The Watchmaker

MattShizzle
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The Watchmaker

Hey, you Christian dumbasses like to use the "watchmaker" argument to prove your dumbass god - guess what - 99% of species that ever existed are extinct! What do you think would happen to a watchmaker who 99% of his prducts failed? - he'd fly out on his ass with a footprint on one of his asscheeks! So is your God lazy, stupid or cruel? Or non-existant! Face it - your God either doesn't exist or he is either a bad god or a stupid one.

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American Atheist
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Fucking PWNED!   Stupid

Fucking PWNED!

 

Stupid god. 


DoubleB
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AMEN BROTHER MATT!!! BB

AMEN BROTHER MATT!!!
BB


Vastet
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There's probably a number of

There's probably a number of decimal places in that percentage too. You're being kind Matt. Sticking out tongue

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rexlunae
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I've often thought the

I've often thought the watchmaker idea fails when you get down to details, even ignoring natural selection. Life just doesn't look designed, except from an outward, superficial sense. There are so many ways in which it seems just ad hoc, i.e. the appendix. Would a god make people with such vestiges?

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MattShizzle wrote: Hey, you

MattShizzle wrote:
Hey, you Christian dumbasses like to use the "watchmaker" argument to prove your dumbass god - *SNIP*

Don't forget that as I pointed out. Stuff like watches and paintings take several people to make.

 

 

And watches don't make love. 

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jmm
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MattShizzle wrote: Hey, you

MattShizzle wrote:
Hey, you Christian dumbasses like to use the "watchmaker" argument to prove your dumbass god - guess what - 99% of species that ever existed are extinct! What do you think would happen to a watchmaker who 99% of his prducts failed? - he'd fly out on his ass with a footprint on one of his asscheeks! So is your God lazy, stupid or cruel? Or non-existant! Face it - your God either doesn't exist or he is either a bad god or a stupid one.

Actually, 100% of all species will eventually go extinct.  All biological life is designed to ultimately evolve towards extinction.  That's common knowledge.  At any given point in time, 99.9% of all species that ever existed are going to be extinct at that point in time - of course not taking into account the species that are currently alive and have not gone extinct.   

So my question is - what's your point?  Species come and go.  It's the natural order of things.  It speaks nothing of God's character or work ethic. 


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BZZZZZZTTTT!!! Oh sorry,

BZZZZZZTTTT!!! Oh sorry, that's not the correct answer. A perfect, good god would be able to make it that every species he created would continue to exist until the end of time (if there was an end of time.) Why would they go extinct otherwise? Did God fuck up? Does he just relish in watching this happen?

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jmm
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MattShizzle

MattShizzle wrote:
BZZZZZZTTTT!!! Oh sorry, that's not the correct answer. A perfect, good god would be able to make it that every species he created would continue to exist until the end of time (if there was an end of time.) Why would they go extinct otherwise? Did God fuck up? Does he just relish in watching this happen?

What makes you assume that perfection equals existing until the end of time? I've neither read nor experienced anything that led me to believe that. Granting that assumption certainly helps your case - but I won't grant it. I see no reason to.

Species go extinct because life is a cycle. Certain species live out the cycle, then go extinct. One day this will happen to the Homo sapien, just like it's happened or will happen to every other species that ever existed or will ever exist.

Did God fuck up? I'm probably not at liberty to say, but I tend to say no, he didn't fuck up. He set a particular process into motion, and that process entails that every species will eventually die. I'm not sure how this is a bad thing.


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That would be a terribly

That would be a terribly inefficient way for an all-powerful God to set things in motion - it makes more sense it would happen in a naturalistic universe.

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MattShizzle wrote: That

MattShizzle wrote:
That would be a terribly inefficient way for an all-powerful God to set things in motion - it makes more sense it would happen in a naturalistic universe.

Who said anything about efficiency?  I would have thought that the mind-boggling complexity of the universe would do more for God's case than not.  And by the way, while the world is indeed very complex, I don't think that this complexity automatically rules out the fact that it's also very efficient. 

That's the problem with fundamentalists, whether they are theists or atheists - you all want things wrapped up in a nice, neat box that you can tuck quietly beneath the bed and never have to think about again.  But I'm sorry, the universe is just not that simple.  


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jmm wrote: Who said

jmm wrote:

Who said anything about efficiency?  I would have thought that the mind-boggling complexity of the universe would do more for God's case than not.

Yes, the universe is very complex, but it does not appear to be designed. When things are designed, they tend to be efficiently constructed for some purpose, and the better the designer, the more efficient the design. But, what purpose could the universe be said to be efficiently designed to fulfill?

It's only the fairy tales they believe.


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If you read all the posts,

If you read all the posts, Jmm seems to be a troll. He is assuming you should assume God exists if you can't prove God non-existant. And for some reason the God argument doesn't apply to normal logical rules.

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Indeed, my friend. They

Indeed, my friend.

They should start giving out those "Troll Spotting" badges already! Cool


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One fallicy I have noted

One fallicy I have noted with thei Wathcmaker argument is that all watchmakers are mortal.

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca


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MattShizzle wrote: If you

MattShizzle wrote:
If you read all the posts, Jmm seems to be a troll. He is assuming you should assume God exists if you can't prove God non-existant. And for some reason the God argument doesn't apply to normal logical rules.

So just because I attempt to engage in lively debate, to introduce new ways of thinking about the world, and to engage in some friendly banter here and there - I'm a troll?  

I think that if you were to go back and read my posts, you would find that I'm not interested in trolling, I just like to establish dialog with people who have very different views of the world than I do.  I don't want to tear down your community or piss in your Cheeri-o's, I just want to have lively debates.  

But I do understand that this is a privately owned and funded forum, and that as a theist I can be banned for any or no reason at any time.  That's fine, but I think that the head honcho's here would have already banned me by now if they thought I was any kind of nuisance or threat.  Oh well, I'll have fun while it lasts.


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Jimm doesn't look like a

Jimm doesn't look like a troll to me.
He's arguing passionately but I reckon he'll listen to reason, i.e. do what we all do.

Jimm, the problem with stating that a complex universe requires a God is that you're saying "this is complex so we need something even more complex to explain it."
This leads to an infinite regress of complex beings because the compex God will need a more complex creator.


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MattShizzle wrote: Hey, you

MattShizzle wrote:
Hey, you Christian dumbasses like to use the "watchmaker" argument to prove your dumbass god - guess what - 99% of species that ever existed are extinct! What do you think would happen to a watchmaker who 99% of his prducts failed? - he'd fly out on his ass with a footprint on one of his asscheeks! So is your God lazy, stupid or cruel? Or non-existant! Face it - your God either doesn't exist or he is either a bad god or a stupid one.

When people use this stupid argument on me I point out the irrelevancy of it.

Watches are ASSEMBLED. Human beings (and all other life, for that matter) DEVELOPE. Ironically - the Christian/theist would have grounds for their argument when they show me a watch that DEVELOPED and was NOT assembled.

- only... that would blow their bullshit out of the water Tongue out


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No. They'd claim god did it

No. They'd claim god did it and get even more hysterical about it. Oddly enough, it would help their case somewhat. Until we found the alien starship, playing games with their superior technology against us, in orbit that is.

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jmm wrote: So my question

jmm wrote:

So my question is - what's your point? Species come and go. It's the natural order of things. It speaks nothing of God's character or work ethic.

 

Sure it does.. why purposely create life forms only to have them go extinct?

 

On another issue (not related to your post) one rather humorous refutation of the watchmaker analogy is the fact that watches themselves evolved - no one set out, originally to make a watch, watches are the result of  a cummualation  of previous human inventions.....

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

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jmm wrote: But I do

jmm wrote:

But I do understand that this is a privately owned and funded forum, and that as a theist I can be banned for any or no reason at any time.

Anyone could be banned for any or no reason, at any time. But theists are banned here simply for being theists..... 

 

I don't see you as having done anything to warrant an accusation of trolling. If you find someone on the board accusing you or harrassing you, just let one of the mods know. 

 

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

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Vastet wrote: No. They'd

Vastet wrote:
No. They'd claim god did it and get even more hysterical about it. Oddly enough, it would help their case somewhat. Until we found the alien starship, playing games with their superior technology against us, in orbit that is.

I realize this doesn't shut them up... but they at least loose their pretense and my position is inserted with equivalent grounding...

I find that if you give the atheist and theist arguments equal ground - theists never have anything to argue with or for. Which is why we contiguously see them insisting on their bullshit and insisting that we argue from a position that senselessly assumes at least some of their bullshit is real.