Christianity in a nutshell

dmiclock
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Christianity in a nutshell

Hello All,

I wanted to thank you all for the opportunity to partake in some of the discussions recently, and I would be remiss if I didn't take an opportunity to spread God's Word. So I ask you to please lend me your eyes and your mind for just a few minutes and read below:

God created this universe and everything in it, including each one of us. Because He wanted to, and He could.

We were created with free will, a conscience that convicts us, and the law written on each of our hearts.

We were created to seek Him and reach out for Him - though He is not far from any of us.

Sin entered the world via our free will, and as such so did death, dissease, aging, etc..

God hates sin.

God is Just, and as such must punish those who break His laws.

God Loves all of us, even though we're all sinners.

When we choose to sin, we reject God and show contempt for all He has given us.

God calls us to repent from our sins and put our trust in Him. This means more and more, we strive to sin less and less.
As a result we become better people, not perfect people.

Jesus came to preach the Gospel, and take the punishment that each one of us deserves for our sins.
The wages of sin is death.

Christianity is different in the respect that all other religions are "Work Righteous" meaning that the more good things one does, the better the chances he/she goes to heaven. We get heaven not because we're good people, but because we're wretched sinners who accept the fact that our sins are paid in full for through the blood of Jesus.

It may not make sense to yo, and you may not like it, but....
Have a Merry Christmas.

All the ways of the Lord are loving and faithful for those who keep the demands of His covenant.


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Quote:God is Just, and as

Quote:
God is Just, and as such must punish those who break His laws.

Question: Do you honestly think eternal tourture is just?

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Quote:Christianity is

Quote:
Christianity is different in the respect that all other religions are "Work Righteous" meaning that the more good things one does, the better the chances he/she goes to heaven. We get heaven not because we're good people, but because we're wretched sinners who accept the fact that our sins are paid in full for through the blood of Jesus.

I find this pitifully masochistic. I would be miserable as a Christian.

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.


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Hi, dmiclock! Could you

Hi, dmiclock! Could you explain to me some things about Christianity that do not seem to make sense?

First, where does morality come from? Clearly human and animal morality is the product of evolution by natural selection, but where did god get his? I can't fathom why an omnipotent being would have an instinct for cooperation when he has no-one to cooperate with and can do anything by himself anyway. Doesn't this point to the conclusion that we made the gods up, making them essentially humans with magical powers?

dmiclock wrote:
Sin entered the world via our free will, and as such so did death, dissease, aging, etc..

How can this be, when clearly death, disease and aging have been around much longer than Homo Sapiens?

dmiclock wrote:
God hates sin.

Why? Where do god's preferences come from? Why are they so humanlike, when ours are ultimately product of natural selection? Doesn't this, too, point to the conclusion that we made the gods up in our own image?

dmiclock wrote:
God is Just, and as such must punish those who break His laws.

Christians also say that by believing in Jesus one gets off the hook. Does god need to punish people or does he not?

Punishment is a deterrent against transgressions. If god wants us to avoid transgressing his laws, why has he not communicated those laws and the penalty for breaking them to every human on the planet?

dmiclock wrote:
Jesus came to preach the Gospel[...]

Is the gospel important? If it is, why has god not communicated it to every human on the planet?

dmiclock wrote:
[...]and take the punishment that each one of us deserves for our sins.

So god can deal with this sin thing by punishing himself for it in our stead. There is no imperative for him to punish us, he just wants to. A god who likes inflicting eternal torment upon humans... Doesn't this point to the conclusion that we made this god up as a convenient tool for scaring our neighbour into giving us his hard-earned money?

dmiclock wrote:
Have a Merry Christmas.

Happy Christmas to you too!


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dmiclock wrote: God created

dmiclock wrote:

God created this universe and everything in it, including each one of us. Because He wanted to, and He could.

We were created to seek Him and reach out for Him - though He is not far from any of us.

I never understood the motivations for creating us. I've heard many things. In your statements, you said he made us because he could, or 'just because'. But we were also created to seek him out. I've heard that we were created to Love him, to glorify him. To me I often wonder why a God wants my love, wants me to glorify him, seek him out. What does that do for God.


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The whole idea of hell

The whole idea of hell destroys the idea the God of the Babble is just. Even Hitler doesn't deserve eternal torture, let alone a basically good person who simply requires actual evidence for belief.

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dmiclock wrote:Hello All, I

dmiclock wrote:
Hello All,

I wanted to thank you all for the opportunity to partake in some of the discussions recently, and I would be remiss if I didn't take an opportunity to spread God's Word. So I ask you to please lend me your eyes and your mind for just a few minutes and read below:

Actually you are far more remiss in proslytizing on a site that clearly doesn't welcome it.

dmiclock wrote:

God created this universe and everything in it, including each one of us. Because He wanted to, and He could.

You have no evidence for this. You have created this belief through faith, not reason. Using this mehod, you would be equally justified in forming the belief that a giant flying spaghetti monster created the universe. Perhaps this absurdity doesn't bother you, but you should at least be challenged if you try to claim that your beliefs are rational.

dmiclock wrote:

We were created with free will

Free will is an illusion that depends on belief in a supernatural soul. Everything we think and everything we do is determined by the thoughts, actions and circumstances that preceded the present moment. Before you can claim that free will exists, you must show evidence for the existence of a soul that exists outside the laws of causality.

dmiclock wrote:

a conscience that convicts us, and the law written on each of our hearts

Basic morality is indeed programmed into our hearts - by DNA and evolution. As social creatures we have a complex code of behaviour that we follow, and this is what we call our "conscience".

dmiclock wrote:

We were created to seek Him and reach out for Him - though He is not far from any of us.

What is the ultimate point of finding him?

dmiclock wrote:

Sin entered the world via our free will, and as such so did death, dissease, aging, etc..

As there is no supernatural agent guiding our actions, there is no free will. Therefore, an omnipotent god could have predicted everything that would happen when he created the world. Therefore, GOD created all those evils, and is totally responsible for them in a way that humanity never could be.

dmiclock wrote:

God hates sin.

Then why did he make it? And why doesn't he end it?

dmiclock wrote:

God is Just, and as such must punish those who break His laws.

God is punishing the people he made for behaving the way he made them behave. This isn't just, it's evil.

dmiclock wrote:

God Loves all of us, even though we're all sinners.

Then why does he torture us for eternity for doing exactly what he made us do?

dmiclock wrote:

When we choose to sin, we reject God and show contempt for all He has given us.

Explain to me again why god felt the need to put this "choice" before us, knowing full well that billions of us will fail the test and burn forever.

dmiclock wrote:

God calls us to repent from our sins and put our trust in Him. This means more and more, we strive to sin less and less.
As a result we become better people, not perfect people.

I don't view mindless obedience as an enhancement. Wouldn't it be preferable to develop our own sense of morality, so that we actually feel accountable for our actions and don't have license to do anything we want if it isn't addressed in the Manual?

dmiclock wrote:

Jesus came to preach the Gospel, and take the punishment that each one of us deserves for our sins.

How can Jesus take the punishment for my sins and why should I want him to? You call that morality?

dmiclock wrote:

The wages of sin is death.

I'm not noticing that christians or people who are especially nice or moral are any better at avoiding death than any of the rest of us. Please provide evidence that these people are still alive somewhere, or admit that this is yet another wishful fantasy based on faith, not reason.

dmiclock wrote:

Christianity is different in the respect that all other religions are "Work Righteous" meaning that the more good things one does, the better the chances he/she goes to heaven. We get heaven not because we're good people, but because we're wretched sinners who accept the fact that our sins are paid in full for through the blood of Jesus.

What a putrid, amoral philosophy. On one hand afflicted with guilt that nothing we do can assuage, on the other granted total license to sin in the most horrible ways possible without any true accountability at all. Truly damned if you do, damned if you don't in this life, with only an afterlife fantasy to look forward to. Is it any wonder that the worst criminals are often such ardent christians?

dmiclock wrote:

It may not make sense to yo, and you may not like it, but....
Have a Merry Christmas.

Thanks and same to you! I'm taking christmas back for the common people who created it and have maintained it in the face of the christian's ongoing attempt to hijack it with their own lame spin.

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown


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dmiclock wrote:Hello All, I

dmiclock wrote:
Hello All,

I wanted to thank you all for the opportunity to partake in some of the discussions recently, and I would be remiss if I didn't take an opportunity to spread God's Word.

Why would an omnipotent, omniscient, perfect god need an imperfect being to transmit a message for him?

What could you possibly tell me that this 'god' can't 'do' for himself, without any effort at all?!

Quote:

God created this universe and everything in it, including each one of us. Because He wanted to, and He could.

So this 'god' has desires.... but desires speak to need. And your 'god' cannot have any needs.

Quote:

We were created with free will,

Without our choice, obviously. And without having a say in it's parameters. Which renders the free will moot.

Let me explain why:

If your 'god' is omnipotent, omniscient, and the creator of the universe, then he creates all the parameters that influence choice. So this renders free will moot.

Quote:

a conscience that convicts us,

You're quoting some C.S. Lewis here, whether you realize it or not. The problem is that our conscious is inculcated by our parents and our society, not a 'god'. The proof is the fact that our conscious makes non moral demands of us, like "I shouldn't be caught in traffic'

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and the law written on each of our hearts.

Then why do you need to tell me?

Quote:

We were created to seek Him and reach out for Him - though He is not far from any of us.

We were born seeking out a mother, and perhaps a father, because without one we die. You theists confuse this instinct for 'god'

Quote:

Sin entered the world via our free will, and as such so did death, dissease, aging, etc..

You're referring the genesis account. Here's the problem: To sin requires intent.

But in the story, 'adam and eve' were created without knowledge of good and evil

So they could not understand the moral ramifications of disobeying.

So they could not sin.

So your 'god' made a mistake.

Which shows that there is no such god at all.

And this shows why the concept of original sin is so ignorant.

Quote:

God hates sin.

Why would such a powerful being hate anything, particularly something he created?

Hate is what humans do when they are hurt. How is your god 'hurt' by 'sin', particularly when he created it, and particularly when it would not matter to him at all.

Even we humans can learn to forgive any transgression against us.

God is Just, and as such must punish those who break His laws.

Quote:

God Loves all of us, even though we're all sinners.

Why are christian so impressed with this part of the myth? We all love someone, despite them being 'sinners'!

Quote:

When we choose to sin, we reject God and show contempt for all He has given us.

No. When we do something immoral, we do it out of a desire for short term gain over long term gain. We do it out of laziness or greed or envy... not to slight so imaginary god.

No 'god' could be slighted or harmed by imperfect beings acting imperfectly.

Quote:

God calls us to repent from our sins and put our trust in Him.

In order to trust, we must first experience. This 'god' could simply appear before us, and give us this opportunity.

Oddly enough, he doesn't.

Quote:

This means more and more, we strive to sin less and less.
As a result we become better people, not perfect people.

I hear this from christians, yet reality tells us that they are just as immoral as anyone else. In fact, christians usually concede this by responding "I'm not perfect, just saved" which is a concession that christians sin as much as anyone.

Quote:

Jesus came to preach the Gospel,

Odd that he didn't choose to do it today, when we have video cameras...

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and take the punishment that each one of us deserves for our sins.

No one else can stand in for my own responsibility. That's illogical.

And also, what punishment? Going to heaven in bliss for eternity, after having to go through one day of brief pain? Do you ever bother to think this one through?

Quote:

Christianity is different in the respect that all other religions are "Work Righteous" meaning that the more good things one does, the better the chances he/she goes to heaven. We get heaven not because we're good people, but because we're wretched sinners who accept the fact that our sins are paid in full for through the blood of Jesus.

Sounds like a nice excuse for doing whatever you want, which is pretty much how christians actually use this part of the myth... I'm not perfect, just forgiven!

Quote:

It may not make sense to you

It wouldn't make sense to you if you bothered to think about it.

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

Books on atheism.


dmiclock
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I find it very interesting

I find it very interesting for a group of people who claim to have an in-dept understanding of the Bible and all of the claims in it, that these concepts elude you. This leads me to the conclusion through logic and reason that most of you don’t really understand it at all. It is also apparent that the real debate is not about whether God exists, its whether or not He is a personal God that each of us can interact with.

With that said I’d like to take an opportunity to weed through the bushes real quick so we can all start over with a relatively simple slate.

Catholicism is not Christianity! Yes, I said it. The basic principles of this organization are contrary to Biblical teaching. It is at its core, man-made organized idol worshiping. That’s not to say that Catholics are bad people, just misguided about Biblical teaching.

Mormons are not Christians. This is simply a cult with no Biblical support.

Many televangelists, for the most part, do not portray a Biblical representation of Christianity, nor do they promote it well.

Many Eastern religions believe in re-incarnation which is usually dictated by how well one lived their current life. Problem is, is that something of a higher power needs to make those decisions and it can’t be yourself as they teach.

The Bible is the authoritative Word of God, inspired by God and written by men. It has the same message from page one all the way through to the end. Repent and put your trust in the Lord.

The Jews are God’s chosen people. Chosen to be an example to the rest of the world.

Everyone who has ever lived, and is living, has had the Law (Ten Commandments) written on their hearts. We know its wrong to lie, we know its wrong to kill, we know its wrong to commit adultery, we know its wrong to steal, etc... Why do we know this? Because our conscience convicts us every time we do it.

People who break these laws are separated from God. This is called sinning, or falling short of the mark.
Everyone falls short of the mark. You, me, everyone! We all sin. We all lie, we all steal, we all commit adultery in our hearts when we lust, we all commit murder in our hearts when we hate others for no reason, we all dishonor our mothers and fathers when we use foul language in public, we all make light of the Lord and His name. WE ALL SIN.

To reconcile ourselves with God, we must all REPENT and put our TRUST in the Lord. In doing so, we will be saved, not from going to Hell, but from His wrath because he is a just God.

Picture this: A man is on trial for murder and all the evidence absolutely proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that he committed the crime. Just before the sentence is handed down by the judge, the man pleads that yes he did kill, but for the most part he was a good person in life. He gave to the poor, he was a good father, he even went to church. He pleads to be let go. Would the judge be a good judge if he let the murderer go free? No, he would be a rotten judge, and each one of you would want him removed from the bench!

The God of the Bible is a Good God, a Loving God and a Just God. He must punish men for their sins. He must.

Also, the God of the Bible is not an old man in the sky with gray hair and long white robes pointing calamities down unto the Earth. God is something above anything we can ever imagine. We were created in his likeness - meaning that we were created with same attributes as Him (loving, caring, forgiving, inquisitive, etc..)

God knows that we as humans strive to become like that which we worship. That’s why we are commanded to have no other idols before Him (meaning in place of him). He is not served by human hands and does not exist in temples made by man out of stone.

He loves each one of us, though he doesn’t force any of us to love Him back. We can choose to, or not.

Throughout history it is apparent that man cannot overcome his sinful nature. Not only did God solidify the Law by having Moses write it down, he also sent a slew of prophets to maintain the message of repentance and trust.

Finally God said enough is enough. If they will not listen to me through my prophets and through the Law, I’ll show them myself.

God became man in the person of Jesus Christ.
He lived a sinless life which proved to all that it can be done.
He taught the same message: Repent and put your trust in the Lord.
He took the punishment for all of our sins by suffering and dying on the cross.
He rose from the dead to prove to everyone there, that he was indeed God.

Being a Christian Means:

You Accept Jesus as your personal savior, and admit that you are a sinner.
He died on that cross for you. He took the punishment you deserve for your sins.
You do your best to sin no more, and you put your trust in Him!

Will you be perfect: No!

God doesn’t send us to Hell, we send ourselves to Hell when we snub our noses at the Creator who gave us life. When we shake our puny little fists at him and proclaim that we know everything.

All the ways of the Lord are loving and faithful for those who keep the demands of His covenant.


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How can God be inquisitive

How can God be inquisitive and all knowing at the same time? Can you see the contradiction in your statement. Anyways, could you answer some of the questions asked to you instead of just preaching and saying things we have already heard. You say we do not understand logic, but it is you that does not. If you did, then you would provide proofs to validate your propositions on the bible being the word of God. So far you haven't even attempted to do so, which quite frankly is very disappointing.


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Ridin' spinnaz

Quote:
Everyone falls short of the mark. You, me, everyone! We all sin. We all lie, we all steal, we all commit adultery in our hearts when we lust, we all commit murder in our hearts when we hate others for no reason, we all dishonor our mothers and fathers when we use foul language in public, we all make light of the Lord and His name. WE ALL SIN.

To reconcile ourselves with God, we must all REPENT and put our TRUST in the Lord. In doing so, we will be saved, not from going to Hell, but from His wrath because he is a just God.

So I can do a whole bunch of bad things and ask for forgiveness from GOD at the last second?
Wow, forget asking for forgiveness from the people I hurt, and forget about feeling bad about doing bad things.
This sounds awesome!
___________________________________________________________

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God doesn’t send us to Hell, we send ourselves to Hell when we snub our noses at the Creator who gave us life.

Silly christians, snubbing noses at their creator.
But for me, it IS GOD'S CHOICE. Because he knows what it takes for me to believe, If he doesn't pull through his part of the deal and make me believe. Well, it's his fault is it?

I am curious as to why you think this is just, would you curse a faulty computer program? Even if you made it that way? It's the same thing with this "Just" god, he/it made me this way, he knows that I am a skeptic, he knows that his "Evidence" (I use it very lightly) doesn't add up for me. So he has to give me the proper evidence, or he made me to SUFFER FOR ALL ETERNATY, as in he made me in such a way that he would know I wouldn't believe but he will send to rot forever anyway.

That doesn't sound just to me.
I would have done it differently; but then again, if I was god, I wouldn't care if you believed or not. It would matter if you DID GOOD OR BAD THINGS!
__________________________________________________________

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When we shake our puny little fists at him and proclaim that we know everything.

I am curious as to who you are talking about, besides christians and muslims who think their book is the guide to everything.

I am still wondering as to how you can think ETERNAL TOURTURE is just?

You seem to have forgotten it the last time, But I understand, you were busy snubbing your nose at Horus and all the other true gods.

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dmiclock wrote:I find it

dmiclock wrote:
I find it very interesting for a group of people who claim to have an in-dept understanding of the Bible and all of the claims in it, that these concepts elude you.

And I find it intersting that you have to project out your own ignorance onto others, rather than consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Quote:

This leads me to the conclusion through logic and reason that most of you don’t really understand it at all.

Actually, just asserting that you've used logic doesn't make it so.... the reality is that you get refuted a lot, and that's too painful to deal with, so you'd rather pretend that the rest of the planet is wrong.

Quote:

With that said I’d like to take an opportunity to weed through the bushes real quick so we can all start over with a relatively simple slate.

Catholicism is not Christianity! Yes, I said it The basic principles of this organization are contrary to Biblical teaching.

You're wrong. To be a christian is to accept 'jesus' as the christ, your personal savior.

That's it.

And that makes catholics christians. As well as mormons.

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The Bible is the authoritative Word of God, inspired by God and written by men.

Sure. It makes sense that the omnibenevolent, omnipotent, omniscient king of kings would communicate a perfect messsage (that he could just implant directly into my head from birth)
into a book written by mostly anonymous people who didn't know enough to wash their hands after defecating.

Sure. By that logic, AT&T ought to communicate it's most important messages with tin cans and strings.

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Everyone falls short of the mark. You, me, everyone!

Short of the mark of perfection? Yes.

But that doesn't mean that people are worthless. It's not either perfect or worthless.

That's your error. Well, one of your errors.

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Picture this: A man is on trial for murder and all the evidence absolutely proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that he committed the crime. Just before the sentence is handed down by the judge, the man pleads that yes he did kill, but for the most part he was a good person in life. He gave to the poor, he was a good father, he even went to church. He pleads to be let go. Would the judge be a good judge if he let the murderer go free? No, he would be a rotten judge, and each one of you would want him removed from the bench!

The God of the Bible is a Good God, a Loving God and a Just God. He must punish men for their sins. He must.

The problem, again, is that your god is perfectly responsible for creating the concept of sin in the first place. He could have created a free will without sin, or he could have changed the nature of sin so that sinning didn't harm anyone else.

And, if you think about it, by your own logic, he should have. If we have a 'free will' to choose god or not, what role is there in my being able to harm others? Doesn't that even take away their free will?

So there is no sense is a free will to harm others at all. Yet your 'god' created such a possibility, knowing that people would be harmed. So he's perfectly responsible for whatever happens.

And the free will defense fails yet again.

Quote:

Finally God said enough is enough.

So he created a situation knowing full well it wouldn't work, and that he'd be frustrated by how badly it worked?

Do you spend time thinking through what you say? Would you create a situation purposely to frustrate and annoy yourself, while bringing irrepairable harm to others?!

I'm betting "no". I'm betting that you'd want to be nicer to beings that you are perfectly responsible for creating to be precisely as they are... I'm betting you'd be a good craftsman and not 'blame your tools', particularly when you made the tools yourself.

I'm betting that you wouldn't be so vicious and cruel to your own children, so why do you want to tell me that a loving god would be?

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If they will not listen to me through my prophets and through the Law, I’ll show them myself.

And he didn't know this beforehand? Who created these people? Who made them so that they wouldn't listen?

Isn't he perfectly responsible for his own creation, meaning that he's the very reason that they didn't listen!

And before you use the 'free will argument' again, consider:

this god WANTS people to listen

he then creates people who will frustrate his desire!

How does that make sense?

And before you rush in with the 'free will' nonsense, do yourself a favor and think about it first, before I beat that argument with a stick.

Quote:

Being a Christian Means:

You Accept Jesus as your personal savior, and admit that you are a sinner.

Well look at that. You just refuted yourself concerning catholics and mormons not being christians!

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

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dmiclock
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Actuually Todangst I'm not

Actually Todangst I'm not upset at all about being refutted. In fact I'm having some fun and I have learned alot. I do plan to address your comments, one by one.

So far I do realize I haven't done a very good job of it.

You like that word 'projection'.

Question: Who are you inferior to?

All the ways of the Lord are loving and faithful for those who keep the demands of His covenant.


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dmiclock wrote:Actuually

dmiclock wrote:
Actuually Todangst I'm not upset at all about being refutted. In fact I'm having some fun and I have learned alot.

Good. I'm glad to hear it. All I have to go on is what you write, and what you write things like this:

dmiclock wrote:

I find it very interesting for a group of people who claim to have an in-dept understanding of the Bible and all of the claims in it, that these concepts elude you.

You sound like you're trying to dismiss what others are saying.

Quote:

I do plan to address your comments, one by one.

So far i do realize I haven't done a very good job of it.

I'm glad you see that. Here's the reason:

It's not that I'm necessarily smarter than you, or that I have better arguments. It's that you're riding a very bad argument, and this puts you at a great disadvantage. Which is why this can get frustrating for the theist.... you've got years of ideas that you swallowed half digested, and you're being asked to examine a great deal all at once.

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

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With reagrd to the 'Created

With reagrd to the 'Created That Way' argument:

No, we were not created as sinners, we choose to sin. Why would God create mindless robots that woship him no matter what?

You see the basic point that I think y'all are missing is the fact that we were given the gift of life. You know that thing back in the day where molecules just decided by themselves that they would self replicate and stuff........becasue they thought it might be fun!

God thought it would be great to bring us into existence. Why? I don't know, but I sure do cherish the gift and give Him thanks everyday for it.

All the ways of the Lord are loving and faithful for those who keep the demands of His covenant.


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dmiclock wrote:With reagrd

dmiclock wrote:
With reagrd to the 'Created That Way' argument:

No, we were not created as sinners, we choose to sin.

Sigh, you're just not paying attention.

Please try harder. It helps to quote what I say.

Your god is the omnipotent, omniscient creator the universe. He creates everything. This includes the concept of free will, and sin. He didn't need to create either. He is fully responsible for both.

Your god controls the environment you live in and he creates your character/personality. He knows both perfectly, and he knows what will lead you to sin and what will not. He controls every parameter. This god creates every single parameter of existence that shapes you, your environment, including the limits of yoru free will. This means this god is necessarily perfectly responsible for everything that happens.

Please go and read my other posts and work on this some more.

Your god creates the limits of free will, what we can do and what we can't do. He could have created a 'free will' differently, one where people did not suffer in hell. He need not have created such people at all. You're not thinking this through.

Quote:

Why would God create mindless robots that woship him no matter what?

1) That's precisely what he did do in genesis chapter 2. He creates adam and eve without knowledge of good and evil, and demands that they not pursuse the knowledge.

This makes them ignorant robots.

2) Can you show me chapter and verse where god says 'i doth not desire robots"?

3) What's wrong with being a blissful robot anyway?

Quote:

You see the basic point that I think y'all are missing

Please don't complain about anyone else missing anything.

Quote:

is the fact that we were given the gift of life.

you're begging the question.

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

Books on atheism.


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dmiclock wrote:With reagrd

dmiclock wrote:
With reagrd to the 'Created That Way' argument:

No, we were not created as sinners, we choose to sin.

Where did the potential to sin come from?

Quote:
Why would God create mindless robots that woship him no matter that?

Because according to your bible, he is a jealous god (Exodus 20:5).

Quote:
You see the basic point that I think y'all are missing is the fact that we were given the gift of life. You know that thing back in the day where molecules just decided by themselves that they would self replicate and stuff........becasue they thought it might be fun!

No, what you're missing is that the Flying Spaghetti Monster gave you the gift of life.

You clearly don't know the difference between molecules and unicellular bacteria. Actually maybe your god decided to just toy around with people because he thought it would be fun.

Quote:
God thought it would be great to bring us into existence. Why? I don't know, but I sure do cherish the gift and give Him thanks everyday for it.

Why not thank Brahma instead? Your god is really no different from any of the Greek or Hindu gods.


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Todangst All the arguments

Todangst

All the arguments you made above are good ones. Why wouldn't God just create a world where eveything is perfect, where there was no sin, no dissease, no death, and where he shows himself to us daily.

Well we had that, and we screwed it up. Sin screwed it up for all of us. Did God know there was sin, yes, but we still had the choice to avoid it. Even if God knows everything ahead of time, that doesn't mean he has to intervene everytime we stumble.

See right now my destiny is in my hands. I can sit here in my kitchen and type this message, or go out drinking and driving, or go commit a hanus crime. The choice is mine whether or not God knows ahead of time or not.

And for those who keep the demands of his covenant, he will be a part of their lives. for those that don't, oh well. They have no excuse or deniability becasue evidence for God is everywhere.

And you are saved by repentance and trust in Christ. Catholic doctrine is that you're saved by works, and they believe in pergatory which is not Biblical. Repentance is optional because of the confessional.

Again the Biblical message from page 1 - End is Repentance and trust in God.

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Quote:You clearly don't know

Quote:
You clearly don't know the difference between molecules and unicellular bacteria.

Here we go again, just like singularity issue. Comparing Unicellular bacteria to molucules is like comparing a Ferrari to the Flintstone's Car.

Why would molecules decide to self replicate. And why can't we re-create this in a lab. We have all of the requirements.

Did the molucules get together and vote on it. What would the evolutionary purpose be for this process? Oh wait, we can't talk about evolution until we actually have life. Right?

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Quote:Well we had that, and

Quote:
Well we had that, and we screwed it up.

They had it, THEY screwed it up, I get punished.

It's stupid "Sins of the father" BS.

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noor wrote:Actually maybe

noor wrote:
Actually maybe your god decided to just toy around with people because he thought it would be fun.

What you're doing is projecting the attributes of man onto God.

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Ophios wrote:They had it,

Ophios wrote:
They had it, THEY screwed it up, I get punished.

Don't be mad Ophios, trust in God. I see the works of the Lord everyday. I have never, never, never, not gotten what I prayed for.

You'll say that's delusional, you'll say its coincidence, and that's OK.

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Quote:People who break these

Quote:
People who break these laws are separated from God. This is called sinning, or falling short of the mark.
Everyone falls short of the mark. You, me, everyone! We all sin. We all lie, we all steal, we all commit adultery in our hearts when we lust, we all commit murder in our hearts when we hate others for no reason, we all dishonor our mothers and fathers when we use foul language in public, we all make light of the Lord and His name. WE ALL SIN.

That is just twisted. How could you find salvation in a concept that requires you to beat yourself up like this? I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you are not really a murderer or an adulterer. How could you possibly be expected to think of yourself as such?

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dmiclock wrote:Quote:You

dmiclock wrote:
Quote:
You clearly don't know the difference between molecules and unicellular bacteria.

Here we go again, just like singularity issue. Comparing Unicellular bacteria to molucules is like comparing a Ferrari to the Flintstone's Car.

Why would molecules decide to self replicate. And why can't we re-create this in a lab. We have all of the requirements.

Did the molucules get together and vote on it. What would the evolutionary purpose be for this process? Oh wait, we can't talk about evolution until we actually have life. Right?

You just clearly showed how little, if anything, you know about science. Bacteria did not "decide" to reproduce asexually. It's a natural process that evolved over time. Go read a couple of biology textbooks and get back to us.


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dmiclock wrote:noor

dmiclock wrote:
noor wrote:
Actually maybe your god decided to just toy around with people because he thought it would be fun.

What you're doing is projecting the attributes of man onto God.

How? I also must point out the circular reasoning in your previous argument. You first assume that god gifted us with life, then you look and say, "See, I'm alive because of god." That's begging the question.

I'm waiting for your response to my question, "Why did god give us the potential to sin?" You simply pick and choose one or two parts of my reply and then act like it rebutted the rest of the post.


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Quote:That is just twisted.

Quote:
[Immaculate Wrote:]That is just twisted.

No its not, its true. You see most people don't consider themselves sinners. Most will say they are good people.

Are you a good person? Compared to who?

Do you lie?
Do you steal?
Do you harbor hate for anyone unjustly?
Have you committed adultery?
Do you take the Lord's name in vain?

That's 5 of the 10. How'd you do? Lets play IF. If the Bible is true and If you were to die tonight would you be guilty or innocent? Would you go to heaven or hell.

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noor wrote: I'm waiting for

noor wrote:
I'm waiting for your response to my question, "Why did god give us the potential to sin?" You simply pick and choose one or two parts of my reply and then act like it rebutted the rest of the post.

Because God wants fellowship with those who want fellowship with Him. He created us and let it roll. For those who listen to their hearts and keep the Ten, you get eternal life, for those that don't. Oh well.

Hell is not a systematic torturing factory run by God. Its like an accountant who gets 20 years for embezzlement. He gets thrown into the joint with the harshest of criminals. He's gonna have a rough time!

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dmiclock wrote:noor wrote:

dmiclock wrote:
noor wrote:
I'm waiting for your response to my question, "Why did god give us the potential to sin?" You simply pick and choose one or two parts of my reply and then act like it rebutted the rest of the post.

Because God wants fellowship with those who want fellowship with Him. He created us and let it roll. For those who listen to their hearts and keep the Ten, you get eternal life, for those that don't. Oh well.

So god favors only those who fall at his feet? Isn't that egotist? Is worship some kind of self-gratificating ego boost he so desperately needs?

Quote:
Hell is not a systematic torturing factory run by God. Its like an accountant who gets 20 years for embezzlement. He gets thrown into the joint with the harshest of criminals. He's gonna have a rough time!

The difference between hell and the 20-year-sentence is that hell is for an eternity. Endless doom for a finite sin is infinitely injust. No god would allow scorching forever, for an eternity, all because man committed a sin. Do you not realize how injust putting people in an eternal hell for a limited sin is?


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dmiclock wrote:Why would

dmiclock wrote:
Why would molecules decide to self replicate. And why can't we re-create this in a lab. We have all of the requirements.

Ahem. We can and we have.

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The AATE replicates by

The AATE replicates by attracting to one of its ends anester molecule, and to its other end an amino adenosine molecule. These molecules react to form another AATE. The "parent" and "child" AATE molecules then break apart and can go on to build still more AATE molecules.

This is simply two chemical reactions wher the end result is the same as one of the constituents from the beginning. Like going from Ice to Water to Ice.

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Insidium Profundis

Insidium Profundis wrote:
Ahem. We can and we have.[/url]

FYI - Unless you were on the research team, don't take liberties for other people's work.

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noor wrote:The difference

noor wrote:
The difference between hell and the 20-year-sentence is that hell is for an eternity. Endless doom for a finite sin is infinitely injust.

No, its perfectly Just! People know the laws, and yet they break them in spite of God's mercy and grace.

Yeah, they should go to heaven! [Sarcastic Tone]

We make choices everyday to either sin, or not. What do you choose.

Fight the Good Fight Every Moment, Everyday.

All the ways of the Lord are loving and faithful for those who keep the demands of His covenant.


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Question for Todangst, Noor

Question for Todangst, Noor and Insidium:

I can't think for one moment that any of you participated in this ridiculous 'Blasphemy Challenge' that Sapient has going on.

Am I right?

All the ways of the Lord are loving and faithful for those who keep the demands of His covenant.


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dmiclock wrote:With reagrd

dmiclock wrote:
With reagrd to the 'Created That Way' argument:

No, we were not created as sinners, we choose to sin. Why would God create mindless robots that woship him no matter what?

Dmiclock,

This was just discussed on an earlier thread.

todangst wrote:

1) Please cite the bible where it says that god didn't want puppets. I just want to see if you can do it.

2) Why is it so bad to be a blissful robot? Isn't this precisely what your god created in genesis? Adam and eve were created without knowledge of good and evil, and even forbidden to learn it! If they listened, wouldn't they be puppets? Just following along without knowing why?

This is true. Wasn't Adam and Eve before the fall in perfect grace, and wouldn't that make them mindless robots?


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dmiclock wrote:noor

dmiclock wrote:
noor wrote:
The difference between hell and the 20-year-sentence is that hell is for an eternity. Endless doom for a finite sin is infinitely injust.

No, its perfectly Just! People know the laws, and yet they break them in spite of God's mercy and grace.

Yeah, they should go to heaven! [Sarcastic Tone]

What about those who never even heard of Christianity? Your god punishes them too?

Quote:
We make choices everyday to either sin, or not. What do you choose.

Fight the Good Fight Every Moment, Everyday.

Either god plans the future himself, which would mean he preplanned for us to sin, or being all-knowing, he knows what will happen in the future. He knew people would sin and be sent to endless punishment, but he still created them?

You, by rejecting the all-merciful Flying Spaghetti Monster who created you, are going against his holy law. He will damn you since you consciously rejected him. What do you choose, to honor the FSM or sin against his holy appendage?


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Kemono wrote:Hi, dmiclock!

Kemono wrote:
Hi, dmiclock! Could you explain to me some things about Christianity that do not seem to make sense?

First, where does morality come from? Clearly human and animal morality is the product of evolution...

Morality comes from the Law (Ten Commandements) written on your heart. The knowledge of right and wrong is your conscience, its hard wired into us by God. When we break the Law, our conscience convicts us. We learn from that and do it no more.

Clearly...., from what data? However, there is a good book on the subject, I'll get the name later.

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dmiclock wrote:Question for

dmiclock wrote:
Question for Todangst, Noor and Insidium:

I can't think for one moment that any of you participated in this ridiculous 'Blasphemy Challenge' that Sapient has going on.

Am I right?

I didn't participate. Why, I will not say, but I don't think it's ridiculous to speak out against beliefs that have infiltrated the minds of people throughout the ages and caused killings in the name of god.


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noor wrote: ....beliefs that

noor wrote:
....beliefs that have infiltrated the minds of people throughout the ages and caused killings in the name of god.

The crusades were a response to Islam aggression.
The entire secular world hates the Jews.
Secular humanism has killed more people than any entity ever.

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Todansgt: Bible verse where

Todansgt:

Bible verse where God said he doesn't want mindless robots:
Acts 17: 24-28.

Noor:

Question about people who never heard about Jesus:

Everyone is under the Law and will be judged by the Law. Those that live according to the law are a law unto themselves. There are two premises to this:

1. We have no excuse to deny the existance of God becasue of Creation. Our basic intellect tells us that what is seen cannot have been made by what is visible!

2. When our conscience convicts us, we repent.

Therefore we fullfill the requirements and do exactly what Jesus said to do.

Voila, saved!

All the ways of the Lord are loving and faithful for those who keep the demands of His covenant.


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dmiclock wrote:noor wrote:

dmiclock wrote:
noor wrote:
....beliefs that have infiltrated the minds of people throughout the ages and caused killings in the name of god.

The crusades were a response to Islam aggression.
The entire secular world hates the Jews.
Secular humanism has killed more people than any entity ever.

Hitler, a Catholic, killed the Jews "in the name of the Lord." Also, what about this article? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism#Christian_nationalist_groups_with_terrorist_cells

http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismmyths/p/AtheismKills.htm


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noor wrote:You, by rejecting

noor wrote:
You, by rejecting the all-merciful Flying Spaghetti Monster who created you, are going against his holy law. He will damn you since you consciously rejected him. What do you choose, to honor the FSM or sin against his holy appendage?

What does this mean?

Its simple:

Obey the Ten Commandments to a T.
If you can't, repent and put your trust in the Savior who died and paid your fine.

Doesn't mean you can keep on sinning, means that the more you call to mind and stop the sins you do, the less you will do them.

I don't walk around all day with burdensome guilt like most think. Christians are more free than you think.

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noor wrote: Hitler, a

noor wrote:
Hitler, a Catholic, killed the Jews "in the name of the Lord."

You don't even come close to knowing what you're talking about here. Not even close. All religious expression was banned under Nazi Control and all the top leaders of the NSDAP actively engaged in the occult.

If you want to go down this road, open another Forum.

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Quote: Question about people

Quote:

Question about people who never heard about Jesus:

Everyone is under the Law and will be judged by the Law. Those that live according to the law are a law unto themselves. There are two premises to this:

1. We have no excuse to deny the existance of God becasue of Creation. Our basic intellect tells us that what is seen cannot have been made by what is visible!

That's begging the question, a logical fallacy. You assume your god created the world, then you say, "It's here, which proves what I assumed." I could also say, "Brahma created the world, so we don't have any excuse to deny his existence. It's obvious he exists since he created the world and the world clearly exists."

Quote:
2. When our conscience convicts us, we repent.

Therefore we fullfill the requirements and do exactly what Jesus said to do.

Voila, saved!

Really? Interesting, I was agnostic atheist for most of my life, but I never felt anything close to my conscience telling me to repent. Also, are you talking about repenting in this life or after we die?


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Hitler's hatred for Jews

Hitler's hatred for Jews stem directly from his experieinces in the trenches of WWI.


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dmiclock wrote:Question for

dmiclock wrote:
Question for Todangst, Noor and Insidium:

I can't think for one moment that any of you participated in this ridiculous 'Blasphemy Challenge' that Sapient has going on.

Am I right?

I have not participated in it. I probably will, though, because you get a free DVD.

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.


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dmiclock wrote:noor

dmiclock wrote:
noor wrote:
You, by rejecting the all-merciful Flying Spaghetti Monster who created you, are going against his holy law. He will damn you since you consciously rejected him. What do you choose, to honor the FSM or sin against his holy appendage?

What does this mean?

Its simple:

Obey the Ten Commandments to a T.
If you can't, repent and put your trust in the Savior who died and paid your fine.

Doesn't mean you can keep on sinning, means that the more you call to mind and stop the sins you do, the less you will do them.

I don't walk around all day with burdensome guilt like most think. Christians are more free than you think.

I was giving you an example of what you sound like.

What makes you think Jesus died for man's sins in the first place? Please don't quote the bible here; it's like saying the Greek gods exist since they are mentioned in the ancient Greek epics.


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noor wrote: I was agnostic

noor wrote:
I was agnostic atheist for most of my life...

Really,

So for most of your life you have had no knowldege of the fact that you don't beleive in God.

Wow. Now that's where I wanna be! And I'm the one with the viral infection.

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dmiclock wrote: Really, So

dmiclock wrote:

Really,

So for most of your life you have had no knowldege of the fact that you don't beleive in God.

Wow. Now that's where I wanna be! And I'm the one with the viral infection.

I have the feeling you're trying to be funny. Or maybe you really don't understand what an agnostic atheist is. Maybe you should read Am I Agnostic or Atheist? on this site.


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dmiclock wrote:noor wrote:

dmiclock wrote:
noor wrote:
Hitler, a Catholic, killed the Jews "in the name of the Lord."

You don't even come close to knowing what you're talking about here. Not even close. All religious expression was banned under Nazi Control and all the top leaders of the NSDAP actively engaged in the occult.

If you want to go down this road, open another Forum.

From Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gott_Mit_Uns

Gott Mit Uns "God is With Us"

During Hitler's reign, the traditional crest was replaced by the Nazi swastika and eagle, however the religious inscription remained unaltered. It is thought that part of the reason the Nazi government retained this motto was an attempt on the part of Hitler to retain the support of Christians, who comprised the overwhelming majority of German citizens.


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dmiclock wrote:noor wrote: I

dmiclock wrote:
noor wrote:
I was agnostic atheist for most of my life...

Really,

So for most of your life you have had no knowldege of the fact that you don't beleive in God.

Wow. Now that's where I wanna be! And I'm the one with the viral infection.

I think you need to read the "Am I Agnostic Or Atheist?" article on this site. I didn't believe in god, but I was a doubter when it came to his existence. I grew positive atheist over a year or two though.


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dmiclock wrote:

dmiclock wrote:

This is simply two chemical reactions wher the end result is the same as one of the constituents from the beginning. Like going from Ice to Water to Ice.

It is self-replication. Of course it is a chemical reaction. What other form of reaction would you expect when dealing with self-replicating molecules?

Note: the reaction you describe is a physical one, not a chemical one. The chemical structure of H2O does not change when water turns to ice or vice versa. The reaction is a physical one in which the relationships of nearby H2O molecules are modified.

Quote:
FYI - Unless you were on the research team, don't take liberties for other people's work.

Normally I do not like to reply to posts that do not further the discussion and are mere jabs at another poster. However, in this case I will. I used the word "we" because you did in the part I quoted, to refer to the greater scientific community. In the interest of mutual politeness, please refrain from making posts like that in the future.

dmiclock wrote:
Why would molecules decide to self replicate. And why can't we re-create this in a lab. We have all of the requirements.

Insidium Profundis wrote:
Ahem. We can and we have.

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.