Hitler and Stalin weren't atheists! - Evidences

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Hitler and Stalin weren't atheists! - Evidences

Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin weren't atheists - Evidences

 


 

Last edition: 2007-10-11 / Believers often accuse atheists, that Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin were atheists... they both were not! Here I collected some evidences, but need some grammar check by Americans or British. I think, this text (especially about Stalin) can be useful in debates. Feel free to use this information anywhere and anyhow you want. Please inform me if you will notice misrepresentation of facts. Vaidotas Jocys (vaidotas@jocys.com) http://vjocys.blogspot.com/

 

DICTATORS "ATHEISTS"

 


 

Adolf Hitler (1889 – 1945) and The Order of The Jesuits

 

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Believers like to lie, that Adolf Hitler was an atheist and killing Jews has nothing to do with religion. The truth is that Adolf Hitler was a Roman Catholic. With his speeches and actions he let to understand not once, that he believes in God, pursues God’s will-plan and even is protected by God. Such thought was obsessed Hitler after many unsuccessful attempts to kill him. And now few quotes form "atheist" Adolf Hitler’s personal book "My Struggle" ("Mein Kampf"):

 

Volume One: A Reckoning (Erster Band: Eine Abrechnung)

 

2. Years of Study and Suffering in Vienna: "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

 

2. Kapitel - Wiener Lehr und Leidensjahre: "So glaube ich heute im Sinne des allmächtigen Schöpfers zu handeln: Indem ich mich des Juden erwehre, kämpfe ich für das Werk des Herrn."

 

6. War Propaganda: "Certainly we don't have to discuss these matters with the Jews, the most modern inventors of this cultural perfume. Their whole existence is an embodied protest against the aesthetics of the Lord's image."

 

6. Kapitel - Kriegspropaganda: "Mit den Juden, als den modernen Erfindern dieses Kulturparfüms, braucht man sich aber darüber wahrhaftig nicht zu unterhalten. Ihr ganzes Dasein ist der fleisch-gewordene Protest gegen die Ästhetik des Ebenbildes des Herrn."

 

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8. The Beginning of My Political Activity: "What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, the sustenance of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the Creator of the universe."

 

8. Kapitel - Beginn meiner politischen Tätigkeit: "Für was wir zu kämpfen haben, ist die Sicherung des Bestehens und der Vermeh-rung unserer Rasse und unseres Volkes, die Ernährung seiner Kinder und Reinhal-tung des Blutes, die Freiheit und Unab-hängigkeit des Vaterlandes, auf daß unser Volk zur Erfüllung der auch ihm vom Schöpfer des Universums zugewiesenen Mission heranzureifen vermag."

 

Volume Two: The National Socialist Movement (Zweiter Band: Die nationalsozialistische Bewegung)

 

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1. Philosophy and Party: "Whoever would dare to raise a profane hand against that highest image of God among His creatures would sin against the bountiful Creator of this marvel and would collaborate in the expulsion from Paradise."

 

1. Kapitel - Weltanschauung und Partei: "Wer die Hand an das höchste Ebenbild des Herrn zu legen wagt, frevelt am gütigen Schöpfer dieses Wunders und hilft mit an der Vertreibung aus dem Paradies."

 

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10. Federalism as a Mask: As far as regards that kind of 'patriotic' warrior, on behalf of the National Socialist Movement and therefore of the German people I pray with all my heart: "Lord, preserve us from such friends, and then we can easily deal with our enemies."

 

10. Kapitel - Der Föderalismus als Maske: "Ich kann, was diese Art von "völkischen" Kämp-fern betrifft, der nationalsozialistischen Bewegung und da-mit auch dem deutschen Volke aus aufrichtigstem Herzen nur wünschen: "Herr, bewahre sie vor solchen Freunden, auch sie wird mit ihren Feinden dann schon fertig werden."

 

13. German Alliance Policy after the War: "Almighty God, bless our arms when the hour comes. Be just, as Thou hast always been just. Judge now if we deserve our freedom. Lord, bless our struggle."

 

13. Kapitel - Deutsche Bündnispolitik nach dem Kriege: "Allmäch-tiger Gott, segne dereinst unsere Waffen; sei so gerecht, wie du es immer warst; ur-teile jetzt, ob wir die Freiheit nun verdie-nen; Herr, segne unseren Kampf!"

 

14. Eastern Orientation or Eastern Policy: "And this action is the only one which, before God and our German posterity, would make any sacrifice of blood seems justified."

 

14. Kapitel - Ostorientierung oder Ostpolitik: "Und diese Aktion ist die einzige, die vor Gott und unserer deutschen Nachwelt einen Bluteinsatz gerecht-fertigt erscheinen läßt."

 

Adolf Hitler saw atheism as a danger:

 

Adolf Hitler said in 1941-10-14: "Educated man always stands in Reverence facing Creation; he can’t unriddle it’s sensible Greatness; but Uneducated man is in Danger to proceed to Atheism, which means he will be Brutish." (Adolf Hitler: Monologues from the Führer's Headquarter, page 41, published by Orbis Verlag in 2000)

 

Adolf Hitler sagte am 14. Oktober 1941: "Der gebildete Mensch steht immer in Ehrfurcht vor der Schöpfung, die er nicht enträtseln kann, deren Größe er aber empfindet; der Ungebildete hingegen ist in Gefahr, zum Atheismus, das ist zum Vertiert sein, überzuspringen." (Adolf Hitler: Monologe aus dem Führerhauptquartier, seite 41, Orbis Verlag, 2000)

 

"We don't want to educate anyone in atheism." - Adolf Hitler (Table-Talk p. 6)

 

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.” (1941, Said by Hitler to General Gerhart Engel) - Adolf Hitler, from John Toland [Pulitzer Prize winner], Adolf Hitler, New York: Anchor Publishing, 1992

 

"I learned much from the Order of the Jesuits…until now there has never been anything more grandiose on the earth than the hierarchical organization of the Catholic Church. I transferred much of this organization into my own party." - Hermann Rauschning, Hitler Said To Me (1939), 266-267.

 

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Saviour as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

 

Hitler saw himself as a reformer of Christianity, not as fighter against Christianity. He newer renounced Christ and his Christianity even in Table Talk. He fought against Christians, who, as he thought, corrupted Christianity. He saw himself as Jesus and Martin Luther.

 

"Luther had the merit of rising against the Pope and the organisation of the Church. It was the first of the great revolutions. And thanks to his translation of the Bible, Luther replaced our dialects by the great German language!" (Hitler / Table-Talk p. 9)

 

"The decisive falsification of Jesus's doctrine was the work of St. Paul. He gave himself to this work with subtlety and for purposes of personal exploitation. For the Galiean's object was to liberate His country from Jewish oppression. He set Himself against Jewish capitalism, and that's why the Jews liquidated Him." (Hitler / Table-Talk, p. 76)

 

"Christ was an Aryan, and St. Paul used his doctrine to mobilise the criminal underworld and thus organise a proto-Bolshevism." (Hitler / Table-Talk, p. 143)

 

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Just because Hitler tried to create his own version of Christianity and prove, that Jesus was not a Jew, and therefore argued with other Christians - that does not make him unbeliever or anti-Christian. Christians always struggle between each other for "true" Christianity even till blood and accuse each other that their opponents are not "true" Christians – you do the same thing with Hitler. Hitler didn’t reject Christianity as such. He just criticized it’s organized version and therefore later (1936-1938) switched from "Official Christianity" branch to "The Order of Jesuits" branch.

 

If Protestant fights against Catholic version of Christianity, that doesn’t mean that Protestant is not a Christian and doesn’t belong to Christianity. Some people are believers with their personalized-modified understanding of religion or God. And they fight against other religions or organized their forms, or they fight even against organized their own religion. For example: they can think that it is corrupted and perverted, greedy or there is no need in organized religion - God must be private thing, etc..

 

There are no identical standard of Christianity, just each group declare themselves as "standard". Every group and every person is slightly different and has his own modifications of God and how to worship Him. Differences appear from different/subjective experience and knowledge in life and secondary – because of personal modifications. And these modifications always come from a wish to satisfy personal needs with less expense and more easily to pass to Heaven. So if "true" Christianity for you, Mormon or Pope is ONE thing, for Hitler, Mother Teresa, Orthodox or some guy in India it will be OTHER thing. Therefore Christians will always fight for "true" Christianity between each other, as personal needs between people often come in conflict and nobody wants to see himself as fallible. But this doesn't make them non-Christians. Everybody wants to take more than to give. Hitler modified Christianity to make it more profitable for himself (as ALL Christians do without exception – just not all want to admit this for themselves) and honestly believed, that these modifications leads to "true" Christianity. He believed that old type organized Christianity is corrupted. People, who made profit form Hitler’s changes, honestly admitted that these changes led TO more "true" Christianity. Who lost from these changes, started to claim that they led away FROM "true" Christianity. Today‘s Christians are not the ones, who made profit from Hitler’s ideas and changes, …and entirely just because he brought shame on Christianity as a Christian. So of course, today’s Christians opposing Hitler’s changes on Christianity and identify them as factors which distanced Christianity from "true". Therefore they are opposing Hitler’s own identification as "true" Christian, because he does not match today’s Christians subjective conception of what is "true" Christian. Christians just want to wash their hands now and exclude from Christianity members who put them in uncomfortable position.

 

Hitler believed in Christian God, in Christ, went to Christian church and prayed. He has all main Christianity bases. He was the same candy of sh*, just in different wrapping. What about killing? There is one True Christian besides Hitler – God, who lied, cheated, killed, robbed and was a paedophile. So everyone, who commits all these sins, can be Christian too (unless God is an Atheist).

 

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"Atheist" Hitler’s "atheistic" army wore their "atheism" propagating sign on their military uniforms, like buckles "God With Us" ("Gott mit uns"). Some ideas how to persecute and exterminate Jews Hitler just copied from previous Popes. For example to wear special signs and ghettoize Jews was "brilliant" idea of Pope, made-up and described in 1555 year in document "Cum nimis absurdum". It is not big secret that present Pope Joseph Ratzinger was member of "Hitler’s-Youth" ("Hitler-Jugend"). Fascism with Mussolini borned and developed in Italy too. People, who know geography well, can tell easily where Vatican is Smiling.

 


 

Joseph Stalin (1878 – 1953) and Orthodox Christian Church of Russia

 

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Not only Adolf Hitler was a believer. Josef Stalin - The bloodiest communist regime dictator was not an ATHEIST(!), but RELIGIOUS COMMUNIST. He was believer. Stalin born in 1878, received more power and started his mass murder journey through corpses in 1922 and died in 1953.

 

1. Stalin grow-up in religious family and it was planed that he will become a priest. Therefore Stalin received religious education in Gori Church‘s School (from 1888-09-... to 1894-06-...) and Tbilisi Priest‘s Seminary (from 1894-09-01 to 1899-07-29) which he didn’t accomplished because he entered Revolution movement. Likely, those ideas about defending poor people and that rich people will go to hell or at least for them will be hard to go to (communistic) heaven... no doubt that Stalin collected such ideas from his religious education. In the Bible itself there are explanations that it will be hard to go to Heaven for rich people and they are oppressors of the poor. "All capital/property is evil and rich people must gift their property to poor" – was not too far from The Bible and teachings of Christ as Christians wants to present now. For example:

 

Bible:NT:Mat:19:23-24 And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

 

Bible:NT:Ja:2:5-6 "Listen, my beloved brethren. Has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which he has promised to those who love him? But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you, is it not they who drag you into court?"

 

Bible:NT:Ja:5:1 "Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you."

 

Bible shows that if you want to be real believer, you must resign your possessions to poor and have common property, like communists and planned:

 

Bible:NT:Lu:12:33 "Sell your possessions, and give alms; provide yourselves with purses that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys."

 

Bible:NT:Mar:10:21-22 And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said to him, "You lack one thing; go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." At that saying his countenance fell, and he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions.

 

Bible:NT:Ac:2:44-45 And all who believed were together and had all things in common; and they sold their possessions and goods and distributed them to all, as any had need.

 

Sometimes people think that communism (latin: commun=to share / collective property – no private property) was atheistic idea. But they forgot, how property was and is managed in Church and monasteries, where is no private property – this is pure communism in all its glory. It seems that Church and monasteries adopted and realized "atheistic" ideas of shared property thousands of years before revolution in Russia even started. And when you read the Bible, you can see that Christ followers and his band lived as pure atheists too.

 

2. Stalin wrote poems in Georgian language. They are so good that were being published in local magazines. Few fragments sounds so (translation from Georgian to Russian language by L.Kotiukov (Л. Котюков), Newspaper "Duel" N10(101)1999-03-09. "Poet Josef Dzhugashvili" (Газета "Дуель", "Поет Иосиф Джугашвили" N 10(101) 1999-03-09. Б.М. Гунько)):

 

(...) In his burden and song

like the beam of the Sun,

lived great truth –

Divine dream.

 

(...) But people who forgot God,

with darkness in their hearts,

instead of wine served poison

to him in the cup.

 

And told to him: "Damn you!

Drink this cup to the bottom!...

And your song is alien for us,

and we don’t need your truth!"

 

В напеве его и в песне,

Как солнечный луч чиста,

Жила великая правда -

Божественная мечта.

 

Но люди, забывшие Бога,

Хранящие в сердце тьму,

Вместо вина отраву

Налили в чашу ему.

 

Сказали ему: "Будь проклят!

Чашу испей до дна!...

И песня твоя чужда нам,

И правда твоя не нужна!"

 

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3. Stalin’s daughter Svetlana Alliluyeva Stalin said (documentary "Mysteries of the Century: Kremlin Kids" ("Тайны века" - "Дети Кремля") 2003-03-19, 1 Channel 1 Russia), how Stalin told her that Christ existed.

 

Journalist: It is interesting, that from all Kremlin’ residents, maybe, just Stalin believed in God...

 

S.Alliluyeva: In fathers library, between other books, were few tomes of "Christ". It was history of Christ written by vox populist Morozov. I said to my father: "But Christ didn’t exist!" and he answered "Oh no, Christ, surely existed."

 

Ведущий: Интересно, что из обитателей Кремля, наверное, только Сталин верил в Бога...

 

С.Аллилуева: У отца среди книг в библиотеке стояли несколько томов "Христос". Это история Христа, написанная народовольцем Морозовым. Я сказала отцу: "Но ведь Христос не существовал!". А он ответил "Да нет, Христос, конечно, существовал".

 

In other-bigger Interview to Russian magazine "Version" ("Версия") and second Russian TV channel RTR (1998) Svetlana spoke more about her father’s belief in God. She said, that later Stalin told her history of Christ. And she thinks that he was believer.

 

Stalin‘s wife Nadezhda maybe was an atheist, because she denied for nannies to talk about God with kids. But it was not big problem - by official version (maybe with God‘s help Smiling Nadezhda shoot herself in 1932. Maybe it is symbolic, that her name means "Hope" Smiling. Stalin’s daughter said that after mother’s death Stalin lost everything human in him. We can conclude from this, that Stalin told about Christ to his daughter before year 1932. Other thing, Stalin told about Christ to his daughter after she showed interest in Stalin‘s personal library book from series "Christ".

 

4. At meeting of the Political Bureau of the Central Committee in 1933-09-12 Stalin gave speech where he told not to destroy and but prevent churches. Fragment of his speech sounds so: "Central Committee considers that it is impossible to designing buildings with destruction of temples and churches, what we must treat like monuments of architecture by Old Russian heritage. Agencies of the Soviet authority and workers'-villagers' militia are obliged to take measures down to the disciplinary and party responsibility on protection of monuments of architecture by Old Russian heritage."

 

Выписка из протокола заседания политбюро ЦК от 12.09.33 г.: "ЦК считает невозможным проектирование застроек за счет разрушения храмов и церквей, что следует считать памятниками архитектуры древнерусского зодчества". Органы Советской власти и рабоче-крестьянской милиции обязаны принимать меры вплоть до дисциплинарной и партийной ответственности по охране памятников архитектуры древне русского зодчества." Секретарь ЦК И.Сталин.

 

5. Under Stalin‘s insisting In 1939-11-11, Politburo of the Central Committee has admitted prosecutions of believers "inexpedient". In 1939-11-11 Stalin canceled Lenin's instruction from May, 1st, 1919 for N 13666-2 "About struggle against priests and religion" and gave orders to People's Commissariat of Internal Affairs (NKVD) to release from custody already arrested priests "if activity of these citizens didn’t harm the Soviet authority".

 

Выписка из протокола заседания политбюро ЦК от 11.11.39 г. В отношении к религии, служителям Русской Православной Церкви и православно верующим ЦК постановляет:

 

1) Признать нецелесообразным впредь практику органов НКВД СССР в части арестов служителей русской православной церкви, преследование верующих.

 

2) Указание товарища Ульянова (Ленина) от 1 мая 1919 года за №13666-2 "О борьбе с попами и религией", адресованных пред. ВЧК товарищу Дзержинскому и все соответствующие инструкции ВЧК-ОГПУ-НКВД, касающиеся преследования служителей русской православной Церкви и православно верующих, - отменить.

 

3) НКВД произвести ревизию осужденных и арестованных граждан по делам, связанных с богослужительской деятельностью. Освободить из-под стражи и заменить наказание на не связанное с лишением свободы осужденным по указанным мотивам, если деятельность этих граждан не нанесла вреда советской власти.

 

4) Question about destiny of believers from other confessions, who are under arrest, CC will rise additionally.

 

From section four we can see that Stalin was not well-wished for all religions - he defended just HIS own religion - Christian deviation: Russian Orthodox Church.

 

4) Вопрос о судьбе верующих, находящихся под стражей и в тюрьмах, принадлежащих иным конфессиям, ЦК вынесет решение дополнительно.

 

Секретарь ЦК И.Сталин

 

Lenin was an atheist and banned religion mostly because Church was rich and supported Monarchy-Tsar (Bible:NT:Ro:13:1 "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.") - was against parliamentarian government system and by that government was hanged his brother. Other thing, psychologist Giunter Cruse, who examined Vladimir Ulajnov’s (Lenin) genealogy tree, found that Lenin’s grandmother was burned on fire as which. Lenin has his reasons not to like Church. But even Lenin scraped with Stalin and tried to keep him from power until was alive because of Stalin’s cruelty. Why Russians hated church, especially after war? Church was flirting with Nazi in World War Two (Pius XI signed friendly agreement with Mussolini in 1929 and with Hitler in 1934). Fascism was born with Mussolini in Italy (Vatican’s cradle). It is good that USSR government didn’t see pedophile scandals - situation could be worse (no talking about Inquisition ant Crusaders). So it is normal, that Russians revenged to all, who collaborated with Nazi and fascists.

 

6. Juri Solowjew (Stalin’s Personal Guard for 10 years) claimed that in World War Two Stalin went to small Kremlins Church. (French, Austrian, Germany and Russian documentary "Inside the Kremlin: In the Heart of Russia" by Thomas Schreiber (2005, NDR Television in cooperation with Channel 1 Russia). It could be between years 1939 and 1945.

 

In interview to newspaper "Area the Falcon" with the head of the "Temple of All Sacred" Michael Aleksandrovich Rodin told: "Joseph Vissarionovich comes during war in our temple to pray. And even today there are parishioners alive - a few very older persons which remember this fact and saw Stalin themselves. Stalin as tell, came to a temple three times and long faced to two icons - Nikolay Chudotvorets and Kazan Divine Mother. Joseph Vissarionovich has not stood all service, its visits last 15-20 minutes."

 

В интервью для газеты "Район Сокол" старостой Храма Всех Святых Михаил Александрович Родин сказал: "Сам Иосиф Виссарионович заезжал во время войны в наш храм помолиться. У нас и сегодня живы прихожане - несколько очень пожилых людей, которые помнят этот факт и сами видели Сталина. Сталин, как рассказывают, приезжал в храм трижды и подолгу стоял перед двумя иконами - Николая Чудотворца и Казанской Божьей Матери. Всю службу Иосиф Виссарионович не выстаивал, его визиты длились минут по 15-20."

 

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7. In 1942-1943 Stalin started to organze meetings with priests and incited to reopened Churches, seminaries, academies, publish religious magazines in "communistic speed" (as quick as possible) and promised full support. There are some documented speeches from these meetings:

 

M.I.Odincov "Russian patriarchs of XX century" year 1994, № 34 note of G.G.Karpov about Russian patriarchs welcome by J.V.Stalin 286 page (Одинцов М.И. "Русские патриархи ХХ века." 1994 год, № 34 записка Г.Г.Карпова о приеме И.В.Сталиным иерархов Русской Православной Церкви 286 стр.).

 

"Comrade Stalin told: "Well, as you want, this is your business and if you want theological class, begin with them, but the Government will not have objections and against opening seminaries and academies."

 

"Тов. Сталин сказал: "Ну, как хотите, это дело ваше, а если хотите богословские курсы, начинайте с них, но Правительство не будет иметь возражений и против открытия семинарий и академий."

 

"Comrade Stalin has told, that the church can count on comprehensive support of the Government in all questions connected with its organizational strengthening and development inside of the USSR and that, as he spoke about the organization of spiritual educational institutions, not objecting to opening of seminaries in dioceses so there cannot be obstacles and to opening managements of candle factories at eparchial and other manufactures."

 

"Тов. Сталин сказал, что церковь может рассчитывать на всестороннюю поддержку Правительства во всех вопросах, связанных с ее организационным укреплением и развитием внутри СССР, и что, как он говорил об организации духовных учебных заведений, не возражая против открытия семинарий в епархиях, так не может быть препятствий и к открытию при епархиальных управлениях свечных заводов и других производств."

 

"Then, addressing to me, Stalin has told: "It is necessary to provide the right of the bishop to dispose church's sums (money). It is no need to do obstacles for the organization of seminaries, candle factories, etc."

 

"Затем, обращаясь ко мне, т. Сталин сказал: "Надо обеспечить право архиерея распоряжаться церковными суммами. Не надо делать препятствий к организации семинарий, свечных заводов и т. д.".

 

8. English historian Simon Sebag Montefiore studied Stalin’s hobbies and personal library, what Stalin liked to read, what kind of marks he left in his books. He found that Stalin liked to quote long quotes from the Bible. Stalin left such mark about God in the book by Anatole France "Last pages. Dialogues under a rose. About God": "Don‘t know traces, don‘t see. There is no Him for them." ("Следов не знают, не видят. Его для них нет."). It seems that Stalin thought he knew God’s traces and saw God, not like others.

 

Stalin "denied categorically to prescribe atheistic literature to his personal library, fastidiously calling it ""antireligious waste-paper (junk)"". ("Secret life of Stalin : By materials of his books and archive : According to Stalinism" by Ilizarov.B.S. 2004)

 

Сталин "категорически запрещал выписывать в свою личную библиотеку атеистическую литературу, брезгливо называя ее "антирелигиозной макулатурой."" (Илизаров Б. С. "Тайная жизнь Сталина : По материалам его библиотеки и архива : К историософии сталинизма". 2004)

 

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9. Stalin "hated" religion so much, that in 1951-06-27 he gaved "Stalin’s Prize" to English clergyman Hewlett Johnson. Various prizes under Soviet authority received and other priests.

 

10. Stalin's "pure atheistic" funeral. Honorary guard near Stalin's coffin.

 

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Speech of the most holy patriarch Moscow and all Russia Aleksii before requiem on I.V.Stalin, told in the patriarchal cathedral in day of Stalin's funeral (9.03.1953): "There is no more the great Leader of our people, Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin. Great, moral, public force was abolished: force in which our people felt own force, in which was supervised in the creative works and the enterprises, in which was consoled for many years. There is no area where the deep look of the great Leader would not get. People of a science were surprised by his deep scientific awareness in the diversified areas, by his ingenious scientific generalizations; militaries – by his military genius; people of the most various work invariable received from him strong support and valuable instructions. As ingenious person he opened that was invisible and inaccessible to ordinary mind in each business.

 

About his intense cares and feats during Great Domestic war, about his ingenious management of the military actions, which gave us a victory over the strong enemy and in general above fascism; about his many-sided immense daily works on management, on a management of state affairs - vastly and convincingly spoke and in a press, and, especially, at last farewell today, in day of his funeral, his the nearest co-workers. His name as the advocate of world peace, and his famous acts will live in centuries.

 

We, who gathered for a pray about him, cannot pass with silence of his always benevolent, sympathizing attitude to our church needs. Any question with which we to him addressed, has not been rejected by him; he satisfied all our requests. And a lot of kind and useful, owing to his high authority, it is made for our Church by our Government.

 

Memory of him for us unforgettable, and our Russian Orthodox Church, mourning over his leaving from us, escorting him to last way, "in a way of all word", with a hot pray.

 

In these sad for us days, from different directions of our Fatherland from bishops, clergy and believers, and from abroad from Heads and representatives of Churches as orthodox, and other-believers, I receive set of telegrams which are informing about prays about him and condoling with us on the occasion of this sad loss for us.

 

We prayed for him when the message about his heavy illness has come. And now, when there is no more him, we pray for the world of his immortal soul.

 

Yesterday our special delegation in structure of high ordained metropolitan Nikolay; the representative of the episcopate, clergy and believers of Siberia of archbishop of the Palladium; the representative of the episcopate, clergy and believers of Ukraine of archbishop Nikona and ??? Nikolay, has assigned a wreath to his coffin and has bowed on behalf of Russian Orthodox Church to his dear ashes.

 

The pray, fulfilled with Christian love, reaches the God. We believe, as our pray about deceased will be heard by the Lord. Both to our loved and unforgettable Joseph Vissarionovich we devoutly, with deep, passionate love proclaim eternal memory."

 

Речь святейшего патриаха Московского и всея Руси Алексия перед панихидой по И.В.Сталине, сказаная в патриаршем соборе в день его похорон (9.03.1953 г.): "Великого Вождя нашего народа, Иосифа Виссарионовича Сталина, не стало. Упразднилась сила великая, нравственная, общественная: сила, в которой народ наш ощущал собственную силу, которою он руководился в своих созидательных трудах и предприятиях, которою он утешался в течение многих лет. Нет области, куда бы не проникал глубокий взор великого Вождя. Люди науки изумлялись его глубокой научной осведомленности в самых разнообразных областях, его гениальным научным обобщениям; военные - его военному гению; люди самого различного труда неизменно получали от него мощную поддержку и ценные указания. Как человек гениальный, он в каждом деле открывал то, что было невидимо и недоступно для обыкновенного ума.

 

Об его напряженных заботах и подвигах во время Великой Отечественной войны, об его гениальном руководстве военными действиями, давшими нам победу над сильным врагом и вообще над фашизмом; об его многогранных необъятных повседневных трудах по управлению, по руководству государственными делами - пространно и убедительно говорили и в печати, и, особенно, при последнем прощании сегодня, в день его похорон, его ближайшие соработники. Его имя, как поборника мира во всем мире, и его славные деяния будут жить в веках.

 

Мы же, собравшись для молитвы о нем, не можем пройти молчанием его всегда благожелательного, участливого отношения к нашим церковным нуждам. Ни один вопрос, с которым бы мы к нему ни обращались, не был им отвергнут; он удовлетворял все наши просьбы. И много доброго и полезного, благодаря его высокому авторитету, сделано для нашей Церкви нашим Правительством.

 

Память о нем для нас незабвенна, и наша Русская Православная Церковь, оплакивая его уход от нас, провожает его в последний путь, "в путь всея земли", горячей молитвой.

 

В эти печальные для нас дни со всех сторон нашего Отечества от архиереев, духовенства и верующих, и из-за границы от Глав и представителей Церквей, как православных, так и инославных, я получаю множество телеграмм, в которых сообщается о молитвах о нем и выражается нам соболезнование по случаю этой печальной для нас утраты. Мы молились о нем, когда пришла весть об его тяжкой болезни. И теперь, когда его не стало, мы молимся о мире его бессмертной души.

 

Вчера наша особая делегация в составе Высокопреосвященного митрополита Николая; представителя епископата, духовенства и верующих Сибири архиепископа Палладия; представителя епископата, духовенства и верующих Украины архиепископа Никона и протопресвитера о. Николая, возложила венок к его гробу и поклонилась от лица Русской Православной Церкви его дорогому праху. Молитва, преисполненная любви христианской, доходит до Бога.

 

Мы веруем, что и наша молитва о почившем будет услышана Господом. И нашему возлюбленному и незабвенному Иосифу Виссарионовичу мы молитвенно, с глубокой, горячей любовью возглашаем вечную память."

 

Image

 

So, Stalin’s love to religion was not just right before his death, but started much earlier. Some people say, that Stalin reopened religion just because Hitler in Germany planed to attack Russia (therefore it is strange why Stalin didn’t believed, that Germany attacking USSR borders and argue that it is just propaganda by enemies right after invasion)... blah blah blah. Ok, maybe he told stories of Christ to his daughter Svetlana because he afraid Hitler too Smiling? But even if so... it seems, that Stalin understood power of religion and if you want to send people to death ant kill others... the best help for that purpose can provide... religion. When you know, that Heaven is waiting for you after death, you can die with smile on your face. For deserts to religion and recreation of church in Russia, some groups even started initiative to declare Stalin as saint.

 

Why Stalin was so cruel? Violent father, Church School and Priest’s Seminary formed his view to the World and how he can treat it. This had impact to his actions.

 

I.V.Stalin remembered: "From the protest against a humiliating regime and Jesuit methods which were in seminary, I was ready to become and really became the revolutionist, the supporter of Marxism (auth. notice: not(!) Atheism), as really revolutionary doctrine." – so we can thank for Stalin what he was to …Priest’s Seminary.

 

И.В. Сталин вспоминал: "Из протеста против издевательского режима и иезуитских методов, которые имелись в семинарии, я готов был стать и действительно стал революционером, сторонником марксизма, как действительно революционного учения."

 


 

USSR and COMMUNISM

 

Image Image

 

USSR was not an ATHEISTIC, but COMUNISTIC/SOCIALISTIC republic’s union. People often don’t understand difference between Communism/Socialism and Atheism/Theism – one ideology is about "humans(rich) vs humans(poor)", other - "humans(all) vs God". Church functioned and was not fully oppressed in USSR – maybe, because KGB very successfully used it to spy on people through confessions. Church in USSR was separated from Government IN THE SAME WAY(!) as in USA, European Union and other civilized parts of the World. Because property of Churches was nationalized, Church and believers (especially in the West) started to conclude that it was "Atheistic" regime (of course, just atheists are capable to kill, rob and take neighbors property by force Smiling, but they "forgot" that property (in the same way) was taken from all atheists too... but atheists didn’t conclude that it was "Christian" regime. Thing is that Church had more property than atheists (absolutely minority in society) at that time. Russia just now reached 24% atheists in state. Christianity itself has large experience in killing and robbing for example in the same Crusaders – you don't need to be an atheist for that. Religion organized predatory invades itself not once – it is enough to read The Bible or learn history – it is in religion’s blood. In Hitler’s Germany, Stalin’s Russia, Mao’s China, Pol Pot’s Cambodia (Theravada Buddhist 95%, other 5%) statistically almost all (~100%) people at that time were BELIEVERS! For example in Lithuania in "1923 population census" 100% of population were believers. It is wrong to think, that in these countries (like Russia in 1917) communistic revolution (Great October Socialist Revolution) was realized by atheists – they were absolutely minority. There were believers who marched with guns on the streets. Even in North Korea church’s influence to government is minimized but churches and monasteries are open. Communism it is not about believing or unbelieving in GOD (atheism/theism), but about COLLECTIVE PROPERTY (commun=collective/shared). Communism didn’t destroyed religion but preserved it. In Communistic block countries there are more believers than in Western Europe (capitalistic countries). For example atheist‘s/agnostic‘s amount (www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html):

 

Japan 64%

Sweden 46%

Denmark 43%

France 43%

Belgium 42%

Germany 41%

Netherlands 39%

Britain 31%

-------------------

Russia 24%

China 8%

 

Image Image

 

Communism (commun=collective/shared) is bad, because it contradict Darwin’s Evolution theory - unnatural equalization and collective/shared property removes natural selection and competition – motive, why to be better than others. People's needs always are larger, than possibilities and this force them not to enjoy what they have and push to move forward. Restriction of possibilities to supply self needs by setting some top limit it is the same as restriction enthusiasm to reach something higher. Governments must let to do everything if someone’s actions and reached benefit are not less than made harm to others in the reaching process. Everything what supply and does not include everyone else against their will – must be normal ant allowable. Problem is, that regarding to old convictions (maybe they were useful in old world model, but lost sense in new), not all people catch progress and slow down all train. Besides, even where religion power was not strong were no killings exactly in the name of atheism. You will not find banners or flags with words like "Atheism with us" and exhortation for atheist to unite and kill theists. Of course, not all atheists are good and all theists – bad. You can find bad people between atheists too. But believers often incrimination atheists what did believers. Maybe, it is difficult for theists to realize, that morality can come from human consciousness and lessons learned from narrow social relations with other humans, understanding, that you depend not only from yourself, but from others as well. And how you will treat others – others will treat you. Morality does not come just from God or priest‘s lectures. Thanks to Evolution and competition, survived these in which brains formatted behavior model to care about each other – groups, which members didn’t avoided compensate others (collective) weakness with their strongness survived better. It is was harder to attack and destroy that camp at cold night where weak-sleepy guard was not leaved with his own problem, but sometimes someone gave him hot tea or he was replaced by stronger-bouncy guard, letting him to sleep-rest and later to take post again... planning that latter he will help them who helped him.

 

Some Pol Pot fought against Buddhist RELIGION, therefore he was an atheist?

Some Muslim fought against Christian RELIGION, therefore he was an atheist.

Some Protestant fought against Catholic RELIGION, therefore he was an atheist.

 

If some person (like Stalin or Pol Pot) fights against some religion or religions, it doesn’t mean automatically, that he is an atheist. Some people are believers with their personalized-modified understanding of religion or God. And they fight against other religions or organized their own religion. For example: they can think that it is corrupted and perverted or there is no need in organized religion - God must be private thing, etc.. To accuse someone in atheism, you must refer not just what against that person fights, but refer to what that person supports, to his personal-positive views on atheism and religion. Stalin murdered almost all Soviet military elite before WW2… does it mean that he was anti-Soviet? Stalin killed communists as flies - does it make him anti-Communist? He saw this as clearing / purifying. For Stalin to murder someone was not a big deal... he just spread tickets to Heaven with light hand. How the Papal legate Arnaud-Amaury once said: "Kill them all! Surely the Lord discerns which ones are his". Christians slaughtered each other in thousands during all history. Does it make them non-Christians? Pol Pot fought against organized Buddhism, but… his regime’s core was trying to suppress individuality, therefore he tried to eliminate all differences between humans. Strange as that might seem… but this conception was inspired directly from the same Buddhism. Pol Pot studied at a Buddhist monastery and a Roman Catholic school too. So it would be nice, that believers would not throw all responsibility for Pol Pot’s behaviour and ideas on atheists. Pol Pot in his behaviour was stunningly irrational, illogical and totally stupid. He exterminated educated people, doctors, teachers – important part of atheism base. It would be nice to see more clear evidences, that he was an atheist than just: "Communism=Atheism" and "If you fight some denomination of religion you are an atheist".

 

VIOLENCE from RELIGION

 

Idea of Hell leads to violence. What is the point of the Hell? If Hell will be eternal suffering, then there is no final point, just pointless torture. If point is torture, until sinner will understand his sins, then isn't better way to make human to understand something – knowledge and education? If child committed mistake-sin (for example sealing or animal beating), what would be better to do to make sure that he would not mistake-sin again? Sit down and talk with him, explain how World works, explain social links, why stealing is bad, because it ruins society - his own environment, his life, how animals suffer and feel pain, explain about reversible effect of all actions, until he will understand (of course not all parents are smart and able to explain everything). Or it is better to beat your child, strip his nails off, scald his flesh with hot water and torture him? We all know that kids, who experienced violence in childhood from others (like Stalin), later are more violent. Raped become a rapists, beaten become a beater. If you beat your child for his mistakes-sins, with every strike your install in his brains conception, that beating is acceptable method to achieve your goals (especially when you are stronger). It makes beating OK if somebody doesn’t act how you like/want. That is why beaten in childhood beat others in the same way later, trying to achieve his goals, as same as his authority (father/mother) did in the past. Christian "education" idea through torture in Hell - is primitive, violent, and stupid. Whole civilised World knows already that if you want to grow a good human, you do it with education and knowledge, not with violence and torture (because people learn by copying others). Otherwise schools would be torture chambers. The main purpose and idea should be to repair broken humans in humane schools, not to destroy them finally in Hell by showing them new limits of sadism and torture. Is God so stupid and primitive that He doesn’t know better way to teach, than just through torture? Does He give priority to fist over intellect? Or it is just some stupid and primitive Christians with big fists and small brains are trying to apply what they master best? Therefore they created for themselves imaginable place, to enjoy in their minds suffering of those who don’t agree with them... and in such way they compensate their dissatisfaction in reality. If you can’t win opponent in reality, you can at least enjoy torturing him in your mind. Idea of Hell show us, how sick and sadistic in its core can be Christianity. Christianity still teaches conception of Hell and still don’t "understand", why religious fanatics as Hitler and Stalin (who received religious education) were so brutal and violent. Inquisition (tortures were used to retrieve lost sheeps to "right" patch and suffer for sins) was the same idea of Hell brought us into Earth by Church Inc. Until idea of Hell is alive, idea of Inquisition, teaching and achieving goals through torture and sadism is alive too.

 

Religion always leads to Inquisition with “Disprove God existence!”

 

Every time, when you make proposition and ask someone else to disprove this, you make an Inquisition act.

In modern society court uses innocent presumption - when man reputed as innocent, until his guilt is not proved. Prove of guilt (proposition) must present accuser (proposer).

Inquisition operated conversely. Inquisition court used guilty presumption - when someone threw proposition-accusation, and accused person was reputed as guilty… until disproving that he is not. And to disprove proposition-accusation supposed accused person. This let very easily to cope (crucify) with everybody by throwing any ridiculous propositions-accusations-claims …like “he is cooperating with the devil” or “she is a witch”. And it was more easier in the past, because accused person, who supposed to defend himself and desperately search for evidences of his innocence, as usual was imprisoned (as already guilty). And it is hard to find evidences for that, what never existed and exists. What evidence has nothing? Of course, the best evidence for nothing is ...nothing. But accusers wanted ...something... to disprove their nothing. In religious discussions between theists and atheists... theists until now throw proposition, that God exists, and waiting disproof of this proposition from atheists – what atheists almost always and try to do. Believers just rest and wait some visible or touchable evidences which could prove their ...nothingnone-existing God. Therefore atheists try to replace God-nothing with something (scientific explanations of things and events). Situation looks like Christians are waiting for some touchable and visible evidences for vacuum. Believers cannot prove their proposition (God) until now, so until now they are trying to use Inquisition tactics (guilty presumption) in debates. Therefore it is important always to alarm, when religion gain more power in society and society’s’ law, which determine human’s lives. Because until now... religion and its followers in thinking and methods are not more advanced as far as in 16 ages. I saw and see this guilt presumption method in religious society very often. Like newest - war in Iraq: People started war with Iraq believing in weapons of mass destruction without supporting these claims by strong evidences. And I saw and see this often in private lives, when people cope with their opponents by throwing accusations without evidences. Ant people don’t need evidences… all what they need it is just blind faith-belief and desire to crucify somebody. I care for better society for me and, maybe, my kids – this is reason, why I try to remove religious thinking and replace it by logic and reason.

 

Religion leads to populism and demagogy in politics and personal life.

 

At first I will present word of God from the Bible:

 

Bible:Ps:128:4 Lo, thus shall the man be blessed who fears the LORD.

Bible:Jo:20:29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe." (Who believe without evidences)

 

Religion-belief is directly involved in spreading not just guilt presumption, but also message, that somehow blind belief-faith without evidences has great value and even greater than belief based on evidences. After proposition, that God exists, believers still hold position that God exists… until His existence is not disproved by somebody (like atheists). Thanks to such thinking, anyone can throw proposition and people believe and accept it as truth without supporting evidences. And when it is accusation - consider accused person as a criminal. And in some cases even crucify him, if accused person is not capable in right time to disprove accusations – not all accused persons are very smart enough to do this. There is absolutely reversed situation in sceptic’s society, because sceptics appeal not on belief, but on evidences. And when somebody throws proposition or accusation, proposer-accuser must prove his claims himself. People request to show clear evidences for proposition-accusation in the first place. And just after that, when evidences are presented, proposition-accusation reputed as true and accused person as guilty. (As existence of God reputed as true just when His existence is proved with clear evidences). Incompetence or not-knowing, how to explain some things and events, are NOT evidences of God! It is evidences of incompetence and lack of person’s knowledge. It is not surprise, when unknowing person tries to present his unknowingness as “advantage” – he feels better when thinks that he at least has something valuable – his unknowingness – Jesus(God-Authority) personally value that... and who cares about small humans. It is not hard to understand, why in sceptic’s society, which appeals on evidences, more dominates innocent presumption and objective opinion …and in believer’s society, which appeals on propositions and belief without evidences, more dominates guilt presumption and bigger risk of preconceived opinion. Therefore in it very easy to crucify anybody with sometimes absolutely ridiculous claims - it is why believer’s society is not safe. It is why in believer’s society prospers injustice, populism and demagogy. It is why in believer’s society can win orators, who spiel with their gold-toque and give unreal promises without clear evidences, how these promises will be realized. People value persons (for example politics and priests) who can lie more and better without shame, who promise bigger golden mountains and Heaven for everyone. People value their leaders not just for what they already did today, but what they promise to do in the future too. And the more stronger is belief (blind faith)… the more overrated are promises over already realized tasks. It is why in America and other countries politics strongly support religion – it is wide open gate for them to trick-full common people, get power and control them. It is why I am against religion. It is why I support science, education, knowledge and appealing on clear evidences (not on blind belief-faith). Science, education, knowledge and appealing on clear evidences leads us to safer society and reduces possibilities for liars and bulshiters to enter politics and gain power …and doesn’t let to crucify innocent people so easily by setting against them blind crowd. And it is more difficult to reach agreement or right decision (for example in the same family) between two different opinions holding believers than between two persons, who base their arguments on logic and strong evidences.

 

Even if suppose that Hitler and Stalin were not religious themselves, but just exploited RELIGION of their people to realize ideas... this shows... that Hitler and Stalin appealed exactly on RELIGION (Christianity) to gain full power and realize their ideas more easily.

 

Vaidotas Jocys (vaidotas@jocys.com)


I AM GOD AS YOU
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Thanks for that, I see you

Thanks for that, I see you are new here, ... may I suggest you continue checking out this RRS site, and read the "RRS authors" , many really great essays, etc. way cool.

This RRS site can get brutal, I get beat up here all the time, and I'm on the atheists side, go figure !

Personally I'm mostly against lables, I just say we are "god", and I get in alot of trouble for that.

 Yes Stalin and Hitler were Idiots, thats the lable I would put on them, and what is worse is that they were leaders, go figure, ......  

  


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Welcome VJocys Nice post 

Welcome VJocys

Nice post 


Brian37
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I AM GOD AS YOU

I AM GOD AS YOU wrote:

Thanks for that, I see you are new here, ... may I suggest you continue checking out this RRS site, and read the "RRS authors" , many really great essays, etc. way cool.

This RRS site can get brutal, I get beat up here all the time, and I'm on the atheists side, go figure !

Personally I'm mostly against lables, I just say we are "god", and I get in alot of trouble for that.

Yes Stalin and Hitler were Idiots, thats the lable I would put on them, and what is worse is that they were leaders, go figure, ......

 

"we are god" is an absurd statement. WE as a species project our egos on others. That is a more accurate statement. But to say WE are supernatural beings ourselves is absurd.

Otherwise, dispense with using the word "god" when discribing simple mundain human phycology. We as a species invent gods. We as a species project behaivors that we feel benifit us as being good for others as well.

But the topic of this post is about Hitler and Stalin. I do get sick of people equating non-belief as being evil, when what happened with Hitler and Stalin had nothing to do with atheism and everything to do with facism. Those dictators were not out to opress religion, they were out to opress any oposition to their power. 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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I do get annoyed when

I do get annoyed when people say that people like hitler and stalin were evil, although it is the kind of rash judgement i've come to expect from believers and pseudo-atheists (that are just as stubborn about non-belief as theists are about belief).

 

Evil seems to be a kind of catch all term for anyone that has done a really bad thing. I don't for a second believe that Hitler walked around each day being an asshole to people and never smiled, in fact evidence proves the contrary, he probably smiled at a kitten playing with a cotton ball and was genuinely nice to his friends. The problem is he had views that most of us completely disagree, mostly because they are destructive.

 

These "evil" people have something in common with most religious people, and that is an unshakeable belief that they are right. For some reason a big part of society sees this kind of conviction in your beliefs as riteous, a virtue even, when in fact it is the stupiedest way to be, regardless of faith.

 

Lets stop this "Hitler was an atheist" stuff and instead say "Hitler was just as stubborn about his beliefs as you are, and look how wrong we think he is" 


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Thanks for doing the

Thanks for doing the research on this subject.  I've often tried to find evidence of Stalin actually being an Atheist but I have never found any.  When I've asked people when Stalin said he was an Atheist or denounced a belief in a god I've never been given an answer.  People just assume that since he was a Communist that meant he was an Atheist.  The problem is the lack of education and the belief in anti-Soveit propaganda.  In reality the vast majority of Communists in the USSR were Christian.  Somehow people in America have never been able to realize that religious people can create and run a secular government (like America).

Often the argument used against Atheism is that 20th century's dictators with the highest death counts were Atheist.  Recently in the Dawkins/Lennox conversation Lennox mentioned Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao (Dawkins was the only one to make a reference to Hitler showing that Dawkins needs to be better informed on the subject).  Atheists are being attacked through historical revisionism and decades of anti-Communist propaganda.  Perhaps Christopher Hitchens should tackle the subject of Stalin's religious beliefs for his next book and the current zeitgeist will change.


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Excellent post.

Excellent post.


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Interesting post about those

Interesting post about those dictators, but I'm not loving the nod to "social Darwinism" at the end.


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You're right with Hitler,

You're right with Hitler, but not Stalin.  Unless you want to tell me why the NKVD stamped out religion.

 

But even if Stalin wasn't atheist, Hoxha clearly was.

 

It doesn't their beliefs don't matter anyway since they both followed Secular ideologies. Martin Bormann (A high ranking Nazi memeber) thought Nazisim was incompatiable with Christianity. 


So yeah, this is bullshit.


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Cpt_pineapple

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

You're right with Hitler, but not Stalin.  Unless you want to tell me why the NKVD stamped out religion.

 

But even if Stalin wasn't atheist, Hoxha clearly was.

 

It doesn't their beliefs don't matter anyway since they both followed Secular ideologies. Martin Bormann (A high ranking Nazi memeber) thought Nazisim was incompatiable with Christianity. 


So yeah, this is bullshit.

What follows is an excerpt from one of Hitler's speeches. Please explain how this represents a secular ideology:

Quote:

"In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

The secularness... too powerful... can't... fight it.


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Fateless7

Fateless7 wrote:
Cpt_pineapple wrote:

You're right with Hitler, but not Stalin. Unless you want to tell me why the NKVD stamped out religion.

 

But even if Stalin wasn't atheist, Hoxha clearly was.

 

It doesn't their beliefs don't matter anyway since they both followed Secular ideologies. Martin Bormann (A high ranking Nazi memeber) thought Nazisim was incompatiable with Christianity.


So yeah, this is bullshit.

What follows is an excerpt from one of Hitler's speeches. Please explain how this represents a secular ideology:

Quote:

"In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

The secularness... too powerful... can't... fight it.

 

Hitler's tabletalks:

 

When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves. from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease

 

The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity

 

Did you ignore my post about Bormann?

 

When we [National Socialists] speak of belief in God, we do not mean, like the naive Christians and their spiritual exploiters, a man-like being sitting around somewhere in the universe. The force governed by natural law by which all these countless planets move in the universe, we call omnipotence or God. The assertion that this universal force can trouble itself about the destiny of each individual being, every smallest earthly bacillus, can be influenced by so-called prayers or other surprising things, depends upon a requisite dose of naivety or else upon shameless professional self-interest

 

~Martian Bormann 


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Cpt_pineapple

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

 

Hitler's tabletalks:

 

When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves. from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease

 

The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity

 

Did you ignore my post about Bormann?

 

When we [National Socialists] speak of belief in God, we do not mean, like the naive Christians and their spiritual exploiters, a man-like being sitting around somewhere in the universe. The force governed by natural law by which all these countless planets move in the universe, we call omnipotence or God. The assertion that this universal force can trouble itself about the destiny of each individual being, every smallest earthly bacillus, can be influenced by so-called prayers or other surprising things, depends upon a requisite dose of naivety or else upon shameless professional self-interest

 

~Martian Bormann 

First of all, any seeming "Anti-Christian" sentiments attributed to Hitler exist only in "Table-Talk", which was not surprisingly overseen by the anti-christian Bormann, who himself noted that he would edit the notes himself.

Second, we should see these same sentiments in other public and private conversations involving Hitler, yet all you have to quote from is Bormann.

Third, Hitler refers to "Christianity" as the organized religion. He never denounces his own Christianity, nor Jesus.

Furthermore, his Table-Talk quotes only serve to reinforce the validity of his religious ideology against Jews:

Quote:

Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism the destroyer. Nevertheless, the Galilean, who later was called Christ, intended something quite different. He must be regarded as a popular leader who too up His position against Jewry. Galilee was a colony where the Romans had probably installed Gallic legionaries, and it's certain that Jesus was not a Jew. The Jews, by the way, regarded Him as the son of a whore-- of a whore and a Roman soldier.

The decisive falsification of Jesus's doctrine was the work of St. Paul. He gave himself to this work with subtlety and for purposes of personal exploitation. For the Galiean's object was to liberate His country from Jewish oppression. He set Himself against Jewish capitalism, and that's why the Jews liquidated Him.
-Hitler [Table-Talk, p. 76]

Once again, demonstrate how this represents a secular ideology.


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Fateless7

Fateless7 wrote:
Cpt_pineapple wrote:

 

Hitler's tabletalks:

 

When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves. from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease

 

The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity

 

Did you ignore my post about Bormann?

 

When we [National Socialists] speak of belief in God, we do not mean, like the naive Christians and their spiritual exploiters, a man-like being sitting around somewhere in the universe. The force governed by natural law by which all these countless planets move in the universe, we call omnipotence or God. The assertion that this universal force can trouble itself about the destiny of each individual being, every smallest earthly bacillus, can be influenced by so-called prayers or other surprising things, depends upon a requisite dose of naivety or else upon shameless professional self-interest

 

~Martian Bormann

First of all, any seeming "Anti-Christian" sentiments attributed to Hitler exist only in "Table-Talk", which was not surprisingly overseen by the anti-christian Bormann, who himself noted that he would edit the notes himself.

Second, we should see these same sentiments in other public and private conversations involving Hitler, yet all you have to quote from is Bormann.

Third, Hitler refers to "Christianity" as the organized religion. He never denounces his own Christianity, nor Jesus.

Furthermore, his Table-Talk quotes only serve to reinforce the validity of his religious ideology against Jews:

 

That's my point. Why would he let a outspoken anit-Christian hold such a high rank if it was a Christian ideology? No he wouldn't have.

 

Hitler hated Jews as a race, not a religion. 

 

Quote:
 

Quote:

Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism the destroyer. Nevertheless, the Galilean, who later was called Christ, intended something quite different. He must be regarded as a popular leader who too up His position against Jewry. Galilee was a colony where the Romans had probably installed Gallic legionaries, and it's certain that Jesus was not a Jew. The Jews, by the way, regarded Him as the son of a whore-- of a whore and a Roman soldier.

The decisive falsification of Jesus's doctrine was the work of St. Paul. He gave himself to this work with subtlety and for purposes of personal exploitation. For the Galiean's object was to liberate His country from Jewish oppression. He set Himself against Jewish capitalism, and that's why the Jews liquidated Him.
-Hitler [Table-Talk, p. 76]

Once again, demonstrate how this represents a secular ideology.

 

Are you incapable of reading comprhension?

You have yet to explain why Bormann followed Nazism if it was a Christian ideology when he himself was an atheist, or at the very least, anti-Christian.

 

Just because Hitler was Christian doesn't mean Nazism is a Christian ideology.


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As for the quotes from

As for the quotes from Hitler's speeches, Hitler brought up God and Jesus because he was personally a Christian. This is common as many people will attribute their secular beliefs to their Christianity. He did think he was doing God's work by leading Germany to full glory, but he only attributed to God because he was Christian and felt so strongly about leading the German people.

 

 

Now answer me this, if Hitler was an atheist do you think that he still would have done it?

My answer is yes because Nazism is a secular ideology. 


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in spite of agreeing with

in spite of agreeing with the subject, I don't think you should be copy+pasting articles.

 

EDIT: nevermind, you wrote it. 


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VJocys wrote: but

VJocys wrote:



but need some grammar check by Americans or British. I think, this text (especially about Stalin)

 

? anybody care to help this chap out ?

Being dyslexic myself, I would shy from such a product, but if nobody else volunteers, I will take it on


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Rev_Devilin wrote: VJocys

Rev_Devilin wrote:
VJocys wrote:



but need some grammar check by Americans or British. I think, this text (especially about Stalin)

 

? anybody care to help this chap out ?

Being dyslexic myself, I would shy from such a product, but if nobody else volunteers, I will take it on

 I could do it pretty quickly. I'd have a little trouble with the Russian text though. Sticking out tongue

 

 

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Thank you very much for

Thank you very much for this excellent and informative post.  ("Danke Schoen" and "spasibo!&quotEye-wink.  I was particularly interested in the information about Stalin.  I had always taken for granted that he was an atheist because he was a Communist.  Of course, to me Communist ideology is comparable to theism.  It is a belief completely unsupported by evidence.

 

Thandarr 


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Go for it Eloise I'm sure

Go for it Eloise

I'm sure you could skip the Russian Cool

 
I think VJocys is Lithuanian, does anybody know this language ?


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Cpt_pineapple

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
 

Hitler's tabletalks:

Table Talk is a product of hearsay and not considered reliable history since no other account can back up what is said contrary to numerous instances of contradicting behavior and conversation by Hitler.  Hitler's 'positive christianity' movement shows that Hitler isn't only Christian but advocating Christianity and wouldn't tolerate any anti-Christian behavior in his ranks.  What may seem anti-Christian was his disdain for modern churches having forsaken Christ as the first socialist and the first anti-semite. 

His goal was to unite Catholics and Protestants under a religion based on common ground for a unified Germany.  What unified both sects was hatred of Jews.

 As for Stalin there is more evidence of his cozy relationship with religion.  Under Stalin the Soviet League for the Militant Godless no longer had strong state support.  Had Stalin been an Atheist he would have thrown more support behind the organization rather than underfunding, if not outright cutting their funding.


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D-cubed

D-cubed wrote:
Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Hitler's tabletalks:

Table Talk is a product of hearsay and not considered reliable history since no other account can back up what is said contrary to numerous instances of contradicting behavior and conversation by Hitler. Hitler's 'positive christianity' movement shows that Hitler isn't only Christian but advocating Christianity and wouldn't tolerate any anti-Christian behavior in his ranks. What may seem anti-Christian was his disdain for modern churches having forsaken Christ as the first socialist and the first anti-semite.

 

 

*head desk*

 

BORMANN WAS ANTI-CHRISTIAN!

 

What part of that is so hard to understand?

 

 So YES, HE DID TOLERATE ANTI-CHRISTIAN BEHAVOUR!

 

He hated Jews due to their race. In schools, Hitler instilled text books of how to identify undeseriables based on their physical features.  It was Eugenics.

 

Quote:

His goal was to unite Catholics and Protestants under a religion based on common ground for a unified Germany. What unified both sects was hatred of Jews.

 

His goal was to unite all Germans in a superiour race. 

 

 

Quote:
 

 

As for Stalin there is more evidence of his cozy relationship with religion. Under Stalin the Soviet League for the Militant Godless no longer had strong state support. Had Stalin been an Atheist he would have thrown more support behind the organization rather than underfunding, if not outright cutting their funding.

 

I've already said, it doesn't matter what Stalin believed. His motivation was communism, not theology or atheism.


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Cpt_pineapple wrote: As

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

As for the quotes from Hitler's speeches, Hitler brought up God and Jesus because he was personally a Christian. This is common as many people will attribute their secular beliefs to their Christianity. He did think he was doing God's work by leading Germany to full glory, but he only attributed to God because he was Christian and felt so strongly about leading the German people.

 

 

Now answer me this, if Hitler was an atheist do you think that he still would have done it?

My answer is yes because Nazism is a secular ideology. 

There were varieties of Nazism. For example, Otto Strasser was a left-wing Nazi who didn't take anti-semitism to the extent Hitler did. Hitler and Strasser were not buddies, lol.... so you can't say that Nazism was this big, all encompassing, homogenous ideology. Hitler had his own brand of Nazism that included the severe anti-semitism that Strasser's Nazism lacked.

What made Hitler's brand of Nazism different?

His religious ideology.

You have one source of information that shows Hitler was anti-organized religion. The same source of information shows that Hitler was pro-Jesus and anti-Jew, and confirms that Hitler maintained a religious ideology.

But... but Nazism wasn't a religious ideology!

Nazism is a political ideology.

People have religious ideologies in addition to political ideologies.

Hitler's extreme anti-semitism was a result of his religious ideology.

I know you'd love to lump all of Hitler's beliefs into Nazism, since you're a theist, but it won't work. Remember, political ideologies... and religious ideologies. Two different things. Nazism... and extreme anti-semitic Christianity.

You may as well argue that being republican is equal to being anti-atheist because George Bush is a republican.

 


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http://www.britannica.com/ho

http://www.britannica.com/holocaust/article-9056530

 

This racial definition meant that Jews were persecuted not for their religious beliefs and practices but for a so-called racial identity transmitted irrevocably through the blood of their ancestors. These laws resolved the question of definition and set a legal precedent. The Nazis later imposed the Nürnberg Laws on territories they occupied. The laws also provided a model for the treatment and eventual genocide of the Roma (Gypsies).

 

whoops.

 

 http://www.britannica.com/holocaust/article-9007807

 

Nazi anti-Semitism, which culminated in the Holocaust, had a racist dimension in that it targeted Jews because of their supposed biological characteristicseven those who had themselves converted to other religions or whose parents were converts.

 

 

ah fuck.

 

 Now did anti-semitism already exist? Yes. Some Christians were anti-semitic, but not because of racism.

 

Hitler didn't invent anti-semitism just this form of it. 

 

Were all Christians anti-semitic? No, in fact some hid Jews in churches. 


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Fateless7

Fateless7 wrote:
Cpt_pineapple wrote:

As for the quotes from Hitler's speeches, Hitler brought up God and Jesus because he was personally a Christian. This is common as many people will attribute their secular beliefs to their Christianity. He did think he was doing God's work by leading Germany to full glory, but he only attributed to God because he was Christian and felt so strongly about leading the German people.

 

 

Now answer me this, if Hitler was an atheist do you think that he still would have done it?

My answer is yes because Nazism is a secular ideology.

There were varieties of Nazism. For example, Otto Strasser was a left-wing Nazi who didn't take anti-semitism to the extent Hitler did. Hitler and Strasser were not buddies, lol.... so you can't say that Nazism was this big, all encompassing, homogenous ideology. Hitler had his own brand of Nazism that included the severe anti-semitism that Strasser's Nazism lacked.


 

 

Of course there are variates just like their are a varity of Communist ideas (Stalinis, Marxism etc....), but they are built on a central idea, and that is secular.

 

 

Quote:

What made Hitler's brand of Nazism different?

His religious ideology.

You have one source of information that shows Hitler was anti-organized religion. The same source of information shows that Hitler was pro-Jesus and anti-Jew, and confirms that Hitler maintained a religious ideology.


But... but Nazism wasn't a religious ideology!

Nazism is a political ideology.

People have religious ideologies in addition to political ideologies.

Hitler's extreme anti-semitism was a result of his religious ideology.

 

I addressed Hitler's anti-semitism in my previous post. (That I was typing as you posted this. So I'll let you read that instead of reposting it.).

 

Quote:
 

I know you'd love to lump all of Hitler's beliefs into Nazism, since you're a theist, but it won't work. Remember, political ideologies... and religious ideologies. Two different things. Nazism... and extreme anti-semitic Christianity.

You may as well argue that being republican is equal to being anti-atheist because George Bush is a republican.

 

 

Read my previous post. On that note, I think Nazism played a very big role in what transpired in Nazi Germany. 

 

 


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Cpt_pineapple

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

http://www.britannica.com/holocaust/article-9056530

 

This racial definition meant that Jews were persecuted not for their religious beliefs and practices but for a so-called racial identity transmitted irrevocably through the blood of their ancestors. These laws resolved the question of definition and set a legal precedent. The Nazis later imposed the Nürnberg Laws on territories they occupied. The laws also provided a model for the treatment and eventual genocide of the Roma (Gypsies).

 

whoops.

 

 http://www.britannica.com/holocaust/article-9007807

 

Nazi anti-Semitism, which culminated in the Holocaust, had a racist dimension in that it targeted Jews because of their supposed biological characteristicseven those who had themselves converted to other religions or whose parents were converts.

 

 

ah fuck.

 

 Now did anti-semitism already exist? Yes. Some Christians were anti-semitic, but not because of racism.

 

Hitler didn't invent anti-semitism just this form of it. 

 

Were all Christians anti-semitic? No, in fact some hid Jews in churches. 

Having fun with the straw men?

We're not talking about how anti-semitism started. We're not talking about any other Christian than Hitler himself.

Hitler's extreme anti-semitism was a result of his religious ideology.

Now, what was this "racial identity transmitted irrevocably through the blood of their ancestors"? Anyone?

Yup, you guessed! The racial identity of those Hitler believed had killed God!

Religious ideology, anyone?

 


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Fateless7 wrote: Having

Fateless7 wrote:

Having fun with the straw men?

We're not talking about how anti-semitism started. We're not talking about any other Christian than Hitler himself.

 

Hitler's extreme anti-semitism was a result of his religious ideology.

 

 

I was responding to D-cubed. I pointed you to that post because you said Hitler's anti-semitism was a result of his religious ideology.

 

Quote:

Now, what was this "racial identity transmitted irrevocably through the blood of their ancestors"? Anyone?

Yup, you guessed! The racial identity of those Hitler believed had killed God!

Religious ideology, anyone?

 

 

Jesus Christ being Jewish anyone?

King of the Jews? Ring any bells? 

 


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Cpt_pineapple wrote: Jesus

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Jesus Christ being Jewish anyone?

King of the Jews? Ring any bells? 

 

Quote:

John 7 
7:1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

Care to educate us some more on Jesus and the Jews?

 


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Cpt_pineapple

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

http://www.britannica.com/holocaust/article-9056530

This racial definition meant that Jews were persecuted not for their religious beliefs and practices but for a so-called racial identity transmitted irrevocably through the blood of their ancestors. These laws resolved the question of definition and set a legal precedent. The Nazis later imposed the Nürnberg Laws on territories they occupied. The laws also provided a model for the treatment and eventual genocide of the Roma (Gypsies).

whoops.

Whoops, here's more information about your "bloodline":

Quote:

Christian Identity & Anti-Semitism:
Christian Identity is characterized by extreme anti-Semitism. Identity believers hate Jews with a passion and have incorporated the Jews as intricate elements within Identity theology. Identity believers have constructed an elaborate bloodline for contemporary Jews which begins with a union between Eve and the serpent (who was really Satan) in the Garden of Eden. Conspiracy theories about the Jews and the forces of Satan working to take over the world are thus fused.

Christian Identity asserts that the people of Europe are God's servant people according to the promises that were given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It further asserts that the early European tribes were really the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel and therefore the rightful heirs to God's promises. The argument is that the lost tribes of Israel were taken into captivity and deported by Sargon, king of Assyria as punishment for failing to honour the terms of the first covenant, given by God to Moses. After the death of King Solomon, the Hebrew people experienced a civil war that resulted in two houses, the House of Israel, and the House of Judah. As punishment for their sinfulness, God warned both houses through Jeremiah, and the minor prophets that both houses would be punished for 2520 years ("seven times" or also known in the Bible as "the time of the gentiles&quotEye-wink, by being divorced as a people from their God, and removed from the land of their forefathers. By extension, the theory goes, this would mean that the European tribes inherited God's first covenant, subsequent punishments, and the "New Covenant" as well.

Sounds suspiciously like the anti-semitism you attribute to Nazism, doesn't it?

Quote:

Like other anti-Jewish groups, Christian Identity has advocated violence against Jews on the basis that they are the "Christ killers".

Sounds suspiciously exactly like Hitler.

Quote:

The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc, because it recognized the Jews for what they were".... I recognize the representatives of this race as pestilent for the state and for the church and perhaps I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions.

-Adolf Hitler, 26 April 1933, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]

You know what's wrong with that quote? Hitler is supposed to be saying "I am thereby doing Nazism a great service..." Better go tell them to get it straight! Lol.


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Fateless7

Fateless7 wrote:
Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Jesus Christ being Jewish anyone?

King of the Jews? Ring any bells?

 

Quote:

John 7
7:1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

Care to educate us some more on Jesus and the Jews?

 

 

Care to cherry pick?

  Considering Jesus of Nazareth, would be in the same race of the Jews.

 

Oh, btw, the leaders of Jewry wanted to kill Jesus. Jewry.

hmmm interesting name. I wonder why the citizens would be called Jews. 


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Fateless7

Fateless7 wrote:
Cpt_pineapple wrote:

http://www.britannica.com/holocaust/article-9056530

This racial definition meant that Jews were persecuted not for their religious beliefs and practices but for a so-called racial identity transmitted irrevocably through the blood of their ancestors. These laws resolved the question of definition and set a legal precedent. The Nazis later imposed the Nürnberg Laws on territories they occupied. The laws also provided a model for the treatment and eventual genocide of the Roma (Gypsies).

whoops.

Whoops, here's more information about your "bloodline":

Quote:

Christian Identity & Anti-Semitism:
Christian Identity is characterized by extreme anti-Semitism. Identity believers hate Jews with a passion and have incorporated the Jews as intricate elements within Identity theology. Identity believers have constructed an elaborate bloodline for contemporary Jews which begins with a union between Eve and the serpent (who was really Satan) in the Garden of Eden. Conspiracy theories about the Jews and the forces of Satan working to take over the world are thus fused.

Quote:
 

Christian Identity asserts that the people of Europe are God's servant people according to the promises that were given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It further asserts that the early European tribes were really the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel and therefore the rightful heirs to God's promises. The argument is that the lost tribes of Israel were taken into captivity and deported by Sargon, king of Assyria as punishment for failing to honour the terms of the first covenant, given by God to Moses. After the death of King Solomon, the Hebrew people experienced a civil war that resulted in two houses, the House of Israel, and the House of Judah. As punishment for their sinfulness, God warned both houses through Jeremiah, and the minor prophets that both houses would be punished for 2520 years ("seven times" or also known in the Bible as "the time of the gentiles&quotEye-wink, by being divorced as a people from their God, and removed from the land of their forefathers. By extension, the theory goes, this would mean that the European tribes inherited God's first covenant, subsequent punishments, and the "New Covenant" as well.

Sounds suspiciously like the anti-semitism you attribute to Nazism, doesn't it?

Quote:

Like other anti-Jewish groups, Christian Identity has advocated violence against Jews on the basis that they are the "Christ killers".

Sounds suspiciously exactly like Hitler.

Quote:

The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc, because it recognized the Jews for what they were".... I recognize the representatives of this race as pestilent for the state and for the church and perhaps I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions.

-Adolf Hitler, 26 April 1933, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]

You know what's wrong with that quote? Hitler is supposed to be saying "I am thereby doing Nazism a great service..." Better go tell them to get it straight! Lol.

 

 

In 1941, Martin Bormann, a close associate of Hitler said publicly "National Socialism and Christianity are irreconcilable" In 1942 he also declared in a confidential memo to Gauleiters that the Christian Churches 'must absolutely and finally be broken.' Thus, it is evident that he believed Nazism, based as it was on a 'scientific' world-view, to be completely incompatible with Christianity

 

 

 

 

Leader, my Leader, given to me by God, protect me and sustain my life for a long time
you have rescued Germany out of deepest misery, to you I owe my daily bread
Leader, my Leader, my belief, my light
Leader my Leader, do not abandon me

Sure sounds like they're swearing loyalty to Hitler, and not God.

 


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Quote: Christian Identity

Quote:

Christian Identity asserts that the people of Europe are God's servant people according to the promises that were given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It further asserts that the early European tribes were really the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel and therefore the rightful heirs to God's promises. The argument is that the lost tribes of Israel were taken into captivity and deported by Sargon, king of Assyria as punishment for failing to honour the terms of the first covenant, given by God to Moses. After the death of King Solomon, the Hebrew people experienced a civil war that resulted in two houses, the House of Israel, and the House of Judah. As punishment for their sinfulness, God warned both houses through Jeremiah, and the minor prophets that both houses would be punished for 2520 years ("seven times" or also known in the Bible as "the time of the gentiles"Eye-wink, by being divorced as a people from their God, and removed from the land of their forefathers. By extension, the theory goes, this would mean that the European tribes inherited God's first covenant, subsequent punishments, and the "New Covenant" as well.

Sounds suspiciously like the anti-semitism you attribute to Nazism, doesn't it?

 

 

No, actually it doesn't. Care to elaborate? 

 


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Cpt_pineapple

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

 BORMANN WAS ANTI-CHRISTIAN! 

What part of that is so hard to understand? 

So YES, HE DID TOLERATE ANTI-CHRISTIAN BEHAVOUR! 

He hated Jews due to their race. In schools, Hitler instilled text books of how to identify undeseriables based on their physical features. It was Eugenics.

His goal was to unite all Germans in a superiour race.

Hitler's program of a unified religion was before the program to develop a biological master race.  Bormann was, as many were, to the power of the church structure and saw it necessary to defeat the church's power as any sensible dictator would do to secure authority.

Bormann destroyed his pamphlets and renounced his efforts to continue the anti-clerical acts.  Other Nazis like Ditmer refused to back down on his attacks against the Catholic church in an effort to spread Lutheran dominance.  As a result he was kicked out.  Both Bormann and Ditmer were Protestants.  Just because they didn't liek the Catholic church that doesn't make them Atheist.

The book Holy Reich covers the subject in intensely boring detail that it's not a terribly fun read.  For a more enjoyable read I suggest Ambitious Brew: The Story of American Beer.  Heck, I think I'll have one right now.  I'm glad you brought it up. 


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Cpt_pineapple wrote: In

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

In 1941, Martin Bormann, a close associate of Hitler said publicly "National Socialism and Christianity are irreconcilable" In 1942 he also declared in a confidential memo to Gauleiters that the Christian Churches 'must absolutely and finally be broken.' Thus, it is evident that he believed Nazism, based as it was on a 'scientific' world-view, to be completely incompatible with Christianity

 

Leader, my Leader, given to me by God, protect me and sustain my life for a long time

you have rescued Germany out of deepest misery, to you I owe my daily bread
Leader, my Leader, my belief, my light
Leader my Leader, do not abandon me

Sure sounds like they're swearing loyalty to Hitler, and not God.

 

Leader given to me by God?

Christian.

Nazism is incompatible with Christianity? That's funny. You've already admitted that Hitler was a Christian, right here in this thread.

And plus what Cubed said. I've already told you that both Bormann and Hitler fought against Christianity in the context of other Christian churches, not Christianity itself. They didn't want the Christian churches to have power.

Obviously, the evidence for Hitler's Christianity is stacked against you. We can cite numerous references for Hitler's Christianity (including Table-Talk) and all you have are some vague references from Bormann.

Face it: Hitler maintained a set of Christian beliefs, and yes, those beliefs do amount to racism, just as the KKK is a Christian organization whose racist beliefs are Biblically founded, and George Bush is an anti-gay Christian with Biblically founded beliefs, and on and on.

Feel free to keep on trying though. The evidence is not in your favor and it's just so easy to refute you.

 


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  D-cubed wrote:  Both

 

D-cubed wrote:

 Both Bormann and Ditmer were Protestants

Prove it. 

 

 

Fateless7 wrote:

Leader given to me by God?

Christian.

When have I denied Hitler was Christian? You missed the point

Quote:
 

Nazism is incompatible with Christianity? That's funny. You've already admitted that Hitler was a Christian, right here in this thread.

 

Yes, but Bormann wasn't WHICH WAS MY POINT! 

 

 

 

Quote:

And plus what Cubed said. I've already told you that both Bormann and Hitler fought against Christianity in the context of other Christian churches, not Christianity itself. They didn't want the Christian churches to have power.

 

Congrats, you just refuted your own point. Why wouldn't he want churches to have power then? 

 

Quote:
 

Obviously, the evidence for Hitler's Christianity is stacked against you. We can cite numerous references for Hitler's Christianity (including Table-Talk) and all you have are some vague references from Bormann.

When have I said Hitler wasn't a Christian? Nowwhere. 

 

Quote:

Face it: Hitler maintained a set of Christian beliefs, and yes, those beliefs do amount to racism, just as the KKK is a Christian organization whose racist beliefs are Biblically founded, and George Bush is an anti-gay Christian with Biblically founded beliefs, and on and on.

 

Have you read anything I said? 

 

Quote:

Feel free to keep on trying though. The evidence is not in your favor and it's just so easy to refute you.

 

 

Reading comprehension isn't your forte is it? 


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    OI VEY!!! ok lets get

    OI VEY!!! ok lets get something out right now, jesus is jewish, sure, but in Hitlers christianity, Jesus was ARYAN!!, now anyone with an ounce of knowledge regarding hitler and positive or aryan christianity should know this. Their beliefs where that jesus was an aryan, since he didn't have a jewish father, and that his rise against the jewish curse at the temple showed this. That Paul was a lying jewish rabbi that twisted christ image for jewish domination. we all get this much now. the NAZI'S political ideology was and still is mixed with their religious ideology, not EVERY nazi is a christian, however they all did believe in the perfect aryan race, as well as many of them, again not all, believed jews were to blame for the problems of germany, including various atheists nazis, we all got that now? sheesh.


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It might be a good time to

It might be a good time to point out that Hiters any-semitism simply would not have existed if it where not for Christian ideology. Hitlers anti-semitism is not rooted in Nazism it is rooted in good old traditional catholic anti-semitism that had plaguied Europe for a good 1000+ years prior to Hitler. If any one is stupid enough to deny this I suggest that they read up on the jewish blood libel and the inquesition. A quick google search on these subjects will reveal the long history of Christian sponsored anti-semitism. Nazism, as do all political ideologies, has its roots in many different prior social movements and ideas. Christian anti-semitism is one social phenomona it drew from. As has been pointed out the more religious Nazi's (like Hitler) placed more importance on this aspect of Nazism precicely becasue they where more religious others who wheer less religious didn't have to the same extent the extreame anti-semetic views depsite being Nazi's. Christianity did not on its own casuse Nazism but it did make it worse becasue the Christian influence provided the element of rabid anti-semetism to an already nasty ideology. This resulted in the holocaust. Its quite simple without the Christian influence on Nazism and in particular on Hitler there would have been no Jewish holocaust.


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Cpt_pineapple

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Reading comprehension isn't your forte is it? 

Nice, but your ad hominem arguments won't get you anywhere. Your use of logic is the problem here, as illustrated:

Ever heard of Christians disagreeing with other Christians and killing them? "OMG, if they were Christians why would they attack Christian churches? Christians never disagree with each other! You just refuted yourself!"

Not.

Hitler wanted to replace the Christianity of the churches with his own special brand.

Quote:

Nazism claimed to adhere to Positive Christianity which attempted to replace traditional Christian beliefs with those agreeable with Nazism, which many German Christians accepted. Even in the later years of the Third Reich, many Protestant and Catholic clergy within Germany persisted in believing that Nazism was in its essence in accordance with Christian precepts.

Quote:

Other members of the Hitler government, including Rosenberg, during the war formulated a thirty-point program for the "National Reich Church" which included:

  • The National Reich Church claims exclusive right and control over all Churches.
  • The National Church is determined to exterminate foreign Christian faiths imported into Germany in the ill omened year 800.
  • The National Church demands immediate cessation of the publishing and dissemination of the Bible.
  • The National Church will clear away from its alters all crucifixes, Bibles and pictures of saints.
  • On the alters there must be nothing but Mein Kampf and to the left of the alter a sword.

Christians... attacking Christian churches... in order to replace them with their own version of Christianity. Make sense yet?

Quote:

Congrats, you just refuted your own point. Why wouldn't he want churches to have power then?

Demonstrated.

So would you like to concede your argument that Christians could never attack other Christian churches?

And what's all this nonsense about Bormann? Bormannchu, I choose you! Watch out, it's the theist's wildcard! Does Bormann have anything to do with the fact that Hitler's extreme anti-semitism was a result of his religious ideology?

No.

However, you said that Hitler's Christianity didn't matter because he followed a secular ideology. I, along with others in the thread, have demonstrated with abundant evidence that this was not the case. I even provided the example of Strasser, a Nazi who was opposed to Hitler and whose Nazism did not produce the same extreme anti-semitism as Hitler's.

In conclusion, yes, Hitler's Christianity did matter.

 


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    One must always

    One must always remember that Hitler did dislike all other forms of christianity because in his view, they had been corrupted by Paul, even though he agreed with the Catholic church on their views of Jews (which had for well over a thousand years, had persecuted jews in Europe) since their view was not based on the arayan view of christ they had become corrupt, although not beyond being used for their own ideological uses. Hitler after all wasn't an idiot by any means. As well, Hitlers hatred, as well as much of Europes hatred towards jews, including those in Russia, has always been religious based, and viewed them as killers of christ. A curse since that deed was done and not worthy of life, or respect, which is why the catholic church had done all it could without directly killing them, by putting them in ghettos, taking their children and converting them to christianity (many due to secret baptisims done by others on to jewish children), and many other forms of persecutions.

    Now would have the Holocaust occurred if Hitler was an Atheists, maybe, but most likely not, his hatred of jews, as well as homosexuals was religious based, based on ancient christian hatred as well as his own twisted version of christianity. As shown here and throughout history, Hitler was a christian, it's not something one can deny, his statements against christianity are against protestant and the catholic church, not against his own personal view of positive or arayan christianity. As much as theist cannot understand this, it is simple, the hatred of jews is/was ingrained into society of europe due to the churches indoctrine regarding jews as the lowest of the low, the scum of the earth because they were, again as per Hitler, Martin Luther and so many other religious figures throughout Europe's history, Christ killers.

    Hitlers views of the other churches were that they had become corrupt due to Paul, a jewish rabbi, as per the arayan christian view. Now does everyone that doesn't understand that hitler was a christian get this? Can we put this WHOLE thing to rest?

    As for Bormann, yup he was against christianity, the catholics and the protestants as they were not based on arayan chrsitianity as such were not compatible with Nazism, however Nazi party was setting up the national church of Germany based on positive christianity, however until the war was over they needed the catholic church and other churches to help out their allies and or the lands they took over, such as Italy, France, Poland. Now not all the churches or the clerics agreed with Hitler's view. Again we cannot say that ALL christians were against jews or agreed with Hitler. However the doctrine of the church's of Europe did make it easier to allow the atrocities to occur. Especially in Poland, Italy and of course Germany.


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Cpt_pineapple

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

D-cubed wrote:

Both Bormann and Ditmer were Protestants

Prove it.

It's referenced in the book Holy Reich.


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Fateless7

Fateless7 wrote:
Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Reading comprehension isn't your forte is it?

Nice, but your ad hominem arguments won't get you anywhere. Your use of logic is the problem here, as illustrated:

Ever heard of Christians disagreeing with other Christians and killing them? "OMG, if they were Christians why would they attack Christian churches? Christians never disagree with each other! You just refuted yourself!"

Not.

Hitler wanted to replace the Christianity of the churches with his own special brand.

Quote:

Nazism claimed to adhere to Positive Christianity which attempted to replace traditional Christian beliefs with those agreeable with Nazism, which many German Christians accepted. Even in the later years of the Third Reich, many Protestant and Catholic clergy within Germany persisted in believing that Nazism was in its essence in accordance with Christian precepts.

Quote:

Other members of the Hitler government, including Rosenberg, during the war formulated a thirty-point program for the "National Reich Church" which included:

  • The National Reich Church claims exclusive right and control over all Churches.
  • The National Church is determined to exterminate foreign Christian faiths imported into Germany in the ill omened year 800.
  • The National Church demands immediate cessation of the publishing and dissemination of the Bible.
  • The National Church will clear away from its alters all crucifixes, Bibles and pictures of saints.
  • On the alters there must be nothing but Mein Kampf and to the left of the alter a sword.

Christians... attacking Christian churches... in order to replace them with their own version of Christianity. Make sense yet?

Quote:

Congrats, you just refuted your own point. Why wouldn't he want churches to have power then?

Demonstrated.

So would you like to concede your argument that Christians could never attack other Christian churches?

And what's all this nonsense about Bormann? Bormannchu, I choose you! Watch out, it's the theist's wildcard! Does Bormann have anything to do with the fact that Hitler's extreme anti-semitism was a result of his religious ideology?

No.

However, you said that Hitler's Christianity didn't matter because he followed a secular ideology. I, along with others in the thread, have demonstrated with abundant evidence that this was not the case. I even provided the example of Strasser, a Nazi who was opposed to Hitler and whose Nazism did not produce the same extreme anti-semitism as Hitler's.

In conclusion, yes, Hitler's Christianity did matter.

 

 

Yeah, replace it with his own brand of Nazism. Don't you see? Every leader wants to vanquish all opposition. Hitler saw the church as a threat because they teach to put God over everyone. As I demostrated with  "Hitler's prayer'  they put Hitler above God. 

 

Your example of Strasser proves nothing since I can also come up with Christians who are not anti-semitic. Does that mean that Christianity isn't anti-semitic?

 

I keep bringing up Bormann because he was also anti-semetic and, as you yourself admitted anti-Christian. Where did his anti-semitism come from then?

 


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I don't understand why this

I don't understand why this issue has ever mattered. Could somebody explain it to me?


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   Remember guys, Hitler

   Remember guys, Hitler knew how to work the masses, part of that was seeming like a "righteous christian jew hater" even if he wasn't a Christian. Its a safe bet to say that all Christians are in fact humans... last time I checked humans do alot of brutal things to each other, no matter what they say they believe.

  Using the iffy presumption that dictators were atheists is a poor method by which people attack atheism. Its as stupid as saying that a Christian member of this boards faith is faulty becasuse of the corruption of Pope Boniface VIII. The people who believe aren't important when analyzing the true nature of a belief system, its the beliefs themselves.

      


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Cpt_pineapple wrote: Yeah,

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Yeah, replace it with his own brand of Nazism. Don't you see? Every leader wants to vanquish all opposition. Hitler saw the church as a threat because they teach to put God over everyone. As I demostrated with  "Hitler's prayer'  they put Hitler above God. 

 

Your example of Strasser proves nothing since I can also come up with Christians who are not anti-semitic. Does that mean that Christianity isn't anti-semitic?

 

I keep bringing up Bormann because he was also anti-semetic and, as you yourself admitted anti-Christian. Where did his anti-semitism come from then?

 

I have to say, you are pretty dishonest. Please stop with the straw men-- the example of Strasser is not to demonstrate that all of Nazism is not anti-semitic. You are attributing Hitler's extreme fashion of anti-semitism to his Nazism when it is clear that this is not the case. Strasser is an example of this; if Nazism itself explained Hitler's extreme anti-semitism, then we should see the same in Strasser, who adhered to Nazism, but we don't.

You bring up Bormann because it's a typical theist tactic.

We're not talking about Bormann. We're talking about Hitler.

Let me try to get you to address the point that you were originally disputing since it is obviously difficult for you:

You said Hitler's Christianity didn't matter because he followed secular beliefs.

Hitler's beliefs, and even his form of Nazism, were not secular. They were religious. His extreme anti-semitism was the result of his religious beliefs.

Therefore, Hitler's Christianity did matter.

How many times do we have to repeat this to you?

By the way, do you concede your argument that Christians never attack other Christian churches?


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CrimsonEdge wrote: I don't

CrimsonEdge wrote:
I don't understand why this issue has ever mattered. Could somebody explain it to me?

Hey Crimson,

The issue comes up whenever theists claim that Hitler was an atheist, thereby attempting to demonstrate the "evils of atheism". Some theists are bothered by the fact that Christianity is responsible for most of the atrocities in our history. They want someone to take the heat off of Christianity, so they claim that Hitler was atheist so that things look a little more even.

Or, in Pineapple's case, they would say Hitler was a Christian but his anti-semitism had nothing to do with Christianity.

As you can see, the thread continues to grow as Pineapple evades the refutation of his/her original claim by attacking straw men and arguing about Bormann instead of Hitler.


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Fateless7 wrote: I have to

Fateless7 wrote:

I have to say, you are pretty dishonest. Please stop with the straw men

Stop talking to yourself. 

 

Quote:
 

-- the example of Strasser is not to demonstrate that all of Nazism is not anti-semitic. You are attributing Hitler's extreme fashion of anti-semitism to his Nazism when it is clear that this is not the case. Strasser is an example of this; if Nazism itself explained Hitler's extreme anti-semitism, then we should see the same in Strasser, who adhered to Nazism, but we don't.

If Christianity explained Hitler's extreme anti-semitism, we shouldn't see it in Bormann and we should see it in other Christians. Neither is the case.  There are Christians that are anti-semetic, but not to the level of Hitler.

 

Is this really that hard to understand? 

 

 

 

Quote:

You bring up Bormann because it's a typical theist tactic.

We're not talking about Bormann. We're talking about Hitler.

Let me try to get you to address the point that you were originally disputing since it is obviously difficult for you:

You said Hitler's Christianity didn't matter because he followed secular beliefs.

Hitler's beliefs, and even his form of Nazism, were not secular. They were religious. His extreme anti-semitism was the result of his religious beliefs.

Therefore, Hitler's Christianity did matter.

How many times do we have to repeat this to you?

How many times do I have to repeat my argument?

Here it is.

 

If Hitler's anti-semetism is a result of his Christianity, why did Bormann, who by your own admission was anti-Christian, subscribe to it?

 That is why I keep bringing up Bormann, because you refuse to address this issue! I AM TALKING ABOUT HITLER'S ANTI-SEMETISM WHEN I BRING UP BORMANN!! My argument is that it comes from Nazism. AND BORMANN DEMOSTRATES THAT!

 

 

Quote:

By the way, do you concede your argument that Christians never attack other Christian churches?

Yes, but not for the reason Hitler did.  

 

 

Oh and D-cubed hasn't responded to Bormann's anti-Christian remarks yet, or at least provide a link to where in the Holy reich it states Bormann was Christian.


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Cpt_pineapple wrote: If

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

If Hitler's anti-semetism is a result of his Christianity, why did Bormann, who by your own admission was anti-Christian, subscribe to it?

 That is why I keep bringing up Bormann, because you refuse to address this issue! I AM TALKING ABOUT HITLER'S ANTI-SEMETISM WHEN I BRING UP BORMANN!! My argument is that it comes from Nazism. AND BORMANN DEMOSTRATES THAT!

There is no issue. It is incorrect to say that Bormann subscribed to Hitler's anti-semitism; Hitler's anti-semitism is demonstrated to be of religious nature, therefore Bormann could not subscribe to it. However, Bormann could follow the act of extreme anti-semitism for his own reasons. Hitler's anti-semitism is Hitler's anti-semitism; Bormann's anti-semitism is Bormann's anti-semitism. The two are not interchangable.

Along the same lines, the KKK included members who engaged in racist activities for a variety of personal reasons. They need not all share the same motivation for doing so.

By the way,

Quote:

“When Martin Bormann came out with a confidential anti-Christian tract, Hitler objected. According to Steigmann-Gall, “Almost immediately after it was released, Hitler suppressed it, ordering Bormann to retract his statements and recover all the copies he had sent out.”

“The pro-Christian Goebbels, also disagreed with Bormann’s anticlerical activity, along with many other Nazis. Not only was Bormann's decree on the relation of Christianity and National Socialism done in secret, but at no time was there an official Nazi law that tried to destroy Christianity.

This is what Cubed was talking about.

Once again, you stated that Hitler's extreme anti-semitism was secular and his Christianity didn't matter. This is not the case. Furthermore, you can no longer cry, "Bormann!"

Hitler's Christianity did matter. His extreme anti-semitism was the result of his religious beliefs, and Bormann cannot save you.


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Sorry Cpt_pineapple, but

Sorry Cpt_pineapple, but with Borman’s notes You remember me Achmadinejad who makes references to Orthodox Jews group “Jews United Against Zionism“ to prove that Jews are against Israel state Smiling. If Borman‘s personal notes clearly contradicts Hitlers‘personal writings and speeches and other historical sources, I think that you should be sceptical about Borman’s reliability. Here is some information about Hitler and Table-Talk http://nobeliefs.com/HitlerSources.htm

Adolf Hitler saw atheism as a danger:

Adolf Hitler said in 1941-10-14: “Educated man always stands in Reverence facing Creation; he can’t unriddle it’s sensible Greatness; but Uneducated man is in Danger to proceed to Atheism, which means he will be Brutish.” (Adolf Hitler: Monologues from the Führer's Headquarter, page 41, published by Orbis Verlag in 2000)

Adolf Hitler sagte am 14. Oktober 1941: „Der gebildete Mensch steht immer in Ehrfurcht vor der Schöpfung, die er nicht enträtseln kann, deren Größe er aber empfindet; der Ungebildete hingegen ist in Gefahr, zum Atheismus, das ist zum Vertiert sein, überzuspringen.“ (Adolf Hitler: Monologe aus dem Führerhauptquartier, seite 41, Orbis Verlag, 2000)


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Fateless7

Fateless7 wrote:
Cpt_pineapple wrote:

If Hitler's anti-semetism is a result of his Christianity, why did Bormann, who by your own admission was anti-Christian, subscribe to it?

That is why I keep bringing up Bormann, because you refuse to address this issue! I AM TALKING ABOUT HITLER'S ANTI-SEMETISM WHEN I BRING UP BORMANN!! My argument is that it comes from Nazism. AND BORMANN DEMOSTRATES THAT!

There is no issue. It is incorrect to say that Bormann subscribed to Hitler's anti-semitism; Hitler's anti-semitism is demonstrated to be of religious nature, therefore Bormann could not subscribe to it. However, Bormann could follow the act of extreme anti-semitism for his own reasons. Hitler's anti-semitism is Hitler's anti-semitism; Bormann's anti-semitism is Bormann's anti-semitism. The two are not interchangable.

Along the same lines, the KKK included members who engaged in racist activities for a variety of personal reasons. They need not all share the same motivation for doing so.

 

Cop out. Do you know how highly Hitler regarded Bormann because they shared the same ideas?

 Then show me Bormann's source for anti-semetism. I'll give you a hint: It was Nazism. Which was my point that Nazism can lead to anti-semetism.

 

Quote:
 

By the way,

Quote:

When Martin Bormann came out with a confidential anti-Christian tract, Hitler objected. According to Steigmann-Gall, “Almost immediately after it was released, Hitler suppressed it, ordering Bormann to retract his statements and recover all the copies he had sent out.”

“The pro-Christian Goebbels, also disagreed with Bormann’s anticlerical activity, along with many other Nazis. Not only was Bormann's decree on the relation of Christianity and National Socialism done in secret, but at no time was there an official Nazi law that tried to destroy Christianity.

This is what Cubed was talking about.

Once again, you stated that Hitler's extreme anti-semitism was secular and his Christianity didn't matter. This is not the case. Furthermore, you can no longer cry, "Bormann!"

Hitler's Christianity did matter. His extreme anti-semitism was the result of his religious beliefs, and Bormann cannot save you.

 

 You're proving my point. 

 

Now, demostrate Bormann's source of anti-semetism and you will be addressing my argument. I'll give you hint: it was Nazism

 

The Nazis hated Jews as a race and thought they are inferior to the superious race that will lead Germany to glory. That is why they were killed off. This is nothing like Christian anti-semetism. It was Eugenics. Unless you can provide religous motives for them killing Seniors and disabled people too.

 

Along with seniors, and the disabled. Or do those have 'religious' motives too? 

 

 

Oh and if Hitler loved Christianity so much and hated atheism, why didn't he have Bormann killed? Hitler stated he needed Bormann by his side. Why would he if Hitler was so Christian/anti-atheist? 

 


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Cpt_pineapple

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
Fateless7 wrote:

There is no issue. It is incorrect to say that Bormann subscribed to Hitler's anti-semitism; Hitler's anti-semitism is demonstrated to be of religious nature, therefore Bormann could not subscribe to it. However, Bormann could follow the act of extreme anti-semitism for his own reasons. Hitler's anti-semitism is Hitler's anti-semitism; Bormann's anti-semitism is Bormann's anti-semitism. The two are not interchangable.

Along the same lines, the KKK included members who engaged in racist activities for a variety of personal reasons. They need not all share the same motivation for doing so.

 

Cop out. Do you know how highly Hitler regarded Bormann because they shared the same ideas?

 

"Cop out" doesn't cut it. You need to refute the argument. Do I know how highly Hitler regarded Bormann because of their shared beliefs? Not enough to allow Bormann to issue an anti-Christian tract.

Quote:

Then show me Bormann's source for anti-semetism. I'll give you a hint: It was Nazism. Which was my point that Nazism can lead to anti-semetism.

Nazism doesn't lead to anti-semitism, anti-semitism is a part of Nazism by default. Hitler's extreme anti-semitism is not. Strasser was a Nazi leader who did not engage in extreme anti-semitism.

I will not allow you to evade your original argument. I will quote your original post again if you insist on being dishonest.

You said what? Yes, that Hitler was a Christian but it didn't matter because he followed a secular ideology.

Hitler maintained a religious ideology, in which he features himself as the "hand of God" delivering God's vengeance against the Jews.

This is not a secular ideology. The more you make me repeat this, the more dishonest you appear. Notice the other posters in the thread who have refuted you also.

 


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The Nazi Belt Buckle:

Nazi Belt Buckle

The Nazi Belt Buckle: "Gott Mitt Uns" - "God With Us".

Not quite secular.

 


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Fateless7

Fateless7 wrote:

Cpt_pineapple wrote:
Fateless7 wrote:

There is no issue. It is incorrect to say that Bormann subscribed to Hitler's anti-semitism; Hitler's anti-semitism is demonstrated to be of religious nature, therefore Bormann could not subscribe to it. However, Bormann could follow the act of extreme anti-semitism for his own reasons. Hitler's anti-semitism is Hitler's anti-semitism; Bormann's anti-semitism is Bormann's anti-semitism. The two are not interchangable.

Along the same lines, the KKK included members who engaged in racist activities for a variety of personal reasons. They need not all share the same motivation for doing so.

 

Cop out. Do you know how highly Hitler regarded Bormann because they shared the same ideas?

 

You quoted links yourself that demostrate Bormann being anit-Christian 

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"Cop out" doesn't cut it. You need to refute the argument. Do I know how highly Hitler regarded Bormann because of their shared beliefs? Not enough to allow Bormann to issue an anti-Christian tract.

 

 

You have to back up your claim that Bormann had an alternate source for anti-semetism.

 

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Then show me Bormann's source for anti-semetism. I'll give you a hint: It was Nazism. Which was my point that Nazism can lead to anti-semetism.

Nazism doesn't lead to anti-semitism, anti-semitism is a part of Nazism by default. Hitler's extreme anti-semitism is not. Strasser was a Nazi leader who did not engage in extreme anti-semitism.

 

I bolded the part where you agree with me.

Now why is anti-semitism part of Nazism by default?

Because they felt that the Jews were inferiors, due to their physical features and hence had to be eliminated. That was Hitler's anit-semitism was routed. That was Hitler's anti-semetism. I'm going to do more research in Strasser, and more likely than not, it will not turn out good for you. 

 

You keep avoiding the pesky Bormann issue.

You can't have you cake and eat it too. Either Bormann was anti-Christian and grasped his anti-semetism from Nazism or not. You have yet to provide an alternate source.

 

 

 

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I will not allow you to evade your original argument. I will quote your original post again if you insist on being dishonest.

You said what? Yes, that Hitler was a Christian but it didn't matter because he followed a secular ideology.

 

Preciously. I am demostrating this, and you are avoiding my arguments. 

 

 

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Hitler maintained a religious ideology, in which he features himself as the "hand of God" delivering God's vengeance against the Jews.

 

I address this in one of my previous posts. Care to read it?

 

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This is not a secular ideology. The more you make me repeat this, the more dishonest you appear. Notice the other posters in the thread who have refuted you also.

 

I have yet to see a decent response to my arguments.