Christianity in a nutshell

dmiclock
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Christianity in a nutshell

Hello All,

I wanted to thank you all for the opportunity to partake in some of the discussions recently, and I would be remiss if I didn't take an opportunity to spread God's Word. So I ask you to please lend me your eyes and your mind for just a few minutes and read below:

God created this universe and everything in it, including each one of us. Because He wanted to, and He could.

We were created with free will, a conscience that convicts us, and the law written on each of our hearts.

We were created to seek Him and reach out for Him - though He is not far from any of us.

Sin entered the world via our free will, and as such so did death, dissease, aging, etc..

God hates sin.

God is Just, and as such must punish those who break His laws.

God Loves all of us, even though we're all sinners.

When we choose to sin, we reject God and show contempt for all He has given us.

God calls us to repent from our sins and put our trust in Him. This means more and more, we strive to sin less and less.
As a result we become better people, not perfect people.

Jesus came to preach the Gospel, and take the punishment that each one of us deserves for our sins.
The wages of sin is death.

Christianity is different in the respect that all other religions are "Work Righteous" meaning that the more good things one does, the better the chances he/she goes to heaven. We get heaven not because we're good people, but because we're wretched sinners who accept the fact that our sins are paid in full for through the blood of Jesus.

It may not make sense to yo, and you may not like it, but....
Have a Merry Christmas.

All the ways of the Lord are loving and faithful for those who keep the demands of His covenant.


Insidium Profundis
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dmiclock wrote:The entire

dmiclock wrote:
The entire secular world hates the Jews.

I am secular and I do not hate the Jews. None of my friends, most of whom are secular, hate the Jews. I can't think of any secular humanist organization which states that it hates the Jews. Support this assertion.

Quote:
Secular humanism has killed more people than any entity ever.

Please support this assertion. Also please do not make the obvious fallacy of bringing up communism which, while being atheistic, certainly was not secular humanism.

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.


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Quote:Are you a good person?

Quote:
Are you a good person? Compared to who?

I am a good person compared to anyone who would expect people to go through their lives burdened by baseless shame.

Quote:
Do you lie?
Do you steal?
Do you harbor hate for anyone unjustly?
Have you committed adultery?
Do you take the Lord's name in vain?

No to all of those things except for taking the lord's name in vain. You see, that's not actually a bad thing since there isn't a lord. So godamnit to hell, I'll keep doing it.

Quote:
That's 5 of the 10. How'd you do? Lets play IF. If the Bible is true and If you were to die tonight would you be guilty or innocent? Would you go to heaven or hell.

A baseless argument. If I die tonight, I'm going to a morgue.

Now you see, you haven't proved how this concept isn't twisted to me yet. You implied earlier that sin is not just in action, but in thought. That puts your concept of sin on the exact opposite of morality. There is nothing moral about damning someone for their thoughts and honsetly don't give a shit what your bible has to say to the contrary.

Jesus died for somebody's sins, but not mine


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Quote:During Hitler's reign,

Quote:
During Hitler's reign, the traditional crest was replaced by the Nazi swastika and eagle, however the religious inscription remained unaltered. It is thought that part of the reason the Nazi government retained this motto was an attempt on the part of Hitler to retain the support of Christians, who comprised the overwhelming majority of German citizens.

I absolutely agree! A majority of the German people were Christian prior to gradual takeover by the party. But Hitler did not pursue the final solution under the guise of a Catholic crusade against the Jews.

And the party did use every and any tool they could to manipulate the masses.

And, yes I was kidding about the Agnostic Atheism crack.

Religion of any kind is the first to go in any totaliterian society.

All the ways of the Lord are loving and faithful for those who keep the demands of His covenant.


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dmiclock wrote:Quote:During

dmiclock wrote:
Quote:
During Hitler's reign, the traditional crest was replaced by the Nazi swastika and eagle, however the religious inscription remained unaltered. It is thought that part of the reason the Nazi government retained this motto was an attempt on the part of Hitler to retain the support of Christians, who comprised the overwhelming majority of German citizens.

I absolutely agree! A majority of the German people were Christian prior to gradual takeover by the party. But Hitler did not pursue the final solution under the guise of a Catholic crusade against the Jews.

And the party did use every and any tool they could to manipulate the masses.

And, yes I was kidding about the Agnostic Atheism crack.

Religion of any kind is the first to go in any totaliterian society.

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." - Mein Kampf

I'm not 100% sure if this line was directly the start of the Final Solution though.


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dmiclock wrote:TodangstAll

dmiclock wrote:
Todangst

All the arguments you made above are good ones.

Thank you.

Quote:

Why wouldn't God just create a world where eveything is perfect, where there was no sin, no disease, no death, and where he shows himself to us daily.

Well we had that, and we screwed it up.

And yet, you're right back to making the same mistake I've already corrected two times.

Quote:

Sin screwed it up for all of us. Did God know there was sin, yes, but we still had the choice to avoid it.

You're NOT PAYING ATTENTION.

One more time.

An omnipotent, omniscient being is pefectly responsible for everything that happens within his own creation. So you can't pawn off the blame onto his own creation, by saying we 'chose to sin'.

Again this is because this god is responsible for creating the concept of 'choosing' and the concept of "sin' in the first place!

He creates the dilemma! He then creates people, and their worlds, which means he would have created people knowing full well what would happen! He could have made things different. He didn't . So he's responsible!

Here, let me explain this is more depth:

"God" the Ironworker and why the freewill defense fails.

In brief: If there is an omnipotent, omniscient creator, then this creator is perfectly responsible for every aspect of his creation, as an omnipotent, omniscienct creator is necessarily responsible for creating every parameter of existence. Thus it follows that the free will defense for the problem of evil must fail, because freewill cannot coexist with a perfectly responsible creator.

Let's review:

It necessarily follows that such a creator is 1) is responsible for creating the concept of free will, 2) responsible for creating its limits/parameters 3) responsible for granting it to his creation (when he need not have done so, despite the possible deleterious outcomes it might cause for his creation) and 4) responsible for the character of the person and the nature of the environment, which of course dictate choice!

This means that even if we were to grant that people had free will (and it's really moot at this point) an omnipotent creator would still be necessarily perfectly responsible for dicating whatever outcomes occurred within his universe. Which means that the free will defense against the argument from evil fails. Again, in short, an omnipotent, omniscient creator obivates free will.

Here's a nice follow up on this point written by Knight of Baawa:

Which is why all the xer sects save Calvinism (with their doctrine of predestination) are dishonest on this point. I have yet to meet an xer who will deal with their god being both omniscient, omnipotent, and the creator of everything at the same time in an argument. They always leave a part out while making their claims, e.g. "Just because god knows everything doesn't mean he forces you to act in a certain
way", leaving out of course the notion that god created everything.

They simply can't deal with all the concepts at once, so they leave one out and imagine that they've taken care of everything. And when called on it, they scream at you and retreat into "it's just god's will/god works in mysterious ways", in essence conceding the point.

Such is the problem with mutually-exclusive and self-contradictory concepts trying to be shoehorned onto a tribal phallic symbol.

Now, here is an example that helps illustrate the point:

Inagine you want to stress test a pieceof metal that is going to be used in a building. You need it to bear up a certain weight, or it will prove to be unsafe for construction.

So you stress test it..., because you don't know what load it can bear. You apply a chosen amount of weight per square inch that you hold to be required to keep the building up, and if the metal cracks, you realize you need a better metal.

Now, imagine god is making the building. Let's tune in and watch:

God the Iron Worker

One day, god decides to make a building. He decides that the metal must be able to bear 2000 pounds per square inch. (He decides this based on fiat, of course, as god can never do anything out of necessity, as he is unlimited in what he does. )

So he makes a metal. This metal can bear 1900 pounds per square inch. He then tests the metal, and it shatters. "No good", he says, and makes another, this time, able to bear 1900 pounds per square inch.

He tests it again. It shatters. "Damn" he says, "No good again." God conjures up another piece. This one can bear 1900 pounds per square inch.....

Getting the point yet? An omnipotent, omniscient metal worker need not test the metal, for perfect metal worker is responsible for the fact that the metal passes or fails the test in the first place. This simple exercise helps us grasp that an omnipotent, omniscient creator must, necessarily, be perfectly responsible for every aspect of existence that in turn must dictate every outcome.

It therefore follows that 'god' cannot be all powerful/all knowing AND the creator of the universe AND create beings with free will AND then find them guilty for their behaviors, because such a god must also be perfectly responsible for every single solitary aspect of existence that determines their guilt, in the first place. An omnipotent, omniscient iron worker is perfectly responsible for his metal, just as a omnipotent, omniscient creator is perfectly responsible for his creation.

'God' creates ALL the parameters of existence - all of them... he decides the parameters of the metal, AND the test! 'God' could make the metal stronger or the test less strenuous, or do away with the test, or do away with the metal or even do away with the CONCEPTS of "metal", and "test" altogether and just make a building without them.... so the free will argument makes no sense, and fails in it's true goal - to absolve god from the true guilt for "sin", if it did exist.

When considering human behavior and morality, consider that god would have to be responsible for creating the very concepts of existence, behavior, humanity, morality, choice, 'good', "evil', and so on, with none of them being necessary parts of existence. Ergo, this god would have to control every aspect of a "choice', including human character, prediliction and every single solitary other aspect that shapes the choice!

Poof goes free will in such a universe. Even if it existed, it would be moot.

Parameters of existence

What do I mean when I use the term 'parameter of existence'?

What I mean is any aspect of reality, all of which would be under the purview of an omnipotent being. And, an omnipotent, omniscient creator is necessarily perfectly responsible for his own creation. This is so because this creator is responsible for creating all the parameters of existence, which in turn determine all outcomes.

Any and all of the parameters could have been different, so this god is responsible for them being as they actually are. Ergo this omnipotent being is perfectly responsible for his creation being precisely as it is, this includes the existence of free will, and it's limits. If there is an omnipotent, omniscient creator, the universe didn't have to work the way it currently works, it could exist without any of these things.

When I say 'parameter of existence', I mean every single aspect of existence, including the fact that existence exists. This 'god" would be responsible for the following: existence itself, the existence of our universe, the various'laws of physics - i.e. basic cosmology of our universe. To continue, this god would be responsible for the existence of concepts, or ideas, as well as the particular concepts and ideas that do exist, including ideas like 'good' and 'bad' and 'right' and "wrong'.

This god would be responsible for creating matter and energy, as well as responsible for the forms matter takes in the universe. This god would be responsible for creating the concept of life, of biology, and psychology. This god would be responsible for creating the concept of humanity, character, personality, temperament, as well as perfectly responsible for the particular personalities and temperaments that exist in humans.

This god would then be responsible for creating concepts like free will, and choice, including the existence of the idea of choice itself! As this god is also responsible for creating character and the environments within which people live, every possible factor that influences a free will choice, it necessarily follows that an omnipotent, omniscient creator necessarily obviates free will. After all, this god creates not only 'free will' but the parameters of free will. ... he decides what the limits are! He also decided the penalties for 'infractions', including the the very idea of a need for infractions and penalties!

A theist ought to ask:

Does he (god) create and control the environment we live in?

Does he create and control the possible range of human temperament, personal, character?

Does this god control the possible range of experiences we can experience?

Is he perfectly responsible for creating the universe as he "wills" it to be?

Is he resposible for creating every parameter of existence?

If so, how can this god not be perfectly responsible for his own creation, and thusly, every event that occurs within it?

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

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dmiclock wrote:noor wrote:

dmiclock wrote:
noor wrote:
I'm waiting for your response to my question, "Why did god give us the potential to sin?" You simply pick and choose one or two parts of my reply and then act like it rebutted the rest of the post.

Because God wants fellowship with those who want fellowship with Him.

You didn't answer the question. Read my above post and learn how to answer it.

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

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dmiclock wrote:Question for

dmiclock wrote:
Question for Todangst, Noor and Insidium:

I can't think for one moment that any of you participated in this ridiculous 'Blasphemy Challenge' that Sapient has going on.

Am I right?

I'd not label anything else as ridiculous if I were you.

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

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dmiclock wrote:Kemono

dmiclock wrote:
Kemono wrote:
Hi, dmiclock! Could you explain to me some things about Christianity that do not seem to make sense?

First, where does morality come from? Clearly human and animal morality is the product of evolution...

Morality comes from the Law (Ten Commandements)

Do you really need to refer to the 10 commandents in order not to rape someone?

Quote:

written on your heart.

If it's written on my heart, then why have the bible?

Quote:

The knowledge of right and wrong is your conscience, its hard wired into us by God.

You're a C S Lewis fan, whether you know it or not.

Our conscience is born of societal inculation - we learn right and wrong from our parents. We learn it so early that we ourselves forget it, and some of us, ignorant of psychology, actually mistake it for something 'supernatural'

Your claim violates the basic law of parsimony - if you don't know what that means, ask.

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

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dmiclock wrote:Morality

dmiclock wrote:

Morality comes from the Law (Ten Commandements) written on your heart. The knowledge of right and wrong is your conscience, its hard wired into us by God. When we break the Law, our conscience convicts us. We learn from that and do it no more.

So am I right to conclude that Christianity fails to explain why certain deeds (like saving a drowning man) are good and others (like murder) are bad? That god just decides, by god knows which criteria, what is good and what is bad? This is absurd. There is a pattern to what is perceived by humans as good and what as bad, and that pattern is explained by natural selection.

dmiclock wrote:
Clearly...., from what data? However, there is a good book on the subject, I'll get the name later.

From the data that gregarious animals which can differentiate between individuals and stand to gain from cooperation play the tit-for-tat strategy as predicted by the theory of evolution.


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Insidium Profundis

Insidium Profundis wrote:
dmiclock wrote:
Why would molecules decide to self replicate. And why can't we re-create this in a lab. We have all of the requirements.

Ahem. We can and we have.

Self-Reproducing Molecules Reported by MIT Researchers

PRIMITIVE LIFE

Self-Reproducing Molecules

Reported by MIT Researchers

By Eugene F. Mallove

News Office

A significant step toward understanding the origin of life may have been made by a group of MIT researchers. Led by Professor Julius Rebek, Jr. of the Department of Chemistry, they have created an extraordinary self-replicating molecular system that they say might be regarded as a "primitive sign of life."

Hey, don't let facts get in the way of his arguments!

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

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Insidium Profundis

Insidium Profundis wrote:
dmiclock wrote:
Secular humanism has killed more people than any entity ever.

Please support this assertion. Also please do not make the obvious fallacy of bringing up communism which, while being atheistic, certainly was not secular humanism.

Dmiclock, please support your statement.

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todangst wrote:

todangst wrote:
Our conscience is born of societal inculation - we learn right and wrong from our parents. We learn it so early that we ourselves forget it, and some of us, ignorant of psychology, actually mistake it for something 'supernatural' Your claim violates the basic law of parsimony - if you don't know what that means, ask.

 

I know this is tangental, but I wanted just to throw this is quickly. It might be a conversation to be had on one of the other threads.

I've been reading Marc D. Houser's new book, Moral Minds, and while not completely sold on his thesis, I think it has some merits.

 

The reason I bring it up here is that I think part of the confusion beteen the morals-come-from-god camp and the morals-come-from-society camp stems from the fact that (assuming Hauser is correct) there is a moral faculty that is essentially universal (that is, some lack in like some people lack eyesight), but it expresses itself in social rules.

The metaphor that Hauser uses is that the moral faculty work along the same lines as language, where we all have the faculty, but we speak different languages with syntax and so forth.

--- 

And the rest is for dimclock... 

My instinct here is that many people sense this moral faculty and associate it with a simple and seemingly universal set of rules, and then conclude (erroneously) that because our instincts tell us that murder and stealing are wrong, the Bible says the same thing, God inspired the Bible, that the reason we feel them instinctually is because God wrote it onto our hearts as well as dictated it in the Bible.

Doesn't it seem more likely that ancient people attributed our inner feelings and thoughts to God, the same way the ansients attributed everything internal? This is essential (pseudo-)Platonism here, people!

It seems more likely that we create God to explain all of the wierd shit our brain does, rather than God created us with brains that do wierd shit. When attributing the sense of right and wrong to God, you put cart squarely before the horse.

Oh, and what about the other commandments you didn't mention. Is keeping the Sabbath written on our hearts, too? How about having no God other than Yahweh? How about graven images? Are these things written on the hearts of the pygmies in East Africa before the missionaries showed up?

 

Shaun

 

 

I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.


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dmiclock wrote:noor

dmiclock wrote:
noor wrote:
Hitler, a Catholic, killed the Jews "in the name of the Lord."
You don't even come close to knowing what you're talking about here. Not even close. All religious expression was banned under Nazi Control and all the top leaders of the NSDAP actively engaged in the occult. If you want to go down this road, open another Forum.

Wow, somebody needs to learn history...sorry to have to kick your ass here:

 One of the greatest illusions held by those rejecting Hitler is that he was a godless heathen.  Few assertions are more at variance with reality and one need only read and quote his writings and speeches to prove as much.  Regarding belief in God he said to the English journalist, Ward Price:


    I believe in God, and I am convinced that he will not desert 67 million Germans who have worked so hard to regain their rightful position in the world.
        HITLER, SPEECHES AND PROCLAMATIONS 1932-45, Vol. 1, by Max Domarus, page 29

        In a speech in Munich on 24 February 1940 he stated:

But there is something else I believe, and that is that there is a God.  This God has given the same right to all nations.  And this God again has blessed our efforts during the past 13 years.
        MY NEW ORDER  by Adolph Hitler, Edited by de Sales, 1941, page 788

        At the celebration of the Gau Party Congress of Mainfranken on 27 June 1937: 

We German National Socialists believe in nothing on this earth--besides our Lord God in heaven--except our German Volk.
        HITLER, [Speeches and Proclamations], by Max Domarus, Vol. 2, page 908

        Near Augsburg on 23 November 1937 Hitler addressed the Churches formally:

 At the bottom of our hearts, we National Socialists are religious.  For the space of many millenniums, a uniform concept of God did not exist. Yet it is the most brilliant and most sublime notion of mankind, that which distinguishes him from most from animals, that he not only views a phenomenon from without, but always poses the question of why and how.
         HITLER, [Speeches and Proclamations], by Max Domarus, Vol. 2, page 980

          He also stated:

          It is impossible to escape the problem of God.  When I have the time, I'll work out the formula to be used on great occasions.  We must have something perfect both in thought and in form.
          HITLER'S TABLE TALK, 1941-1944, Translated by Cameron & Stevens, 2000, page 164

 

         It's a fact that we're feeble creatures, and that a creative force exists.  To seek to deny it is folly.
         HITLER'S TABLE TALK, 1941-1944, Translated by Cameron & Stevens, 2000, page 87

 

      In his speech in the Reichstag on 7 March 1936:


         I believe I can say this openly before my conscience and my God.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 2, Page 1301

 

       Near Augsburg on 23 November 1937 Hitler addressed the Churches:

         This entire world, a world so clear-cut in its external manifestation, is just as unclear to us in its purpose.  And here mankind has bowed down in humility before the conviction that it is confronted by an incredible power, an Omnipotence, which is so incredible and so deep that we men are unable to fathom it.  That is a good thing!  For it can serve to comfort people in bad times; it avoids that superficiality and sense of superiority that misleads man to believe that he--but a tiny bacillus on this earth, in this universe--rules the world, and that he lays down the laws of Nature which he can at best but study.  It is, therefore, our desire that our Volk remains humble and truly believes in a God.  Hence an immeasurably large scope is given for the Churches, and thus they should be tolerant of one another!
         HITLER, [Speeches and Proclamations], by Max Domarus, Vol. 2, page 980

Hitler not only said he believed in a God but specifically rejected atheism.

        In an article published in the Sunday Express 28 September 1930 he said: 
        

It is charged against me that I am against property, that I am an atheist.  Both charges are false.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 93

    An educated man retains the sense of the mysteries of nature and bows before the unknowable.  An educated man, on the other hand, runs the risk of going over to atheism (which is a return to the state of the animal)....
         HITLER'S TABLE TALK, 1941-1944, Translated by Cameron & Stevens, 2000, page 59

 

Not only did he strongly believe in god and reject atheism but his determination to destroy atheism was unmistakable.  In a speech in the Sportpalast in Berlin on 24 October 1933 Hitler said:

          Without pledging ourselves to any particular Confession [Protestantism or Catholicism], we have restored to faith its prerequisites because we were convinced that the people need and require this faith.  We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 378

         We don’t want to educate anyone in atheism.
         HITLER'S TABLE TALK, 1941-1944, Translated by Cameron & Stevens, 2000, page 6

   In a speech to the Nation on 14 October 1933:

         For eight months we have been conducting a fearless campaign against that Communism which is threatening our entire nation, our culture, our art, and our public morals.  We have made an end of denials of the Deity and the crying down of religion.  We must humbly thank God that he has not permitted our fight against distress and unemployment, and for the saving of the German peasantry, to be in vain.
         THE HITLER DECREES, by James Pollock and Harlow Heneman, 1934, Page 80
         HITLER, SPEECHES AND PROCLAMATIONS 1932-45, Vol. 1, by Max Domarus, page 369
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 2, Page 1095

 

 The allegedly atheist Hitler called upon God for support.  In Munich on 1 January 1938 he stated:

         No matter how great the accomplishments of mankind may be, man will never be able to boast of having achieved final victory if Providence does not bless his actions.  May it be our uttermost request that the mercy of the Lord God accompany our German Volk in the coming year on its fateful path.
        HITLER, [Speeches and Proclamations], by Max Domarus, Vol. 2, page 997

 

And he prayed on numerous occasions.  In Berlin on 20 February 1938 Hitler stated:

         In this hour I pray that the Almighty will give His blessing in the years to come to our work and action, to our judgment and to our strength of resolution, that He may guard us from false pride as from cowardly submission, that He will let us find the right way, which He in His Providence has allotted to the German people, and that He give us always the courage to do right and never to waiver or weaken in the face of any force or danger.
         HITLER'S WORDS, by Adolph Hitler, Edited by Gordon Prange, 1944, page 92

 

         In Cologne on 28 March 1936: 

         Once the mercy of God shown upon us, but we were not worthy of His mercy.  Providence withdrew its protection and our people fell, fell as scarcely any other people heretofore.  In this deep misery we again learned to pray....  This people has become better, more respectable, and nobler.  We all perceive it; the mercy of the Lord slowly returns to us again.  And in this hour we sink to our knees and beseech our Almighty God that He may bless us, that He may give us the strength to carry on the struggle for the freedom, the future, the honor, and the peace of our people.  So help us God.
         HITLER'S WORDS, by Adolph Hitler, Edited by Gordon Prange, 1944, page 91
         HITLER, [Speeches and Proclamations], by Max Domarus, Vol. 2, page 802

 

 In a speech at the Harvest Thanksgiving Celebration on the Buckeberg on 7 October 1933: 

         And of our God at this hour we would humbly pray that in the future, too, He would give His blessing upon our labor for our daily bread.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 874

 

         In his speech to members of the Party at the Nuremberg Parteitag on 13 September 1936: 

    Never in these long years have we offered any other prayer but this: Lord, grant to our people peace at home, and grant and preserve to them peace from the foreign foe!  We in our generation have lived through so much fighting that it is natural that we should long for peace.  We wish to work, we wish to mould our Reich, to organize it after our own fashion, not after that of the Bolshevist Jews!
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 207

 

  In a speech at Konigsberg on 4 March 1933: 

         Our prayer is: Lord God, let us never hesitate, let us never play the coward, let us never forget the duty which we have taken upon us.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 116

 

     In Berlin on 30 January 1942: 

         It is this prayer which will be answered: God give us strength that we may maintain our freedom for our people, for our children and for our children's children, not only for us Germans, but also for the other nations of Europe!
         HITLER'S WORDS, by Adolph Hitler, Edited by Gordon Prange, 1944, page 97

 

         In his speech on May Day 1933: 

     ... no, Lord, the German people have become strong again in spirit, strong in will, strong in endurance, strong to bear all sacrifices.
     Lord, we will not let Thee go: bless now our fight for our freedom; the fight we wage for our German people and Fatherland.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 410

 

         In the closure to his speech in the Reichstag on 20 February 1938: 

         In this hour I would ask of the Lord God only this: that, as in the past, so in the years to come He would give His  blessing to our work and our action, to our judgment and our resolution, that He will safeguard us from all false pride and from all cowardly servility, that He may grant to us to find the straight path which His Providence has ordained for the German people, and that He may ever give us the courage to do the right, never to falter, never to yield before any violence, before any danger.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 410
         HITLER, [Speeches and Proclamations], by Max Domarus, Vol. 2, page 1034

 

         In his speech at the Harvest Thanksgiving on 6 October 1935: 

         We wish to continue to do our duty, to go straight ahead, not to look to the right and left as we have done in the past.  We want to march through the distresses of this time, strong and armed, and never play the weakling.  We want to do the right and to dread no one and then we would ask of the Almighty that in the coming year, too, He will bless our work, that He may once more give a rich harvest to our fields and to us all great successes.  And in especial may He preserve to our people a right judgment, may He secure for our people domestic peace, and may He fill us one and all with the wisdom and the wit to do the right that our people may live and that Germany and may never perish.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 2, Page 1716

 

         In his speech at the Harvest Thanksgiving on 6 October 1935: 

      When we go into the last battle we would lift of our gaze to Him who guides all things and, as did a Prussian general before us, we would only say 'Lord God, there is no need for Thee to help us, only do not help our enemies.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 2, Page 1748
         HITLER'S REDEN, 1933, page 95.

 

In a speech at Frankfurt on Main on 16 March 1936:

... You must be anchored in yourself and must set yourself with feet firmly planted on this oscillating world.  Only so can you appeal to your God and pray Him to support and bless your courage, your work, your perseverance, your strength, your resolution, and with all these your claim on life.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 408

 

       On 3 October 1938 in Eger: 

         In this hour we wish to render thanks to the Almighty that He has guarded us on our path in the past, and we would implore Him that in the future, too, He would go with us and prosper our way.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 2, Page 1529

 

Needless to say, those having no belief in a supreme being--atheists--don’t pray or call upon an Almighty Being for sustenance or assistance. 


         Hitler also contended that prayers are answered for those who fight for them as is shown by his comments in a Munich speech on 27 September 1922:

         . . . Necessity teaches us to pray, but it also teaches us to fight.  God gave man prayer, but He refuses to grant the fulfillment of prayer if man does not fight for it.
         HITLER'S WORDS, by Adolph Hitler, Edited by Gordon Prange, 1944, page 76

Assertions such as those uttered by Hitler during a public speech on 8 November 1943 lend credence to his claim of being religious: 

         I, too, am religious; that is, religious deep inside, and I believe that Providence weighs us human beings, and that he who is unable to pass the test of Providence but is destroyed by it has not been destined for greater things.
         HITLER, SPEECHES AND PROCLAMATIONS 1932-45, Vol. 1, by Max Domarus, page 29

 

 The following exchange occurred in a conversation with one of Hitler’s closest confidants, Martin Bormann: 

HITLER:  Mark my words, Bormann, I'm going to become very religious.
    BORMANN: You've always been very religious.
    HITLER:  I'm going to become a religious figure.  Soon I'll be the great chief of the Tartars.  Already  Arabs and Moroccans are mingling my name with their prayers.
     HITLER'S TABLE TALK, 1941-1944, Translated by Cameron & Stevens, 2000, page 203

 In his speech to the Reichstag on 21 May 1935 he said: 

         ... We National Socialists may perhaps not have the same views as our church communities in respect to this or that question of organization.  But we never want to see a lack of religion and faith and do not want our churches turned into clubrooms and cinemas.
 Bolshevism teaches godlessness and acts accordingly.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 670

 

      With Hitler, as with George Bush, faith is a key component of his life and the Fuhrer affirmed his reliance upon same by saying in his closing speech at the Parteitag in Nuremberg in September 1936: 

         . . .  Woe to him who has not faith: he sins against the meaning of the whole of life....  It was the miracle of faith which saved Germany.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 406

 

         Hitler went even further than Bush dares to venture at this time by openly contending faith should be imposed on others by force if necessary: 

         Those who don't believe should, it seems, have faith imposed on them by force.
         HITLER'S TABLE TALK, 1941-1944, Translated by Cameron & Stevens, 2000, page 342

 

What an imposition of this kind would portend for the US is distressful to say the least. 


         As far as Hitler is concerned anything bringing people to god is good and all to the contrary is wrong, and he makes no effort to hide this attitude:

Let's not worry about letting young people have these festivals.  On the contrary!  Everything is good that brings them closer to the godhead, and everything is wrong that comes between them and the godhead, even if it is a Catholic priest.
         HITLER--MEMOIRS OF A CONFIDANT, by Otto Wegener, 1985, page 278

         In Munich on 8 May 1929 Hitler showed he felt people could be saved by virtually any religion when he said:
         I represent the view that everyone should achieve salvation according to his own religion.
         HITLER'S WORDS, by Adolph Hitler, Edited by Gordon Prange, 1944, page 280

         He doesn’t seem to care what religion people adopt as long as they belong to one or the other.  To that extent he is more tolerant than Bush and his fundamentalist compatriots who contend there is only one correct path to salvation.
         Hitler often showed he believed, like Bush, that people were a God’s creation.
        In Berlin on 1 May 1935 he stated:
         As you stand here gathered together before me, may you one and all not forget what life has made out of you as individuals; may you remember that in spite of all these barriers you are members of one people and that you are so not by human will but by God's will.  It was He who made us members of this nation, He who gave us our mother tongue, He who implanted in us that being with which we are filled, which we must obey if we are to be more on earth than mere worthless chaff.
         HITLER'S WORDS, by Adolph Hitler, Edited by Gordon Prange, 1944, page 90

         Because God's will once gave men their form, their being, and their faculties.  Who destroys His work thereby declares war on the creation of the Lord, the divine will.
         MEIN KAMPF, Adolph Hitler, New York, Reynal & Hitchcock, 1939, page 827

         In Munich on 25 October 1930:
         When we come forth today as Germans and try to guard against infection by another people, then we attempt to put back into the hand of the all-powerful Creator that which He has given us.
     His will and His Providence let us become what we are.  He gave us the blood that we possess; He gave us our external, I might almost say purely human appearance; He placed our souls in us and He gave us the value which is ours and also the substance of life.  It would be an act of infidelity toward the Creator if we did not endeavor to give the same being back to Him in the same form in which He gave it to us.  I consider it a sin to corrupt or to debase this our being, to infect it with foreign characteristics, and thus not to preserve the image of God as He placed it in our inner nature.
         HITLER'S WORDS, by Adolph Hitler, Edited by Gordon Prange, 1944, page 87

         If those words do not expose someone ideologically in league with the religious views of Bush what does.
 Hitler went so far as to equate the people’s voice with God’s voice when he said in Munich on 15 March 1936:
         Only the Almighty has the right to decide on what is just in what is not, and God's voice is the people's voice, and you, my German compatriots, are therefore the only ones who have the right to judge my actions.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 2, Page 1309

         And he reiterated those words the following day in Frankfurt:
         I will accept your decision as the people's voice which is the voice of God.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 2, Page 1311

         Like religious fundamentalists in general and Bush in particular Hitler links salvation with understanding God and accepting the laws of nature:
         The essential thing, really, is that man should know that salvation consists in the effort that each person makes to understand Providence and accept the laws of nature.
         HITLER'S TABLE TALK, 1941-1944, Translated by Cameron & Stevens, 2000, page 124

         When Hitler speaks as follows, it is readily apparent that his anti-evolutionary views coalesce with those of Bush and other fundamentalists:
         I cannot believe that the various ages in the history of the globe lasted as long as the experts would have us believe.  In any case, they have no proofs to offer of the correctness of their hypotheses.
         HITLER'S TABLE TALK, 1941-1944, Translated by Cameron & Stevens, 2000, page 707

         In the following comment Hitler describes the clash in his mind between evolution and creation and judging by the prior comment one can easily see which side he chose to accept:
         The present system of teaching in schools permits the following absurdity: at 10 a.m. the pupils attend a lesson in the catechism, at which the creation of the world is presented to them in accordance with the teachings of the Bible; and at 11 a.m. they attend a lesson in natural science, at which they are taught the theory of evolution.  Yet the two doctrines are in complete contradiction.  As a child, I suffered from this contradiction, and ran my head against a wall.  Often I complained to one or another of my teachers against what I had been taught an hour before--and I remember that I drove them to despair.
         HITLER'S TABLE TALK, 1941-1944, Translated by Cameron & Stevens, 2000, page 83

         Judging from the following comment it would appear Hitler feels the creation account is valid because of its acceptance by all human traditions:
         In all the human traditions, whether oral or written, one finds mention of a huge cosmic disaster.  What the Bible tells on the subject is not peculiar to the Jews, but was certainly borrowed by them from the Babylonians and the Assyrians.
         HITLER'S TABLE TALK, 1941-1944, Translated by Cameron & Stevens, 2000, page 249

         Hitler not only firmly believed in God but according to some of his assertions strongly believed he was chosen by God to rule.  He stated in a Munich speech on 4 September 1932:
         I also have the conviction and the certain feeling that nothing can happen to me, for I know that Providence has chosen me to fulfill my task.
         HITLER, SPEECHES AND PROCLAMATIONS 1932-45, Vol. 1, by Max Domarus, page 165

         In Berlin on 24 March 1936:
         I would like to thank Providence and the Almighty for choosing me of all people to be allowed to wage this battle for Germany.
         HITLER, [Speeches and Proclamations], by Max Domarus, Vol. 2, page 797

         In a speech to some political leaders at the Nuremberg Parteitag on 7 September 1934:
         And it was no earthly superior who gave us that command; that was given to us by the God Who created our people and Who cannot will that His work should go to ruin only because a single generation had grown feeble.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 662

         And in a Reichstag speech on 21 May 1935:
         But the more difficult the decisions, so much the more I as a German should like to make sure that my actions are completely uninfluenced by instincts of weakness or fear and to bring them into harmony with my conscience towards my God and the nation which He permits me to serve.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 457

         Besides contending God chose him to rule, he attributed his accomplishments to God’s help.  In effect, mankind is supposed to believe God was on the side of him and Germany.  That should sound familiar to millions of present-day Americans listening to Bushites express their views, especially when the latter are speaking in uniform before congregations.
        In Regensburg on 6 June 1937 Hitler stated:
         We, therefore, go our way into the future with the deepest belief in God.  Would all we have achieved been possible had Providence not helped us?  I know that the fruits of human labor are hard-won and transitory if they are not blessed by the Omnipotent.  Work such as ours which has received the blessings of the Omnipotent can never again be undone by mere mortals.
         HITLER, [Speeches and Proclamations], by Max Domarus, Vol. 2, page 903

         On 6 April 1938 in Salzburg:
 We all must be grateful to Providence and to our Lord God.  He has granted to us success in that for which formerly generations fought and for which countless numbers of the best Germans had to sacrifice their lives.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 2, Page 1455

         Before the Reichstag on 30 January 1937:
         When I look back upon the great work of the four years lying behind us, you will understand that my initial feeling can be none other than that of gratitude to our Almighty God who allowed us to accomplish this work.
 He blessed our work and enabled our Volk to stride unscathed and confident through all the perils lining its path.
         HITLER, [Speeches and Proclamations], by Max Domarus, Vol. 2, page 873
         HITLER'S WORDS, by Adolph Hitler, Edited by Gordon Prange, 1944, page 92

         In Saarbruecken on 1 March 1935:
         I know, too, that our goal is today far from being attained.  But we strive toward it with burning hearts, and Heaven and Providence have blessed our efforts....
     Fifteen years of struggle.  And when today I here consider the result, then I must thank God above; he has blessed our efforts time and again.  Nor was our struggle in vain.  Fifteen years of battle for a Reich, and today in the name of this people and in the name of this Reich I can greet you in the German homeland.
         HITLER'S WORDS, by Adolph Hitler, Edited by Gordon Prange, 1944, page 89

         In Berlin on May Day, 1934:
         We would not forget Him Who a whole year through has granted such success to our work, and we would pray Him that in the time to come, too, He would not withhold His blessing from our people.  Above all may Providence permit our dearest hope to come to its fulfillment....
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 2, Page 1176

         At Rosenheim on 11 August 1935:
         Fifteen years ago I had nothing save my faith and my will.  Today the Movement is Germany, today this Movement has won the German nation and formed the Reich.  Would that have been possible without the blessing of the Almighty?  Or do they who ruined Germany wish to maintain that they have had God's blessing?  What we are we are, not against but with the will of Providence.  And so long as we are loyal, honest, and ready to fight, so long as we believe in our great work and do not capitulate, we shall also in the future have the blessing of Providence. . . .
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 404

         In his proclamation to the German People on 1 January 1939:
         The National Socialist Movement has wrought this miracle.  If Almighty God granted success to this work, then the Party was His instrument.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 406

         In his New Year Proclamation of 1938:
         Yet however great human achievement may be, it will never be able to pride itself upon final success unless Providence blesses its action.  Our deepest prayer is that in the coming year, as in the past, the favor of Almighty God may accompany our German people upon the path of its destiny.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 2, Page 1373

         In a speech to the "Old Guard" of the Party in Munich on 19 March 1934:
         ... We have experienced a miracle, something unique, something the like of which there has hardly been in the history of the world.  God first allowed our people to be victorious for 4 and a half years, then He abased us, laid upon us a period of shamelessness, but now after a struggle of 14 years he has permitted us to bring that period to a close.  It is a miracle which has been wrought upon the German people, and we would not fall into the fault which possessed the German people at the end of the war-years: we would not be ungrateful.  What has come to pass during the last year is so unheard of that it must constrain us to profound humility.  It shows that the Almighty has not deserted our people, that He received it into favor at the moment when it rediscovered itself.  And that our people shall never again lose itself, that must be our vow so long as we shall live and so long as the Lord gives us the strength to carry on the fight.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 405

         And at the annual harvest celebration on the Buckeberg, on 30 September 1934:
         When folk have set before them a true purpose and then pursue it unmoved with bravery and courage, when they withstand with a strong heart every trial which Heaven sends upon them, then one day at the last almighty Providence will yet grant them the fruits of their struggle and of their sacrifices.  For God has never abandoned any man upon this earth unless he has first abandoned himself.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 906

         Based upon these comments, it is not hard to discern why Hitler felt the German people were God’s agent and said:
         Germany, the German Volk!  And this Volk will be the Sword of God!
         HITLER--MEMOIRS OF A CONFIDANT, by Otto Wegener, 1985, page 215

         But although he staunchly believed God was in the corner occupied by him and the German people, there was no doubt in his mind that God’s support could not substitute for hard work and extended labor.  On many occasions he emphasized the importance of work and sacrifice.  The “bring yourself up by your own bootstraps” cry so prominent in Rightist circles clearly emerges in such comments as:
         You [blue-collar workers] represent the most noble of slogans known to us: "God helps those who help themselves!"
         HITLER, [Speeches and Proclamations], by Max Domarus, Vol. 2, page 1147

         In Munich on 24 February 1941:
         The Lord helps those who help themselves....  That is not only a very pious phrase, but a very just one.
         HITLER'S WORDS, by Adolph Hitler, Edited by Gordon Prange, 1944, page 96

         In Hamburg on 20 March 1936:
         Hence today, my German volk, I call upon you: stand behind me with your faith!  Be the source of my power and my faith. Do not forget: he who does not abandon his principles in this world will not be abandoned by the Almighty either!  The Almighty will always help those who help themselves; He will always show them the way to their rights, their freedom and thus to their future.  And this is the reason why you, German Volk, are going to the polls on March 29.
         HITLER, [Speeches and Proclamations], by Max Domarus, Vol. 2, page 794

         In a speech on 5 July 1944:
         I may not be a light of the church, a pulpiteer, but deep down I am a pious man, and believe that whoever fights bravely in defense of the natural laws framed by God and never capitulates will never be deserted by the Lawgiver, but will, in the end, receive the blessings of Providence.
         HITLER'S LETTERS AND NOTES, by Werner Maser, (1973), page 208

         In a March 1933 speech:
         The world will not help, the people must help itself.  Its own strength is the source of life.  That strength the Almighty has given us to use: that in it and through it we may wage the battle of our life....  The others in past years have not had the blessing of the Almighty--of Him Who in the last resort, whatever man may do, holds in His hands the final decision.  Lord God, let us never hesitate or play the coward, let us never forget the duty which we have taken upon us.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 409

         In Nuremberg on 16 September 1935:
         God continues to bestow His Grace only on him who continues to merit it.  But whoever speaks and acts in the name of a people, which is a part of God's handiwork, will continue to discharge his mandate only so long as he does not sin against the existence or future of the part of God's creation that has been entrusted to his care....
         HITLER'S WORDS, by Adolph Hitler, Edited by Gordon Prange, 1944, page 90

         At the annual harvest celebration on the Buckeberg in October 1936:
         If at any time in Germany the harvest sinks only by 20 percent, then that is for our people a catastrophe.  Twenty percent less grain would for our German food supply have terrible, hardly imaginable, consequences.  What men can do to avoid such a catastrophe that we do in Germany.  But we feel all the more deeply our duty every year to render thanks to the Power on which depends in the last resort this final 20 percent of our harvest.  We know that Eternal Providence must first give its gracious consent to all that human industry and human work can achieve.  And it is for this reason that we unite here on this day to render thanks to the Almighty that He has not allowed the work of a whole year to be spent in vain, but that from the work of this year once more our people's daily bread is secured for the coming year.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 932

         At the celebration of the Gau Party Congress of Mainfranken on 27 June 1937:
         ... it is my conviction that the human beings God created also wish to lead their lives modeled after the will of the Almighty.
         God did not create the peoples so that they might deliver themselves up to foolishness and be pulped soft and ruined by it, but that they might preserve themselves as He created them!  Because we support their preservation in their original, God-given form, we believe our actions correspond to the will of the Almighty.
         As weak as the individual may ultimately be in his character and actions as a whole, when compared to Almighty Providence and its will, he becomes just as infinitely strong the instant he acts in accordance with this Providence.... And when I look back on the five years behind us, I cannot help but say: this has not been the work of man alone.  Had Providence not guided us, I surely would often have been unable to follow these dizzying paths.  That is something our critics above all should know.  At the bottom of our hearts, we National Socialists are devout!  We have no choice: no one can make national or world history if his deeds and abilities are not blessed by Providence.
         HITLER, [Speeches and Proclamations], by Max Domarus, Vol. 2, page 908

         In Munich on 24 February 1940:
         I, however, believe that we are here dealing with divine justice.... Providence, our God, as I prefer to say, will not abandon such a nation.
         This God of whom I speak will not abandon us.  He will guide us further along the path we have set our foot upon, and in this feeling of righteousness and justice we shall continue our efforts as we have begun them, certain that victory will be ours, because it is so ordained.
         MY NEW ORDER  by Adolph Hitler, Edited by de Sales, 1941, page 788

         And feeling himself fulfilling a divine calling Hitler stated on various occasions:
         I believe that it was also God's will that from here [Austria] a boy was to be sent into the Reich, allowed to mature, and elevated to become the nation's Fuhrer.
         I follow the path assigned to me by Providence with the instinctive sureness of a sleepwalker.
         When I look back on the five years behind us, I cannot help but say: this has not been the work of man alone.  Had province not guided us, I surely would often have been unable to follow these dizzying paths.
         The Almighty will always help those who help themselves.
        God formed this Volk, and it has become what it should according to God's will, and according to our will, it shall remain, nevermore to fade!
         Work such as ours which has received the blessings of the Omnipotent can never again be undone by mere mortals.
         God helped us.
         Where will and faith so fervently join forces, Heaven cannot withhold its approval.
         HITLER, SPEECHES AND PROCLAMATIONS 1932-45, Vol. 1, by Max Domarus, page 30

         Hitler felt the judging of whether or not a people’s labor and deeds are good or bad is a matter for God to determine and not man and uttered words to this effect on 1 April 1939 in front of the Rathaus in Wilhelmshafen:
         ... all that we can say is: the judgment whether a people is virtuous or not--that a mere man can hardly pronounce--that must be left to the good God.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 2, Page 1594

         He also believed, as do the Bushites, that God punishes, tests, and favors believers according to their beliefs, behavior, and labor and conveyed that message at the Harvest Thanksgiving Festival on the Buckeberg on 3 October 1937:
         ... in the future as in the past the Lord God will always help us.  In the long run He never leaves a decent folk in the lurch.  Often He may test them, He may send trials upon them, but in the long run He always lets His sun shine upon them once more and at the end He gives them His blessing.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 407

         In his closing speech at the Nuremberg Parteitag of 1937:
         Often it is through a chastisement that the deepest love of Providence towards its creatures is displayed.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 690

         On 27 February 1932 in the Berlin Sportpalast:
         I believe in Divine Justice.  I believe that it has defeated Germany because we had become faithless, and I believe that it will help us because we now once again profess our faith.
     I believe that the long arm of the Almighty will withdraw from those who are seeking merely alien shelter.
         HITLER, SPEECHES AND PROCLAMATIONS 1932-45, Vol. 1, by Max Domarus, page 120

         In Munich on 2 April 1927:
         We are not a Party of lazy, narrow-minded townsmen; we are not a Movement of worthless brothers, who are content to discuss the topics of the day, who as men say to their wives: My dear wife, the Lord has given, the Lord has taken away, praise be the will of the Lord; if it pleases Him, He will make us free again.  No!  The Lord gave us His blessing because we deserved it; the Lord revoked His blessing because we were not worthy of it; the Lord will give us His blessing again when He sees that He has a rejuvenated people before Him.
         HITLER'S WORDS, by Adolph Hitler, Edited by Gordon Prange, 1944, page 87

         And in Karlsruhe on 12 March 1936:
         And should unnecessary sorrow or suffering ever come to my people because of my actions, then I beseech the Almighty God to punish me.
         HITLER'S WORDS, by Adolph Hitler, Edited by Gordon Prange, 1944, page 110

         Through numerous comments Hitler, like Bush, made no secret of his firm adherence to Christianity. At Hamburg on 17 August 1934 he stated:
         The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 385

         In the Party Program formulated in Munich on 24 February 1920:
         The party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not bind itself in the matter of creed to any particular confession.  It combats the Jewish-materialist spirit within and without us,...
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 107
         THE HITLER DECREES, by James Pollock and Harlow Heneman, 1934, Page 3

         After all, I am a Christian, am I not?
         I AM ADOLPH HITLER, by Adolph Hitler, Ed. by Werner/Lotte Pelz, 1971, Page 115

         I'm a Catholic.  Certainly that was fated from the beginning, for only a Catholic knows the weaknesses of the Church.
         THE VOICE OF DESTRUCTION, by Hermann Rauschnigg, 1940, page 52

         [Footnote]: On 4 July 1933 the Dean of Chichester had an interview with Hitler in the course of which Hitler said:
         I am a Catholic, I have no place in the Protestant church.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 400

         In a speech to the Germans of the Saar at Koblenz on 26 August 1934:
         National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity.  And we have no other desire than to be true to that position.  I know that there are thousands and tens of thousands of priests who are not merely reconciled to the State of today but who gladly give to the State their cooperation, and I am convinced that this cooperation will grow ever closer and more intimate.  For their interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of today, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against an atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life, for the conquest of hatred and disunion between the classes, for the conquest of civil war and unrest, of strife and discord.  These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles!  But I believe that if we should fail to follow these principles, then we should not be able to point to our successes, for the result of our political battle is surely not unblest by God.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 386
 
 

         And in the Sportpalast in Berlin on 24 October 1933:
         He [Bishop Mueller] said he knew that the Chancellor [Hitler] himself was very anxious that the people should not turn National Socialism into a substitute for Christianity, and that he desired especially to have the youth rightly guided in this direction.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 379

         Hitler not only firmly believed in Christianity but, like Bush, considered Christian principles to be the basis of morality.
         From the Proclamation by the Government to the German Nation on 1 February 1933:
         The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and cooperation.  It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built.  It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life....
         MY NEW ORDER by Hitler, Edited by Raoul de Roussy de Sales, 1941, Page 144

         In a statement on the Enabling Act to the Reichstag on 23 March 1933:
         In the same way, the Government of the Reich, who regards Christianity as the unshakable foundation of the morals and the moral code of the nation, attach the greatest value to friendly relations with the Holy See, and are endeavoring to develop them.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 2, Page 1018
         ADOLPH HITLER QUOTATIONS, by Karl Hammer,1990, Page 58
         HITLER, SPEECHES AND PROCLAMATIONS 1932-45, Vol. 1, by Max Domarus, page 283

         In his closing speech to the Nuremberg Parteitag of 1935:
         ... And the two factors which made this development possible were the model set by the States of the ancient world and the Christian religion.  Without these, it is impossible to conceive what would have been the fate of Europe and of the rest of the world, so far as the white race is in question;...
 Christianity provided the religious and Weltanschaulich basis on which a German state could be raised despite the absence of any tribal unity.  Only on this platform of religion and State in the course of centuries could the exclusive peculiarities of the tribes be smoothed down and overcome in favor of that common blood-descent and therefore inner community out of which a nation could be born.  The men who carried out this historic process acted under a commission given to them by Providence, who wished that we Germans should become a people.
         In this process Christianity provided the common store of religious and moral ideas which formed the unity in which German tribes could unite. And what Christianity destroyed had to fall if this unity were to be realized.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 439

         And finally he stated in his most infamous writing:
         If one were to take from present mankind its principles based on religion and faith, which in their practical effectiveness are ethical and moral, by eliminating this religious education and without replacing it by an equivalent, one would be confronted with a result amounting to a serious undermining of the foundations of their existence.  Therefore one may well determine that man lives not only in order to serve higher ideals, but that these higher ideals, inversely, give also the presumption for his existence as man.  Thus the circle was closed.
         MEIN KAMPF, Adolph Hitler, New York, Reynal & Hitchcock, 1939, page 574

         As with Bush, religious Hitler believed life is a fight between good and evil:
         Two worlds face one another--the men of God and the men of Satan!
         THE VOICE OF DESTRUCTION, by Hermann Rauschnigg, 1940, page 241

         And, like a recent Alabama judge determined to oppose the First Amendment to the US Constitution, he was convinced the Ten Commandments lie at the foundation of all morality:
         The Ten Commandments are a code of living to which there's no refutation.  These precepts correspond to irrefragable needs of the human soul; they're inspired by the best religious spirit, and the Churches here support themselves on a solid foundation.
         HITLER'S TABLE TALK, 1941-1944, Translated by Cameron & Stevens, 2000, page 85

         Being a dedicated Christian, it comes as no surprise to anyone that Hitler accepted Jesus Christ as his Savior and viewed him as a fighter for the downtrodden.
        He made that abundantly clear in a speech in Munich on 12 April 1922:
         My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who, once lonely with only a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were, and called me to fight them, and who, so help me, was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. With boundless love, as a Christian and as a man, I read the passage which relates how the Lord finally gathered His strength and made use of the whip in order to drive the usurers, the vipers, and cheats from the temple.  Today 2,000 years later, I recognize with deep emotion Christ's tremendous fight for this world against the Jewish poison.  I recognize it most profoundly by the fact that He had to shed His blood on the cross for his fight.  As a Christian it is not my duty to permit myself to be cheated but it is my duty to be a champion of truth and of right.
         As man it is my duty to see to it that humanity will not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did an old civilization about 2,000 years ago, a civilization which was also driven to destruction by the Jewish people....
 As a Christian I owe something to my own people.  I see how this people is working and working, laboring and exerting itself, and still at the end of the week it has nothing but misery and poverty to show for it.  One perhaps does not realize it in the homes of the nobility.  But when I go out in the mornings and see those people in the breadlines and look into their drawn faces, then I become convinced that I am a veritable devil and not a Christian if I do not feel compassion and do not wage war, as our Lord did 2,000 years ago, against those who are pillaging and exploiting this poor people (the German people--Ed.)....
         Two thousand years ago a man was likewise denounced by this particular race which today is denouncing and blaspheming everywhere.... That man was dragged into court and they said then: He is arousing the people! So he also was "agitating." And against whom? Against "God," they cried. Yes indeed he was agitating against the "god” of the Jews, for that "god" is money.
         HITLER’S WORDS, by Adolph Hitler, 1944, Edited by Gordon  Prange, pages 71-72
         MY NEW ORDER  by Adolph Hitler, Edited by de Sales, 1941, page 26

         And being consumed by this mentality one can readily understand why Hitler, like Bush, believed the teachings of Jesus should be disseminated to everyone especially the youth:
         We must turn all the sentiments of the Volk, all its thinking, acting, even its beliefs, away from the anti-Christian, smug individualism of the past, from the egotism and stupid Phariseeism of personal arrogance, and we must educate the youth in particular in the spirit of those of Christ's words that we must interpret anew: love one another; be considerate of your fellow man; remember that each one of you is not alone a creature of God, but that you are all brothers!  This youth will, with loathing and contempt, abandon those hypocrites who have Christ on their lips but the devil in their hearts,...
         HITLER--MEMOIRS OF A CONFIDANT, by Otto Wegener, 1985, page 140

         Mary and Mary Magdalene stood at the empty tomb.  For they were seeking the dead man!  But we intend to raise the treasures of the living Christ!
         Herein lies the essential element of our mission: we must bring back to the German Volk the recognition of those teachings!
         HITLER--MEMOIRS OF A CONFIDANT, by Otto Wegener, 1985, page 140

         And on 20 April 1923:
         We want to prevent our Germany from suffering, as Another did, the death upon the Cross.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 60

         Hitler even extols the followers of Christ who endured persecution for their beliefs:
         Immediately after the death of Christ, whom the reactionaries crucified, they set about exterminating, at least imprisoning and depriving of their rights, all those who had accepted Christ before his death.  Christ's body was removed from the tomb, to keep it from becoming an object of veneration and a tangible relic of the great new founder of a religion!  In all the larger municipalities, commissions were established, special courts, to pass judgment on Christ's followers.  The Gospels report in graphic detail the expropriations, forced labor, two years or more of prison, and even death penalties that were inflicted in order to exterminate the plague of true Christianity.  The Roman occupation forces aided in this effort.  And a major re-education program was initiated to reconvert--or rather, force to reconvert--those who might have gravitated to Christ or were vacillating.
         HITLER--MEMOIRS OF A CONFIDANT, by Otto Wegener, 1985, page 316

         The writings of Hitler are occasionally composed in such a manner as to make it difficult to determine if he is a politician pontificating on religion or a minister preaching on politics.  With so much of his ideology resting upon religion and his pronounced proclivity to seek succor from religion, one can easily understand why Hitler, like Bush, spared no effort to involve government with religion and to render assistance to the latter by means of the former.  As far as Hitler was concerned, in many ways government was little more than an adjunct to religion.  His desire that government and religion operate in unison was evident in a speech on 23 March 1933 before the Reichstag:
         It will be the Government's care to maintain honest cooperation between Church and State; the struggle against materialistic views and for a real national community is just as much in the interest of the German nation as in that of the welfare of our Christian faith.
         THE HITLER DECREES, by James Pollock and Harlow Heneman, 1934, Page 66
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 371

         Hitler felt that one of the government’s obligations was to protect religion and stated as much on 22 July 1933 when he said on the wireless:
         National socialism has always affirmed that it is determined to take the Christian Churches under the protection of the State.  For their part the Churches cannot, for a second, doubt that they need the protection of the State, and that only through the State can they be enabled to fill their religious mission.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 375

         But on one point it is well that there should be no uncertainty: the German priest as a servant of God we shall protect,...
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Pages 397-401

         From Hitler’s vantage point, government was not only bound to protect religion but help it grow and expand.  In a speech to the Reichstag on 30 January 1934 he stated:
         The State has dealt no less radically with the two Christian confessions [Protestantism and Catholicism].  Filled by the desire to secure for the German Volk the great religious, moral, and ethical values anchored in the two Christian confessions, we have eliminated the political organizations while, at the same time, reinforcing the religious institutions.
         HITLER, SPEECHES AND PROCLAMATIONS 1932-45, Vol. 1, by Max Domarus, page 419

         And in a speech delivered at Stuttgart on 15 February 1933 he professed the desire of the National Socialist Government to:
         ...fill our whole culture once more with a Christian spirit, and that not only in politics.  We want to burn out the harmful features in our theater and our literature.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 370

         In order to achieve these goals Hitler sought to bestow upon Christian denominations that which they needed more than anything else to expand their influence and control, namely, financial support.  Hitler’s faith-based initiatives preceded those of Bush by decades and went even further by employing programs Bush would no doubt envy and love to inaugurate.
         In a speech to the Reichstag on 30 January 1939 Hitler said:
         Amongst the accusations which are directed against Germany in the so-called democracies is the charge that the National Socialist State is hostile to religion.  In answer to that charge I should like to make before the German people the following solemn declaration:
         1.  No one in Germany has in the past been persecuted because of his religious views, nor will anyone in the future be so persecuted.
         2.  The National Socialist State since 30 January 1933 from public monies derived from taxation through the organs of the State has placed at the disposal of both Churches [Protestant and Catholic] the following sums:
 Fiscal year 1933--130 million Reichsmark
 Fiscal year 1934--170 million Reichsmark
 Fiscal year 1935--250 million Reichsmark
 Fiscal year 1936--320 million Reichsmark
 Fiscal year 1937--400 million Reichsmark
 Fiscal year 1938--500 million Reichsmark
         In addition to this there has been paid over some 85 million Reichsmark each year from contributions of the separate States, and some 7 million Reichsmark from contributions of the parishes and parish-associations.
 Apart from this the churches are the greatest landed proprietors after the App.  The value of their property in land and forests represents more than some 10 millions of Reichsmark, while the annual income from this landed property is to be estimated as over 300 million Reichsmark.  To this must be added countless gifts, testamentary dispositions, above all the sums arising from collections in the churches.  Further, the Church in the National Socialist State is in many ways favored in regard to taxation, and for gifts, legacies, etc., it enjoys immunity from taxation.
         It is therefore, to put it mildly -- effrontery when especially foreign politicians make bold to speak of hostility to religion in the Third Reich.  But if it be true that the German Churches regard this position as intolerable, then the National Socialist State is at anytime ready to undertake a clear separation between Church and State as is already the case in France, America, and other countries.  [Notice that there was no separation between church and state in Nazi Germany]  I would allow myself only one question: what contributions during the same period have France, England, or the United States made through the State from the public funds?
         3.  The National Socialist State has not closed a church, nor has it prevented the holding of a religious service, nor has it ever exercised any influence upon the form of a religious service.  It has not exercised any pressure upon the doctrine nor on the profession of faith of any of the Confessions.  In the National Socialist State anyone is free to seek his blessedness after his own fashion.
         4.  The National Socialist State is neither prudish nor mendacious.  But there are definite moral principles which must be maintained in the interest of the biological health of the nation; violations of these principles we will not permit.  Pederasty or offenses against children will be punished by the law and this State against whoever commits these crimes.  Five years ago when leaders of the National Socialist Party were guilty of these crimes, they were shot.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 397-399

         With a tenth part of our budget for religion, we would thus have a Church devoted to the State and of unshakable loyalty.  We must have done with these out-of-date forms.  The little sects, which receive only a few hundred thousand marks, are devoted to us body and soul.
         HITLER'S TABLE TALK, 1941-1944, Translated by Cameron & Stevens, 2000, page 306

         In another revelation of his intentions to support religion financially Hitler stated:
         On reflection, it seems to be that an annual grant of 50 millions should be enough for the Catholic Church.  It would be paid directly to the princes of the Church, who would be responsible for the sharing out.  Thus we could have the "official" guarantee (since it would be a Church matter) of a "just" distribution of the money....
         HITLER'S TABLE TALK, 1941-1944, Translated by Cameron & Stevens, 2000, page 410

         And he also said:
         You can bet anything, if one relies on historical precedents, that the princes of the church would lick my boots for the value of the money, the more so if they could do what they liked with it.  Therefore, if it's possible to buy the high dignitaries of the Church with money, let's do it!  And if one of them wanted to enjoy his life, and for this purpose put his hand into the till, for the love of Heaven let him be left in peace!
         HITLER'S TABLE TALK, 1941-1944, Translated by Cameron & Stevens, 2000, page 411

         Bishop Mueller said  of Hitler:
         “Hitler feels the office of the Chancellor of the Reich has been directed to the conservation of the church life of the people.  He has given enough proof of that.  His only wish is that a Christian education may be transmitted to the people.”
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 382

 The Fuhrer believed religious views should be protected no matter how superstitious which would presumably include beliefs inimical to the maintenance of life such as those generated by Mark 16 of Scripture:
         I envisage the future, therefore, as follows: First of all, to each man his private creed.  Superstition shall not lose its rights.
         HITLER'S TABLE TALK, 1941-1944, Translated by Cameron & Stevens, 2000, page 62

         He not only promoted the dissemination of religion and denounced opposition to its extension but was incensed when religious figures did not realize they needed Nazism for protection, especially against the advance of Soviet Marxism or Bolshevism.
        On 22 July 1933 he said on the wireless:
         Only a fool can imagine that, for example, the victory of Bolshevism could be irrelevant for the Catholic or the Evangelical Church [Protestant churches] and that therefore it would not disturb or even prevent the former activities of bishops or superintendents.  The assertion that such dangers could be overcome through the action of the Churches alone is untenable; it is contradicted by the facts.  Neither the Catholic Church nor the Evangelical, nor the Russian-Uniate church has been able or would be able to stay the advance of Bolshevism.  Wherever there has not been created a concrete 'volkic'-political defense [such as Nazism] to counter that advance there the victory of Communism is already won, or at least the battle is still undecided.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 375

         And because Nazism served and protected the confessions vigorously Hitler expected the latter to support Nazism fully.
        In a speech to the Reichstag on 30 January 1934 he stated:
         This year the National Socialist State has clearly demonstrated its high regard for the strength of the Christian faiths, and hence it expects the same high regard on the part of the confessions for the strength of the National Socialist State.
         HITLER, SPEECHES AND PROCLAMATIONS 1932-45, Vol. 1, by Max Domarus, page 419

         In light of all the above, the anti-religious, anti-god, anti-Christian portrayal many have been led to believe applies to Hitler can clearly be seen as a delusion, a fantasy fostered primarily by those seeking to put distance, especially in the realm of politics, between their views and those of the Fuhrer.
         The issue now becomes one of accounting for the religious persecution that did occur in Nazi Germany for most assuredly some religious figures paid dearly.  How can one account for what appears to be an inconsistency.  The answer lies in the nature of those persecuted, for most assuredly there were vast differences in the philosophies of various religious figures and movements.  It was not fundamentalists and other right-wing religious figures analogous to America’s Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker, Oral Roberts, Cardinal Spellman, and Billy Graham who were persecuted in Germany.  By no means.  It was those ideologically aligned to such individuals as Father Groppi, Martin Luther King Jr., William Sloan Coffin Jr., the Berrigan Brothers, Jessie Jackson, Archbishop Oscar Romero, Latin American Catholic priests expounding Liberation Theology, and others on the liberal or left wing of the political/religious spectrum.  For them Nazism was the nearest equivalent to perdition.
 As far as Hitler and other Nazis were concerned the only place in which the clergy should operate was the church and the pulpit.  They ordered the clergy to stay out of politics entirely and both warned and threatened all those who failed to pay heed.  In words of the vernacular, as long as religious figures kept their noses out of politics they had nothing to fear.  The following comments by Hitler illuminate this attitude all too clearly.
         Near Augsburg on 23 November 1937 Hitler addressed the Churches formally and stated:
         We are giving you [the Churches] unconditional freedom in your teachings and in your views on what God is.  For we are well aware that we ourselves know nothing of these things.
         Yet let one thing be quite clear: the Churches may determine the fate of the German being in the next world, but in this world the German nation, by way of its leaders, is determining the fate of the German being.  Only if there is such a clear and clean-cut division can life he made bearable in a time of transition.
         HITLER, [Speeches and Proclamations], by Max Domarus, Vol. 2, page 980

         In a speech to the Party officials of Saxony at Leipzig on 16 July 1933:
         Through the Concordat with the Catholic Church the participation of clergy in the political life of the parties has been brought to an end.  We will strengthen religion, the churches shall have their freedom: the politics are our task.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 637
         HITLER, SPEECHES AND PROCLAMATIONS 1932-45, Vol. 1, by Max Domarus, page 347

         In Berlin on 1 May 1937:
         This also applies to all the Churches.  As long as they concern themselves with their religious problems, the State will not concern itself with them.  If they attempt, however, to presume by virtue of any actions, letters, encyclicals, etc. to claim rights which accrue solely to the State, we will force them back into their right and proper spiritual-pastoral activities.  Nor is it acceptable to criticize the morality of a state from that quarter when they have more than enough reason to call their own morality into question.
         HITLER, [Speeches and Proclamations], by Max Domarus, Vol. 2, page 892

         The last sentence is rather illuminating in that it suggests the Germany of that era had a significant amount of clerical immorality not unlike that recently demonstrated in the US by Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker, and many Catholic priests.
         An interesting sideline comment that has implications for today with reference to Catholic priests is:
          The idea of nakedness torments only the priests, for the education they undergo makes them perverts.
         HITLER'S TABLE TALK, 1941-1944, Translated by Cameron & Stevens, 2000, page 320

         Hitler appears to be saying the clergy has no right to criticize the political leaders in light of its own behavior.  As far as he is concerned, the reprehensibility of the latter’s behavior provides even greater reason they need to confine their activities to the church and pastoral concerns.
         Hitler had no patience whatever with clergymen who sought to participate in politics and was even more opposed to any political parties they sought to create or actually led.
        In a 24 October 1933 speech in Berlin he stated:
         And above all we have pulled the priests out of the marsh of political party fighting and put them back into the church again.  It is our desire that they never again return to an area which they were not created for, which debases them and which must inevitably bring them into opposition to millions of people who really want to be faithful inside, but who want to see priests serve God and not a political party!
         ADOLPH HITLER QUOTATIONS, by Karl Hammer,1990, Page 59

         At the annual Party Congress on 11 September 1935:
         We have already fought a battle against the political clergy and ousted it from the parliaments, and that after a long struggle in which we had no state authority and the other side had it all.  Today we have this authority and we will more easily be able to win the struggle for these principles.  But we will never wage this battle as a battle against Christianity or even against one of the two confessions. But we will wage it in order to keep our public life pure and free of those priests who have mistaken their calling, those who should have become politicians and not clergymen.
         HITLER, [Speeches and Proclamations], by Max Domarus, Vol. 2, page 692

         And in Mein Kampf:
         ... the movement [Nazism] fought most bitterly against the Center [the Catholic party], not, of course, on religious, but exclusively on questions of national, racial, and economic policy.
         MEIN KAMPF, Adolph Hitler, New York, Reynal & Hitchcock, 1939, page 829

         From Hitler’s perspective the Weimar government that ruled Germany for 14 years after WWI was peopled by a gang of traitorous puppets doing the bidding of the allied powers while working in close collaboration with Marxists who held offices at every level of German leadership, an allegation not significantly different from that propounded by Joe McCarthy in the United States 2 decades later.  As far as Hitler was concerned every political party except the NSDAP was guilty of subversion to one degree or another and that was certainly true in his eyes of the Centrist Party which was overwhelmingly dominated by Catholic leaders.  Collaboration between religious parties and godless atheists, the Marxists, was constantly denounced by Hitler in no uncertain terms and he repeatedly said he could never understand how religious figures could work with the godless.
         For the first number of the Volkischer Beobachter on 26 February 1925 Hitler wrote an article in which he said:
         ... a party which allies itself with atheistic Marxism for the oppression of its own people is neither Christian nor Catholic.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 368

         In a 31 July 1932 election proclamation:
         I don't understand... how one can talk against the Godless like the Center (party), but at the same time come to terms with them.
         ADOLPH HITLER QUOTATIONS, by Karl Hammer,1990, Page 31

         In a speech delivered at Cologne on 19 February 1933 Hitler continued his attack upon Centrum--the Catholic Centre Party--by saying:
         How can a party talk of the fight for Christianity which for 14 years has sat together with atheists and those who deny the existence of God?
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 249

         In an address to the Party Congress on 12 September 1938:
         ... The Center Party [the Catholic Party] claimed to be fighting us because we were hostile to the Church, and yet to this end it entered into a holy alliance with atheist Social Democrats and did not shrink from uniting with the Communists....
         HITLER, [Speeches and Proclamations], by Max Domarus, Vol. 2, page 1151

         While speaking to some religious figures and others:
         Good, I take note of that.  But how can you then advocate a coalition with the Marxists, with our deadly enemies, the Social Democrats?
         SECRET CONVERSATIONS WITH HITLER, Edited by Edouard Calic, 1971. Page 34

         In the New Year's Proclamation for 1 January 1932:
         Today Bolshevism and its Marxist-Centrist-Democratic helpers are faced with a gigantic front of awakening Germany!  Were it not for the pact which the Center and the middle classes have entered into with Marxism as a result of their inner relatedness of character, there would be no red, anti-Christian Germany today.  Therefore they are the accursed accomplices of Bolshevism.
         HITLER, SPEECHES AND PROCLAMATIONS 1932-45, Vol. 1, by Max Domarus, page 79

         In his New Year’s Message on 1 January 1934 Hitler claimed that by destroying the Catholic Center Party he was serving both religion and morality:
         Not only in the economic sphere but also in the other spheres of the nation's life we have, during the past year, fought an unceasing battle against the symptoms of degeneracy in our people.  The religious, moral, and ethical signs of the time spoke a language that compelled us so to act.  While we destroyed the Center Party, we have not only brought thousands of priests back into the Church, but to millions of respectable people we have restored their faith in their religion and in their priests.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 382

         In a statement on the Enabling Act on 23 March 1933:
         In being determined to undertake the political and moral purification of our public life, the government is creating and securing the requirements for a genuinely profound return to religious life.
         The advantages in personnel policy which might result from compromises with atheist organizations do not come close to offsetting the results which would become apparent in the general destruction of basic moral values.
 The National Government perceives in the two Christian confessions [Protestantism and Catholicism] the most important factors for the preservation of our Volkstum.  It will respect any contracts concluded between these churches and the Lander.
         ... The Government's concern lies in an honest coexistence between Church and State; the fight against the materialist Weltanschauung and for a genuine Volksgemeinschaft equally serves both the interests of the German nation and the welfare of our Christian faith.
         HITLER, SPEECHES AND PROCLAMATIONS 1932-45, Vol. 1, by Max Domarus, page 279
         MY NEW ORDER by Hitler, Edited by Raoul de Roussy de Sales, 1941, Page 153
         THE HITLER DECREES, by James Pollock and Harlow Heneman, 1934, Page 66

         In a Stuttgart speech on 15 February 1933:
         And now Staatsprasident Bolz says that Christianity and the Catholic faith are threatened by us.  And to that charge I can answer: In the first place it is Christians [Nazis] and not international atheists who now stand at the head of Germany.  I do not merely talk of Christianity, no, I also profess that I will never ally myself with the parties which destroy Christianity.  If many wish today to take threatened Christianity under their protection, where, I would ask, was Christianity for them in these 14 years when they went arm in arm with atheism?  No, never and at no time was greater internal damage done to Christianity than in these 14 years when a party, theoretically Christian, sat with those who denied God in one and the same Government.
         But no, they could not, they did not wish to separate themselves from the party-world of atheism.  We wish to fill our culture once more with the spirit of Christianity--and not only in theory.  No, we want to burn out the symptoms of decomposition in literature, in the theater, in the Press--in a word in our whole culture; we want to burn out this whole poison which during these 14 years has flowed into our life.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 240
         HITLER, SPEECHES AND PROCLAMATIONS 1932-45, Vol. 1, by Max Domarus, page 253

         The philosophy of George Bush is thoroughly embodied in words such as “We wish to fill our culture once more with the spirit of Christianity--and not only in theory.”  Realizing that fact the problem then becomes one of deciding to what extent “we want to burn out the symptoms of decomposition in literature, in the theater, in the Press--in a word in our whole culture; we want to burn out this whole poison...” is representative of Bushism as well.
 When attacked for using a Swastika as his emblem, Hitler retaliated by denouncing his detractors for placing the Christian Cross at the head of parties allied with atheistic Marxism.  For him the Swastika was the political symbol of complete detachment from atheism.
        In Munich on 25 October 1930 he stated:
         And when it is said to me as many have: How can you carry your heathenish symbol [Swastika] in the van of this struggle when the Christian Cross alone is called to lead it?  To that I say: This symbol is not directed against the Christian Cross.  On the contrary, it is the political manifestation of what the Christian cross intends or must intend.... I believe that if now suddenly Christ, our Lord, should appear among this unfortunate German people and one were to induce him to take a stand in this political struggle--I do not believe that Christ, our Lord, would go and seek out a place within the ranks of the [Catholic] Center Party in the German Reichstag!
         To be sure, our Christian Cross should be the most exalted symbol of the struggle against the Jewish-Marxist-Bolshevik spirit. But then the parties, however, which come to terms with Marxism, with Atheism, indeed with the refined form of the same which Bolshevism represents, should not advertise the Cross of Christ as their party symbol.  One should from the very beginning, however, preserve this Cross from any political contact until the structure of these political parties again becomes worthy of association with this symbol, until these parties again pursue policies which are in keeping with the inner significance of this symbol.
         HITLER'S WORDS, by Adolph Hitler, Edited by Gordon Prange, 1944, page 87

         And in Mein Kampf:
         In the two religious denominations [Protestantism and Catholicism] it [the Nazi party] sees two equally valuable pillars for the existence of our people, and for this reason it fights those parties which wish to degrade this foundation of an ethical, religious, and moral prop [the Cross] of our national body to the instrument of their party interests.
         MEIN KAMPF, Adolph Hitler, New York, Reynal & Hitchcock, 1939, page 479

         Hitler was not only vigorously opposed to religious figures or religious parties participating in politics but felt that by aligning with the material world of Bolshevism the religious leaders were preparing the masses for a fall into materialism.  This was the evident when he said:
         The most pressing danger, as I see it, is that Christianity, by adhering to a conception of the Beyond which is constantly exposed to the attacks of unceasing progress, and by binding it so closely to many of the trivialities of life which may at any moment collapse, is ripening mankind for conversion to materialistic Bolshevism.  And that is a terrible tragedy.
         HITLER'S TABLE TALK, 1941-1944, Translated by Cameron & Stevens, 2000, page 606

         In fact, for Catholic Hitler some religious teachings were wrong in their own right, regardless of to whom they may or may not be allied.  Although deeply religious, the Fuhrer was not a sycophantic adherent to every tenet of Catholicism and proved as much by expressing disdain for some teachings and dogma often decried by atheists and others as well.  This became obvious when he said:
         For me, God is the Logos of St. John, which has become flesh and lives in the world, interwoven with it and pervading it, conferring on it drives and driving force, and constituting the actual meaning and content of the world.
 Perhaps the adherents of the Roman Church would call this "paganism."  That may well be so.  In that case, Christ was a pagan.  I call pagan their distortions of Christ's ideas and teachings, their cults, their conception of hell, purgatory, and heaven, and their worship of saints.
         HITLER--MEMOIRS OF A CONFIDANT, by Otto Wegener, 1985, page 224

         It is no less difficult to eradicate these childish inhibitions than it is to free the human soul of that haunting terror of Hell which the Catholic Church impresses on it with such vigor during its most tender years.  A man possessed of a minimum of intelligence who takes the trouble to ponder over these questions has no difficulty in realizing how nonsensical these doctrines of the Church are.  For how, he must ask himself, can a man possibly be put on a spit, be roasted and tortured in a hundred other ways when, in the nature of things, his body has no part in the resurrection?  And what nonsense it is to aspire to a Heaven to which, according to the Church's own teaching, only those have entry who have made a complete failure of life on earth!  It won't be much fun, surely, to have to meet again there all those whose stupidity, in spite of the biblical tag "blessed are the humble of heart," has already infuriated one beyond endurance on this earth!  Imagine, too, how tremendously attractive a Heaven will be to a man, which contains only women of indifferent appearance and faded intellect!  Only those, we are told, with the minimum of sin shall enter through the gates of Heaven; now, in spite of the fact that the burden of sin must inevitably grow heavier with each successive year, I have yet to meet a priest anxious to leave this life as quickly, and therefore with as light a burden, as possible!  But I could name many a Cardinal of 60 and over who clings most tenaciously to life on this sinful earth.  When one examines the Catholic religion closely, one cannot fail to realize that it is an almost incredibly cunning mixture of hypocrisy and business acumen, which trades with consummate skill on the deeply ingrained affection of mankind for the beliefs and superstitions he holds.  It is inconceivable that an educated priest should really believe all the nonsense that the Church pours out; a proof there, to my mind, is the fact that the priest themselves always try to confuse the issue on the subject of the swindle of dispensations, and avoid whenever possible any discussion of the subject.
         HITLER'S TABLE TALK, 1941-1944, Translated by Cameron & Stevens, 2000, page 419

         He went so far as to unconditionally denounce some acts of the Catholic Church:
 When one recollects further that the Catholic Church has elevated to the status of Saints a whole number of madmen,....
         HITLER'S TABLE TALK, 1941-1944, Translated by Cameron & Stevens, 2000, page 513

         And his censure of the Church’s oppressive history was exceptionally vehement:
         The pity is that people who reason in this matter appear to forget that the Church does not strive to propagate its teaching by reason and gentle persuasion, but by force and threat.  This is certainly not my idea of education.  It is moreover obvious that, had the Church followed solely the laws of Love, and had she preached Love alone as the means of instilling her moral precepts, she would not have survived for very long.  She has therefore always remained faithful to the ancient maxim that the right hand must not know what the left hand does, and has bowed to the necessity of imposing her moral principles by means of the utmost brutality, not hesitating even to burn in their thousands men and women of merit and virtue.  We ourselves are today much more humane than the Church.  We obey the Commandment: "Thou shall not kill," by catching and executing a murderer; but the Church, when the executive power lay in her hands, crucified, quartered and did him to death with indescribable torture.
         HITLER'S TABLE TALK, 1941-1944, Translated by Cameron & Stevens, 2000, page 420

         Yet, Hitler, like so many Christian apologists throughout history, was quick to discount heinous acts perpetrated in the name of Christianity by blaming odious transgressions on individuals rather than Christianity in general.  That approach surfaced early on at a conference of all district organizers held at Bamberg on 14 February 1923 in which Hitler formally appointed Gottfried Feder to be the final judge and spokesman on all questions regarding the Programme.  In his commentary Feder wrote:
         ". . .  The same may be said of all the course, stupid attacks on Christianity.  Expressions such as 'Christianity has only done harm' merely show that the man who utters them has neither human nor political intelligence.  One may indeed blame the Church for meddling in politics, and all good Christians still disapprove of the cruelties practiced in the name of the Cross by the Inquisition and of the trials for witchcraft, but it is wrong to abuse in general terms the greatest phenomenon in human history because of the perversities and erroneous ideas and defaults of individuals.  The Christian religion has uplifted and strengthened millions upon millions, and brought them to God by the way of suffering."
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 366

         The foregoing helps explains why Hitler said of the previous government in a Stuttgart speech on Feb. 15, 1933:
         I would ask whether the economic policy of this now superseded system was a Christian policy.  Was the inflation an undertaking for which Christians could answer, or has the destruction of German life, of the German peasant as well as of the middle classes, been Christian?
         MY NEW ORDER  by Adolph Hitler, Edited by de Sales, 1941, page 149

         All of the above vividly discloses why Hitler, like so many followers of Bush and his ideological predecessors, considered himself and his party to be the only bona fide carries of the Christian Cross, the true Christians.  From the Fuhrer’s vantage point all others were phonies and dupes or allies of either atheists or the non-religious and he alleged as much on several occasions.  In a speech at Koblenz to the Germans of the Saar on 26 August 1934 he said:
         I know that here and there the objection has been raised: Yes, but you have deserted Christianity.  No, it is not we who have deserted Christianity, it is those who came before us who deserted Christianity.  We have only carried through a clear division between politics, which have to do with terrestrial things, and religion, which must concern itself with the celestial sphere.  There has been no interference with the doctrine of the Confessions [Protestantism and Catholicism] or with their religious freedom, nor will there be any such interference.  On the contrary the State protects religion, though always on the one condition that religion will not be used as a cover for political ends.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 386

         In a 27 August 1934 speech in Ehrenbreitstein:
         Not we, rather those before us, distanced themselves from it (from Christianity).  We have simply introduced a pure separation between politics, which is supposed to occupy itself with earthly things, and religion, which must occupy itself with the divine.
         ADOLPH HITLER QUOTATIONS, by Karl Hammer,1990, Page 58

         In a speech at Koblenz on 26 August 1934:
         National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of real Christianity.  And we have no other desire than to be true to that position.... These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 386

         And he also claimed to be the genuine representative of Christianity by virtue of the fact that Nazis aided the poor and downtrodden.
        In his Munich speech to the "Old Guard" on 24 February 1939 he stated:
         If positive Christianity means love of one's neighbor, i.e., the tending of the sick, the clothing of the poor, the feeding of the hungry, the giving of drink to those who are thirsty, then it is we who are the more positive Christians.  For in these spheres the community of the people of National Socialist Germany has accomplished a prodigious work.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 402

         While talking at the Winter Help Campaign in October 1937:
         This Winter Help Work is also in the deepest sense a Christian work.  When I see, as I often do, poorly clad girls collecting with such infinite patience in order to care for those who are suffering from the cold while they themselves are shivering with cold, then I have the feeling that they are all apostles of a Christianity--and in truth of a Christianity which can say with greater right than any other: This is the Christianity of an honest confession, for behind it stand not words but deeds.
         HITLER'S SPEECHES by Norman Baynes, 1942, VOLUME 1, Page 393

         In summary, and in light of all the foregoing, one of the greatest misconceptions of the Nazi era can be laid to rest.  Hitler was in no sense an atheist or anti-religious but was very much in the Bush tradition of religious zealotry.

More can be found here: http://www.geocities.com/klomckin@ameritech.net/Chaps.1b.html#2nd%20Part%20of%20Chapter%201

Catholic Concentration Camps!

Catholic extermination camps
Surprisingly few know that Nazi extermination camps in World War II were by no means the only ones in Europe at the time. In the years 1942-1943 also in Croatia existed numerous extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveliç, a practicing Catholic and regular visitor to the then pope. There were even concentration camps exclusively for children!
In these camps - the most notorious was Jasenovac, headed by a Franciscan friar - orthodox-Christian Serbians (and a substantial number of Jews) were murdered. Like the Nazis the Catholic Ustasha burned their victims in kilns, alive (the Nazis were decent enough to have their victims gassed first). But most of the victims were simply stabbed, slain or shot to death, the number of them being estimated between 300,000 and 600,000, in a rather tiny country. Many of the killers were Franciscan friars. The atrocities were appalling enough to induce bystanders of the Nazi "Sicherheitsdienst der SS", watching, to complain about them to Hitler (who did not listen). The pope knew about these events and did nothing to prevent them. [MV]

 

[MV] A.Manhattan, The Vatican's Holocaust, Springfield 1986. See also: V.Dedijer, The Yugoslav Auschwitz and the Vatican, Buffalo NY, 1992.

 

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In regards to your claim

In regards to your claim that Secularists are anti-semetic, here's a few names you should recognize and remember:

 

  • Already in the 4th and 5th centuries synagogues were burned by Christians. Number of Jews slain unknown.
  • In the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed on command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The first synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river Euphrat, on command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388. [DA450]
  •  694 17. Council of Toledo: Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. [DA454]
  • 1010 The Bishop of Limoges (France) had the cities' Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [DA453]
  • 1096 First Crusade: Thousands of Jews slaughtered, maybe 12.000 total. Places: Worms 5/18/1096, Mainz 5/27/1096 (1100 persons), Cologne, Neuss, Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund, Kerpen, Trier, Metz, Regensburg, Prag and others (All locations Germany except Metz/France, Prag/Czech) [EJ]
  • 1147 Second Crusade: Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully, Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France). [WW57]
  • 1189/90 Third Crusade: English Jewish communities sacked. [DO40]
  • 1235, Fulda/Germany: 34 Jewish men and women slain. [DO41]
  • 1257, 1267: Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41]
  • 1290 Bohemia (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. [DO41]
  • 1337 Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51 towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. [DO41]
  • 1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand) burned. [DO41]
  • 1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]
  • 1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. [DO42]
  • 1391 Seville's Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. [DA454] Their identification was made easy by the brightly colored "badges of shame" that all Jews above the age of ten had been forced to wear.
  • 1492 In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World, more than 150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way: 6/30/1492. [MM470-476]
  • 1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain. [DO43]

(I feel sick ...) this goes on and on, century after century, right into the kilns of Auschwitz.

 

Also here's Luther: (From: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Luther_on_Jews.html)

Martin Luther: The Jews and Their Lies

(extracts)

I had made up my mind to write no more either about the Jews or against them. But since I learned that these miserable and accursed people do not cease to lure to themselves even us, that is, the Christians, I have published this little book, so that I might be found among those who opposed such poisonous activities of the Jews who warned the Christians to be on their guard against them. I would not have believed that a Christian could be duped by the Jews into taking their exile and wretchedness upon himself. However, the devil is the god of the world, and wherever God's word is absent he has an easy task, not only with the weak but also with the strong. May God help us. Amen.

***

He did not call them Abraham's children, but a "brood of vipers" [Matt. 3:7]. Oh, that was too insulting for the noble blood and race of Israel, and they declared, "He has a demon' [Matt 11:18]. Our Lord also calls them a "brood of vipers"; furthermore in John 8 [:39,44] he states: "If you were Abraham's children ye would do what Abraham did.... You are of your father the devil. It was intolerable to them to hear that they were not Abraham's but the devil's children, nor can they bear to hear this today.

***

Therefore the blind Jews are truly stupid fools...

***

Now just behold these miserable, blind, and senseless people.

***

...their blindness and arrogance are as solid as an iron mountain.

***

Learn from this, dear Christian, what you are doing if you permit the blind Jews to mislead you. Then the saying will truly apply, "When a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into the pit" [cf. Luke 6:39]. You cannot learn anything from them except how to misunderstand the divine commandments...

***

Therefore be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils in which sheer self­glory, conceit, lies, blasphemy, and defaming of God and men are practiced most maliciously and veheming his eyes on them.

***

Moreover, they are nothing but thieves and robbers who daily eat no morsel and wear no thread of clothing which they have not stolen and pilfered from us by means of their accursed usury. Thus they live from day to day, together with wife and child, by theft and robbery, as arch­thieves and robbers, in the most impenitent security.

***

However, they have not acquired a perfect mastery of the art of lying; they lie so clumsily and ineptly that anyone who is just a little observant can easily detect it. But for us Christians they stand as a terrifying example of God's wrath.

***

If I had to refute all the other articles of the Jewish faith, I should be obliged to write against them as much and for as long a time as they have used for inventing their lies­­ that is, longer than two thousand years.

***

...Christ and his word can hardly be recognized because of the great vermin of human ordinances. However, let this suffice for the time being on their lies against doctrine or faith.

***

Did I not tell you earlier that a Jew is such a noble, precious jewel that God and all the angels dance when he farts?

***

Alas, it cannot be anything but the terrible wrath of God which permits anyone to sink into such abysmal, devilish, hellish, insane baseness, envy, and arrogance. If I were to avenge myself on the devil himself I should be unable to wish him such evil and misfortune as God's wrath inflicts on the Jews, compelling them to lie and to blaspheme so monstrously, in violation of their own conscience. Anyway, they have their reward for constantly giving God the lie.

***

No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.

***

...but then eject them forever from this country. For, as we have heard, God's anger with them is so intense that gentle mercy will only tend to make them worse and worse, while sharp mercy will reform them but little. Therefore, in any case, away with them!

***

Over and above that we let them get rich on our sweat and blood, while we remain poor and they such the marrow from our bones.

***

I brief, dear princes and lords, those of you who have Jews under your rule­­ if my counsel does not please your, find better advice, so that you and we all can be rid of the unbearable, devilish burden of the Jews, lest we become guilty sharers before God in the lies, blasphemy, the defamation, and the curses which the mad Jews indulge in so freely and wantonly against the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, this dear mother, all Christians, all authority, and ourselves. Do not grant them protection, safe­conduct, or communion with us.... .With this faithful counsel and warning I wish to cleanse and exonerate my

conscience.

***

Let the government deal with them in this respect, as I have suggested. But whether the government acts or not, let everyone at least be guided by his own conscience and form for himself a definition or image of a Jew.

***

However, we must avoid confirming them in their wanton lying, slandering, cursing, and defaming. Nor dare we make ourselves partners in their devilish ranting and raving by shielding and protecting them, by giving them food, drink, and shelter, or by other neighborly

***

Therefore we Christians, in turn, are obliged not to tolerate their wanton and conscious blasphemy.

***

Accordingly, it must and dare not be considered a trifling matter but a most serious one to seek counsel against this and to save our souls from the Jews, that is, from the devil and from eternal death.

***

What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly ­ and I myself was unaware of it ­ will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. (remainder omitted)

Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuteronomy 17 [:10 ff.]) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: "what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord." Those villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people's obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16 {:18], "You are Peter," etc, inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the right to teach.

Fifth, I advise that safe­conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let they stay at home. (...remainder omitted).

Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us all they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God's blessing in a good and worthy cause.

Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen 3[:19]}. For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.

***

But what will happen even if we do burn down the Jews' synagogues and forbid them publicly to praise God, to pray, to teach, to utter God's name? They will still keep doing it in secret. If we know that they are doing this in secret, it is the same as if they were doing it publicly. for our knowledge of their secret doings and our toleration of them implies that they are not secret after all and thus our conscience is encumbered with it before God.

***

Accordingly, it must and dare not be considered a trifling matter but a most serious one to seek counsel against this and to save our souls from the Jews, that is, from the devil and from eternal death. My advice, as I said earlier, is:

First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss in sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire. That would demonstrate to God our serious resolve and be evidence to all the world that it was in ignorance that we tolerated such houses, in which the Jews have reviled God, our dear Creator and Father, and his Son most shamefully up till now but that we have now given them their due reward.

***

I wish and I ask that our rulers who have Jewish subjects exercise a sharp mercy toward these wretched people, as suggested above, to see whether this might not help (though it is doubtful). They must act like a good physician who, when gangrene has set in, proceeds without mercy to cut, saw, and burn flesh, veins, bone, and marrow. Such a procedure must also be followed in this instance. Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, force them to work, and deal harshly with them, as Moses did in the wilderness, slaying three thousand lest the whole people perish. They surely do not know what they are doing; moreover, as people possessed, they do not wish to know it, hear it, or learn it. There it would be wrong to be merciful and confirm them in their conduct. If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs, so that we do not become partakers of their abominable blasphemy and all their other vices and thus merit God's wrath and be damned with them. I have done my duty. Now let everyone see to his. I am exonerated."

***

My essay, I hope, will furnish a Christian (who in any case has no desire to become a Jew) with enough material not only to defend himself against the blind, venomous Jews, but also to become the foe of the Jews' malice, lying, and cursing, and to understand not only that their belief is false but that they are surely possessed by all devils. May Christ, our dear Lord, convert them mercifully and preserve us steadfastly and immovably in the knowledge of him, which is eternal life. Amen.

From Luther's Works, Volume 47: The Christian in Society IV, (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971). pp 268­293.

 

And earlier then that: (http://www.yashanet.com/library/fathers.htm)

Ignatius Bishop of Antioch (98-117A.D.) – Epistle to the Magnesians

For if we are still practicing Judaism, we admit that we have not received God’s favor…it is wrong to talk about Jesus Christ and live like Jews. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity.

 

"Epistle of Barnabas" Chapter 4vs 6-7 (between 130A.D. and 138 A.D.)

Take heed to yourselves and be not like some piling up you sins and saying that the covenant is theirs as well as ours. It is ours, but they lost it completely just after Moses received it.

 

Justin Martyr - Dialogue with Trypho (Between 138A.D. and 161 A.D.)

We too, would observe your circumcision of the flesh, your Sabbath days, and in a word, all you festivals, if we were not aware of the reason why they were imposed upon you, namely, because of your sins and the hardness of heart.

 The custom of circumcising the flesh, handed down from Abraham, was given to you as a distinguishing mark, to set you off from other nations and from us Christians. The purpose of this was that you and only you might suffer the afflictions that are now justly yours; that only your land be desolated, and you cities ruined by fire, that the fruits of you land be eaten by strangers before your very eyes; that not one of you be permitted to enter your city of Jerusalem. Your circumcision of the flesh is the only mark by which you can certainly be distinguished from other men…as I stated before it was by reason of your sins and the sins of your fathers that, among other precepts, God imposed upon you the observence of the sabbath as a mark.

 

Origen of Alexandria (185-254 A.D.) – A ecclesiastical writer and teacher who contributed to the early formation of Christian doctrines.

We may thus assert in utter confidence that the Jews will not return to their earlier situation, for they have committed the most abominable of crimes, in forming this conspiracy against the Savior of the human race…hence the city where Jesus suffered was necessarily destroyed, the Jewish nation was driven from its country, and another people was called by God to the blessed election.

 

John Chrysostom (344-407 A.D.) – One of the "greatest" of church fathers; known as "The Golden Mouthed." A missionary preacher famous for his sermons and addresses.

The synagogue is worse than a brothel…it is the den of scoundrels and the repair of wild beasts…the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults…the refuge of brigands and dabauchees, and the cavern of devils. It is a criminal assembly of Jews…a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ… a house worse than a drinking shop…a den of thieves, a house of ill fame, a dwelling of iniquity, the refuge of devils, a gulf and a abyss of perdition."…"I would say the same things about their souls… As for me, I hate the synagogue…I hate the Jews for the same reason.

From "The Roots of Christian Anti-Semitism" by Malcolm Hay

 

St. Augustine (c. 354-430 A.D.), Confessions, 12.14

How hateful to me are the enemies of your Scripture! How I wish that you would slay them (the Jews) with your two-edged sword, so that there should be none to oppose your word! Gladly would I have them die to themselves and live to you!

  

Peter the Venerable – known as "the meekest of men, a model of Christian charity"

Yes, you Jews. I say, do I address you; you, who till this very day, deny the Son of God. How long, poor wretches, will ye not believe the truth? Truly I doubt whether a Jew can be really human… I lead out from its den a monstrous animal, and show it as a laughing stock in the amphitheater of the world, in the sight of all the people. I bring thee forward, thou Jew, thou brute beast, in the sight of all men.

 From "The Roots of Christian Anti-Semitism" by Malcolm Hay

John Calvin

A Response To Questions and Objections of a Certain Jew

Their [the Jews] rotten and unbending stiffneckedness deserves that they be oppressed unendingly and without measure or end and that they die in their misery without the pity of anyone.Excerpt from "Ad Quaelstiones et Objecta Juaei Cuiusdam Responsio," by John Calvin; The Jew in Christian Theology, Gerhard Falk, McFarland and Company, Inc., Jefferson, NC and London, 1931.

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And one cannot forget the

And one cannot forget the Massacre at Worms:

 

The Massacre At Worms
http://www.templarhistory.com/worms.html

Many have visited "A History and Mythos of the Knights Templar" and accused us of glorifying the Crusades. Indeed this could not be further from the truth as war of any sort is wrought with death and is not something to be glorified.

Throughout the two centuries of the Templars and the five centuries that occupied the Crusades, many would die - Christian, Moslem and Jew alike. Some would die in battle and many others would die innocent victims of a religious, political and economic power struggle that would involve all of Europe and the East.

Many tales are told of the victories of the Crusaders in capturing the Holy Land from those, who were to them infidels but few accounts are given of the brutalities of those who would fight in the name of Christ. Below is such an account.

The Massacre At Worms

The town of Worms lies between the cities of Mannheim and Mainz in the Rhineland. Here in the graveyard of the town lie the bodies of 800 Jews massacred in the name of Christ and the Crusades that began in the year 1096 AD

Count Emich of Leiningen led this prelude to the eight campaigns of the Holy Wars that would come to be known as the Crusades. Emich, an important ruler from Swabia, believed he had a cross branded on his flesh that was of Divine origins.

In May of 1096, Emich and his followers swept through the village of Worms pulling Jews from their families and homes and under pressure of his self proclaimed Holy Sword gave them the choice of conversion to Christianity or death. This was not Emich's first persecution of the Jews. He actually began his campaign back home a month earlier near Speyer. The reason for Emich's army's treatment of the Jews was their belief that:

"Since they were the race responsible for the death and crucifixion of Jesus, they deserved nothing better than conversion or death."

This was a common thread of thought that ignorantly perseveres to this day and is a catalyst for much of the anti-Semitic feelings in the world. Unfortunately Worms would not be the only spot during the Crusader's route where innocents would die in the name of religion.

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Wow.  You're hardcore. 

Wow.  You're hardcore.  I'm going to spell owned as "rook" from now one.

 

  Rook'd.

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ShaunPhilly

ShaunPhilly wrote:

todangst wrote:
Our conscience is born of societal inculation - we learn right and wrong from our parents. We learn it so early that we ourselves forget it, and some of us, ignorant of psychology, actually mistake it for something 'supernatural' Your claim violates the basic law of parsimony - if you don't know what that means, ask.

 

I know this is tangental, but I wanted just to throw this is quickly. It might be a conversation to be had on one of the other threads.

I've been reading Marc D. Houser's new book, Moral Minds, and while not completely sold on his thesis, I think it has some merits.

 

The reason I bring it up here is that I think part of the confusion beteen the morals-come-from-god camp and the morals-come-from-society camp stems from the fact that (assuming Hauser is correct) there is a moral faculty that is essentially universal (that is, some lack in like some people lack eyesight), but it expresses itself in social rules.

The metaphor that Hauser uses is that the moral faculty work along the same lines as language, where we all have the faculty, but we speak different languages with syntax and so forth.

 

 

As Harry Stack Sullivan once wrote, we are all more alike than we we are different. That there are universal elements to morality si due to this reality.

 

Any theist moral explanation violates the rules of parsimony, we need not waste any more time on it.... 

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Susan wrote:Insidium

Susan wrote:
Insidium Profundis wrote:
dmiclock wrote:
Secular humanism has killed more people than any entity ever.
Please support this assertion. Also please do not make the obvious fallacy of bringing up communism which, while being atheistic, certainly was not secular humanism.
Dmiclock, please support your statement.

 

He's not capable of backing up such claims, he reads them on the internet and is neither concerned with, nor capable of seeing the logical flaw in teh claim. He's making the weak analogy between the non theism concomitant with Stalinism and Maoism and blaming  the 'secularism' and not the violent ideology of Stalinism or Maoism for the crimes of Stalinism or Maoism....

 

By the same logic, he sould also cry out against men wearing pants, after all, maoists and stalinists wear pants... so wearing pants is also correlated with mass murder....

 The obvious real culprit is dogmatic acceptance of ideology... we find it in Stalinism, Maoism and religion.

 

Rook, thank you for demonstrating for "DimBulb" that the antisemitism of the nazis was born of Luther's psychotic rage against the jews. Hitler called upon pre existent hatred of the jews created by protestants. 

 

Here's my "cut and paste' version... however, unlike DimBulb, while I do cut and paste it, I cut it from my own website.

 

Luther's Racism

The magazine Christian History, Issue 39, 1993 (published by Christianity Today) devoted a whole issue to Martin Luther's life and legacy. Pages 38-39 quote his work On the Jews and Their Lies which gives us an idea about how moral Luther's views were:

"Set fire to their synagogues and schools. Jewish houses should be razed and destroyed, and Jewish prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, curing, and blasphemy are taught, [should] be taken from them." Their rabbis [should] be forbidden to teach on pain of loss of life and limb." This is a man held to be a moral authority?! Luther also urged that "safe conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews," and that "all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them." What Jews could do was to have "a flail, an ax, a hole, a spade" put into their hands so "young, strong Jews and Jewesses" could "earn their bread in the sweat of their brow." Do you think any Fuhrer you may have heard of might have gleaned an idea or two from that last passage alone? In fact, think of Hitler while reading the next paragraph

Luther proposed seven measures of "sharp mercy" that German princes could take against Jews: (1) burn their schools and synagogues; (2) transfer Jews to community settlements; (3) confiscate all Jewish literature, which was blasphemous; (4) prohibit rabbis to teach, on pain of death; (5) deny Jews safe conduct, so as to prevent the spread of Judaism; (6) appropriate their wealth and use it to support converts and to prevent the Jews' practice of usury; (7) assign Jews to manual labor as a form of penance.

Is there no clearer blueprint for the Final Solution than the works of one of christianity's greatest reformers and moralists?

Worse yet, Luther was no paper philosopher - he advised clergy, their congregations, and all government officials to help carry out these measures. Since most Jews had been expelled from Germany before 1536, Luther's counsel was implemented by few officials. Yet a harsh anti-Jewish measure in 1543 mentioned Luther's On the Jews and Their Lies.

Both Luther's friends and his foes criticized him for proposing these measures. His best friends begged him to stop his anti-Jewish raving, but Luther continued his attacks in other treatises. He repeated as true the worst anti-Semitic charges from medieval literature: that Jews killed Christian babies; they murdered Christ over and over again by stabbing eucharistic hosts; they poised wells. As usual, he did not allow facts to deter him from his emotionally driven lies.

Luther now thought what he had accused Catholics of thinking in 1523: Jews were dogs. "We are at fault for not slaying them!" he fumed shortly before his death. Yet one more hypocricy for the master of hypocrisy.

 

The nazi holocaust built off hatred fueled by Luther and christians. 

 

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Sleep and Ye shall find.

dmiclock wrote:
We were created to seek Him and reach out for Him - though He is not far from any of us.

Why do you suppose that other people seek other gods?  or none at all?  If we were created to seek this god, why are young children sent to school for religious education?  Why the need to explain your so-called, 'nearby' god to anyone? 

I'm guessing this is some kind of projection in your mind.  You see, most of what you said, begs these questions.

Think about it some more, and get back to reality.


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I don't this anyone should

I don't this anyone should engage Dmiclock in any other discussions on this board until he comes back to this thread, admits that his ass was owned and handed to him by Rook and Todangst on this point, and humbly begs forgiveness for posting erroneous trash on this site.   I'm getting so sick of these hit and run assholes who throw this garbage around in hopes that no one will bother to clean it up an others will see it and believe it.

Go foul your own nest with your lies about secular government, Dimcock.

 

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Tilberian wrote:I'm

Tilberian wrote:

I'm getting so sick of these hit and run assholes who throw this garbage around in hopes that no one will bother to clean it up an others will see it and believe it.

Go foul your own nest with your lies about secular government, Dimcock.

 

First of all, don't cuss at me.  Second I know y'all might have a hard time beleiving this, but I do have a job that doesn't require wearing a name tag.  So give me some lead time will ya.

Yeah, this is all garbage Tilberian, but keep sticking up for the great secular governments of the world.  This has been a common theme lately.  Explain how secular humanism has been worse than religion, but don't dare talk about the flower that is communism.

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Kemono,   Sorry for the

Kemono,

 

Sorry for the delay in responding to your questions, but here goes.

1.  Morality comes from our ability to determine right from wrong, and our free will to act on it.  Its built in, every human has it.  No other creatire has it, just us.  This also relates to the fact that there are absolute truths in the world.  Moral relativism may appear to be the norm, but we as humans use this concept to justify the fact that we do wrong.

2.  If you belive in evolution as the fundamental process for the vast speciation of the planet then, the concept of man's sinnfullness is diffcult to grasp.  Think of it this way, if cells serve a purpose for a body, then you serve a purpose for the universe.

3.  God didn't get preferences from anywhere.  Created in His likeness means we were created with the same attributes.  Anything contrary to this is sin.

4.  Yes God is just and the idea of eternal damnation is hard to comprehend.  However, if we are to claim He is Good, then He must also be Just (a Good Judge wold never let a crminial off the hook), and in being that - sinners will be punished.  Peple have a hard time with this because we either look at evil as relativistic, or we rationalize it away as being just who we are.  However, our consciences tell us otherwise. 

5.  The Gospel is important for a number of reasons.  A common misconception among Christians and non-Christians alike is this idea that it's unfair for those who never heard the Gospel to go to Hell.  On the surface that does sound horrific.  However, the Biible never says that.  All people will be judged according to the Law.  The same one that is written on all of our hearts. (Shaun - you asked about keeping the Sabbath and no false gods, and yes we all have this).  Simply put, we are here for a purpose, we know right from wrong, people who do wrong will be punished.  Jesus preached the gospel messge of repentance and trust.  He paid our fine, and he rose from the dead, not only to prove who he was, but to remind us that we are eternal beings, there is life after death, there will be a judgement.

The gospel message must be spread, and those who have heard it, and don;t accept it have no excuse.  Jesus' actions on earth was the proof and, still is the proof of who He was.  Consequenetly, there are still some on this site that argue the actual historical existence of Jesus, when that debate has been put to bed for centuries.

6.  God didn't punish Himself on the cross.  He's the judge, He paid the fine you owed for the sins you commit.  If you choose through your free will not to accept that then you are not damned and punished by Him for not accepting Him, you are simply denied access to the eternal life that is already yours.

Some of you might not like this post, but He asked and I wanted to respond.

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dmiclock wrote: Tilberian

dmiclock wrote:
Tilberian wrote:

I'm getting so sick of these hit and run assholes who throw this garbage around in hopes that no one will bother to clean it up an others will see it and believe it.

Go foul your own nest with your lies about secular government, Dimcock.

 

First of all, don't cuss at me. Second I know y'all might have a hard time beleiving this, but I do have a job that doesn't require wearing a name tag. So give me some lead time will ya.

Yeah, this is all garbage Tilberian, but keep sticking up for the great secular governments of the world. This has been a common theme lately. Explain how secular humanism has been worse than religion, but don't dare talk about the flower that is communism.

Whine, whine whine... 

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

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Rook_Hawkins wrote:  Wow,

Rook_Hawkins wrote:
 Wow, somebody needs to learn history...sorry to have to kick your ass here:

I appreciate you taking the time to pull all of this data together, and much of it I am aware of.  Public religious expression was discouraged and evevntually banned in Nazi Germany as evident in many of the quotes you pulled.  You can see the pattern of slowly pushing the church (both Catholic and Evangelical) back to the confines of their respective sanctuaries beginning as early as '32.  Pandering to religious groups in public speeches crystalized support for his anti-bolshevism campaign which indeed was his main focus.

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Yeah thats about all I

Yeah thats about all I do.  Where did we leave off?


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dmiclock

dmiclock wrote:

Rook_Hawkins wrote:
 Wow, somebody needs to learn history...sorry to have to kick your ass here:

I appreciate you taking the time to pull all of this data together, and much of it I am aware of.  Public religious expression was discouraged and evevntually banned in Nazi Germany as evident in many of the quotes you pulled.

Back that up. 

Quote:
  You can see the pattern of slowly pushing the church (both Catholic and Evangelical) back to the confines of their respective sanctuaries beginning as early as '32. 

Back it up. 

Quote:
Pandering to religious groups in public speeches crystalized support for his anti-bolshevism campaign which indeed was his main focus.

This wasn't just in speeches, it was to friends and his closest confidants.  Hitler didn't use religion as a political tool he actually believed in it.  You obviously didn't bother reading.

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dmiclock wrote: First of

dmiclock wrote:
First of all, don't cuss at me.  Second I know y'all might have a hard time beleiving this, but I do have a job that doesn't require wearing a name tag.  So give me some lead time will ya.

Yeah, this is all garbage Tilberian, but keep sticking up for the great secular governments of the world.  This has been a common theme lately.  Explain how secular humanism has been worse than religion, but don't dare talk about the flower that is communism.

Reserving comment until you respond to even one of the refutations of your prior assinine statements.  Please take as long as you want - I know those toilets won't clean themselves.  Asshole.

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
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Rook_Hawkins wrote: This

Rook_Hawkins wrote:

This wasn't just in speeches, it was to friends and his closest confidants.  Hitler didn't use religion as a political tool he actually believed in it.  You obviously didn't bother reading.

Of course he did, there were many elements to his rule that suggested divine right, how elese would he justify it?  My disageement with you is that it wasn't a 'Catholic' lead crusade agianst the Jews like you are trying to assert.  There were many other layers involved with the NSDAP's solution for European Jewry.

Religion was kept in its place by basically not allowing it to be involved in anything the state or party did.  This was a subtle form and PC way to discourage it.  Did you read all of your pasted quotes?

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Tilberian wrote: - I know

Tilberian wrote:
- I know those toilets won't clean themselves.  Asshole.

Now that was a good crack.  At least some of you do have a sense of humor.

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dmiclock wrote:

dmiclock wrote:
Are you a good person?
Do you think your bad enough to commit your own suffering ?
dmiclock wrote:
Do you lie?
Do you ever tell the truth ?

dmiclock wrote:
Do you steal?
Have you ever given something without expecting anything in return ?
dmiclock wrote:
Do you harbor hate for anyone unjustly?
Have you ever been happy to see peoples who disagree ?
dmiclock wrote:
Have you committed adultery?
Have you ever look at a woman with respect ?
dmiclock wrote:
Do you take the Lord's name in vain?
Have you ever taken in god's name in vain seriously ?

God had no time to create time.


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Pikachu wrote: dmiclock

Pikachu wrote:
dmiclock wrote:
Are you a good person?
Do you think your bad enough to commit your own suffering ?
dmiclock wrote:
Do you lie?
Do you ever tell the truth ?

Pikachu:

Yeah, that line of reason seems to make sense on the surface, however, think of it this way.  A person spends his whole life not killing anyone, do we label that person a 'life giver'?  No, once a person commits murder, he's a murderer.  If you rape one woman, but treat all the others you meet with utmost repsect, are you not still a rapist?

If you break the law, that's what you are, a law breaker. 

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dmiclock wrote:

dmiclock wrote:
If you break the law, that's what you are, a law breaker.
Do you see your self as a robot or human being ?

God had no time to create time.


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That whole Ray Comfort

That whole Ray Comfort garbage assumes that lying is always bad, and assumes adultery and saying "goddamn" are bad things, too (and that looking at a woman lustfully is bad???WTF?????) As atheists we would say these things are either harmless or all but, and engaging in these activities would not disqualify you from being a good person.

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MattShizzle wrote: That

MattShizzle wrote:
That whole Ray Comfort garbage assumes that lying is always bad, and assumes adultery and saying "goddamn" are bad things, too (and that looking at a woman lustfully is bad???WTF?????) As atheists we would say these things are either harmless or all but, and engaging in these activities would not disqualify you from being a good person.
Yup.

No need for god in any form of moral. Gods just makes morality more muddy and unclear.

Moral is easy:
- Don't take or inflict damage to anything that is not yours
- Don't harm other humans or animals.

What else is there really?
Religion adds a whole lot of other crap that is not needed.

God had no time to create time.


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Quote: That whole Ray

Quote:
That whole Ray Comfort garbage assumes that lying is always bad

 

Oh, but do I love it so. Someone gives you that BS, ou just turn around and ask them "Have you ever lied?"

 They say yes, and you go off on them.

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Pikachu wrote: Do you see

Pikachu wrote:
Do you see your self as a robot or human being ?

A Human Being.  More specifically, a human becoming.  I have absolute free will to do what I please.  That's why the law is important.  If you follow the atheist line of thought out to its logical conclusion, then our existence serves no purpose.  That there is no apparent purpose or reasin for anything, but inside each of us there screams purpose.  Its not made up its part of us.  Animals repsond to instinct naturally, we can overide that, that's free will.  Christanity does not create mindless robots deviod of any individuallity or freedom, it steers us back to our purpose.

Like I said earlier, becasue a single cell serves a purpose for the body, so do we serve a purpose for the unverse.

It also all comes down to good vs evil.  Are they relative concepts, or are they absolute?

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I would also disagree that

I would also disagree that ever lying makes someone a liar. When you say someone is a liar, it generally means they habitually lie.

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dmiclock wrote:

dmiclock wrote:
Pikachu wrote:
Do you see your self as a robot or human being ?

A Human Being. More specifically, a human becoming. I have absolute free will to do what I please. That's why the law is important. If you follow the atheist line of thought out to its logical conclusion, then our existence serves no purpose. That there is no apparent purpose or reasin for anything, but inside each of us there screams purpose. Its not made up its part of us. Animals repsond to instinct naturally, we can overide that, that's free will. Christanity does not create mindless robots deviod of any individuallity or freedom, it steers us back to our purpose.

Like I said earlier, becasue a single cell serves a purpose for the body, so do we serve a purpose for the unverse.

It also all comes down to good vs evil. Are they relative concepts, or are they absolute?

P1. The purpose of the theistic God's existence is unknown; even by theists.
P2. Existence has always been "in existence".
P3. Reality is an example of an existence.
P4. You are an example of reality.
C1. Reality has always been "in existence".
C2. Your reality has always been "in existence".
C3. No need to know what the exsitence of the thesitic God "in reality" is so stop trying. Do something more valuable like identiying a secular definition of what it means to say that your reality has always been in existence.
C4. When you resolve C3 then go to C5.
C5. The concept of God identifies a specific real state of reality between each individual human and their own reality.


Ignoring the fact that you cannot know that god simply knows this, so for the sake of argument we assume that you have somehow received this piece of knowledge from God. How is this not removing their free will? They simply have to play along like puppets and follow the script exactly as God knows it will run and exactly as God planned it would run and they cannot help themselves but are totally under God's control when he pull the strings like an insane puppeteer.

God had no time to create time.


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dmiclock wrote:

dmiclock wrote:

A Human Being. More specifically, a human becoming.

So, if we are becoming, that is in perpetual change and (self-)creation, then at some point where we discontinue lying, we are no longer a liars.

Quote:
I have absolute free will to do what I please.

No you don't. Our wills are limited by physical lmitation, information, conceptual limitations ou can't do something you can't/don't think of), and other factors that we may like to do and try to do, but simply can't. I think it's important to be precise.

Quote:
That's why the law is important.

I think at this point int's important to ask why it would be imporant to ask why one needs to be told not to murder. If you don't already know that, you're a sociopath. And for these people, the punishment of jail is usually sufficient for them to decide taht it's not a good idea to murder, because their lack of conscience will not help. Thretening Hell or some other unsupported punishment merely adds fantasy.

Quote:
If you follow the atheist line of thought out to its logical conclusion, then our existence serves no purpose.

Praytell! On what assumption or axiom of "atheism" do you draw ant conclusions at all? That's the thing about logic; in order to draw any conclusion at all, one needs premises. Atehism has no premises, as it is he mere lack of belief in the existence of God.

Quote:
That there is no apparent purpose or reasin for anything, but inside each of us there screams purpose. Its not made up its part of us. Animals repsond to instinct naturally, we can overide that, that's free will. Christanity does not create mindless robots deviod of any individuallity or freedom, it steers us back to our purpose.

The hypothesis of God, in itself, contains no necessity of meaning or purpose.

G=God

P=purpose

~=negation

(a tip of the hat to pikachu)

G,P

G, ~P

~G, P

~G, ~P

Any of these are logically possible. What does God, or lack thereof, have to do with purpose?

You claim taht God gives you purpose, but if you just happen to be wrong and God does not exist, your sense of purpose does what....disappear? Ask the ex-theists here if their lives are without purpose. My life is not without purpose.

 

I know, God really exixts and our purpose derives from God, right? that's begging the question.

Quote:
Like I said earlier, becasue a single cell serves a purpose for the body, so do we serve a purpose for the unverse.

I am not sure what you mean by purpose, but I view it as something that is only relevant for conscious agents. Not all levels of complexity have this awaeness, so purpose might not be the best word. perhaps you mean that we all serve a function? But then, why must this function have an intended teleology?

I think you mean to say that without God there wold be no teleology. And on a cosmic scale, I'd agree. By why is the lack of ultimate purpose bad? Does it make my purpose, which is here to have a civil and intelligent dialogue, and less meaningful?

I don't think so.

Quote:
It also all comes down to good vs evil. Are they relative concepts, or are they absolute?

They are relative; relative to the observer, the severity of the actions, the amount of damage done, etc.Absolute is one of those words taht have no referent. that means that when you analyze them, you find that they really don't mean anything, even though you think they do.

Another example is perfect. It implies a kind of Platomism that simply does not dexcribe reality.

I'd prefer to talk morality elsewhere, as the question of relativism is another discussion.

Shaun

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Pikachu wrote:P1. The

Pikachu wrote:
P1. The purpose of the theistic God's existence is unknown; even by theists.

I disagree on the grounds that we have free will, and good and evil are not relative.


Quote:
P2. Existence has always been "in existence".

No it hasn't.  Cosmologists agree that we can trace the universe's existence back to a specific point (singularity B4 plank time) where time and space did not exist as it does now.  We had a begining.


Quote:
P3. Reality is an example of an existence.

I'm not sure what this means, but see below.

Quote:
P4. You are an example of reality.

This sounds like 'existence relativism' where perhaps my definition of relaity is different from yours, therefore I can justify x, y, z.........


Quote:
C1. Reality has always been "in existence".
C2. Your reality has always been "in existence".

See rebuttal to P2.


Quote:
C3. No need to know what the exsitence of the thesitic God "in reality" is so stop trying. Do something more valuable like identiying a secular definition of what it means to say that your reality has always been in existence.

Absolute necessity to know the existence of a theistic God in reality.  It's a driving force like hunger is to find food.

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C5. The concept of God identifies a specific real state of reality between each individual human and their own reality.

What does a real state of reality mean other than -  'everything anyone has ever experienced is relative' which I don't agree with.  There are absolutes


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Ignoring the fact that you cannot know that god simply knows this, so for the sake of argument we assume that you have somehow received this piece of knowledge from God. How is this not removing their free will? They simply have to play along like puppets and follow the script exactly as God knows it will run and exactly as God planned it would run and they cannot help themselves but are totally under God's control when he pull the strings like an insane puppeteer.

No, the fact that an all knowing, all existing God 'knows everything', doesn't mean that He determines the outcome.  We still make the choices, we still have free will.  Flip a coin and prove it.

All the ways of the Lord are loving and faithful for those who keep the demands of His covenant.


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dmiclock wrote:

dmiclock wrote:

Pikachu wrote:


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P2. Existence has always been "in existence".

No it hasn't. Cosmologists agree that we can trace the universe's existence back to a specific point (singularity B4 plank time) where time and space did not exist as it does now. We had a begining.

Matter is eternal. The universe, as we know it, is not. The universe had a beginning, not matter. I'm pretty sure Pikachu was referring to existence as in matter existing.

 

dmiclock wrote:

No, the fact that an all knowing, all existing God 'knows everything', doesn't mean that He determines the outcome. We still make the choices, we still have free will. Flip a coin and prove it.

It's like, you are going to flip a coin, but (an example) you already know what the result will be. You know that the coin will end up, say tails. You then go ahead and flip it, and it ends up tails as you already knew it would. My point is that in this case, the coin does not exactly have "freewill" as you already knew it was going to end tails side up.


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ShaunPhilly

ShaunPhilly wrote:
dmiclock wrote:

A Human Being. More specifically, a human becoming.

So, if we are becoming, that is in perpetual change and (self-)creation, then at some point where we discontinue lying, we are no longer a liars.

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I have absolute free will to do what I please.

No you don't. Our wills are limited by physical lmitation, information, conceptual limitations ou can't do something you can't/don't think of), and other factors that we may like to do and try to do, but simply can't. I think it's important to be precise.

And in christian theism, an omnipotent, omniscient 'god' not only creates the concept of free will from nothing, he shapes its  parameters, along with the parameters of every other aspect of existence, which of course, renders free will completely moot.

 

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Pikachu wrote: dmiclock

Pikachu wrote:
dmiclock wrote:
Are you a good person?
Do you think your bad enough to commit your own suffering ?
dmiclock wrote:
Do you lie?
Do you ever tell the truth ?

dmiclock wrote:
Do you steal?
Have you ever given something without expecting anything in return ?
dmiclock wrote:
Do you harbor hate for anyone unjustly?
Have you ever been happy to see peoples who disagree ?
dmiclock wrote:
Have you committed adultery?
Have you ever look at a woman with respect ?
dmiclock wrote:
Do you take the Lord's name in vain?
Have you ever taken in god's name in vain seriously ?

 

Very nice responses! The comfort argument rests upon an irrational precept: either you are perfect or you are worthless. This belief is anti human.

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dmiclock wrote:

dmiclock wrote:
I disagree on the grounds that we have free will, and good and evil are not relative.

1) God is omniscient, omnipresent, etc (Sees all, knows all) and has been this way since before he created the universe.
2) God is good, and therefore, anything in his plan is good. This includes the Holocaust, Bubonic plague, cancer, etc...

So, God knew everything that was going to happen before the beginning of time, and everything (no matter how horrible it seems to us mere humans) in his plan is good. The events of my life are fated and God knew how things would turn out.

Therefore, my atheism is God's will!

Only if he exists. If he doesn't exist it is not part of his will. Non-existent things does not have any will whatsoever.
dmiclock wrote:
No it hasn't. Cosmologists agree that we can trace the universe's existence back to a specific point (singularity B4 plank time) where time and space did not exist as it does now. We had a begining.

* P1. At all times, time exist - tautologically true.
* P2. If time exist, then space exist. - Appear to be true based on what we know about time and space.
* P3. If time and space exist then vacuum exist. Also, appear to be true by definition.
* P4. If vacuum exist then energy exist. Appear to be empirically true. I.e. experiments show it is true.
* P5. If time exist, then space and energy also exist. (From 2, 3 and 4).
* P6. If time, space and energy exist then the universe exist. This appears to be true by definition. the universe IS time, space and energy. Well, there may be other things also but those things are "enough" to assert a universe.
* P7. If time exist then the universe exist. (From 5 and 6)
* P8. At all times, the universe exists. (From 1 and 7).

Science support my claim.

dmiclock wrote:
Absolute necessity to know the existence of a theistic God in reality. It's a driving force like hunger is to find food.

God cannot know in absolute detail the future events. For example when he asked Abraham to sacrifice his son he could presumably know that he was going to do this at the moment he did but not before.
dmiclock wrote:
What does a real state of reality mean other than - 'everything anyone has ever experienced is relative' which I don't agree with. There are absolutes

One problem I have with the concept of all knowing is that it is impossible to be all knowing.

First we can try to define "all knowing" as "know everything".

This fails utterly. God cannot know everything. For example he cannot know that he is all knowing and so since he doesn't know that he is all knowing he cannot know everything.

Ok, so we lower the threshold a bit. We define "all knowing" as "know everything it is logically possible to know".

True, in this case it might be possible for god to be "all knowing" you might think but it doesn't help. He still cannot know that he is all knowing so even if he is, he wouldn't know he was, so he could never truthfully state "I am all knowing" and nobody can truthfully claim of him that he is all knowing. They cannot possibly know that.

In addition the latter definition suffer from another problem as well. The problem is that knowing everything that is logically possible is not itself logically possible.

I suggest we just ditch the "all knowing" idea. It was bunk to start with and it never got out of the bunk classification.

There are no all knowing individuals or beings anywhere. Period. We can state that with absolute certainty. Few things are known with absolute certainty but this is one of them.
dmiclock wrote:
No, the fact that an all knowing, all existing God 'knows everything', doesn't mean that He determines the outcome. We still make the choices, we still have free will. Flip a coin and prove it.
If I roll a dice and it turns out 6 you would have said "God knew that". If I had rolled it and it turned out a 4 you would also have said "God knew that" In fact, whatever I rolled, you would have said "God knew that". The point is, could you have told us BEFORE the roll what the dice would show?

God had no time to create time.


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dmiclock wrote: Pikachu

dmiclock wrote:

Pikachu wrote:
P1. The purpose of the theistic God's existence is unknown; even by theists.

I disagree on the grounds that we have free will, and good and evil are not relative.

 

All right, if you disagree with the premise, then you should be able to answer the question "What is the purpose of God?" I'm not sure what determinism/free will or the absolute/relative nature of good and evil bring to the question. If the purpose of Man is to glorify God (or whatever your position), then what is the purpose of God?


Quote:

No, the fact that an all knowing, all existing God 'knows everything', doesn't mean that He determines the outcome.  We still make the choices, we still have free will.  Flip a coin and prove it.

What will that prove? For someone who can create the cosmos, rigging a coin toss should be child's play. Of course, even if I do flip a coin, how can I tell that I do that of my own free will rather than because I was compelled to by an outside agency? 


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It occurred to me that the

It occurred to me that the reason that dmiclock is not understanding the point about an omnipotent God and the mootness of free will is that we have not, at least explicitly, made reference to Laplace's demon.

 In this case, dmiclock's god is the demon (demon, after all, comes from daemon, which were essentially angels).  

 

dmi, read the article linked above, and see if that helps you understand the problem.  

 Shaun

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dmiclock wrote: Like I

dmiclock wrote:

Like I said earlier, becasue a single cell serves a purpose for the body, so do we serve a purpose for the unverse.

A classic example of the fallacy of composition.

FALLACY OF COMPOSITION. The fallacy of composition occurs when we erroneously transpose of a characteristic of a part of a system, or a person, to be characteristic of the whole, or the whole personality. It's similar to the fallacy of small sample bias/hasty generalization. Example: Oxygen and Hydrogen are both gases, it follows that H2O is also a gas' 

 

 

Quote:
 

It also all comes down to good vs evil. Are they relative concepts, or are they absolute?

If there is an omnipotent, omnisicent deity, then they must be not only relative, but arbitrary, and completely contingent upon this deity.  This is known as the Euthyphro problem, and it is a problem for theism.

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

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Whoa, having a little

Whoa, having a little trouble trouble treading water here. (Studied more physical science than philosophy!)

pikachu wrote:
God cannot know everything. For example he cannot know that he is all knowing and so since he doesn't know that he is all knowing he cannot know everything.
I don't see how that follows. There is a self-reference, which I know can sometimes lead to paradox, but I seem to be missing it in this case.
todangst wrote:
Example: Oxygen and Hydrogen are both gases, it follows that H2O is also a gas' 
Well, sometimes it is (steam/water vapor) but since it can also be solid or liquid the point still stands. (Told you I was more familiar with physical science!)
Quote:
 If there is an omnipotent, omnisicent deity, then [good and evil] must be not only relative, but arbitrary, and completely contingent upon this deity.

I agree with the arbitrary and contingent conclusions, but not that it is relative. As I understand it, "absolute" means the same for all contexts or frames of reference. Thus the speed of light in a vacuum is absolute, since all observers measure it the same regardless of their motion relative to others. So if we define "good" as "whatever God does regardless of others," wouldn't that be an absolute?

 

Thanks in advance! 


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rackitycoon wrote: I don't

rackitycoon wrote:
I don't see how that follows. There is a self-reference, which I know can sometimes lead to paradox, but I seem to be missing it in this case.
The paradox is.

God is omniscient if for any true statement S, God believes S and God does not believe not-S. Consider the set of all true statements T and consider any subset V of T. Thus every statement in V is true. Consider the statement K(V): "God believes all statements in V is true" obviousy, since V only contain true statements and God believes every true statement God must necessarily indeed blelieve all statements in V and therefore K(V) must be true. Because K(V) is true, K(V) must be a member of T and T is the set of all things God believes to be true. Thus, we have a mapping from the powerset (set of subsets of T) to a subset of T (the subset of all statements of the form K(V) for any V) and this mapping is one to one. This is logically impossible. Consequently, it is logically impossible for anyone to actually believe every true statement S and it is logically impossible to form a set T. The "set" T is not a set and consequently, no being can actually believe all statements in T since T is not a set. You also have the added problem that even if God were to be omniscient he would have no way of knowing that he actually was. It is logically impossible for him to figure out that he really is omniscient even if he were. 

God had no time to create time.


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rackitycoon

rackitycoon wrote:

todangst wrote:
Example: Oxygen and Hydrogen are both gases, it follows that H2O is also a gas'
Quote:
Well, sometimes it is (steam/water vapor) but since it can also be solid or liquid the point still stands.
Are you really this obtuse? Or is it deliberate? Within the scope of the analogy hydrogen and oxygen are being refered to as gases. The point of the example is to demonstrate that it is an error to assume that one can judge the 'whole' from a part.
Quote:
If there is an omnipotent, omniscient deity, then [good and evil] must be not only relative, but arbitrary, and completely contingent upon this deity.
Quote:
Quote:

I agree with the arbitrary and contingent conclusions, but not that it is relative.

 

Fascinating.


 

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

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