Simple truths.

Hambydammit
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Simple truths.

Hell is permanent.  Damnation to hell is eternal and irrevocable.  Hell is torture.

Hell is the consequence of not believing in Jesus.

Heaven is the reward for believing in Jesus. 

God created the universe.  God created earth.  God created man.  God created Satan.  God created hell.

God created morals. 

God created man with the choice to be moral or immoral.

Some people believe in Jesus.

Some people do not believe in Jesus.

Some people who believe in Jesus are moral. *

Some people who do not believe in Jesus are moral.

Some people who believe in Jesus are immoral. *

Some people who do not believe in Jesus are immoral.

All people who believe in Jesus will go to heaven.

All people who do not believe in Jesus will go to hell.

Logically, some people who are moral will go to heaven, and some to hell.

Also logically, some people who are immoral will go to heaven, and some to hell.

 

So...

any theists want to demonstrate that any of my simple statements are false?

 

 * By saying "some people are (im)moral" I mean to say that their overwhelming tendencies are (im)moral.  I'm well aware that everyone commits both moral and immoral acts.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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I can already tell some will

I can already tell some will try to say simply by not believing in Jesus we are immoral.


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"By not believing in Jesus

"By not believing in Jesus you're immoral." Sticking out tongue

You called that one... 


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Hambydammit, you forgot one

Hambydammit, you forgot one thing, "God transcends logic." Eye-wink


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If one were to accept that

If one were to accept that belief.. then he would not have to address the simple truths to begin with.


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I was waiting for that one,

I was waiting for that one, too.  It's the most obvious, and also one of the easiest to refute.

In order to believe that not believing in Jesus is immoral, I must believe in Jesus.

Since this is obviously circular logic, I can dismiss it.

I can also dismiss it on the grounds that a belief is not moral or immoral.  It is simply a belief.  Actions are moral or immoral.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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RhadTheGizmo wrote: If one

RhadTheGizmo wrote:
If one were to accept that belief.. then he would not have to address the simple truths to begin with.

Precisely.


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"God Transcends Logic" is

"God Transcends Logic" is not something I'll address in this thread because it's clearly not a simple truth, since it's illogical.

So, if any theists were thinking of saying that, don't.  All I want is evidence that any of my statements are false.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Most Christians I would

Most Christians I would think would also disagree that EVERYONE who believes in Jesus goes to heaven - didn't he himself say something along the lines that not everyone who calls upon him will be saved? After all, what if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit, but later believe in Jesus?

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It is not an "illogical"

It is not an "illogical" statement.. it is "alogical".

 Wait.. is "alogical" a word? Heh.


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Hmmm... a-logical. Not

Hmmm... a-logical.

Not going to touch that one.

Anything that is not within the bounds of logic is outside of the bounds of logic, and fits the definition of illogical.

The statement, "God transcends logic" says in as many words that god is outside the bounds of logic, whether above, below, or any other descriptor.  Therefore, god HAS to be illogical for that statement to be true.

(Therefore, god is not all powerful, since he cannot be logical, since that would restrict him, and make him less than all-powerful!  Ouch... )

 

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MattShizzle wrote: Most

MattShizzle wrote:
Most Christians I would think would also disagree that EVERYONE who believes in Jesus goes to heaven - didn't he himself say something along the lines that not everyone who calls upon him will be saved? After all, what if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit, but later believe in Jesus?

I guess Jesus and the h.s. would have to duke it out -- who's your money on? 

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Damn... all you atheists

Damn... all you atheists are taking away all the good theist arguments...

Funny that no theists are jumping in...

Anyway, most xtians shy away from the unpardonable sin, because even their deluded brains can understand that saying, "God dammit!" before being a Christian is a pretty poor reason to cut off the possibility of going to heaven.

(Yeah, I know, that's not really blaspheming the holy spirit... yada yada.)

That leads to the other escape hatch... defining away "blaspheming the holy spirit" so that nobody ever really does it.

The verse I think you're talking about is generally interpretted to mean that people who don't "really" believe in Jesus won't be let into heaven, right?

If not, then there are a lot of protestants who have thing completely wrong...

but that's another discussion.

 

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Hambydammit wrote: Hmmm...

Hambydammit wrote:


Hmmm... a-logical.

Not going to touch that one.

For not touching it.. you sure did talk a lot more. Smiling

Quote:
Anything that is not within the bounds of logic is outside of the bounds of logic, and fits the definition of illogical.

Not necessarily.

Illogical. def.
1. not logical; contrary to or disregardful of the rules of logic; unreasoning.

There is nothing "illogical" about saying that "God transcends logic"-- it is merely an assertion that cannot be understood through logic.

Assertion in and of themselves are not illogical-- they are just statements.

Quote:
The statement, "God transcends logic" says in as many words that god is outside the bounds of logic, whether above, below, or any other descriptor.

Yup.

Quote:
Therefore, god HAS to be illogical for that statement to be true.

Nope.

Its the difference between moral, immoral, and amoral.

Quote:
(Therefore, god is not all powerful, since he cannot be logical, since that would restrict him, and make him less than all-powerful! Ouch... )

I'm not even stating this as my position.. that god transcends logic.  But even if I did.. this counter argument would not work.

"Logic" is conceptual.  It doesn't exist apart from assumptions and "concepts".

If I were to say God could not create a "square circle"-- it is merely stating a logical certainty.. because.. the concepts of "circle" and "square" have definitions.. change either parameter and it is called something else... because WE would call it something else.


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To be accurate, you have to

To be accurate, you have to admit that I did not touch "a-logical" because it's a nonsense word, and I didn't speak of it again.

I'm going to pass on this discussion, because it will lead to the same place it did last time we had it.  You're going to end up in nihilism, and I'm going to have to concede that if you don't want to admit to anything being certain, then you can say anything you want and I can't disprove you.

 

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Heh.. I wasn't touching on

Heh.. I wasn't touching on nihilism or the limit of knowledge in this one though (didn't mean to).  I was just making an observation about the nature of logic.


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I guess the main statement

I guess the main statement I don't agree with is:  "Some people who believe in Jesus are immoral. *"

If you truely believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that he died and rose again for your sins, then you will turn from your immoral ways.  This is not to say it's easy or that there won't be times when you stumble, but even you admitted that people commit moral and immoral acts.  If they truely believe, their over all tendencies will turn to moral because Jesus calls Christians to live a moral life.

If someone claims to believe in Jesus and be a Christian, yet still engages in over all immoral behavior, I would call that person a liar.

 James 2:17 says the following about believing:  "In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

James 2:19:  "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder."

 Belief is not enough.....one must show their belief by changing their ways.  So can an overtly immoral person go to heaven?  No, I don't think so.

 


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Brimstone wrote: If you

Brimstone wrote:
If you truely believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that he died and rose again for your sins, then you will turn from your immoral ways. This is not to say it's easy or that there won't be times when you stumble, but even you admitted that people commit moral and immoral acts. If they truely believe, their over all tendencies will turn to moral because Jesus calls Christians to live a moral life.

This smacks of special pleading. How much "stumbling" do you have to do before it shows that you really, truly didn't believe?

Even the verses you quote in James do not necessarily show that those who don't back their faith up with works aren't really saved. It all depends on what you mean by faith being "dead."

Brimstone wrote:
Belief is not enough.....one must show their belief by changing their ways. So can an overtly immoral person go to heaven? No, I don't think so.

Let's test the limits of this position. What about the deathbed conversion of an immoral person?


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Hambydammit, Read Romans

Hambydammit,

Read Romans 2.  That will answer it all.  No Christian should ever respond he or she is going to hell about any single person because we are not final judge or jury.  

Romans 2:1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things

Now to answer the question, how do you prove that your statements are false? (I've posted this before):

Romans 2: 13-15 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Indeed, when Gentiles (aka non believers), who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.

Not one person on earth will ever be perfect.  Not one person will ever be without sin.  God knows this and understands it hence it is not by who committed the least number of sins that will keep any single person away from hell:

Romans 3:10-12 "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

To a Christian, when one truly believes he or she changes their mentality to TRY to remove the thoughts of sinning (Romans 6:1).  It's going to happen no matter what but even you'll see the truth of their hearts.  For those who don't believe, well I refer you back to Romans 2. 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak, you pretty much

razorphreak, you pretty much answered it (from the Christian perspective at least). I would also throw in James 2:10:

Quote:
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. (NIV)

From a Christian perspective, everyone is immoral.


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Razorphreak said it better

Razorphreak said it better than I did.  The main point in what I was writing is that the true believer's heart is changed.  If your heart is truely changed, it will show in your actions.

 What the verses were meant to point out is that just saying that you believe that God exists doesn't make you saved.  Being saved comes from accepting God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit into your life and allowing Him to change you from the inside out.   As the original author of this thread stated, man can choose to be moral or immoral.  God is not needed to live a moral life.  But just living a moral life does not mean admittance into heaven.  What gets man into heaven is 1) admitting they have sinned and fallen short of God's glory, and 2) accepting Jesus as their savior when he died and rose again.  

 This brings us to the death bed postion.  If that person truely believed, confessed, and accepted Jesus, then yes I believe he would go to heaven.  What matters is the faith, not the life lived.  So I guess I was wrong.  Yes, an immoral person can go to heaven. 


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Brimstone wrote: What the

Brimstone wrote:
What the verses were meant to point out is that just saying that you believe that God exists doesn't make you saved. Being saved comes from accepting God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit into your life and allowing Him to change you from the inside out. As the original author of this thread stated, man can choose to be moral or immoral. God is not needed to live a moral life. But just living a moral life does not mean admittance into heaven. What gets man into heaven is 1) admitting they have sinned and fallen short of God's glory, and 2) accepting Jesus as their savior when he died and rose again.

This brings us to the death bed postion. If that person truely believed, confessed, and accepted Jesus, then yes I believe he would go to heaven. What matters is the faith, not the life lived. So I guess I was wrong. Yes, an immoral person can go to heaven.

But what would you say to the native from Brazil in the Amazon who never once heard of the bible or Jesus?  The reason for me asking this is because what I posted above in Romans 2 should point out that even those who never heard of Jesus can and will get into heaven, sometimes even before those who have and only said they "believed".  

Matthew 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Even Hitler, in all the evil that surrounded him, if he did the will of God, who are we to say if he be in heaven or hell?  My point?  It is not for any Christian to force the hand or the will of God and presume judgement.  God knows the heart of the person, theist or atheist, and we will all be judged accordingly.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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Well, this all went exactly

Well, this all went exactly where it was supposed to go...

The "No True Scotsman" argument is probably the one that makes me grumpiest.  I actually like the "Who are you to say someone is going to hell or not?"

I'm nobody to say it.  In fact, I didn't.  God did.  You've read revelations, I presume.  God says that many, many people are going to go.  Furthermore, Jesus said that believing in him was the only way to get to heaven.  If you use a little simple logic, you can conclude that anyone who doesn't will go to hell.

Furthermore, it doesn't matter if anyone individually goes to hell.  I wouldn't presume to say that someone specific is destined for hell or heaven, but I can say categorically that some are going to hell and some are going to heaven.  That's all I said, so your piety is wasted, and doesn't address the point.

To Razorfreak, logically, then, it would be much better to live somewhere where nobody's ever heard of Jesus, because then if you're basically a good person, you get into heaven... but if you have heard of Jesus, then you have to believe in a story that sounds just like every other fairy tale you've ever heard, and being moral is not good enough.

The best way to get people into heaven is to NOT tell them about Jesus, if what you say is true.

 

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Hambydammit wrote: I'm

Hambydammit wrote:
I'm nobody to say it. In fact, I didn't. God did. You've read revelations, I presume. God says that many, many people are going to go. Furthermore, Jesus said that believing in him was the only way to get to heaven. If you use a little simple logic, you can conclude that anyone who doesn't will go to hell.

Furthermore, it doesn't matter if anyone individually goes to hell. I wouldn't presume to say that someone specific is destined for hell or heaven, but I can say categorically that some are going to hell and some are going to heaven. That's all I said, so your piety is wasted, and doesn't address the point.

Of course there will be those who won't make it.  God in the bible said so.  Thing is...we as humans should not and cannot assume who.  That's the point...

Hambydammit wrote:
To Razorfreak, logically, then, it would be much better to live somewhere where nobody's ever heard of Jesus, because then if you're basically a good person, you get into heaven... but if you have heard of Jesus, then you have to believe in a story that sounds just like every other fairy tale you've ever heard, and being moral is not good enough.

The best way to get people into heaven is to NOT tell them about Jesus, if what you say is true.

I don't think you understood.  It has nothing to do with hearing the name.  As it states several times, "He who has ears, let him hear."  Because you've heard the name does not mean you heard what it means and only God will grant you the understanding on what the whole thing is about.  This goes back to something we discussed previously - not everyone is meant to understand and that is what was intended.  That's why I pointed out the verse in Romans 2 that discusses to those who do not live by the law but rather living by the law written on their hearts.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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As to your first point,

As to your first point, it's clear you did not comprehend what I wrote.  I can do nothing but ask you to re-read it.  To save you from backtracking, the "simple truth" I postulated is that some will go to heaven and some will go to hell, based on the criteria that Christians say are in the bible.

As to your second point, I didn't remember a conversation with you where you said that god makes it so that some people will not understand and will go to hell.   To that, I can only say that he's an asshole and a thug for doing such a heinous thing.  How could you do anything but hate such a deity?

If that's not what you meant, maybe you meant that those who follow the ethics that are naturally in their heart will go to heaven... well, again, it's better for them not to have heard of jesus.

Your points don't address the issue.  Please reread this thread and think about the precise meanings of the words I used.

 

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Hambydammit wrote: As to

Hambydammit wrote:
As to your first point, it's clear you did not comprehend what I wrote. I can do nothing but ask you to re-read it. To save you from backtracking, the "simple truth" I postulated is that some will go to heaven and some will go to hell, based on the criteria that Christians say are in the bible.

And I agreed with you hamby.  Maybe you missed that part?  But I added to it by saying we cannot and should not assume who is going and why they would be going.   

Hambydammit wrote:
As to your second point, I didn't remember a conversation with you where you said that god makes it so that some people will not understand and will go to hell. To that, I can only say that he's an asshole and a thug for doing such a heinous thing. How could you do anything but hate such a deity?

Romans 9: 14-16 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

My point here is not that God is evil for condemming some and saving others...but who are we to say who was here for God's purpose?  People curse God because he allowed a child to die from a disease but some may not see God's purpose for it.  What if it brought a family together? What if that child gave hope to a family that never thought they could have one and only gave them more determination?  True one might say that it was evil to let the child die...but then what kind of life might the kid have had if lived?  But again its not our will that should be done but God's because when its by his will our lives won't see so much crap.  As he said,

Matthew 11: 29-30 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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Quote: but who are we to

Quote:
but who are we to say who was here for God's purpose?

I am a relatively intelligent man, capable of logic.  I was born with an inquisitive nature, and a natural desire to aquire knowledge.  It would be against my nature to sit back and accept something that doesn't make any sense without questioning it.

Who are you to sit back and happily accept a story that sounds no different from any other god-myth just because somebody told you you'd spend eternity in a charcoal oven if you didn't?

 

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Brimstone wrote: I guess

Brimstone wrote:

I guess the main statement I don't agree with is:  "Some people who believe in Jesus are immoral. *"

If you truely believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that he died and rose again for your sins, then you will turn from your immoral ways.  This is not to say it's easy or that there won't be times when you stumble, but even you admitted that people commit moral and immoral acts.  If they truely believe, their over all tendencies will turn to moral because Jesus calls Christians to live a moral life.

If someone claims to believe in Jesus and be a Christian, yet still engages in over all immoral behavior, I would call that person a liar.

 

And we got the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy again.

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razorphreak wrote: My point

razorphreak wrote:
My point here is not that God is evil for condemming some and saving others...but who are we to say who was here for God's purpose? People curse God because he allowed a child to die from a disease but some may not see God's purpose for it. What if it brought a family together? What if that child gave hope to a family that never thought they could have one and only gave them more determination? True one might say that it was evil to let the child die...but then what kind of life might the kid have had if lived? But again its not our will that should be done but God's because when its by his will our lives won't see so much crap.

It's one thing when a child dies of an illness, and a family turns to God for comfort. Maybe a loving God did have something in mind for the kid or family.

But what possible purpose would there be for God to let 200,000 die in on day from a tsunami? What possible purpose would there be for God to let children be held captive to make porn, and sold to perverts to be raped and murdered? What possible purpose would there be for God to let genocides like the Holocaust happen?

If God exists, he can do as he sees fit. I have no problem with that. But please understand us when we say that this God is not a loving God.


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MrRage wrote: If God

MrRage wrote:
If God exists, he can do as he sees fit. I have no problem with that. But please understand us when we say that this God is not a loving God.

Romans 9: 20-24 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?  What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 

I post that passage because while you may not think God to be a loving God, who are we in respect to the creator?  If we are going to use creation as the example then you must admit that is was us who did not love God to begin with.  We as the race did not do as God wanted when he gave us all.  And because we proved that we are not worthy how can we turn to God (the potter in the above passage) and demand anything?  Now because we could not simply accept and follow we must now prove that we are worthy hence the objects of noble purpose (God's purpose) and those of common (earthly purpose).  Do you not see that even when evil occurs on this planet it is to show God's glory, not ours?  How could God allow it to happen?  Because the end result will show if we are worthy of his glory and power or not.

I know this isn't exactly what you might believe or understand, but if you accept that there is a God, this is what God has told us though his messengers of the reason why.  If you don't believe in God, then I suppose your only excuse of evil is "human nature"... 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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tsunamis aren't human nature

tsunamis aren't human nature


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  hello wrote: tsunamis

 

hello wrote:
tsunamis aren't human nature

Some will understand what i meant...but not all.


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Passages like Romans 9:

Passages like Romans 9: 20-24 leave me wondering why so many Christians answer The Problem of Evil with free will.

razorphreak wrote:
I post that passage because while you may not think God to be a loving God, who are we in respect to the creator?

Given the scale of the Cosmos, humans are insignificant. Of course we would be nothing to God, given God exists.

razorphreak wrote:
If we are going to use creation as the example then you must admit that is was us who did not love God to begin with. We as the race did not do as God wanted when he gave us all. And because we proved that we are not worthy how can we turn to God (the potter in the above passage) and demand anything? Now because we could not simply accept and follow we must now prove that we are worthy hence the objects of noble purpose (God's purpose) and those of common (earthly purpose).

If there is a God, why would God need or desire for us to love him? Why would God be so disapproving when we don't love him? Why would God need to test us to see if we're "worthy?" Why would God want us to do specific things?

I'm not demanding anything of God. How can I give a demand to something I don't beleve exists?

razorphreak wrote:
Do you not see that even when evil occurs on this planet it is to show God's glory, not ours? How could God allow it to happen? Because the end result will show if we are worthy of his glory and power or not.

Why would God need to show his glory? How would God be showing his glory through the examples I gave? Couldn't God show his glory without tsunamis, genocides, and the exploitation of children. Why do we need to be worthy of his glory and power? How would putting up with tsunamis, genocides, and the exploitation of children make us worth of God's glory and power?

Even if this is how God shows his glory, and tests us, then my point still stands. God is not loving.

razorphreak wrote:
If you don't believe in God, then I suppose your only excuse of evil is "human nature"...

I'm not trying to find an excuse for evil. It's those who believe in a loving God that need the excuses.

Edit: Grammar


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MrRage wrote: Passages like

MrRage wrote:
Passages like Romans 9: 20-24 leave me wondering why so many Christians answer The Problem of Evil with free will.

Huh?  Who said there is such a thing as free will when it comes to spirtual things?  How can any single person control the will of the spirit? 

MrRage wrote:
If there is a God, why would God need or desire for us to love him? Why would God be so disapproving when we don't love him?

Ask your parents.  If you have children then ask yourself that as well. 

MrRage wrote:
Why would God need to show his glory? How would God be showing his glory through the examples I gave? Couldn't God show his glory without tsunamis, genocides, and the exploitation of children.

You misunderstood.  When the evil of this planet rears its ugly head, that is NOT God showing us anything.  It is what results from it that does...at least when we follow his will.  Take 9/11 - it was very possible to have united the world against these extremists and rid ourselves of that form of evil yet it was obvious that God's will was not followed and look at where we are now...evil begets evil. 

MrRage wrote:
I'm not trying to find an excuse for evil. It's those who believe in a loving God that need the excuses. Edit: Grammar

I have no excuses for evil because I don't wish evil on anyone.  But I am fully aware that evil thoughts and actions exist and I thank God that I get answers from him, not me, especially when I see when mankind comes up with ideas to combat evil. 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote: Huh? Who

razorphreak wrote:
Huh? Who said there is such a thing as free will when it comes to spirtual things? How can any single person control the will of the spirit?

Will of whose spirit? I'm not sure what you mean here.

MrRage wrote:
If there is a God, why would God need or desire for us to love him? Why would God be so disapproving when we don't love him?

razorphreak wrote:
Ask your parents. If you have children then ask yourself that as well.

The child-parent metaphor only goes so far. It doesn't really answer my questions.

Most parents do want their children to love them, but there are natural explanations for this need/desire. Would God have the same reasons that a human parent does? If God exists, does he have an emotional need for us to love him? Does it give him a survival advantage? Does it help him cope?

Also, what loving parent would eternally torture, or allow great evil in the life of, their child because the child doesn't love their parent?

razorphreak wrote:
You misunderstood. When the evil of this planet rears its ugly head, that is NOT God showing us anything. It is what results from it that does...at least when we follow his will. Take 9/11 - it was very possible to have united the world against these extremists and rid ourselves of that form of evil yet it was obvious that God's will was not followed and look at where we are now...evil begets evil.

OK, I did misunderstand. Are you're saying God manifests himself (or shows his glory, or whatever he does) in how we deal with evil?


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razorphreak wrote: hello

razorphreak wrote:

hello wrote:
tsunamis aren't human nature

Some will understand what i meant...but not all.

 

i'm sorry if i'm slow to understand what you mean here. can you explain?  


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MrRage wrote:

MrRage wrote:
Will of whose spirit? I'm not sure what you mean here.

I don't know if I can really explain this...you really almost have to understand exactly what the Holy Spirit is and how you interact with it. By the way, it's not like this so called challenge.

MrRage wrote:
The child-parent metaphor only goes so far. It doesn't really answer my questions. Most parents do want their children to love them, but there are natural explanations for this need/desire.

I used it for understanding only so you can relate. God does love his creation and you could argue that there are natural needs and desires but what those are and how to explain them, well if you gave someone a useful gift, such as a scooter, and you fully expect them to use it, but they never do, how would that make you feel? Now imagine if you saw God giving us the gift of life, of understanding, and of compassion and saw us using those gifts for war, for hatred, and for bias, how do you think he'd feel?

MrRage wrote:
Are you're saying God manifests himself (or shows his glory, or whatever he does) in how we deal with evil?

In a sense but not really (hello, this is for you too). Perhaps reaction is the better word for it. When evil happens, do you stand there and curse and think of revenge or do you think and act of how you can overcome it? It's not God forcing you to do anything but more like God working though you if you've accepted him to do so. Or better to understand since you claim not to believe, you listening to your consious and following your morals to doing what you know to be right (not feel). When you see men running away if a woman says "I'm pregnant" or a person not helping the stranded person on the side of the road or when you see these hate crimes, you know that's not the right thing to do because you'd hope someone would help you if you were this victim.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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I see what your saying

I see what your saying razorphreak, but I don't think it addresses the problem of evil. It doesn't answer why God couldn't have created a world without evil. Why attribute all the good to God and all the bad to humans and nature? I attribute everything to humans and nature.

I'll give you a little story. My Mom loves sewing. Her sewing machine broke down recently, and she couldn't afford to replace it. (Not necessarily evil, but it was a big deal to her.) Some of my Mom's sisters and some of her friends found out, pooled their money, and bought her a new machine. But, all my Mom ever does is thank God for giving her a new machine. My Mom has a natural, i.e. non-supernatural, explanation for the machine breaking. It was old, and wore out. She doesn't attribute the machine breaking to God. But when friends and family out of compassion buy her a new machine, she attributes this to God.

I'm a naturalist/materialist before I am an atheist. There is no reason to invoke a God to explain why 200,000 people died in the tsunami. It was caused by a natural process. I, then, see no need to attribute any reaction to the tsunami to God. Humans pull together in times of need because we're social animals. Others scammed people because there's also a selfish tendency in humans too.

We've gotten way off topic here. I hope Hambydammit doesn't mind. Smiling


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Brimstone wrote: I guess

Brimstone wrote:

I guess the main statement I don't agree with is:  "Some people who believe in Jesus are immoral. *"

If you truely believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that he died and rose again for your sins, then you will turn from your immoral ways.  This is not to say it's easy or that there won't be times when you stumble, but even you admitted that people commit moral and immoral acts.  If they truely believe, their over all tendencies will turn to moral because Jesus calls Christians to live a moral life.

If someone claims to believe in Jesus and be a Christian, yet still engages in over all immoral behavior, I would call that person a liar.

 James 2:17 says the following about believing:  "In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

James 2:19:  "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder."

 Belief is not enough.....one must show their belief by changing their ways.  So can an overtly immoral person go to heaven?  No, I don't think so.

 

What if it can be proven that an immoral person believes in jesus and yahweh?

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good luck, vastet, but I'll

good luck, vastet, but I'll wager dimes to dollars you'll get another No True Scotsman.

 

Rage, I've almost never had one of my topics stay on topic.  Seems like the simple questions are the ones people want to avoid the most. 

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razorphreak wrote: MrRage

razorphreak wrote:

MrRage wrote:
If there is a God, why would God need or desire for us to love him? Why would God be so disapproving when we don't love him?

Ask your parents. If you have children then ask yourself that as well.

 

http://www.rationalresponders.com/loving_parents 

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

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Hambydammit wrote:good

Hambydammit wrote:

good luck, vastet, but I'll wager dimes to dollars you'll get another No True Scotsman.

 

Quote:

Rage, I've almost never had one of my topics stay on topic. Seems like the simple questions are the ones people want to avoid the most.

Yes, I see that all the time.

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

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In case anyone's interested

In case anyone's interested in actually answering the question, here's the original post, so you don't have to hurt your finger scrolling all the way to the top...  (I made it easy by doing bold/italic on the question I want answered.)

*******************

 

Hell is permanent.  Damnation to hell is eternal and irrevocable.  Hell is torture.

Hell is the consequence of not believing in Jesus.

Heaven is the reward for believing in Jesus. 

God created the universe.  God created earth.  God created man.  God created Satan.  God created hell.

God created morals. 

God created man with the choice to be moral or immoral.

Some people believe in Jesus.

Some people do not believe in Jesus.

Some people who believe in Jesus are moral. *

Some people who do not believe in Jesus are moral.

Some people who believe in Jesus are immoral. *

Some people who do not believe in Jesus are immoral.

All people who believe in Jesus will go to heaven.

All people who do not believe in Jesus will go to hell.

Logically, some people who are moral will go to heaven, and some to hell.

Also logically, some people who are immoral will go to heaven, and some to hell.

 

So...

any theists want to demonstrate that any of my simple statements are false?

 

 * By saying "some people are (im)moral" I mean to say that their overwhelming tendencies are (im)moral.  I'm well aware that everyone commits both moral and immoral acts.

 

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Quote: So...any theists

Quote:
So...any theists want to demonstrate that any of my simple statements are false?

I thought I already did.  I'm sorry if my answer was not enough for you but the answer is in Romans 2 based on the Christian side...

 

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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You made an assertion that

You made an assertion that one of the statements if false. You've not demonstrated it, nor have you demonstrated what is actually true.

Please use this format, because it's possible I've just misunderstood you.

*********************************

The statement, "(quote my statement)" is false.

The statement, "(tell me what's correct)" is true.

This is the evidence for my statement's truth:

(List supporting evidence, including citation of sources, peer reviewed science journals, proofs in logical format, or any other verifiable sources you may have to support your position.)

**************************************

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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If I understand this quote

If I understand this quote correctly:

Quote:
Romans 2: 13-15 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Indeed, when Gentiles (aka non believers), who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.

...you are saying that non-believers can be good, even if they don't believe.  If that is the case (that belief is not essential for being good), what need have we for belief? 

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Quote: you are saying that

Quote:
you are saying that non-believers can be good, even if they don't believe.  If that is the case (that belief is not essential for being good), what need have we for belief?

Romans 6: 20-23 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

When you do not believe it is not a simple matter of "being good".  As I believe it, when you do not follow God's word and the example of Jesus, you are so easily prone to temptation.  But once you understand and accept, the world and your lives are different...not to mention when in the grace of God that little thing of salvation comes into play..keep in mind though you did ask why you should believe. 

Colossians 1: 21-23 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel

Colossians 3:1-6 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.  Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak wrote: When

razorphreak wrote:

When you do not believe it is not a simple matter of "being good". As I believe it, when you do not follow God's word and the example of Jesus, you are so easily prone to temptation. But once you understand and accept, the world and your lives are different...not to mention when in the grace of God that little thing of salvation comes into play..keep in mind though you did ask why you should believe.

Are you simply quibbling on the semantics of the phrase "being good"? You cited Romans 2 more than once to refute the original thread posting -- without any caveat about having to also read Colossians.  Your quote (again):

Quote:
Romans 2: 13-15 ...Indeed, when Gentiles (aka non believers), who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.

So, "Gentiles" can "do by nature things required by the law", even when they "do not have the law".  I take that to mean, you do not need the law to do the things required by the law...therefore, you do not need to believe in god to be moral.     

There are no theists on operating tables.

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Ah.  We're setting up for

Ah.  We're setting up for the "No True Scotsman" again.

See, next, I'm supposed to say, "So, Ted Haggart... blah blah blah."

Then razorfreak says, "Ted Haggart's obviously not a true Christian."

Then I ask who is a true Christian.

Then razorfreak says, "Who are you to ask me to judge?!  Only god can do that."

*********

But, you see, I'm really not interested in going that route.

As far as I can tell, razorfreak is saying, Your statement that some good people go to heaven and some people go to hell is wrong.

The truth is that some good people go to heaven, and some go to hell.

 

Go back to my formula, razor.  Tell me exactly which of my statements is incorrect, then tell me IN YOUR WORDS, not with a bible quote, what is true, and then you can give me whatever proof you want to give. 

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Hambydammit wrote: Go back

Hambydammit wrote:
Go back to my formula, razor. Tell me exactly which of my statements is incorrect, then tell me IN YOUR WORDS, not with a bible quote, what is true, and then you can give me whatever proof you want to give.

Why so you can go into how I'm wrong and you are right thing over and over again?  How many times must I say the same story over and over again?  Your assumptions are incorrect to begin with based on the fact that your fact gathering from the book that you do not believe in was done for your purpose and not in the context or relevance to which the book speaks.

 Your statements cannot be clarified as truthful at all because it would be like using the magic 8 ball to determining the future and considering it 100% accurate.  You call it the "No True Scotsman" scenario, however how can one say the world will end in the year 2120 if we haven't gotten to 2120 yet and have no way to prove it right until someone in the year 2120 remembers who said that prophesy and note it as foolishness.  Same thing isn't it?  You use statements like:

  • All people who believe in Jesus will go to heaven.
  • All people who do not believe in Jesus will go to hell.
  • Logically, some people who are moral will go to heaven, and some to hell.

Yet all who believe, or at least say they believe, in Jesus, can they not fall from grace tomorrow?  How will we know?  Only God would and know if he lost one.  All who do not believe...but how do we know if God won't come to one of you who don't believe and reveal to you why you should better than anyone posting on a forum could?  Not to mention the fact that if that person who didn't believe and had no notion of what it means to believe meets the maker and that guy's actions showed him to be worthy of the kingdom of heaven, well I can't stand at the gateway for you and shout from heaven to you to let you know the end result.  Get me?  I site Romans 2 because it answers your statements from the point of view of the group whom you asked it. 

zarathustra wrote:
So, "Gentiles" can "do by nature things required by the law", even when they "do not have the law".  I take that to mean, you do not need the law to do the things required by the law...therefore, you do not need to believe in god to be moral.

 zarathustra you asked that before, I gave you my response.  First if you are going to take part of the bible but not the whole thing, you are flat out suiting it for your own purpose and not the purpose that God gave the book for to begin with.  And since you claim not to believe, then think of it as quoting Freud but basing his whole existence and that of psychology of people's problems are based on fantasies about their mothers when we both know there is much more than that of the study of what psychology and Freud are. 

Remember the "Gentiles" were not aware of Jesus but you are.  And because you are and have rejected any notion of it, it is important to understand what can still condemn you.

But let me ask you, when you do not believe in God, how "moral" are you?  Is witnessing a rape and doing nothing, moral?  Is partaking in a crime, moral?  Is having sex with someone outside of wedlock, or at least love, moral?  Is saying you are but defacing "Uncle Sam" to having him flip the bird considered moral?  Is prejudging and insulting a group of people because of different beliefs considered moral?  See where I'm going with this?

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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Ok. You don't want to

Ok. You don't want to answer. I understand. I'll answer you in depth just so you know I understand what you're saying.

Quote:
Why so you can go into how I'm wrong and you are right thing over and over again?

No, so that maybe you'll see that your position is illogical and I can stop repeating myself.

Quote:
Your assumptions are incorrect to begin with based on the fact that your fact gathering from the book that you do not believe in was done for your purpose and not in the context or relevance to which the book speaks.

I interpreted the bible the way I wanted to? Guilty. Isn't that what you're doing?

Demonstrate for me the method by which you learned that your interpretation is correct. Demonstrate how any of my "simple truths" are taken out of context. Stop asserting without any evidence.

Quote:
Your statements cannot be clarified as truthful at all because it would be like using the magic 8 ball to determining the future and considering it 100% accurate.

What? Are we back to the No True Scotsman? I've already corrected you on this. If the bible says that people are going to go to hell, then I can say it.

Quote:
You call it the "No True Scotsman" scenario, however how can one say the world will end in the year 2120 if we haven't gotten to 2120 yet and have no way to prove it right until someone in the year 2120 remembers who said that prophesy and note it as foolishness. Same thing isn't it?

No. I've said nothing about when the world is going to end. I've simply taken the tenets of Christianity, which are taken from the bible, and laid them out, according to the bible. You're still trying to tear apart my interpretation based on the fact that you have a different interpretation.

Quote:
Yet all who believe, or at least say they believe, in Jesus, can they not fall from grace tomorrow? How will we know?

How is this relevant? Some will believe and fall from grace. Some will believe and not fall from grace. Therefore, some will believe and go to hell, and some to heaven. This just adds another layer to my statements. It doesn't address any of them.

Even if I grant you that not all who believe in Jesus will go to heaven, and frankly, I'm ok allowing this, it doesn't change anything. So lets say that some who believe in Jesus go to hell and some to heaven... we still have some moral people going to hell and some to heaven, and we still have absolutely no link between morality and Jesus, which is clearly what you're trying to find a way towards, which is why you have to keep going back to the No True Scotsman, and why you're so terrified of allowing me to say that some category of people will or will not go anywhere.

Put another way, absolving yourself of the responsibility of questioning your beliefs doesn't go very far towards making a good case for them in the eyes of others.

Quote:
I site Romans 2 because it answers your statements from the point of view of the group whom you asked it.

No. It doesn't.

Here are the choices left by Romans 2:

1) Belief in Jesus is irrelevant. God will judge everyone based on whether they are moral or immoral.

2) Belief in Jesus is relevant for those who have heard of Jesus. Those who are ignorant of Jesus will be judged based on morality.

Nowhere in Romans 2 does it say that belief in Jesus leads to morality. In fact, it says the opposite. Clearly, vs. 6-8 can be interpreted to say that god's judgement is based universally on morality. Also, 12 and 13 back up this statement.

So... you have a choice. Is belief in Jesus necessary for salvation? If it is not, then I accept your admission, and we can end this discussion, and we can agree that Christianity is an irrelevant and useless religion.

If belief in Jesus is necessary for salvation, then would you please give up on your position that morality is somehow linked to salvation, or demonstrate for me that only people who believe in Jesus are moral.

Quote:
First if you are going to take part of the bible but not the whole thing, you are flat out suiting it for your own purpose and not the purpose that God gave the book for to begin with.

1 Cor. 14:34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

Still want to take the whole bible, or would you like to leave this passage out. It's Paul's own writing, and it's the New Testament. Can't throw it out as being OT law, so pick your poison. Whole bible, or pick and choose?

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But let me ask you, when you do not believe in God, how "moral" are you?

Are you judging me?

How would you know how moral I am? Are you suggesting that because I don't believe in Jesus, I must be immoral? How judgemental of you!

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Is witnessing a rape and doing nothing, moral?

Are you saying I've done this? Or that no Christian has ever done it? Why are you asking this question?

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Is partaking in a crime, moral?

Maybe. It's a crime to drive without a license. If a man without a driver's license drove a woman 50 miles to a hospital, and sped the whole way, because she was bleeding to death and there was nobody else around, would that be a moral act?

Are you equating crimes with morality? Interesting.

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Is having sex with someone outside of wedlock, or at least love, moral?

Why would you think it's immoral?

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Is saying you are but defacing "Uncle Sam" to having him flip the bird considered moral?

I dunno. Why do you keep equating morality with criminal behavior? Are you so unimaginative that you can't think of lots of moral ways to commit crimes?

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Is prejudging and insulting a group of people because of different beliefs considered moral?

Interesting question. I wonder what America's religious leaders think about this one. Seems like I remember a few of them saying some pretty nasty things about quite a few groups of people...

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See where I'm going with this?

No.

Why don't you say it without analogies and faulty metaphors. How about just spelling it out for me in plain english.

 

 

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
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