Misguided?

rationalchristian
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Misguided?

I was an athiest for 33 years. Now, I know you'll all come out of the woodwork and blast me... and that's cool. But, A TRUE athiest wouldn't care about the silly "war" against Easter, Christianity, etc. He/she would shrug his/her shoulders... chuckle it off and get back to his/her day. You people must just be a bunch of liberal antagonists with a chip on your shoulder. What? not popular enough in high school so now you gotta show everyone how brillient you are by starting a conflict against what are generally a tolorant, loving group of people? When I was an athiest.... I had no problem with Christianity. You cannot convince me that you folks don't have another agenda. And why the silly 666 referneces? Seems a little childish doesn't it? You don't believe in Satan but you adopt satanic references and symbols? Ooohhh you got us! Also... all you're doing is strengthening the Christian resolve! Sneaking dvds into churches? Are you serious? This is the best you can do? You've wasted how much $$$ on this? Please, get a hobby. Get a girlfriend... something. Or, check into what a real athiest is. You wouldn't be wasting your time and energy on a futile website if you really are one. Oh yeah... have a Happy Easter! One day... every knee will bow to Jesus Christ. Please... check into it for real. It's not you, the person reading this that makes me a little angry... it's the cause. I was once where you are right now. Peace guys... and have a great day. Eye-wink


Equilibrium
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Misguided?

Yeah like Christians give us the same treatment.

The hacking attempt on the war on easter site was a perfect example.

Atheists - exercise free speech with a completely legal expression of ideas.
Christians - shut the heathens down.

"Character is higher than intellect... A great soul will be strong to live, as well as to think."
-Ralph Waldo Emerson


rationalchristian
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Misguided?

It's because this site... and it's cause SERVE'S NO PURPOSE!! Grow Up!


Gravity
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Misguided?

Equilibrium wrote:
Yeah like Christians give us the same treatment.

The hacking attempt on the war on easter site was a perfect example.

Atheists - exercise free speech with a completely legal expression of ideas.
Christians - shut the heathens down.


Of all the responses you could have given him...

you give him... this one?

Seems like some of you are reaching for ammunition. Don't feel like you need it so much!

I'm a dipshit.


rationalchristian
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Misguided?

Gravity wrote:
Equilibrium wrote:
Yeah like Christians give us the same treatment.

The hacking attempt on the war on easter site was a perfect example.

Atheists - exercise free speech with a completely legal expression of ideas.
Christians - shut the heathens down.


Of all the responses you could have given him...

you give him... this one?

Seems like some of you are reaching for ammunition. Don't feel like you need it so much!

See, I respect that response. Not all Christians are fundamentalist freakshows.

Thou shalt not have no idea <[[[><


Equilibrium
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Misguided?

rationalchristian wrote:
It's because this site... and it's cause SERVE'S NO PURPOSE!! Grow Up!

Is that even a sentence?

"Character is higher than intellect... A great soul will be strong to live, as well as to think."
-Ralph Waldo Emerson


Equilibrium
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Misguided?

Gravity wrote:
Equilibrium wrote:
Yeah like Christians give us the same treatment.

The hacking attempt on the war on easter site was a perfect example.

Atheists - exercise free speech with a completely legal expression of ideas.
Christians - shut the heathens down.


Of all the responses you could have given him...

you give him... this one?

Seems like some of you are reaching for ammunition. Don't feel like you need it so much!

I don't see anything wrong with my response, and no-one has been able to formulate an argument against it, it's perfectly valid.

We aren't shutting down churches.

"Character is higher than intellect... A great soul will be strong to live, as well as to think."
-Ralph Waldo Emerson


Equilibrium
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Misguided?

rationalchristian wrote:
Gravity wrote:
Equilibrium wrote:
Yeah like Christians give us the same treatment.

The hacking attempt on the war on easter site was a perfect example.

Atheists - exercise free speech with a completely legal expression of ideas.
Christians - shut the heathens down.


Of all the responses you could have given him...

you give him... this one?

Seems like some of you are reaching for ammunition. Don't feel like you need it so much!

See, I respect that response. Not all Christians are fundamentalist freakshows.

True, but it's the moderate christians that are being irrational AND unfaithful. At least fundies are being true to what they believe.

Sam Harris describes this very well.

"Character is higher than intellect... A great soul will be strong to live, as well as to think."
-Ralph Waldo Emerson


rationalchristian
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Misguided?

I'm completely true to what I believe. I don't push my beliefs on anyone unless they ask. I believe in Christianity because I truly feel that through exhaustive study, I proved its existance to myself. I came to my own conclusions. I believe that most christians act completely on faith alone. Because mom said there is a God... then I believe. I came through a completely different door. I don't judge. I can dissagree, but I don't judge... probably because I was once an athiest. I respect an athiest far more than a "Sunday Christian". At least they are true to what they believe (or don't believe). But to attack Christianity as a whole... is pointless and serves no "rational" purpose. Attack the individual based on his or her behavior... not the ideal.

Thou shalt not have no idea <[[[><


Gravity
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Misguided?

Equilibrium wrote:
Gravity wrote:
Equilibrium wrote:
Yeah like Christians give us the same treatment.

The hacking attempt on the war on easter site was a perfect example.

Atheists - exercise free speech with a completely legal expression of ideas.
Christians - shut the heathens down.


Of all the responses you could have given him...

you give him... this one?

Seems like some of you are reaching for ammunition. Don't feel like you need it so much!

I don't see anything wrong with my response, and no-one has been able to formulate an argument against it, it's perfectly valid.

We aren't shutting down churches.


Easy.

Fallacy- Hasty generalization.

And the whole Tu Quoque fallacy too.

There are atheist hackers out there hacking Christian websites- doesn't mean atheists are wrong in general. As well, just because a christian group does something, doesn't mean you are justified to do it too.

Perfectly valid? Care to prove it valid? Do you... know how to?

I'm a dipshit.


Gravity
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Misguided?

rationalchristian wrote:
I'm completely true to what I believe. I don't push my beliefs on anyone unless they ask. I believe in Christianity because I truly feel that through exhaustive study, I proved its existance to myself. I came to my own conclusions. I believe that most christians act completely on faith alone. Because mom said there is a God... then I believe. I came through a completely different door. I don't judge. I can dissagree, but I don't judge... probably because I was once an athiest. I respect an athiest far more than a "Sunday Christian". At least they are true to what they believe (or don't believe). But to attack Christianity as a whole... is pointless and serves no "rational" purpose. Attack the individual based on his or her behavior... not the ideal.

You can attack people and attack ideals. That being said, this is not an "attack" as in "ad hom." Sometimes it is necessary to attack ideals, in a social sense. Sometimes it is necessary to attack people, when they are making ideas on their own. Religion often connects people and makes them agree. Generally, and as long as you do not generalize, particular persons of a religion do agree, thus attacking there stance is attacking every other stance that comes to the same conclusion through the same means. All in all, I will wait for somebody else to quote snippets from your stance to take it out of context or some other redherring, before I defend you, and in the defense, I will also destroy you.

I'm a dipshit.


Equilibrium
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Misguided?

Gravity wrote:
Equilibrium wrote:
Gravity wrote:
Equilibrium wrote:
Yeah like Christians give us the same treatment.

The hacking attempt on the war on easter site was a perfect example.

Atheists - exercise free speech with a completely legal expression of ideas.
Christians - shut the heathens down.


Of all the responses you could have given him...

you give him... this one?

Seems like some of you are reaching for ammunition. Don't feel like you need it so much!

I don't see anything wrong with my response, and no-one has been able to formulate an argument against it, it's perfectly valid.

We aren't shutting down churches.


Easy.

Fallacy- Hasty generalization.

And the whole Tu Quoque fallacy too.

There are atheist hackers out there hacking Christian websites- doesn't mean atheists are wrong in general. As well, just because a christian group does something, doesn't mean you are justified to do it too.

Perfectly valid? Care to prove it valid? Do you... know how to?

If I was generalizing, I would have said this

All Atheists - exercise free speech with a completely legal expression of ideas.
All Christians - shut the heathens down

As to the Tu Quoque thing, the Christians are the ones that are trying to see "moral equivalence" in the hacking attempt. It wasn't a "two wrongs make a right" statement, it was a "practice what you preach."

"Character is higher than intellect... A great soul will be strong to live, as well as to think."
-Ralph Waldo Emerson


Equilibrium
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Misguided?

rationalchristian wrote:
I'm completely true to what I believe. I don't push my beliefs on anyone unless they ask. I believe in Christianity because I truly feel that through exhaustive study, I proved its existance to myself. I came to my own conclusions. I believe that most christians act completely on faith alone. Because mom said there is a God... then I believe. I came through a completely different door. I don't judge. I can dissagree, but I don't judge... probably because I was once an athiest. I respect an athiest far more than a "Sunday Christian". At least they are true to what they believe (or don't believe). But to attack Christianity as a whole... is pointless and serves no "rational" purpose. Attack the individual based on his or her behavior... not the ideal.

I would agree with you, but we must move into the political and historical realm to further talk about this. The regular sunday christian has been indoctrinated on an equal level to an islamic suicide bomber, but with (thankfully) less destructive material. However, the bible does support almost the same level of violence and prejudice that islam does, only people like Pat Robertson have the balls to try and do something with that (The aforementioned idiot suggested bombing the US state Dept).

Also, the idea that when you sin, you can confess and be completely forgiven is undoubtedly immortal and dangerous. I know some of you say that you can't repeatedly commit crimes and get away with it, but the majority believe that they can.

I could go on, but people like Brian Fleming and Rook here are more knowledgable

"Character is higher than intellect... A great soul will be strong to live, as well as to think."
-Ralph Waldo Emerson


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Equilibrium wrote:

If I was generalizing, I would have said this

All Atheists - exercise free speech with a completely legal expression of ideas.
All Christians - shut the heathens down

As to the Tu Quoque thing, the Christians are the ones that are trying to see "moral equivalence" in the hacking attempt. It wasn't a "two wrongs make a right" statement, it was a "practice what you preach."


Um...

Atheists are stupid.

Tell me that doesn't piss you off?
Well of course it's valid. Some atheists are stupid.

If I meant all atheists, I would have said:

All atheists are stupid.

Do you see my point here?

And the Tu quoque was a "practice what you preach" statement? Well, then why are you validating your position, "taste what you preach?"

I'm a dipshit.


Equilibrium
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Misguided?

Gravity wrote:
Equilibrium wrote:

If I was generalizing, I would have said this

All Atheists - exercise free speech with a completely legal expression of ideas.
All Christians - shut the heathens down

As to the Tu Quoque thing, the Christians are the ones that are trying to see "moral equivalence" in the hacking attempt. It wasn't a "two wrongs make a right" statement, it was a "practice what you preach."


Um...

Atheists are stupid.

Tell me that doesn't piss you off?
Well of course it's valid. Some atheists are stupid.

If I meant all atheists, I would have said:

All atheists are stupid.

Except I didn't say all christians are stupid, there is such thing as context. I think you are purposely misinterpreting me.

Quote:
And the Tu quoque was a "practice what you preach" statement? Well, then why are you validating your position, "taste what you preach?"

Because apparently you need further explanation.

"Character is higher than intellect... A great soul will be strong to live, as well as to think."
-Ralph Waldo Emerson


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Ideology vs. implementation

The main problem I have with the DVD is that it becomes far too emotional. The first half was great. It was clear, concise and presented some good information. I am very open to that. That having been said, the second half goes way downhill. The facts start slowing down and the smear campaign begins. If something is true, does it really matter how poorly it is implemented by ignorant people?

It is true that many Christians are very uneducated and know very little about the religion they tout.

It is true that many Athiests know more about Chrisianity than most Christians.

But does pointing out the shortcomings of Christians make the religion itself less true?

My point here is not to prove or disprove Christianity. It's simply to point out that what Christians have done, are doing, and will do in the future has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether there is any validity to Christianity.
If you want to destroy someone's faith in God, don't point out that stupid people have done stupid things in the name of God. Instead, try to rationally disprove His existence.

If that doesn't work, you could call them names and say things like "I'm rubber and you're glue, whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you". Or better yet: "I know you are, but what am I?"


Sapient
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Re: Misguided?

Nice screenname "RationalChristian," it reminds me of "DumbGenius" "HotColdPerson" or "GayStraightGuy."

rationalchristian wrote:
I was an athiest for 33 years. Now, I know you'll all come out of the woodwork and blast me... and that's cool.

We'll "all" blast you? You "know" that?

Quote:
But, A TRUE athiest wouldn't care about the silly "war" against Easter, Christianity, etc. He/she would shrug his/her shoulders... chuckle it off and get back to his/her day.

What is a "TRUE" atheist? And how is it different than the dictionary defines "atheist?"

Here, use this definition from the Oxford English Dictionary:

atheism Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of a god.

Quote:
You people must just be a bunch of liberal antagonists with a chip on your shoulder.

We "must" be liberal? Oh shit... I'll tell the conservatives of this forum that you say they aren't here. :roll:

Quote:
What? not popular enough in high school so now you gotta show everyone how brillient you are by starting a conflict against what are generally a tolorant, loving group of people?

What didn't learn spelling in school, so you gotta come here and whine about a bunch of people who are more rational than you? All ad hom volleys aside, what is so wrong with giving someone a movie as a gift? What's wrong with helping people overcome the mythical beliefs that were forced upon them?

Quote:
When I was an athiest.... I had no problem with Christianity. You cannot convince me that you folks don't have another agenda.

So you admit to being close minded, interesting.

Quote:
And why the silly 666 referneces? Seems a little childish doesn't it?

We're mocking it. Yeah, it may seem a little childish, but then again you are acting exactly that way in your post, so I suppose it's warranted. We're speaking in your terms, so you "get it"

Quote:
You don't believe in Satan but you adopt satanic references and symbols? Ooohhh you got us!

:twisted:

Quote:
Also... all you're doing is strengthening the Christian resolve!

That's "all" we're doing eh? Seems we did a good job of getting you to come here and look foolish as well... shit that's two things we're doing now! Oh no... you we're wrong!!

Quote:
Sneaking dvds into churches?

Yeah.

Quote:
Are you serious?

Yeah.

Quote:
This is the best you can do?

No. Point me to where we said it was.

Quote:
You've wasted how much $$$ on this?

A lot. And we think you're worth it. You're mental freedom is priceless, you're open mind and ability to question everything is important in this one life you get.

Quote:
Please, get a hobby.

Where did anyone say they didn't. I have plenty of hobbies, Brian Flemming does as well. Ending Christianity actually happens to be one of them, how ironic.

Seems as if you are trying to deter us, as you fear we'll actually end this mind disease you've succumb to.

Quote:
Get a girlfriend... something.

I live with a hot heathen girl, who I get to have hot premarital sex with all the time. Yeah, no guilt as I'm not burdened with a mythical belief that tells me it's wrong. There's also no hypocrisy there, like most of the Christians who say they believe one way yet act another. (ie our Christian President going to war - thou shalt not kill)

Quote:
check into what a real athiest is.

Once again, please tell me how the dictionary is wrong:

Use this definition from the Oxford English Dictionary:

atheism Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of a god.

Quote:
You wouldn't be wasting your time and energy on a futile website if you really are one.

And once again tell me how the dictionary definion excludes all atheists who have futile websites.

Quote:
Oh yeah... have a Happy Easter!

Thanks Mr. Insincere, same to you!

Quote:
One day... every knee will bow to Jesus Christ.

Or maybe it's Vishnu. How do you know? There just isn't any evidence for either.

Quote:
Please... check into it for real.

Many of us who are here are ex-Christians, including Brian Flemming who is an ex fundamentalist. We we're "it." Rook wanted to be a Priest, he "checked into" everything biblical. Turns out with an open mind, those who believe the bible must confess it holds no water.

Quote:
It's not you, the person reading this that makes me a little angry... it's the cause.

The cause is for people who want to expose a myth to people who don't realize it's a myth, to help out. If you see something wrong with that, you seriously need to get your morals checked.

Quote:
I was once where you are right now.

You used to run a futile website and hosted a War on Easter too? Or do you mean how you were once an atheist, like EVERY person ever born on this rock we call Earth.

Quote:
Peace guys... and have a great day. Eye-wink

Peace to you to, likewise, have a great day. May it be full of critical and rational thought, as clearly it wasn't in the first half of your day.

- Brian Sapient


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CynageN
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Misguided?

I must have missed the part where Christians were loving OR tolerant. Need I post the exhaustive amounts of images named "God hates fags" google image search will provide me with? If you were a true christian, you wouldn't care what disbelievers have to say as your lord would take care of us with an eternity of hell and brimstone. That sounds very loving to me! :roll:


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Misguided?

I think..in a sense you are right....not ALL xtians are irrational, there are a few that are very rational. However, I will say this. Theoretically, in order to have social change, you have to bring awareness to the people. I think you're missing the point here, by making this a "big" contraversy, perhaps people will stop and think. How many times have you found jesus saves flyers on your car, in your mailbox...this is the same thing. As I get flyers on my property and car, so will they, except with a bonus, some will actually get a movie.

I think you are upset because it is attacking a belief system you have developed. You call us childish, but I think you have to see the bigger picture here. I personally don't care all that much about putting flyers or DVD's in churches etc..so it'll raise a stink...so what..if it's so non-threatning and will only make the resolve of xtians stronger..then..what have you to worry about? Having said that, thank you for coming on here to express your worries. We now know this at least, touching nerves.

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Misguided?

LeftofLarry wrote:
I think..in a sense you are right....not ALL xtians are irrational, there are a few that are very rational.

Some things are rational, some things are not rational - this is a silent point I've made in some of my posts.

Judge ideas or beliefs as being rational, not people. I think this is common sense.

Thus if you consider Christianity irrational then Christianity is irrational, however the Christian can be a very rational person. They have that one thing that you consider irrational. And if you combine all the "irrational precepts" enough, you realize you are all alone as the only rational man on earth, and then you realize that thinking this is irrational and everyone is irrational.

Judge ideas with rationality, but do not judge people with their beliefs, rather their actions, their processes - even if it is a system of thought.

I'm a dipshit.


n8
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Misguided?

i support the war on easter but the vast majority of christians will shrug off the dvd or burn it.
the kids are your best bet, hook'em in while they're young!

Fucking with the rich is not only necessary, it's also a hell of a lot of fun.
-Jello Biafra, Dead Kennedys

"GOD is dead"
Friedrich Nietzsche

religious wars are like argueing over who's imaginary friend is better.
richard jeni


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n8 wrote:
hook'em in while they're young!

... hope you are joking.


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Gravity wrote:
n8 wrote:
hook'em in while they're young!

... hope you are joking.

Are Christians joking when they do it?

- Brian Sapient


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Gravity
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Misguided?

Sapient wrote:
Gravity wrote:
n8 wrote:
hook'em in while they're young!

... hope you are joking.

Are Christians joking when they do it?

I wish they were. But, obviously not.

I don't mean to infer anything more in your response, but if your mind is wandering about the desert that Jesus himself was tempted in, and you think to yourself, "hey, christians do it, we should to," than you are finally my perfect enemy.

I'm a dipshit.


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Misguided?

Ever see the "loving" expressions on the faces of anti-abortion protesters? :roll:


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Misguided?

RationalChristian wrote:
You people must just be a bunch of liberal antagonists with a chip on your shoulder. What? not popular enough in high school so now you gotta show everyone how brillient you are by starting a conflict against what are generally a tolorant, loving group of people? ... Seems a little childish doesn't it? ... Ooohhh you got us! ... Are you serious? This is the best you can do? ... Please, get a hobby. Get a girlfriend... something. Or, check into what a real athiest is. You wouldn't be wasting your time and energy on a futile website if you really are one.

Oh dear. Sorry atheists irritate you so. Allow me to apologise for our existence.

And if it's any consolation we'll all suffer never-ending terrfying agonies for having the audacity not to believe in your god. Hopefully you find that fact therapeutic and will be able to unwind a little.


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Misguided?

MattShizzle wrote:
Ever see the "loving" expressions on the faces of anti-abortion protesters? :roll:

Why is abortion so often made an issue of religon.

Done so fallaciously by the religious, and done so ironically hypocritical by the opposition.

I'm a dipshit.


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Misguided?

Gravity wrote:
MattShizzle wrote:
Ever see the "loving" expressions on the faces of anti-abortion protesters? :roll:

Why is abortion so often made an issue of religon.

Ask the religious.

Quote:
Done so fallaciously by the religious, and done so ironically hypocritical by the opposition.

Dumbass, it's done so by the opposition BECAUSE the religious do it so fallaciously. Could you please raise the level of intellect in your posts, people are suggesting banning you, for real, and for good this time.

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Gravity
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Misguided?

I lied.


Sapient
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Gravity wrote:
Nevermind. Perhaps you are correct. I apologize.

Oh Your God!! Mark this moment. Kudos to you for "perhaps" conceding a point and apologizing. Wow, I'm miffed.

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Gravity
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Misguided?

Well if you think about it, the religious make it a situation only god can resolve, or I should have said, only god can declare right or wrong. Regardless of the situation itself, it is made a situation of religion and should be attacked as a situation of religion.

I'm a dipshit.


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rationalchristian wrote:
I'm completely true to what I believe. I don't push my beliefs on anyone unless they ask. I believe in Christianity because I truly feel that through exhaustive study, I proved its existance to myself. I came to my own conclusions. I believe that most christians act completely on faith alone. Because mom said there is a God... then I believe. I came through a completely different door. I don't judge. I can dissagree, but I don't judge... probably because I was once an athiest. I respect an athiest far more than a "Sunday Christian". At least they are true to what they believe (or don't believe). But to attack Christianity as a whole... is pointless and serves no "rational" purpose. Attack the individual based on his or her behavior... not the ideal.

This is the typical Christian "We're being persecuted response". Little does the Christian realize that their beliefs inherently mean to cause me harm. Due to the way I wake up every morning and act indifferently towards the notion of a giant purple unicorn in the sky, to them, I am to spend all of eternity suffering an unimaginable horror.

We (Atheists) are not the antagonists here. Your world view presupposes my wrong doing in any and all situations and requires that I burn in hell. Hostility towards the disbeliever is rather commonplace amongst theists. It is our right to defend ourselves against this type of irrationale which promotes a large chunk of the violence and coercion that exist in the world today. I propose that you were never an atheist, rather, someone who continues to spend a prolonged portion of his life lacking free thought and an education.


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Misguided?

Gravity wrote:
LeftofLarry wrote:
I think..in a sense you are right....not ALL xtians are irrational, there are a few that are very rational.

Some things are rational, some things are not rational - this is a silent point I've made in some of my posts.

Judge ideas or beliefs as being rational, not people. I think this is common sense.

Thus if you consider Christianity irrational then Christianity is irrational, however the Christian can be a very rational person. They have that one thing that you consider irrational. And if you combine all the "irrational precepts" enough, you realize you are all alone as the only rational man on earth, and then you realize that thinking this is irrational and everyone is irrational.

Judge ideas with rationality, but do not judge people with their beliefs, rather their actions, their processes - even if it is a system of thought.

I would not consider any religious person to be rational - they have a ridiculous belief in a god or gods, when there is no objective proof of their gods existence. If i believed that space aliens were controlling me with radio waves and i had no proof of it - would i be rational? I do not consider any of them rational because their superstitious belief dictates how they live their life in every way, every decision...how is that rational? Of course there are pick and choose christians and moderates that obviously dont consider their religion when making decisions, but these people are also irrational as well because they believe in a god but dont feel it is necessary to follow the god's laws.

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lunkradio_dot_com wrote:
Gravity wrote:
LeftofLarry wrote:
I think..in a sense you are right....not ALL xtians are irrational, there are a few that are very rational.

Some things are rational, some things are not rational - this is a silent point I've made in some of my posts.

Judge ideas or beliefs as being rational, not people. I think this is common sense.

Thus if you consider Christianity irrational then Christianity is irrational, however the Christian can be a very rational person. They have that one thing that you consider irrational. And if you combine all the "irrational precepts" enough, you realize you are all alone as the only rational man on earth, and then you realize that thinking this is irrational and everyone is irrational.

Judge ideas with rationality, but do not judge people with their beliefs, rather their actions, their processes - even if it is a system of thought.

I would not consider any religious person to be rational - they have a ridiculous belief in a god or gods, when there is no objective proof of their gods existence. If i believed that space aliens were controlling me with radio waves and i had no proof of it - would i be rational? I do not consider any of them rational because their superstitious belief dictates how they live their life in every way, every decision...how is that rational? Of course there are pick and choose christians and moderates that obviously dont consider their religion when making decisions, but these people are also irrational as well because they believe in a god but dont feel it is necessary to follow the god's laws.

Well, I have spoken to some who believe that their faith in god rests with them and them only. These are the types of theists that follow more of a buddhist perspective to theism. If that makes any sense, they usually are against religion and fundamentalism and actually, some side with atheists to get rid of the institution of religion. But they have a deep seeded "relationship" with what they call a God. I will give them rationality in the fact that they don't believe there are miracles, or dogma or anything associated wtih religion. Free thinking theists??? I guess you would call them. I call them rational because they use their brain to think even if they have this deep seeded belief in a God or idea of a God. They keep it to themselves. and that's ok with me..these are people, I think would help our cause more than hurt it. It's the fundies that are the real problem I think.

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Yes, and as for the objective proof comment- if theists had objective proof, they wouldn't be believing, but knowing (ignore skepticism for a moment). There is a reason why it is called believing.

To call it irrational is to imply you have a very deep understanding of their beliefs. To call them irrational would imply that you know them and can predict every choice they will make. I seriously doubt you have this knowledge- and to suggest that since they have one belief about the world (that you don't) makes them irrational, I'd say you are being irrational yourself.

I'm a dipshit.


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Gravity wrote:

To call it irrational is to imply you have a very deep understanding of their beliefs.

To call them irrational is to take them at their word... the theist himself tells me about his 'faith' - theistic faith is non contingent faith, the belief that one can hold to a belief without any justification other than desire..... any belief based on desire alone - theistic faith, is irrational by definition.

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

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Gravity wrote:
Yes, and as for the objective proof comment- if theists had objective proof, they wouldn't be believing, but knowing (ignore skepticism for a moment). There is a reason why it is called believing.

No gravity, that doesn't work. I believe when I type these letters, they will appear on the screen, that is because I have past experiences to validate this. If for some reason a key breaks, I adjust my conclusion and start believing that a particular key wont make the letter appear, again based on observation, reasonable expectation, and logical deduction. Belief in god is an irrational one as there is no proof for it, and it should not be equated with other beliefs that have evidence or proof behind them.

Quote:
To call it irrational is to imply you have a very deep understanding of their beliefs.

I do have full understanding of those who believe in god. In fact it is because of this, that I don't. They believe in something literally that has absolutly no proof.

Quote:
To call them irrational would imply that you know them and can predict every choice they will make.

I don't need to know what they'll eat for dinner to call them irrational on their theistic position. It however, would be irrational for me to call their food choices irrational if I knew nothing of their food choices.

Quote:
I seriously doubt you have this knowledge- and to suggest that since they have one belief about the world (that you don't) makes them irrational, I'd say you are being irrational yourself.

Again, the reason I don't hold this god belief that they irrationally hold, is because I'm rational not because there is proof for it, that I irrationally reject.

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todangst wrote:
Gravity wrote:

To call it irrational is to imply you have a very deep understanding of their beliefs.

To call them irrational is to take them at their word... the theist himself tells me about his 'faith' - theistic faith is non contingent faith, the belief that one can hold to a belief without any justification other than desire..... any belief based on desire alone - theistic faith, is irrational by definition.

Well put.

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todangst wrote:

To call them irrational is to take them at their word... the theist himself tells me about his 'faith' - theistic faith is non contingent faith, the belief that one can hold to a belief without any justification other than desire..... any belief based on desire alone - theistic faith, is irrational by definition.

I do not wish to have much of a conversation with you for reasons I would not like to go into right now. But I will reply-

Anyone who isn't a compelte skeptic needs faith. Although I know how much you all enjoy using your own defintions of words in here, let me define faith and let that be at that (if you want to disagree with my definition, that is fine, but if you want to argue I am wrong using a different definition than the one I assign, I simply will not respond). Faith = trust in belief or perceptions. Use reason on reason and you get a causa sui on reason. Essentially, in a postmodernistic sense, we are not the great masters of rationality that we would like to be. Not to argue that theism is rational, but consistency shows that anything other than pure skepticism is irrational as well.

Belief of a god dwindles down to a matter of opinion. You may also have the opinion that someone is irrational. But to be honest, I'd rather not invest so much on mere opinion.

"Stubborn and ardent clinging to one's opinion is the best proof of stupidity" - Montaigne

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Sapient wrote:

No gravity, that doesn't work. I believe when I type these letters, they will appear on the screen, that is because I have past experiences to validate this. If for some reason a key breaks, I adjust my conclusion and start believing that a particular key wont make the letter appear, again based on observation, reasonable expectation, and logical deduction. Belief in god is an irrational one as there is no proof for it, and it should not be equated with other beliefs that have evidence or proof behind them.

Let us look at your statement in reverse.

"Belief in god is an irrational one as there is no proof for it, and it should not be equated with other beliefs that have evidence or proof behind them."

You say that you should not equate the belief of god with something that has evidence or proof. Essentially, the belief of god should not be equated with something that can be validated.

"I believe when I type these letters, they will appear on the screen, that is because I have past experiences to validate this."

Like this. So, equating the belief of god with something like this would not be very fruitful.

Quote:
I do have full understanding of those who believe in god. In fact it is because of this, that I don't. They believe in something literally that has absolutly no proof.

Are you serious? This does not sound very rational. Actually it sounds a bit egotistical and ignorant. Almost like something a fundamentalist right winger would say. Almost like there is absolutely no sense in trying to talk to you because you already know you are right and anyone who disagrees is wrong.

Quote:
I don't need to know what they'll eat for dinner to call them irrational on their theistic position.

Enough said. Their position is what you think is irrational, not themselves in whole.

Quote:
Again, the reason I don't hold this god belief that they irrationally hold, is because I'm rational not because there is proof for it, that I irrationally reject.

Sounds a bit dogmatic. Nobody said there is proof. What is proof anyways?

I admire the person who claims atheism even if there were proof of a god.

I'm a dipshit.


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Gravity wrote:

let me define faith and let that be at that (if you want to disagree with my definition, that is fine, but if you want to argue I am wrong using a different definition than the one I assign, I simply will not respond).

Faith = trust in belief or perceptions...

...that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence

(and let's just leave it at that)
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=faith #2

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Faith is simply irrational in and of itself.


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Sapient wrote:

...that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence

(and let's just leave it at that)
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=faith #2


I give up. All you fucking care about it is in being right. This is your shortcoming, fool. I clearly defined faith, and I clearly told you, not to try to use a different definition. But sure enough, here you come, with your second definitions, AND YOU IGNORE THE FIRST! I give up. There is no arguing with you dumbasses.

I cannot waste any more time on you. You drive out any 'rationality' with your collective logic. You drove out "Kevin" with your inabilities to RESPECT other people's opinions. And you've driven me out with your clear and blatant stupidity.l

I'm a dipshit.


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Translation: You have pissed me off and I have no further way of debating you, so I will insult you and stomp my feet like a child.


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Gravity wrote:
Sapient wrote:

...that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence

(and let's just leave it at that)
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=faith #2

I give up.

No you don't, as illustrated in this post.

Quote:
All you fucking care about it is in being right.

It's not all I care about, however I rarely take a positive assertive position on something I'm wrong about. I think being "right" is fairly important.

Quote:
This is your shortcoming, fool.

Calling me a fool again? Asshole.

Quote:
I clearly defined faith, and I clearly told you, not to try to use a different definition.

You also said: "if you want to argue I am wrong using a different definition than the one I assign, I simply will not respond"

1. You're a liar.
2. This is my fucking house, and when someone acts like an idiot, they can't weasel out of it by asking people to ignore that idiocy if others don't agree. If you don't like being subjected to differing opinions, leave!

Quote:
But sure enough, here you come, with your second definitions, AND YOU IGNORE THE FIRST!

I didn't ignore the first (which was different than yours)

Quote:
I give up.

As illustrated by your rebuttal. :roll:

Quote:
There is no arguing with you dumbasses.

Yeah there is, as illustrated in your post.

Quote:
I cannot waste any more time on you.

Bye. So, we'll never see you again, here? Feel free to not answer that, when you never come back.

Quote:
You drive out any 'rationality' with your collective logic. You drove out "Kevin" with your inabilities to RESPECT other people's opinions.

I respect Kevins opinion, he has the right to be closed minded and wrong, thats fine with me.

Quote:
And you've driven me out with your clear and blatant stupidity.

Well you've illustrated in this post that you are a liar, I hope you're not lying in that last statement.

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CynageN wrote:
Translation: You have pissed me off and I have no further way of debating you, so I will insult you and stomp my feet like a child.

Thanks, I misplaced my gravity to English dictionary with my female to English dictionary somewhere. :smt003

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Laughing out loud That is hilarious!


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Well I hate to tell you guys something you already knew, but Gravity also lied about leaving. He sent me a PM I'm guessing because he's lacking confidence in his debating skills to post this publicly.

Quote:
It is interesting you should comment about my immaturity- would you not have done it without the backup of several friends online? The internet bandwagon, a truly beautiful and funny thing.

Tell me, how does one argue if one cannot use words? How do I defend myself if I define words and make points, when the opponent comes in and redefines them and leaves it as that?

So you want me to refute him?? I will, simple... if there were material proof for a god, it would not be a god, but material. As well, one must trust their perceptions for material truth. I tried saying "faith" - because honestly it is a much more powerful word and a word that many people on this board hate, but I meant "trust". The trust in the perceptions is what makes the proof true. The trust in the beliefs is what makes the belief true.

And when one person defines a word, not only defines it how it is defined in the first part of the dictionary definition given, and somebody comes back and refutes him based changing the definition and using the secondary one- it almost make me want to cry for Sapient's sheer stupidity.

Please, learn the ethics of debate before you make yourself look like a fool. If you go to college, you might be able to take a GE class that encompasses debate or logic (both are essentially the same thing, just one covers logic more, and the other covers debate more). You may learn word like "stipulative defintion" - for those debates where words do not exist for the point you are trying to make.

I hope soon you can break off from the collective bandwagon on the board here, and maybe you too can laugh at their seemingly religious tie to words.

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So where did IrrationalChristian go?

I highly doubt he was an atheist, if he was, then he must have been a highly uninformed atheist.

Those that claim to have been atheists and are now Christians or other religions were almost always not really atheists. They are just like my friend whom never was really too religious, nor was he experienced in the knowledge required to be an intelligible atheist.

The typical conversion process follows... It quite often comes about either because they marry a religious person or become friends with religious people. They want to fit in or belong? The other common way is often when those people feel they needed to repent for all the rather stupid decisions they have made.

The second notion is the way my friend went. He has been wasting his life away though alcohol, drugs, and laziness while in college, and now he has pretty much screwed his college plans and has moved to Utah now. There he thought he would start over, so he began going to church, and now calls him self a Christian. He is now making more stupid decisions than ever before through spending money he doesn't have and getting fired as well...

He now claims to have converted from atheism to Christianity; however, he was never truly and atheist. He was as the very most a non-practicing Christian.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan


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Atheist wrote:
So where did IrrationalChristian go?

Maybe you should send him an email. Eye-wink

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Sapient wrote:
CynageN wrote:
Translation: You have pissed me off and I have no further way of debating you, so I will insult you and stomp my feet like a child.

Thanks, I misplaced my gravity to English dictionary with my female to English dictionary somewhere. :smt003

I didn't see this before ....

*Gives Sapient the evil eye*