Well well well, that "other thread" you started got kicked to the trolling section eh? Pointless as it was, it's no wonder, and so you came back to the "boring discussion" to preach some more. Be that as it may, I have to admit, for once, we completely agree, this IS getting boring.

Since you evidently have nothing more to add to this discussion (because you got caught stealing from your bro, you naughty boy) I have nothing to say to you. And for the rest of the guys and gals here, may I suggest something?:

http://www.postyourimage.com/view_image.php?img_id=yrqyVO4sEUqEvg61202008296

Whats up Chainsaw.

The reason I put that last line, "Latin, since you know so much, James 4:17."  I was addressing Latincanuck, the self proclaimed bible scholar.

First, you have to understand, that the carnel mind is enmity against God.  What that means is, unless regenerated by the Holy Spirit, you could care less about anything I'm saying.  You dont wanna hear about anything spiritual.  You hate God, or you dont believe He exist, Christians are delusional idiots, and anything else vile that you can think of.  This is because the natural human mind is totally depraved.  The gospel, and preaching irritates you to the point of exploding.

Signs of a debased mind:  filled with unrighteousness, sexual immorality(fornicators,homosexuals), wickedness, covetousness(greed), malice, full of envy, murder, strife, deciet, evil-mindedness, whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful, mouth full of cursing and bitterness, your a theif, and there is no fear of God before your eyes. - Apostle Paul, Romans 1:28-31 & 3:9-18,  I know how much you guys hate the bible but I don't wanna plagiarize.

So, how has conversion changed the physical aspects of my life, well for starters I was that whole list I gave you, and more!  There is a radical change in a true believers lifestyle.  Dont get me wrong, we are going to make mistakes till death, plenty at that, because as a believer, we are growing with two different natures.  We are born with a %100 carnel nature, which we will have, this whole life, but once converted, or born again, God gives you a new nature.

An un-regenerate person will go on in their natural lifestyle.  The list I gave you is just normal human being attributes to them, telling lies and cursing people out is just a natural part of life.  They will go to work everyday, they might even have a family to take care, they find fulfillment in materials, and have plenty of hobbies and things to do, "you only have one life to live, and you gotta live it to the full." 

The sign of regeneration is a sudden void in your once thought full lifestyle.  Suddenly, bleakness endows you.  One day your gonna have real problems, and your wife, friends, family, and psychologist aren't gonna be able to help you. 

Now you say, "come on Beatz, everyone comes to the point when they search for purpose."  While this is true, the true believer is no longer searching for purpose friends.  They are no longer living the lifestyle of the american dream, or in a pursuit of happyness.  Those days are over, the physical aspects have changed tremendously, and now he/she wants to go out and tell the world. 

Now, i'm sorry if you think i'm ready and willing to be put to death for my faith in Christ, that im delusional.  

Pointing out a true and false conversion, is tough, but i'll give you some tips.  Do you know them well, and you see them go to church on sundays, but yet they never share their faith with you? - False believer, who thinks by going to church and paying tithes, is going to save them.  Do they live a lifestyle as if God does not exist, participating in worldly affairs, and make outward confessions of faith? - False believer.  Are they still in pursuit of an over abundance of materials?  Or are they content with the little they have?  Do they live a modest life, or do they stand in a pulpit with gold and platinum on, rolex watches, and tell you how much God wants to do the same for you too? - False Prophet.  Is there name Benny Hinn? - False Prophet.

A Christian with a new nature HATES to sin.  It makes him sick to his stomach.  He CANNOT stay in a state of sin his whole life, it is impossible!  If he stays in it till death, he was never a Christian, if you once believed, and now you dont, and you die in that state of unbelief, you were never a Christian.  We are tough to find friends. 

Finding sound doctrine in America is like finding a needle in a haystack.  Jesus spoke of this in His parable of the Wheat and the Tares.  Matthew 13:24-30.  In palestine during that era, tares or darnel(lolium temulentum) bared a close resemblence, not distinguishable till harvest.  

Do I pray all day?  No, I need a lot of help in my prayer life.  But I do pray for you guys, everyday.

Do I proselytise?  Yes, this is all a Christian lives for, and the only reason we are on this earth.  We are daily being conformed into the image of Christ, and while we are here on earth, our soul purpose is to spread the gospel.  This is another way of snuffing out a true Christian, does he/she devout his life to the spread of the gospel?  Dont get me wrong, there are some Christians out there who are what we call, baby Christians, they haven't matured in the faith, and still are having some things tweaked, and thats what the conforming process is about, which only God can do, our whole life is a growth process.

Do I do great works?  One thing about a Christian is the acknowledgement that you are a dirty rotten sinner.  That God is infinetly above you, and you come tremendously short of His glory.  An unregenerte will never admit such, they'll simply say they have shortcomings.  Your works dont mean a thing to God, and plenty of people are going to judgement, thinking they will tell God how much of a good person they were, here on earth, and its not gonna profit them a penny. 

Do I leap tall crosses with a singe bound?  As humorous that was. No.

Am I sober and chaste?  Cant help a smile.

Whats the difference between the elect, and other mystics?  Well, like I said before, Christianity, is a full and complete acknowledgement, that you are not a good person, that your a dirty, filthy, rotten, sinner, and that your good works, and nice attitude mean absolutely nothing to God.  On the other hand, Islam, you gotta have good works in order for Allah to accept you.  Jehoavah's Witness, works.  You've seen them door to door.  Mormans, works.  You've seen them door to door.  Buhdism, and all other ism's, works.  You re-incarnate in your next life, according to your works in the life before.  So the buhdist aren't even who they say they are, since they've been recycled in life so many times.  For all you know, your friend who's a buhdist, is actually a dog from the past, or your pet dog, is actually a former buhdist with bad works.

Do I feel guilty about the reprobate?  You dont even know how much sleep I lose over this.  To me, as a human, I dont understand the ways of God, so naturally, I think its cruel and unusual for God to create a perosn for the soul purpose of being destroyed.  But I have no authority, whatsoever, to reply agaisnt my Creator.  There's not a day that goes by, that I dont almost come to tears ministering to a soul that I dont know is a reprobate or elect.  I pray earnestly, that you guys are elect.  If your with me till this point, could be a chance.  The carnel man most likely would've read two or three paragraphs, and is already in pursuit of the derogatory rebuttles.

As Christians we dont posess a natural human love, human love fails over time.  The love thats stored in us will never fail.  Oh, and especially the love for our Savior, and I'll defend Him till the death, because I love Him.  I'll be called any name you can think of, because I love Him.  I'll get spat upon and beat up, because I love Him.  I love Him, because He first loved me, and in return, this unfailing love He has bestowed upon us will never fail towards Him, or other believers, or enemy's, or family, because its Him that actually loves through us.

Would I surrendor my seat in heaven for my loved ones salvation? Yes, for my wife, and son.  For you guys, no.  I might consider putting my natural life on the line for friends and family like yall though, knowing that im secured in Christ that woudn't make that big of a deal.

A buddy of mine, told me about this pastor who was looking at life in prison.  His lawyer told him there was nothing he could do for him.  He prayed to the Lord, God told him he would only get 25 years.  He told the lawyer, just defend the case as best you can.  He happen to get 25 years, as God promised.  He went to jail, and the first sunday, guards came in and asked if anyone wanted to go to church.  The inmates in his cell block threatened him with with death if he went, they didn't like church folk.  He went anyway.  And for almost 2 months, they wore him out.  Beat downs galore, even the guards whooped him, black eyes, broken noses, ER, the works, and he never faught back.  But he kept going to the service anyway, and one day, coming back from service, they were all ganged up, ready for the routine, but this time one of the inmates said to him,"we decided we dont mind you going to church, your the first real Christian we ever met."  And a lot of people got saved during his sentence.  Thats Christian character.

Brian37, i'm not God so I dont know who the elect are.  So this is what the bible teaches.  Everything is for-ordained before the world began, and your just walking in it.  People whom God chose, were chosen before the foundation of the world, I dont know who those people are, so this is why I spread the gospel message, and because its a command.

Every single human being deserves hell, because according to the bible record, Adam sinned, and since he was the first of our kind(human), all humans that come from his line in return are sinners as well.  Since Adam sinned, our whole race is now under judgement.

Its like this, say if you were the first human, and your blood was innocent blood.  But you and your wife broke a law God gave you, well now you and your wife no longer have innocent blood.  Now you have sinners blood, and if you and your wife decide to have kids, your kids will have the inherited sinners blood as well.  And thats us.  So our whole race is under sin, and God would be just in throwing the whole race in hell.

Oh beatz i nearly forgot, James 4:17, well you have to look at the entire thing, it's talking about those that claim to have faith, but don't follow the laws of god, because those say they have faith in god but continue sinning, they are commiting spiritual adultry (as one preacher put it once as), so yes it is referring to those that know what good they must do but don't in following the bible.

    But since I don't believe in the bible, nor do i have faith in the bible...this goes out the door for me. 

Good timing Latin.

AND based on YOUR model you are contridicting yourself. HOW, if one is going up(and this has been planed even before it happend|) HOW can that person(according to you) if they are going to heaven, be deserving of hell? THAT MAKES NO SENSE

Again, what does make sense, is that you have a warm fuzzy fictional fantacy you like believing. It is nice to think that a man in a cape will swoop down and save you, the problem is beatz, is that is nothing but fiction. 

You know, I once knew this guy, the ex-boyfriend of a friend of mine, who was a devote santerist (is that even a word? anyway, he was into Santeria) One time at a restaurant, I asked him for the salt and he said he "could not risk touching the salt shaker"......

Once I got over my initial bafflement, I asked why? and boy did I got a lecture on that. He explained me all, and I mean ALL *he* thought there is to know about santeria; he told me that spilling salt was of really bad ju-ju, he explained me about this doll-icons he had on his house, about the offerings he had to mede to them, about how he could not walk around naked in front of them (he stressed that point a lot), and for that, he explained this doll-icons would in turn reward him in various ways. He cited as evidence of this the time his whole family got the flu and he didn't (he said he's the only santero in his family) or getting his two dime job as a clerk in a small time law firm.

Finally I asked why did he converted, sure enough came the story of how he was depraved and depressed, suicidal even, and on and on about his life story (it was not particulary hard, many US kids live it today) and how he was down and out until someone told him his "bad luck" was because... well you probably know how this goes. And he converted, and wore a tie everytime he was in the presence of his doll collection, and was happy ever after, until my friend broke up with him, about 10 minutes after we left the restaurant (thank god).

 I'm gonna break my promise of not talking to you, Beatz, but I just had to say this: your story, while special and lifechanging as you find it, I'm sure, is EVERY CONVERTED STORY!! So you found Jesus eh? well that guy I told you about found Orisha, and Tom Cruise found Xenu, and 38 people found Marshall Applewhite, and guess what? all of their results were the same (of course, as we know, not for everyone). The fact that your life changed is not evidence for the legitimacy of the belief *you think* changed you. Granted, it could have motivated you, or given you a sense of meaning and purpose from which you could draw the strength to get your act together, and if so, good for you, but to accept this claim as confirmation of the validity of your belief leads only to the logical conclusion that all beliefs (religious or otherwise, atheism included) must be granted the same validations upon the same grounds, and suffer the contradiction of they being mutually exclusive. Or maybe, just maybe, it means that we should seek up other explanations for this, self-suggestion comes to mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suggestion

 At first I was gonna dismiss you entirely as a "Don't feed the Trolls" case, but yours is a worse case, I'm afraid. You are a converted, an as such we can be sure of at least a few things:

1.-By your own admision, you attribute your life's dramatical improvement to your particular belief. From this we can safely asume that you have developed a sence of dependance to it, far deeper than that of any "regular" christian, who may have not suffered what you claim you had, or has never had his/her life "saved" in a litteral sense, by their beliefs. 

2.-Since dependence, by definition, reffers to a (strong) sence of need or support, then anything that threats the object of your dependence and, in your case, your own sense of self (since you seem to define yourself entirely by your needed beliefs) will then be meet acordingly, either by ignoring it, denying it, or making efforts to remove the threat itself. Your "efforts" to undermind atheism easily fall in the third.

3.-Since dependence can worsen into compulsive addictive behaviours, and yours seem to be the case, any kind of argument or merely intelectual effort to try and disuade you away from it is ultimately useless. All anyone will ever get from trying is an insult and a compulsively repeated "Ah loves mah Gawd" from you.

 From these points, particulary point 3, we can just conclude to call it a day and drop this whole thing since it's imposible to debate anything about theism with someone entirely and fanaticaly dependant to his beliefs. It is, litteraly, as useful as talking to a wall, a very anoying wall. So "Beatz-himself-raptured", get help, YOU NEED IT. And to everyone else, I *really* know it's funny to pick on an easy target (and boy, is this calvinist duck sitting), but at some point we just have to stop wasting bytes on them, I'm sure RRS' server capacity can be put to a better use. This guy won't be convinced or even intriged by our agruments, hell, nothing short of our willingness to breastfeed him and be a "Good Object" in Anna Freud's sense of the word will. So Beatz, enjoy sucking on Jesus tits, good luck getting anything out of 'em though, the guy seemed just too skinny.

God provides food and oxygen to those that curse him? Wait how would he deny oxygen to those that curse him? It's only part of the air in the world, as for food, well we humans have done quiet well (wait not in africa where in your view god denied food to millions of christian ethopians that died of starvation in the 80's) at providing food for ourself in from hunting and farming, and these days mass farming and processing food....no god required, this concept of god, gets well.....non necessary once you actually look at how nature has provided naturally without the need of a supernature, imaginary being, to give us food.

       not if your honest ,  it's all illussion

I actually don't agree with myself ....

It's usually dogmatic or vitriolic. 

Beatz sent an email to the site admin asking how he can have his account deleted. 

MUHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA   You're stuck here in hell for an eternity with no chance to be forgiven beatz!!!  It's only because we love you though, we love you a lot, so so much, we're gonna treat you like shit.  We know you worship people like that. 

Please please, stop kissing my feet.

Funny how these devout Christians such as beatz and wzedi come to this forum expecting to confound us with their detailed knowledge of their petty doctrines and then fall flat on their faces.

They don't realize that a large portion of atheists grew up in the very same churches that they are defending and that, like it or not, we already possess the same knowledge that they do...morons.

 Mickey Mouse can totally give you herpes.

Beatz, you dont get it do you?

The reason you are running away with your tail between your legs, is not because we offended you, but because you are afriad of going outside your comfort zone. You are not used to people challenging your beliefs.

We have living proof of theists every day here that DONT go crying to their mommy, who understand the difference between a person, and what the person claims.

Pinnaple, Wave and Losingstreak are just three examples of people, who I like, but merely find "full of it" on the issue of their deity claims. They didnt run off crying to their mommy because we were blunt with them.

You've acted like you were going to leave before, but yet you still came back and still posted. You need to get over your juvinile fear of us and face us and debate us without being a preacher. You need to think for yourself.

We wont barbique your pets, we wont drink goats blood, and we wont rape and pillage, dispite what the preacher tells you on sunday. If you have any intelectuall courage, you will stay. But if you want to wallow in your self pitty of "They were picking on me" when we were merely criticising your claims, by all means go. We dont need or want whimps here who cant handle a little heat.

Atheists have been demonized, and called every name in the book, we've heard it all before and if each of us had a nickle for every time someone condemned us to hell, we'd make Bill Gates look like a street bum. If you are going to dish it out, you better be willing to take it.

Atheists have the intelectual courage to do what a theist cant. We can face our fears and we can go outside our comfort zone and we are unafraid to challenge any claim made by anyone, even other atheists.

You are running because you are afraid we might be right. We are trying to help you get over that fear and SHOW YOU, that you will not become evil, you will not burn in a fictional hell, you wont go on a killing spree. But you seem to be too much of an intelectuall coward to take on this challenge. Intelectuall growth is never easy, but quite often well worth it.

I love to be prove wrong. I hope you do stay. But, you wont be the first to run with their tail between their legs and you wont be the last. 

   .... pauline Beatz, you must read and digest ALL the recently found "Gnostic" books or continue living in hell. Stop killing the Jesus (buddha) message.

You poor suffering DEVIL, you Hell maker .... 

I bet Beatz would readly fork over the money for tickets to Orlando or LA, not knowing that the founder Walt Disney, didnt believe in is fictional super hero. 

But no, Micky mouse will never give me herpies, just like  just like Hiedi Clume will never give me a blowjob. Make all the Thermodynamic psudo arguments you want, absurd is absurd.

Just like my purple snarfwidgit will never fart a Lamborginni out of it's ass, I wont get 72 virgins, and there is no such thing as "ghostsperm". 

 It isn't just Hell. It's a life of endless self examination. It's the Eye in the sky who knows your hidden thoughts and desires and demands repentance for them.  It a permanent state of arrested development. It's exploiting a child's natural gullibility to believe what it is told by extolling belief in the absence of evidence as the second highest virtue.

 On the contrary, the fact that this life is likely the only existence you'll ever know should serve as the single greatest catalyst for your happiness here and now.  Further, it isn't about who puts what kind of fear into which minds based on a particular set of preconceptions, it's about identifying and acknowledging reality.

I've really been missing out on all this sex, drugs and book writing.  What I don't understand is why you believe life is so horrible. Do you understand why your world philosophy scares the shit out of the rest of us? We don't want you pounding that fatalistic nonsense into the impressionable minds of children who will only serve to perpetuate that same hopelessness into the next generation.

An atheist sees the state of the world and wishes to change it for the better (horrible generalization), a Christian sees the world and runs to the crutch of religion and waits this life out in hope of a better continued existence after death (another horrible generalization). Which reaction is morally superior? 

Most atheists will reject the notion that life without god belief is empty, nor do they wish others to believe such a thing. 

 Because purpose is what you do, not what you believe.

Arbitrary and unsubstantiated value assessment. The gamut of emotions and corresponding values we place on them are determined by every individual person having those experiences, not by third party religious nuts. 

That was so beautiful! *sniff*

I think I love you.

Also I should add that Christianity is a religion that preys on the weak, the stupid and the poor. It is of no coincidence that it is the world’s leading religion. Christianity spread like a disease in ancient Rome, it spread because the Roman populace was essential weak, poor and stupid.

Now I am not saying that it is the same thing these days. Obviously today it has become ingrained in our society so it is now more brainwashing than it is hope for the weak, poor and stupid.

The point is that I am not surprised that you are saying everything that makes humans happy is unimportant. You say that because you are just like one of those ancient Roman citizens. You despise success and you tell yourself it is ok because when we die God will punish all successful people.

You say my life is empty, yet you are the spiteful one who despises people that have bothered to make their lives better than yours. Don't you find that all kind of sad?

Your argument shoots itself in the foot. You suggest God created man and God loves man yet you suggest that God subjects us to misery and despair for 80 or so years before taking us to the happy place.

You do not believe in God, you worship revenge and God is a handy tool to dish out your revenge. Like I said, you are a suicide bomber with a little less conviction.

I always thought it had more to do with the religion being accessible to everybody. The other religions of the time all had limitations for example some accepted only male members others only the rich and some only females. Christianity being accessible to everybody willing to repent was different. It was the religion for the entire family and best of all the poor could worship as it did not require money like the other religions.

In my opinion it spread among the poor because it was the perfect religion for the poor.

Also Cosntantine changing the official religion of Rome to christanity after seeing a metorite that told him to kill didn't hurt. If Constantine did not convert I am sure Christinity would not be what it is today. Rome would enforce its religion after the conversion I am sure everybody had to be Christian.

P.S. When I refer to the poor as weak and stupid I am in no way suggesting that poor people today are weak and stupid. Obviousally todays world is different.  

As far as I remember it was a metorite or something. Maybe the way I read it was that he saw what is thought to have been a metorite. It was before a decsive battle and they did ride into war with the cross painted on their shields.

Roger, most of us consider ourselves agnostic atheists.  Read this article about the definitions of agnostic and atheist.