To Deny God is to deny life

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To Deny God is to deny life

Life requires an all-powerful being, God, to even exist. Life is too complex to simply be something that fell into place. The replication of DNA to formation and cooperation of cells. The very beginning of matter requires God.


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Forgive me, Michael, but

Forgive me, Michael, but Christ Almighty! You seem to have an unlimited ability to beg the question without batting an eye!

I can say that the piece of lint in my back pocket is the first cause, and it has as much validity as what you say.

We've disproved your arguments using logical models. We've pointed out the contradictions in your own words. We've given you math. We've given you physics.

Michael, all you've given us is baseless assertions and quotes from other people making baseless assertions.

I know, I know, I know... you're going to say, "But I have given you proof."

No. You haven't. Not by any logical standard.

So, say it again, and somebody else will refute you again.

I'm not kidding this time. I'm officially done trying to reason with you. I am truly sorry we've failed you. You've hung on for so long, I thought maybe there was a chance you'd at least recognize your own inconsistent arguments for what they are.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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StMichael
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Quote:  I can say that

Quote:

 I can say that the piece of lint in my back pocket is the first cause, and it has as much validity as what you say.

I am not saying that an abstract concept which I already possess of God is the first cause. The first cause exists and is what we call "God." We apply the middle term in the logical argument. First mover=God, God=first mover. It is not circular because both mean the same thing. It is an axiomatic statement in this context.

Further, the piece of lint cannot be the first mover because is a body, which implies a limit.

Quote:

These atheist peoples are happy. Why are they soo happy ?

Are you Japanese? I lived in Japan for 3 1/2 years. Woot!

Anyway, sadly, I would say that the atheists in the pictures (assuming that they are truly atheists) cannot attain true happiness because they (presumably) do not have the supernatural grace which enables them to do so, in companion with probable (given Original Sin, weakness of human nature, and lack of grace) actual commission of sin that is mortal in nature. In consequence, they can never attain what is truly defined as happiness. It might be possible to be "happy" temporarily in possession of a finite good, but this is only to apply a colloquial meaning of "happiness." Happiness being defined as the permanent possession of the good proper to man's nature as his final end. It is apparent that man, by the nature of his will, wills the good in whatever he does; each man wills for his own good (the good being what is desirable and hence the obviously only object a will can desire). Likewise, man wills the good universally. However, a finite good cannot satisfy this desire for an unlimited and infinite happiness. Hence, not to possess this infinite good taken universally would be perfect unhappiness. Goodness taken universally exists only in God, who is perfectly infinite and good (by reason of His character of pure act, which has no limits and purely positive attributes) is the infinite Good. Hence, man's happiness consists in an union with God - God is man's final end. But God is not a material good (as He would not be pure act as required by the first mover) and hence we cannot be united to Him by senses. So, any finite good of the senses cannot attain to union with God. Also, as happiness is an attainment of the last end, which is God, it requires, then, an intellectual union with God. This union is termed the Beatific Vision - the intellect of a man is given the ability by God to know God. So it follows (in my short summary) that human happiness consists in the vision of God.

The will needs to be united to God, because if it was not it would not be happiness (as happiness denotes a possession of God); it is the same in matter, as the matter needs to be properly predisposed to recieve the form. We are required to practice virtue to attain God, because this is the operation of the will in attainment of the end of our happiness. Thus, in order to unite our will to God, we must practice the virtues which make our actions good because happiness is nothing other than the right ordering of the will toward the end (God). Any desire of a finite good above God turns the will away from this final happiness and severs man's relationship with God (and hence his seperation from happiness itself).

Hell is the result of this turning away from God in sin.   

Our human lives are thus ordered toward grace (God's help in granting us the Beatific Vision so that we can possess perfect happiness, because we can not attain to it by our natural powers). Grace perfects human nature in that it allows it both to desire, to know, and to attain things that are above its nature. However, sin is a turning away from God. In this, it merits an infinite punishment. Likewise, sin creates something that needs to be recitifed because it transgresses the order of justice. However, sin demands an infinite penalty because of the infinite God whom it is an offense against. Sin likewise is a bad habit, a vice, which leaves a stain upon the soul. Grace is necessary to correct the natural good which man has corrupted, to remit the infinite punishment,  and to remove the stain incurred. Even after one ceases sinning, these three remain.

Finally, we move to the level of faith. God could have chosen to have remitted this sin by a variety of ways. However, He sent His Son to offer Himself as a sacrifice which satisfied for the debt of punishment that sin incurs. Also, His Cross gained for us the graces necessary to salvation. His Church was founded by Him to provide a sure and easy means for all men to reach salvation, giving them all the necessary graces for salvation. Only by faith in Christ can we conform our wills to the eternal Good, and by our actions through God's grace we conform our wills to God, uniting them to Him in love. Finally, after death, we merit eternal happiness and God reveals Himself to us in heaven.

This is, in basic form, the outline of the way we believe man comes to salvation in Catholicism.

 

Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,

StMichael

 

PS - I omitted some points for brevity and some further explanation and clarification. Questions are welcome.

 

 

 

 

Psalm 50(1):8. For behold thou hast loved truth: the uncertain and hidden things of thy wisdom thou hast made manifest to me.


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Im not japanese. All to say

Im not japanese. All to say that most japanese dont believe in god. In other words, all japanese & chinese will go to hell according to your belief.

God had no time to create time.


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 In a more specific answer

 In a more specific answer to the many objections.

Quote:

If a certain god didn't suit you you could find another one more to your liking. Also the multiplicity of gods eliminated the centralized authority for "morality" and put the whole issue of morality back where it belongs: with the people who have to BE MORAL.

Except that it did just that: morality became entirely subjective. Do whatever you please, thank you sir. But moral action is important and essential if we are to attain perfect happiness, as I proved earlier.

Quote:

It has always been something we humans have to argue and talk about and live with. With monotheism the individual is assaulted with an air-tight system with everything all neatly defined and commanded. There is no alternative. "OBEY OR GO TO HELL." Monotheism seems to completely miss the idea that before we have actual life experiences we have no basis on which to consider what morals are. They are human business for humans.

"Obey or go to hell" is not the message of Catholicism at least. There is no problem with having a system, as the truth is one. There can only be one right answer to such questions. Finally, I would concede that man does need to live and experience before he can understand morality. But morality is imprinted on his soul and he achieves some knowledge of morality in his daily experience. Man's intellect can see the truth if it tries. But that does not mean that they are subjective. 

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In rejecting this simple fact of life; in accepting the redemption of the savior and anticipation of eternal joy in paradise, people seem to abandon the ordinary existence and their part in the lives of others. Being already forgiven their sins and carrying the ten commandments before them like a shield, they avoid analysis of their own activities. Hence we have a modern society that accepts things like nuclear weapons and germ warfare and economic greed...with no analysis.

Modern society exists in opposition to what the Church teaches. The world's values are not the Church's. Further, no Catholic accepts that one can run around in a state of presumption saying that they know they will go to heaven. Nobody can know that they are in a state of grace or if they will attain final beatitude. Likewise, analysis of our activities daily is essential to Catholicism so that one can lead a good life. If the entire world were perfect Christians, no war or greed would exist. However, the world is damaged by original sin and problems arise.

Quote:

If you don't like someone is it okay to hurt them? What is it about that person you don't like? If it is non-acceptance of virtually everything you have trained yourself to believe, then according to the monotheist, it is okay to kill them, okay to enslave them, okay to rob them. No thought ever is given to what this kind of behavior (the behavior or the "moral theist"Eye-wink does to the social environment.

Except that this is not the case at all. I quote our Pope at Regensburg, who explains why this point of view is not Catholic or Christian at all:

"The emperor [Manuel II Paleologus] goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul.

God is not pleased by blood, and not acting reasonably is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death....

The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature. The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: "For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality." Here Khoury quotes a work of the noted French Islamist R. Arnaldez, who points out that Ibn Hazn went so far as to state that God is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us. Were it God's will, we would even have to practice idolatry.

As far as understanding of God and thus the concrete practice of religion is concerned, we find ourselves faced with a dilemma which nowadays challenges us directly. Is the conviction that acting unreasonably contradicts God's nature merely a Greek idea, or is it always and intrinsically true? I believe that here we can see the profound harmony between what is Greek in the best sense of the word and the biblical understanding of faith in God. Modifying the first verse of the Book of Genesis, John began the prologue of his Gospel with the words: In the beginning was the logos. This is the very word used by the emperor: God acts with logos.  

...it is man himself who ends up being reduced, for the specifically human questions about our origin and destiny, the questions raised by religion and ethics, then have no place within the purview of collective reason as defined by “science” and must thus be relegated to the realm of the subjective. The subject then decides, on the basis of his experiences, what he considers tenable in matters of religion, and the subjective “conscience” becomes the sole arbiter of what is ethical. In this way, though, ethics and religion lose their power to create a community and become a completely personal matter.

This is a dangerous state of affairs for humanity, as we see from the disturbing pathologies of religion and reason which necessarily erupt when reason is so reduced that questions of religion and ethics no longer concern it. Attempts to construct an ethic from the rules of evolution or from psychology and sociology, end up being simply inadequate."

I would also point out why I reject Islamic theology. It rejects God as rational because He transcends reason. I find that contrary to everything we know about God and the universe. Also, it shows the problem with rejecting God as the foundation of morality; it leads to absolute subjectivity. Anyway, this indicates why religion is not a matter of coercion.

 

Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,

StMichael

Psalm 50(1):8. For behold thou hast loved truth: the uncertain and hidden things of thy wisdom thou hast made manifest to me.


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StMichael wrote:

Sorry StMichael but your belief cause paranoia to fragile minded peoples.

  • The fear that god might exist and will punish you for not believing that he exists,
  • the fear that you will get ostracized if you don't believe what your "peer pressure group" believes,
  • the fear that there is no moral when god doesn't exist,
  • the fear that there is no meaning in live when god doesn't exist.

Free the people of their fears, and most of them will stop believing in god & live happy. Smiling

God had no time to create time.


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StMichael wrote:

StMichael wrote:
I would also point out why I reject Islamic theology.
Islam says if you claim Jesus is son of god, it is a great blasphemy and you will burn in hell forever. We do have problems of theodicy here ?

Are you happy now ? Smiling

God had no time to create time.


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Fear has nothing to do with

Fear has nothing to do with it. The faith is rational and bases itself upon reason.

Even if we assume fear, is fear really that bad a thing properly used? I would argue fear is a good thing when used properly and in moderation, for example, in keeping people from offending against the law in civil society. Fear of an offense can likewise be said to be the basis of what many humanists accept in their interpretation of "Do unto others, ect."

Lastly, I could equally apply most of these fears to you as well:

  • the fear that you will get ostracized if you don't believe what your "peer pressure group" believes,
  • the fear that there is morality when God exists,
  • the fear that there is meaning in life when God exists.
  •  

    I likewise intend to maintain that morality and meaning in life are rationally provable concepts, along with the existence of God. It has nothing to do with fear.

     

    Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,

    StMichael

    Psalm 50(1):8. For behold thou hast loved truth: the uncertain and hidden things of thy wisdom thou hast made manifest to me.


    Pikachu
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    StMichael wrote: Fear has

    StMichael wrote:

    Fear has nothing to do with it. The faith is rational and bases itself upon reason.

    Even if we assume fear, is fear really that bad a thing properly used? I would argue fear is a good thing when used properly and in moderation, for example, in keeping people from offending against the law in civil society. Fear of an offense can likewise be said to be the basis of what many humanists accept in their interpretation of "Do unto others, ect."

    Lastly, I could equally apply most of these fears to you as well:

  • the fear that you will get ostracized if you don't believe what your "peer pressure group" believes,
  • the fear that there is morality when God exists,
  • the fear that there is meaning in life when God exists.
  •  

    I likewise intend to maintain that morality and meaning in life are rationally provable concepts, along with the existence of God. It has nothing to do with fear.

     

    Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,

    StMichael

    Ok, so what if the Islamic god is the right god and you deny him ? Are you afraid ? 

    God had no time to create time.


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    What if god is an atheist

    What if god is an atheist and only atheists will go to heaven ?


    Pikachu
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    What if one of these god is

    What if one of these gods is the right god ?

    Mid-East: (169)
    A, Adad, Adapa, Adrammelech, Aeon, Agasaya, Aglibol, Ahriman, Ahura Mazda, Ahurani, Ai-ada, Al-Lat, Aja, Aka, Alalu, Al-Lat, Amm, Al-Uzza (El-'Ozza or Han-Uzzai), An, Anahita, Anath (Anat), Anatu, Anbay, Anshar, Anu, Anunitu, An-Zu, Apsu, Aqhat, Ararat, Arinna, Asherali, Ashnan, Ashtoreth, Ashur, Astarte, Atar, Athirat, Athtart, Attis, Aya, Baal (Bel), Baalat (Ba'Alat), Baau, Basamum, Beelsamin, Belit-Seri, Beruth, Borak, Broxa, Caelestis, Cassios, Lebanon, Antilebanon, and Brathy, Chaos, Chemosh, Cotys, Cybele, Daena, Daevas, Dagon, Damkina, Dazimus, Derketo, Dhat-Badan, Dilmun, Dumuzi (Du'uzu), Duttur, Ea, El, Endukugga, Enki, Enlil, Ennugi, Eriskegal, Ereshkigal (Allatu), Eshara, Eshmun, Firanak, Fravashi, Gatamdug, Genea, Genos, Gestinanna, Gula, Hadad, Hannahanna, Hatti, Hea, Hiribi, The Houri, Humban, Innana, Ishkur, Ishtar, Ithm, Jamshid or Jamshyd, Jehovah, Jesus, Kabta, Kadi, Kamrusepas, Ki (Kiki), Kingu, Kolpia, Kothar-u-Khasis, Lahar, Marduk, Mari, Meni, Merodach, Misor, Moloch, Mot, Mushdama, Mylitta, Naamah, Nabu (Nebo), Nairyosangha, Nammu, Namtaru, Nanna, Nebo, Nergal, Nidaba, Ninhursag or Nintu, Ninlil, Ninsar, Nintur, Ninurta, Pa, Qadshu, Rapithwin, Resheph (Mikal or Mekal), Rimmon, Sadarnuna, Shahar, Shalim, Shamish, Shapshu, Sheger, Sin, Siris (Sirah), Taautos, Tammuz, Tanit, Taru, Tasimmet, Telipinu, Tiamat, Tishtrya, Tsehub, Utnapishtim, Utu, Wurusemu, Yam, Yarih (Yarikh), Yima, Zaba, Zababa, Zam, Zanahary (Zanaharibe), Zarpandit, Zarathustra, Zatavu, Zazavavindrano, Ziusudra, Zu (Imdugud), Zurvan

    China (170):
    Ba, Caishen, Chang Fei, Chang Hsien, Chang Pan, Ch'ang Tsai, Chao san-Niang, Chao T'eng-k'ang, Chen Kao, Ch'eng Huang, Cheng San-Kung, Cheng Yuan-ho, Chi Po, Chien-Ti, Chih Jih, Chih Nii, Chih Nu, Ch'ih Sung-tzu, Ching Ling Tzu, Ch'ing Lung, Chin-hua Niang-niang, Chio Yuan-Tzu, Chou Wang, Chu Niao, Chu Ying, Chuang-Mu, Chu-jung, Chun T'i, Ch'ung Ling-yu, Chung Liu, Chung-kuei, Chung-li Ch'�an, Di Jun, Fan K'uei, Fei Lien, Feng Pho-Pho, Fengbo, Fu Hsing, Fu-Hsi, Fu-Pao, Gaomei, Guan Di, Hao Ch'iu, Heng-o, Ho Po (Ping-I), Hou Chi, Hou T'u, Hsi Ling-su, Hsi Shih, Hsi Wang Mu, Hsiao Wu, Hsieh T'ien-chun, Hsien Nung, Hsi-shen, Hsu Ch'ang, Hsuan Wen-hua, Huang Ti, Huang T'ing, Huo Pu, Hu-Shen, Jen An, Jizo Bosatsu, Keng Yen-cheng, King Wan, Ko Hsien-Weng, Kuan Ti, Kuan Ti, Kuei-ku Tzu, Kuo Tzu-i, Lai Cho, Lao Lang, Lei Kung, Lei Tsu, Li Lao-chun, Li Tien, Liu Meng, Liu Pei, Lo Shen, Lo Yu, Lo-Tsu Ta-Hsien, Lu Hsing, Lung Yen, Lu-pan, Ma-Ku, Mang Chin-i, Mang Shen, Mao Meng, Men Shen, Miao Hu, Mi-lo Fo, Ming Shang, Nan-chi Hsien-weng, Niu Wang, Nu Wa, Nu-kua, Pa, Pa Cha, Pai Chung, Pai Liu-Fang, Pai Yu, P'an Niang, P'an-Chin-Lien, Pao Yuan-ch'uan, Phan Ku, P'i Chia-Ma, Pien Ho, San Kuan, Sao-ch'ing Niang, Sarudahiko, Shang Chien, Shang Ti, She chi, Shen Hsui-Chih, Shen Nung, Sheng Mu, Shih Liang, Shiu Fang, Shou-lao, Shun I Fu-jen, Sien-Tsang, Ssu-ma Hsiang-ju, Sun Pin, Sun Ssu-miao, Sung-Chiang, Tan Chu, T'ang Ming Huang, Tao Kung, T'ien Fei, Tien Hou, Tien Mu, Ti-tsang, Tsai Shen, Ts'an Nu, Ts'ang Chien, Tsao Chun, Tsao-Wang, T'shai-Shen, Tung Chun, T'ung Chung-chung, T'ung Lai-yu, Tung Lu, T'ung Ming, Tzu-ku Shen, Wa, Wang Ta-hsien, Wang-Mu-Niang-Niang, Weiwobo, Wen-ch'ang, Wu-tai Yuan-shuai, Xi Hou, Xi Wangmu, Xiu Wenyin, Yanwang, Yaoji, Yen-lo, Yen-Lo-Wang, Yi, Yu, Yu Ch'iang, Yu Huang, Yun-T'ung, Yu-Tzu, Zaoshen, Zhang Xi, , Zhin�, , Zhongguei, , Zigu Shen, , Zisun, Ch'ang-O

    balto slavic: (125)
    Aba-khatun, Aigiarm, Ajysyt, Alkonost, Almoshi, Altan-Telgey, Ama, Anapel, As-ava, Ausaitis, Austeja, Ayt'ar, Baba Yaga (Jezi Baba), Belobog (Belun), Boldogasszony, Breksta, Bugady Musun, Chernobog (Crnobog, Czarnobog, Czerneboch, Cernobog), Cinei-new, Colleda (Koliada), Cuvto-ava, Dali, Darzu-mate, Dazhbog, Debena, Devana, Diiwica (Dilwica), Doda (Dodola), Dolya, Dragoni, Dugnai, Dunne Enin, Edji, Elena, Erce, Etugen, Falvara, The Fates, The Fatit, Gabija, Ganiklis, Giltine, Hotogov Mailgan, Hov-ava, Iarila, Isten, Ja-neb'a, Jedza, Joda-mate, Kaldas, Kaltes, Keretkun, Khadau, Khursun (Khors), Kostrubonko, Kovas, Krumine, Kupala, Kupalo, Laima, Leshy, Marina, Marzana, Matergabiae, Mat Syra Zemlya, Medeine, Menu (Menulis), Mir-Susne-Khum, Myesyats, Nastasija, (Russia) Goddess of sleep., Nelaima, Norov, Numi-Tarem, Nyia, Ora, Ot, Patollo, Patrimpas, Pereplut, Perkuno, Perun, Pikuolis, Pilnytis, Piluitus, Potrimpo, Puskaitis, Rod, Rugevit, Rultennin, Rusalki, Sakhadai-Noin, Saule, Semargl, Stribog, Sudjaje, Svantovit (Svantevit, Svitovyd), Svarazic (Svarozic, Svarogich), Tengri, T�airgin, Triglav, Ulgen (Ulgan, �lg�n), Veles (Volos), Vesna, Xatel-Ekwa, Xoli-Kaltes, Yamm, Yarilo, Yarovit, Ynakhsyt, Zaria, Zeme mate, Zemyna, Ziva (Siva), Zizilia, Zonget, Zorya, Zvoruna, Zvezda Dennitsa, Zywie

    Hindu (72):
    Aditi, Adityas, Ambika, Ananta (Shesha), Annapurna (Annapatni), Aruna, Ashvins, Balarama, Bhairavi, Brahma, Buddha, Dakini, Devi, Dharma, Dhisana, Durga, Dyaus, Ganesa (Ganesha), Ganga (Ganges), Garuda, Gauri, Gopis, Hanuman, Hari-Hara, Hulka Devi, Jagganath, Jyeshtha, Kama, Karttikeya, Krishna, Krtya, Kubera, Kubjika, Lakshmi or Laksmi, Manasha, Manu, Maya, Meru, Nagas, Nandi, Naraka, Nataraja, Nirriti, Parjanya, Parvati, Paurnamasi, Prithivi, Purusha, Radha, Rati, Ratri, Rudra, Sanjna, Sati, Shashti, Shatala, Sitala (Satala), Skanda, Sunrta, Surya, Svasti-devi, Tvashtar, Uma, Urjani, Vach, Varuna, Vayu, Vishnu (Avatars of Vishnu: Matsya; Kurma; Varaha; Narasinha; Vamana; Parasurama; Rama; Krishna; Buddha; Kalki), Vishvakarman, Yama, Sraddha

    Japan (53):
    Aji-Suki-Taka-Hi-Kone, Ama no Uzume, Ama-terasu, Amatsu Mikaboshi, Benten (Benzai-Ten), Bishamon, Chimata-No-Kami, Chup-Kamui, Daikoku, Ebisu, Emma-O, Fudo, Fuji, Fukurokuju, Gekka-O, Hachiman, Hettsui-No-Kami, Ho-Masubi, Hotei, Inari, Izanagi and Izanami, Jizo Bosatsu, Jurojin, Kagutsuchi, Kamado-No-Kami, Kami, Kawa-No-Kami, Kaya-Nu-Hima, Kishijoten, Kishi-Mojin, Kunitokotatchi, Marici, Monju-Bosatsu, Nai-No-Kami, No-Il Ja-Dae, O-Kuni-Nushi, Omoigane, Raiden, Shine-Tsu-Hiko, Shoten, Susa-no-wo, Tajika-no-mikoto, Tsuki-yomi, Uka no Mitanna, Uke-mochi, Uso-dori, Uzume, Wakahirume, Yainato-Hnneno-Mikoi, Yama-No-Kami, Yama-no-Karni, Yaya-Zakurai, Yuki-Onne

    India (43)
    Agni, Ammavaru, Asuras, Banka-Mundi, Brihaspati, Budhi Pallien, Candi, Challalamma, Chinnintamma, Devas, Dyaush, Gauri-Sankar, Grhadevi, Gujeswari, Indra, Kali, Lohasur Devi, Mayavel, Mitra, Prajapati, Puchan, Purandhi, Rakshas, Rudrani, Rumina, Samundra, Sarasvati, Savitar, Siva (Shiva), Soma, Sura, Surabhi, Tulsi, Ushas, Vata, Visvamitra, Vivasvat, Vritra, Waghai Devi, Yaparamma, Yayu, Zumiang Nui, Diti

    Other Asian: (31)
    Dewi Shri, Po Yan Dari, Shuzanghu, Antaboga, Yakushi Nyorai, Mulhalmoni, Tankun, Yondung Halmoni, Aryong Jong, Quan Yin , Tengri, Uminai-gami, Kamado-No-Kami, Kunitokotatchi, Giri Devi, Dewi Nawang Sasih, Brag-srin-mo, Samanta-Bhadra, Sangs-rgyas-mkh�, Sengdroma, Sgeg-mo-ma, Tho-og, Ui Tango, Yum-chen-mo, Zas-ster-ma-dmar-mo, Chandra, Dyaus, Ratri, Rodasi, Vayu, Au-Co

    African: 250 Gods, Demigods and First Men
    Abassi , Abuk , Adu Ogyinae , Ag� , Agwe , Aida Wedo , Ajalamo, Aje, Ajok, Akonadi, Akongo, Akuj, Amma, Anansi, Asase Yaa, Ashiakle, Atai , Ayaba, Aziri, Baatsi, Bayanni, Bele Alua, Bomo rambi, Bosumabla, Buk, Buku, Bumba, Bunzi, Buruku, Cagn, Candit, Cghene, Coti, Damballah-Wedo, Dan, Deng, Domfe, Dongo, Edinkira, Ef�, Egungun-oya, Eka Abassi, Elephant Girl Mbombe, Emayian, Enekpe, En-Kai, Eseasar, Eshu, Esu, Fa, Faran, Faro, Fatouma, Fidi Mukullu, Fon, Gleti, Gonzuole, G�, Gua, Gulu, Gunab, Hammadi, H�biesso, Iku, Ilankaka, Imana, Iruwa, Isaywa, Juok, Kazooba, Khakaba, Khonvum, Kibuka, Kintu, Leb�, Leza, Libanza, Lituolone, Loko, Marwe, Massim Biambe, Mawu-Lisa (Leza), Mboze, Mebeli, Minepa, Moombi, Mukameiguru, Mukasa, Muluku, Mulungu, Mwambu, Nai, Nambi, Nana Buluku, Nanan-Bouclou, Nenaunir, Ng Ai, Nyaliep, Nyamb�, Nyankopon, Nyasaye, Nzame, Oboto, Obumo, Odudua-Orishala, Ogun, Olokun, Olorun, Orisha Nla, Orunmila, Osanyin, Oshe, Osun, Oya, Phebele, Pokot-Suk, Ralubumbha, Rugaba, Ruhanga, Ryangombe, Sagbata, Shagpona, Shango, Sopona, Tano, Thixo, Tilo, Tokoloshi, Tsui, Tsui'goab, Umvelinqangi, Unkulunkulu, Utixo, Wak, Wamara, Wantu Su, Wele, Were, Woto, Xevioso, Yangombi, Yemonja, Ymoa, Ymoja, Yoruba, Zambi, Zanahary , Zinkibaru,

    Australian: 93 Gods, Goddesses and Places in the Dreamtime:
    Alinga, Anjea, Apunga, Arahuta, Ariki, Arohirohi, Bamapana, Banaitja, Bara, Barraiya, Biame, Bila, Boaliri, Bobbi-bobbi, Bunbulama, Bunjil, Cunnembeille, Daramulum, Dilga, Djanggawul Sisters, Eingana, Erathipa, Gidja , Gnowee, Haumia, Hine Titama, Ingridi, Julana, Julunggul, Junkgowa, Karora, Kunapipi-Kalwadi-Kadjara, Lia, Madalait, Makara, Nabudi, Palpinkalare, Papa, Rangi, Rongo, Tane, Tangaroa, Tawhiri-ma-tea, Tomituka, Tu, Ungamilia, Walo, Waramurungundi, Wati Kutjarra, Wawalag Sisters, Wuluwaid, Wuragag, Wuriupranili, Wurrunna, Yhi,

    Buddhism: 10 Gods and Relatives of God
    Aizen-Myoo, Ajima,Dai-itoku-Myoo, Fudo-Myoo, Gozanze-Myoo, Gundari-Myoo, Hariti, Kongo-Myoo, Kujaku-Myoo, Ni-O,

    Carribean: 62 Gods, Monsters and Vodun Spirits:
    Agaman Nibo , Agwe, Agweta, Ah Uaynih, Aida Wedo , Atabei , Ayida , Ayizan, Azacca, Baron Samedi, Ulrich, Ellegua, Ogun, Ochosi, Chango, Itaba, Amelia, Christalline, Clairm�, Clairmezin�, Coatrischie, Damballah , Emanjah, Erzuli, Erzulie, Ezili, Ghede, Guabancex, Guabonito, Guamaonocon, Imanje, Karous, Laloue-diji, Legba, Loa, Loco, Maitresse Amelia , Mapiangueh, Marie-aim�e, Marinette, Mombu, Marassa, Nana Buruku, Oba, Obtala, Ochu, Ochumare, Oddudua, Ogoun, Olokum, Olosa, Oshun, Oya, Philomena, Sir�ne, The Diablesse, Itaba, Tsilah, Ursule, Vierge, Yemaya , Zaka,

    Celtic: 166 Gods, Goddesses, Divine Kings and Pagan Saints:
    Abarta, Abna, Abnoba, Aine, Airetech,Akonadi, Amaethon, Ameathon, An Cailleach, Andraste, Antenociticus, Aranrhod, Arawn, Arianrod, Artio, Badb,Balor, Banbha, Becuma, Belatucadros, Belatu-Cadros, Belenus, Beli,Belimawr, Belinus, Bendigeidfran, Bile, Blathnat, Blodeuwedd, Boann, Bodus,Bormanus, Borvo, Bran, Branwen, Bres, Brigid, Brigit, Caridwen, Carpantus,Cathbadh, Cecht, Cernach, Cernunnos, Cliodna, Cocidius, Conchobar, Condatis, Cormac,Coronus,Cosunea, Coventina, Crarus,Creidhne, Creirwy, Cu Chulainn, Cu roi, Cuda, Cuill,Cyhiraeth,Dagda, Damona, Dana, Danu, D'Aulnoy,Dea Artio, Deirdre , Dewi, Dian, Diancecht, Dis Pater, Donn, Dwyn, Dylan, Dywel,Efnisien, Elatha, Epona, Eriu, Esos, Esus, Eurymedon,Fedelma, Fergus, Finn, Fodla, Goewyn, Gog, Goibhniu, Govannon , Grainne, Greine,Gwydion, Gwynn ap Nudd, Herne, Hu'Gadarn, Keltoi,Keridwen, Kernunnos,Ler, Lir, Lleu Llaw Gyffes, Lludd, Llyr, Llywy, Luchta, Lug, Lugh,Lugus, Mabinogion,Mabon, Mac Da Tho, Macha, Magog, Manannan, Manawydan, Maponos, Math, Math Ap Mathonwy, Medb, Moccos,Modron, Mogons, Morrig, Morrigan, Nabon,Nantosuelta, Naoise, Nechtan, Nedoledius,Nehalennia, Nemhain, Net,Nisien, Nodens, Noisi, Nuada, Nwywre,Oengus, Ogma, Ogmios, Oisin, Pach,Partholon, Penard Dun, Pryderi, Pwyll, Rhiannon, Rosmerta, Samhain, Segidaiacus, Sirona, Sucellus, Sulis, Taliesin, Taranis, Teutates, The Horned One,The Hunt, Treveni,Tyne, Urien, Ursula of the Silver Host, Vellaunus, Vitiris, White Lady,

    Egyptian: 85 Gods, Gods Incarnate and Personified Divine Forces:
    Amaunet, Amen, Amon, Amun, Anat, Anqet, Antaios, Anubis, Anuket, Apep, Apis, Astarte, Aten, Aton, Atum, Bastet, Bat, Buto, Duamutef, Duamutef, Hapi, Har-pa-khered, Hathor, Hauhet, Heket, Horus, Huh, Imset, Isis, Kauket, Kebechsenef, Khensu, Khepri, Khnemu, Khnum, Khonsu, Kuk, Maahes, Ma'at, Mehen, Meretseger, Min, Mnewer, Mut, Naunet, Nefertem, Neith, Nekhbet, Nephthys, Nun, Nut, Osiris, Ptah, Ra , Re, Renenet, Sakhmet, Satet, Seb, Seker, Sekhmet, Serapis, Serket, Set, Seth, Shai, Shu, Shu, Sia, Sobek, Sokar, Tefnut, Tem, Thoth,

    Hellenes (Greek) Tradition (540 Gods, Demigods, Divine Bastards)
    Acidalia, Aello, Aesculapius, Agathe, Agdistis, Ageleia, Aglauros, Agne, Agoraia, Agreia, Agreie, Agreiphontes, Agreus, Agrios, Agrotera, Aguieus, Aidoneus, Aigiokhos, Aigletes, Aigobolos, Ainia,Ainippe, Aithuia , Akesios, Akraia, Aktaios, Alalkomene, Alasiotas, Alcibie, Alcinoe, Alcippe, Alcis,Alea, Alexikakos, Aligena, Aliterios, Alkaia, Amaltheia, Ambidexter, Ambologera, Amynomene,Anaduomene, Anaea, Anax, Anaxilea, Androdameia,Andromache, Andromeda, Androphonos, Anosia, Antandre,Antania, Antheus, Anthroporraistes, Antianara, Antianeira, Antibrote, Antimache, Antimachos, Antiope,Antiopeia, Aoide, Apatouria, Aphneius, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apotropaios, Areia, Areia, Areion, Areopagite, Ares, Areto, Areximacha,Argus, Aridnus,Aristaios, Aristomache, Arkhegetes, Arktos, Arretos, Arsenothelys, Artemis, Asclepius, Asklepios, Aspheleios, Asteria, Astraeos , Athene, Auxites, Avaris, Axios, Axios Tauros,Bakcheios, Bakchos, Basileus, Basilis, Bassareus, Bauros, Boophis, Boreas , Botryophoros, Boukeros, Boulaia, Boulaios, Bremusa,Bromios, Byblis,Bythios, Caliope, Cedreatis, Celaneo, centaur, Cerberus, Charidotes, Charybdis, Chimera, Chloe, Chloris , Choreutes, Choroplekes, Chthonios, Clete, Clio, clotho,Clyemne, cockatrice, Crataeis, Custos, Cybebe, Cybele, Cyclops, Daphnaia, Daphnephoros, Deianeira, Deinomache, Delia, Delios, Delphic, Delphinios, Demeter, Dendrites, Derimacheia,Derinoe, Despoina, Dikerotes, Dimeter, Dimorphos, Dindymene, Dioktoros, Dionysos, Discordia, Dissotokos, Dithyrambos, Doris, Dryope,Echephyle,Echidna, Eiraphiotes, Ekstatophoros, Eleemon, Eleuthereus, Eleutherios, Ennosigaios, Enodia, Enodios, Enoplios, Enorches, Enualios, Eos , Epaine, Epidotes, Epikourios, Epipontia, Epitragidia, Epitumbidia, Erato, Ergane, Eribromios, Erigdoupos, Erinus, Eriobea, Eriounios, Eriphos, Eris, Eros,Euanthes, Euaster, Eubouleus, Euboulos, Euios, Eukhaitos, Eukleia, Eukles, Eumache, Eunemos, Euplois, Euros , Eurybe,Euryleia, Euterpe, Fates,Fortuna, Gaia, Gaieokhos, Galea, Gamelia, Gamelios, Gamostolos, Genetor, Genetullis, Geryon, Gethosynos, giants, Gigantophonos, Glaukopis, Gorgons, Gorgopis, Graiae, griffin, Gynaikothoinas, Gynnis, Hagisilaos, Hagnos, Haides, Harmothoe, harpy, Hegemone, Hegemonios, Hekate, Hekatos, Helios, Hellotis, Hephaistia, Hephaistos, Hera, Heraios, Herakles, Herkeios, Hermes, Heros Theos, Hersos, Hestia, Heteira, Hiksios, Hipp, Hippia, Hippios, Hippoi Athanatoi, Hippolyte, Hippolyte II, Hippomache,Hippothoe, Horkos, Hugieia, Hupatos, Hydra, Hypate, Hyperborean, Hypsipyle, Hypsistos, Iakchos, Iatros, Idaia, Invictus, Iphito,Ismenios, Ismenus,Itonia, Kabeiria, Kabeiroi, Kakia, Kallinikos, Kallipugos, Kallisti, Kappotas, Karneios, Karpophoros, Karytis, Kataibates, Katakhthonios, Kathatsios, Keladeine, Keraunos, Kerykes, Khalinitis, Khalkioikos, Kharmon, Khera, Khloe, Khlori,Khloris,Khruse, Khthonia, Khthonios, Kidaria, Kissobryos, Kissokomes, Kissos, Kitharodos, Kleidouchos, Kleoptoleme, Klymenos, Kore, Koruthalia, Korymbophoros, Kourotrophos, Kranaia, Kranaios, Krataiis, Kreousa, Kretogenes, Kriophoros, Kronides, Kronos,Kryphios, Ktesios, Kubebe, Kupris, Kuprogenes, Kurotrophos, Kuthereia, Kybele, Kydoime,Kynthia, Kyrios, Ladon, Lakinia, Lamia, Lampter, Laodoke, Laphria, Lenaios, Leukatas, Leukatas, Leukolenos, Leukophruene, Liknites, Limenia, Limnaios, Limnatis, Logios, Lokhia, Lousia, Loxias, Lukaios, Lukeios, Lyaios, Lygodesma, Lykopis, Lyseus, Lysippe, Maimaktes, Mainomenos, Majestas, Makar, Maleatas, Manikos, Mantis, Marpe, Marpesia, Medusa, Megale, Meilikhios, Melaina, Melainis, Melanaigis, Melanippe,Melete, Melousa, Melpomene, Melqart, Meses, Mimnousa, Minotaur, Mneme, Molpadia,Monogenes, Morpho, Morychos, Musagates, Musagetes, Nebrodes, Nephelegereta, Nereus,Nete, Nike, Nikephoros, Nomios, Nomius, Notos , Nyktelios, Nyktipolos, Nympheuomene, Nysios, Oiketor, Okyale, Okypous, Olumpios, Omadios, Ombrios, Orithia,Orius,Ortheia, Orthos, Ourania, Ourios, Paelemona, Paian, Pais, Palaios, Pallas, Pan Megas, Panakhais, Pandemos, Pandrosos, Pantariste, Parthenos, PAsianax, Pasiphaessa, Pater, Pater, Patroos, Pegasus, Pelagia, Penthesilea, Perikionios, Persephone, Petraios, Phanes, Phanter, Phatria, Philios, Philippis, Philomeides, Phoebe, Phoebus, Phoenix, Phoibos, Phosphoros, Phratrios, Phutalmios, Physis, Pisto, Plouton, Polemusa,Poliakhos, Polias, Polieus, Polumetis, Polydektes, Polygethes, Polymnia, Polymorphos, Polyonomos, Porne, Poseidon, Potnia Khaos, Potnia Pheron, Promakhos, Pronoia, Propulaios, Propylaia, Proserpine, Prothoe, Protogonos, Prytaneia, Psychopompos, Puronia, Puthios, Pyrgomache, Python, Rhea, Sabazios, Salpinx, satyr, Saxanus, Scyleia,Scylla, sirens, Skeptouchos, Smintheus, Sophia, Sosipolis, Soter, Soteria, Sphinx, Staphylos, Sthenias, Sthenios, Strife, Summakhia, Sykites, Syzygia, Tallaios, Taureos, Taurokeros, Taurophagos, Tauropolos, Tauropon, Tecmessa, Teisipyte, Teleios, Telepyleia,Teletarches, Terpsichore, Thalestris, Thalia, The Dioskouroi, Theos, Theritas, Thermodosa, Thraso, Thyonidas, Thyrsophoros, Tmolene, Toxaris, Toxis, Toxophile,Trevia, Tricephalus, Trieterikos, Trigonos, Trismegestos, Tritogeneia, Tropaios, Trophonius,Tumborukhos, Tyche, Typhon, Urania, Valasca, Xanthippe, Xenios, Zagreus, Zathos, Zephryos , Zeus, Zeus Katakhthonios, Zoophoros

    Native American: 711 Gods, Heroes, and Anthropomorphized Facets of Nature:
    Aakuluujjusi, Ab Kin zoc, Abaangui , Ababinili , Ac Yanto, Acan, Acat, Achiyalatopa , Acna, Acolmiztli, Acolnahuacatl, Acuecucyoticihuati, Adamisil Wedo, Adaox , Adekagagwaa , Adlet , Adlivun, Agloolik , Aguara , Ah Bolom Tzacab, Ah Cancum, Ah Chun Caan, Ah Chuy Kak, Ah Ciliz, Ah Cun Can, Ah Cuxtal, Ah hulneb, Ah Kin, Ah Kumix Uinicob, Ah Mun, Ah Muzencab, Ah Patnar Uinicob, Ah Peku, Ah Puch, Ah Tabai, Ah UincirDz'acab, Ah Uuc Ticab, Ah Wink-ir Masa, Ahau Chamahez, Ahau-Kin, Ahmakiq, Ahnt Alis Pok', Ahnt Kai', Aholi , Ahsonnutli , Ahuic, Ahulane, Aiauh, Aipaloovik , Ajbit, Ajilee , Ajtzak, Akbaalia , Akba-atatdia , Akhlut , Akhushtal, Akna , Akycha, Alaghom Naom Tzentel, Albino Spirit animals , Alektca , Alignak, Allanque , Allowat Sakima , Alom, Alowatsakima , Amaguq , Amala , Amimitl, Amitolane, Amotken , Andaokut , Andiciopec , Anerneq , Anetlacualtiliztli, Angalkuq , Angpetu Wi, Anguta, Angwusnasomtaka , Ani Hyuntikwalaski , Animal spirits , Aningan, Aniwye , Anog Ite , Anpao, Apanuugak , Apicilnic , Apikunni , Apotamkin , Apoyan Tachi , Apozanolotl, Apu Punchau, Aqalax , Arendiwane , Arnakua'gsak , Asdiwal , Asgaya Gigagei, Asiaq , Asin , Asintmah, Atacokai , Atahensic, Aticpac Calqui Cihuatl, Atira, Atisokan , Atius Tirawa , Atl, Atlacamani, Atlacoya, Atlatonin, Atlaua, Atshen , Auilix, Aulanerk , Aumanil , Aunggaak , Aunt Nancy , Awaeh Yegendji , Awakkule , Awitelin Tsta , Awonawilona, Ayauhteotl, Azeban, Baaxpee , Bacabs, Backlum Chaam, Bagucks , Bakbakwalanooksiwae , Balam, Baldhead , Basamacha , Basket Woman , Bead Spitter , Bear , Bear Medicine Woman , Bear Woman , Beaver , Beaver Doctor , Big Heads, Big Man Eater , Big Tail , Big Twisted Flute , Bikeh hozho, Bitol, Black Hactcin , Black Tamanous , Blind Boy , Blind Man , Blood Clot Boy , Bloody Hand , Blue-Jay , Bmola , Bolontiku, Breathmaker, Buffalo , Buluc Chabtan, Burnt Belly , Burnt Face , Butterfly , Cabaguil, Cacoch, Cajolom, Cakulha, Camaxtli, Camozotz, Cannibal Grandmother , Cannibal Woman , Canotila , Capa , Caprakan, Ca-the-�a, Cauac, Centeotl, Centzonuitznaua, Cetan , Chac Uayab Xoc, Chac, Chahnameed , Chakwaina Okya, Chalchihuitlicue, Chalchiuhtlatonal, Chalchiutotolin, Chalmecacihuilt, Chalmecatl, Chamer, Changing Bear Woman , Changing Woman , Chantico, Chaob, Charred Body , Chepi , Chibiabos , Chibirias, Chiccan, Chicomecoatl, Chicomexochtli, Chiconahui, Chiconahuiehecatl, Chie, Child-Born-in-Jug , Chirakan, Chulyen , Cihuacoatl, Cin-an-ev , Cinteotl, Cipactli, Cirap� , Cit Chac Coh, Cit-Bolon-Tum, Citlalatonac, Citlalicue, Ciucoatl, Ciuteoteo, Cizin, Cliff ogre , Coatlicue, Cochimetl, Cocijo, Colel Cab, Colop U Uichkin, Copil, Coyolxauhqui, Coyopa, Coyote , Cripple Boy , Crow , Crow Woman , Cum hau, Cunawabi , Dagwanoenyent , Dahdahwat , Daldal , Deohako, Dhol , Diyin dine , Djien , Djigonasee , Dohkwibuhch , Dzalarhons , Dzalarhons, Eagentci , Eagle , Earth Shaman , Eeyeekalduk , Ehecatl, Ehlaumel , Eithinoha , Ekchuah, Enumclaw , Eototo, Esaugetuh Emissee , Esceheman, Eschetewuarha, Estanatlehi , Estasanatlehi , Estsanatlehi, Evaki, Evening Star, Ewah , Ewauna, Face , Faces of the Forests , False Faces , Famine , Fastachee , Fire Dogs , First Creator , First Man and First Woman, First Scolder , Flint Man , Flood , Flower Woman , Foot Stuck Child , Ga'an, Ga-gaah , Gahe, Galokwudzuwis , Gaoh, Gawaunduk, Geezhigo-Quae, Gendenwitha, Genetaska, Ghanan, Gitche Manitou, Glispa, Glooskap , Gluscabi , Gluskab , Gluskap, Godasiyo, Gohone , Great Seahouse, Greenmantle , Gucumatz, Gukumatz, Gunnodoyak, Gyhldeptis, Ha Wen Neyu , Hacauitz , Hacha'kyum, Hagondes , Hahgwehdiyu , Hamatsa , Hamedicu, Hanghepi Wi, Hantceiitehi , Haokah , Hastseoltoi, Hastshehogan , He'mask.as , Hen, Heyoka , Hiawatha , Hino, Hisakitaimisi, Hokhokw , Hotoru, Huehuecoyotl, Huehueteotl, Huitaca , Huitzilopochtli, Huixtocihuatl, Hummingbird, Hun hunahpu, Hun Pic Tok, Hunab Ku, Hunahpu Utiu, Hunahpu, Hunahpu-Gutch, Hunhau, Hurakan, Iatiku And Nautsiti, Ich-kanava , Ictinike , Idliragijenget , Idlirvirisong, Igaluk , Ignirtoq , Ikanam , Iktomi , Ilamatecuhtli, Illapa, Ilyap'a, i'noGo tied , Inti, Inua , Ioskeha , Ipalnemohuani, Isakakate, Ishigaq , Isitoq , Issitoq , Ite , Itzamn�, Itzananohk`u, Itzlacoliuhque, Itzli, Itzpapalotl, Ix Chebel Yax, Ixbalanque, Ixchel, Ixchup, Ixmucane, Ixpiyacoc, Ixtab, Ixtlilton, Ixtubtin, Ixzaluoh, Iya , Iyatiku , Iztaccihuatl, Iztacmixcohuatl, Jaguar Night, Jaguar Quitze, Jogah , Kaakwha , Kabun , Kabun , Kachinas, Kadlu , Ka-Ha-Si , Ka-Ha-Si , Kaik , Kaiti , Kan, Kana'ti and Selu , Kanati, Kan-u-Uayeyab, Kan-xib-yui, Kapoonis , Katsinas, Keelut , Ketchimanetowa, Ketq Skwaye, Kianto, Kigatilik , Kilya, K'in, Kinich Ahau, Kinich Kakmo, Kishelemukong , Kisin, Kitcki Manitou, Kmukamch , Kokopelli , Ko'lok , Kukulcan, Kushapatshikan , Kutni , Kutya'I , Kwakwakalanooksiwae , Kwatee , Kwekwaxa'we , Kwikumat , Kyoi , Lagua , Land Otter People , Lawalawa , Logobola , Loha, Lone Man , Long Nose , Loon , Loon Medicine , Loon Woman , Loo-wit, Macaw Woman, Macuilxochitl, Maho Peneta, Mahucutah, Makenaima , Malesk , Malina , Malinalxochi, Malsum, Malsumis , Mam, Mama Cocha, Man in moon , Manabozho , Manetuwak , Mani'to, Manitou , Mannegishi , Manu, Masaya, Masewi , Master of Life , Master Of Winds, Matshishkapeu , Mavutsinim , Mayahuel, Medeoulin , Mekala , Menahka, Meteinuwak , Metztli, Mexitl, Michabo, Mictecacihuatl, Mictlan, Mictlantecuhtli, Mikchich , Mikumwesu , Mitnal, Mixcoatl, Mongwi Kachinum , Morning Star, Motho and Mungo , Mulac, Muut , Muyingwa , Nacon, Nagenatzani, Nagi Tanka , Nagual, Nahual, Nakaw�, Nanabojo, Nanabozho , Nanabush, Nanahuatzin, Nanautzin, Nanih Waiya, Nankil'slas , Nanook , Naum, Negafook , Nerrivik , Nesaru, Nianque , Nishanu , Nohochacyum, Nokomis, Nootaikok , North Star, Nujalik , Nukatem , Nunne Chaha , Ocasta, Ockabewis, Odzihozo , Ohtas , Oklatabashih, Old Man , Olelbis, Omacatl, Omecihuatl, Ometecuhtli, Onatha , One Tail of Clear Hair , Oonawieh Unggi , Opochtli, Oshadagea, Owl Woman , Pah , Pah, Paiowa, Pakrokitat , Pana , Patecatl, Pautiwa, Paynal, Pemtemweha , Piasa , Pikv�hahirak , Pinga , Pomola , Pot-tilter , Prairie Falcon , Ptehehincalasanwin , Pukkeenegak , Qaholom, Qakma, Qiqirn , Quaoar , Quetzalcoatl, Qumu , Quootis-hooi, Rabbit, Ragno, Raven, Raw Gums , Rukko, Sagamores , Sagapgia , Sanopi , Saynday , Sedna, Selu, Shakuru, Sharkura, Shilup Chito Osh, Shrimp house, Sila , Sint Holo , Sio humis, Sisiutl , Skan , Snallygaster , Sosondowah , South Star, Spider Woman , Sta-au , Stonecoats , Sun, Sungrey , Ta Tanka , Tabaldak , Taime , Taiowa , Talocan, Tans , Taqwus , Tarhuhyiawahku, Tarquiup Inua , Tate , Tawa, Tawiscara, Ta'xet , Tcisaki , Tecciztecatl, Tekkeitserktock, Tekkeitsertok , Telmekic , Teoyaomqui, Tepeu, Tepeyollotl, Teteoinnan, Tezcatlipoca, Thobadestchin, Thoume', Thunder , Thunder Bird , Tieholtsodi, Tihtipihin , Tirawa , Tirawa Atius, Tlacolotl, Tlahuixcalpantecuhtli, Tlaloc, Tlaltecuhtli, Tlauixcalpantecuhtli, Tlazolteotl, Tohil, Tokpela , Tonantzin , Tonatiuh, To'nenile, Tonenili , Tootega , Torngasak, Torngasoak , Trickster/Transformer , True jaguar, Tsentsa, Tsichtinako, Tsohanoai Tsonoqwa , Tsul 'Kalu , Tulugaak , Tumas , Tunkan ingan, Turquoise Boy , Twin Thunder Boys, Txamsem , Tzakol, Tzitzimime, Uazzale , Uchtsiti, Ud� , Uentshukumishiteu , Ueuecoyotl, Ugly Way , Ugni , Uhepono , Uitzilopochtli, Ukat , Underwater Panthers , Unhcegila , Unipkaat , Unk, Unktomi , Untunktahe , Urcaguary, Utea , Uwashil , Vassagijik , Voltan, Wabosso , Wabun , Wachabe, Wah-Kah-Nee, Wakan , Wakanda , Wakan-Tanka, Wakinyan , Wan niomi , Wanagi , Wananikwe , Watavinewa , Water babies , Waukheon , We-gyet , Wemicus , Wendigo , Wentshukumishiteu , White Buffalo Woman, Whope , Wi , Wicahmunga , Wihmunga , Windigo, Winonah, Wisagatcak , Wisagatcak, Wishpoosh , Wiyot , Wovoka , Wuya , Xaman Ek, Xelas , Xibalba, Xilonen, Xipe Totec, Xiuhcoatl, Xiuhtecuhtli, Xiuhtecutli, Xmucane, Xochipili , Xochiquetzal, Xocotl, Xolotl, Xpiyacoc, Xpuch And Xtah, Yacatecuhtli, Yaluk, Yanauluha , Ya-o-gah , Yeba Ka, Yebaad, Yehl , Yeitso, Yiacatecuhtli, Yolkai Estsan, Yoskeha , Yum Kaax, Yuwipi , Zaramama, Zipaltonal, Zotz,

    Norse, 111 Deities, Giants and Monsters:
    Aegir, Aesir, Alfrigg, Audumbla, Aurgelmir, Balder, Berchta, Bergelmir, Bor, Bragi, Brisings, Buri, Etin, Fenris, Forseti, Frey, Freyja, Frigga, Gefion, Gerda, Gode, Gymir, Harke, Heimdall, Hel, Hermod, Hodur, Holda, Holle, Honir, Hymir, Idun, Jormungandr, Ljolsalfs, Loki, Magni, Mimir, Mistarblindi, Muspel, Nanna, Nanni, Nerthus, Njord, Norns, Odin, Perchta, Ran, Rig, Segyn, Sif, Skadi, Skirnir, Skuld, Sleipnir, Surt, Svadilfari, tanngniotr, tanngrisnr, Thiassi, Thor, Thrud, Thrudgelmir, Thrym, Thurs, Tyr, Uller, Urd, Vali, Vali, Valkyries, Vanir, Ve, Verdandi, Vidar, Wode, Ymir

    Pacific islands: 99 Deities, Demigods and Immortal Monsters:
    Abeguwo, Abere, Adaro, Afekan, Ai Tupua'i, 'Aiaru, Ala Muki, Alalahe, Alii Menehune, Aluluei, Aruaka, Asin, Atanea, Audjal, Aumakua, Babamik, Bakoa, Barong, Batara Kala, Buring Une, Darago, Dayang-Raca, De Ai, Dogai, Enda Semangko, Faumea, Giriputri, Goga, Haumea, Hiiaka', Hina, Hine, Hoa-Tapu, 'Imoa, Io, Kanaloa, Kanaloa, Kane, Kapo, Kava, Konori, Ku, Kuhuluhulumanu, Kuklikimoku, Kukoae, Ku'ula, Laka, Laulaati, Lono, Mahiuki, MakeMake, Marruni, Maru, Maui, Melu, Menehune, Moeuhane, MOO-LAU, Ndauthina, Ne Te-reere, Nevinbimbaau, Ngendei, Nobu, Oro, Ove, Paka'a, Papa, Pele, Quat, Rangi, Rati, Rati-mbati-ndua, Ratu-Mai-Mbula, Rua, Ruahatu, Saning Sri, Ta'aroa, Taaroa, Tamakaia, Tane, Tanemahuta, Tangaroa, Tawhaki, Tiki, Tinirau, Tu, Tuli, Turi-a-faumea, Uira, Ukupanipo, Ulupoka, Umboko Indra, Vanuatu, Wahini-Hal, Walutahanga, Wari-Ma-Te-Takere, Whaitiri, Whatu, Wigan,

    South American: 53 Deities, Demigods, Beings of Divine Substance:
    Abaangui, Aclla, Akewa, Asima Si, Atoja, Auchimalgen, Axomama, Bachu�, Beru, Bochica, Boiuna, Calounger, Catequil, Cavillaca, Ceiuci, Chasca, Chie, Cocomama, Gaumansuri, Huitaca, Iae, Ilyap'a, Ina, Inti, Ituana, Jamaina , Jandira, Jarina, Jubbu-jang-sangne, Ka-ata-killa, Kilya, Kuat, Kun, Luandinha, Lupi, Mama Allpa, Mama Quilla, Mamacocha, Manco Capac, Maret-Jikky, Maretkhmakniam, Mariana, Oshossi, Pachamac, Pachamama, Perimb�, Rainha Barba, Si, Supai, Top�tine, Viracocha, Yemanja (Imanje), Zume Topana.

    If you choose to believe in a false god... you will burn in hell !

    God had no time to create time.


    Brian37
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    doc101 wrote: Vastet

    doc101 wrote:
    Vastet wrote:

    Rational Faith wrote:
    Life requires an all-powerful being, God, to even exist. Life is too complex to simply be something that fell into place. The replication of DNA to formation and cooperation of cells. The very beginning of matter requires God.

    Matter cannot have been created and therefore your god is a delusion.

     

    i'm sorry if i'm being ignorant of this, but it is simply too late for me to delve into deeper threads in this forum

     

    but why cannot matter be created? If i recall (and please correct me if i am wrong for saying this) Nuclear chemistry has defied the law of matter in saying that matter cannot be created nor destroyed in any process; (i apologize in advance if this post does not make sense)

    Quote:
    but why cannot matter be created?

    First you already answered the question at the end of that paragraph.

    Secondly, what the theist never wants to ask, be they Muslim, Jew, Christian ect ect ect is this, "Why do we need a being to do it?"

    The universe although we dont know everything about it, we dont have to assume bearded men in the sky vs a man with a pitchfork. Suprman vs Kriptonite claims  rooted in ancient mythology are not the way to mesure life or the universe. If you dont know something just say, "I dont know". 

    "We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
    Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under BrianJames Rational Poet also on twitter under Brianrrs37


    ShaunPhilly
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    St. Michael,  I've lost

    St. Michael,

     I've lost any respect i had for you at this point.  I assumed--I don't know why--that someone who was articulate and educated enough to talk of philosophy would not make the egregious errors in thinking you have demonstrated in the last day or so.  You are a bigot.  You dislike atheists based on a complete and utter lack of comprehension of the implications of the lack of belief in a god.  You do so because you have been mis-lead as to these implications because you belong to a group that thinks taht they have the monopoly or logic, morality, and meaning.

    Atheism has no faith.  In fact, it cannot have faith my definition.  There are atheists of all personality types and beliefs.  They differ in being liberal,. conservative, libertarian, socialist, communist, capitalist, etc.  There is one and only one thing that unifies all of these people; thus, this thing  is the definition of 'atheist' because it is the one and only thing that they all share.  All atheists lack a belief in any gods.  Some go further to claim that no god exists, some simply say it cannot be known for sure.  But the ONLY thing that they all share is a mere lack of belief.  

    A lack of belief cannot be faith because it isn't even belief in the first place; it is the lack thereof.   

    Meaning and morality are indeed subjective.  They are subjective because they are judged by subjects--us.  That's what the word 'subjective' means.  You believe that these things come from an absolute standard, that's fine.  The problem is that you then state that unless they are absolute, then they are meaningless.  This is a false dichotomy, and betrays a serious lack of understanding of the philosophical issues of meaning and ethics.  There really is no point in discussing this with you when you are blind to any perspective other than your own. 

    You lack subtlety of thought, the ability to step outside of a severely perochial perspective, and you are not contributing anything of worth to the discussion nor learning ours.  I don't expect you to necessarily agree with any of our positions, but I do expect you to at least make an effort to understand them.  In this you have seemed to fail, and perhaps that is our fault.  

    I see no point in continuing this farce without significant growth on your part.  I hope that, if you intend to be a leader of future people with questions, you are able to at least understand the non-Catholic worldview to gain some perspective. Otherwise you will merely perpetuate the cancer of Catholic perochialism, bias, and arrogance onto another generation.

     I don't say this to show dislike for Catholics or even priests, as there are a few that I like very much, including a priest that I have worked with that I've had some long philosophical conversations with.  I like these people because despite the fact that they disagree with me vehemently, they understand my point of view and don't make the mistaes you have made here.

    Shaun 

    I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.


    zarathustra
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    You did not bother to

    You did not bother to respond to my post. I am only harping upon this, because you have yet again said: "...faith is rational and bases itself upon reason", yet have not really bothered to back this up, as I was calling upon you to do. I imagine several post down the way, you will claim that you proved this long ago, when in fact you haven't. So, once again:

    1) Explain why you didn't include Allah in your "first cause" club, since it is pretty much the same god as that observed by jews, protestants, catholics. Abraham, Moses, Jesus, are all part of the Muslim belief system.

    2) How (using your reason), you exclude the other "first cause" deities from the circle of legitimacy,

    3) Give an example of a deity that doesn't make the cut as a "first cause" -- you said this applies to "most" other religions, so this should not be too hard.

    4) How (using once again, your reason), you finally conclude that Catholicism is the one true way to go, and how Judaism and Protestantism, while part of the "club", are still off the mark.

     

    Perhaps this seems as a very convoluted exercise, but I think it is necessary to see you follow through entirely on one of your claims - this one having to do with faith being rational. If you do not follow through to a clear and concise conclusion on this (or any of your arguments), I think it is probably best you discontinue posting in these forums, because it appears we can't learn anything from you, nor you from us.

    Peace

    There are no theists on operating tables.

    πππ†
    π†††


    American Atheist
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    Pikachu wrote: What if one

    Pikachu wrote:

    What if one of these gods is the right god ?

    Mid-East: (169)
    A, Adad, Adapa, Adrammelech, Aeon, Agasaya, Aglibol, Ahriman, Ahura Mazda, Ahurani, Ai-ada, Al-Lat, Aja, Aka, Alalu, Al-Lat, Amm, Al-Uzza (El-'Ozza or Han-Uzzai), An, Anahita, Anath (Anat), Anatu, Anbay, Anshar, Anu, Anunitu, An-Zu, Apsu, Aqhat, Ararat, Arinna, Asherali, Ashnan, Ashtoreth, Ashur, Astarte, Atar, Athirat, Athtart, Attis, Aya, Baal (Bel), Baalat (Ba'Alat), Baau, Basamum, Beelsamin, Belit-Seri, Beruth, Borak, Broxa, Caelestis, Cassios, Lebanon, Antilebanon, and Brathy, Chaos, Chemosh, Cotys, Cybele, Daena, Daevas, Dagon, Damkina, Dazimus, Derketo, Dhat-Badan, Dilmun, Dumuzi (Du'uzu), Duttur, Ea, El, Endukugga, Enki, Enlil, Ennugi, Eriskegal, Ereshkigal (Allatu), Eshara, Eshmun, Firanak, Fravashi, Gatamdug, Genea, Genos, Gestinanna, Gula, Hadad, Hannahanna, Hatti, Hea, Hiribi, The Houri, Humban, Innana, Ishkur, Ishtar, Ithm, Jamshid or Jamshyd, Jehovah, Jesus, Kabta, Kadi, Kamrusepas, Ki (Kiki), Kingu, Kolpia, Kothar-u-Khasis, Lahar, Marduk, Mari, Meni, Merodach, Misor, Moloch, Mot, Mushdama, Mylitta, Naamah, Nabu (Nebo), Nairyosangha, Nammu, Namtaru, Nanna, Nebo, Nergal, Nidaba, Ninhursag or Nintu, Ninlil, Ninsar, Nintur, Ninurta, Pa, Qadshu, Rapithwin, Resheph (Mikal or Mekal), Rimmon, Sadarnuna, Shahar, Shalim, Shamish, Shapshu, Sheger, Sin, Siris (Sirah), Taautos, Tammuz, Tanit, Taru, Tasimmet, Telipinu, Tiamat, Tishtrya, Tsehub, Utnapishtim, Utu, Wurusemu, Yam, Yarih (Yarikh), Yima, Zaba, Zababa, Zam, Zanahary (Zanaharibe), Zarpandit, Zarathustra, Zatavu, Zazavavindrano, Ziusudra, Zu (Imdugud), Zurvan

    China (170):
    Ba, Caishen, Chang Fei, Chang Hsien, Chang Pan, Ch'ang Tsai, Chao san-Niang, Chao T'eng-k'ang, Chen Kao, Ch'eng Huang, Cheng San-Kung, Cheng Yuan-ho, Chi Po, Chien-Ti, Chih Jih, Chih Nii, Chih Nu, Ch'ih Sung-tzu, Ching Ling Tzu, Ch'ing Lung, Chin-hua Niang-niang, Chio Yuan-Tzu, Chou Wang, Chu Niao, Chu Ying, Chuang-Mu, Chu-jung, Chun T'i, Ch'ung Ling-yu, Chung Liu, Chung-kuei, Chung-li Ch'�an, Di Jun, Fan K'uei, Fei Lien, Feng Pho-Pho, Fengbo, Fu Hsing, Fu-Hsi, Fu-Pao, Gaomei, Guan Di, Hao Ch'iu, Heng-o, Ho Po (Ping-I), Hou Chi, Hou T'u, Hsi Ling-su, Hsi Shih, Hsi Wang Mu, Hsiao Wu, Hsieh T'ien-chun, Hsien Nung, Hsi-shen, Hsu Ch'ang, Hsuan Wen-hua, Huang Ti, Huang T'ing, Huo Pu, Hu-Shen, Jen An, Jizo Bosatsu, Keng Yen-cheng, King Wan, Ko Hsien-Weng, Kuan Ti, Kuan Ti, Kuei-ku Tzu, Kuo Tzu-i, Lai Cho, Lao Lang, Lei Kung, Lei Tsu, Li Lao-chun, Li Tien, Liu Meng, Liu Pei, Lo Shen, Lo Yu, Lo-Tsu Ta-Hsien, Lu Hsing, Lung Yen, Lu-pan, Ma-Ku, Mang Chin-i, Mang Shen, Mao Meng, Men Shen, Miao Hu, Mi-lo Fo, Ming Shang, Nan-chi Hsien-weng, Niu Wang, Nu Wa, Nu-kua, Pa, Pa Cha, Pai Chung, Pai Liu-Fang, Pai Yu, P'an Niang, P'an-Chin-Lien, Pao Yuan-ch'uan, Phan Ku, P'i Chia-Ma, Pien Ho, San Kuan, Sao-ch'ing Niang, Sarudahiko, Shang Chien, Shang Ti, She chi, Shen Hsui-Chih, Shen Nung, Sheng Mu, Shih Liang, Shiu Fang, Shou-lao, Shun I Fu-jen, Sien-Tsang, Ssu-ma Hsiang-ju, Sun Pin, Sun Ssu-miao, Sung-Chiang, Tan Chu, T'ang Ming Huang, Tao Kung, T'ien Fei, Tien Hou, Tien Mu, Ti-tsang, Tsai Shen, Ts'an Nu, Ts'ang Chien, Tsao Chun, Tsao-Wang, T'shai-Shen, Tung Chun, T'ung Chung-chung, T'ung Lai-yu, Tung Lu, T'ung Ming, Tzu-ku Shen, Wa, Wang Ta-hsien, Wang-Mu-Niang-Niang, Weiwobo, Wen-ch'ang, Wu-tai Yuan-shuai, Xi Hou, Xi Wangmu, Xiu Wenyin, Yanwang, Yaoji, Yen-lo, Yen-Lo-Wang, Yi, Yu, Yu Ch'iang, Yu Huang, Yun-T'ung, Yu-Tzu, Zaoshen, Zhang Xi, , Zhin�, , Zhongguei, , Zigu Shen, , Zisun, Ch'ang-O

    balto slavic: (125)
    Aba-khatun, Aigiarm, Ajysyt, Alkonost, Almoshi, Altan-Telgey, Ama, Anapel, As-ava, Ausaitis, Austeja, Ayt'ar, Baba Yaga (Jezi Baba), Belobog (Belun), Boldogasszony, Breksta, Bugady Musun, Chernobog (Crnobog, Czarnobog, Czerneboch, Cernobog), Cinei-new, Colleda (Koliada), Cuvto-ava, Dali, Darzu-mate, Dazhbog, Debena, Devana, Diiwica (Dilwica), Doda (Dodola), Dolya, Dragoni, Dugnai, Dunne Enin, Edji, Elena, Erce, Etugen, Falvara, The Fates, The Fatit, Gabija, Ganiklis, Giltine, Hotogov Mailgan, Hov-ava, Iarila, Isten, Ja-neb'a, Jedza, Joda-mate, Kaldas, Kaltes, Keretkun, Khadau, Khursun (Khors), Kostrubonko, Kovas, Krumine, Kupala, Kupalo, Laima, Leshy, Marina, Marzana, Matergabiae, Mat Syra Zemlya, Medeine, Menu (Menulis), Mir-Susne-Khum, Myesyats, Nastasija, (Russia) Goddess of sleep., Nelaima, Norov, Numi-Tarem, Nyia, Ora, Ot, Patollo, Patrimpas, Pereplut, Perkuno, Perun, Pikuolis, Pilnytis, Piluitus, Potrimpo, Puskaitis, Rod, Rugevit, Rultennin, Rusalki, Sakhadai-Noin, Saule, Semargl, Stribog, Sudjaje, Svantovit (Svantevit, Svitovyd), Svarazic (Svarozic, Svarogich), Tengri, T�airgin, Triglav, Ulgen (Ulgan, �lg�n), Veles (Volos), Vesna, Xatel-Ekwa, Xoli-Kaltes, Yamm, Yarilo, Yarovit, Ynakhsyt, Zaria, Zeme mate, Zemyna, Ziva (Siva), Zizilia, Zonget, Zorya, Zvoruna, Zvezda Dennitsa, Zywie

    Hindu (72):
    Aditi, Adityas, Ambika, Ananta (Shesha), Annapurna (Annapatni), Aruna, Ashvins, Balarama, Bhairavi, Brahma, Buddha, Dakini, Devi, Dharma, Dhisana, Durga, Dyaus, Ganesa (Ganesha), Ganga (Ganges), Garuda, Gauri, Gopis, Hanuman, Hari-Hara, Hulka Devi, Jagganath, Jyeshtha, Kama, Karttikeya, Krishna, Krtya, Kubera, Kubjika, Lakshmi or Laksmi, Manasha, Manu, Maya, Meru, Nagas, Nandi, Naraka, Nataraja, Nirriti, Parjanya, Parvati, Paurnamasi, Prithivi, Purusha, Radha, Rati, Ratri, Rudra, Sanjna, Sati, Shashti, Shatala, Sitala (Satala), Skanda, Sunrta, Surya, Svasti-devi, Tvashtar, Uma, Urjani, Vach, Varuna, Vayu, Vishnu (Avatars of Vishnu: Matsya; Kurma; Varaha; Narasinha; Vamana; Parasurama; Rama; Krishna; Buddha; Kalki), Vishvakarman, Yama, Sraddha

    Japan (53):
    Aji-Suki-Taka-Hi-Kone, Ama no Uzume, Ama-terasu, Amatsu Mikaboshi, Benten (Benzai-Ten), Bishamon, Chimata-No-Kami, Chup-Kamui, Daikoku, Ebisu, Emma-O, Fudo, Fuji, Fukurokuju, Gekka-O, Hachiman, Hettsui-No-Kami, Ho-Masubi, Hotei, Inari, Izanagi and Izanami, Jizo Bosatsu, Jurojin, Kagutsuchi, Kamado-No-Kami, Kami, Kawa-No-Kami, Kaya-Nu-Hima, Kishijoten, Kishi-Mojin, Kunitokotatchi, Marici, Monju-Bosatsu, Nai-No-Kami, No-Il Ja-Dae, O-Kuni-Nushi, Omoigane, Raiden, Shine-Tsu-Hiko, Shoten, Susa-no-wo, Tajika-no-mikoto, Tsuki-yomi, Uka no Mitanna, Uke-mochi, Uso-dori, Uzume, Wakahirume, Yainato-Hnneno-Mikoi, Yama-No-Kami, Yama-no-Karni, Yaya-Zakurai, Yuki-Onne

    India (43)
    Agni, Ammavaru, Asuras, Banka-Mundi, Brihaspati, Budhi Pallien, Candi, Challalamma, Chinnintamma, Devas, Dyaush, Gauri-Sankar, Grhadevi, Gujeswari, Indra, Kali, Lohasur Devi, Mayavel, Mitra, Prajapati, Puchan, Purandhi, Rakshas, Rudrani, Rumina, Samundra, Sarasvati, Savitar, Siva (Shiva), Soma, Sura, Surabhi, Tulsi, Ushas, Vata, Visvamitra, Vivasvat, Vritra, Waghai Devi, Yaparamma, Yayu, Zumiang Nui, Diti

    Other Asian: (31)
    Dewi Shri, Po Yan Dari, Shuzanghu, Antaboga, Yakushi Nyorai, Mulhalmoni, Tankun, Yondung Halmoni, Aryong Jong, Quan Yin , Tengri, Uminai-gami, Kamado-No-Kami, Kunitokotatchi, Giri Devi, Dewi Nawang Sasih, Brag-srin-mo, Samanta-Bhadra, Sangs-rgyas-mkh�, Sengdroma, Sgeg-mo-ma, Tho-og, Ui Tango, Yum-chen-mo, Zas-ster-ma-dmar-mo, Chandra, Dyaus, Ratri, Rodasi, Vayu, Au-Co

    African: 250 Gods, Demigods and First Men
    Abassi , Abuk , Adu Ogyinae , Ag� , Agwe , Aida Wedo , Ajalamo, Aje, Ajok, Akonadi, Akongo, Akuj, Amma, Anansi, Asase Yaa, Ashiakle, Atai , Ayaba, Aziri, Baatsi, Bayanni, Bele Alua, Bomo rambi, Bosumabla, Buk, Buku, Bumba, Bunzi, Buruku, Cagn, Candit, Cghene, Coti, Damballah-Wedo, Dan, Deng, Domfe, Dongo, Edinkira, Ef�, Egungun-oya, Eka Abassi, Elephant Girl Mbombe, Emayian, Enekpe, En-Kai, Eseasar, Eshu, Esu, Fa, Faran, Faro, Fatouma, Fidi Mukullu, Fon, Gleti, Gonzuole, G�, Gua, Gulu, Gunab, Hammadi, H�biesso, Iku, Ilankaka, Imana, Iruwa, Isaywa, Juok, Kazooba, Khakaba, Khonvum, Kibuka, Kintu, Leb�, Leza, Libanza, Lituolone, Loko, Marwe, Massim Biambe, Mawu-Lisa (Leza), Mboze, Mebeli, Minepa, Moombi, Mukameiguru, Mukasa, Muluku, Mulungu, Mwambu, Nai, Nambi, Nana Buluku, Nanan-Bouclou, Nenaunir, Ng Ai, Nyaliep, Nyamb�, Nyankopon, Nyasaye, Nzame, Oboto, Obumo, Odudua-Orishala, Ogun, Olokun, Olorun, Orisha Nla, Orunmila, Osanyin, Oshe, Osun, Oya, Phebele, Pokot-Suk, Ralubumbha, Rugaba, Ruhanga, Ryangombe, Sagbata, Shagpona, Shango, Sopona, Tano, Thixo, Tilo, Tokoloshi, Tsui, Tsui'goab, Umvelinqangi, Unkulunkulu, Utixo, Wak, Wamara, Wantu Su, Wele, Were, Woto, Xevioso, Yangombi, Yemonja, Ymoa, Ymoja, Yoruba, Zambi, Zanahary , Zinkibaru,

    Australian: 93 Gods, Goddesses and Places in the Dreamtime:
    Alinga, Anjea, Apunga, Arahuta, Ariki, Arohirohi, Bamapana, Banaitja, Bara, Barraiya, Biame, Bila, Boaliri, Bobbi-bobbi, Bunbulama, Bunjil, Cunnembeille, Daramulum, Dilga, Djanggawul Sisters, Eingana, Erathipa, Gidja , Gnowee, Haumia, Hine Titama, Ingridi, Julana, Julunggul, Junkgowa, Karora, Kunapipi-Kalwadi-Kadjara, Lia, Madalait, Makara, Nabudi, Palpinkalare, Papa, Rangi, Rongo, Tane, Tangaroa, Tawhiri-ma-tea, Tomituka, Tu, Ungamilia, Walo, Waramurungundi, Wati Kutjarra, Wawalag Sisters, Wuluwaid, Wuragag, Wuriupranili, Wurrunna, Yhi,

    Buddhism: 10 Gods and Relatives of God
    Aizen-Myoo, Ajima,Dai-itoku-Myoo, Fudo-Myoo, Gozanze-Myoo, Gundari-Myoo, Hariti, Kongo-Myoo, Kujaku-Myoo, Ni-O,

    Carribean: 62 Gods, Monsters and Vodun Spirits:
    Agaman Nibo , Agwe, Agweta, Ah Uaynih, Aida Wedo , Atabei , Ayida , Ayizan, Azacca, Baron Samedi, Ulrich, Ellegua, Ogun, Ochosi, Chango, Itaba, Amelia, Christalline, Clairm�, Clairmezin�, Coatrischie, Damballah , Emanjah, Erzuli, Erzulie, Ezili, Ghede, Guabancex, Guabonito, Guamaonocon, Imanje, Karous, Laloue-diji, Legba, Loa, Loco, Maitresse Amelia , Mapiangueh, Marie-aim�e, Marinette, Mombu, Marassa, Nana Buruku, Oba, Obtala, Ochu, Ochumare, Oddudua, Ogoun, Olokum, Olosa, Oshun, Oya, Philomena, Sir�ne, The Diablesse, Itaba, Tsilah, Ursule, Vierge, Yemaya , Zaka,

    Celtic: 166 Gods, Goddesses, Divine Kings and Pagan Saints:
    Abarta, Abna, Abnoba, Aine, Airetech,Akonadi, Amaethon, Ameathon, An Cailleach, Andraste, Antenociticus, Aranrhod, Arawn, Arianrod, Artio, Badb,Balor, Banbha, Becuma, Belatucadros, Belatu-Cadros, Belenus, Beli,Belimawr, Belinus, Bendigeidfran, Bile, Blathnat, Blodeuwedd, Boann, Bodus,Bormanus, Borvo, Bran, Branwen, Bres, Brigid, Brigit, Caridwen, Carpantus,Cathbadh, Cecht, Cernach, Cernunnos, Cliodna, Cocidius, Conchobar, Condatis, Cormac,Coronus,Cosunea, Coventina, Crarus,Creidhne, Creirwy, Cu Chulainn, Cu roi, Cuda, Cuill,Cyhiraeth,Dagda, Damona, Dana, Danu, D'Aulnoy,Dea Artio, Deirdre , Dewi, Dian, Diancecht, Dis Pater, Donn, Dwyn, Dylan, Dywel,Efnisien, Elatha, Epona, Eriu, Esos, Esus, Eurymedon,Fedelma, Fergus, Finn, Fodla, Goewyn, Gog, Goibhniu, Govannon , Grainne, Greine,Gwydion, Gwynn ap Nudd, Herne, Hu'Gadarn, Keltoi,Keridwen, Kernunnos,Ler, Lir, Lleu Llaw Gyffes, Lludd, Llyr, Llywy, Luchta, Lug, Lugh,Lugus, Mabinogion,Mabon, Mac Da Tho, Macha, Magog, Manannan, Manawydan, Maponos, Math, Math Ap Mathonwy, Medb, Moccos,Modron, Mogons, Morrig, Morrigan, Nabon,Nantosuelta, Naoise, Nechtan, Nedoledius,Nehalennia, Nemhain, Net,Nisien, Nodens, Noisi, Nuada, Nwywre,Oengus, Ogma, Ogmios, Oisin, Pach,Partholon, Penard Dun, Pryderi, Pwyll, Rhiannon, Rosmerta, Samhain, Segidaiacus, Sirona, Sucellus, Sulis, Taliesin, Taranis, Teutates, The Horned One,The Hunt, Treveni,Tyne, Urien, Ursula of the Silver Host, Vellaunus, Vitiris, White Lady,

    Egyptian: 85 Gods, Gods Incarnate and Personified Divine Forces:
    Amaunet, Amen, Amon, Amun, Anat, Anqet, Antaios, Anubis, Anuket, Apep, Apis, Astarte, Aten, Aton, Atum, Bastet, Bat, Buto, Duamutef, Duamutef, Hapi, Har-pa-khered, Hathor, Hauhet, Heket, Horus, Huh, Imset, Isis, Kauket, Kebechsenef, Khensu, Khepri, Khnemu, Khnum, Khonsu, Kuk, Maahes, Ma'at, Mehen, Meretseger, Min, Mnewer, Mut, Naunet, Nefertem, Neith, Nekhbet, Nephthys, Nun, Nut, Osiris, Ptah, Ra , Re, Renenet, Sakhmet, Satet, Seb, Seker, Sekhmet, Serapis, Serket, Set, Seth, Shai, Shu, Shu, Sia, Sobek, Sokar, Tefnut, Tem, Thoth,

    Hellenes (Greek) Tradition (540 Gods, Demigods, Divine Bastards)
    Acidalia, Aello, Aesculapius, Agathe, Agdistis, Ageleia, Aglauros, Agne, Agoraia, Agreia, Agreie, Agreiphontes, Agreus, Agrios, Agrotera, Aguieus, Aidoneus, Aigiokhos, Aigletes, Aigobolos, Ainia,Ainippe, Aithuia , Akesios, Akraia, Aktaios, Alalkomene, Alasiotas, Alcibie, Alcinoe, Alcippe, Alcis,Alea, Alexikakos, Aligena, Aliterios, Alkaia, Amaltheia, Ambidexter, Ambologera, Amynomene,Anaduomene, Anaea, Anax, Anaxilea, Androdameia,Andromache, Andromeda, Androphonos, Anosia, Antandre,Antania, Antheus, Anthroporraistes, Antianara, Antianeira, Antibrote, Antimache, Antimachos, Antiope,Antiopeia, Aoide, Apatouria, Aphneius, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apotropaios, Areia, Areia, Areion, Areopagite, Ares, Areto, Areximacha,Argus, Aridnus,Aristaios, Aristomache, Arkhegetes, Arktos, Arretos, Arsenothelys, Artemis, Asclepius, Asklepios, Aspheleios, Asteria, Astraeos , Athene, Auxites, Avaris, Axios, Axios Tauros,Bakcheios, Bakchos, Basileus, Basilis, Bassareus, Bauros, Boophis, Boreas , Botryophoros, Boukeros, Boulaia, Boulaios, Bremusa,Bromios, Byblis,Bythios, Caliope, Cedreatis, Celaneo, centaur, Cerberus, Charidotes, Charybdis, Chimera, Chloe, Chloris , Choreutes, Choroplekes, Chthonios, Clete, Clio, clotho,Clyemne, cockatrice, Crataeis, Custos, Cybebe, Cybele, Cyclops, Daphnaia, Daphnephoros, Deianeira, Deinomache, Delia, Delios, Delphic, Delphinios, Demeter, Dendrites, Derimacheia,Derinoe, Despoina, Dikerotes, Dimeter, Dimorphos, Dindymene, Dioktoros, Dionysos, Discordia, Dissotokos, Dithyrambos, Doris, Dryope,Echephyle,Echidna, Eiraphiotes, Ekstatophoros, Eleemon, Eleuthereus, Eleutherios, Ennosigaios, Enodia, Enodios, Enoplios, Enorches, Enualios, Eos , Epaine, Epidotes, Epikourios, Epipontia, Epitragidia, Epitumbidia, Erato, Ergane, Eribromios, Erigdoupos, Erinus, Eriobea, Eriounios, Eriphos, Eris, Eros,Euanthes, Euaster, Eubouleus, Euboulos, Euios, Eukhaitos, Eukleia, Eukles, Eumache, Eunemos, Euplois, Euros , Eurybe,Euryleia, Euterpe, Fates,Fortuna, Gaia, Gaieokhos, Galea, Gamelia, Gamelios, Gamostolos, Genetor, Genetullis, Geryon, Gethosynos, giants, Gigantophonos, Glaukopis, Gorgons, Gorgopis, Graiae, griffin, Gynaikothoinas, Gynnis, Hagisilaos, Hagnos, Haides, Harmothoe, harpy, Hegemone, Hegemonios, Hekate, Hekatos, Helios, Hellotis, Hephaistia, Hephaistos, Hera, Heraios, Herakles, Herkeios, Hermes, Heros Theos, Hersos, Hestia, Heteira, Hiksios, Hipp, Hippia, Hippios, Hippoi Athanatoi, Hippolyte, Hippolyte II, Hippomache,Hippothoe, Horkos, Hugieia, Hupatos, Hydra, Hypate, Hyperborean, Hypsipyle, Hypsistos, Iakchos, Iatros, Idaia, Invictus, Iphito,Ismenios, Ismenus,Itonia, Kabeiria, Kabeiroi, Kakia, Kallinikos, Kallipugos, Kallisti, Kappotas, Karneios, Karpophoros, Karytis, Kataibates, Katakhthonios, Kathatsios, Keladeine, Keraunos, Kerykes, Khalinitis, Khalkioikos, Kharmon, Khera, Khloe, Khlori,Khloris,Khruse, Khthonia, Khthonios, Kidaria, Kissobryos, Kissokomes, Kissos, Kitharodos, Kleidouchos, Kleoptoleme, Klymenos, Kore, Koruthalia, Korymbophoros, Kourotrophos, Kranaia, Kranaios, Krataiis, Kreousa, Kretogenes, Kriophoros, Kronides, Kronos,Kryphios, Ktesios, Kubebe, Kupris, Kuprogenes, Kurotrophos, Kuthereia, Kybele, Kydoime,Kynthia, Kyrios, Ladon, Lakinia, Lamia, Lampter, Laodoke, Laphria, Lenaios, Leukatas, Leukatas, Leukolenos, Leukophruene, Liknites, Limenia, Limnaios, Limnatis, Logios, Lokhia, Lousia, Loxias, Lukaios, Lukeios, Lyaios, Lygodesma, Lykopis, Lyseus, Lysippe, Maimaktes, Mainomenos, Majestas, Makar, Maleatas, Manikos, Mantis, Marpe, Marpesia, Medusa, Megale, Meilikhios, Melaina, Melainis, Melanaigis, Melanippe,Melete, Melousa, Melpomene, Melqart, Meses, Mimnousa, Minotaur, Mneme, Molpadia,Monogenes, Morpho, Morychos, Musagates, Musagetes, Nebrodes, Nephelegereta, Nereus,Nete, Nike, Nikephoros, Nomios, Nomius, Notos , Nyktelios, Nyktipolos, Nympheuomene, Nysios, Oiketor, Okyale, Okypous, Olumpios, Omadios, Ombrios, Orithia,Orius,Ortheia, Orthos, Ourania, Ourios, Paelemona, Paian, Pais, Palaios, Pallas, Pan Megas, Panakhais, Pandemos, Pandrosos, Pantariste, Parthenos, PAsianax, Pasiphaessa, Pater, Pater, Patroos, Pegasus, Pelagia, Penthesilea, Perikionios, Persephone, Petraios, Phanes, Phanter, Phatria, Philios, Philippis, Philomeides, Phoebe, Phoebus, Phoenix, Phoibos, Phosphoros, Phratrios, Phutalmios, Physis, Pisto, Plouton, Polemusa,Poliakhos, Polias, Polieus, Polumetis, Polydektes, Polygethes, Polymnia, Polymorphos, Polyonomos, Porne, Poseidon, Potnia Khaos, Potnia Pheron, Promakhos, Pronoia, Propulaios, Propylaia, Proserpine, Prothoe, Protogonos, Prytaneia, Psychopompos, Puronia, Puthios, Pyrgomache, Python, Rhea, Sabazios, Salpinx, satyr, Saxanus, Scyleia,Scylla, sirens, Skeptouchos, Smintheus, Sophia, Sosipolis, Soter, Soteria, Sphinx, Staphylos, Sthenias, Sthenios, Strife, Summakhia, Sykites, Syzygia, Tallaios, Taureos, Taurokeros, Taurophagos, Tauropolos, Tauropon, Tecmessa, Teisipyte, Teleios, Telepyleia,Teletarches, Terpsichore, Thalestris, Thalia, The Dioskouroi, Theos, Theritas, Thermodosa, Thraso, Thyonidas, Thyrsophoros, Tmolene, Toxaris, Toxis, Toxophile,Trevia, Tricephalus, Trieterikos, Trigonos, Trismegestos, Tritogeneia, Tropaios, Trophonius,Tumborukhos, Tyche, Typhon, Urania, Valasca, Xanthippe, Xenios, Zagreus, Zathos, Zephryos , Zeus, Zeus Katakhthonios, Zoophoros

    Native American: 711 Gods, Heroes, and Anthropomorphized Facets of Nature:
    Aakuluujjusi, Ab Kin zoc, Abaangui , Ababinili , Ac Yanto, Acan, Acat, Achiyalatopa , Acna, Acolmiztli, Acolnahuacatl, Acuecucyoticihuati, Adamisil Wedo, Adaox , Adekagagwaa , Adlet , Adlivun, Agloolik , Aguara , Ah Bolom Tzacab, Ah Cancum, Ah Chun Caan, Ah Chuy Kak, Ah Ciliz, Ah Cun Can, Ah Cuxtal, Ah hulneb, Ah Kin, Ah Kumix Uinicob, Ah Mun, Ah Muzencab, Ah Patnar Uinicob, Ah Peku, Ah Puch, Ah Tabai, Ah UincirDz'acab, Ah Uuc Ticab, Ah Wink-ir Masa, Ahau Chamahez, Ahau-Kin, Ahmakiq, Ahnt Alis Pok', Ahnt Kai', Aholi , Ahsonnutli , Ahuic, Ahulane, Aiauh, Aipaloovik , Ajbit, Ajilee , Ajtzak, Akbaalia , Akba-atatdia , Akhlut , Akhushtal, Akna , Akycha, Alaghom Naom Tzentel, Albino Spirit animals , Alektca , Alignak, Allanque , Allowat Sakima , Alom, Alowatsakima , Amaguq , Amala , Amimitl, Amitolane, Amotken , Andaokut , Andiciopec , Anerneq , Anetlacualtiliztli, Angalkuq , Angpetu Wi, Anguta, Angwusnasomtaka , Ani Hyuntikwalaski , Animal spirits , Aningan, Aniwye , Anog Ite , Anpao, Apanuugak , Apicilnic , Apikunni , Apotamkin , Apoyan Tachi , Apozanolotl, Apu Punchau, Aqalax , Arendiwane , Arnakua'gsak , Asdiwal , Asgaya Gigagei, Asiaq , Asin , Asintmah, Atacokai , Atahensic, Aticpac Calqui Cihuatl, Atira, Atisokan , Atius Tirawa , Atl, Atlacamani, Atlacoya, Atlatonin, Atlaua, Atshen , Auilix, Aulanerk , Aumanil , Aunggaak , Aunt Nancy , Awaeh Yegendji , Awakkule , Awitelin Tsta , Awonawilona, Ayauhteotl, Azeban, Baaxpee , Bacabs, Backlum Chaam, Bagucks , Bakbakwalanooksiwae , Balam, Baldhead , Basamacha , Basket Woman , Bead Spitter , Bear , Bear Medicine Woman , Bear Woman , Beaver , Beaver Doctor , Big Heads, Big Man Eater , Big Tail , Big Twisted Flute , Bikeh hozho, Bitol, Black Hactcin , Black Tamanous , Blind Boy , Blind Man , Blood Clot Boy , Bloody Hand , Blue-Jay , Bmola , Bolontiku, Breathmaker, Buffalo , Buluc Chabtan, Burnt Belly , Burnt Face , Butterfly , Cabaguil, Cacoch, Cajolom, Cakulha, Camaxtli, Camozotz, Cannibal Grandmother , Cannibal Woman , Canotila , Capa , Caprakan, Ca-the-�a, Cauac, Centeotl, Centzonuitznaua, Cetan , Chac Uayab Xoc, Chac, Chahnameed , Chakwaina Okya, Chalchihuitlicue, Chalchiuhtlatonal, Chalchiutotolin, Chalmecacihuilt, Chalmecatl, Chamer, Changing Bear Woman , Changing Woman , Chantico, Chaob, Charred Body , Chepi , Chibiabos , Chibirias, Chiccan, Chicomecoatl, Chicomexochtli, Chiconahui, Chiconahuiehecatl, Chie, Child-Born-in-Jug , Chirakan, Chulyen , Cihuacoatl, Cin-an-ev , Cinteotl, Cipactli, Cirap� , Cit Chac Coh, Cit-Bolon-Tum, Citlalatonac, Citlalicue, Ciucoatl, Ciuteoteo, Cizin, Cliff ogre , Coatlicue, Cochimetl, Cocijo, Colel Cab, Colop U Uichkin, Copil, Coyolxauhqui, Coyopa, Coyote , Cripple Boy , Crow , Crow Woman , Cum hau, Cunawabi , Dagwanoenyent , Dahdahwat , Daldal , Deohako, Dhol , Diyin dine , Djien , Djigonasee , Dohkwibuhch , Dzalarhons , Dzalarhons, Eagentci , Eagle , Earth Shaman , Eeyeekalduk , Ehecatl, Ehlaumel , Eithinoha , Ekchuah, Enumclaw , Eototo, Esaugetuh Emissee , Esceheman, Eschetewuarha, Estanatlehi , Estasanatlehi , Estsanatlehi, Evaki, Evening Star, Ewah , Ewauna, Face , Faces of the Forests , False Faces , Famine , Fastachee , Fire Dogs , First Creator , First Man and First Woman, First Scolder , Flint Man , Flood , Flower Woman , Foot Stuck Child , Ga'an, Ga-gaah , Gahe, Galokwudzuwis , Gaoh, Gawaunduk, Geezhigo-Quae, Gendenwitha, Genetaska, Ghanan, Gitche Manitou, Glispa, Glooskap , Gluscabi , Gluskab , Gluskap, Godasiyo, Gohone , Great Seahouse, Greenmantle , Gucumatz, Gukumatz, Gunnodoyak, Gyhldeptis, Ha Wen Neyu , Hacauitz , Hacha'kyum, Hagondes , Hahgwehdiyu , Hamatsa , Hamedicu, Hanghepi Wi, Hantceiitehi , Haokah , Hastseoltoi, Hastshehogan , He'mask.as , Hen, Heyoka , Hiawatha , Hino, Hisakitaimisi, Hokhokw , Hotoru, Huehuecoyotl, Huehueteotl, Huitaca , Huitzilopochtli, Huixtocihuatl, Hummingbird, Hun hunahpu, Hun Pic Tok, Hunab Ku, Hunahpu Utiu, Hunahpu, Hunahpu-Gutch, Hunhau, Hurakan, Iatiku And Nautsiti, Ich-kanava , Ictinike , Idliragijenget , Idlirvirisong, Igaluk , Ignirtoq , Ikanam , Iktomi , Ilamatecuhtli, Illapa, Ilyap'a, i'noGo tied , Inti, Inua , Ioskeha , Ipalnemohuani, Isakakate, Ishigaq , Isitoq , Issitoq , Ite , Itzamn�, Itzananohk`u, Itzlacoliuhque, Itzli, Itzpapalotl, Ix Chebel Yax, Ixbalanque, Ixchel, Ixchup, Ixmucane, Ixpiyacoc, Ixtab, Ixtlilton, Ixtubtin, Ixzaluoh, Iya , Iyatiku , Iztaccihuatl, Iztacmixcohuatl, Jaguar Night, Jaguar Quitze, Jogah , Kaakwha , Kabun , Kabun , Kachinas, Kadlu , Ka-Ha-Si , Ka-Ha-Si , Kaik , Kaiti , Kan, Kana'ti and Selu , Kanati, Kan-u-Uayeyab, Kan-xib-yui, Kapoonis , Katsinas, Keelut , Ketchimanetowa, Ketq Skwaye, Kianto, Kigatilik , Kilya, K'in, Kinich Ahau, Kinich Kakmo, Kishelemukong , Kisin, Kitcki Manitou, Kmukamch , Kokopelli , Ko'lok , Kukulcan, Kushapatshikan , Kutni , Kutya'I , Kwakwakalanooksiwae , Kwatee , Kwekwaxa'we , Kwikumat , Kyoi , Lagua , Land Otter People , Lawalawa , Logobola , Loha, Lone Man , Long Nose , Loon , Loon Medicine , Loon Woman , Loo-wit, Macaw Woman, Macuilxochitl, Maho Peneta, Mahucutah, Makenaima , Malesk , Malina , Malinalxochi, Malsum, Malsumis , Mam, Mama Cocha, Man in moon , Manabozho , Manetuwak , Mani'to, Manitou , Mannegishi , Manu, Masaya, Masewi , Master of Life , Master Of Winds, Matshishkapeu , Mavutsinim , Mayahuel, Medeoulin , Mekala , Menahka, Meteinuwak , Metztli, Mexitl, Michabo, Mictecacihuatl, Mictlan, Mictlantecuhtli, Mikchich , Mikumwesu , Mitnal, Mixcoatl, Mongwi Kachinum , Morning Star, Motho and Mungo , Mulac, Muut , Muyingwa , Nacon, Nagenatzani, Nagi Tanka , Nagual, Nahual, Nakaw�, Nanabojo, Nanabozho , Nanabush, Nanahuatzin, Nanautzin, Nanih Waiya, Nankil'slas , Nanook , Naum, Negafook , Nerrivik , Nesaru, Nianque , Nishanu , Nohochacyum, Nokomis, Nootaikok , North Star, Nujalik , Nukatem , Nunne Chaha , Ocasta, Ockabewis, Odzihozo , Ohtas , Oklatabashih, Old Man , Olelbis, Omacatl, Omecihuatl, Ometecuhtli, Onatha , One Tail of Clear Hair , Oonawieh Unggi , Opochtli, Oshadagea, Owl Woman , Pah , Pah, Paiowa, Pakrokitat , Pana , Patecatl, Pautiwa, Paynal, Pemtemweha , Piasa , Pikv�hahirak , Pinga , Pomola , Pot-tilter , Prairie Falcon , Ptehehincalasanwin , Pukkeenegak , Qaholom, Qakma, Qiqirn , Quaoar , Quetzalcoatl, Qumu , Quootis-hooi, Rabbit, Ragno, Raven, Raw Gums , Rukko, Sagamores , Sagapgia , Sanopi , Saynday , Sedna, Selu, Shakuru, Sharkura, Shilup Chito Osh, Shrimp house, Sila , Sint Holo , Sio humis, Sisiutl , Skan , Snallygaster , Sosondowah , South Star, Spider Woman , Sta-au , Stonecoats , Sun, Sungrey , Ta Tanka , Tabaldak , Taime , Taiowa , Talocan, Tans , Taqwus , Tarhuhyiawahku, Tarquiup Inua , Tate , Tawa, Tawiscara, Ta'xet , Tcisaki , Tecciztecatl, Tekkeitserktock, Tekkeitsertok , Telmekic , Teoyaomqui, Tepeu, Tepeyollotl, Teteoinnan, Tezcatlipoca, Thobadestchin, Thoume', Thunder , Thunder Bird , Tieholtsodi, Tihtipihin , Tirawa , Tirawa Atius, Tlacolotl, Tlahuixcalpantecuhtli, Tlaloc, Tlaltecuhtli, Tlauixcalpantecuhtli, Tlazolteotl, Tohil, Tokpela , Tonantzin , Tonatiuh, To'nenile, Tonenili , Tootega , Torngasak, Torngasoak , Trickster/Transformer , True jaguar, Tsentsa, Tsichtinako, Tsohanoai Tsonoqwa , Tsul 'Kalu , Tulugaak , Tumas , Tunkan ingan, Turquoise Boy , Twin Thunder Boys, Txamsem , Tzakol, Tzitzimime, Uazzale , Uchtsiti, Ud� , Uentshukumishiteu , Ueuecoyotl, Ugly Way , Ugni , Uhepono , Uitzilopochtli, Ukat , Underwater Panthers , Unhcegila , Unipkaat , Unk, Unktomi , Untunktahe , Urcaguary, Utea , Uwashil , Vassagijik , Voltan, Wabosso , Wabun , Wachabe, Wah-Kah-Nee, Wakan , Wakanda , Wakan-Tanka, Wakinyan , Wan niomi , Wanagi , Wananikwe , Watavinewa , Water babies , Waukheon , We-gyet , Wemicus , Wendigo , Wentshukumishiteu , White Buffalo Woman, Whope , Wi , Wicahmunga , Wihmunga , Windigo, Winonah, Wisagatcak , Wisagatcak, Wishpoosh , Wiyot , Wovoka , Wuya , Xaman Ek, Xelas , Xibalba, Xilonen, Xipe Totec, Xiuhcoatl, Xiuhtecuhtli, Xiuhtecutli, Xmucane, Xochipili , Xochiquetzal, Xocotl, Xolotl, Xpiyacoc, Xpuch And Xtah, Yacatecuhtli, Yaluk, Yanauluha , Ya-o-gah , Yeba Ka, Yebaad, Yehl , Yeitso, Yiacatecuhtli, Yolkai Estsan, Yoskeha , Yum Kaax, Yuwipi , Zaramama, Zipaltonal, Zotz,

    Norse, 111 Deities, Giants and Monsters:
    Aegir, Aesir, Alfrigg, Audumbla, Aurgelmir, Balder, Berchta, Bergelmir, Bor, Bragi, Brisings, Buri, Etin, Fenris, Forseti, Frey, Freyja, Frigga, Gefion, Gerda, Gode, Gymir, Harke, Heimdall, Hel, Hermod, Hodur, Holda, Holle, Honir, Hymir, Idun, Jormungandr, Ljolsalfs, Loki, Magni, Mimir, Mistarblindi, Muspel, Nanna, Nanni, Nerthus, Njord, Norns, Odin, Perchta, Ran, Rig, Segyn, Sif, Skadi, Skirnir, Skuld, Sleipnir, Surt, Svadilfari, tanngniotr, tanngrisnr, Thiassi, Thor, Thrud, Thrudgelmir, Thrym, Thurs, Tyr, Uller, Urd, Vali, Vali, Valkyries, Vanir, Ve, Verdandi, Vidar, Wode, Ymir

    Pacific islands: 99 Deities, Demigods and Immortal Monsters:
    Abeguwo, Abere, Adaro, Afekan, Ai Tupua'i, 'Aiaru, Ala Muki, Alalahe, Alii Menehune, Aluluei, Aruaka, Asin, Atanea, Audjal, Aumakua, Babamik, Bakoa, Barong, Batara Kala, Buring Une, Darago, Dayang-Raca, De Ai, Dogai, Enda Semangko, Faumea, Giriputri, Goga, Haumea, Hiiaka', Hina, Hine, Hoa-Tapu, 'Imoa, Io, Kanaloa, Kanaloa, Kane, Kapo, Kava, Konori, Ku, Kuhuluhulumanu, Kuklikimoku, Kukoae, Ku'ula, Laka, Laulaati, Lono, Mahiuki, MakeMake, Marruni, Maru, Maui, Melu, Menehune, Moeuhane, MOO-LAU, Ndauthina, Ne Te-reere, Nevinbimbaau, Ngendei, Nobu, Oro, Ove, Paka'a, Papa, Pele, Quat, Rangi, Rati, Rati-mbati-ndua, Ratu-Mai-Mbula, Rua, Ruahatu, Saning Sri, Ta'aroa, Taaroa, Tamakaia, Tane, Tanemahuta, Tangaroa, Tawhaki, Tiki, Tinirau, Tu, Tuli, Turi-a-faumea, Uira, Ukupanipo, Ulupoka, Umboko Indra, Vanuatu, Wahini-Hal, Walutahanga, Wari-Ma-Te-Takere, Whaitiri, Whatu, Wigan,

    South American: 53 Deities, Demigods, Beings of Divine Substance:
    Abaangui, Aclla, Akewa, Asima Si, Atoja, Auchimalgen, Axomama, Bachu�, Beru, Bochica, Boiuna, Calounger, Catequil, Cavillaca, Ceiuci, Chasca, Chie, Cocomama, Gaumansuri, Huitaca, Iae, Ilyap'a, Ina, Inti, Ituana, Jamaina , Jandira, Jarina, Jubbu-jang-sangne, Ka-ata-killa, Kilya, Kuat, Kun, Luandinha, Lupi, Mama Allpa, Mama Quilla, Mamacocha, Manco Capac, Maret-Jikky, Maretkhmakniam, Mariana, Oshossi, Pachamac, Pachamama, Perimb�, Rainha Barba, Si, Supai, Top�tine, Viracocha, Yemanja (Imanje), Zume Topana.

    If you choose to believe in a false god... you will burn in hell !

     

    Man, I might as well worship them all! Jawdropping!


    StMichael
    Theist
    StMichael's picture
    Posts: 609
    Joined: 2006-12-20
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    Quote:  I've lost any

    Quote:

     I've lost any respect i had for you at this point.  I assumed--I don't know why--that someone who was articulate and educated enough to talk of philosophy would not make the egregious errors in thinking you have demonstrated in the last day or so.  You are a bigot.  You dislike atheists based on a complete and utter lack of comprehension of the implications of the lack of belief in a god.  You do so because you have been mis-lead as to these implications because you belong to a group that thinks taht they have the monopoly or logic, morality, and meaning.

    I have no personal dislike for atheists themselves. I disagree with your position and find it fundamentally untenable. Just because I believe truth cannot exist unless it is objective does not mean that I reject other people's right to defend their opinions. I do admit that, according to my conscience, I see it to be both logical, rational, and true to believe in Catholicism. Otherwise, why would I believe it? And this is my right as an autonomous human being, as it is yours to hold your opinions on rational grounds.

    Quote:

    Atheism has no faith.  In fact, it cannot have faith my definition.  There are atheists of all personality types and beliefs.  They differ in being liberal,. conservative, libertarian, socialist, communist, capitalist, etc.  There is one and only one thing that unifies all of these people; thus, this thing  is the definition of 'atheist' because it is the one and only thing that they all share.  All atheists lack a belief in any gods.  Some go further to claim that no god exists, some simply say it cannot be known for sure.  But the ONLY thing that they all share is a mere lack of belief.

    I was referring to the militant atheists, such as Dawkins and the RRS, who are "anti-conversion" oriented and missionary in nature. I find it reflective of the very elements that they criticize in "religion" and thus I call them a faith. I likewise meant that in terms of how they hold their opinion as true without/against reason, which is precisely what they believe to be the problem in religion (I mean this mainly in reference to things like throwing insults at religion).

    Quote:

    Meaning and morality are indeed subjective.  They are subjective because they are judged by subjects--us.  That's what the word 'subjective' means.  You believe that these things come from an absolute standard, that's fine.  The problem is that you then state that unless they are absolute, then they are meaningless.  This is a false dichotomy, and betrays a serious lack of understanding of the philosophical issues of meaning and ethics.  There really is no point in discussing this with you when you are blind to any perspective other than your own. 

    In fact, I don't think it is at all philosophically ignorant to say that truth and morality have meaning only as objective. Frankly, most philosophers are conceding this point in contemporary philosophy. Further, I think it the logical conclusion. What is truth, if not a conformity of the mind to reality? If we want to posit that truth does not exist (which is the same as saying that truth is subjective), we commit the fallacy of stealing the concept; we create a logical contradiction in asserting that "All labels of truth or false are meaningful subjectively" as we would have to maintain that our own statement is subjective and hence lacks meaning for the other person. This position is fundamental to philosophy and ethics. No study of philosophy or ethics can happen if truth or morals do not exist objectively.

     Meaning and morality might exist in subjects, but that does not mean that they depend on subjects. It is the common mistake of mistaking per accidens for per se.

    Quote:

    You lack subtlety of thought, the ability to step outside of a severely perochial perspective, and you are not contributing anything of worth to the discussion nor learning ours.  I don't expect you to necessarily agree with any of our positions, but I do expect you to at least make an effort to understand them.  In this you have seemed to fail, and perhaps that is our fault.

    I am not operating from a severly 'parochial' perspective. Moreover, I have made an effort to understand your arguments; I look for others to likewise contribute to the discussion. If I have not accurately expressed your views, please interject. However, my basic point in discussion has been that faith and the existence of God are both rational propositions that can be upheld by thinking people, and that atheism lacks good philosophical foundation. Point, then, to a specific instance of the abuse you claim. If it is valid, I apologize. However, merely defending my positions is not grounds enough to call me 'parochial.' I believe them to be true, otherwise I would not defend them.

    Quote:

    I see no point in continuing this farce without significant growth on your part.  I hope that, if you intend to be a leader of future people with questions, you are able to at least understand the non-Catholic worldview to gain some perspective. Otherwise you will merely perpetuate the cancer of Catholic perochialism, bias, and arrogance onto another generation.

    I do not claim to know a priori everything you claim, which is why I ask others to clarify their views before I propose their weaknesses. If I have misinterpreted your views, correct my ignorace. However, nothing of the sort has happened so far.

    Further, I would reject that the Catholic Church or even Catholic culture inculcates a spirit of parochialism, bias, or arrogance in its faithful. In fact, the Catholic Church openly encourages intellectual discussion and has always maintained that reason is a complement of faith.  

     

     

     

     

     

     

    In response to the other questions in the forum:

     Actually, zarathustra, you got sucked up into my discussion with Pikachu. I apologize for the delay.

     

    Quote:

    1) Explain why you didn't include Allah in your "first cause" club, since it is pretty much the same god as that observed by jews, protestants, catholics. Abraham, Moses, Jesus, are all part of the Muslim belief system.

    Well, stricly speaking, Allah is not incomptaible. However, I would neglect to list Allah as a the first cause because Allah as theologically defined by the Koran and Islamic theologians/clerics transcends all categories of reason, logic, or existence. He is utterly and totally transcendent. Thus, He cannot logically fit into the category of the first cause. In fact, this definition by Islam was a result of the writings of the Islamic philosophers Avicenna, Averroes, and Al-Farabi who did claim that Allah could be related as the first cause of the universe. However, Islam rejected this essentially and maintained instead that God was transcendent, without the bounds of logic.

    In sum, I find the account given by Islam to be wrong because it places Allah in a position that rejects utterly natural reason's ability to know the truth of the universe. Islam further denies that Allah, according to their interpretation of the Koran, is not the first cause (which is enough to prove that Allah cannot be the first cause from an Islamic standard).

    Quote:
     

    2) How (using your reason), you exclude the other "first cause" deities from the circle of legitimacy,

    I exclude no other first cause deities. I just do not believe that there are very many at all, if any outside of Christianity/Judaism, that achieve this standard. The closest deities are those of the ancient Greeks, such as Aristotle, Plato, Plotinus, and the Stoics. However, again, just fulfilling the criteria of first cause is not necessarily enough. It has to do with the logical consequences of what it means to be the first cause (such as one, omni-potent, all loving, ect.) which also help to reject religions not in keeping with what we know. I don't mean to say that these are totally false. I think that most other religions attain to some degree of truth which would make sense from the fact that these truths are discoverable by natural reason.

    Quote:

    3) Give an example of a deity that doesn't make the cut as a "first cause" -- you said this applies to "most" other religions, so this should not be too hard.

    Zeus, Hera, Thor, Odin, Marduk, Shiva, Baal, ect.

    Quote:

    4) How (using once again, your reason), you finally conclude that Catholicism is the one true way to go, and how Judaism and Protestantism, while part of the "club", are still off the mark.

    Well, using reason is something different from using purely my "natural reason" - my ability to know truth absent Revelation, which is opposed to knowledge from faith. We use reason to come to faith, but we cannot use natural reason to demonstrate the truth of faith (the most we can do is to offer a probable argument and show that no proof can be offered either pro or con).

     I would argue that Catholicism is the true religion for a number of different reasons. First among these is the fact that it corresponds to what we already know with our natural reason when it speaks about God, the soul, and the world. Second is the fact that God, if He wished to reveal Himself to man, ought to perform miracles to authenticate His claims as God (and dominion over nature). I find evidence of these both in the life of Christ and in the saints of the Catholic Church, miracles which were performed in such a way as to defy natural explanation. Thus, I believe that the Christ and His saints are truly from God (and in the case of Christ, God) and that their teaching is likewise trustworthy. Third, Protestantism is rejected on not a few proofs from Scripture (proving that its tenets are unsupported by Scripture, such as those on justification, sola scriptura, ect.), from philosophy (in that Christ desired unity for His Church and must have supplied a mechanism for unity, as well as for teaching authority in general), and from history (Protestantism was a novelty of the 16th century and Catholicism has an unbroken chain to Christ Himself, with historical evidence from the early Church clearly contradicting its claims).

    Judaism is something of a special case because it is assumed by Christianity. I believe it is clear that its prophecies for a Messiah had been fulfilled and that, among other things, the destruction of the Temple, the miracles of Christ, His Resurrection, ect. prove that Christianity is the fulfillment of God's promises to Abraham.

     

     

     

     

    In response to Pikachu:

    Quote:

    Islam says if you claim Jesus is son of god, it is a great blasphemy and you will burn in hell forever. We do have problems of theodicy here ?

    I have no problem. First, because I do not believe in Islam's doctrines. Second, because I find Islam in a place of contradiction to human reason (and false). Third, Allah, defined by Islamic theologians, cannot be the first cause and hence cannot be God.

    Quote:

    What if one of these gods is the right god ?

    First, I don't need to answer that strictly speaking. I am merely maintaining that, whatever revelations might tell us, there is a God which is naturally knowable. Second, none of these gods (as far as I have seen) has claimed to have satisfied the conditions of the first cause, nor do they do so (we can pick apart specific ones, if you so desire).

     

    Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,

    StMichael  

     

    Psalm 50(1):8. For behold thou hast loved truth: the uncertain and hidden things of thy wisdom thou hast made manifest to me.


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    Marcus1111 wrote: To all

    Marcus1111 wrote:

    To all of the "Rational Responders", here's a thought.

     

    You took everything that RationalFaith said and basically without much effort told her to "prove" that God does exist. So, that just leads me to ask you...

     

    How about you prove that he doesn't exist?

    This must have been the insperation for the McDonnald's slogan "Billions and Billions served."

    Quote:
    How about you prove that he doesnt't exist

    Nope, never heard that one before. Oh wait, yes we have, "Billions of times".

    If you don't know the fallacy in that you dont know much about why that is a fallacy. 

     

    "We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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    zarathustra
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    From now on, I think RRS

    From now on, I think RRS ought to post something on the homepage about proving god doesn't exist.  Holy frick, how many times are they going to make that fallacious demand and how many times do we have to refute it?

    There are no theists on operating tables.

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    doc101
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    Brian37 wrote: doc101

    Brian37 wrote:
    doc101 wrote:
    Vastet wrote:

    Rational Faith wrote:
    Life requires an all-powerful being, God, to even exist. Life is too complex to simply be something that fell into place. The replication of DNA to formation and cooperation of cells. The very beginning of matter requires God.

    Matter cannot have been created and therefore your god is a delusion.

     

     

    i'm sorry if i'm being ignorant of this, but it is simply too late for me to delve into deeper threads in this forum

     

    but why cannot matter be created? If i recall (and please correct me if i am wrong for saying this) Nuclear chemistry has defied the law of matter in saying that matter cannot be created nor destroyed in any process; (i apologize in advance if this post does not make sense)

    Quote:
    but why cannot matter be created?

    First you already answered the question at the end of that paragraph.

    Secondly, what the theist never wants to ask, be they Muslim, Jew, Christian ect ect ect is this, "Why do we need a being to do it?"

    The universe although we dont know everything about it, we dont have to assume bearded men in the sky vs a man with a pitchfork. Suprman vs Kriptonite claims rooted in ancient mythology are not the way to mesure life or the universe. If you dont know something just say, "I dont know".

     

    No i didn't answer it, I was merely stating a question to what Vaset stated, and i'm pretty sure we went down that road before...

     

    Also we had a discussion in Chemistry about Creation, and my chemistry teacher had this to say

     

    Just cause it doesn't necessarily make sense doesn't mean its true

     

    do you understand everything quantum physics?

    do you understand everything about Anti-matter?

     

     


    zarathustra
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    StMichael wrote: In

    StMichael wrote:

    In response to the other questions in the forum:

    Actually, zarathustra, you got sucked up into my discussion with Pikachu. I apologize for the delay.

    Sorry if I keep pressing you to respond. It's simply because you never responded to my first post, back in the "punching bag" thread you started.

    StMichael wrote:

    Quote:

    1) Explain why you didn't include Allah in your "first cause" club, since it is pretty much the same god as that observed by jews, protestants, catholics. Abraham, Moses, Jesus, are all part of the Muslim belief system.

    ...I would neglect to list Allah as a the first cause because Allah as theologically defined by the Koran and Islamic theologians/clerics transcends all categories of reason, logic, or existence....this definition by Islam was a result of the writings of the Islamic philosophers Avicenna, Averroes, and Al-Farabi who did claim that Allah could be related as the first cause of the universe... Islam further denies that Allah, according to their interpretation of the Koran, is not the first cause (which is enough to prove that Allah cannot be the first cause from an Islamic standard).

    It would appear you really don't know what you're talking about, or you know very little, and have extrapolated to create (yet another) wordy argument. I know of no explicit reference in the Quran which places the god beyond the bounds of logic, etc. You are mistaken about Averroes - Averroism states that Aristotelian philosophy represents the truth about the universe (with no allowance for an active deity), and those who are able of comprehending it must accept it. Islam and the Quran were for the masses who were unable to comprehend those principles.

    You see fit to reach back 1,000 years to discredit islam, relying on this "first cause" catch-all which you so highly prize. In which case, it is fair to note that the "first cause" concept did not meet with christianity until the renaissance, when europeans rediscovered hellenic philosophy (following interaction with the muslim scholars). Prior to that, no first cause in christianity, nor in Judaism. Any implied "first cause" attributes of Yahweh/god you might point to (as I suspect you will) in the biblical creation story can just as easily be applied to Allah - the Quran has its own account of Adam.

    You have not really addressed this question. Please do not say later that you have.

    StMichael wrote:

    Quote:

    2) How (using your reason), you exclude the other "first cause" deities from the circle of legitimacy,

    I exclude no other first cause deities. I just do not believe that there are very many at all, if any outside of Christianity/Judaism, that achieve this standard...

    It is rather apparent to me that the great majority of religions tend to have some sort of creation story involving a divinity, thereby meeting the first cause requirement. Your further requirement that the first cause also be "one, omnipotent, all-loving" is a presupposition. How do we determine by reason that the first cause must be "one, omnipotent, all-loving", by virtue of being the first cause?

    You have not really addressed this question. Please do not say later that you have.

    StMichael wrote:

    Quote:

    3) Give an example of a deity that doesn't make the cut as a "first cause" -- you said this applies to "most" other religions, so this should not be too hard.

    Zeus, Hera, Thor, Odin, Marduk, Shiva, Baal, ect.

    - Zeus and Hera are not "first causes", but they are part of the Greek pantheon which does have a creator/first cause - Gaia

    - Thor is not a "first cause", but is part of the Norse pantheon; Odin is also part of the Norse pantheon, and did in fact create the world, along with two other gods, Vili and Ve (Trinity, anyone?).

    - Shiva is not a "first cause", but is part of the Hindu pantheon which does have a creator - Brahma. Shiva (the destroyer), Brahma (the creator), and Vishnu (the preserver) represent the 3 chief Hindu gods (Trinity again, anyone?)

    So what you have done is thrown out the names of some deities to support your claim, in ignorance of the fact there were other deities in the same tradition who did fit the required niche.

    You have not really addressed this question. Please do not say later that you have.

     

    StMichael wrote:

    Quote:

    4) How (using once again, your reason), you finally conclude that Catholicism is the one true way to go, and how Judaism and Protestantism, while part of the "club", are still off the mark.

    Well, using reason is something different from using purely my "natural reason" - my ability to know truth absent Revelation, which is opposed to knowledge from faith. We use reason to come to faith, but we cannot use natural reason to demonstrate the truth of faith (the most we can do is to offer a probable argument and show that no proof can be offered either pro or con).

    So now, after having for so long pointed out the consonance of faith and reason, you all of sudden mention a distinction between reason and "natural reason", and throw in the added element of "revelation". I can't say whether this encompasses all your claims, but you certainly have a circular logic here which effectively lets you support any claim. Where natural reason fails, throw in revelation, and anything goes. Of course, practicioners of other religions will claim they also receive revelation from their gods, but you will reject their claims, because they aren't "first cause" gods, or they don't use reason along with their faith or whatever. So you will keep jumping from reason to revelation and back again, and always stay ahead of the game.

    You have not really addressed this question. Please do not say later that you have.

    At this point, I'm not really sure I see any worth in you responding (although I'm sure you will, just to show you haven't conceded). I don't see any worth because you will either skirt the issue and claim later that you "proved" it, requiring a string of diversionary posts just to revisit that "proof", or you will use your reason/revelation dodging game to avoid ever being put on the spot. Rather than approaching the debate with an impartial mind, you have presupposed that everything about the catholic church is true, and will use whatever methods necessary to argue the truth of those presuppositions, whether it be casuistry or the method of exhaustion (paragraph upon paragraph of indecipherable prose). Seriously, if you have to expound on how racoons interact with carrots to "prove" the existence of the soul, you are really, really grabbing at straws.

    I can't speak for others, but it's really not worth my time to read another long, convoluted essay about absolutely nothing, nor is it worth your time to write it. If you wish to convince anyone here of the truth of your claims, arrange for god (or maybe even Mary or St. Theresa) to show up.

    All the best

    There are no theists on operating tables.

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    StMichael
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    Quote: It would appear you

    Quote:

    It would appear you really don't know what you're talking about, or you know very little, and have extrapolated to create (yet another) wordy argument. I know of no explicit reference in the Quran which places the god beyond the bounds of logic, etc. You are mistaken about Averroes - Averroism states that Aristotelian philosophy represents the truth about the universe (with no allowance for an active deity), and those who are able of comprehending it must accept it. Islam and the Quran were for the masses who were unable to comprehend those principles.

    I would quote from the previous editor of the Dictionary of Islam:

    "He [Allâh] is Incomprehensible, and nothing is like him, therefore the knowledge of Allâh's Reality (His Essence, Haqîqat al-Dzât), cannot be known through logical proof (Dalîl) or rational considerations (Burhân Aqlî). Revelation is indispensable as a proof of His existence. Nor can any definition or description grasp Him."

    This is the standard theologians interpretation of the attribute of Allâh mentioned in Sura 6:103, as well as other places. Also, it is the open and clearly defined interpretation throughout the history of Islam. Pick up any copy of the Koran which contains commentary and look up suras relating to Allah's incomprehensibility.

    In specific regard to the Genesis-like creation story, I quote the translation offered of Sura 41:11:

    He directed Himself towards the space. Behold! It was (like) a mass of gas (dust), and He said to it (- the space) and to the world, ‘Come both of you (in obedience to Me) willingly or unwillingly.’ They said, ‘We obey you with all our will.’  This would seem to disprove the argument that Islam sees Allah as the first cause, because there was that which was either prior to or merely coexistent with Allah - the 'Dust.'Also, "The Most Gracious ( al-Rahmân) is firmly and flawlessly established on (His) Throne (of Power). (Sura 20:5) When this figurative is used, it means to convey to us that Allâh is far above the understanding of human intelligence which has not the strength to find Him or to comprehend His eternity, His limitlessness, His Holiness. It is this high Divine rank when He says that He is the Most Gracious (al-Rahmân) Who is firmly and flawlessly established on His Throne of Power (20:5)...."I would merely point out at the end that these things are not the only reason I do not find Islam to be true, but I think that these are sufficent proofs enough that the Islamic concept of God cannot be compatible with the first mover, and hence irrational. I would also point out that this application of Aristotle to Islam was condemned as contrary to the honor of Allah in the work, "The Destruction of the Philosophers" by Al-Ghazali.
    Quote:

    In which case, it is fair to note that the "first cause" concept did not meet with christianity until the renaissance, when europeans rediscovered hellenic philosophy (following interaction with the muslim scholars). Prior to that, no first cause in christianity, nor in Judaism. Any implied "first cause" attributes of Yahweh/god you might point to (as I suspect you will) in the biblical creation story can just as easily be applied to Allah - the Quran has its own account of Adam.

    Adam has nothing to do with it. We are speaking of the first movement that caused anything to come into existence in the first place. Further, the concept of God as the prime cause of the universe is clearly present throughout Genesis (including God's name as Yahweh, which indicates His essence as identical to His existence, which is what the First Cause must be), the book of Wisdom, and the book of Sirach, not to say anything of the Psalms, the writings of the Prophets, or the New Testament.

    I would also just point out that, regardless of whether the first cause is "my" God (which seems a contradiction, as my God is identified with the first cause in its definition), it is nevertheless proven that a being - "God" - exists.

    Quote:

    It is rather apparent to me that the great majority of religions tend to have some sort of creation story involving a divinity, thereby meeting the first cause requirement. Your further requirement that the first cause also be "one, omnipotent, all-loving" is a presupposition. How do we determine by reason that the first cause must be "one, omnipotent, all-loving", by virtue of being the first cause?

    A creator is not sufficent for the First Cause. What is needed is an absolute creator who used no prior material or spiritual principles to create the world and who does so by matter of fact of his own existence. Further, the first cause must be one, all-powerful, ect. because, as the first cause, any correlated causes (other first causes - other "God"s) would be merely superfluous, in the sense that they would not differ in essence from the First Cause and hence (without the individuating principle of matter) would be the same one God.

    Quote:

    - Zeus and Hera are not "first causes", but they are part of the Greek pantheon which does have a creator/first cause - Gaia

     No first cause = no "God"

    Actually, the previous cause of Gaia is not clearly defined, as Greek mythology is not a definite theology. Uranus is either prior to or coexistent with Gaia. Further, Chaos is prior to Gaia and her cause. Also, she was often overcome by other gods in ursurping her dominion.

    Quote:

    - Thor is not a "first cause", but is part of the Norse pantheon; Odin is also part of the Norse pantheon, and did in fact create the world, along with two other gods, Vili and Ve (Trinity, anyone?).

    No first cause = no "God"

    Again, Norse mythology is not a definite theology.  We can ascertain that Odin was the greatest among the Aesir, according to the Prose Edda, son of Bestla and Borr, brother of Vili and Ve. Further, Odin created the world with the body of a frost giant. Further, no Trinity exists because these are merely Odin's brothers, not persons equal in essence and of one hypostatis with him. Further, they are only gods among the many gods in existence in Nordic mythology, with many gods greater than them.

    Quote:

    - Shiva is not a "first cause", but is part of the Hindu pantheon which does have a creator - Brahma. Shiva (the destroyer), Brahma (the creator), and Vishnu (the preserver) represent the 3 chief Hindu gods (Trinity again, anyone?)

    Not first cause = no "God"

    The definition you place with Brahma, Shiva, and Vishnu is a false one. First, there is no clear interpretation of the Hindu religion, as their doctrines often conflict and carry different meanings according to their schools. Further, Vishnu is the creator of the other two. Further, while there is some more recent movement in Hindu schools toward a monotheistic conception of their divinities, this has occurred mainly in connection with modern philosophy and especially Christian ideas. All previous thought in Hinduism has been almost entirely polytheistic in the same way the Nordic were.

    Quote:
     

    So what you have done is thrown out the names of some deities to support your claim, in ignorance of the fact there were other deities in the same tradition who did fit the required niche.

    None of these deities satisfy the requirements for "God" as given by the nature of the first cause.

    Quote:

    So now, after having for so long pointed out the consonance of faith and reason, you all of sudden mention a distinction between reason and "natural reason", and throw in the added element of "revelation".

    I made a distinction between the operations of the intellect.

    There is something called "reason" which is the ability of my mind to know or to reason in general.

    There is "reason" or "natural reason" where the term means "the human mind's ability to know things without God's revelation."

    There is "faith" which we define as "the knowledge which proceeds from God's authority, who reveals the truth and cannot decieve nor be decieved." 

    "Revelation" is knowledge that comes from God's revealing action, or the object of Revelation.

    Quote:

    I can't say whether this encompasses all your claims, but you certainly have a circular logic here which effectively lets you support any claim. Where natural reason fails, throw in revelation, and anything goes.

    I was not claiming that revelation was involved in contradicting reason. However, we have to delineate their limits respectively. Further, there is no circular logic here; prove it. Further, "where natural reason fails" is the reason we must use Revelation to proceed to certain truths about God, such as the fact that He is Trinity, or that God became man, or any of the other things which are properly articles of faith. I do not use it to contradict reason, but merely to complement its knowledge. It never acts as a supplement for reason, properly speaking. That is precisely why we must delineate the bounds of both types of knowledge.

    Quote:
      

    Of course, practicioners of other religions will claim they also receive revelation from their gods, but you will reject their claims, because they aren't "first cause" gods, or they don't use reason along with their faith or whatever. So you will keep jumping from reason to revelation and back again, and always stay ahead of the game.

    I reject them because they are not rational. The reason they are not rational is because they conflict with what we know about God naturally. Revelation cannot conflict with naturally known truth. I never refer to the Revelation I accept to "refute" theirs, as such a process would be utterly fruitless and pointless. I can, however, refute them on the level of natural reason.

    Quote:

    At this point, I'm not really sure I see any worth in you responding (although I'm sure you will, just to show you haven't conceded). I don't see any worth because you will either skirt the issue and claim later that you "proved" it, requiring a string of diversionary posts just to revisit that "proof", or you will use your reason/revelation dodging game to avoid ever being put on the spot.

    I am on the spot, proving my position right now. Tell me how I am not proving the issue to your satisfaction, or where you find problems in my logic, and I will clarify. I am not purposely dodging anybody's objections because I see no reason to. I think the proof is logically sound and can stand on its own without any "dodging." 

    Quote:

    Rather than approaching the debate with an impartial mind, you have presupposed that everything about the catholic church is true, and will use whatever methods necessary to argue the truth of those presuppositions, whether it be casuistry or the method of exhaustion (paragraph upon paragraph of indecipherable prose).

    Why would I believe what I believe if I did not believe that the Catholic Church taught truth? I follow my conscience and my reason where it leads me. I believe that the Catholic Church has the fulness of truth, but that does not make me unfair in reasoning with others. I could just as easily put the argument the other way around, asserting that, "You cannot be impartial, because you accept that atheism is true." There is no reason to believe this has anything to do with my fairness or quality of argument in my debate.

    Further, you imply that I would lie or pursue an untruthful path in order to prove the Catholic Church's truth. If this charge would be true, I would waste all my time in responding to him, as he undoubtedly wants to be the result - that I am taken to be a liar and duplicitous. Controversy ought to be decided by reason, not by the misgivings about my intentions.

    I take offense very specifically at the charge that I am untruthful. I would never, ever, ever do any such thing. The truth exists on its own ground and is sufficent proof, by itself, without any tampering, that it is truth. I would seriously offend the truth if I committed an untruth in order to further its cause. I do not write for my own sake, but for the sake of Eternal Truth.

    Quote:

    Seriously, if you have to expound on how racoons interact with carrots to "prove" the existence of the soul, you are really, really grabbing at straws.

    It is called an "analogy" or an "illustration." 

    Further, the interaction of immaterial carrots and raccoons was the invention of my opponents. 

     

    Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,

    StMichael

    Psalm 50(1):8. For behold thou hast loved truth: the uncertain and hidden things of thy wisdom thou hast made manifest to me.


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    Quote: More accurately, if

    Quote:
    More accurately, if you do not love God, you will never be happy and this is the pain of hell.

    Then I'm already in hell, and I can tell you it's not that bad. You only need to believe this for YOUR benefit. Not mine.

    If I can be sufficiently happy without god, then maybe you too could be happy without god...and this you cannot allow.


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    Hambydammit wrote:

    Hambydammit wrote:

    I can say that the piece of lint in my back pocket is the first cause, and it has as much validity as what you say.

    I was going to say it was the invisible purple snarfwidget that lives in my pocket, but lint works. Smiling By the way, who came up with the term "snarfwidget"? I love it and have used it in discourse promoting our "atheistic agenda." Laughing out loud I used the exact phrase "invisible purple snarfwidget that lives in my pocket."

    Coincidence? I think not. Perhaps we should explore this link between deities and pockets? What has it gots in its nasty little pocketses? godses? We mussst have the precioussss!

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    You are not in hell now,

    You are not in hell now, due to God's providence. You would be if you rejected Him as your final end and then died. There is room for the time being to pursue God, but after death such a thing becomes moot.

     

    Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,

    StMichael

     

    Psalm 50(1):8. For behold thou hast loved truth: the uncertain and hidden things of thy wisdom thou hast made manifest to me.


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    StMichael wrote: You are

    StMichael wrote:

    You are not in hell now, due to God's providence. You would be if you rejected Him as your final end and then died. There is room for the time being to pursue God, but after death such a thing becomes moot.

    Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,

    StMichael

    I never understand this but why, assuming you are right, can't you ask forgiveness after you die? Is there anywhere in the bible that says you can only do this before you die? If you are right we are all going to meet Jesus for judgement right? Why can't He accept your repentence then?

    I realize the church will miss out on some tithing if that was the case but isn't Jesus a forgiving fellow?

    Without Christ,

    Shayne


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    Quote: I never understand

    Quote:

    I never understand this but why, assuming you are right, can't you ask forgiveness after you die?

     The will of man is deliberate and unable to change after seperation from the body. The matter with which the mind knows now is the reason it changes. If we choose something seperated from the body, or die having chosen a particular object, the mind continues to choose that thing without changing.

    The same is true of the will of the angels, though of course they never possessed bodies and hence their wills are determinate by nature.

    This is the reason our happiness can be eternal (why can the blessed angels/saints not sin?).

    Quote:
     

    Is there anywhere in the bible that says you can only do this before you die? If you are right we are all going to meet Jesus for judgement right? Why can't He accept your repentence then?

    The judgement of man after the Resurrection occurs in a state where man is united to the glorified bodies, and not according to how they are currently united. The soul will act as if it were seperate, following its will deliberately.

    But there is also a private and individual judgement which occurs immediately after the seperation of the soul from the body in death, where your will is again determinate and fixed.

     The Scriptures say this in many places. First, any mention of eternal punishment or reward would indicate that the wills of men are obstinate after death. Second, any place mentioning the sin of the angels puts them in eternal obstinancy to God or eternal beatitude for the same reason. Third, for one example explicit in Scripture, I quote the Psalms 73:23: "The pride of them that hate Thee, ascendeth continually." Fourth, just page through the Gospels to find examples of this (where Christ speaks of being cast into Gehenna, or the wailing and gnashing of teeth, or the parable of the foolish virgins, ect.). Lastly, the book of Revelation also clearly lays out that the devil and his angels, as well as the damned, will clearly persist in their sins after death.

    Quote:

    I realize the church will miss out on some tithing if that was the case but isn't Jesus a forgiving fellow?

    Jesus forgives, but He does not forgive what is against our disposition. If we do not repent of our sins, Jesus does not forgive them. Grace does not destroy nature, and God does not destroy our free will. We must choose God and pursue virtue in this life in order to be happy with Him for eternity.

    Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,

    StMichael

    Psalm 50(1):8. For behold thou hast loved truth: the uncertain and hidden things of thy wisdom thou hast made manifest to me.


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    Hambydammit wrote: I'm not

    Hambydammit wrote:

    I'm not kidding this time. I'm officially done trying to reason with you. I am truly sorry we've failed you. You've hung on for so long, I thought maybe there was a chance you'd at least recognize your own inconsistent arguments for what they are.

    StMichael, I'm through, too.  You haven't answered for any of the logical fallacies pointed out in your baseless assertions except to make more baseless assertions.  It's evident we're failing to achieve a meeting of meanings here.  I'm guessing that you and I don't agree on what the meaning of "reason" is.  You broaden the definition to include your faith without realizing I could just as easily broaden it to include the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the piece of lint in hambydammit's back pocket.

    I'm going to hand off to someone who has a bit more patience.  We've already sung "Hole in the Bucket" through a few dozen times.  When you learn another song, let me know. 

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    StMichael wrote: We must

    StMichael wrote:
    We must choose God and pursue virtue in this life in order to be happy with Him for eternity.
    Happiness includes being in a state of contentment most of the time, and experiencing mostly positive emotions the majority of the time as well as being able to keep an positive attitude during periods of hardship. That includes the ability to detatch yourself from the harsh cruel realities of life, especially the ones that are totally beyond your control.

    It was worth working to achieve and I am a very happy person. Learning to think about the postive and downplay the negative were factors in helping me learn to be happy. I think it helps or may be necessary in most cases to have fairly good health, an emotional support system, and basic material needs such as food and sheltor in order to achieve happiness. There are some people who can be happy without much of anything. I don't think material things make one happy but they can make life easier.

    The downside of being happy has been that it sometimes causes me to lack the motivation to change or improve myself. I'm just too happy to care.Im happy as a child who scored the highest in math. I dont need an imaginary dictator to be happy.

    God had no time to create time.


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    Quote: I'm guessing that

    Quote:

    I'm guessing that you and I don't agree on what the meaning of "reason" is.  You broaden the definition to include your faith without realizing I could just as easily broaden it to include the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the piece of lint in hambydammit's back pocket.

    I gave the multiple senses in which the term "reason" can be used.

    Faith is a form of knowledge and, hence, rational. I do not include articles of faith in my definition of "reason." If I do, show me where I do.

    God's existence is proven by natural reason. This has been upheld. But this is not an article held on faith. This is something anybody with a mind can know, regardless of whether God revealed other truths to them or not. An exclusive domain of something that can only be known by faith is a truth like: God is Three Persons and One God. God's existence is something naturally knowable. But even the Trinity is an inherently reasonable/rationable belief, in accord with reason.

     

    Your In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,

    StMichael

    Psalm 50(1):8. For behold thou hast loved truth: the uncertain and hidden things of thy wisdom thou hast made manifest to me.


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      Quote: Happiness

     

    Quote:
    Happiness includes being in a state of contentment most of the time, and experiencing mostly positive emotions the majority of the time as well as being able to keep an positive attitude during periods of hardship. That includes the ability to detatch yourself from the harsh cruel realities of life, especially the ones that are totally beyond your control.

    This is a rather limited definition. Happiness is the perfect and uninteruppted possession of the good. If I am in pain at any point in time, I am not happy. If I am suffering hardships, I am not perfectly happy.

    It could be used as a mere definition of contentment. But contentment is not equal to happiness. It is not perfect happiness; it is only a colloquial way of saying "I am happy." 

     

    Quote:

    It was worth working to achieve and I am a very happy person. Learning to think about the postive and downplay the negative were factors in helping me learn to be happy. I think it helps or may be necessary in most cases to have fairly good health, an emotional support system, and basic material needs such as food and sheltor in order to achieve happiness...

    I dont need an imaginary dictator to be happy.
    God is necessary for perfect happiness. You are happy only in a limited sense. After death, these things that you have now do not exist. Further, these things that you have now are limited goods in themselves (food is only so good). You desire to be perfectly happy a state of infinite pleasure in an infinite good, possessed forever. This can only be found in God. And, further, after death, when you have rejoiced in these temporal finite goods, you will be denied the ultimate Good; this is hell (which could even just be called, "unhappiness." Further, death itself gives us clearly the indication that the goods here and now cannot be possessed perfectly because they cannot be possessed forever.Perfect happiness only exists in the perfect possession of the infinite Good that man desires. We do not desire merely a finite good, we desire an infinite good. Only God satisfies; everything else will be your hell if you cling to it (even in this life, but ultimately the next).Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,StMichael

    Psalm 50(1):8. For behold thou hast loved truth: the uncertain and hidden things of thy wisdom thou hast made manifest to me.


    Vastet
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    Faith isn't knowledge. It's

    Faith isn't knowledge. It's belief. *Shakes head*

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    Vastet wrote: Faith isn't

    Vastet wrote:
    Faith isn't knowledge. It's belief. *Shakes head*

    Say it another eighty billion times.  Think it will sink in? Smiling 

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    Vastet
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    Lol. I kind of doubt it. But

    Lol. I kind of doubt it. But he seems to think that repeating "faith is knowledge" over and over will suddenly make it more credible than before. Who knows, maybe his own logic can work against him?

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    Vastet wrote: maybe his own

    Vastet wrote:
    maybe his own logic can work against him?
    Yes.


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    I don't think that will

    I don't think that will work. It seems to be like this:

    1. We know God exists and must exist becuase of X

    Atheist response: But X can be applied to the Flying Spaghetti Monster (or whatever), too.

    2. No, because X only applies to God. God doesn't need logic. Everything else does but not God. Therefore no matter what the actual facts are I can come up with an excuse for God. Never mind that's completely ad hoc. And we could use similar arguments to prove anything.

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    MattShizzle wrote: I don't

    MattShizzle wrote:

    I don't think that will work. It seems to be like this:

    1. We know God exists and must exist becuase of X

    Atheist response: But X can be applied to the Flying Spaghetti Monster (or whatever), too.

    2. No, because X only applies to God. God doesn't need logic. Everything else does but not God. Therefore no matter what the actual facts are I can come up with an excuse for God. Never mind that's completely ad hoc. And we could use similar arguments to prove anything.

    I think that's the process going through StMichael's mind.  His god seems to be immune to rational thought, but no one else's god is. Smiling  It's really interesting to be looking at all this from the outside, to see various theists explain why their god is the ONE TRUE GOD.  Most of them have been Christians that completely rejected the beliefs of other Christians. Smiling   That in and of itself disqualifies faith as a path to knowledge.  Fascinating.

    I can't believe I used to be one of them! :D 

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    I never was as an adult.

    I never was as an adult.


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    MattShizzle wrote:

    MattShizzle wrote:
    I never was as an adult.

    I'm grumpy enough to say there is no such thing as an adult Christian. Smiling Christians stay in Never Never Land their whole lives. I'm trying to grow up, but I feel the Christian religion stunted me, somewhat.

     Warning: All of yesterday's and today's opinions were written while under the influence of angioedema...bleccch!

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    I've said before, I

    I've said before, I considered myself agnostic by age 16 - had slowly believed less and less from maybe age 11 or 12 - only considered myself truly atheist not quite 2 years ago, but by the time I was 21 I would have said "agnostic leaning toward atheist." Seriously, though, if you weren't raised to believe this shit, you'd have to be fucking insane to believe it on its own.

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    Vastet
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    Only reason I didn't call

    Only reason I didn't call myself an atheist at the age of 5 was I didn't even learn the word until I was maybe 12. > >

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    Quote: Faith isn't

    Quote:

    Faith isn't knowledge. It's belief. *Shakes head*

    If faith is not knowledge, define "knowledge." As you have not offered any definition, I think we can agree to define knowledge as "the intellectual possession of an idea." More properly, true or accurate knowledge is the intellectual possession of a truth.

    Faith is acceptance of a truth because of an authority. I believe it when somebody trustworthy tells me it is raining outside. This is knowledge of a certain type. I possess a truth about the world in my mind, based on the authority of another.

    Faith in religion is a species of this. I believe that God is Three and One because Christ told me so, and Christ demonstrated that He was God. Thus, I accept the truth and possess it intellectually. Thus, faith is a species of knowledge because it enables me to possess intellectually an idea or truth, based on the authority of Almighty God.

     

    Quote:

    1. We know God exists and must exist becuase of X

    Atheist response: But X can be applied to the Flying Spaghetti Monster (or whatever), too.

    If you want, you can explain how my proof applies to a Flying Spaghetti Monster, ect. There is no current reason that it does.

    Quote:

    2. No, because X only applies to God. God doesn't need logic. Everything else does but not God. Therefore no matter what the actual facts are I can come up with an excuse for God. Never mind that's completely ad hoc. And we could use similar arguments to prove anything.

    Except that I never endorse this at all. God is the ground is the basis of logic. God is the author of natural truth as well as revelation, and it would make God a liar to contradict Himself.

     

    Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,

    StMichael

     

    Psalm 50(1):8. For behold thou hast loved truth: the uncertain and hidden things of thy wisdom thou hast made manifest to me.


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    I'll acknowledge that I held

    I'll acknowledge that I held on for quite a while to my beliefs - and holding the assumption of truth about god and the church, I sought to craft a logical basis to support the belief (you may have noticed someone doing that elsewhere in this thread).  It was because of my passionate beliefs that I decided to investigate further, whereupon it began to make less and less sense.  I came to realize how easy it is to twist facts and words to support assumptions.

    There are no theists on operating tables.

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    Knowledge is knowing

    Knowledge is knowing something because of facts. Not because anyone says it is so. Knowledge is real. Faith is idiocy.

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    StMichael

    StMichael wrote:

    Quote:

    Faith isn't knowledge. It's belief. *Shakes head*

    If faith is not knowledge, define "knowledge." As you have not offered any definition, I think we can agree to define knowledge as "the intellectual possession of an idea." More properly, true or accurate knowledge is the intellectual possession of a truth.

    Faith is acceptance of a truth because of an authority. I believe it when somebody trustworthy tells me it is raining outside. This is knowledge of a certain type. I possess a truth about the world in my mind, based on the authority of another.

    Faith in religion is a species of this. I believe that God is Three and One because Christ told me so, and Christ demonstrated that He was God. Thus, I accept the truth and possess it intellectually. Thus, faith is a species of knowledge because it enables me to possess intellectually an idea or truth, based on the authority of Almighty God.

     

    Quote:

    1. We know God exists and must exist becuase of X

    Atheist response: But X can be applied to the Flying Spaghetti Monster (or whatever), too.

    If you want, you can explain how my proof applies to a Flying Spaghetti Monster, ect. There is no current reason that it does.

    Quote:

    2. No, because X only applies to God. God doesn't need logic. Everything else does but not God. Therefore no matter what the actual facts are I can come up with an excuse for God. Never mind that's completely ad hoc. And we could use similar arguments to prove anything.

    Except that I never endorse this at all. God is the ground is the basis of logic. God is the author of natural truth as well as revelation, and it would make God a liar to contradict Himself.

    Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,

    StMichael

    The entire realm of human belief is made up of pretty much one thing: probabilities of something being "true", arrived at based on rules of thumb. Through evolution, we have some pretty decent rules of thumb, but they ended up giving up a lot of false positives. Lately, we've come up with the scientific method which seems to do a better job of giving us high probabilities of something being "true" (or, in other words, giving us explanations that have predictive power). Every thing you believe, whether you believe in God or in his non-existence, or whether you believe that smoking causes cancer, or that second-hand smoke causes cancer, or that swimming is dangerous, or whatever it is--not a single one of those beliefs is made without evidence (where "evidence" means you used one of your senses to get information about the subject), and not a single one of those beliefs is made with evidence (where "evidence" means some sort of "direct" evidence that excludes reading studies in peer-reviewed journals about the correlation of smoking and lung cancer). Certainly we can talk about degrees of evidence--if the only evidence you had that smoking causes cancer is that you heard somebody mention it once, that wouldn't be very strong evidence, and you wouldn't be warranted in having a very strong belief about it. If you heard lots of people saying it, and never heard anyone contradict it, that might be stronger evidence. If you read results from studies published by your local newspaper, that would be stronger still. If you read the studies directly from a peer-reviewed journal, that might be even stronger. And if you participated in the studies yourself, that could be still stronger evidence. And so forth. But in all cases, we're simply talking about degrees of belief, based on experience (which most people would call "evidence&quotEye-wink.

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    StMichael

    StMichael wrote:

    Quote:

    Faith isn't knowledge. It's belief. *Shakes head*

    If faith is not knowledge, define "knowledge." As you have not offered any definition, I think we can agree to define knowledge as "the intellectual possession of an idea." More properly, true or accurate knowledge is the intellectual possession of a truth.

     And finally some of your irrationality makes sense. Though it's still irrational. It is now clear to me that you think you need to believe something to know it, and that the opposite applies in turn. This is false. The sky isn't blue because I believe it. It's blue because of light refraction.

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    First, in response to

    First, in response to zarathustra:

    It is irrelevant and a leading comment when you say that you find facts can easily be twisted. You imply that my arguments are false. However, if you wish to say that I am a liar, point to where I am lying and don't just accuse me of it without evidence.

    Also, in response to Matt:

     

    Quote:

    Knowledge is knowing something because of facts. Not because anyone says it is so. Knowledge is real. Faith is idiocy.

    I think you ought to define "knowing something because of facts." Further, this is a bad definition because it includes what it intends to define in the definition. Further, if you mean that all knowledge must be certain, I challenge that your knowledge that this website exists is not certain and hence you do not "know" that this website exists.

    Finally, just to define knowledge as "real" and faith as "idiocy" does not bring us anywhere because your definitions are arbitrary and unjustified. Faith, assuming that it is true, speaks of real things. Even if we do not accept that it is true, faith does generally speaking answer a question about a real choice of realities (whether or not God is Triune, for example, where the case is clearly that it is one or the other).

     Faith in religion is a species of that faith found in everyday life. For example, "Mr. Johnson needs the TPS reports by Tuesday," is a statement that is accepted on faith. You accept the authority, for example, of Mr. Johnson's secretary in order to accept the truth of the statement. Now you can truly say that you know that Mr. Johnson wants the TPS reports Tuesday. We believe articles of faith because God has revealed them; this, further, makes their grounds for accepting them all the more certain.

     

    Quote:

    The entire realm of human belief is made up of pretty much one thing: probabilities of something being "true", arrived at based on rules of thumb.

    That is not true at all. Human knowledge does know some truths with certainty. Truths of mathematics, philosophically logically necessary precepts, and the like.  

    Quote:

    Through evolution, we have some pretty decent rules of thumb, but they ended up giving up a lot of false positives.

    I have no idea what you are referring to when you say "false positives." Further, there is no evidence that evolution produced truth in general. If it did, you steal the concept and "truth" no longer has meaning.

    Quote:
     

    Lately, we've come up with the scientific method which seems to do a better job of giving us high probabilities of something being "true" (or, in other words, giving us explanations that have predictive power).

    That is what truth is; a conformity of what we know to reality. However, the scientific method does give us knowledge so that we can make accurate statements about the natural world.

    Quote:
     

    Every thing you believe, whether you believe in God or in his non-existence, or whether you believe that smoking causes cancer, or that second-hand smoke causes cancer, or that swimming is dangerous, or whatever it is--not a single one of those beliefs is made without evidence (where "evidence" means you used one of your senses to get information about the subject), and not a single one of those beliefs is made with evidence (where "evidence" means some sort of "direct" evidence that excludes reading studies in peer-reviewed journals about the correlation of smoking and lung cancer).

    That phrase is a contradiction. All beliefs are made with evidence, yet not made with evidence.

    Further, I have direct evidence from senses that rocks on earth always fall down. This is a thing I can be reasonably certain about. Hence, I know that rocks always fall down.

     

    Quote:
     

    But in all cases, we're simply talking about degrees of belief, based on experience (which most people would call "evidence"Eye-wink.

    First, belief brings a form of certainty.

    Second, logically necessary truths, ect. bring an absolute certainty.

    Third, and? This does not attack my argument. In fact, it bolsters my arguement that faith is reasonable because we perform acts of faith constantly in every day life.

     

    Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,

    StMichael 

    Psalm 50(1):8. For behold thou hast loved truth: the uncertain and hidden things of thy wisdom thou hast made manifest to me.


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    Quote: The sky isn't blue

    Quote:

    The sky isn't blue because I believe it. It's blue because of light refraction.

    You use belief to substantiate that the sky is blue because of light refraction. Unless you have actually performed direct scientific tests upon the fact, you have no direct knowledge that the sky is in fact blue because of light refraction. You accept this on faith from those who have. This is rational and reasonable faith which affords a form of certainity, but it is still the same faith that religious persons use (albeit with a different object and source of authority).

     

    Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,

    StMichael

     

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    Bad, Bad horrible arguments

    Bad, Bad horrible arguments (as usual.) We KNOW Mr. Johnson (in your example) exists. No real evidence for God. And Faith is believing something with no evidence whatsoever. Christians always misuse the word for atheists. It isn't "faith" that we believe the light will go on when we turn the switch, it's that virtually every time we turn the switch the light goes on. Plus what we know about electricity, etc. And if the light doesn't go on it doesn't shatter our whole world view - we assume the power is out, or the circuit breaker switched, or the bulb blew out, the light broke, etc. Then we do something about it to find out which it is.

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    Quote: We KNOW Mr. Johnson

    Quote:

    We KNOW Mr. Johnson (in your example) exists. No real evidence for God.

    We KNOW that God exists. Natural inquiry clearly shows us that it is logically necessary that a first cause exist for the universe. This is God. More elaboration will doubtless be needed, but that is the basic point.

    Quote:
     

    And Faith is believing something with no evidence whatsoever.

    OK, but you have not given any reason I should accept your definition. I am the one who has faith and it is my definition that I have to defend, not yours. Further, I think you do have faith in ordinary situations.  

    Quote:

    Christians always misuse the word for atheists. It isn't "faith" that we believe the light will go on when we turn the switch, it's that virtually every time we turn the switch the light goes on.

    It is faith, but not religious faith. It is a reasonable faith that you except that every time the lightswitch is flipped, the light will go on. 

     

    Quote:

    Plus what we know about electricity, etc.

    And? We know things about God without Revelation.

    Quote:
     And if the light doesn't go on it doesn't shatter our whole world view - we assume the power is out, or the circuit breaker switched, or the bulb blew out, the light broke, etc. Then we do something about it to find out which it is.

    That is because we are talking about different truths. I would believe that it would be a big deal if you found out that God exists; would this shatter your worldview? Even naturally known truths such as the fact "the earth revolves around the sun," if changed, can rock our worldview. The argument is non-unique.

     

    Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,

    StMichael

     

    Psalm 50(1):8. For behold thou hast loved truth: the uncertain and hidden things of thy wisdom thou hast made manifest to me.


    StMichael
    Theist
    StMichael's picture
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    Quote: We KNOW Mr. Johnson

    Quote:

    We KNOW Mr. Johnson (in your example) exists. No real evidence for God.

    We KNOW that God exists. Natural inquiry clearly shows us that it is logically necessary that a first cause exist for the universe. This is God. More elaboration will doubtless be needed, but that is the basic point.

    Quote:
     

    And Faith is believing something with no evidence whatsoever.

    OK, but you have not given any reason I should accept your definition. I am the one who has faith and it is my definition that I have to defend, not yours. Further, I think you do have faith in ordinary situations.  

    Quote:

    Christians always misuse the word for atheists. It isn't "faith" that we believe the light will go on when we turn the switch, it's that virtually every time we turn the switch the light goes on.

    It is faith, but not religious faith. It is a reasonable faith that you except that every time the lightswitch is flipped, the light will go on. 

     

    Quote:

    Plus what we know about electricity, etc.

    And? We know things about God without Revelation.

    Quote:
     And if the light doesn't go on it doesn't shatter our whole world view - we assume the power is out, or the circuit breaker switched, or the bulb blew out, the light broke, etc. Then we do something about it to find out which it is.

    That is because we are talking about different truths. I would believe that it would be a big deal if you found out that God exists; would this shatter your worldview? Even naturally known truths such as the fact "the earth revolves around the sun," if changed, can rock our worldview. The argument is non-unique.

     

    Yours In Christ, Eternal Wisdom,

    StMichael

     

    Psalm 50(1):8. For behold thou hast loved truth: the uncertain and hidden things of thy wisdom thou hast made manifest to me.


    MattShizzle
    Posts: 7966
    Joined: 2006-03-31
    User is offlineOffline
    There you go

    There you go again....

    First of all, the First Cause argument is acceptable to YOU. We don't consider it valid. The Earth going around the Sun isn't a "naturally known" truth - in fact, it would actually be counter to what people "naturally know", as it appears otherwise. However, since we have been in space we have seen for a fact it's that way. Of course seeing some of your arguments, I wouldn't be surprised to learn you're one of those people who think the moon landing was faked in a Hollywood studio.

    Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team