ok , so i don`t know if this has been discussed here (a lot i mean, i`m sure the topic is allways present ) , so sorry if this thread may be a smap22. In the watchmaker analogy, a watch is used to show us intelligent design and compares that to the Universe as evidence of design. We know watches are designed because we have past experience with watches, as well as with other man made objects. My question is: What Universe is the Intelligent Design proponent using to compare this Universe with to draw such an analogy? What God did he see create a Universe? - IG
It's usually a comparison to living systems (a reproducing organism/life in it's most basic form, the mammalian antibody-immune response, the blood clotting cascade, etc). All of the above involve several if not many well interlocked, and interconnected well tuned mechanisms that couldn't be arrived at gradually.
Because if you missed on mechanism or any of them didn't work at a high level of the specific function than the whole system wouldn't work and be useless).
Although you can say the universe is pretty well tuned... Gravity isn't so strong that universe is a giant black hole, yet isn't so weak that the universe would instantly superexpand into heat death. The strong nuclear force is strong enough that elements larger much than hydrogen (helium, oxygen, carbon, potassium, magnesium, iron, etc) can exist, etc.
This is a quote from one of the threads here
So here is the way I see it : To assume that because life exists in the universe, then the universe is perfect for life , and furthermore , that the only reason why the universe is/can be perfect for life is that the universe was created in a certain specific way , within certain parameters is an in enormous arrogant (makes me sick) , ignorant assumption .
Look at it this way : The manifestation of matter we refer to as (carbon-based) life exists because it can exist : Too simple? I know , fundies NEED reason , and they need a reasone as in an clear "INTENT" , "action" and "consequence " sequence . So I`ll try again . Because the universe exists , and it has certain propretys that define and affect the matter and energy in it, at some point , at some place in the universe , matter (i wanted to say "came to organize" but i`ll just keep it simple , agnoledge that i don`t know how) is organized in a way we refer to as life . Too random for your taste? Chanches of it happening are 1 in 100000000000000squared? Well if you look at chanches from a gamblers perspective , and assume that only one outcome is the "good" one...maybe , but in my humble opinion , this ( i insist to use "organization of matter" when i refer to life) organization of matter is not the "best" , the "worst" or the "average" outcome , it just is. Best , worst , optimal , these are all subjective biased viewpoints , I`m darn sure that right now the pure-energy-beeings-that-can-only-live-inside-a-molted boulder wonder why the hell god cursed them and did not make an universe "just perfect , optimal for them" Well I`m sure you need attention , you want to feel special , but to assume that this entire universe is the way it is just so you can go to church and talk to your psycho friend in the sky is downright stupid , arogant...but wait...i know what you`re all about...you`re just scared . The posibility that actualy you are the way you are because you perfectly fit in this universe , and not the other way around scares the hell out of you
Now i`m not saying that the universe is one big lump of chaos with no rules , don`t come bashing with that , I`m just saying that all we can do is observe certain fenomenons and interactions within this universe , experiment and try to draw conclusions , and find patterns , constants , reasons , mechanisms , so that we can gain an understanding on why things are the way they are . But to jump from this and assume that "reason"="intention" and attempt to project ourselves onto these realities so that we can make them more confortable (GOD is just man`s projection upon the universe , man attributing "human" atributes to the universe) is a huge mistake. So maybe we have proven the earth isnt the center but we still need to prove to a lot of people that human isnt the center , and most certanly carbon-based life isnt the center either .
But i admit that some parts of the inteligent design theory seem valid to me , at least requarding celular lifeforms and celular mechanisms , but I do not understad why you think that proving evolution wrong instantly makes your creationism right . Oh then again I do know why . It is because of the beligerant nature of your religion . You win by default if you`re the last one standing don`t you , so youtry to win the only way your religions knows to . By destroying alternatives . Know your foe is must in combat right? So you try to know me ...but all you manage is to project yourself onto me just as you project yourself onto the universe .EVERYTHING has to be like you , you can only grasp and understand what you can assimilate , so you try to convert everyone , and because you can`t convert the "laws of physical reality" , you personify them , you put a masks that resembles you on them , then you inbue them with your weak disturbed cowardly personality and call the result GOD. Sure , my lack of belief in a fictional god is a religion , it must be , after all , how can you fight me if we`re not in the same" plane of existance ". I try to disprove your god and you try to disprove what you consider to be my set of believes . Newsflash : If you manage to PROVE evolution wrong , i`ll be a happy happy man , i`ll love you and buy you a beer for PROVING i was wrong , and allowing me to take yet another step in learning . But i won`t be a theist . For the sake of the argument , if you PROVE me your friend in the sky , the bible guy is real , I`d love you even more but i still won`t be a theist . Sorry mate , Mom and dad lived in communism , i spent my childhood in communism , and the last thing i can picture myself doing is worshiping a sadistic dictator just because he is stronger then me
disclaimer for this unstructured rant : Just after i started this some of those Jehova guys rang my dor , couple with a little kid , they handed me one of there lilttle comics books and pushed the kid (he was like 5) inside first then they steped in . Second time this year i get a visit from them , so i told him to get the fuck out of my house before I slap him kick his face ..he left then i got in an argument with my overzealous christian mom for beeing an evil evil man...how could i kick them out...that kid was so sweeet...she would have handed the cookies.Oh well I know i`m a satanist , after all i`m into metal , even scarry evil goth metal , i tend to dress in black , i read all those evil evil assimov and herbert shit and i totaly hate christmas spirit .
yeah this is me angry...i`m Henry , I`m from romania , glad to join u guys , I`ll be around in a more cheerfull mood