

But at the other end of the spectrum, you have atheists on web sites like this espousing opinions that theists are nothing more than brainwashed sheep and suffering from a mental illness.

 These people are also "cuukoo birds". 

They're just as "nutty" as the fundies - the ONLY difference is that that they happen to believe in different things.

 

And then you have people like myself who couldn't care less that atheists DON'T believe in God.

 Or people like my wife who couldn't care less that Catholics DO believe in God. 

My original post simply stated that after reading many of the posts over the last few weeks, I don't see alot of difference between the silly rantings of the 'fundies" versus the silly rantings of the "hard-core activist atheists."

 

 

 

 


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Broncosfan wrote: (if only

Broncosfan wrote:
(if only mankind could be as "mentally ill" as Mother Theresa

All this world needs is more people like Mother Teresa.


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Broncosfan wrote: What is

Broncosfan wrote:

What is this "precarious position" you refer to..??

 

I am referring to atheists primarily in the US; and with "precarious position" I refer to the fact that there is a common taboo on atheism. There is in many ways a Christian or theist bias in the political process, which undermines the very core of a liberal democratic society.

 

I am however not an US resident, therefor I must be cautious in claiming such things. I am informed by people I meet on the internet and the Dutch media. (Recently there was a documentary on the tremendous influence religon has in the US)

If the things I hear and see are true than I must conclude that the US is an under-developed country in respect to secularity and democratic freedoms, which is somewhat paradoxal since the US is often seen as the frontrunner in the "posse" of Western democracies.

 

 

 


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For somebody who couldn't

For somebody who couldn't care less about us, you certainly are putting a lot of effort into talking with us. 

I'd bet that you do care, otherwise you would not be here.  

I look at it this way; I love philosophy.  I love the persuit of wisdom, truth, and understanding.  The existence of a god is a question with some importance.  Now, while you may not be bothered too much by people that disagree with you, the question itself has importance for individuals, and our reasoning on the matter should be sound, researched, and defensible.  

  It's good that you and your wife can live together without your difference of opinion not causing problems.  But not agreeing with everything the Catholic Church does imply that you are not a Catholic--you are still a theist, however, just not the Catholic one, according to the rules of the club in question.  And being a Catholic implies that Hell is what a person who does not believe in God is probably awaiting, at least according to the Church.  It's their rules, not mine.

The difference between myself and a fundamentalist Christian is that I don't accept the propositions in an old book based on faith; in short, I don't have faith in things.  My worldview is (hopefully) based upon rational considerations of issues.  I can defend my beliefs, but fundies (for the most part) cannot.  And even the ones who can simply end up saying that they realize they are irrational, and are ok with that.  I have no argument with them.

Shaun 

I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.


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Broncosfan

Broncosfan wrote:

Susan:

"If only Mother Theresa had helped people to get out of their poverty by teaching birth control to impoverished people with health problems, she could have done a lot more good."

The "if" game is an easy game to play - it's usually the sanctuary of somebody not terribly confident about their arguments.

No, I'm pretty darned confident of what I said.  Silly me for attempting to say it tactfully and gracefully.

 Let me rephrase so there's no question as to what I am saying.

Mother Theresa was terribly misguided in how she ministered to those in India.  She allowed poverty to  remain when she should have been teaching birth control and ways for those people to overcome their horrible living conditions.  Her religion was definitely a drawback when it came to truly helping the people.


Broncosfan wrote:
Susan, if religion was kept in the church, you'd have the fringe elements complaining about the movie King of Kings or the Passion Of The Christ being shown on television and "polluting" the minds of our children.

Or complaining about the "religious symbolism" associated with certain holidays i.e. Christmas and Easter, for example.

Untrue.  King of Kings or (especially) The Passion of the Christ wouldn't be shown on television.  They would be shown in the churches which chose to show them.  I said "Keep religion INSIDE the church".  I didn't say "Keep some religion inside the church." 

That statement includes religious holidays. 

I do not believe I was unclear with my statement.

 


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I have to agree with the OP:

I have to agree with the OP: the t-shirts are silly.


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Where do you draw the line,

Where do you draw the line, Susan..??

What other movies, for example, should be "banned" from televison because of religious references..??

 How about bibles or books that contain some religious / christian themes - perhaps they, too, should be banned from libraries - perhaps they should ONLY be available in churches too..??

How about songs that contain references to Jesus - Christmas carols, for example - perhaps they should be banned from radios at Christmas  and Christmas CDs should ONLY be sold in churches..??

Where do you draw the line, Susan..?? 

If you've never done so before, you really should check out a fundie bulletin board sometime. 

You'll very quickly see the same fervour to become "activists"- the same passion to want to change the world - the same concerns about the "threat" the other side is - the same comments about restricting/ banning certain books / movies / etc.  - the same inability to differentiate between facts and opinions - scoffing at the other side and putting them down to bolster your own opinions - etc etc etc.

Don't kid yourself - you and many of the posters here have far more in common with the fundies than you think..!!


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Shaun: It's a very minor

Shaun:  

Your post is probably as good an example of why I get a good chuckle at some of the posts / comments I read here.

 

Let me give you an example.

 

In your first sentence, you state: 

"For somebody who couldn't care less about us, you certainly are putting a lot of effort into talking with us." 

Firstly, I've NEVER stated that I cou;dn't care less about you.

I said I couldn't care less that you don't believe in God.

There's a difference about not caring for the person vs not caring for their ideas..!!  

But do you see how you twist words to try and make a point..??.

 Secondly, I've posted about a dozen messages in 4+ weeks - something that's taken about 20 minutes of my time and you consider that alot of effort..???!!!

Shaun, I've sat at a keyboard for 20 minutes in four weeks typing..???!!   

Believe me - that's not alot of effort.

In your first sentence, you make two points - and you're completely off the mark on both of them..!!! 

Like I said - funny stuff..!!

But the real capper is the comment that if you don't believe ALL of the pronouncements of the Catholic Church, then you're not a Catholic.

Shaun,  I'm going to publicy challenge you here - the official Cathecism of my Church is probably online.

 Point me to a credible link from the Cathecism that actually states if you don't believe in ALL of the doctrines of the Catholic church, then you're not a Catholic.

I really want to see this..!!!


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Broncosfan, here is the

Broncosfan, here is the issue.

I don't care if people believe in God. I think it is irrational, but humans are not really rational creatures, so it is not my business. I feel strongly about it because:

-Religion is postulated as some kind of medium through which to understand God, which is ridiculous. A clear throwback to a past when religion was used to keep an iron grip on teh masses. If God is omnipotent, do you truly think this God will care if you go to church? How do you know God wants you to worship it? If people worship God, that is fine. But people raised billion dollar institutions on nothing at all. Obviously, the churches of the renessaince and the Islamic architecture in Spain is beautiful, and I love architecture. But when it gets to the point where the Belvedere Hall has a gold leaf that could fund a year of cancer research, where religion gets tax-exempt status, where we have "faith-based initiatives", where churches compete like gas stations, then we have a problem.

 

-The dogma. I don't care if people worship God, but I do care that it comes packaged as unquestioned dogma. I am against any dogma, be it religious or atheistic (like the communists). This leads to a mindset held by huge numbers of faithful. For instance "my god is better than yours" or "that gives me the right to kill you" or (in Islamic countries) "if you blaspheme the Quran, we will burn you alive". Dogma is dangerous.

Religious Toe-stepping on science. Mostly an issue in the United States only. Doesnt really exist anywhere else. Fix this and I will be very happy.

-Sheilded from discourse. We are not allowed to criticize religion because "we are disrespecting someone else's sacred beliefs". Bullshit. Religion should be subject to the same ruthless critique as anything else. We cannot have lower standards of evidence for just one aspect of society. 

-The mythology. If religion was just about believing in God, that would be fine. But in addition to the domga, it comes packaged in obvious mythology. The trinity? Made up in 400AD. The ascension of St Mary? Made up same time. Vast amounts of religion, Muhammed flying to heaven on his winged horse, A body surviving rigor mortis for three days, are clearly mythology which people accept as true for no apparent reason. this is interesting.  n terms of evidence, there is no difference between the beliefs that Thor and his hammer rules the sky, and that Yahweh is watching over us, or Allah. Yet no-one believes in Thor and his hammer. Some religious beliefs "die" while others do not, "Die" in the sense that everyone accepts them as mythology what I am trying to say now is not whether mono or poly came first, that is not the issue at hand. The issue is: why do people believe in religion? Religion is ridiculous. It is clearly mythology. Stories of Muhammed flying to heaven on his winged horse, or a body surviving rigor mortis for three days, are clearly conjured up. The transevolution of the monotheistic religions is obvious. Islam comes from Christianity comes from Judaism. So my question is, why do certain religious beliefs survive in the memeplex, while others die? Why has Thor with his hammer a fun story that Icelandic children gather round and listen to, while the belief that a guy got nailed to a cross and went to heaven a beleif that people bomb abortion clinics for?

 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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Broncosfan wrote:There are

Broncosfan wrote:
There are Christians who espouse these nonsensical opinions as if they were "etched in stone" facts.

These people are "cuukoo birds".

Yes, they are cuckoo birds. But a sizable chunk of US citizens agree with these cuckoo birds. Some of these cuckoo birds have considerable power in the US.

I'm curious. Have you ever spent much time in the Southern or Midwestern US?

Broncosfan wrote:
But at the other end of the spectrum, you have atheists on web sites like this espousing opinions that theists are nothing more than brainwashed sheep and suffering from a mental illness.

These people are also "cuukoo birds".

Many fundamentalist probably haven't been brainwashed, but they've been indoctrinated and kept ignorant. They are sheep. Even Jesus refers to his followers as sheep. And sheep are stupid.

Notice the banner at the top says they suffer from a mind disorder. This is different than a mental illness. There are forms of various religions that can be called a mind disorder, e.g. Fred Phelps and his group.

If we're cuckoo birds for pointing out these facts, then we need more cuckoo birds.


Broncosfan, you are obviously a tolerant person. I think you have more of a responsibility than atheist do in minimizing the more pathological forms of religion. The world needs more people like you. (This is especially true in Muslim countries.)

But the moderate/liberal theist seem to let the fundamentalist have free reign, and when we atheist call bullshit on them you guys get all defensive calling us radicals.

Why aren't you more active in curbing the abuses of religion?


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Broncosfan wrote: How

Broncosfan wrote:

How about songs that contain references to Jesus - Christmas carols, for example - perhaps they should be banned from radios at Christmas and Christmas CDs should ONLY be sold in churches..??

Yes.  

Broncosfan wrote:
the same concerns about the "threat" the other side is -

I don't know that I'd use the word "threat" unless you're talking about the threat of a theistic government (but that's a whole different topic that doesn't belong here). 

The fact that religion (and in the U.S. that would be xianity) has permeated so much of our daily lives and there are so many in-your-face theists attempting to force their religion on everyone else is, at the very least, rude and annoying.  Ever get that knock on the door on Saturday morning from the Jehovah's Witnesses?  Ever get bible verses left on your desk from the theist in the next cube?

I was simply saying that it would be just dandy for all the theists to be as theistic as they like as long as it stayed in their church and didn't infringe on anyone else.  (We all know that isn't going to happen as long as they're determined to save our non-existent souls.)

Broncosfan wrote:
the same inability to differentiate between facts and opinions

I beg your pardon?!?  Where was I unable to differentiate between fact and opinion? 

Broncosfan wrote:
scoffing at the other side

Yes, there has ben scoffing here, but if you've read some of the silliness posted by theists, sometimes it's deserved.

Broncosfan wrote:
and putting them down to bolster your own opinions.

Usually you'll see comments like "Please provide evidence" or "Please back up your argument."  I would suspect that what you interpret as putting someone down is when evidence is not supplied or is very weak and subsequetly the lack of evidence is dramatically pointed out.  That, in itself, bolsters opinions because they have not been refuted.

 

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Susan: "I beg your

Susan:

"I beg your pardon?!?  Where was I unable to differentiate between fact and opinion? "

 

When I was presenting the litanny of similarities, I wasn't  saying that you - Susan - was "quilty" of ALL of the charges.

I was using YOU in the collective sense.

It's funny, but my wife came down last night when I was posting and she asked what I was doing. And I explained to her that I was exchanging some opinions with free / rational thinkers.

I specifically mentioned your comment about King of Kings / Passion of The Christ should only be shown in churches. 

Although she's an atheist as I've repeatedly mentioned, she just rolled her eyes and made some comment "doesn't she own a televison converter that can turn the tv off and change the channel..??" 

That's kind of the point, isn't it, Susan - the difference between the atheists that post on this site hundreds of times and atheists that just change the channel. Or just change the radio dial to hear another song that doesn't contain a reference to Christ.

It's funny stuff.


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I suppose ill just pretend

I suppose ill just pretend im invisible

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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deludedgod wrote:I suppose

deludedgod wrote:
I suppose ill just pretend im invisible

Me too. > >

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Broncosfan wrote: When I

Broncosfan wrote:
When I was presenting the litanny of similarities, I wasn't saying that you - Susan - was "quilty" of ALL of the charges.

I was using YOU in the collective sense.

And that's exactly why we're objecting to your points so strongly. You're lumping us all together.


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Broncosfan wrote: Shaun:

Broncosfan wrote:

Shaun:

Your post is probably as good an example of why I get a good chuckle at some of the posts / comments I read here.

I'm glad I can amuse.

Quote:
In your first sentence, you state:

ShaunPhilly wrote:
"For somebody who couldn't care less about us, you certainly are putting a lot of effort into talking with us."

Firstly, I've NEVER stated that I cou;dn't care less about you.

I said I couldn't care less that you don't believe in God.

There's a difference about not caring for the person vs not caring for their ideas..!!

You are correct.  On my part, it was an honest mistake.  I should have said that you seem to care about what we believe to some extent since you registered and spent some time posting.  I wasn't trying to zing you or make any grand point.  I apologize if I took your statement in any other way than how it was intended. 

Quote:
Secondly, I've posted about a dozen messages in 4+ weeks - something that's taken about 20 minutes of my time and you consider that alot of effort..???!!!

Shaun, I've sat at a keyboard for 20 minutes in four weeks typing..???!!

I would only say that it is a lot of effort for someone who couldn't care less, is all.  I'm content to let that subject drop, as it is not particularly important to me.

Quote:
But the real capper is the comment that if you don't believe ALL of the pronouncements of the Catholic Church, then you're not a Catholic.

Shaun, I'm going to publicy challenge you here - the official Cathecism of my Church is probably online.

Point me to a credible link from the Cathecism that actually states if you don't believe in ALL of the doctrines of the Catholic church, then you're not a Catholic.

I really want to see this..!!!

Well, I am not sure about what is in the Catechism itself, as I've never stidied them.  What I was referring to was heresy.  Here's what I found from New Advent, which is a Catholic website;

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07256b.htm

The believer accepts the whole deposit as proposed by the Church; the heretic accepts only such parts of it as commend themselves to his own approval. The heretical tenets may be ignorance of the true creed, erroneous judgment, imperfect apprehension and comprehension of dogmas: in none of these does the will play an appreciable part, wherefore one of the necessary conditions of sinfulness--free choice--is wanting and such heresy is merely objective, or material. On the other hand the will may freely incline the intellect to adhere to tenets declared false by the Divine teaching authority of the Church. The impelling motives are many: intellectual pride or exaggerated reliance on one's own insight; the illusions of religious zeal; the allurements of political or ecclesiastical power; the ties of material interests and personal status; and perhaps others more dishonourable. Heresy thus willed is imputable to the subject and carries with it a varying degree of guilt; it is called formal, because to the material error it adds the informative element of "freely willed".

That was St. Thomas.  Here's more from the same page;

a born Catholic may allow himself to drift into whirls of anti-Catholic thought from which no doctrinal authority can rescue him, and where his mind becomes incrusted with convictions, or considerations sufficiently powerful to overlay his Catholic conscience. It is not for man, but for Him who searcheth the reins and heart, to sit in judgment on the guilt which attaches to an heretical conscience.

There is more on that page I linked to, but I think that should be sufficient.  

But really, it matters very little to me.  If you can still be called a Catholic without accepting everything they set down as doctrine, dogma, etc, then it really doesn't make any difference to me.  I suppose taht if you continue ti tithe, they'll accept you.

Shaun 

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Don't waste time promoting

Don't waste time promoting silly views, warns "Broncos Fan."


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What's that they say about

What's that they say about the pot and the kettle?


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Shaun: This was the

Shaun:

This was the original comment you made:

" But not agreeing with everything the Catholic Church does imply that you are not a Catholic--you are still a theist, however, just not the Catholic one, according to the rules of the club in question.  And being a Catholic implies that Hell is what a person who does not believe in God is probably awaiting, at least according to the Church.  It's their rules, not mine."

And then when I asked you to provide me with a specific to the cathecism of the Catholic Church, here's the response I get:

"Well, I am not sure about what is in the Catechism itself, as I've never stidied them.  What I was referring to was heresy. "

This is EXACTLY the point I was making in my first post. 

So many of you are posting and making statements and implyinjg they're facts and when you're actually challenged, you immediately back-pedal and we get these gobbledy-gook" responses. 

This is EXACTLY the point I was making - so many of you depict yourself as analysitical and rational individuals when, in fact, at best, you're not really that much more "rational" than the fundies.

Those "cuukoo birds" are forever making statements that are supposedly facts, but in reality are nothing more than opinions - ands stupid ones at that

But you guys do the EXACT same thing.

Those "nuts" want to bank certain books and movies and music. -

Many of you want to do the same thing - but just different films, music and books. 

Those fundie kooks think society is going to hell because we're living in a "godless" society.

Athesit kooks think we're so screwed up because we suffer from a mental disorder known as theism.

You're ALL cut from the EXACT same cloth - you're just the reverse side.

Anyways, this is my last post - enjoy your forums.!! 


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i realize youre leaving,

i realize youre leaving, but...

 

Broncosfan wrote:

Those "nuts" want to bank certain books and movies and music. -

Many of you want to do the same thing - but just different films, music and books. 

Those fundie kooks think society is going to hell because we're living in a "godless" society.

Athesit kooks think we're so screwed up because we suffer from a mental disorder known as theism.

You're ALL cut from the EXACT same cloth - you're just the reverse side.

Anyways, this is my last post - enjoy your forums.!! 

i personally don't see a reason to ban anything. you can disagree with something but i wouldn't go as far as banning it.

and we are completely different from the other side. we have no specifics to follow based on an untrue book. we think youre screwed up because you are following something you can't even prove. we believe in what we can prove, unlike theists. it isn't the same at all.


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Broncosfan is running away

Broncosfan is running away without answering most of our responses. Well, have a nice life.


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What was really fucked up

What was really fucked up about that was because I didn't quote the Catechism, he didn't accept the answer.  The source I cited was from a Catholic website where one goes to find things out about Catholicism.  That wasn't back-peddling, it was answering the question, just not exactly as he asked.  I'm sure if I had more time, I might have found something within the catechism as well, but I was waiting for someone to arrive and didn't have that much time to research the catechism itself.

He didn't address why my citation was not relevant, he merely tried to say that I was being fundamentalist because I didn't follow his orders.  

If I asked a Young Earth Creationist for evidence against an old Earth from the fossil record but he found it from the geologic column instead, I would say that he didn't answer my question.  rather, I wuould address the point made from the source, evaluate it on it's merits, then possibly continue to ask about fossils. 

He simply dismissed the quotes because they weren't from the source he wanted it from. 

Shaun 

I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.


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Broncosfan

Broncosfan wrote:

Shaun:

This was the original comment you made:

" But not agreeing with everything the Catholic Church does imply that you are not a Catholic--you are still a theist, however, just not the Catholic one, according to the rules of the club in question.  And being a Catholic implies that Hell is what a person who does not believe in God is probably awaiting, at least according to the Church.  It's their rules, not mine."

And then when I asked you to provide me with a specific to the cathecism of the Catholic Church, here's the response I get:

"Well, I am not sure about what is in the Catechism itself, as I've never stidied them.  What I was referring to was heresy. "

This is EXACTLY the point I was making in my first post. 

So many of you are posting and making statements and implyinjg they're facts and when you're actually challenged, you immediately back-pedal and we get these gobbledy-gook" responses. 

This is EXACTLY the point I was making - so many of you depict yourself as analysitical and rational individuals when, in fact, at best, you're not really that much more "rational" than the fundies.

Those "cuukoo birds" are forever making statements that are supposedly facts, but in reality are nothing more than opinions - ands stupid ones at that

But you guys do the EXACT same thing.

Those "nuts" want to bank certain books and movies and music. -

Many of you want to do the same thing - but just different films, music and books. 

Those fundie kooks think society is going to hell because we're living in a "godless" society.

Athesit kooks think we're so screwed up because we suffer from a mental disorder known as theism.

You're ALL cut from the EXACT same cloth - you're just the reverse side.

Anyways, this is my last post - enjoy your forums.!! 

Since you've refused to comment on a single thing I've said, I'm going to have to conclude that your comments are not directed to me in any way, though I must say they are quite hypocritical. Not sad to see you go.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Broncosfan wrote: "We play

Broncosfan wrote:

"We play the game of life differently".

How..??

By questioning dogma.

Quote:
The frequent posters here can try and rationalize things all you want and scream at the top of your lungs that you're free and rational thinkers, but you have alot more in common with the 'fundies" than you realize.

Like what? Be specific. Your vague generalizations just make you out to be a bigot.

Quote:
I don't think the very intelligent people of faith and the very intelligent people who don't believe feel that compelled to shout their beliefs at th etop of their lungs from the rooftops.

Who's shouting from rooftops? This is an internet forum.

Quote:
Personally, I think it's the not-so-bright people who feel the need to proclaim their beliefs so vocally and in an "in-your-face" manner.

Like Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and many others? Your bigotry is loud and clear.

Quote:
I've met my share of "fundies" over the years and from what I've seen and read of Sapient, for example, he has alot in common with him.

Like what SPECIFICALLY?

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Broncosfan, you have made

Broncosfan, you have made some great posts and great points.  It's quite refreshing to come across someone like you.  

From what I've gathered, Susan has become more outspoken about her Atheism due to an increase in theism and christianity being pushed on people in a number of nations.  I too have noticed this, it is what has brought me out of hiding as well.  I can't say I agree with her completely though.  King of Kings and Passion of Christ, they have not been forced down anybodys throat.  There is always the option to change the channel or watch a different movie.  One has to specifically choose to go watch these.  I see that part of her view as being similar to saying movies like Pearl Harbour should only be shown in America or in army bases.

The only thing I have against these movies is that many theists were up in arms against The Divinci Code and a few nations are barring that latest documentary about the supposed findings of Jesus' tomb.  If they can do that about those two movies and if they really do want Harry Potter banned, than we should be able to put a block on King of Kings and Passions of Christ.  Fair is only fair, right?  Myself though am not going to do anything against these movies due to my feelings on free speech and the right of people to make their own choices as to whether they watch it or not.

The things that made me start to stand up are the ever increasing levels of theism in our political and legal scenes.  The teaching of creationism along side Darwins theories, moves being made against abortion (even for people who were raped), how politicians have discriminated then hidden behind their religion to get away with it such as abolishing marraige for homosexuals, a few politicians have talked about prayer in schools, Australia and its recent push for chaplains in all schools etc.

I want my words to be informed so I've been searching out sites on Atheism, attempting to find a like-minded community from which I can learn more.  Unfortunately most sites I've come across are either dead in the water (more forum spam than actual posts) or overrun with fundamentalists and extremists on both sides.

I've stuck around here longer than most sites and am still investigating which is a good sign but as with everything there is always an extremist minority.  They are often the ones who take the loudest stands so trying to find a more tolerant middle ground is often hard.

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thingy wrote: From what

thingy wrote:

From what I've gathered, Susan has become more outspoken about her Atheism due to an increase in theism and christianity being pushed on people in a number of nations.  I too have noticed this, it is what has brought me out of hiding as well.  I can't say I agree with her completely though.  King of Kings and Passion of Christ, they have not been forced down anybodys throat.  There is always the option to change the channel or watch a different movie.  One has to specifically choose to go watch these.  I see that part of her view as being similar to saying movies like Pearl Harbour should only be shown in America or in army bases.


As I posted in another thread, I do not condone censorship.  I was simply saying "I would LIKE" to see that.  (Yes, I do change the channel.)  I would neither support nor advocate censorship.

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Ahh, fair enough.  I take

Ahh, fair enough.  I take it that the message simply came across badly in this thread which is easy enough a thing to happen in text based mediums like this where people tend to respond instantly.

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Good Grief! The senseless

Good Grief! The senseless bickering must end.

Broncosfan, the reason many of us frequent this site is because we are intellectuals. We are interested in intellectual persuits.

From your various posts - I gather your interests lend you to social persuits. Some atheists on this site will not understand your ease in your relationship with your wife because they are intellectuals and know that an intellectual mind could not easily pull off such a thing. A social mind, however, could.

In our eyes you appear to be quite a bit of a hypocrite coming on here demeaning us (especially with your broad generizations of this forum's participants) for exhibiting what you label "extremist" behavior - which would be identical to the behavior you are displaying.

It seems as if you have come here for the sole purpose of finding a group of people to bicker and and to refuse to understand. Not all people are intellectuals - and that is alright. If you are not going to pursue intellectual discussion/debate - this is not the place for you.

If you are here just to boost your social ego - leave.