Hallo, dear atheists
Offline Hi
I was invited here from a Facebook fellow with the promise that you don't delete topics just because you can not refute a statement, idea or theory.
It is not the promise that brought me here.
It is the attitude behind the rule.
Just few seconds ago I was banished in the Facebook group "Atheism: A Non-Prophet Organization".
For the sake of atheism I hope it won't happen here.
I'm a non-religious supporter for the idea of God's existence.
I say that I don't believe in God, because I know that he exists.
Why am I so certain is a long talk and soon I'll post a topic in which I'll try to give you the answer for my certainty.
I'm Bulgarian living in Johannesburg, South Africa.
50 years old male, married, father of two children. Musician who works as a carpenter.
Love science. Love people. Love the Love.
And just to make this topic more entertaining: - Do you know that Darwinism derives from the Bible?
- Login to post comments
I see in the Bible rational parallels to my understanding.
One must not look in the Bible as literally presented truth.
Everything about anything must be presented with words and conceptions close to the understanding of the particular intellect dealing with it.
You can not expect the bible to use the conceptions which I use today.
And it can not be understood if you don't have understanding of the truth, presented with today's conceptions.
In other words, the wording and the conceptions do not change the truth about the subject (God).
That's why Bible is taken as true by people who don't use intellect at all.
Sorry mate but you fail to convince me. Do you want to say that if I will met man who says that he saw my friend killing my mother and he killed my father with help of pink unicorn, should I believe in that story at all ?
Sorry but if I can find shit about dragons,unicorns and bat birds and more disturbing wicked morality with stoning disobeying children and gays I will give no fuck about rest.
I find my reason and Humanism more worth of trust then advices from old narrow-minded priests who dare to think they KNOW which part of Bible is valid about morality and which not.
Ecrasez l'infame!
What you believe is what you were though to believe.
The truth does not depend on your belief.
Narrowness is measured with your mind measure.
No one is stupid in his/her own understanding about his/her wisdom and values.
---
Stupidity met Wisdom:
“You claim that you are wise – she said. – Are you wise?”
“Yes!” – answered Wisdom.
“What makes you sure about that?” – cunningly smiled Stupidity.
“They say that you are stupid. Are you stupid?” – answered with question Wisdom.
“Of course not” – proudly answered Stupidity.
“What makes you so sure about that?” – smiled Wisdom.
Oh, wouldn't it be great if we could all agree on that!
"Science is about uncovering the truth, whether we like it or not." ---source forgotten by me
Wisdom and value are subjective ideas, though. A person who hijacks an airplane and flies it into a skyscraper, killing thousands, because he believes he will become a martyr and will be rewarded with 72 virgins probably doesn't believe he is incredibly insane.
The definition of wisdom, like morality, is the sum of what the majority believe to be the definition within that particular society.
Values are personal by definition, though some people may share values.
I'm not sure what the moral of this story is supposed to be, but I feel like it fails to note the difference between intelligence and wisdom.
A wise person is not necessarily an intelligent person.
An intelligent person is not necessarily a wise person.
And from my own experience, anyone who goes around claiming out loud that they are an intelligent person is probably not an intelligent person.
As one of my favorite adages goes, "The more you learn, the stupider you feel."
A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.
Yes, BELIEF about God (whether it exist or not) is the foundation of ignorance.
Don't have belief about that. Say "I don't know."
Religions are based on belief, therefore they are leading to ignorance.
The moral from the parable is: Everyone is certain in his/her values.
In that case, I think that labeling the characters "Wisdom" and "Stupidity" is perhaps a bad choice on the author's part. I would revise the story and use different characters. Something like this:
A miser and a spendthrift meet.
"Do you think you are wise?" said the miser to the spendthrift.
"Of course," said the spendthrift.
"How do you figure that you are wise?" said the miser.
"I suppose you think that you are wise?" said the spendthrift to the miser.
"Of course," said the miser.
"And how do you figure that you are wise?" said the spendthrift.
A good example of two archetypes that would obviously have different values and philosophies, but where both would somehow feel that their position was justified. =]
But it is not my story.
A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.
Ohh please don't give me this pseudo-philosophical shit and absolute statements. Belief is feeling completely alien to me. I don't believe in what I was though but what I learn myself and choose as logical, moral, scientifically proven and practically useful in life.
People who live as they were learn are BELIEVERS. They hate this, do that, because their Church says so. Minority are ideological fanatics, majority never learn how to think independently and will stay in influence of clergy. Clergy only secures its own interest and it has no use at all.
I don't care who is not stupid in his/her own understanding or BELIEF, I care what is stupid by comparison, example, proof, science.
If you call wisdom, double standards and wicked morality, denying proof as intelligent, so sorry Truden but we have really different mind and moral measures. Nice night.
Ecrasez l'infame!
Non-answer. ? or did I miss a yes or no answer in there ?
And you use a generic term god rather than referring to Yahweh the god of Mount Sinai specifically
May I try again
? do you believe that the Bible is the Word of God and as such should be taken literally as the truth
? or do you pick and choose what parts of the Bible are to be believed
Although I do not expect a yes or no answer, this is just to show you your-self the absurdity of your own belief
If the answer is yes the Bible is the Word of God and as such should be taken literally as the truth, then you should also believe the earth is less than 5000 years old, flat and is held up by pillars
Or if you pick and choose what parts of the Bible are to be believed, ( a much more common view ) then you consider the Bible to be a bunch of stories that are not necessarily true
Blind_Chance, you learn to belief not only in the church.
The life is teaching you.
Intellectuality and belief develop in life.
Everyone is put in different situations and different informational environment and this is actually the life which is teaching everyone of us in different beliefs.
As for the scientific proofs, tell me about them after reading the "50/50" topic.
Rev_Devilin, some questions sound right but only from the intellectual point of the questioner.
If the answer is given with the same intellectual understanding we face the impossibility of having right answer.
1) Is the Bible the word of God?
How do you imagine God, because if the answer is "Yes" you might think that I imagine God the way you imagine it.
2) and should be taken literally as the truth.
If I answer "Yes" you may take my answer and literally apply it to every metaphor and tale in the Bible.
My first answer to you was explaining all this but with different words (on different intellectual level)
I assume that my level or English can not understand your question, so please correct me if my answer is not reflecting your question.
May I try again
? do you believe that the Bible is the Word of God and as such should be taken literally as the truth
? or do you pick and choose what parts of the Bible are to be believed
like I said before I don't expect an answer to this, as either way you become confronted with the absurdity of your own beliefs which is why you have not and cannot answer this simple question,
Just wanted to note:
I was referring to the post on RD.net. The mod spelled it 'spices'.
For Bulgarian to english, you're doing fine, Truden. I would love to see some clear answers to Rev_Devlin's questions. He's been about as specific as one could get yet you seem to still be dodging to me. Just an observation/opinion.
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists.
You are trying to corner me with question which needs clarification.
A blue color is not blue when observed under red light.
I must know what is the color of your intellectual baggage in order to give you straight answer.
My answer is Yes, Yes, but what is your color?
Are you talking about God who stays in heaven and rules over the Earth?
Because if you see such God in the Bible you simply misinterpret the scriptures.
You must also put in account the intellectual limits in the time the scriptures were written.
Enoch also talk (like I do) about observers, but not with the conceptions I use. In Enoch's time humans wouldn't understand my explanation and he had to use explanation which covers humans intellectual limits.
? do you believe the Bible is the literal truth thee word of the god of Mount Sinai Yahweh
hows that ?
And I'm hardly trying to corner you as you have cornered your-self without any help from me, it's just a simple question but if you trap your-self in a absurd belief system, simple questions become complex and un-answerable please don't blame me for this, the fact that you have not answered and cannot answer this question is entirely down to you
My intellectual baggage is truth
So far without much exception I found the truth to be beautifully simple
No point to argue about that, I think ( not believe
) that we just name same things differently. However I still see difference between me and believers: I am able to choose what to think, because I am not tied with my system of beliefs.
And you fail again. For me you topic 50/50 is example of pseudo science. Same religious people say:
a2 + b2 = c2 and E= Mc2 and hey ! evolution is real ( after years of denial ofc ) life is so complicated, physics is so complicated there is NO WAY that there is no Creator.
I just wonder how from mathematical facts, physics and evolution you come to conclusion: there has to be God ? There is no way to came to this kind of conclusion using logic, maths, physics or scientific theories.
Only because you don't understand laws which rule Universe doesn't mean that just behind corner...Pink Unicorn lurks in darkness of your ignorance.
And stop talking bullshit like: <you describe new scientific theory or rather hypothesis > and then you say “Now we can correct the theory by saying that the Universe needs consciousness in order to exist in itself even when it is as small as the smallest imaginable particle. “ because it sounds like a2 + b2 = c2 sooo....GOD EXISTS !
Do you smoke something or you are just lost in your meditations ?
Ecrasez l'infame!
Hell, yeah. They let me in, after all.
Books on atheism, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.
Blind_Chance, do you realize that you don't sound serious.
Saying all that nonsense do not refute my concept.
Well, that's normal for all internet forums.
You don't take me serious because you don't believe that a serious man will talk to people like you.
They already asked me: "Why don't you publish it in a magazine but came to us?"
Any way...
Hope that at least you guys had fun
It's the woman-weilding-a-lightsabre-and-teddybear thing. They keep you around to keep the Christians on their toes.
"In one hand, she holds a symbol of love and affection, indicating that I can trust her completely," says the Christian.
"But in the other hand, she wields a dangerous weapon that could easily go 'king arthur versus the dark knight' on me," says the Christian.
"What is real? The loving teddy bear? The malicious lightsabre? Does this atheist woman appear nice on the surface while having the stability of nitro glycerin?" says the Christian. "Perhaps I could see her true intentions in her gaze, but her eyes are partially veiled behind those dark, intimidating sun glasses, and the parts of them I can see only reveal a chilling, blank poker face."
"And who is she talking to on that headset? Men with guns? Ninjas? The legions of Hell?"
Nothing is scarier than uncertainty, Iruka.
A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.
You call that serious Truden ? Stop kidding me...Your assumption that we can ask you for evidence is far from logic and sanity. If your way of thinking would be correct I can actually "proof" that Thor and Pink Unicorn exists.
So how could it observe universe beginning ? Do you want to say that your Spirit is like Star Wars Force which is part of everything around us ? Holy Shit ! I have convert at once then ! http://www.jedichurch.com/
I totally don't care who asked you to publicize your idea about pre-Universe Spirit. Only because somebody thinks that you are right it doesn't mean you are right. If is no evidence for God/your Spirit existence it is NOT logical/rational to belief that he exists.
I actually cared enough to read all your statements and still for me is pure speculations. All theories about Universe beginning are actually hypothesis. And yours idea is based only on fact that same particle in quantum mechanics exists then there is observer. But who said that Universe has to began with particle which is so small that quantum mechanics rights actually apply to it ? It is just one of few hypothesis. And why, why we have to complicate that hypothesis by adding Holy Spirit ?
Do you know that they actually made movie about your idea ? It is called Final Fantasy, not mentioning Star Wars.
However ignore my sarcasm and fact that many people do not agree with you. Publicize your idea at once ! Who knows maybe there will be use from it ?
It happend with many Great People in the past.
PS.
Stop using absolute statements Mr Truden, it is good habit for people of science.
Ecrasez l'infame!
The point is that "Awareness beforehand" does not complicate any theory but only helps to be corrected
One doesn't have to make up repulsive gravity and infinite space from finite matter.
It is simply appearance in the awareness called Spirit by all religions.
The above quote is from Bertrand Russell - knowledge and logic
For me "offense" is something that I take.
I never take it.
Oh I see so Darwinism originated in the bible too. Do you think maybe if I write a book that is large enough and obscure enough in 1000 years it can be used to debunk or prove theories?
Nostradamus wrote his prediction of the Twin Towers collapsing. Well actually he made an obscure reference to two brother falling but close enough..... right?
If Jesus was born today he would be institutionalized as a schizophrenic with delusions of grandeur.
What sickens me about human history is the ability to take the word of a nutcase seriously. Tom Cruise has managed to successfully turn a clear work of fiction into a religion. And it is a suprise to me that believers of Nostradubmass's obscure bullshit havent started a new religion of their own. But now that I have uttered those words, the consperacy theorists will scratch their chins and go, "Hummn thats a good idea". I wonder who would head that up? Brad Pitt?
If it stands to reason that the ancient Egyptians got it wrong in postulating the sun as a thinking entity, what makes anyone who believes in their current superstition is any less emmune to believing absurdity as fact?
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say. But, Einstein was a genius. You clearly aren't.
Atheist Books
TRANSLATION: BURN!
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
If Jesus was born today he would be institutionalized as a schizophrenic with delusions of grandeur.