questions for (particularily christian) theists

Rev0lver
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questions for (particularily christian) theists

so, ive been wondering some of these things which i never fully understood about christianity

 

1. if the all important goal of life is to get to heaven, why arent we just born there? why do we have to have everybody born here to never know wtf we're doing when we die?

2. what is the point of heaven? all i hear is, heaven is awesome. i really cant imagine much to do there. look down at all the destruction in the world? thats fun. sit fly around for eternity? really. unless theres a gamestop in heaven, i dont see a point to it.

 3. what about animals? looking at what you guys say, im sure something must happen to them when they die. they are living and breathing, and their life comes to an end eventually. im sure you christians would agree with me they dont even know about christianity, therefore, because they kill other animals and don't ask for forgiveness for their sins, they are going to hell. how is this justified? and if you say that they are inferior and only humans go to heaven/hell, how is it so hard to believe that we couldnt have the same ultimate fate as them?

 4. why would god even care? there really is nothing to gain for him for making earth.

 5. why is it not okay to kill barely alive babies, but theres nothing wrong with the death penalty? why does thou shalt not kill not apply to certain picked things(ex. wars)?

 6. all of you christians rip on the islam religion all the time for its terroristic violence, but do you not see what you are doing yourselves? "lets bomb that abortion clinic, because it is wrong to kill people". that makes tons of sense.

edit: another addition i just thought of: if there is this all important god and jesus that exists, why is it that god doesnt want his existance known? why do we have to go all the way through molecular biology research etc to find out if he exists? why isnt his figure or at least a representive like jesus showing himself?


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Now let's wait for the

Now let's wait for the answers.


deludedgod
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These are excellent

These are excellent questions. I especially liked the one about why god would even bother creating the earth if he is an extramaterial (outside space and time) deity. Why bother? What is the point of doing anything. Why not just...exist? Theists sometimes say he did it "to bring glory unto himself". Why? Who is God trying to please?

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

-Me

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Genesis 1:3- And God said,

Genesis 1:3- And God said, "Let there be light": and there was light.

 

And who was he talking to? 


M
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Rev0lver wrote: so, ive

Rev0lver wrote:

so, ive been wondering some of these things which i never fully understood about christianity

 

Alright, shoot. 

 

Rev0lver wrote:
1. if the all important goal of life is to get to heaven, why arent we just born there? why do we have to have everybody born here to never know wtf we're doing when we die?

 

Well, I really don't consider the "all-important goal" in life to be trying to get to Heaven. My goal is to be more like God because that is what He created me for and be part of His family. I suppose you could make this out to be "getting to Heaven", but I really have no interests in a a total euphoria where people sit on puffy white clouds and play a harp. I just want to fulfill what I feel to be my purpose.

And your next question is about the same as asking why people aren't just born perfect. 

Rev0lver wrote:
2. what is the point of heaven? all i hear is, heaven is awesome. i really cant imagine much to do there. look down at all the destruction in the world? thats fun. sit fly around for eternity? really. unless theres a gamestop in heaven, i dont see a point to it.

I don't know much about "Heaven", as I have read the Saints inherit the Earth. Heaven is supposed to then join with Earth and everything is supposed to be remade, where death, destruction, etc. are no longer present. 

Rev0lver wrote:
3. what about animals? looking at what you guys say, im sure something must happen to them when they die. they are living and breathing, and their life comes to an end eventually. im sure you christians would agree with me they dont even know about christianity, therefore, because they kill other animals and don't ask for forgiveness for their sins, they are going to hell. how is this justified? and if you say that they are inferior and only humans go to heaven/hell, how is it so hard to believe that we couldnt have the same ultimate fate as them?

Well, uhh...I don't believe in Eternal Damnation and nor do other many Christians so I see them probably being anhiliated out of existance. So while I can understand this objection with others it really doesn't phase me. 

Rev0lver wrote:
4. why would god even care? there really is nothing to gain for him for making earth.

Maybe because He wants a family? I mean, He is a Creator. I don't know all the implications for Him creating, but I'm sure there is something to gain for Him and for us. 

Rev0lver wrote:
5. why is it not okay to kill barely alive babies, but theres nothing wrong with the death penalty? why does thou shalt not kill not apply to certain picked things(ex. wars)?

Hold on a second...we're allowed to kill, but we aren't allowed to murder. Big difference there. I know how everyone likes to quote the KJV in trying to tell Christians off, but there is a distinction between two sorts of killing in the Hebrew. I'm still considering whether or not we should allow the death penalty, but it's not because of the "thou shall not murder" command. The reason many Christians take to the death penalty is because God instructed in the Torah that if someone takes a life their life must be taken in return. 

And I would ask something else that has bothered me for some time as well...why is it that a great number of Atheists are for Abortion, but rag on the Christian God for killing children? Christians have answers to why children were ordered to die under Yahweh, but why we as humans aren't allowed to kill innocent children.

Rev0lver wrote:
6. all of you christians rip on the islam religion all the time for its terroristic violence, but do you not see what you are doing yourselves? "lets bomb that abortion clinic, because it is wrong to kill people". that makes tons of sense.

I don't 'rip on Islam' for any such thing. I 'rip on Islam' for being wrong in other areas and think it a shame that there are terrorists out that that follow the Islamic faith and tarnish it's image. Furthermore, I don't appreciate that you sit there and make a huge generalization of Christians by assuming we all bomb abortion clinics. 

Rev0lver wrote:
edit: another addition i just thought of: if there is this all important god and jesus that exists, why is it that god doesnt want his existance known? why do we have to go all the way through molecular biology research etc to find out if he exists? why isnt his figure or at least a representive like jesus showing himself?

Or how about I and many others believe that God has given us enough evidence to know? And no, please do not ridicule me by asking something like, "Ur blind faith and feelings m@ke u noe!"

 

Thanks for asking the questions. I hope you learned something...like that all Christians don't think the same, hate Islam,  or bomb abortion clinics. 

I obtained my Black Belt in History. Don't mess with this Master Historian.


Rev0lver
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(this wont let me quote

(this wont let me quote right, so i apologize)

"Well, I really don't consider the "all-important goal" in life to be trying to get to Heaven. My goal is to be more like God because that is what He created me for and be part of His family. I suppose you could make this out to be "getting to Heaven", but I really have no interests in a a total euphoria where people sit on puffy white clouds and play a harp. I just want to fulfill what I feel to be my purpose."

and the way you put it it looks like your goal is to go to heaven when you die. what is your purpose there then?

"I don't know much about "Heaven", as I have read the Saints inherit the Earth. Heaven is supposed to then join with Earth and everything is supposed to be remade, where death, destruction, etc. are no longer present."

 then what is the importance of it now? until heaven joins with the earth, my question still stands.

"Well, uhh...I don't believe in Eternal Damnation and nor do other many Christians so I see them probably being anhiliated out of existance. So while I can understand this objection with others it really doesn't phase me."

so you dont believe in hell?

"Maybe because He wants a family? I mean, He is a Creator. I don't know all the implications for Him creating, but I'm sure there is something to gain for Him and for us."

there really isn't. unless he is lonely. but god created emotion, and he could've left out lonely for himself. if he created it for entertainment, then he is sick.

"Hold on a second...we're allowed to kill, but we aren't allowed to murder. Big difference there. I know how everyone likes to quote the KJV in trying to tell Christians off, but there is a distinction between two sorts of killing in the Hebrew. I'm still considering whether or not we should allow the death penalty, but it's not because of the "thou shall not murder" command. The reason many Christians take to the death penalty is because God instructed in the Torah that if someone takes a life their life must be taken in return."

well what is murder exactly? many innocent people who haven't hurt anybody have been killed in this current war and in many others. if they have no claimed a life, god does not command you to claim theirs.

"And I would ask something else that has bothered me for some time as well...why is it that a great number of Atheists are for Abortion, but rag on the Christian God for killing children? Christians have answers to why children were ordered to die under Yahweh, but why we as humans aren't allowed to kill innocent children."

most atheist's stances on abortion have nothing to do with the christian perspective. its all about women should have a choice etc etc. we rag on the christian god for killing children because it is against his rules the he created. atheists dont have a god.

"I don't 'rip on Islam' for any such thing. I 'rip on Islam' for being wrong in other areas and think it a shame that there are terrorists out that that follow the Islamic faith and tarnish it's image. Furthermore, I don't appreciate that you sit there and make a huge generalization of Christians by assuming we all bomb abortion clinics."

i wasn't meaning to imply all christians bomb abortion clinics, i was just giving an example. the majority of the islam community aren't extremists, but alot of prejudice christians believe they are, when they do not realize that there are extremists among themselves.

"Or how about I and many others believe that God has given us enough evidence to know?"

i realize your opinions on this, but look at what i said. we have to have these huge debates all over the world about what religion is right or if there are none at all. if god wanted everybody to worship him, wouldn't he make his existance a bit more obvious? if jesus was around like he (desputibly) was back then, i would instantly believe what he said if i saw him walk on water or make food out of nothing. but god doesn't show any of that now.

 


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Rev0lver wrote: and the

Rev0lver wrote:

and the way you put it it looks like your goal is to go to heaven when you die. what is your purpose there then?

My purpose is to live with God as a saint and ruler of the Universe. I guess that's the best way I can put it. I wouldn't say I do good things just for this reason alone; however. 

 

Rev0lver wrote:
then what is the importance of it now? until heaven joins with the earth, my question still stands.

The importance of what now? The importance of life now is to fulfill that purpose and to be caretakers of this Earth and our fellow man. The purpose of there being a new earth and a new Heaven is to support the Resurrectd Saints.

 

Rev0lver wrote:
so you dont believe in hell?

I don't believe in eternal punishing, so if that's your view of 'Hell' then yes. 

 

Rev0lver wrote:
there really isn't. unless he is lonely. but god created emotion, and he could've left out lonely for himself. if he created it for entertainment, then he is sick.

Your conclusion seems easier said than done. In my opinion, it would seem more pointless for their to be a God that does nothing at all.

 

Rev0lver wrote:
well what is murder exactly? many innocent people who haven't hurt anybody have been killed in this current war and in many others. if they have no claimed a life, god does not command you to claim theirs.

Murder is the unjustified intentional killing of an innocent being by another person.

God is asbent from this definition because it has to be assumed that He is killing unjustly and that said person is innocent or not percieved as a threat. Not only that, but because God is the only one with said authority to do so as He creates, owns, and operates life. Human beings are not allowed to murder because they go against this authority in their own ignorance and are unjustified in murdering others. 

I am still debating with myself whether the death penalty should be allowed among Christians within the New Covenant as the Christ has the only authority to judge by the Mosaic Law, now...however the command to take the life of another that has murdered was given before the Mosaic Law existed. So it's a dilema.

 As for the Iraq war I really see no reason why you brought it up.

 

Rev0lver wrote:
most atheist's stances on abortion have nothing to do with the christian perspective. its all about women should have a choice etc etc. we rag on the christian god for killing children because it is against his rules the he created. atheists dont have a god.

I still think it's hypocritical for an Atheists who stands for Abortion to rag on a God that kills children. At least when arguing with a Christian this is really an unstable stance to take. And last time I checked it wasn't against the rules for God to take life at all. He does it everyday through a process we call "death". 

 

Rev0lver wrote:
i wasn't meaning to imply all christians bomb abortion clinics, i was just giving an example. the majority of the islam community aren't extremists, but alot of prejudice christians believe they are, when they do not realize that there are extremists among themselves.

Well, you wrote it in such a way that it did imply all Christians or assume that all Christians were prejudice. So I don't understand why you made the question out that way. 

 

Rev0lver wrote:
i realize your opinions on this, but look at what i said. we have to have these huge debates all over the world about what religion is right or if there are none at all. if god wanted everybody to worship him, wouldn't he make his existance a bit more obvious? if jesus was around like he (desputibly) was back then, i would instantly believe what he said if i saw him walk on water or make food out of nothing. but god doesn't show any of that now.

The point is whether or not His existance being known is relevant really at all. Christians acknowledge that Satan knows God exists, but still opposes Him.  

 

I obtained my Black Belt in History. Don't mess with this Master Historian.


Rev0lver
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i have to run, so im only

i have to run, so im only going to get to the last response right now, il respond to the others later.

 yes, i think it would be relevant whether or not his existance was known. if god wants everybody to worship and want to be with him, then he would show himself in a much less vague way and there would only be christianity and satanism. if god came down and showed himself i wouldnt doubt at all that the entire atheist community would be a christian.


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Quote: My purpose is to

Quote:
My purpose is to live with God as a saint and ruler of the Universe. I guess that's the best way I can put it. I wouldn't say I do good things just for this reason alone; however.

i highly doubt you become co-ruler of the universe when you go to heaven

Quote:
The importance of what now? The importance of life now is to fulfill that purpose and to be caretakers of this Earth and our fellow man. The purpose of there being a new earth and a new Heaven is to support the Resurrectd Saints.

i was asking the importance of heaven right now

Quote:
Your conclusion seems easier said than done. In my opinion, it would seem more pointless for their to be a God that does nothing at all.

it seems more pointless, but if there is a god, more believable.

Quote:
Murder is the unjustified intentional killing of an innocent being by another person.

God is asbent from this definition because it has to be assumed that He is killing unjustly and that said person is innocent or not percieved as a threat. Not only that, but because God is the only one with said authority to do so as He creates, owns, and operates life. Human beings are not allowed to murder because they go against this authority in their own ignorance and are unjustified in murdering others.

he is definitly killing unjustly. he is killing his own children. he has the authority, but that doesn't make it unjust. bush has the authority to bomb every square inch of the middle east at this point, but even he would see that as not right.

Quote:
I still think it's hypocritical for an Atheists who stands for Abortion to rag on a God that kills children. At least when arguing with a Christian this is really an unstable stance to take. And last time I checked it wasn't against the rules for God to take life at all. He does it everyday through a process we call "death".

death is a mild way to put it. some people die of old age, and some people die from brutal torture, which is why i and many others argue about his methods of death.

im not 100% for or against abortion, but we're not being hypocrits at all when we don't have a bible saying this stuff.

Quote:
Well, you wrote it in such a way that it did imply all Christians or assume that all Christians were prejudice. So I don't understand why you made the question out that way.

i apologize for doing so, but you can't deny that there are many christians who are.


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Quote: Well, I really don't

Quote:
Well, I really don't consider the "all-important goal" in life to be trying to get to Heaven. My goal is to be more like God because that is what He created me for and be part of His family. I suppose you could make this out to be "getting to Heaven", but I really have no interests in a a total euphoria where people sit on puffy white clouds and play a harp. I just want to fulfill what I feel to be my purpose.

So you think that your purpose is to be the part of the leading team. I've got something more grim in mind: How about if your purpose was to just sit there and continuously sing and praise God, just to please his big ego?

Quote:
I don't know much about "Heaven", as I have read the Saints inherit the Earth. Heaven is supposed to then join with Earth and everything is supposed to be remade, where death, destruction, etc. are no longer present.

So if you combine this with the fact that you don't believe in eternal damnation, I get the feeling that you shouldn't much care whatever you do in this life. You'll only be rewarded less when the merger happens.

Quote:
Well, uhh...I don't believe in Eternal Damnation and nor do other many Christians so I see them probably being anhiliated out of existance. So while I can understand this objection with others it really doesn't phase me.

And we humans don't have this option? Rats! I want to be annihilated too!

Quote:
Maybe because He wants a family? I mean, He is a Creator. I don't know all the implications for Him creating, but I'm sure there is something to gain for Him and for us.

He had those things called "angels" and all that... why would he need something like us as "family"? Reminds me of Russel's "Theologian's Nightmare"...

Quote:
Hold on a second...we're allowed to kill, but we aren't allowed to murder. Big difference there. I know how everyone likes to quote the KJV in trying to tell Christians off, but there is a distinction between two sorts of killing in the Hebrew. I'm still considering whether or not we should allow the death penalty, but it's not because of the "thou shall not murder" command. The reason many Christians take to the death penalty is because God instructed in the Torah that if someone takes a life their life must be taken in return.

Well, whlist I myself do understand the probable benefits of the death penalty and am not necessarily for it, I will have to tell you that your interpretation is SO DAMN WRONG.

And I say that because the death penalty is supposed to be a penalty for something so heinous, that the world couldn't take it. That of course, is the supreme penalty yet, and since it is irreversible, one must weigh really well on what grounds that penalty is given. Because one JUST MIGHT have the wrong guy. The guy receiving the penalty just might be innocent. And then what are you going to say? "Whoops, I did it again"?

Unless there is no possible other way, the death penalty is still murder, because you never know just how guilty the guy is.

And don't say that can't happen, because http://www.nacdl.org/public.nsf/defenseupdates/deathpenalty035?opendocument .

Though I admit that God doesn't explicitly say he is against full proof, he actually doesn't say anything about proof at all. We can only deduce from his words that a certain degree of proof must exist (he's referring to crimes as "if someone is found doing (whatever crime), then...&quotEye-wink.

So whichever way we take it, killing another human being is probably excusable only if you had:

1. no intention (which automatically rules out executions)

2. no knowledge that the circumstances in which the killing happened would lead to death (which AGAIN rules out executions)

Anything to say on this one ?

Quote:
And I would ask something else that has bothered me for some time as well...why is it that a great number of Atheists are for Abortion, but rag on the Christian God for killing children? Christians have answers to why children were ordered to die under Yahweh, but why we as humans aren't allowed to kill innocent children.

Well, frankly, I'm for abortion. I admit me and my love haven't had to undergo such drastic measures, but I am for abortion.

And I think that those who are against abortion in any circumstance should be raped themselves (especially women, as to men, this would only lead (I presume) to a severe, but temporary rear-ache).

Quote:
Or how about I and many others believe that God has given us enough evidence to know? And no, please do not ridicule me by asking something like, "Ur blind faith and feelings m@ke u noe!"

Well, how about sharing that evidence with us?

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Quote:My purpose is to

Quote:
My purpose is to live with God as a saint and ruler of the Universe.

There's a melody I wish to dedicate to you: Aerosmith - Dream on...

Quote:
Murder is the unjustified intentional killing of an innocent being by another person.

So by your definition, murder also includes:

- execution of an innocent (unjustified - yes, he didn't do anything; intentional - yes, nobody executes without wanting to)

- war casualties (intentional - yes, you don't just shoot at the opposing party by mistake; unjustified - yes, one could use high-dosage tranquilizer darts instead; innocent - yes, opposing soldiers, like you, have no other choice but to be there in the range of your gun) - which responds to your question on Iraq, by the way.

- euthanasia, though one could argue that it isn't unjustified...

Where, oh where, did evolution go wrong?

Quote:
God is asbent from this definition because it has to be assumed that He is killing unjustly and that said person is innocent or not percieved as a threat. Not only that, but because God is the only one with said authority to do so as He creates, owns, and operates life. Human beings are not allowed to murder because they go against this authority in their own ignorance and are unjustified in murdering others.

Short version: God can murder, human can't. That doesn't sound like coming from an "all-loving father".

Quote:
I still think it's hypocritical for an Atheists who stands for Abortion to rag on a God that kills children.

Oh, I'm sorry, did I as an atheist ever say that I'm the most moral best and all-loving thing in the entire Universe? No, I think I did not. Your god did, though. So you're creating a false dichotomy here.

Quote:
At least when arguing with a Christian this is really an unstable stance to take.

If you're talking about a dogmatic, closed-minded Christian, ANY stance other than his own is unstable to take.

Quote:
And last time I checked it wasn't against the rules for God to take life at all. He does it everyday through a process we call "death".

Sure. If God makes the rules and can change them anytime he wishes, knowing that nobody will ever be able to take him off the throne, why bother respecting those rules? You know, we humans generally call this "abuse of power"...

Quote:
The point is whether or not His existance being known is relevant really at all. Christians acknowledge that Satan knows God exists, but still opposes Him.

I don't think I ever heard of Satan having a bad time in Hell. What I've heard is that he actually enjoys himself. Surely if I knew there would be no consequences, I would oppose a boss like Yahweh...

Inquisition - "The flames are all long gone, but the pain lingers on..."
http://rigoromortis.blogspot.com/