Question for our Christian visitors
Most Christians claim that Jesus fulfilled the law of the Old Testiment and therefore they are no longer under it. They claim to now be under grace. If that true then why do you get so upset when someone tries to remove dispalys of the Ten Commandments form public places like courthouses or schools?
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca
I am explaining the difference between your question "how do I know that the Bible IS the word of God', and what I see, that 'the Bible contains the word of God'. For example,
Deu 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give [it] in her hand, and send her out of his house.
Was this God's law, or the law of Moses?
Mat 19:7 - 19:8 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
Moses allowed divorce, because of the hardness of the peoples hearts.
Jhn 8:5 - 8:7 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with [his] finger wrote on the ground, [as though he heard them not]. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Did Jesus go against the Law of God or the law of Moses?
Which laws are the laws of God and which laws are the laws of Moses? How do you tell the difference?
The difference is that Christianity was not a religion at this time.
Every religion has a beginning. This still isn't unique, at all.
These people knew Jesus. They ate with him, walked with him and listened to him for years. They had ample time to judge wether or not he was a flake.
How do you know that?
Because they give these reasons in their books. I did not make them up.
Do you have any evidence other than human testimony inside a compilation of religious scriptures?
because I was not there physically, is to look at the effects these events had on their surroundings.
If, however, they had the ability to perform supernatural events, I might follow to see If their words match what I understand to be the will of God. I would never put my flesh in jepordy without proof (that satisfies myself) that there claims must be true. It is unnatural not to love self, or life. (I know that many these days kill themselves due to depression, and in days past due to honor, but never did they follow something they know to be false, just because they wanted to die.)
Again, people in other religions also die for their beliefs. Why do you subscribe to this religion instead of another one?
Again, to go against what one believes, and give up their lives for a cause that has not been taught to them from infancy, or for a man which they knew personally and had an opportunity to determine the truthfulness of his teachings and the power of his words,
How do you know that?
to me this is different.
Uh, no, it's not different. People in other religions die for their beliefs. Other scriptures describe how people followed prophets and were converted to their respective faiths.
Yes. Baby steps. Seeing God in the universe is the first step. Once a person can see God's workings, or come to the acknowledge intelligence behind the things we can see, then, and only then, can that person can discover God's will.
Ah, I see. I have to become a theist before I can become a Christian.
- How do I see God in the universe?
- How does this support Christianity more than any other monotheistic religion?
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Yes, I see the problem.
I am wondering what exactly the extra-biblical evidence should support. If I need to show extra-biblical evidence that the Bible is the word of God, I'm not sure I can do it.
Precisely. This is where we're coming from. We see what you just said, and what others say, using their books, etc, and we say "Wait a minute. This is exactly the same."
If there *were* a true religion, if there *were* a multi-omni god (assuming the 'all good' portion, and also assuming a punishment/reward system like that described in the Bible) there wouldn't be any problem. We wouldn't be thinking about "Does god exist?" or "Which god?" We'd be thinking "How should we worship god?"
And god, being all-powerful and all-knowing, *could* do so if he chose. That he hasn't yet, says that he is either malign or indifferent. Again, assuming multi-omni status.
In other words: I agree. There's absolutely no way to prove it. And it's not because we're not open-minded, or that our hearts are hardened against god, or that we hate god, or whatever.... it's just that the evidence is insufficient. And in a world with an all-powerful and all-knowing god, that's an argument-smooshing paradox. 'Smooshing' is a technical term.
If I understand you right, because God is all powerful and all knowing, he could make himself known or make the truth known, then all would worship him and none would be lost, and because he does not, he either does not exist, or exists and is not worthy of worship anyway. Is this the paradox?
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
God said that he wished he would not have made man, because man commits evil. Would he have said this if he already knew we would turn out this way? or how about:
Jer 36:1 - 36:3 And it came to pass in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, [that] this word came unto Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, Take thee a roll of a book, and write therein all the words that I have spoken unto thee against Israel, and against Judah, and against all the nations, from the day I spake unto thee, from the days of Josiah, even unto this day. It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.
The belief that God knows everything that we will ever do is not biblical. Freewill is our ability to choose our actions. God clearly does not know wether the house of Judah will repent of their ways, but tells Jeremiah to speak to them anyway.
Anyway, God does make himself manifest to those who come to him. Those who seek him will find him. Exactly why this is so, I do not know.
So what indirect evidence do you have for supernatural existence? Or agency? Or beings? What is the evidence?
How about the existance of instruction. If, in the beginning there was just matter and energy, and space (void) between, or wether matter became energy or vice-versa, (or however you may personally believe it took place), where did instruction come from? Instruction exists behind everything. What tells, (or how does it know) DNA to unwind itsself into two pieces, and combine with half of another DNA strand to give instruction on the formation of one new being?
Where did math come from? Math is behind everything in the universe. Humans discovered it, and use it as a tool. Without math, life would not exist and forces would cease to exist. Forces of the universe obey mathmatical equasions. So, beginning with matter and energy, how did math come into existance, and what gave instruction?