Archeological evidence?

platinum_trunks
Posts: 12
Joined: 2007-07-22
User is offlineOffline
Archeological evidence?

Sorry, if this is in the wrong spot, I couldn't really find a place to put this as there is no "history" section.

 

I originally had thought there was no archeological evidence for the bible, but after looking at a few sites I seem to see more and more of it piling up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_archaeology

 

Granted it's wikipedia, but there seems to be some legitness to it.

 

Can anyone give me a comment if this is true? Especially seeing the whole prefect pilate thing


AmericanIdle
Posts: 414
Joined: 2007-03-16
User is offlineOffline
The biblical writers based

The biblical writers based some of their stories on actual historical events and places.  It turns out Jerusalem is an actual city.. Who knew ?  There are also substantial facts of archaelogy that seriously refute the supposed infallible "word of god".  Babylon was a city.  That's a fact.  How does that support dragons, unicorns and the oft repeated (likely plagiarized) dying godman myth?  

For years archaeologists have been doing work on the city of Troy.  Will everyone finally have to face the facts that every word of/about Apollo and Aphrodite is true ?

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
George Orwell


Master Jedi Dan
Master Jedi Dan's picture
Posts: 289
Joined: 2007-05-30
User is offlineOffline
Quote: I originally had

Quote:

I originally had thought there was no archeological evidence for the bible, but after looking at a few sites I seem to see more and more of it piling up.

Actually, there is some.   I recently found that in an archeological expedition to what is supposed to be the city of Sodom (at least it's where the Bible says it should be), they found trinitite ( http://geology.about.com/library/bl/images/bltrinitite.htm ).  Trinitite is named after the Trinity site in the White Sands, New Mexico area, where they tested the first nuclear bombs during World War II.  Trinitite is formed from extreme heat (such as that from a nuclear bomb).  If this is legitimate, then this could prove that Sodom literally was destroyed by fire and brimstone.

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.


JeremiahSmith
Posts: 361
Joined: 2006-11-25
User is offlineOffline
Master Jedi Dan

Master Jedi Dan wrote:

Quote:

I originally had thought there was no archeological evidence for the bible, but after looking at a few sites I seem to see more and more of it piling up.

Actually, there is some. I recently found that in an archeological expedition to what is supposed to be the city of Sodom (at least it's where the Bible says it should be), they found trinitite ( http://geology.about.com/library/bl/images/bltrinitite.htm ). Trinitite is named after the Trinity site in the White Sands, New Mexico area, where they tested the first nuclear bombs during World War II. Trinitite is formed from extreme heat (such as that from a nuclear bomb). If this is legitimate, then this could prove that Sodom literally was destroyed by fire and brimstone.

It is a testament to the desire of Christians to clutch any scrap of extra-Biblical evidence for their claims, no matter how ridiculous, that the people who originated this claim can't tell the difference between a nuclear event and falling brimstone. Nuclear fireballs get incredibly hot, thousands and thousands of degrees, and expand up into the atmosphere, whereas sulfur doesn't get nearly that hot, nor does burning sulfur create the sort of air flow necessary to keep trinitite suspended in the air long enough to form. It's like that old claim that star Wormwood was really Chernobyl.

The discovery of a material that, until now, only existed after nuclear detonations being found at Sodom (whose location has never been ascertained anyway) would have made front page news. (Not to mention an international brouhaha after the revelation that some sort of nuclear event happened in the politically contentious area of the Dead Sea.)

Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.


Cpt_pineapple
atheist
Cpt_pineapple's picture
Posts: 5486
Joined: 2007-04-12
User is offlineOffline
JeremiahSmith

JeremiahSmith wrote:
Master Jedi Dan wrote:

Quote:

I originally had thought there was no archeological evidence for the bible, but after looking at a few sites I seem to see more and more of it piling up.

Actually, there is some. I recently found that in an archeological expedition to what is supposed to be the city of Sodom (at least it's where the Bible says it should be), they found trinitite ( http://geology.about.com/library/bl/images/bltrinitite.htm ). Trinitite is named after the Trinity site in the White Sands, New Mexico area, where they tested the first nuclear bombs during World War II. Trinitite is formed from extreme heat (such as that from a nuclear bomb). If this is legitimate, then this could prove that Sodom literally was destroyed by fire and brimstone.

It is a testament to the desire of Christians to clutch any scrap of extra-Biblical evidence for their claims, no matter how ridiculous, that the people who originated this claim can't tell the difference between a nuclear event and falling brimstone. Nuclear fireballs get incredibly hot, thousands and thousands of degrees, and expand up into the atmosphere, whereas sulfur doesn't get nearly that hot, nor does burning sulfur create the sort of air flow necessary to keep trinitite suspended in the air long enough to form. It's like that old claim that star Wormwood was really Chernobyl.

The discovery of a material that, until now, only existed after nuclear detonations being found at Sodom (whose location has never been ascertained anyway) would have made front page news. (Not to mention an international brouhaha after the revelation that some sort of nuclear event happened in the politically contentious area of the Dead Sea.)

 

They had nuclear bombs in ancient times? Awesome!

 


Master Jedi Dan
Master Jedi Dan's picture
Posts: 289
Joined: 2007-05-30
User is offlineOffline
Quote: The discovery of a

Quote:

The discovery of a material that, until now, only existed after nuclear detonations being found at Sodom (whose location has never been ascertained anyway) would have made front page news. (Not to mention an international brouhaha after the revelation that some sort of nuclear event happened in the politically contentious area of the Dead Sea.)

They didn't specifically say that it was trinitite, but that it had the same characteristics.  Why would the newspaper put out news like this?  Somehow I doubt they would, seeing it as a mistake or something along that line.

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.


JeremiahSmith
Posts: 361
Joined: 2006-11-25
User is offlineOffline
Master Jedi Dan wrote:

Master Jedi Dan wrote:
They didn't specifically say that it was trinitite, but that it had the same characteristics.

What characteristics, specifically? If anything really was found, there's no chance it resembled trinitite in any fashion other than "looks like melted glass".

And, given that the location of Sodom is still unknown, if it existed at all, the story is probably total crap. And I only say "probably" to be nice.

Quote:
Why would the newspaper put out news like this? Somehow I doubt they would, seeing it as a mistake or something along that line.

If something significantly resembling trinitite was found near the Dead Sea, it would be an indication of some sort of nuclear explosion. Potential evidence of a nuclear explosion in the Middle East -- especially from two thousand years ago -- is the sort of thing people want to hear about.

And, as a less political rationale, if Sodom were discovered, and hot melted glass was found there, it would definitely make the papers. The discovery of the location of the ruins of Sodom would get a mention on CNN or Fox News; the discovery that something big, bad, and possibly Biblical happened there would make headlines.

Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.


Randalllord
Rational VIP!
Randalllord's picture
Posts: 690
Joined: 2006-04-12
User is offlineOffline
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_Unearthed

 

This book, The Bible Unearthed, casts a great deal of doubt on many of the inspired stories of the Bible. For example, yes there was a city called Jerico and it walls were destroyed, but the archaeoligical evidence indicates that it was destroyed by an earthquake hundreds of years before Joshua could have blown his horn.

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca


Ahura Mazda
Ahura Mazda's picture
Posts: 32
Joined: 2007-07-22
User is offlineOffline
Master Jedi Dan

Master Jedi Dan wrote:

[They didn't specifically say that it was trinitite, but that it had the same characteristics.  Why would the newspaper put out news like this? 

Probably because most newpaper and popular media reporting of any archaeology is usually fairly hopeless and dumbed down to the point where it rarely tells you anything useful.  If an archaeologist is excavating a Fifth Century hillfort in Britain and mentions to the journalist that this is when Arthur may have been around, you can bet the headline will be "Archaeologists Discover Camelot!"

As it turns out, what these guys found was a pot sherd with some glazing on it.  Because they claim it was from a period before pots were glazed, they are assuming that this glaze was not intentional and is therefore associated with Yahweh smiting the wicked Sodomites.

The "archaeologist" involved - Dr Steven Collins - doesn't seem to have any actual qualifications in archaeology, but is the author of books entitled Championing the Faith and Christian Discipleship.  In a talk on the finds at the First Baptist Church in Albuquerque last year he said that material from the site showed other signs of burning, but only this pot sherd had this glaze on it.  As the report in the link above says:

"He is having a number of people, including New Mexico Tech scientists, examine the potsherd to determine what the glaze is. Material engineers at the site said it looks like Trinitite, the substance materials such as sand turn into when subjected to a nuclear blast. However, Collins said he isn't suggesting a nuclear blast hit the site. He doesn't know the cause, but suspects a comet strike or electrical event."

So we've got a bit of glazed pot.  That's it.  Hardly impressive evidence.

Impressive enough to Dr Collins, however.  He stated at the talk "If (Sodom is a myth), they're basically saying our Bible is wrong," and detailed how he wanted to keep the US from becoming a "post-Christian" culture like Europe.

A non-professional dabbler without appropriate qualifications who makes huge leaps of assumption from a single pot fragement and presents his findings in church meetings in New Mexico all sounds like kooky crap to me, not archaeology.

And all that aside - even if this goose did somehow prove that this is the site of Sodom and that it had been destroyed in some cataclysm, that simply gives an origin for the Biblical story.  It doesn't prove that a wrathful and murderous Yahweh did it.

The "Wise Old Atheist" says: They decided to invent a god and came up with one who looked like a peasant preacher from Galilee?! Were they on crack?


Master Jedi Dan
Master Jedi Dan's picture
Posts: 289
Joined: 2007-05-30
User is offlineOffline
Quote: The "archaeologist"

Quote:

The "archaeologist" involved - Dr Steven Collins - doesn't seem to have any actual qualifications in archaeology,

Actually, he does have major qualifications.  Here they are:

Steven Collins, Ph.D.

Dean, College of Archaeology & Biblical History

Director, The Tall el-Hammam Excavation Project, Jordan

TRINITY SOUTHWEST UNIVERSITY

10110 Constitution Ave. NE

Albuquerque, NM 87112, USA

www.trinitysouthwest.com

 

I live in Albuquerque, he came to our church a few months ago.  They have not finalized their discovery yet, but when they do it could be pretty big.  I may actually get a chance to go with them next year when they go there for their next dig at the site.  I want to see if this truly is real, or if it's nothing more than another wild claim.

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.


Christos
Theist
Christos's picture
Posts: 311
Joined: 2007-06-05
User is offlineOffline
Master Jedi Dan wrote: I

Master Jedi Dan wrote:

I live in Albuquerque, he came to our church a few months ago. They have not finalized their discovery yet, but when they do it could be pretty big. I may actually get a chance to go with them next year when they go there for their next dig at the site. I want to see if this truly is real, or if it's nothing more than another wild claim.

Wait, Jedi Master...are you a Christian or an atheist? 

"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)

"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)


Master Jedi Dan
Master Jedi Dan's picture
Posts: 289
Joined: 2007-05-30
User is offlineOffline
Christos wrote: Master

Christos wrote:
Master Jedi Dan wrote:

I live in Albuquerque, he came to our church a few months ago. They have not finalized their discovery yet, but when they do it could be pretty big. I may actually get a chance to go with them next year when they go there for their next dig at the site. I want to see if this truly is real, or if it's nothing more than another wild claim.

Wait, Jedi Master...are you a Christian or an atheist?

I'm an agnostic atheist.  I'm only 17 though, so I go to church every week because if I didn't go "that would just be soooo terrible" to my parents.  I challenge some of the pastors sometimes Eye-wink ... haven't gotten many answers though.  I also occasionally put up theist-like stuff here because I want to see what the people here have to say about it.

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.


JeremiahSmith
Posts: 361
Joined: 2006-11-25
User is offlineOffline
Quote: However, Collins

Quote:
However, Collins said he isn't suggesting a nuclear blast hit the site. He doesn't know the cause, but suspects a comet strike or electrical event.

 Now that's parsimony, fellas!

Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.


Ahura Mazda
Ahura Mazda's picture
Posts: 32
Joined: 2007-07-22
User is offlineOffline
Master Jedi Dan

Master Jedi Dan wrote:

Actually, he does have major qualifications.  Here they are:

Steven Collins, Ph.D.

Dean, College of Archaeology & Biblical History

Director, The Tall el-Hammam Excavation Project, Jordan

TRINITY SOUTHWEST UNIVERSITY

10110 Constitution Ave. NE

Albuquerque, NM 87112, USA

www.trinitysouthwest.com

I did check their website before I posted and he certainly does seem to have a PhD in something, but what I didn't see there was any indication of qualifications in archaeology.  If you have any evidence that he does, then I'll withdraw my comment about him being unqualified, but years of examining the claims of these "Biblical archaeologists" has made me very wary of their claims to expertise.  They usually have qualifications from unaccredited fundie degree mills or qualifications in fields like engineering or hydrology which are fine, except irrelevant to archaeology.

Quote:
I live in Albuquerque, he came to our church a few months ago.  They have not finalized their discovery yet, but when they do it could be pretty big.  I may actually get a chance to go with them next year when they go there for their next dig at the site.  I want to see if this truly is real, or if it's nothing more than another wild claim.

If they have found a Bronze Age city at the site then that's great.  Even if they want to believe its Sodom, that's also fine.  This still doesn't "prove the Bible" because archaeology can't turn up evidence of the supernatural.  It wouldn't surprise me at all if there was a real city and a real catastrophe which led to the story of the Cities of the Plain we find in Genesis.  That doesn't mean I should believe in this "Yahweh" person, who sounds like a murderous psychopath anyway.

The "Wise Old Atheist" says: They decided to invent a god and came up with one who looked like a peasant preacher from Galilee?! Were they on crack?


eccles
eccles's picture
Posts: 12
Joined: 2007-09-19
User is offlineOffline
WHACKO ARCHAEOLOGY

A classical example of whacko archaeology was Ron Wyatt trying to find "Noahs' Ark". BTW what would happen to that Ark of there were woodpeckers on it?

The oft quoted book of the Buybull is Exodus. Archaeologists have been digging in the Sinai desert since the 1920's and found nothing. So how come 2 million people wandered there for 40 years and left nothing? There is also the matter of 2 million people (605,000 men plus women and children {quote Exodus}). The total population of Egypt at that time was only about 2 million. Then there is another example of mis-translation as in the "Virgin Mary" Virgin being a mis-translation of the Hebrew word "almah" meaning "young woman". The Hebrews did not cross the Red Sea, it was the "Sea of Reeds", and that was a shallow body of water that experienced low tides making a dry crossing possible.

 

Eccles


Master Jedi Dan
Master Jedi Dan's picture
Posts: 289
Joined: 2007-05-30
User is offlineOffline
Quote: The oft quoted book

Quote:

The oft quoted book of the Buybull is Exodus. Archaeologists have been digging in the Sinai desert since the 1920's and found nothing. So how come 2 million people wandered there for 40 years and left nothing?

What the hell do you think they would leave?  Footprints?  Duh there's no evidence, if a group of people wanders around for 40 years they aren't going to really leave evidence.   If a group of people settles in an area, then yes, they would leave evidence of a settlement.  But if you're going to wander around for that long, you're not going to find much of anything thousands of years after it happened.  I'm not defending the Bible here, but this is one of the most pathetic arguments from people trying to disprove the Bible's historical accuracy.

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.


Mike from Canada
Mike from Canada's picture
Posts: 19
Joined: 2007-09-26
User is offlineOffline
Master Jedi Dan

Master Jedi Dan wrote:

Quote:

The oft quoted book of the Buybull is Exodus. Archaeologists have been digging in the Sinai desert since the 1920's and found nothing. So how come 2 million people wandered there for 40 years and left nothing?

What the hell do you think they would leave? Footprints? Duh there's no evidence, if a group of people wanders around for 40 years they aren't going to really leave evidence. If a group of people settles in an area, then yes, they would leave evidence of a settlement. But if you're going to wander around for that long, you're not going to find much of anything thousands of years after it happened. I'm not defending the Bible here, but this is one of the most pathetic arguments from people trying to disprove the Bible's historical accuracy.

 

 

You put 2 million people anywhere for even a day and there will be remains. Some might not last but given 40 years worth of days there will be something. They had to have some mobile shelter to sleep in requiring daily construction and deconstruction, they ate and therefore defecated. 2 million people will leave a large steaming pile every day something will get buried under it and preserved.

Gordon H. Clark wrote:
To [Logical Positivists], speaking of God is like saying that the typewriter is the bluish-green sound of the square root of minus one.

This quote is full of win.


formerthings
Theist
formerthings's picture
Posts: 2
Joined: 2008-01-13
User is offlineOffline
We have more evidence than

{MOD EDIT: Don't spam your site.}


daedalus
daedalus's picture
Posts: 260
Joined: 2007-05-22
User is offlineOffline
Ahura Mazda wrote: Master

Ahura Mazda wrote:
Master Jedi Dan wrote:

Actually, he does have major qualifications. Here they are:

Steven Collins, Ph.D.

Dean, College of Archaeology & Biblical History

Director, The Tall el-Hammam Excavation Project, Jordan

TRINITY SOUTHWEST UNIVERSITY

10110 Constitution Ave. NE

Albuquerque, NM 87112, USA

www.trinitysouthwest.com

I did check their website before I posted and he certainly does seem to have a PhD in something, but what I didn't see there was any indication of qualifications in archaeology. If you have any evidence that he does, then I'll withdraw my comment about him being unqualified, but years of examining the claims of these "Biblical archaeologists" has made me very wary of their claims to expertise. They usually have qualifications from unaccredited fundie degree mills or qualifications in fields like engineering or hydrology which are fine, except irrelevant to archaeology.

Quote:
I live in Albuquerque, he came to our church a few months ago. They have not finalized their discovery yet, but when they do it could be pretty big. I may actually get a chance to go with them next year when they go there for their next dig at the site. I want to see if this truly is real, or if it's nothing more than another wild claim.

If they have found a Bronze Age city at the site then that's great. Even if they want to believe its Sodom, that's also fine. This still doesn't "prove the Bible" because archaeology can't turn up evidence of the supernatural. It wouldn't surprise me at all if there was a real city and a real catastrophe which led to the story of the Cities of the Plain we find in Genesis. That doesn't mean I should believe in this "Yahweh" person, who sounds like a murderous psychopath anyway.

 

From their FAQ section:

Quote:
Is TSU accredited?
Trinity Southwest University strives to maintain excellent academic standards and procedures as generally established within the larger academic community. TSU operates as an exempt religious institution, as provided by the New Mexico Commission on Higher Education. TSU reports to the Commission annually for the retention of that status, as required by law.

TSU is approved by the Association of Christian Schools International (ACSI) as a provider of continuing education credits in the areas of Biblical Studies, Theology, and Apologetics, and by the New Mexico Department of Vocational Rehabilitation.

At this time, TSU has chosen to remain non-aligned with respect to accreditation. The requirements of accrediting agencies apply best to a traditional university, whereas our programs are flexible and non-traditional. One must understand that throughout the history of our country - up to and including the present - accreditation by self-appointed or governmentally-appointed agencies has always been optional for educational institutions. Whereas the concept of accreditation is intended to be a safeguard for quality education, the fact remains that accrediting requirements are most often compatible with traditional education, and do not acknowledge the flexible, non-traditional nature of TSU.

Furthermore, it is clear that accreditation does not guarantee the quality of education related to the learning process as a whole. There are excellent accredited and non-accredited schools, and there are accredited schools of poor quality.

The recognition of these facts has led most colleges, universities and seminaries to accept credits and degrees from non-accredited institutions on a case-by-case basis (sometimes up to a certain percentage of their admissions as allowed by their accrediting associations).

We are always ready to assist our students who wish to pursue transfer of their TSU credits and/or degrees to other institutions.

 

That's a lot of words just to say "no".

I smell a rat. Plus, when has ANY claim of the discovery of a Biblical miracle ever panned out? Never.  In 2000 years they haven't found anything, but there are people still opening colleges (and taking peoples money) to keep the dream alive.

Meh. Let people do what they want, but its sad. It's the same thing as people taking money for magnets, crystals and miracle cures and tonics.  Of course, its a great business opportunity.

 

Does anyone know the number of atheists running religiously themed businesses/churches/colleges/etc.?  I bet its higher than people realize.

Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Isaac Asimov