Seeking information - Respecting religion

Steven
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Seeking information - Respecting religion

My girlfriend and I have had off and on arguements about religion in general.  She does not follow a specific religion, she nitpicks certain things she feels are true about whatever pops in her head.  She believes Jesus existed and was ressurected but also believes in Karma and energy guiding everythings purpose.  As soon as I start to critique what she says, and ask for some sort of evidence or definition, it quickly turns into the "you do not respect my beliefs" nonsense, as if her imagination and the things it creates have some form of universal respect granted to it.  It gets rather heated at times, and I am afraid it is putting my relationship with her in jeopardy, because we both lose our temper and result to getting mean and walking away.

 

I have been searching the forums and google for articles/essays in regards to the absurdity of respecting religious beliefs, and have come up with nothing solid.  I thought I had seen a thread on these forums a couple months back that had some very nice posts about this.  Can anyone point me in the right direction?  I would like to print something out that she can sit down and read, and hopefully realize that she can believe whatever she wants but it does not warrant respect.  I have tried to get her to read specific chapters in various books, but refuses.  She's read a couple articles I've had laying around and has found them interesting, so I am hoping I can get her to read something small.


wavefreak
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Why do you feel compelled to

Why do you feel compelled to change her beliefs? Are they hurting her in some way?


Steven
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wavefreak wrote: Why do you

wavefreak wrote:
Why do you feel compelled to change her beliefs? Are they hurting her in some way?

 

Hmm maybe I phrased wrong?

 

I am not compelled to change her beliefs.  She is under an impression that her "beliefs" are under a magical umbrella of no critiquing.  I dont randomly start arguements or push buttons.  I guess I can provide an example but I was really looking for a particular thread I can not find.

 

Last night she came home and mentioned how she is going to be giving something up for 40 days because of Lent. 

 

Now, when my girlfriend first entered my life she had said she was not religious by any means.  She does not attend church, or pray.  She said at a later point in our relationship that she believes in god to make her feel better about life, and death for that matter.  She was aware of my disdain for religion from the start.

 

Back to Lent, I asked her if she had any idea what Lent was, or why she was doing it.  She said she did not, all she knew was that people do it, and her father is catholic so she decided to try it this year.  Fine, whatever.  So because I asked that question, she said I was not respecting her beliefs.  Which started an arguement about why people that hold religious beliefs feel they are to be blindly respected.  She started to antagonize me on purpose, saying that she will get into heaven because of Lent, implying I will not.  So I started challenging her logic behind her specific beliefs.

 

I could care less what she believes in, or anyone else for that matter, just keep your fairy tail nonsense to yourself instead of making me listen to it.  If it is ok for her to sit there and say there is a God, and whatever else, I hardly see anything wrong in me saying the one she believes in does not exist, as she defines it. 


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Quote:

Quote:
I would like to print something out that she can sit down and read, and hopefully realize that she can believe whatever she wants but it does not warrant respect.

For starters, you should check out Sam Harris' Letter to a Christian Nation. It's a really short read. If you can get her to start that, its purpose is just what you're talking about. (or his other book End of Faith, but you might want to start with Letters, it looks small and harmless Eye-wink )

From there, it depends what she clings to I suppose.

Richard Carrier's introspective on why he isn't Christian is a good read: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/whynotchristian.html

Also this web page probably has some good stuff to print out: http://www.godisimaginary.com/

 


wavefreak
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Meh. I have a problem with

Meh.

I have a problem with people trying to "fix" each other. Fundamentalists are the worst at this because they feel compelled to "save" everybody, whether you want it or not.  But on a smaller scale, I see a lot of "fixing things that ain't broke" in relationships. If your girlfriend's theism is causing issues, then it's one thing. But if it is more a minor irritant (like leaving socks on the floor), why mess with a good thing?


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wavefreak wrote: Meh. I

wavefreak wrote:

Meh.

I have a problem with people trying to "fix" each other. Fundamentalists are the worst at this because they feel compelled to "save" everybody, whether you want it or not. But on a smaller scale, I see a lot of "fixing things that ain't broke" in relationships. If your girlfriend's theism is causing issues, then it's one thing. But if it is more a minor irritant (like leaving socks on the floor), why mess with a good thing?

Actually, it's much better if a couple agrees on the big stuff, otherwise you're just wasting a lot of money on nagging and silly arguments for the sake of a little ass. You may not be able to "fix" her, but there's plenty of other hers out there.


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stuntgibbon

stuntgibbon wrote:
wavefreak wrote:

Meh.

I have a problem with people trying to "fix" each other. Fundamentalists are the worst at this because they feel compelled to "save" everybody, whether you want it or not. But on a smaller scale, I see a lot of "fixing things that ain't broke" in relationships. If your girlfriend's theism is causing issues, then it's one thing. But if it is more a minor irritant (like leaving socks on the floor), why mess with a good thing?

Actually, it's much better if a couple agrees on the big stuff, otherwise you're just wasting a lot of money on nagging and silly arguments for the sake of a little ass. You may not be able to "fix" her, but there's plenty of other hers out there.

But the big stuff is different in each relationship. If theism/atheism are really important to a person, then, yeah, it's big stuff and it's probably better to find somebody compatible. But a lot of people are more ambivalent about it.


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I hate to say this but if

I hate to say this but if you can't respect her you shouldnt' be with her.  If you don't want her to talk to you about her beliefs, that could be a very serious problem as far as communicating with her.  It sounds to me like you are openly rejecting the idea of respectfully discussing her beliefs with her.

If your conversations are resorting to fights and anger it is likely that you both are not listening to each other.  If your post here is any account, then I think I am right in suggesting that you are not at least appreciating her beliefs and you openly state that you don't want to hear about them.

If you want to be able to have a rational discussion with her you have to be able to appreciate and respect the reasons for her beliefs, which are usually very simplistic and understandable when it comes to people who have this sort of half-belief.  It's a product of fear of the unknown (whether they openly recognize that or not). 

By pressing on an issue you're pressing on her about issues that she doesn't understand and she will be defensive about.  Open discussion and communication is neccessary on both sides.  More importantly though, if you are trying to convince someone of an idea, you should be particularly sensitive to the things that will cause them to become defensive.

 Anyways, just my 2 cents.


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Get her to watch all Pat

Get her to watch all Pat Condell’s videos on YouTube. This one is about respecting faith - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPAC_cGVnUg

 

“Anyone that demands respect automatically deserves ridicule because if you deserved respect you would already have it. You would be rolling around in it like a televangelist in other people’s money.” Pat Condell

 


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Quote: “Anyone that

Quote:
“Anyone that demands respect automatically deserves ridicule because if you deserved respect you would already have it."

By this logic.. no one who has respect, deserved it.  Unless, of course, they had it before they were even conceived.

 Q: Give me that piece of candy!

X: If you deserved it, you'd have it.

Q: So did you deserve it before you had it?

X: By my logic? No.

Of course.. maybe he was just making a joke. Heh. Sticking out tongue


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RhadTheGizmo

RhadTheGizmo wrote:

Quote:
“Anyone that demands respect automatically deserves ridicule because if you deserved respect you would already have it."

By this logic.. no one who has respect, deserved it. Unless, of course, they had it before they were even conceived.

Q: Give me that piece of candy!

X: If you deserved it, you'd have it.

Q: So did you deserve it before you had it?

X: By my logic? No.

Of course.. maybe he was just making a joke. Heh. Sticking out tongue

 

 

Yeah, it was a joke (with a jab) from the video I linked. You’d need to watch the whole lot to understand what he’s getting at. It made me laugh!

 


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Badbark wrote: Get her to

Badbark wrote:

Get her to watch all Pat Condell’s videos on YouTube. This one is about respecting faith - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPAC_cGVnUg

“Anyone that demands respect automatically deserves ridicule because if you deserved respect you would already have it. You would be rolling around in it like a televangelist in other people’s money.” Pat Condell

And it's statements like that which make me not respect folks like Pat Condell. Anyone who insists that you proceed from a position of disrespect is being foolishly antagonistic. It is far more productive and efficient to proceed from a position of respect until people give you cause to no longer respect them. 

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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This thread is a lesson in

This thread is a lesson in freethinkers who want freethinking answers to use the freethinker forum.  The atheist vs. theist forum was sure to deliver bullshit in return.  It's time for someone to poop on this thread.  Where is Triumph?

 

For the OP: If I have time I'll look around.  There is no less than several hundred posts defending disrespect of religion on this site. 

 

USE THIS TOOL HERE: http://www.rationalresponders.com/google_search_rationalresponders_com

 

Wish I had time now to find threads for you.  Sorry.


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Go along to get along.

Is your girlfriend hot? If so, you better just go along with whatever she believes if you want to keep having sex with her. If you ever decide to break up with her, then tell her what you really think of her beliefs.

 

Religion has become a way for one gender to dominate the other. In the west, Christianity is pretty much a tool for women to dominate men. In the Islamic world, religion is a tool for men to dominate women.

 

 

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


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You're not going to argee

You're not going to argee with your girlfriend and everything. As long as you love each other it doesn't matter.

 

I mean would you leave her if she had a different political stance? A different taste in music? Would you argue with her about these issues? How would you feel if she tried to convert you?

 They're girlfriends, not clones.

 

That said, as long as you can agree to disagree, you'll be fine.

 

 


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Steven wrote: My

Steven wrote:

My girlfriend and I have had off and on arguements about religion in general. She does not follow a specific religion, she nitpicks certain things she feels are true about whatever pops in her head. She believes Jesus existed and was ressurected but also believes in Karma and energy guiding everythings purpose. As soon as I start to critique what she says, and ask for some sort of evidence or definition, it quickly turns into the "you do not respect my beliefs" nonsense, as if her imagination and the things it creates have some form of universal respect granted to it. It gets rather heated at times, and I am afraid it is putting my relationship with her in jeopardy, because we both lose our temper and result to getting mean and walking away.


Here's my 2c:
There's a reason why people treat religious beliefs differently to factual beliefs. In factual beliefs we require evidence and religious beliefs have a different value?
Why? The same reason why we use a hammer differently to the saw - the hammer has a heavy head to hit things with and the saw has sharp edges to cut things with.

Facts about the world we use in a practical way that depends on their accuracy. If we want that plane to fly we need to construct it based on an accurate understanding of physics. Religious beliefs have a different purpose. The facts about the world are an important part of our knowledge but not the only important part. There's all sorts of other things to make sense of as well, values, relationships, our human nature, and these things don't tend to categorise as sharply as scientific fact. Infact, trying to treat them scientifically will fail.
(It's too complex to back up in this paragraph, but I absolutely recommend this book that is written by a guy who is well studied in the psychology of thought, learning and even backs up his theories with neuroscience.)

To put it shortly:
Your gf's musings on religion don't require the same hardline accuracy as facts of the world as they don't have a purpose that requires such accuracy. And to demand that she treats them in such a disciplined way is kind of attacking her personal intuitive take on the world. It's the side to us that our creativity comes from.


I AM GOD AS YOU
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   Cpt_pineapple is quit

   Cpt_pineapple is quit wise, answers to "Why Life" are unknown, we can all agree on that .... enjoy the "AWE" .....

I have a large folder of many movies and vids worth sharing, I will go grab just a few. I would try to agree to make a commitment to explore all religions , wisdom , and science, and FUN etc .... 

Wisdom of the Buddha 8 min, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTsb-woP3jI

Comedy, all George Carlin , on youtube , "Religion is bullshit". 10 min , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9oWhat's good about religion? patcondell 

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?p=r&user=patcondell&page=1Carl Sagan's Cosmos, Part 1 , 1 hr , http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6780568795154358597&q=Carl+Sagan%27s+Cosmos&total=332&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1Pale Blue Dot by Carl Sagan - Episode 1:... , 40 min , http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2588435272514121795&q=Carl+Sagan%27s+Cosmos&total=332&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=7

"Surviving the Singularity" , 20 min xlint ending http://www.dharmaflix.com/wiki/Surviving_the_Singularity 

The Pharmacratic Inquisition , 3.5 hrs broken into 7 segments http://www.gnosticmedia.com/DL.html

 --- or full length http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4555365073003895154

I would send this whole folder but I don't know how without an e address

GOOD LUCK, there will be no second chance!  Surprised

 

 


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BMcD wrote: Badbark

BMcD wrote:
Badbark wrote:

Get her to watch all Pat Condell’s videos on YouTube. This one is about respecting faith - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPAC_cGVnUg

“Anyone that demands respect automatically deserves ridicule because if you deserved respect you would already have it. You would be rolling around in it like a televangelist in other people’s money.” Pat Condell

And it's statements like that which make me not respect folks like Pat Condell. Anyone who insists that you proceed from a position of disrespect is being foolishly antagonistic. It is far more productive and efficient to proceed from a position of respect until people give you cause to no longer respect them.

You really need to watch the whole video to understand Pat’s point. Sorry, I realise now that the quote can easily be taken out of context.


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Cpt_pineapple wrote: I

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

I mean would you leave her if she had a different political stance?

I would. 

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
A different taste in music?

Yes. 

 

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
Would you argue with her about these issues?

Maybe, but likely wouldn't bother and move on. 

 

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
How would you feel if she tried to convert you?

 She'd get kicked to the curb.  I'm not even joking, I'd help her pack.

 

It's delusional to fall into the "there's only one for me!" mindset.  There's a lot more women out there.  Keep digging, if you reeled in a nag that likes to argue. 


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Badbark wrote:

Badbark wrote:

You really need to watch the whole video to understand Pat’s point. Sorry, I realise now that the quote can easily be taken out of context.

I did. It doesn't make the sentiment revealed in that statement any more palatable. There is a difference between not respecting an idea as a default position, ie: 'convince me', and not respecting people by default.

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


Steven
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Sapient wrote: This thread

Sapient wrote:

This thread is a lesson in freethinkers who want freethinking answers to use the freethinker forum.  The atheist vs. theist forum was sure to deliver bullshit in return.  It's time for someone to poop on this thread.  Where is Triumph?

 

For the OP: If I have time I'll look around.  There is no less than several hundred posts defending disrespect of religion on this site. 

 

USE THIS TOOL HERE: http://www.rationalresponders.com/google_search_rationalresponders_com

 

Wish I had time now to find threads for you.  Sorry.

 

Thanks Brian.  I did use that before posting and could not come up with anything.  I only really ever read this particular forum, and had seen something similiar before so posting elsewhere never crossed my mind.

 

Thanks everyone for the input.  Good to see you back around Wave.  I always enjoyed reading your posts.  Open minded theists are hard to come by.


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It's female woo-woo. 

It's female woo-woo.  Generally they are quite susceptible due to their more emotional nature and in all likelyhood you will never understand it.  One month it will be crystal healing then six months later it will be something equally weird.

The way I'd counter this is to be equally irrational yourself.  Start having wacky beliefs and back these up by doing things with regard to these beliefs.  When she questions them, as she will, start ranting at her that she doesn't respect your belief.  Nothing like fighting fire with fire.  She should be able to see the logic after you've done some crazy things.

I remember a time when I was younger and still living with my parents and I was trying to find  my football boots 9and I was footie mad) even though I could have sworn I'd put them in a specific place.  After enquiring my mum said she had thrown them away because she was annoyed at having them in her way.  I was really pissed.  About a week later I decided to throw out a piece of glassware, very costly and had great sentimental value to her which was on the sidebaord cos I needed the space.  A few weeks passed and she noticed it had gone.  On asking I told her I had thrown it out cos it was in my way and I needed the space.  She went mental, but I then reminded her of what she had done with my boots.  I then made her agree that if ever there was something in her way rather than get all huffy about it she could simply ask for me to remove it.  Even now she daren't touch anything of mine without asking, so it was a good lesson learned.