Atheist or Anti-Theist?? How is that not a religion itself!!

Diosdato
Theist
Posts: 19
Joined: 2007-01-31
User is offlineOffline
Atheist or Anti-Theist?? How is that not a religion itself!!

Wow, go ahead and put the Theist Spotting sticker on my name!! [mod edit: done, Mr. Irrational] After watching your nightline video, I am curious about a couple of things.

 

1. A-theism is believing in the absence of God. Total absence of God. You, instead of sitting back and laughing at all the "religious zealots" decide you should attack something that you claim doesn't exist.

I thougt you were against irrational thought!! If you saw somebody just punching at the air would you think him irrational?? That is what you are saying you are doing. You are attacking a God you say doesn't exist.

2. Where do you develop your theory of right and wrong from? Do you feel like only laws are to be obeyed to be good or is there a certain unwritten "moral code" that determines what is right and good or what is wrong and bad.

I don't think that I really have to say anything else. Your religion is your cause, I'm sad to see that your cause involves leading people to believe in "nothing" instead of an omnipotent Creator that cares for us enough to send his own Son to die for us. I will be back to do a little logical and fact based debate with all of the anti-theists on this site. Don't claim to be atheists when you are really religion haters. Call yourself what you truly are-----Antitheists.


Vessel
Vessel's picture
Posts: 646
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Diosdato wrote:

Diosdato wrote:
1. A-theism is believing in the absence of God. Total absence of God. You, instead of sitting back and laughing at all the "religious zealots" decide you should attack something that you claim doesn't exist.

You need to look up the definition of atheism before you make claims about what atheism is. Not only that, but you should ask each individual atheist you meet what their personal stance on the existence of a deity is as their is no requirement of an atheist other than that they do not have a belief in a god or gods. Some may think it to be impossible, others may merely say they don't have a belief in one.

There is no attacking god as he doesn't exist. Religious people, however, do exist and they try to impose their belief system on the rest of the population through witnessing and attempting to legislate their beliefs into the laws of the state and are therefor more than deserving of having their beliefs attacked. Theists should have no special pass to being able to hold their irrational beliefs unchallenged..

Quote:
I thougt you were against irrational thought!! If you saw somebody just punching at the air would you think him irrational?? That is what you are saying you are doing. You are attacking a God you say doesn't exist.

Nice use of bold. That is always a convincing rational argument.

If they are exercising, punching at the air is completely rational.

Quote:
2. Where do you develop your theory of right and wrong from? Do you feel like only laws are to be obeyed to be good or is there a certain unwritten "moral code" that determines what is right and good or what is wrong and bad.

There is no need to have a god belief to understand right and wrong. Take some time to look through the threads and you could probably learn where atheists get their ideas of right and wrong. It is the same place you get your idea of right and wrong.

Quote:
I don't think that I really have to say anything else. Your religion is your cause, I'm sad to see that your cause involves leading people to believe in "nothing" instead of an omnipotent Creator that cares for us enough to send his own Son to die for us. I will be back to do a little logical and fact based debate with all of the anti-theists on this site. Don't claim to be atheists when you are really religion haters. Call yourself what you truly are-----Antitheists.

I for one am very much anti-theist as theism is inherently a dangerous and unnecesssary platform by which serious wrong doing can be justified.

“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins


suttsteve
Posts: 82
Joined: 2006-07-25
User is offlineOffline
As many will point out to

As many will point out to you, atheism isn't believing there's no God. It's not having a belief in ANY gods, whether that belief would be for or against their existence. Atheism isn't a religion in the same way that not having a belief in Santa Claus isn't a religion. It's just an absence of a belief either way.


Alt Ctrl Delete
Alt Ctrl Delete's picture
Posts: 6
Joined: 2006-12-27
User is offlineOffline
I would prefer to think of

I would prefer to think of it as attacking someone's belief in a God rather than the character of God himself.  I wouldn't really care if people considered the idea of him as something like Zeus i.e. a nice bit of mythology from the past.


15:56:44

Can you put pictures in here?


Diosdato
Theist
Posts: 19
Joined: 2007-01-31
User is offlineOffline
This whole site somewhat saddens me.

I can't help but feel saddened as I read some of the posts on this site. I have noticed an alarming trend of former born again Christians who have turned away from their previous beliefs. Your head antitheist Sapient spoke about his former Christian life as well as many other posts I have read.

I am saddened because we Christians have given ourselves a bad name by doing unspeakable things in the name of Christ, promoting racist bigotry in the name of religion, and otherwise skewing the intended message of Jesus himself. Your boy Rook can talk about the Mythicism of Jesus all he wants, but even the most critical historian will not and cannot dispute the fact that Jesus the Nazarene walked the middle east countryside preaching God's forgiveness with a group of disciples. Whether or not you choose to believe he was God in the flesh is a choice of your freewill.

I digress. The truth is, I understand that many "Christians" or at least, people who claim to be Christians, push their ideaology onto people with incorrect methods. What saddens me is that their "way" has spread fear and hate when Jesus intended us to spead a message of a compassionate and forgiving God.  Yes, I have read the OT and I know the bloodshed that God was responsible for, I also know that the people involved in that bloodshed had a choice to make that could have avoided that bloodshed.

As a Christian, (who knows that even at my best, my "good" deeds are like filthy rags.) I apologize to those of you that might have been shown an incorrect human interpretation of God, or was somehow abused or mistreated in the name of Christ. There is no excuse for that and for that I am glad that everyone will one day face judgement.

What I do want all of you current atheist, antitheists or future atheist/antitheists to know is that man is an inherently flawed creature and where we have failed you, God will not. Don't look to man or yourself for the answers to life, but look to God's infallible inerrant Word and he promises it will not return to him void.

May God bless you and keep you.

Dio


Vessel
Vessel's picture
Posts: 646
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Diosdato wrote: I can't

Diosdato wrote:

I can't help but feel saddened as I read some of the posts on this site. I have noticed an alarming trend of former born again Christians who have turned away from their previous beliefs. Your head antitheist Sapient spoke about his former Christian life as well as many other posts I have read.

Wow, is Sapient the head anti-theist. I missed the election. He is certainly in charge of his own website but I don't think that makes him a leader of anti-theists or atheists just the owner of a place they happen to come together to share their views.

Quote:
I am saddened because we Christians have given ourselves a bad name by doing unspeakable things in the name of Christ, promoting racist bigotry in the name of religion, and otherwise skewing the intended message of Jesus himself.

Well, don't be so hard so hard on yourself or your fellow Christians. The book your standard of right and wrong is derived from is after all a ridiculously confusing and cotradictory source of information. In all fairness to you and your Christian compadres, I think if you really tried to live up to what your book asked of you you would be a much worse lot than you  presently are. At least you use some of your naturally instilled secular morals to restrain yourselves from killing your disobedient children and such.

Quote:
Your boy Rook can talk about the Mythicism of Jesus all he wants, but even the most critical historian will not and cannot dispute the fact that Jesus the Nazarene walked the middle east countryside preaching God's forgiveness with a group of disciples. Whether or not you choose to believe he was God in the flesh is a choice of your freewill.

If there is no god then whether any given man preached about a god on the middle east countryside (which I'm sure many did) or not, none of them were a god in the flesh. It seems fairly simple to understand to me. No god = no god-in-the-flesh-man (whatever kind of freaky hybrid creature that is supposed to be).

Quote:
I digress. The truth is, I understand that many "Christians" or at least, people who claim to be Christians, push their ideaology onto people with incorrect methods. What saddens me is that their "way" has spread fear and hate when Jesus intended us to spead a message of a compassionate and forgiving God. Yes, I have read the OT and I know the bloodshed that God was responsible for, I also know that the people involved in that bloodshed had a choice to make that could have avoided that bloodshed.

True. They could have chosen to realize that belief in a god is unfounded and nothing short of delusional. Non-existent entities can not be responsible for bloodshed.  

Quote:
As a Christian, (who knows that even at my best, my "good" deeds are like filthy rags.)

It is so sad that you think so little of yourself. I imagine jihadies strapped with bombs consider themselves unworthy in just the same manner. So sad and scary what such a silly and unnecessary self image can cause otherwise good men to do. 

Quote:
I apologize to those of you that might have been shown an incorrect human interpretation of God, or was somehow abused or mistreated in the name of Christ. There is no excuse for that and for that I am glad that everyone will one day face judgement.

All interpretations of god are incorrect, therefor you are apologizing to everyone who has ever been shown an interpretation of a god. That's nice of you, but you are a victim of a false interpretation and victims should not be made to apologize as long as they don't victimize others.  

Quote:
What I do want all of you current atheist, antitheists or future atheist/antitheists to know is that man is an inherently flawed creature and where we have failed you, God will not.

Man is inherently flawed as compared to what? Without a goid man is not flawed in the least. Man is simply man. It is only your belief in a god that gives you such a negative opinion of humanity. 

Quote:
Don't look to man or yourself for the answers to life, but look to God's infallible inerrant Word and he promises it will not return to him void.

 Thanks but I'd prefer to try and do something that will make an actual beneficial difference for my fellow humans, like try and help to release people from their irrational and dangerous theistic beliefs.

“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins


kmisho
kmisho's picture
Posts: 298
Joined: 2006-08-18
User is offlineOffline
Quote: who knows that even

Quote:
who knows that even at my best, my "good" deeds are like filthy rags.

It's precisely this kind of self-denigrating horseshit that is one of the main things I despise about what religion does to people. Nuff said.


MrRage
Posts: 896
Joined: 2006-12-22
User is offlineOffline
Diosdato wrote: As a

Diosdato wrote:
As a Christian, (who knows that even at my best, my "good" deeds are like filthy rags.) I apologize to those of you that might have been shown an incorrect human interpretation of God, or was somehow abused or mistreated in the name of Christ. There is no excuse for that and for that I am glad that everyone will one day face judgement.

What I do want all of you current atheist, antitheists or future atheist/antitheists to know is that man is an inherently flawed creature and where we have failed you, God will not. Don't look to man or yourself for the answers to life, but look to God's infallible inerrant Word and he promises it will not return to him void.

Diosdato, I didn't leave Christianity because of how I was treated by other Christians. I left because I came to the realization that the Bible has errors in it.

Christians tend to always think that people like me left because of being mistreated. Why is this? I think you mean well, but could the motive be that you just don't want to admit we have good reasons for leaving? I would ask you to not jump to conclusions, and actually see what the other side says before you make your judgments.


Diosdato
Theist
Posts: 19
Joined: 2007-01-31
User is offlineOffline
Vessel wrote: Wow, is

Vessel wrote:

Wow, is Sapient the head anti-theist. I missed the election. He is certainly in charge of his own website but I don't think that makes him a leader of anti-theists or atheists just the owner of a place they happen to come together to share their views.

Pretty rational to assume that I meant he was the head antitheist of the universe. That was sarcasm---not being irrational. The intent of my statement was to say that he is the head of this particular gathering of antitheists as he is in ultimate control of what content is or is not displayed, the structure and foundation of rational responders, etc.

Quote:
Well, don't be so hard so hard on yourself or your fellow Christians. The book your standard of right and wrong is derived from is after all a ridiculously confusing and cotradictory source of information. In all fairness to you and your Christian compadres, I think if you really tried to live up to what your book asked of you you would be a much worse lot than you  presently are. At least you use some of your naturally instilled secular morals to restrain yourselves from killing your disobedient children and such.

confusing and contradictory? What book are you referring to? I never said I was Mormon. Hmmmm, naturally instilled secular morals.......expand on that one please. I am really looking forward to the "rational" explanation of how my idea of right and wrong was instilled naturally. How do we determine right and wrong anyway? How do we know that a road is crooked if we never saw a straight road? How can your morality or mine be more perfect than anyone else's. Obviously, a serial killer's idea of morality is less perfect than most people's. Well, maybe his idea of morality is the same, he just doesn't feel the need to live up to it. That is to say that he still understands a certain right and wrong. Take a less extreme example, someone might find it fine to sleep around with as many individuals as they see fit, most people would say this is a bad thing (whether or not it was a male or a female). It was not nor has it ever been considered a "moral" thing to have sex with whomever you choose, wherever, whenever and however you like. Do dogs or other wild animals have any sense of this morality? Where did it stem from? Across all religions and all countries it is agreed that killing someone is bad, it is also agreed that putting yourself before others is bad, as to what degree is where people differ, but everyone agrees that putting your needs in front of others is bad. If we were just animals operating off of instinct alone (nature instilled morality) we would put our needs infront of the needs of others, just like animals do. Watch a runt pig get pushed out of the way at feeding time by the bigger stronger pigs. Have you ever seen a smaller child die because his brothers and sister's were bigger? Nature smature, to believe that we all began as a single celled organism and evolved into the massively complex organism we are takes more faith than any Christian you'll ever meet. Just use common sense and your heart will tell you that your knowledge of right and wrong is not from nature but from a God that gives us that "straight road" of morality that we humans inherently attempt to live up to.

Quote:
If there is no god then whether any given man preached about a god on the middle east countryside (which I'm sure many did) or not, none of them were a god in the flesh. It seems fairly simple to understand to me. No god = no god-in-the-flesh-man (whatever kind of freaky hybrid creature that is supposed to be).

Funny, how 2000 years later we aren't talking about any of the other people who preached about God in the middle east. What year is it by the way? That's right its AD 2007, that's Anno Domini, Latin for "the year of our Lord". Funny how we date everything that was "Before Christ" as BC. You can think me irrational all you want, but I find it patently irrational to think that we are nothing but mere organisms with no more meaning than to live and die. 

Quote:
True. They could have chosen to realize that belief in a god is unfounded and nothing short of delusional. Non-existent entities can not be responsible for bloodshed.

The belief that there is no God is even more unfounded than believing in an almighty Creator. Delusional, wow, you go on continuing your belief that you are a 100% independent organism solely reliable on nothing but yourself, and I will let you continue in your blindness. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life." Not delusional, factual.

Quote:
It is so sad that you think so little of yourself. I imagine jihadies strapped with bombs consider themselves unworthy in just the same manner. So sad and scary what such a silly and unnecessary self image can cause otherwise good men to do.

Sadly, suicide bombers worship the same God Christians do sans Jesus Christ. However, they are misled by Mohammed who twists the scripture of the OT to his will not God's. My self-image is not one of worthlessness, but of unlimited power through Christ. "I can do All things through Christ who strengthens me" 

Quote:
All interpretations of god are incorrect, therefor you are apologizing to everyone who has ever been shown an interpretation of a god. That's nice of you, but you are a victim of a false interpretation and victims should not be made to apologize as long as they don't victimize others.

All interpretations of life that don't include God are incorrect, therefore any statement you make to the contrary is irrational. I can attack your words as well, but I don't see you backing your position with any logic or fact.  

Quote:
Man is inherently flawed as compared to what? Without a goid man is not flawed in the least. Man is simply man. It is only your belief in a god that gives you such a negative opinion of humanity.

I think I covered this above. Man is not simply Man we know from history that man is flawed, if man wasn't flawed we wouldn't see immorality, murder, rape, incest, theft, etc. What a weak position......man is simply man. My opinion of humanity is not negative just reality. Look around. 

Quote:
 Thanks but I'd prefer to try and do something that will make an actual beneficial difference for my fellow humans, like try and help to release people from their irrational and dangerous theistic beliefs.

No response necessary as you have chosen a belief that fits the lifestyle you want. As it says in 2 Timothy 4:3-4 "The time will come when people will not listen to sound doctrine, but will follow their own desires and will collect for themselves more and more teachers who will tell them what they are itching to hear." 

It is easier to choose atheism because you assume it frees you from what you think is bondage to religion. What you missed in Sunday school was the part about freedom through Christ.

May God soften your hearts and open your eyes so that you can see the Truth.

Dio


Diosdato
Theist
Posts: 19
Joined: 2007-01-31
User is offlineOffline
MrRage wrote: Diosdato, I

MrRage wrote:
Diosdato, I didn't leave Christianity because of how I was treated by other Christians. I left because I came to the realization that the Bible has errors in it. Christians tend to always think that people like me left because of being mistreated. Why is this? I think you mean well, but could the motive be that you just don't want to admit we have good reasons for leaving? I would ask you to not jump to conclusions, and actually see what the other side says before you make your judgments.

First, let me say this. Why do you assume that because I am a Christian, I was one ever since birth. I wasn't raised in a Christian, Catholic or Muslim home. My parents weren't religious in the least. My parents don't claim to be atheists, yet they don't claim anything.  What makes you assume that I am judging you? What makes you assume that I didn't research every angle with a very open mind before I came to my conclusion?

I'll tell you my story: As I already stated, my parents were not religious people, nor did they force feed religion indoctrination down my throat. As a matter of fact, my dad has a master's degree in Philosophy and my mom a masters in counseling. They are both very free thinkers and always said that it was important for them not to impose any particular belief system on me, but to let me form my own opinion. So please don't assume I'm a fundamental Christian and don't "understand" you. I went to a Methodist church sporadically growing up, but never really thought too much about God either way. When I went to college I took a speech class and was given the topic of evolution vs. creationism to write and deliver a speech on. I had been curious about it before because, as a very analytical person, I always felt that the truth would always be rooted in scientific fact. During the course of my research, I studied several texts on the subject and I found something interesting about experiments to recreate life from what evolutionists have determined to be the "primordial soup" that covered the earth billions of years ago. The scientist took into account all of the scientific data available about the different atmospheric conditions that evolutionists have said were present and was never able to get the proper amino acids to bond together. He used heat, electricity, cold, chemicals, anything that could have been a possible factor at the time. The trouble was, you needed 8 amino acids present to maintain any form of life, yet, the early atmosphere only contained 6 of 8. It takes an enzymatic reaction between 4 of the 6 to make all 8. Easy enough, but the enzyme is created by having all 8 amino acids present at one time!! Which came first, the enzyme or the amino acids?? Funny, you have to have all 8 amino acids to create the enzyme that produces more of the amino acids to ........you get the picture. That cleared up part of the picture for me, but when I read the statistical analysis of evolutionists  data and saw that even evolutionists agree that the statistical probability of evolution to occur the way they say is 10 to the 64,000th power!! By the way, I think scientific improbability is something like 1 to the 20th power.

 Also, scientists agree that entropy is occuring all around us and has forever. (entropy is the constant disintegration of atoms and molecules outward) Somehow, these same scientists say that random molecules went against this law (immutable laws of nature cannot possibly be wrong or they wouldn't be laws, only theories) and formed a living organism. That's like saying that if you poured out a jar of marbles in a room somewhere, they would gather in the shape of a jar somewhere else in the room. The Law of Entropy says that the marbles will scatter to the nearest place of least resistance. Scientists don't realize that science reveals God when done objectively, not refutes His existence.

Anyway, I still wasn't completely sure about this whole God the Creator deal, because quite frankly, it meant that I would have to change my life. If God existed, then I would obviously want to align my life to his will. Not out of fear, but admiration for his creation. My relationship with God is a personal thing, I don't expect anyone to understand it or like it. I'm not here to please men, but God.

I don't think that people leave Christianity because they are mistreated. I think that some people never come to Christ for that reason. I don't know why people leave, maybe because the idea of Religion  hinders them somehow. I would like to know what supposed errors in the Bible you are talking about. I've researched several supposed errors, but when I go to the source, the person claiming the error was taking something out of context or re-translating the text then forming their own interpretation to draw their inconsistency. I would welcome a discussion on any error you say you've found. I highly doubt you found it, more than likely you read an atheists opinion of the text.

May your eyes be opened so you can see the Truth.


Rigor_OMortis
Rigor_OMortis's picture
Posts: 557
Joined: 2006-06-18
User is offlineOffline
Quote: I can't help but

Quote:
I can't help but feel saddened as I read some of the posts on this site. I have noticed an alarming trend of former born again Christians who have turned away from their previous beliefs. Your head antitheist Sapient spoke about his former Christian life as well as many other posts I have read.

I can't help it myself but feel saddened by all things done in the name of religion.

Quote:
I am saddened because we Christians have given ourselves a bad name by doing unspeakable things in the name of Christ, promoting racist bigotry in the name of religion, and otherwise skewing the intended message of Jesus himself. Your boy Rook can talk about the Mythicism of Jesus all he wants, but even the most critical historian will not and cannot dispute the fact that Jesus the Nazarene walked the middle east countryside preaching God's forgiveness with a group of disciples. Whether or not you choose to believe he was God in the flesh is a choice of your freewill.

Well, dude, this is YOUR problem, not ours. If a Christian wants to perform an exorcism and ends up killing his victim (seek "Tanacu" on Google, name of a Romanian monastery where such a thing happened), that's not my problem at all.

About historians and Jesus... Actually, not only that historians CAN doubt Jesus actually existing, many actually do it. As Americans like to say: "Don't think I can doubt the historical existence of Christ? Just watch me!"

Quote:
I digress. The truth is, I understand that many "Christians" or at least, people who claim to be Christians, push their ideaology onto people with incorrect methods. What saddens me is that their "way" has spread fear and hate when Jesus intended us to spead a message of a compassionate and forgiving God.  Yes, I have read the OT and I know the bloodshed that God was responsible for, I also know that the people involved in that bloodshed had a choice to make that could have avoided that bloodshed.

Well, this coming from a Christian, I believe that the RRS really shouldn't explain its attitude against religion anymore. You seem to have understood why we consider irrational belief must disappear as much as possible.

Quote:
As a Christian, (who knows that even at my best, my "good" deeds are like filthy rags.) I apologize to those of you that might have been shown an incorrect human interpretation of God, or was somehow abused or mistreated in the name of Christ. There is no excuse for that and for that I am glad that everyone will one day face judgement.

Thank you. This was actually really kind of you, and I don't think I've men many a Christian to say this before.

Quote:
What I do want all of you current atheist, antitheists or future atheist/antitheists to know is that man is an inherently flawed creature and where we have failed you, God will not. Don't look to man or yourself for the answers to life, but look to God's infallible inerrant Word and he promises it will not return to him void.

We keep this possibility open.

Inquisition - "The flames are all long gone, but the pain lingers on..."
http://rigoromortis.blogspot.com/


Vessel
Vessel's picture
Posts: 646
Joined: 2006-03-31
User is offlineOffline
Diosdato wrote: Pretty

Diosdato wrote:
Pretty rational to assume that I meant he was the head antitheist of the universe. That was sarcasm---not being irrational. The intent of my statement was to say that he is the head of this particular gathering of antitheists as he is in ultimate control of what content is or is not displayed, the structure and foundation of rational responders, etc.

So, it was just you pointing out that he is one of the owners of the site. Thanks, I'm sure those who didn't know will be greatful for your assistance.

Quote:
confusing and contradictory? What book are you referring to?

The Bible. 

Quote:
I never said I was Mormon.

Neither did I. ? 

Quote:
Hmmmm, naturally instilled secular morals.......expand on that one please. I am really looking forward to the "rational" explanation of how my idea of right and wrong was instilled naturally. How do we determine right and wrong anyway?

No problem and I am glad to hear you are looking forward to being delivered from ignorance. You know what is right and wrong by your nature as a human being. It is instilled in us naturally via evolution. Every moral concept can be reduced to a basis of survival. Not survival of the individual as this is not how evolution works but survival of the population. We have as natural human traits both altruistic and selfish tendencies and it is the necessary balance between the two that allows us to survive a social animals. This is what we call morals. 

Quote:
How do we know that a road is crooked if we never saw a straight road?

Because crooked and straight don't apply only to roads. I think I lost brain cells from reading that question. 

Quote:
How can your morality or mine be more perfect than anyone else's.

How can anything be more poerfect than anything? Aside from the fact that perfection is a concept with no practical application, 'more perfect' defies the abilities of the concept regardless of application. 

Quote:
Obviously, a serial killer's idea of morality is less perfect than most people's.

His idea of morallity may not be moral. That has no affect on morallity, however. A child's idea of an alligator may include wings. That does not mean alligators have wings. And again 'less perfect' is non-sensical.

Quote:
Well, maybe his idea of morality is the same, he just doesn't feel the need to live up to it. That is to say that he still understands a certain right and wrong.

He might not even understand morallity at all. Or he might understand what is right and wrong but justify wrong doing for what he considers right outcomes. That however does not affect morallity. 

Quote:
Take a less extreme example, someone might find it fine to sleep around with as many individuals as they see fit, most people would say this is a bad thing (whether or not it was a male or a female). It was not nor has it ever been considered a "moral" thing to have sex with whomever you choose, wherever, whenever and however you like.

Whether it is moral or not is not changed by what anyone thinks about it. Morallity is not dependent on people opinions. 

Quote:
Do dogs or other wild animals have any sense of this morality?

All social animals have behaviors which allow them to thrive in groups. However, morality is the word we use to describe this behavior in humans so to say they have morality would not be the correct term. 

Quote:
Where did it stem from?

From the fact that all living things must necessarily develop in a nature that is beneficial to survival. All life must have survival as its 'goal'. 

Quote:
Across all religions and all countries it is agreed that killing someone is bad, it is also agreed that putting yourself before others is bad, as to what degree is where people differ, but everyone agrees that putting your needs in front of others is bad.

Yes. 

Quote:
If we were just animals operating off of instinct alone (nature instilled morality) we would put our needs infront of the needs of others, just like animals do.

Animlas don't do that. Apes share food as do wolves and lions. Animals in packs do not kill each other when they will kill others. Putting your needs before others is not always the best way for a social animal to survive. 

Quote:
Watch a runt pig get pushed out of the way at feeding time by the bigger stronger pigs.

Aim to babies at the same nipple and watch the same behavior. 

Quote:
Have you ever seen a smaller child die because his brothers and sister's were bigger?

No but they normally aren't competing for food. There is also the fact that family groups are highly beneficial for the survival of humans. We are naturally inclined to look after our families. 

Quote:
Nature smature, to believe that we all began as a single celled organism and evolved into the massively complex organism we are takes more faith than any Christian you'll ever meet.

Explain to me what you understand to be the the theory of evolution and how it works and let's see how much of your claim is based on analyzing the data and how much is blind ignorance. 

Quote:
Just use common sense and your heart will tell you that your knowledge of right and wrong is not from nature but from a God that gives us that "straight road" of morality that we humans inherently attempt to live up to.

My heart pumps blood. It never tells me anything. My brain, however, knows that morals are natural and there is no good reason to believe in the existence of any god.

Quote:
Funny, how 2000 years later we aren't talking about any of the other people who preached about God in the middle east. What year is it by the way? That's right its AD 2007, that's Anno Domini, Latin for "the year of our Lord".

Wow, people can name things after a god. Well had I realized that I would have believed long ago. ? And there is no reason to think that the Jesus character is based on one person. It could easily be a compilation of wandering preachers, or a completely fictitious character to whoim magic was attributed by the authors of the gospels. Personally, I couldn't care less which it is as the whole story is non-sensical.  

Quote:
Funny how we date everything that was "Before Christ" as BC. You can think me irrational all you want, but I find it patently irrational to think that we are nothing but mere organisms with no more meaning than to live and die.

Why? Just because you think it?

Quote:
The belief that there is no God is even more unfounded than believing in an almighty Creator.

How so? 

Quote:
Delusional, wow, you go on continuing your belief that you are a 100% independent organism solely reliable on nothing but yourself, and I will let you continue in your blindness.

I rely on lots of things. Food, oxygen, family, friends. I have no idea what you are rambling about. 

Quote:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life." Not delusional, factual.

Evidence? Oh, no. I'm sorry you don't believe in that do you. Evidence is for us irrational types.

Quote:
Sadly, suicide bombers worship the same God Christians do sans Jesus Christ. However, they are misled by Mohammed who twists the scripture of the OT to his will not God's. My self-image is not one of worthlessness, but of unlimited power through Christ. "I can do All things through Christ who strengthens me"

Hmm. Yes, of course, your irrational belief is right and theirs is wrong. Again, simply because you say so. And you should take credit for your own good deeds. I don't see Christ down here in Southern  Mississippi swinging a hammer for Habitat for Humanity with me.

Quote:
All interpretations of life that don't include God are incorrect, therefore any statement you make to the contrary is irrational. I can attack your words as well, but I don't see you backing your position with any logic or fact.

I am not asserting that anything in particualr exists. I am making no positive claim. the statements I have made I have backed up with reason.   

Quote:
I think I covered this above. Man is not simply Man we know from history that man is flawed, if man wasn't flawed we wouldn't see immorality, murder, rape, incest, theft, etc. What a weak position......man is simply man. My opinion of humanity is not negative just reality. Look around.

What is that a flaw as compared to? Man can not be inherently flawed as compared to man, that makes no sense. These things are things that men do. They they are a are immoral but apparently they are things that humans do sometimes. To call them flaws makes no sense. 

Quote:
No response necessary as you have chosen a belief that fits the lifestyle you want. As it says in 2 Timothy 4:3-4 "The time will come when people will not listen to sound doctrine, but will follow their own desires and will collect for themselves more and more teachers who will tell them what they are itching to hear."

It is easier to choose atheism because you assume it frees you from what you think is bondage to religion. What you missed in Sunday school was the part about freedom through Christ.

I have never been to a Sunday school. Why would I go to such a thing? You know nothing about me so your opinion of why I am an atheist is wholly unimportant and as unsupported as the rest of your assertions in this thread. You continue to show yourself to be more and more irrational. 

Quote:
May God soften your hearts and open your eyes so that you can see the Truth.

I hope my heart is the right softness as it is an important organ, and unless I'm a much better typist than I think, my eyes are open. 


“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins


Ophios
Ophios's picture
Posts: 909
Joined: 2006-09-19
User is offlineOffline
Quote: That's right its AD

Quote:
That's right its AD 2007, that's Anno Domini, Latin for "the year of our Lord".

 So what about the days of the week, and the months?

Quote:
Funny how we date everything that was "Before Christ" as BC.
 

Funny that we use BCE, and CE now. 

AImboden wrote:
I'm not going to PM my agreement just because one tucan has pms.


MrRage
Posts: 896
Joined: 2006-12-22
User is offlineOffline
Diosdato wrote: First, let

Diosdato wrote:

First, let me say this. Why do you assume that because I am a Christian, I was one ever since birth. I wasn't raised in a Christian, Catholic or Muslim home. My parents weren't religious in the least. My parents don't claim to be atheists, yet they don't claim anything. What makes you assume that I am judging you? What makes you assume that I didn't research every angle with a very open mind before I came to my conclusion?

I never assumed you were a Christian since birth. How do you get this from what I said? Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "judgment." I just don't think many serious atheist are atheist because a Christian mistreated them. To you're credit that's not all you claim, I should have read more closely.

Diosdato wrote:

I'll tell you my story: As I already stated, my parents were not religious people, nor did they force feed religion indoctrination down my throat. As a matter of fact, my dad has a master's degree in Philosophy and my mom a masters in counseling. They are both very free thinkers and always said that it was important for them not to impose any particular belief system on me, but to let me form my own opinion. So please don't assume I'm a fundamental Christian and don't "understand" you.

I'm glad you weren't force fed religion. I was.

Diosdato wrote:
I went to a Methodist church sporadically growing up, but never really thought too much about God either way. When I went to college I took a speech class and was given the topic of evolution vs. creationism to write and deliver a speech on. I had been curious about it before because, as a very analytical person, I always felt that the truth would always be rooted in scientific fact. During the course of my research, I studied several texts on the subject and I found something interesting about experiments to recreate life from what evolutionists have determined to be the "primordial soup" that covered the earth billions of years ago. The scientist took into account all of the scientific data available about the different atmospheric conditions that evolutionists have said were present and was never able to get the proper amino acids to bond together. He used heat, electricity, cold, chemicals, anything that could have been a possible factor at the time. The trouble was, you needed 8 amino acids present to maintain any form of life, yet, the early atmosphere only contained 6 of 8. It takes an enzymatic reaction between 4 of the 6 to make all 8. Easy enough, but the enzyme is created by having all 8 amino acids present at one time!! Which came first, the enzyme or the amino acids?? Funny, you have to have all 8 amino acids to create the enzyme that produces more of the amino acids to ........you get the picture. That cleared up part of the picture for me, but when I read the statistical analysis of evolutionists data and saw that even evolutionists agree that the statistical probability of evolution to occur the way they say is 10 to the 64,000th power!! By the way, I think scientific improbability is something like 1 to the 20th power.

This is a little off your initial topics, and others are better at arguing this. But let me point out there's a lot of planets in the universe. The odds of life developing on any specific planet are indeed small. But the odds of life developing on some planet somewhere are good, simply because there's so many of them. Besides evolution and abiogensis are two different things.

Diosdato wrote:

Also, scientists agree that entropy is occuring all around us and has forever. (entropy is the constant disintegration of atoms and molecules outward) Somehow, these same scientists say that random molecules went against this law (immutable laws of nature cannot possibly be wrong or they wouldn't be laws, only theories) and formed a living organism. That's like saying that if you poured out a jar of marbles in a room somewhere, they would gather in the shape of a jar somewhere else in the room. The Law of Entropy says that the marbles will scatter to the nearest place of least resistance. Scientists don't realize that science reveals God when done objectively, not refutes His existence.


I would say your not up to speed on terminology. I've never heard your definition of entropy. I don't think scientist mean it that way. Your usage of "laws" and "theories" is not the way scientist use them. I'm sure you just need to read around the site to learn how to use them.

Diosdato wrote:
Anyway, I still wasn't completely sure about this whole God the Creator deal, because quite frankly, it meant that I would have to change my life. If God existed, then I would obviously want to align my life to his will. Not out of fear, but admiration for his creation. My relationship with God is a personal thing, I don't expect anyone to understand it or like it. I'm not here to please men, but God.

Well, I'm glad you belief is not out of fear. You're at least a lot more thoughtful about these matters than most Christians.

Diosdato wrote:
I don't think that people leave Christianity because they are mistreated. I think that some people never come to Christ for that reason. I don't know why people leave, maybe because the idea of Religion hinders them somehow.

Ok... I'm not getting that from your earlier posts. What do you mean by religion hindering? Do you mean they want to do whatever they want, e.g. sleep around? I'd say that's a bad reason to be an atheist.

Diosdato wrote:
I would like to know what supposed errors in the Bible you are talking about. I've researched several supposed errors, but when I go to the source, the person claiming the error was taking something out of context or re-translating the text then forming their own interpretation to draw their inconsistency. I would welcome a discussion on any error you say you've found. I highly doubt you found it, more than likely you read an atheists opinion of the text.

There's a whole section on this. It would fit better over there. But briefly, the universe, and the Earth, are much older than a literal reading of the Bible gives. I don't like the "old earth" creationist position because I think there's theological problems with it, namely death before Adam's sin.

Quote:
May your eyes be opened so you can see the Truth.

I only hope for the truth.


KSMB
Scientist
KSMB's picture
Posts: 702
Joined: 2006-08-03
User is offlineOffline
Diosdato wrote: First, let

Diosdato wrote:
First, let me say this. Why do you assume that because I am a Christian, I was one ever since birth.
The vast majority of christians (and people of other religions too) are religious because they were taught to believe from birth. It's a pretty decent first guess.

Diosdato wrote:
What makes you assume that I didn't research every angle with a very open mind before I came to my conclusion?
That is very rare among religious people, because they're taught that questioning their belief is wrong. Most christians that come here have no idea what research is and some even take pride in being close minded.

Diosdato wrote:
As I already stated, my parents were not religious people, nor did they force feed religion indoctrination down my throat.
I commend your parents on doing that, that is the way it is supposed to be. I am sorry you fell victim to christianity despite the advantage of not being indoctrinated into it.

Diosdato wrote:
Also, scientists agree that entropy is occuring all around us and has forever. (entropy is the constant disintegration of atoms and molecules outward) Somehow, these same scientists say that random molecules went against this law (immutable laws of nature cannot possibly be wrong or they wouldn't be laws, only theories) and formed a living organism. That's like saying that if you poured out a jar of marbles in a room somewhere, they would gather in the shape of a jar somewhere else in the room. The Law of Entropy says that the marbles will scatter to the nearest place of least resistance. Scientists don't realize that science reveals God when done objectively, not refutes His existence.
Have you ever heard that you shouldn't argue on issues where you are ignorant? This enormous misunderstanding of scientific principles and scientific terminology you display indicates that educating yourself in physics is an absolute necessity.



Spewn
Posts: 98
Joined: 2007-01-30
User is offlineOffline
Diosdato wrote: I am

Diosdato wrote:
I am saddened because we Christians have given ourselves a bad name by doing unspeakable things in the name of Christ, promoting racist bigotry in the name of religion, and otherwise skewing the intended message of Jesus himself. Your boy Rook can talk about the Mythicism of Jesus all he wants, but even the most critical historian will not and cannot dispute the fact that Jesus the Nazarene walked the middle east countryside preaching God's forgiveness with a group of disciples. Whether or not you choose to believe he was God in the flesh is a choice of your freewill.

 

I think we can agree on that, and much more.  I don't have the time to look it up right now, but I believe it was Ghandi who said "I like your Christ, I dislike your Christians."  I agree.