A question for Atheists?

SteveMcEl
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A question for Atheists?

You say teaching Christianity to children is "child abuse" and "brainwashing" yet your BlasphemyChallenge.com website also states that it particularly wants to target the youth because the youth are the easiest to be indoctrined. Isn't that a bit hypocritical?


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It's really more like a

It's really more like a vaccination.   Teaching kids how to use their brains and think logically helps prevent them from contracting an awful mind disease.


SteveMcEl
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But it wouldn't it be ideal

But it wouldn't it be ideal to expose the child to both philosophies, and then let the child reach a logical conclusion themselves. I just fail to see the difference between raising a child atheist and raising them Christian.


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    SteveMcEl 

    SteveMcEl  asks,    "the youth are the easiest to be indoctrined. Isn't that a bit hypocritical? "

 DO YOU NOT CARE ? I AM considering castrating you ?

WHAT WAS THE QUESTION again, regarding my kids ?

 


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SteveMcEl wrote: But it

SteveMcEl wrote:
But it wouldn't it be ideal to expose the child to both philosophies, and then let the child reach a logical conclusion themselves. I just fail to see the difference between raising a child atheist and raising them Christian.

That's because you are erroneously comparing the "philosophy of atheism" with a religious philosophy.  Atheism is NOT a religion, not a philosophy, not anything but a ridiculous word concocted by the religious to marginalize those who do not share their beliefs.  Think about it: do you consider yourself an aleprechaunist? Aastrologist?  Aunicornist?  Why in the world is "atheism" even a word?

Another question: assuming you have children, do you expose them (equally) to buddism, islam, hinduism, judaism, jainism, scientology, mormonism, santeria, zeus, thor?  If you don't, why not?

Why not give kids a firm grounding in reality first, i.e. science, math, literature, etc?  And please, don't even start with the "can't teach them 'morals' without religion" nonsense. 


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SteveMcEl wrote: You say

SteveMcEl wrote:
You say teaching Christianity to children is "child abuse" and "brainwashing" yet your BlasphemyChallenge.com website also states that it particularly wants to target the youth because the youth are the easiest to be indoctrined. Isn't that a bit hypocritical?

First of all the challenge is out there for people who are questioning their faith arleady, it is not forcing a biased education onto a child from prior to the point that they are aware of their surroundings as religion assumes to do.

Furthermore most atheists believe strongly in comparative religious education, something of which I am a very big supporter of.

It is also true that from this side of the fence there is a very strong push for "there is no reason to believe something that has no basis".  If the advertising that something else has no evidence or basis for it's message is considered "brain washing" then I'm not sure what would NOT be classified as brain washing.

Doctrine itself is associated with religion,so it is hard to indoctrinate someone without any doctrine.

What this is presenting is a way for people who already don't believe to "come out".  A lot of what is going on here is about the advertising of doubt, the acceptance of doubt, the message that it is okay to not believe.

We don't profess harm or come to people do or do not do it, it is 100% up to the person doing it.  There are no threats.  This is in dramatic contrast to what we see from religion. 


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SteveMcEl wrote: But it

SteveMcEl wrote:
But it wouldn't it be ideal to expose the child to both philosophies, and then let the child reach a logical conclusion themselves. I just fail to see the difference between raising a child atheist and raising them Christian.

In one you're telling them that a set of beliefs without evidence is positive and these are the truths of the universe.  In the other you are not teaching anything.

Don't fall under the misconception that things such as evolution are "taught by atheism" as those are taught to everyone science that is "science".  There are no beliefs or values assigned with atheism beyond the absence of a deity. 


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   Science says LOUDLY  ,

   Science says LOUDLY  , I don't know !


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SteveMcEl wrote: You say

SteveMcEl wrote:
You say teaching Christianity to children is "child abuse" and "brainwashing" yet your BlasphemyChallenge.com website also states that it particularly wants to target the youth because the youth are the easiest to be indoctrined. Isn't that a bit hypocritical?

The question is dependent on addressing the assumption you make in your follow up.

SteveMcEl wrote:
But it wouldn't it be ideal to expose the child to both philosophies, and then let the child reach a logical conclusion themselves.

Atheism regards one question, and is not a dogmatic system of belief, but let's overlook this for the moment. In most cases, religious indoctrination takes place within a family and begins at an early age. If this doesn't include explicit exposure to the possibility that a god doesn't exist, then a targeted campaign like the Blasphemy Challenge would represent the fulfillment of the balance your statement implies. I don't see the parallel in the voluntary exposure of a person to an external source, like the Blasphemy Challenge, and the constant exposure and the pressure to conform within a family unit and community.

The form of your argument is also a false dichotomy since there aren't two religious systems to choose from, but thousands; even if you limit your choices to those with a sizable American following, there are more than two choices. For the implied balance to be achieved, one would either have to expose a child to every conceivable religious idea and allow them to choose (I think most little kids would dig the snazzy airbrush renderings of bright Hindu deities, myself, or the epic bombast of the Norse gods), or somehow find a reason to limit that field, and expose the child to that array. In reality, tradition is the sole deciding factor in most cases.

SteveMcEl wrote:
I just fail to see the difference between raising a child atheist and raising them Christian.

Sundays are more fun.


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I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:
Science says LOUDLY , I don't know !

 

Someone record the date and time...I think this is the first time I have ever seen you make a post that I understood on first read. 


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Tarpan wrote: Someone

Tarpan wrote:

Someone record the date and time...I think this is the first time I have ever seen you make a post that I understood on first read.

Don't worry... you did:

Quote:
February 9, 2008 - 5:39am

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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Quote: You say teaching

Quote:
You say teaching Christianity to children is "child abuse" and "brainwashing" yet your BlasphemyChallenge.com website also states that it particularly wants to target the youth because the youth are the easiest to be indoctrined. Isn't that a bit hypocritical?

Nah... we don't want to target them to brainwash them.  We want to target them and not brainwash them.  I know for a theist it's hard to understand the difference (because they're brainwashed), but we don't want to tell them what to believe in.  We just know with as much certainty as is possible scientifically and philosophically that theism is harmful and that there is absolutely no evidence that there's a god.

 Its like this:  Suppose one day school officials all got together and said, "From now on, we're going to teach children that Santa Clause is real, and that there's a hidden continent under the North Pole that you can only see with special glasses while standing on the moon."

If you said, "Hey, that's really stupid.  Don't teach children that nonsense!"   you'd be doing the same thing we're doing. 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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SteveMcEl wrote: You say

SteveMcEl wrote:
You say teaching Christianity to children is "child abuse" and "brainwashing" yet your BlasphemyChallenge.com website also states that it particularly wants to target the youth because the youth are the easiest to be indoctrined. Isn't that a bit hypocritical?

 The whole point is to demonstrate that there is nothing to be afraid of. Denying the holy spirit is no different than denying any other imaginary conception. 


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Hambydammit wrote: Its like

Hambydammit wrote:
Its like this: Suppose one day school officials all got together and said, "From now on, we're going to teach children that Santa Clause is real, and that there's a hidden continent under the North Pole that you can only see with special glasses while standing on the moon."

If you said, "Hey, that's really stupid. Don't teach children that nonsense!" you'd be doing the same thing we're doing.

a better question for steve would be... 

  if someone suggested we do not teach santa claus in schools, would that be brainwashing the children into not believing in santa claus?

I remeber when I was in school, saint nicholas was part of a subject (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas).  This put more of a human sense on the supernatural figure.  We hade a birthdate, life story, and death of this person.  There was no story of a resurrection and ascention to become the santa claus we know today.  This de-mystified santa cluas.

 If jesus was taught in this way, along with other equivelant prophets in history, I think it would be appropriate.  I actually encourage it as a way to de-mystify jesus just as the story of saint nicholas de-mystifies santa.


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SteveMcEl wrote: You say

SteveMcEl wrote:
You say teaching Christianity to children is "child abuse" and "brainwashing" yet your BlasphemyChallenge.com website also states that it particularly wants to target the youth because the youth are the easiest to be indoctrined. Isn't that a bit hypocritical?

 

Children should be taught how to think not what to think.


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Quote: Children should be

Quote:
Children should be taught how to think not what to think.

Here's where we have failed.  Those who have not been taught to think think they know how to think.  (Sorry... that was too much fun.  I couldn't talk myself into rewording it.)

It's pretty hard to convince adults that they missed some basic education.  It comes across as haughty or condescending, even when you say it as nicely as possible.  

Even so, you're exactly right.  I think it would be much more beneficial to give kids three or four years of logic and critical thinking in grade school.  Then, they would be much better prepared for not only more advanced classes, but life in general.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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My thoughts on this are my

My thoughts on this are my own and do not represent RRS.

 

SteveMcEl wrote:
You say teaching Christianity to children is "child abuse" and "brainwashing" yet your BlasphemyChallenge.com website also states that it particularly wants to target the youth because the youth are the easiest to be indoctrined. Isn't that a bit hypocritical?

 

Blasphemy Challenge wrote:

Is it true that you are targeting young people with this campaign?

Yes. As young people are the most vulnerable to religious indoctrination, we feel it is important to reach them with the concept of challenging the doctrine they are told to unquestioningly believe.

 

This site is trying to convince "young people" to not accept anything without questioning its basis in reality. This site seems to me to be trying to reach all people, young or old. But seriously, young people have a much greater chance to break free of the bonds of theism before they are as firmly afixed as they will be when they get older. The older you get the harder it is to break free, even when you start to realize theism is nonsense.

Every theist I've ever talked with about atheism believes that it has some sort of doctrine or unifying philosphy. It doesn't, We don't! The only thing we have in common is a lack of belief in the delusion that a majority of our fellow humans do.

Respectfully,
Lenny

"The righteous rise, With burning eyes, Of hatred and ill-will
Madmen fed on fear and lies, To beat and burn and kill"
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From the perspective of an

From the perspective of an Atheist who has been an Atheist all of his life despite having been exposed to Christianity over the course of his early childhood while at school... I learned critical thinking at an early age.  I wasn't really taught this, I had a natural tendency to question things anyway and no matter how many times someone sais to me "God did it" or "Because I said so", I refused to leave it at that unless I was bullied or forcibly silenced.  That tendency to keep questioning everything around me has stayed with me and continues to be a major driving force in my life today.  I never accept anything at face value, I keep digging for answers if I'm not satisfied with something I'm told.

I think that's one of the main reasons why I've never even been remotely attracted to the idea of religion.  It discourages critical thinking and curiosity, and there's no more obvious an example of this than the "Jesus Camp" Kids On Fire evangelical camp that was recently shut down.

Atheist, Logically-minded, Curious about the world around me.


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   hey Tapan, I think my

   hey Tapan, I think my error has been that I thought the average intelligence was much higher. Looking at religion and our world (finally in old age) I've come to realize I over estimiated the neighbors ....

to restate: Scientists say "I don't know; That'a why I am a scientist."

The Religious say? ..... (well you know)  Cry    


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Parents shouldn't push any

Parents shouldn't push any beliefs or opinions down their children's throats, the children should be allowed to think for themselves and make up their own mind. Parents shouldn't tell their kids that God does/doesn't exist.


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Erkki wrote:

Erkki wrote:
Parents shouldn't push any beliefs or opinions down their children's throats, the children should be allowed to think for themselves and make up their own mind. Parents shouldn't tell their kids that God does/doesn't exist.

Parents imprint things on their children. Period. It is not possible to leave a child as a blank slate. So even not telling children something is an imprint. Or, as you say, shoving it down their mouth.


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And more, parents have the

And more, parents have the obligation to 'imprint' their kids, because if they do not, then the rest of the world and popular culture will. I may not agree with everything some parents choose to teach, but I am far more comfortable with the idea that parents should be the primary instructers of their children than I am with the idea of leaving it to the whim and chance of what they might pick up from a pop culture that's calibrated to adults, but aimed at children.

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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Quote: Parents imprint

Quote:
Parents imprint things on their children. Period. It is not possible to leave a child as a blank slate. So even not telling children something is an imprint. Or, as you say, shoving it down their mouth.

Wave, I hope you recognize the difference here.  I had religion shoved down my throat.  If I didn't want to go to church, I was forced.  Same for bible study, wednesday service, youth group, summer (Jesus) camp.  I wasn't allowed to listen to "secular" music.  I was discouraged from having "secular" friends.

This is "shoving it down the throat."

I have a friend who has two young children.  Once a month, they go to the bookstore, and he lets each of them pick out any book in the store they want.  Then, he reads it with them, and asks them what they think about it.  If they give an answer like, "I don't know.  I don't care," he admonshes them for being intellectually lazy, but that's it.  Otherwise, he just keeps asking them  questions, teaching them how to think critically.

The kids love the bookstore, but sometimes they'd rather do something else.  He makes them go anyway.  

This is not forcing something down their throat -- it's compelling them to keep putting whatever they want into their own brain.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Hambydammit

Hambydammit wrote:

 

Wave, I hope you recognize the difference here.

Yes. I understand. There can be a heavy handed, emotionally stifling environment and a warm, nurturing one. But automatically equating theistic homes with negative development of the child into an adult is unfair. I have personally met people raised in fundamentalist homes that were warm, caring individuals (ironically these tended to be people less inclined to proselytize and more concerned with my actual welfare) and have met "godless" people that were utterly abusive. My belief is that specific beliefs are less important than the environment that we create. Respect, thoughtfulness, empathy, self discipline, a good work ethic - these things are universal. Teach these things and our children would be far ahead.


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Quote: I have personally

Quote:
I have personally met people raised in fundamentalist homes that were warm, caring individuals (ironically these tended to be people less inclined to proselytize and more concerned with my actual welfare) and have met "godless" people that were utterly abusive.

And I've had meatloaf that didn't suck.  The exception doesn't mean the rule doesn't exist.

 

Quote:
Respect, thoughtfulness, empathy, self discipline, a good work ethic - these things are universal. Teach these things and our children would be far ahead.

Someone's making a fallacy of not remembering that normative doesn't equal positive.  (I have no idea what to call this, logically.)  These things are clearly not universal, but the point is well taken -- they should be universal if we were to be far ahead of where we are.

The fact is, fundamentalists tend overwhelmingly to be authoritarians, who are not empathetic and thoughtful, and who tend to have rather bizarre opinions of what respect is.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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   yeah HC Grindon who

   yeah HC Grindon who writes;  "Another question: assuming you have children, do you expose them (equally) to buddism, islam, hinduism, judaism, jainism, scientology, mormonism, santeria, zeus, thor?  If you don't, why not? "

Smile  LOUDER friend ! Blow HELL away !

 


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Hambydammit

Hambydammit wrote:

Quote:
I have personally met people raised in fundamentalist homes that were warm, caring individuals (ironically these tended to be people less inclined to proselytize and more concerned with my actual welfare) and have met "godless" people that were utterly abusive.

And I've had meatloaf that didn't suck. The exception doesn't mean the rule doesn't exist.

Quote:
Respect, thoughtfulness, empathy, self discipline, a good work ethic - these things are universal. Teach these things and our children would be far ahead.

Someone's making a fallacy of not remembering that normative doesn't equal positive. (I have no idea what to call this, logically.) These things are clearly not universal, but the point is well taken -- they should be universal if we were to be far ahead of where we are.

The fact is, fundamentalists tend overwhelmingly to be authoritarians, who are not empathetic and thoughtful, and who tend to have rather bizarre opinions of what respect is.

 

 

And you are making a fallacy of over generalization. Fundamentalism is generally authoritarian. But not necessarily theism. 


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SteveMcEl wrote: You say

SteveMcEl wrote:
You say teaching Christianity to children is "child abuse" and "brainwashing" yet your BlasphemyChallenge.com website also states that it particularly wants to target the youth because the youth are the easiest to be indoctrined. Isn't that a bit hypocritical?

Why are you hung up on labels? You are assuming we are picking on you and Christianity, yet you would rightfully say that teaching a child to do nothing but regurgitate the Koran would be child abuse.

It is and here is why. You set a child up for the dissapointment of finding out that not everyone is a clone of you. Atheists dont teach their kids that everyone is like them or should be like them.

Children who are taught |"this is the only way, and you will believe it, like it or not" precludes them from learning to make decisions on their own. Then they run into oposition later in life that they dont know how to deal with which causes them needless  conflict.

I dont see anything wrong with telling a kid santa isnt real. I dont see anything wrong with telling a kid that |Thor is a myth. And I dont see anything wrong with telling a kid that humans DONT get up from the dead after 3 days of oxygen and bloodflow deprovation to the body.

We dont teach our children that the earth is flat, nor should we be teaching that hocus pokus is real. But if you insist on doing such, we are going to compete with you with the best tool available to humanity, and that is truth. It is not child abuse to teach a kid to use logic and reason.

If you can understand the logic you use to reject the claim that |"Thor made lighting", you should be able to understand WHY RRS targets EVERY DEMOGRAPHIC and criticises all superstitious claims, not just yours.

RRS believes, and so do I, that the age of believing myth as fact is on it's way out. For the same reason you reject the sun being a thinking entity called "Ra" which the ancient Egyptians believed for over 3,000 years.....for that same reason we reject claims of ghosts getting girls pregnant and zombie gods surviving rigor mortis.

There is nothing wrong with telling your neighbor that Ouiji Boards are worthless junk. There is nothing wrong with telling your kid that Zues is made up and there is nothing wrong with pointing out to you THAT YOU BAUGHT A LIE, no matter how good it may make you feel.

It never occurs to people like you that atheists are trying to help you excape the mind shackles of superstition. 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Quote:

Quote:
And you are making a fallacy of over generalization. Fundamentalism is generally authoritarian. But not necessarily theism.

Um... It's not overgeneralizing to point out that you weren't generalizing. You tried to use the exception to disprove the rule.

Of all the theists who allow their children to freely choose their religious beliefs, I'd bet that 98% of them are non-authoritarian.

Of all the people who allow their children to freely choose their religious beliefs, I'd bet that 15% (tops) are theists.

You do the math.

 Oh... I lent out my copy of The Authoritarian Specter, which you must read to have anywhere near a good understanding of this.  In any case, the correlation between theism and practice, and authoritarianism, is staggering.  I'm not going to try to remember the number, but again, here's the way it actually is.

* IF you practice your theism weekly, you are more than likely to be authoritarian.

* IF you practice your theism daily, you are almost certainly authoritarian.

* IF you practice your theism only on holidays or special occasions, it becomes a toss-up.

Again, by some simple extrapolation, people who only practice on holidays, are not going to be too upset if their kids eschew holidays as well -- at least they won't be nearly as upset as the daily's.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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If those numbers look

If those numbers look scary, it's because there's a swing vote, essentially.  Authoritarianism is a sliding scale, where the weakest authoritarians tend to do whatever the most dominant authoritarians (who are in favor) do.

In times when authoritarianism is out of favor, this group seems to disappear, for they have no leaders to latch onto.  Nevertheless, they still have the personality type.

 

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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SteveMcEl wrote: You say

SteveMcEl wrote:
You say teaching Christianity to children is "child abuse" and "brainwashing" yet your BlasphemyChallenge.com website also states that it particularly wants to target the youth because the youth are the easiest to be indoctrined. Isn't that a bit hypocritical?

 Thanks for asking in the form of a question rather than an accusation.

When we are born we are born without god belief.  As we grow up religious parents indoctrinate their children before they are able to out think religious principles.  Children are subjected to this brainwashing.  What we seek to do is to strip the fear of the system that they've been brainwashed into (believe this or burn in hell).  Never once have we said we targeted kids because we can indoctrinate them easier, we said we targeted the youth to help counteract the brainwashing they were or could be subjected to if they hadn't heard about us.

We offer no threats of eternal damnation, like religion.  We offer a perspective that Christian children are not taught.  

What I find truly hypocritical is the Christians who attack the Blasphemy Challenge for advertising to teens, while the same Christians indoctrinate teens and younger.  I've seen a great many Christians complain about us advertising to teens yet are unwilling to be honest about the fact that virtually all theists become so due to indoctrination at an early age.  

 

 

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SteveMcEl wrote: But it

SteveMcEl wrote:
But it wouldn't it be ideal to expose the child to both philosophies, and then let the child reach a logical conclusion themselves.

That's what most atheist parents do.

 

Quote:
I just fail to see the difference between raising a child atheist and raising them Christian.

 Then one would presume you are a Christian, and you were likely indoctrinated at an early age.

 

 

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Hambydammit wrote: * IF

Hambydammit wrote:

* IF you practice your theism weekly, you are more than likely to be authoritarian.

* IF you practice your theism daily, you are almost certainly authoritarian.

* IF you practice your theism only on holidays or special occasions, it becomes a toss-up. 

In this regard I may be falling victim to biases from my own atypical theism. I never "practiced" religion in a typical manner, even when I was in regular attendance of services. I always hated the speeches and such and was more focused on how people actually treated each other. I practice my theism through the way that I behave towards other people, not in how good I understand doctrine and theology. Behavior is something I can actually DO, whereas in areas philisophical and theological, I am inclined to make mistakes and most people don't give a shit about it anyway.


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Quote: In this regard I may

Quote:
In this regard I may be falling victim to biases from my own atypical theism.

Yes.  Your atheism in practice, theism in name is atypical, and it would be grossly incorrect to assume that your views are representative of theism.

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I practice my theism through the way that I behave towards other people, not in how good I understand doctrine and theology.

... which I've always found odd, because you're so fast to jump in on our side when someone suggests that morality is removed from empiricism.   Or, maybe I'm just imagining that you've done that.   I dunno.

 The generalizations I've given above are not conjecture.  They're fact.  Where I think you often err is in juxtaposition of should and are.  Authoritarians are rigid in their childrearing, and they also are overwhelmingly theist.  If authoritarians were not theists, they would still be rigid disciplinarians, but they wouldn't have the bolstering dogma that they are right even if science says they're wrong.  That's the whole point.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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Cali_Athiest2
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Atheists coming to a door near you.

I don't believe atheists are indoctrinating anyone. Like many other people who have all ready stated, atheism is not a religion. However, I would love to go door to door telling people the good news of unbelief.

"Always seek out the truth, but avoid at all costs those that claim to have found it" ANONYMOUS


wavefreak
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Cali_Athiest2 wrote: I

Cali_Athiest2 wrote:
I don't believe atheists are indoctrinating anyone. Like many other people who have all ready stated, atheism is not a religion. However, I would love to go door to door telling people the good news of unbelief.

 

It is impossible to not indoctrinate. Again, parents cannot escape imprinting their children. Even if the imprinting is to be rational and ask questions it is still an imprint. 


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wavefreak wrote: It is

wavefreak wrote:

It is impossible to not indoctrinate. Again, parents cannot escape imprinting their children. Even if the imprinting is to be rational and ask questions it is still an imprint.

I think there is an important qualitative difference between impressing a specific, conclusive fact into a young mind and impressing that mind with a process by which it might arrive at facts.  

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown


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Tilberian wrote: wavefreak

Tilberian wrote:
wavefreak wrote:

It is impossible to not indoctrinate. Again, parents cannot escape imprinting their children. Even if the imprinting is to be rational and ask questions it is still an imprint.

I think there is an important qualitative difference between impressing a specific, conclusive fact into a young mind and impressing that mind with a process by which it might arrive at facts.

 

Of course there is a difference. But it is still indoctrination.  And so your child comes home from school one day and asks you about the Jesus freak that says we all need salvation. What are you going to tell him? Go to church with the Jesus freak and keep an open mind? No. You are going to present the facts as you see them. You will be unable to prevent your own bias against fundamentalism from affecting your presentation of those facts. You may teach him to reason, but you will also prime him with the data with which he must reason. You will also indoctrinate him with the belief that a rational approach to life is better than an irrational approach. You WILL indoctrinate him with something. Just not authoritarian, fundamentalist religion. And you will believe he is better for it.  


I AM GOD AS YOU
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   I trust this one

   I trust this one to be a nanny of my kids,

"Wisdom of the Buddha"   8 min, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTsb-woP3jI

, got something better ???  BTW, Einstein did approve .....


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The specific difference is

The specific difference is subtle, wave.

If you imprint/indoctrinate a child into theism, you are brainwashing them -- forcing them into accepting cognitive dissonance.

If you imprint/indoctrinate a child into, well, nothing (since atheism is literally a non-position), you're not brainwashing them.

Brainwashing, after all, requires that the teaching is at least partially false.  You can't brainwash someone into believing that stopsigns in America are red.

 

Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin

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SteveMcEl wrote: You say

SteveMcEl wrote:
You say teaching Christianity to children is "child abuse" and "brainwashing" yet your BlasphemyChallenge.com website also states that it particularly wants to target the youth because the youth are the easiest to be indoctrined. Isn't that a bit hypocritical?

 

I think myself absolutely no religious banter should be pointed at children... I feel that is the real goal in a morally balanced society. Niether within our views nor within any veiws A child shouldn't even know the word nor concept of either veiws.

But unfortunatelythats not the perfect world in which we all get to live in, rather in this Country(US) its like playing Cutthroat Island  to see who gets the first word.

So no I don't feel hypocritical at all. in the future Niether RRS nor The church is going to play any role as we will all most likely be more rational. 

If God didn't want atheists than we wouldn't exist..


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Slayne wrote: So no I

Slayne wrote:

So no I don't feel hypocritical at all. in the future Niether RRS nor The church is going to play any role as we will all most likely be more rational.

This, of course, if we survive this dark, "convert-or-die" days. One quick glance at the current state of affairs leads me to believe that our future will be a kind of Blade Runner type of world, but with one omni religion (an amalgam of most/all religions) instead of an omni language.

Now, in regards of the indoctrinatio questionn, most agnostic parents I know (I am yet to meet one family whose members refer themselves as atheists) do the "teach multiple sides and let the kids decide" type of upbringing. All theistic families I know exercise the "My God is Your God" approach, and some of this families put the "and everyone else is wrong" bonus in it, so, who was indoctrinating again?

Lenore, The Cute Little Dead Girl. Twice as good as Jesus.


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SteveMcEl wrote: You say

SteveMcEl wrote:
You say teaching Christianity to children is "child abuse" and "brainwashing" yet your BlasphemyChallenge.com website also states that it particularly wants to target the youth because the youth are the easiest to be indoctrined. Isn't that a bit hypocritical?

The Blasphemy Challange is not about attempting to indoctrinate people in the slightest. It targets young people because they are the most susceptible to the teachings of Christianity...it's like making a video about why Santa Clause is not real...most adults either know that Santa is not real or believe so throughally that he is that they won't listen. Children are the most open minded, and it's best to present an idea to them early.

 The Blasphemy Challange fights fire with...well, water I suppose.


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SteveMcEl wrote: You say

SteveMcEl wrote:
You say teaching Christianity to children is "child abuse" and "brainwashing" yet your BlasphemyChallenge.com website also states that it particularly wants to target the youth because the youth are the easiest to be indoctrined. Isn't that a bit hypocritical?

 

Easiest to be indoctrinated?

 

There's a difference between reaching out to teens, the most skeptical age developmentally, and inculcating infants into a belief.


Are you able to see this difference? If not, consider a course in developmental psychology.

 

Those who know the good, do the good. - Socrates

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wavefreak wrote: Of course

wavefreak wrote:

Of course there is a difference. But it is still indoctrination. And so your child comes home from school one day and asks you about the Jesus freak that says we all need salvation. What are you going to tell him? Go to church with the Jesus freak and keep an open mind? No. You are going to present the facts as you see them. You will be unable to prevent your own bias against fundamentalism from affecting your presentation of those facts. You may teach him to reason, but you will also prime him with the data with which he must reason. You will also indoctrinate him with the belief that a rational approach to life is better than an irrational approach. You WILL indoctrinate him with something. Just not authoritarian, fundamentalist religion. And you will believe he is better for it.

I think going to church with the Jesus freak is an excellent idea. I would certainly do that with my child, if circumstances permit, and encourage her to think critically about everything she sees and hears.

The difference is that my indoctrination doesn't support any conclusion. She could, using my teachings, arrive at the same exact conclusions as the fundy if the data supported it.  

 

Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown