The Miracle of the Cross in the Sky

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The Miracle of the Cross in the Sky

In 1925, on the eve, of the feast of the Exaltation of the All-Honourable and Life-giving Cross of our Saviour, 14 September according to the Orthodox Church calendar, the all-night vigil was served at the church of St. John the Theologian in suburban Athens. By 9 o'clock that evening, more than 2,000 of the true-Orthodox faithful had gathered in and around the church for the service, since very few true-Orthodox churches had been accidentally left open by the civil authorities. Such a large gathering of people could not, however, go unnoticed by the authorities. Around eleven P.M. the authorities dispatched a battalion of police to the church "to prevent any disorders which might arise from such a large gathering." The gathering was too large for the police to take any direct action or to arrest the priest at that time and so they joined the crowd of worshippers in the already over-flowing courtyard of the church.

Then, regardless of the true motives for their presence, against their own will, but according to the Will which exceeds all human power, they became participants in the miraculous experience of the crowd of believers.

At 11:30 P.M., there began to appear in the heavens above the church, in the direction of North-East, a bright, radiant Cross of light. The light not only illuminated the church  and the faithful but, in its rays, the stars of the clear, cloudless sky became dim and the church-yard was filled with an almost tangible light. The form of the Cross itself was an especially dense light and it could be clearly seen as a Byzantine cross with an angular cross bar toward the bottom. This heavenly miracle lasted for half an hour, until midnight, and then the Cross began slowly to raise up vertically, as the cross in the hands of the priest does in the ceremony of the Elevation of the Cross in church. Having come straight up, the Cross began gradually to fade away.

The human language is not adequate to convey what took place during the apparition. The entire crowd fell prostrate upon the ground with tears and began to sing prayers, praising the Lord with one heart and one mouth. The police were among those who wept, suddenly discovering, in the depths of their hearts, a childlike faith. The crowd of believers and the battalion of police were transformed into one, unified flock of faithful. All were seized with a holy ecstasy.

The vigil continued until four A.M., when all this human torrent streamed back into the city, carrying the news of the miracle because of which they were still trembling and weeping.

Many of the unbelievers, sophists and renovationists, realizing their sin and guilt, but unwilling to repent, tried by every means to explain away or deny this miracle. The fact that the form of the cross had been so sharply and clearly that of the Byzantine (sometimes called the Russian Cross) Cross, with three cross-bars, the bottom one at an angle, completely negated any arguments of accidental physical phenomenon.

The fact that such an apparition of the Cross had also occurred during the height of the first great heresy must strike the Orthodox with an especial sense of the magnitude of the importance of the calendar question and of all that is connected with it. No sensible person can discuss this issue lightly, with secular reasoning or with worldly arguments. Renovationists, like the Arians in 351, are left without extenuation or mitigation.

From Orthodox Life, Vol. 22, No. 2 (March-April, 1972), pp. 18-20.

Eyewitness Accounts

Eyewitness Accounts of the Appearance of the Cross over the Church of St. John the Theologian at Mt. Hymettus, September 14, 1925.

I was one of the men from the Police Institute who were sent to stop the vigil that night, some fifty years ago, at the country Church of St. John the Theologian.

The Old Calendarists were keeping vigil there, because it was the eve of the feast of the Exaltation of the Precious Cross (according to the Church Calendar, not the papist! —ed.)

Since many people had gathered - more than two thousand individuals - we did not attempt to seize the priest as we had been ordered, but we sat down quietly in the nearby court and waited for them to finish.

At about 11:30 at night, we heard a loud and strange uproar coming from the shouts of the multitude. Without any delay, we ran to see what was happening - and we saw. The whole multitude of the faithful was in a state of excitement. Some were weeping and others, crying out “Lord, have mercy,” were kneeling and had turned their eyes toward heaven, and yet others were fainting, overwhelmed with great emotion. Then we too looked and beheld the marvel: an enormous radian Cross, very high above the church was illumining the whole area. At first, we were seized with fear, but immediately we came to ourselves and, forgetting the purpose for which we had been sent, we fell to our knees and wept like little children.

Of course, it is superfluous for me to tell you that, filled with emotion, we attended the rest of the vigil to the end - no longer as persecutors, but as faithful Christians. In the morning when we returned to the Institute, we told everyone about the great marvel which we had been deemed worthy to see. Afterwards there was an investigation and all of us swore under oath that we had seen the Precious Cross clearly, high in the sky.

John D. Glymis
Retired Police Officer, 78 years of age
73 Aristotle Street
Peristeri ( a suburb of Athens)

On that night in 1925 when the Precious Cross appeared, I was making the last run with the tram which I was operating. I had reached Omonoia and was going around the square when I saw everyone looking up toward heaven and crying, “Look! - the Cross! - the Cross!” Immediately I stepped on the brakes and stopped the vehicle. I stuck my head out the tram’s door and I, the unworthy one, also saw the Precious Cross of Our Lord - may His Name be glorified; it was shining over Mount Hymettus. I don’t remember how long this lasted. I know only one thing - the Precious Cross which I saw the night turned me into a different man. Since then, everyone in my family has become a faithful child of the Church of the True Orthodox Christians.

Athanasios Primals
Retired Tram Conductor, 80 years of age
17 Kavales Street
Nicea (a suburb of Athens)

The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur


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What possible reason could

What possible reason could there be to post something like this? There's absolutely nothing to be said about such anecdotal twaddle.


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He's probably posting it as

He's probably posting it as an example of how such stories only appear in religious publications and are never backed up by any other reports or authority.


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 That's not always true.

 That's not always true. But secular authorities  have an agenda to discredit miracles in the first place. For example, in 1997 over Arizona there were several UFO sightings. This phenomenon was known as "The Phoenix Lights." They were seen by thousands, and hundreds of hours of video footage were recorded. Nevertheless, the military denied it all. "Deny Everything" seems to be their only policy. Attorney Peter Gerston of Phoenix, sued the state of Arizona for their failure to protect U.S. citizens and for their refusal to disclose the truth about what really happened.  People are tired of all the BS and lies the secular governments come up with in order to keep people in darkness.

I gave two eyewitness testimonies from two police officers who actually saw the Cross in 1925, and their own addresses. I also gave the source of the story.

The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur


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If you're trying to make me

If you're trying to make me do a spit-take, you're close to succeeding. Have you ever read the book, "Behold! A Pale Horse?" It's chock full of stuff from "reliable sources." Did you know there are plans to launch a nuclear warhead into Jupiter? The atmosphere will ignite, creating a second sun to be dubbed "Lucifer."


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Bunch of people who already

Bunch of people who already believe in magical, flying sky-crosses see a magical, flying sky-cross.

Whoopty-fucking-shit. 


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Apotheon wrote: That's

Apotheon wrote:

That's not always true. But secular authorities have an agenda to discredit miracles in the first place. For example, in 1997 over Arizona there were several UFO sightings. This phenomenon was known as "The Phoenix Lights." They were seen by thousands, and hundreds of hours of video footage were recorded. Nevertheless, the military denied it all. "Deny Everything" seems to be their only policy. Attorney Peter Gerston of Phoenix, sued the state of Arizona for their failure to protect U.S. citizens and for their refusal to disclose the truth about what really happened. People are tired of all the BS and lies the secular governments come up with in order to keep people in darkness.

I gave two eyewitness testimonies from two police officers who actually saw the Cross in 1925, and their own addresses. I also gave the source of the story.

There is a huge difference between the Phoenix Lights and your story.

Your story (including the witnesses) appears in one source, which is rather suspicious to begin with.  The Phoenix Lights were seen, filmed and photograhped.  There's really no comparison between the two.

Are you saying that the Phoenix Lights were a sign from god? 


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If there really was a

If there really was a miraculous cross in the sky, why didn't the whole city of Athens see it instead of only those at the church?


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 Eight, the police

 Eight, the police officers were there to supervise the celebration event of the church vigil. They were not necessarily believers. Nevertheless, they also witnessed the event and fell prostate in tears.

 

My mentioning the Phoenix Lights was not to compare the events. I only brought it up to show that despite good and hard evidence, the military denied the sightings. So it is reasonable to  conclude that even if the secular city of Athens saw the cross, they also would have covered it up. But I don't think they saw it. In religious history, God usually honors the faithful with such visions. In 1925, the Greek Orthodox Church was going through a transition. The "official" leaders of the Church, began a campaign to change the Church's Calendar. This was tragic for faithful and traditional Christians because the Julian Calendar that they used, was the same Calendar the apostles and the Church always used. The "official" leaders had compromised by adopting the papal (popes) Gregorian Calendar, the Calendar we use today. This might seem like a small matter to modern Americans, but to faithful Greek Christians in 1925, this was the first step in a series of successive compromises of their Churches tradition. It was the first attempt by the compromising leaders to collaborate with the Catholic Church to make the Eastern (Greek) Church more Latin. That is, Roman Catholic.

 

The sign of the cross in the sky, was a way of God showing the faithful Christians His endorsement and approval of them to remain faithful to the Churchs tradition by staying with the old traditional Calendar.

So there would have been no need or reason for this phenomenon to be seen by those in the inner city who had already compromised by adopting the new Calendar. God gave this as a sign to those who refused compromise. The police just happened to be at the right place at the right time.

 

But I don't know for certain that others in the city did not see it. I just gave a plausable explanation as to why they might not have seen it.

 

Someone might argue it was a hallucination. But this is very unlikely. None of the 2,000 people, nor the police, were expecting to see anything. Expectation is a pre-requisite for hallucinations. Second, it is impossible for 2,000 people to see an identicle hallucination at the exact same place, for the exact amount of time (30 minutes), and the exact same time (11:30). We are not talking one or two people. We are talking over 2,000.

The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur


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A theological publication

A theological publication reports that a crowd of adherents saw something in the sky (it wasn't seen by the general population, and it wasn't photographed). This is confirmed by police who may or may not have been believers themselves (whaddya wanna bet the demographics were?), and further confirmed because the Greek government would have covered it up.
That's your story, yeah?


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Somebody needs to tell God

Somebody needs to tell God to quit dicking around with useless miracles like making crosses appear and instead get back to feeding the poor with magic fish and raising the dead and curing lepers and overthrowing oppressive governments. Even restocking someone's wedding with wine would at least provide a tangible benefit to somebody.

Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.


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Apotheon wrote:

Apotheon wrote:
Eight, the police officers were there to supervise the celebration event of the church vigil. They were blah blah ........................the 2,000 people, nor the police, were expecting to see anything. Expectation is a pre-requisite for hallucinations. Second, it is impossible for 2,000 people to see an identicle hallucination at the exact same place, for the exact amount of time (30 minutes), and the exact same time (11:30). We are not talking one or two people. We are talking over 2,000.

The thing I see that's very strange about this story is that it seems like you can read and write, so I would guess you are not retarded. And, other than that you would believe a fairy tale such as this to be true, it appears that you are not completely insane. So, I have to wonder what IS your problem?


One thing that stands out is that it looks like you are incapable of analyzing information or you refuse to analyze any story that supports your fantasy of 'god'.

What sticks out prominently in this story is that the so called witnesses must have been struck deaf and dumb the very next day or they all must have contracted amnesia because nothing has been mentioned concerning this 'miracle' past this account.

PLUS there is no church of St. John the Theologian listed. http://www.athensguide.com/practicalinfo/churches.htm

Surely it would not have been torn down because a 'miracle' happened there! This church is not on any tour guide list either! SHOCKING!


People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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Apotheon wrote: The sign

Apotheon wrote:

The sign of the cross in the sky, was a way of God showing the faithful Christians His endorsement and approval of them to remain faithful to the Churchs tradition by staying with the old traditional Calendar.

So there would have been no need or reason for this phenomenon to be seen by those in the inner city who had already compromised by adopting the new Calendar. God gave this as a sign to those who refused compromise. The police just happened to be at the right place at the right time.

But I don't know for certain that others in the city did not see it. I just gave a plausable explanation as to why they might not have seen it.

OK. This is the problem I have with religious experiences. I'm not doubting these people had this experience, and that it changed their lives. But, it's not evidence for me for two reasons. (1) I didn't experience it, and (2) I can't objectively verify it (e.g. it wasn't seen by all of Athens). Even by your own admission, this was a sign for the faithful. So, don't be surprised that we atheist here don't except the story.


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Maybe a little Occam's

Maybe a little Occam's Razor?

Mass hallucinations are very, very improbable ... but not nearly as improbable as a god doing it.  I think an analogy using magic is in order.  Penn & Teller do a magic trick, say their magic bullet trick ...

http://www.youtube.com/v/DjDcARq8ty8

... now there are two possibilities for how this is done: (1) Penn & Teller are magic ... they actually caught bullets, shot out of real fire arms, in their teeth ... or (2) they are world class illusionists, and while we may not know how exactly this trick was achieved, it certainly wasn't extra- or supernatural.  It is fully explainable through (for lack of a better term) methodological naturalism. 

However improbable it is that a crowd of people hallucinated, it is (thousands ... millions of times) more improbable that a god exists (a complex being with creativity, intelligence, and the ability to suspend natural law, etc.) and that that same god caused this apparition.

Watch this video and pay careful attention to Dr. Shermer's discussion of the probablity of causes in the beginning (... & ignore the clown music TED uses - I've been wanting them to change that music for over a year now ...) 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6173390228621179433&q=shermer+ted&total=14&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=5

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The Pheonix Lights were

The Pheonix Lights were military flares slowly falling to the Earth with small parachutes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Lights 

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca


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You say that "Expectation

You say that "Expectation is required for a hallucination to work" or something similar. You were hoping to use that debunk any statement that these people were hallucinating.

You forgot that your OP provided just that expectation with this clause:

"By 9 o'clock that evening, more than 2,000 of the true-Orthodox faithful had gathered in and around the church for the service..."

Religion is based on expectations and its followers come hoping and praying for some movement of their God.

Prime candidates for hallucinations. 

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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JeremiahSmith

JeremiahSmith wrote:
Somebody needs to tell God to quit dicking around with useless miracles like making crosses appear and instead get back to feeding the poor with magic fish and raising the dead and curing lepers and overthrowing oppressive governments.

 

Well, this is god, a lazy whiny prick.

should you expect anything from him? no 

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Apotheon wrote: The sign

Apotheon wrote:

The sign of the cross in the sky, was a way of God showing the faithful Christians His endorsement and approval of them to remain faithful to the Churchs tradition by staying with the old traditional Calendar.

So there would have been no need or reason for this phenomenon to be seen by those in the inner city who had already compromised by adopting the new Calendar. God gave this as a sign to those who refused compromise. The police just happened to be at the right place at the right time.

 

But I don't know for certain that others in the city did not see it. I just gave a plausable explanation as to why they might not have seen it.

Here's another plausible explanation: it wasn't there.

Quote:

Someone might argue it was a hallucination. But this is very unlikely. None of the 2,000 people, nor the police, were expecting to see anything. Expectation is a pre-requisite for hallucinations.

You mean like with hallucinogenic compounds?

Quote:
Second, it is impossible for 2,000 people to see an identicle hallucination at the exact same place, for the exact amount of time (30 minutes), and the exact same time (11:30). We are not talking one or two people. We are talking over 2,000.

Is it impossible for 2000 predisposed, unhappy people to be convinced by someone that they are seeing something they want to see at a time they would gain some comfort by seeing it?

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This reminds me of the

This reminds me of the story about my great-grandmother's cat. You see, this cat pooped diamonds. No really! It's true! Now, I don't have any of the diamonds, probably because government operatives stole the cat and all the diamonds in an attempt to study her. Those "blood diamonds" you hear about? Well, they would be more aptly termed "cat-shit diamonds." In fact, we used to run a little sideshow attraction, and I bet over 500 people came in a single day to see the cat shitting diamonds.

True story.


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aiia wrote: PLUS there is

aiia wrote:
PLUS there is no church of St. John the Theologian listed. http://www.athensguide.com/practicalinfo/churches.htm

Surely it would not have been torn down because a 'miracle' happened there! This church is not on any tour guide list either! SHOCKING!

I found a reference to it on this page:

http://www.greekislands.com/athens/monplaka.htm

The text itself:

At the corner of Erechtheos and Erotokritou St. is the small Byzantine church of St. John the Theologian, a building from the 9th century AD, in a tiny area with trees, small cafes and taverns.

 

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Sounds like somebody set

Sounds like somebody set alight the beacon of Athens, which I just remembered is cross shaped.  It was probably Zut, evil, wicked naughty Zut.

A cross shaped beacon?

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Apotheon wrote: At about

Apotheon wrote:

At about 11:30 at night, we heard a loud and strange uproar coming from the shouts of the multitude. Without any delay, we ran to see what was happening - and we saw. The whole multitude of the faithful was in a state of excitement. Some were weeping and others, crying out “Lord, have mercy,” were kneeling and had turned their eyes toward heaven, and yet others were fainting, overwhelmed with great emotion. Then we too looked and beheld the marvel: an enormous radian Cross, very high above the church was illumining the whole area. At first, we were seized with fear, but immediately we came to ourselves and, forgetting the purpose for which we had been sent, we fell to our knees and wept like little children.

John D. Glymis
Retired Police Officer, 78 years of age
73 Aristotle Street
Peristeri ( a suburb of Athens)

Absolute bollocks. Apotheon, have you ever seen a police report? Or anything written by a police officer? I have - I was engaged to a policeman's daughter once. For your edification, this is what the report would have looked like had a police officer actually wrote it:

John D. Glymis wrote:

At approx. 11:30 crowd disturbance begins. Investigated cause of said disturbance immediately. Crowd was experiencing mass hysteria. Witnessed large burning cross in sky. Forensic examination of area required to determine presence of airborne hallucinagenics.

Police officers never wax lyrical, even when they are off duty.

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UltraMonk wrote:

UltraMonk wrote:
aiia wrote:
PLUS there is no church of St. John the Theologian listed. http://www.athensguide.com/practicalinfo/churches.htm

Surely it would not have been torn down because a 'miracle' happened there! This church is not on any tour guide list either! SHOCKING!

I found a reference to it on this page:

http://www.greekislands.com/athens/monplaka.htm

The text itself:

At the corner of Erechtheos and Erotokritou St. is the small Byzantine church of St. John the Theologian, a building from the 9th century AD, in a tiny area with trees, small cafes and taverns.

 

Damn you're right and check this out, there's a beach nearby also.

Laughing

But there's more problems Apotheon, in 1925 didn't anyone have a telephone? Or a camera? And the population of Athens at the time was probably at least a 100,000 or more. Was this 'god' up in the clouds picking out who should be allowed to see this hallucination and putting blindfolds on the other 100,000 people?

People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.


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In 1998, on the eve, of the

In 1998, on the eve, of the feast Thanksgiving, 25 September according to the calendars that everyone use, the all-night feast was served at the house of the New Orlean Saints Quarterback, Jake Delhomme. By 9 o'clock that evening, more than 2,000 of the Saints faithful fans had gathered in and around the house for the feast, since very few true-Saints fans housesches had been accidentally left open because people are irresponsible. Such a large gathering of people could not, however, go unnoticed by the authorities. Around eleven P.M. the authorities dispatched a battalion of police to the house"to prevent any disorders which might arise from such a large gathering." The gathering was too large for the police to take any direct action or to arrest the Quarterback at that time and so they joined the crowd of fans in the already over-flowing courtyard of the house.

Then, regardless of the true motives for their presence, against their own will, but according to the Will which exceeds all human power, they became participants in the miraculous experience of the crowd of believers.

At 11:30 P.M., there began to appear in the heavens above the church, in the direction of North-East, a bright, radiant Fleur de Lis. The light not only illuminated the house and the fans but, in its rays, the stars of the clear, cloudless sky became dim and the house was filled with an almost tangible light. The form of the Fleur de Lis itself was an especially dense light and it could be clearly seen as the New Orleans Saints logo. This heavenly miracle lasted for half an hour, until midnight, and then the Fleur de Lis began slowly to raise up vertically, as the Fleur de Lis in the hands of the quarterback does when he throws a touchdown pass. Having come straight up, the Fleur de Lis began gradually to fade away.

The human language is not adequate to convey what took place during the apparition. The entire crowd fell prostrate upon the ground with tears and began to chant "Go SAINTS GO" and "D-FENCE", praising the team with one heart and one mouth. The police were among those who wept, suddenly discovering, in the depths of their hearts, a childlike faith. The crowd of believers and the battalion of police were transformed into one, unified flock of faithful. All were seized with a team spirit.

The celebration continued until four A.M., when all this human torrent streamed back into the city, carrying the news of the miracle because of which they were still trembling and weeping.

Many of the unbelievers, mainly people who hated the saints, realizing they kind of liked the saints , but unwilling to admit, tried by every means to explain away or deny this awesome display of team spirit. The fact that the form of the Fleur de Lis had been so sharply and clearly that of the logo (sometimes associated with the Court of King Loius XIV), with an awesome shape, completely negated any arguments of accidental physical phenomenon.

The fact that such an apparition of the Cross had also occurred during the height of the first great loss must strike the teams fans with an especial sense of the magnitude of the importance of the calendar question and of all that is connected with it. No sensible person can discuss this issue lightly, with secular reasoning or with worldly arguments.

Anyone can write stories. 


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I said this in another

I said this in another thread, but I think it works here too: 

 

Quote:
Salvadore Dali claimed that he and his wife, Gala, could achieve simultaneous orgasms, while in different rooms at their vast estate in Catalonia, Spain - He was not known to be a liar, just an eccentric artist ...

I would agree that there are events and phenomena that are unexplained (perhaps even unexplainable).  But why would you assume (or ignorantly deduce) a supernatural explanation for an unexplained event, or claim that the inexplicable nature of this event is evidence for the construct of the "soul"?  [This is like primitive man hearing thunder, seeing lightning and saying, "there must be something up in the sky that did this ... And his name is Zeus!" ]

Also, how would a supernatural explanation lead us to understand the causality or the process by which the inexplicable event occured?

What you have proposed is a God of the Gaps, nothing more.

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  Even if an investigation

 

Even if an investigation hadn't been done and the phoenix lights hadn't been determined to be military flares, a denial of the events by the military doesn't mean that a miracle happened and the military doesn't want people to believe it. That smells like a miracle-believer's propoganda. The military can also deny things because they are classified. Even perfectly natural things. Tests they might be running, for example. If you don't know the full explanation for something, you can't just fill in the gaps with the story you like best.

A place common to all will be maintained by none. A religion common to all is perhaps not much different.


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Hey, who can argue with eye

Hey, who can argue with eye witnesses?

 

After all.. look at all these people that have seen a real leprechaun:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nda_OSWeyn8

 

Laughing


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Archeopteryx

Archeopteryx wrote:

 

Even if an investigation hadn't been done and the phoenix lights hadn't been determined to be military flares, a denial of the events by the military doesn't mean that a miracle happened and the military doesn't want people to believe it. That smells like a miracle-believer's propoganda. The military can also deny things because they are classified. Even perfectly natural things. Tests they might be running, for example. If you don't know the full explanation for something, you can't just fill in the gaps with the story you like best.

I lived in Phoenix (actually, in the East Valley) and saw the "Phoenix Lights".  I didn't have a camera with me since I just came out of a restaurant in downtown Tempe next to ASU.  They were pretty cool and I didn't know what they were.  But one thing was sure - I didn't automatically jump to the conclusion that they were UFO's.  I was fascinated by the reactions that other people were having around me.  Most everyone thought that the unexplained lights were lights from one gigantic UFO.  Others thought that the lights were coming from several UFO's (and thus, could be a possible invasion...)  The religious thought that it was a "sign" of the second coming - a young man began to engage in street preaching on Mill Ave., encouraging everyone to repent of their sin and turn to god. 

Sure, the lights were suspended in the sky and slowly drifted.  The media hyped up the mystery. 

I come from a military family.  There were 2 large air force bases in the Valley (one has since closed).  It was no surprise to me when I heard that the lights were flares from military aircraft.

Eyewitnesses?  The credibility of any eyewitness should be met with skepticism.  People don't usually filter unexplainable events with rational thinking; even I experienced a kind of rush seeing the lights.  In situations like that, people see what they want to see, believe what they want to believe, and deny any other evidence to the contrary that doesn't fit into their world view. 

I live in Southern Arizona now and there is still talk about the Phoenix Lights, even around here.  We have some pretty dark nights giving us access to see some pretty awesome skies and incredible views of the Milky Way; the Kitt Peak observatory can be seen from my front door.  Even though it's been reported that the lights came from flares, some will argue that it's a UFO coverup while others still believe that it's a sign of the times.

The only thing "miraculous" about the Phoenix Lights that evening was that it was a show stopper on Mill Ave.  Nothing more.

Crocoduck - A missing transitional link that theists have been hoping does not exist...


zarathustra
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Reconstruction of lost posts

Reconstruction of lost posts


DiRitual
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Apotheon - I only

Apotheon - I only registered onto this forum so that I could pass along a message about the Miracle of the cross in the sky - Ref: "the feast of the Exaltation of the All-Honourable and Life-giving Cross of our Saviour". You really took a beating with this and I am here to say that I absolutely believe your story. I am going to help corroborate your findings.

Sometime during the winter of 1973 I was driving from Stratford Iowa to Cherokee Iowa. In the car was my wife and mother in law. We were returning from visiting relatives in Stratford. It was night and very cold. We were about halfway through an eighty mile trip when the sky lit up. Not sure what it was but it was awesome and scary. It was way too cold for lightening. It could have been a meteorite or a satellite re-entering the atmosphere. This is not the event I want to talk about but what was said by my mother in law, Opal.

She related that when she was a young girl living on the farm near Stratford she witnessed a cross in the sky during a church outting when she was almost 11 years old. Opal was born Oct 28, 1914. What she described was the following:

It was a late summer day and it was on a Sunday and that it was just before school started again after summer vacation. The day was bright, warm and clear. During the outing the sky turned dark and a cross as you described lit the sky. Her description of the pandemonium that followed mirrored your initial post as you describe what the crowd in Athens was doing. This was a Missouri Synod Lutheran Church in the heartland of Americana. Opal was a most devout worshipper and had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. She was saved and lives with Our Father in heaven now.

Now, I read your post with much interest and then a question came into my head. What day of the week was Sep. 14 1925? In mere seconds I had a 1925 calendar displayed on my screen. The day was a Monday and I said to my wife that this was so close. I was so hoping that it was a Sunday. That is when it clicked into my mind that the Greek Church was using the old calendar. I revisited the calander and was quite amazed and pleased to see that 15 days prior was Aug 30, 1925 a Sunday! Given the time difference between Athens and the US Central time zone the timing would have been just about right. Opal had related that they were at a church picnic when the event took place. 11:30 PM in Athens = 3:30PM US CST. (Daylight savings time did not exist in Iowa in 1925) Opal remembered that the picnic attendees all ran into the church when the event began.

I am continueing to research this event and will relate any pertinent information on said subject when any is available. Please do not debate me. I am not here to debate. I will not respond to anything negative about the subject. I will only respond to those of you who are sincerely interested in giving this matter credibility. If you don't have anything to corroborate then please keep whatever it is to yourself. I am not fond of debating online. I have more important things to do. I am here merely to testify to a possibly related or a part of the very same event.



JeremiahSmith
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Joined: 2006-11-25


DiRitual wrote:

I am continueing to research this event and will relate any pertinent information on said subject when any is available. Please do not debate me. I am not here to debate.

You're just here to preach then? Sorry, friend, unlike your Christian friends, we don't just roll over and let it slide when people come to our forums and talk nonsense.

Quote:

I will not respond to anything negative about the subject.

Of course you won't, you're just here to preach. Unfortunately you probably won't get anything else besides negative responses, because pretty much every other poster here knows that this is a ridiculous story.

Quote:

I will only respond to those of you who are sincerely interested in giving this matter credibility. If you don't have anything to corroborate then please keep whatever it is to yourself.

I'm here to corroborate reality.

Quote:

I am not fond of debating online. I have more important things to do.

Then stop preaching to people by telling them idiotic nonsense and go do those more important things.

We already know that the original story cited by Apotheon is ridiculous. You're not going to change that fact by citing a third-hand story you heard thirty-four years ago about something that happened forty-eight years prior to that, and try to claim your eighty-two year old story is corroboration of Apotheon's by fiddling around with dates.

You would think that if a church group in Missouri had seen the same miracle that Apotheon describes, that detail would have made its way into the story Apotheon tells since it obviously makes the miracle seem even more amazing. Yet the first mention of it comes from you relating a story that's decades old.

PRAISE JAYSUS



zarathustra
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Apparently, a bunch of people in Missouri and a bunch of people in Athens were the only ones who looked in the sky that day. The rest of the world must have been passed out, after drinking too much the night before.

DiRitual wrote:

I will only respond to those of you who are sincerely interested in giving this matter credibility.

I certainly don't blame you. To do otherwise would bereave the matter of all credibility.

I would like to know which church gets to claim this miracle for their own: the greek orthodoxies, or the Missouri sinud?





DeathMunkyGod
Posts: 175
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We also can't forget the old magician's trick of mass hypnosis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_hypnosis#Mass_application

December 22, 2007 - 11:33pm login or register to post comments
BMcD
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DiRitual wrote: Now, I

DiRitual wrote:

Now, I read your post with much interest and then a question came into my head. What day of the week was Sep. 14 1925? In mere seconds I had a 1925 calendar displayed on my screen. The day was a Monday and I said to my wife that this was so close. I was so hoping that it was a Sunday. That is when it clicked into my mind that the Greek Church was using the old calendar.

I am not offering this to 'debate' you in any way. I simply have one question, not about the event, but about your logic in equating them:

Greece adopted the Gregorian calendar on Thursday, Mar 1 1923 (immediately following Wed, Feb 15 1923). Why would a church in Greece be using the Julian calendar 30 months after the change? Wouldn't that have skewed their liturgies and feast days when compared to the Patriarch in Istanbul?



DiRitual
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zarathustra wrote:

Apparently, a bunch of people in Missouri and a bunch of people in Athens were the only ones who looked in the sky that day. The rest of the world must have been passed out, after drinking too much the night before.



zarathustra - Did I say ithe church was in Missouri? I suggest that you take a remedial reading course. How can you argue facts when you can not read?


DiRitual
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DeathMunkyGod wrote:

We also can't forget the old magician's trick of mass hypnosis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_hypnosis#Mass_application



DeathMunkyGod - And now I suppose that Wikipedia is a reliable source of information? I'm not even going there.


BMcD
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DiRitual - quite a lot of people outside of the Lutheran faith might not realize that 'Missouri Synod' is a denomination of the Lutheran church, and does not necessarily mean a synod IN Missouri.

As you never said 'Stratford, Iowa', for example, it's not a difficult mistake to make.

December 22, 2007 - 11:42pm login or register to post comments
DiRitual
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DeathMunkyGod wrote:We

doublepost

December 22, 2007 - 11:42pm login or register to post comments
DiRitual
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BMcD wrote: DiRitual -

BMcD wrote:

DiRitual - quite a lot of people outside of the Lutheran faith might not realize that 'Missouri Synod' is a denomination of the Lutheran church, and does not necessarily mean a synod IN Missouri.

As you never said 'Stratford, Iowa', for example, it's not a difficult mistake to make.



BMcD - Perhaps you should join zarathustra with the remedial reading. Maybe the two of you could car pool and get your GEDs together. What part of Stratford Iowa in the following sentence do you not understand?

"Sometime during the winter of 1973 I was driving from Stratford Iowa to Cherokee Iowa." See Dick read?


BMcD
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The part where, for people skimming through the first bit, you clearly state that Opal grew up near Stratford, Iowa, instead of just 'a farm near Stratford', given that you mention the state in passing early on and then when you get to the meat of your story, present 'Missouri Synod Lutheran Church' in nice, attention-grabbing capitalization.

My apologies for not being clearer in saying 'you never said 'Stratford, Iowa' in direct connection with Opal's experience, only your drive'. I am, however, a little curious: I've not offered you any attack, only asked one question about your chain of logic, and offered an explanation to possibly account for someone else's misreading.

Tell me, when giving Testimonies, do you always respond to questioners with insults and condescenscion? Does that actually get people to consider your points, or just dismiss you as a prick? I can't imagine it's a terribly successful way to demonstrate God's love and infinite patience.


JeremiahSmith
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BMcD wrote:

Tell me, when giving Testimonies, do you always respond to questioners with insults and condescenscion?

Hey, it's an improvement. I thought DiRitual said he wasn't going to respond to negative people at all!

Note that he's only replied to correct people on the location of the second miracle and then to complain about Wikipedia links. He's replied to nothing else, particularly the use of the differing calendars, or the fact that anyone with a brain would realize that this was a case of religious mass hysteria.


zarathustra
Posts: 604
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DiRitual wrote:

zarathustra - Did I say ithe church was in Missouri? I suggest that you take a remedial reading course. How can you argue facts when you can not read?

I know you said your grandma was living in Iowa, but you also said "Missouri sinud" and you mentioned a "church outing". Not having intimate knowledge of the Missouri sinud (must've missed class that day when the teacher talked about it - oh darn), I did not immediately consider that its tentacles spread beyond the borders of its eponymous state. I suppose I could have called the Missouri sinud information hotline to clarify, but I assumed they were all away from the phones, waiting for another cross to fly through the sky.

Obviously, my misreading of your post proves that there was a flying cross eighty-something years ago. Buy some lotion and celebrate.



Bulldog
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Sounds to me like someone added a little magic mushroom to the punch bowl.


Jonasnz1
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If, this event did take place, I would still take the time to analyze the event.

1. what was the star configuration and planetary alignment, as seen in that geographical area on that date. "many objects can seem overly bright at time, and under certain conditions"

2. where there any comets that should have been visable at the time of the event.

3. I personally have looked at bright light, and seen an aurora, that had what appeared to be light flare. (http://th.physik.uni-frankfurt.de/~scherer/Blogging/Mira/Mira_VisibleUV_large.jpg)

4. Was the report made by reliable sources, and did it appear in more than one paper or periodicle?

"ever read the Weekly world News"?

5. Are there any photographs of said event?

A camera tends to see light differently than the human eye.

This event, falls under this catogory im afraid.

quote "100% of surviving cancer patients that prayed to god, are still alive!"

The event you describe, is explainable by science "light flare"

The funny thing about religious events, is they tend to be obscure, and not recorded by reliable sources. "and have no substatial proof."

.The world flood. "No geological evidence"

.First born of Egypt death. "certainly this one would have been recorded by some Egyptian writer?"

.The ten commandments. "what? the word of god, written by the man himself, in stone no less, and no one saved them?"

Simple pottery survives for thousands of years, and stone tablets can't?


Watcher
Posts: 432
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1. The light that filled

1. The light that filled the London sky for a few seconds one december night in 1814 was witnessed by thousands. John Wallis, among many, described it:

"...at about 20 minutes before 11, I was walking in an open part of the village of Peckham...The night was cloudy and dark, the lower part of the atmosphere clear and calm...Suddenly I was surrounded by a great light. I remember that at the instant I shrunk downward and stooped forward; as I was apprehensive of some danger behind me, I instantly ran a few paces. I turned about in a few seconds...But I saw nothing to cause this light. It did not give me the idea of the force and intensity of lightning; it's brilliancy was not so instantaneous and fierce; but it was a softer and paler kind of light, and lasted perhaps three seconds, I could discover no noise, though immediately I expected an explosion.

The strength of the light was nearly equal to that of common day-light; all near objects were disctinctly visible...None of the persons I met that night thought it to be lightning, though none of them saw anything but the light."

[Annals of Philosophy, 5:235-36, March 1815]

2. A phantom battle was reported at the village of Buderich in Westphalia, on January 22, 1854:

"Shortly before sunset, an army, of boundless extent, and consisting of infantry, cavalry, and an enormous number of waggons(sic), was observed to proceed across the country in marching order. So distinctly seen were all these appearances, that even the flashing of the firelocks, and the colour of the cavalry uniform, which was white, could be distinguished. This whole array advanced in the direction of the wood of Schafhauser, and as the infantry entered the thicket, and the cavalry drew near, they were all hid at once, with the trees, in a thick smoke. Two houses, also, in flames, were seen with the same distinctness. At sunset the whole phenomenon vanished. As respects the fact, government has taken the evidence of fifty eye-witnesses, who have desposed to a universal agreement respecting the most remarkable appearance."

Local citizens considered it a supernatural "replay" of a battle that had taken place nearby some years earlier. There were no battles anywhere in Germany in January 1854, so the suggestion that it was a mirage of a faraway scene is scarcely more credible.

[Notes and Queries, 1:9:267, March 1854]

How many more do you want? I got a whole book on strange shit that people have seen. Mysteries of the unexplained from The Reader's Digest Association, Inc.

I've got stories about people fading from the sight of dozens of people, never to be found again. I've got stories of live Pteradactyls being found in rocks in France. I've got stories of green people washing up on the shores of Spain. Of frogs raining from the sky.

Are you going to believe all those stories too, Apotheon? Or just the ones that help you to cling to christianity?



DiRitual
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Food for thought.

I believe that atheists are far more Bible studied than some of the most devout Christians. Given that you know what it says and are well informed on its "myths" and so given that and the belief that there is nothing after physical death then I would say be as pagan and hedonistic as possible. Go for all the gusto life has to offer cause you only live once. If you are right when you die you will never know anything about your life or anything ever again. So what would it have meant? One more thought; what if you are wrong?


JeremiahSmith
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DiRitual wrote:

Food for thought.

I believe that atheists are far more Bible studied than some of the most devout Christians. Given that you know what it says and are well informed on its "myths" and so given that and the belief that there is nothing after physical death then I would say be as pagan and hedonistic as possible. Go for all the gusto life has to offer cause you only live once. If you are right when you die you will never know anything about your life or anything ever again. So what would it have meant? One more thought; what if you are wrong?

So after supporting a ridiculous story with a decades-old third-hand account, you follow it up with the oh-so-original topics of "Why aren't you all nihilists?" and Pascal's Wager. What kind of substandard Christian debater are they churning out over in your neck of the woods?

Does it feel good to know that you are a very silly man who believes very silly things?


magilum
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DiRitual wrote:

Food for thought.

I believe that atheists are far more Bible studied than some of the most devout Christians. Given that you know what it says and are well informed on its "myths"

You can take myths out of quotes until you can point to something beyond popularity to distinguish Yahweh from Poseidon in terms of credibility.

DiRitual wrote:

and so given that and the belief that there is nothing after physical death then I would say be as pagan and hedonistic as possible.

Except that I think your religion takes undue credit for the basic moral inclinations that remain in its absence, and have developed independently, so no. If the true libertine exists, it's in your repressed fantasies.

DiRitual wrote:

Go for all the gusto life has to offer cause you only live once.

You say this ironically, but why?

DiRitual wrote:

If you are right when you die you will never know anything about your life or anything ever again.

It didn't bother me before I was born, to paraphrase Twain.

DiRitual wrote:

So what would it have meant?

Because I don't get the incentive of partying with Jesus's ghost, or forcing myself to laugh at Yahweh's jokes, for all eternity? Like I said before, your god is in no position to bestow meaning. (Edit: I think I said it to someone else, but I can post the premise here if need be.)

DiRitual wrote:

One more thought; what if you are wrong?

What if you're in the wrong religion? What if there's a god that doesn't want to be believed in, and you're pissing him off with your thoughts? Your argument is called Pascal's Wager, and it sucks the sweat off my balls.


Watcher
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DiRitual wrote:

Food for thought.

I believe that atheists are far more Bible studied than some of the most devout Christians. Given that you know what it says and are well informed on its "myths" and so given that and the belief that there is nothing after physical death then I would say be as pagan and hedonistic as possible. Go for all the gusto life has to offer cause you only live once. If you are right when you die you will never know anything about your life or anything ever again. So what would it have meant? One more thought; what if you are wrong?

Be as hedonistic as possible eh?

Unfortunately what I want out of life does not allow me to be hedonistic. I want to be a good person. I want to be a good husband and father. So I have given up the idea to just going for personal pleasure by making myself responsible and raising my daughters. Taking care of kids really put a cramp on the hedonistic lifestyle. Plus I think there are better things in life that just being hedonistic.

I do like the idea of being pagan though. Actually I have my pagan winter solstice tree in my living room right now. Tomorrow we will engage in the pagan tradition of trading gifts and feasting. Just a few days after that we will celebrate my youngest's birthday. This is also a pagan tradition. Let's go pagan all the way!

As far as what if I'm wrong, I've thought of that. I was indoctrinated from birth to believe in the abrahamic god. I was raised to fear hell. And well...it's rather ridiculous. All I have to do in life is accept jesus? That's it? Then I can sin and be a dirtbag and all my sins are washed away after a quick telepathic, "I'm sorry" to god? I mean really. There is not one, tiny bit more security to what if your wrong if you do pick a religion. None.

What if the Baptists are right? What if the Catholics are right? What if the Mormons are right? What if the Muslims are right? And on and on and on, for the rest of the day. It's the biggest crapshoot every devised by man.

I have no fear of hell any longer.


BMcD
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DiRitual wrote:

Food for thought.

I believe that atheists are far more Bible studied than some of the most devout Christians. Given that you know what it says and are well informed on its "myths" and so given that and the belief that there is nothing after physical death then I would say be as pagan and hedonistic as possible. Go for all the gusto life has to offer cause you only live once. If you are right when you die you will never know anything about your life or anything ever again. So what would it have meant? One more thought; what if you are wrong?



If I'm right, when I die I will be recycled, my body will return to the earth and be given back to the natural cycle that has given me so much. I have asked many plants and animals to die that I might live. When I die, I will in my turn give of my body as they have given of theirs. If I am wrong, then I at least have the comfort that I have striven to live my life as best I can, to be a good and moral person, and that I have done these things because they are good and right. What do you have? The knowledge that you've behaved out of fear of punishment? Or out of lust for the reward? Is that virtue, then? Is it virtue to do things because of the payoff? Where I'm from, we call that bribery, corruption.

Even by the standards of your own religion, Christ calls on people to follow his example. Do you think he was virtuous in order to get a reward, or virtuous because he truly wanted to be virtuous?

So ask yourself, by all that you've read, all you've been taught, and more, all you've experienced yourself in your personal relationship with your God: Does your divinity want people to be virtuous because they wish to be virtuous, or does he simply want honest politicians: Once bought, they stay bought.

It says quite a lot about you that you think that believing that this life is all there is means that someone should be as hedonistic as possible. Is your fear of hell the only thing that keeps you from drug use, promiscuity, and every other form of carnal indulgence you can find? Are you behaving only because you don't want to be spanked and told to stand in the corner for eternity?

Food for thought, indeed. Have a bite, it's apple-flavored.


BMcD
Posts: 68
Joined: 2006-12-20

Also, let me invite you to consider the words of a man who expresses much of how I feel far better than I could: Penn Jillette.

I admit, I am still at the point that he calls 'atheism'. I don't believe in any god. I have decided that I do not believe there is no god, not because I worry about the existence of the divine, but because I do not think the question can be satisfactorily answered, and I will not assert a belief I cannot prove to others. I feels just as wrong to do so in disavowing the divine as it would to do so in claiming to know it is real. Otherwise, though... I think Penn's got it nailed.


DeathMunkyGod
Posts: 175
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DiRitual wrote:

DeathMunkyGod - And now I suppose that Wikipedia is a reliable source of information? I'm not even going there.

You're right, it's perfectly valid, logically to automatically disregard the information on a site based solely on your own assumption of the site's reliability without also raising relevant objection. *note sarcasm*

http://www.lavish-life.com/apphyp.pdf

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a787911645~db=all~jumptype=rss

http://www.atheists.org/Atheism/music.html

http://www3.bps.org.uk/downloadfile.cfm?file_uuid=A7AF6617-1143-DFD0-7E14-10B42D589040&ext=pdf

http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2006/08/24/consensus-trance/

http://ezinearticles.com/?Ericksonian-Hypnosis-Covert-Hypnosis-Techniques&id=891054

Theses are interesting resources on hypnosis that aren't wikipedia. And from reading them it looks to me that hypnosis could explain more than just groups of religious people experiencing a burning cross in the sky, it could explain all religious experiences, even in individuals. A correlation has been found between hypnotic susceptability and the strength of a person's religious experience. The more susceptible a person to hypnotic suggestion the stronger that person is likely to experience anything mystical...interesting.

 

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


DiRitual
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Are you all that daft? 

Are you all that daft?  The mere fact that you pounce on anyone who has a differing view from you like a pack of wolves only serves to drive one further from your point of view.  Work on subtleties would advance your cause way more than the wolf pack mentality.  You have the same effect as a Bible thumping hard core preacher of doom and gloom has on someone he is trying to convince or more at the same ideals that the Muslim radical fundamentalist have on our sensitivities.  Good day all.


Visual_Paradox
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Hi DiRitual, When people

Hi DiRitual,

When people post outlandish conspiracy theory claims that essentially rest on the shape of a cloud, those people should expect to receive skepticism, questions, rebuttals, and passing remarks from a multitude of people. It goes with the territory.

Stultior stulto fuisti, qui tabellis crederes!


JeremiahSmith
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DiRitual wrote:

DiRitual wrote:

Are you all that daft? The mere fact that you pounce on anyone who has a differing view from you like a pack of wolves only serves to drive one further from your point of view. Work on subtleties would advance your cause way more than the wolf pack mentality. You have the same effect as a Bible thumping hard core preacher of doom and gloom has on someone he is trying to convince or more at the same ideals that the Muslim radical fundamentalist have on our sensitivities. Good day all.

"i give you a third-hand story that is totally crazy that i heard thirty years ago about an amazing miraculous event that happened fifty years earlier that no one ever heard about before now and you don't believe me? arrrrrrgh you atheists are as bad as fundamentalists!"

The atheists here may indeed be "pouncing like a pack of wolves", but that's because wolves are carnivores and your story is made of meat. Plump, juicy, tasty meat. And by "meat" I mean "pure essence of stupid". On a forum dedicated to criticizing the arguments of theists, why did you think everyone would just sit back and think "Hey, some dude talking bullshit! BETTER NOT CALL HIM ON IT BECAUSE HE ASKED US NOT TO"?

 

Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.


Watcher
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DiRitual wrote: Are you

DiRitual wrote:

Are you all that daft?  The mere fact that you pounce on anyone who has a differing view from you like a pack of wolves only serves to drive one further from your point of view.  Work on subtleties would advance your cause way more than the wolf pack mentality.  You have the same effect as a Bible thumping hard core preacher of doom and gloom has on someone he is trying to convince or more at the same ideals that the Muslim radical fundamentalist have on our sensitivities.  Good day all.

It irks you to argue with us doesn't it?  You click off feeling ticked and somewhat confused.  You sit back wondering why we can always tear your beliefs in your religion to shreds.

I remember feeling that many years ago.

Once you realize you are on the wrong side and become an atheist yourself you will never feel that way again when you debate about religion.

"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci


BMcD
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DiRitual wrote: Are you

DiRitual wrote:

Are you all that daft? The mere fact that you pounce on anyone who has a differing view from you like a pack of wolves only serves to drive one further from your point of view. Work on subtleties would advance your cause way more than the wolf pack mentality. You have the same effect as a Bible thumping hard core preacher of doom and gloom has on someone he is trying to convince or more at the same ideals that the Muslim radical fundamentalist have on our sensitivities. Good day all.

Have I 'pounced' on you? I've asked you about the calendar 'correction' you claimed, and I've offered a possible rationale for reading errors you assert were made. You've offered nothing in reply but condescension and insult, so I've asked if this is your normal method for offering testimony. I have, in fact, not piggybacked my questions onto any assertions or attacks you may perceive have been made, nor have any of these statements been coordinated with any of the others. So I find myself curious about exactly how this resembles the actions of a wolf pack?

Have you ever actually observed a wolf pack when it hunts?  You'll find they do not, in fact, simply 'pounce' on their prey, but coordinate their actions to keep the prey disoriented and unable to effectively respond to any one attack.

If anything, we are doing just the opposite: we are not coordinating our criticisms and questions, and really, it would be very much appreciated if you would effectively respond to even one of us, rather than flailing about attempting to respond to all of us in overly-broad strokes where you play the victim.

You are not the victim. You have come here, to this place, which makes no bones about what it is, and you have chosen to join the discussion. If you choose to join the discussion, you must expect people to respond to you. 

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


Wyzaard
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 I'm sorry, I'm somewhat

 

I'm sorry, I'm somewhat confused... how is a flaming cross in the sky or anything else 'miraculous' that may have even occurred evidence for any particular set of metaphysical entities? 

Let's assume that buringin crosses, bleeding statues, and a death-raising savior are all events that actually happened as christians describe... are we then obligated to concede and believe?  Nope... how exactly are ANY set of physical phenomina meaningful evidence for ANY metaphysical schema?  Where's the justified correlation between the two domains?  We can compare empirical patterns to other empirical patterns for cross-examination and converging confirmation sets... but where is our prior knowledge of the metaphysical that would be the only thing that would allow us to verify what in the physical/natural world is a manifestation of metaphysical/supernatural agency?  

Example... why is it more or less likely for this 'Jesus' to be Loki in disguise than a son-of-god?


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I've read about your story

I've read about your story of the miraculous lighted cross in the sky. Turns out it was just the Klan having a rally on the hill across the road.

 

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... The Klan? In Greece?

... The Klan? In Greece?


wavefreak
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BMcD wrote: ... The Klan?

BMcD wrote:
... The Klan? In Greece?

 The light of the fires reflected off some swamp gas and bounced of a layer of the upper atmosphere.

 

Now if you'll kindly look at the little red light ...


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wavefreak wrote: The light

wavefreak wrote:
The light of the fires reflected off some swamp gas and bounced of a layer of the upper atmosphere.

Far more probable... and even if it weren't, which of the infinite number of possible gods/goddesses/spirits/etc are we to choose from as the supernatural agent in change of said miracle?

 

 


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Wyzaard wrote: Far more

Wyzaard wrote:

Far more probable... and even if it weren't, which of the infinite number of possible gods/goddesses/spirits/etc are we to choose from as the supernatural agent in change of said miracle?

My money is on He/She/It/They-Who-May-Or-May-Not-Be Kelhain (who may or may not be the Supreme Being... the First Church of the Metric Week's pretty non-committal on that). 

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid


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One of the problems with

One of the problems with miracle accounts is that even if a certain "miracle" could be established as such, we can't say for certain that any particular deity or "supernatural" entity is responsible for it. There are competing explanations. Here's just one: perhaps this cross in the sky was a mental projection created by the unconscious minds of the believers who saw it. This is not to say that it was some kind of collective hallucination. Let's grant the phenomenon's physicality for a moment. Ok, well perhaps this cross was willed into existence by the people who observed it. Perhaps our minds are capable of manipulating reality, especially during times of emotional duress or when there is some sort of expectation for a "miracle" to occur. Sound implausible? Sure. But it's no more implausible than God.

In fact, my miracle theory fits the facts better. Aren't there miracle accounts in ALL religions? If a bunch of Hindus claim to see something corroborating their beliefs, and a bunch of Eastern Orthodox Christians claim to see something corroborating their beliefs, and similar experiences happen to Catholics and Protestants and Jews, then we are presented with a quandary, aren't we? This must mean that all religions are valid. But how can contradictory religions all have the same validity? Perhaps no religion has any validity, and all of these "miracles" are just distortions of reality being carried out by the unconscious forces of our own minds.

Once again, this sounds implausible, and I'm certainly not throwing this out there as a theory to be taken seriously. But what I'm suggesting is that it's biased to automatically assume that God is responsible for some given occurence even if we are going to grant the possibility of miracles.

Something else I'd like to point out is that this miracle report is pretty transparent as a polemical device since it occurred within the context of a religious controversy. 

The correct way of understanding our existence is as conceptually created entities superimposed upon our changing mental and bodily states.


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Didymos wrote: One of the

Didymos wrote:

One of the problems with miracle accounts is that even if a certain "miracle" could be established as such, we can't say for certain that any particular deity or "supernatural" entity is responsible for it. There are competing explanations. Here's just one: perhaps this cross in the sky was a mental projection created by the unconscious minds of the believers who saw it. This is not to say that it was some kind of collective hallucination. Let's grant the phenomenon's physicality for a moment. Ok, well perhaps this cross was willed into existence by the people who observed it. Perhaps our minds are capable of manipulating reality, especially during times of emotional duress or when there is some sort of expectation for a "miracle" to occur. Sound implausible? Sure. But it's no more implausible than God.

In fact, my miracle theory fits the facts better. Aren't there miracle accounts in ALL religions? If a bunch of Hindus claim to see something corroborating their beliefs, and a bunch of Eastern Orthodox Christians claim to see something corroborating their beliefs, and similar experiences happen to Catholics and Protestants and Jews, then we are presented with a quandary, aren't we? This must mean that all religions are valid. But how can contradictory religions all have the same validity? Perhaps no religion has any validity, and all of these "miracles" are just distortions of reality being carried out by the unconscious forces of our own minds.

Once again, this sounds implausible, and I'm certainly not throwing this out there as a theory to be taken seriously. But what I'm suggesting is that it's biased to automatically assume that God is responsible for some given occurence even if we are going to grant the possibility of miracles.

Something else I'd like to point out is that this miracle report is pretty transparent as a polemical device since it occurred within the context of a religious controversy.

From my personal experience, I would argue you are right on the money.

Remember the "Virgin Mary in Conyers, GA" thang back in the 90s? I went down there one special day and witnessed people "seeing" her in the clouds all afternoon. Seriously.

People are sooooooo awesome!!!!!!

EDUCATION! EDUCATION! EDUCATION!