HELLO. I represent the 'Christos Mythos'. Please read

Christ Myth
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HELLO. I represent the 'Christos Mythos'. Please read

My mission is to prove that Christ is a myth and to explain the origins of the myth of Christ.

My website is the culmination of my lifelong fascination with ancient history, ancient religions, mythology and the occult.

 

http://www.christos-mythos.com/

http://www.myspace.com/christmyth

 

I have created a film, in which the "Jesus Mythicist" thesis is explored, entitled "A Study on the History of the Dying and Resurrecting God" . This can be found in my Blog (direct link: Christ Myth

 

I've posted this video in the "Jesus Mythicist Campaign" Forum in hopes that it would spark discussion and because I believed that was the proper place to post it, however, I've noticed that almost no one enters that forum, so I decided to post here.

 

 

{link shortened}


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video: History of the Dying and Resurrecting God

It can also be found on YouTube.
part one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EYm8lj-9zw
part two: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HveJ5UB4o9E


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Please do not repost

Please do not repost identical information as that causes unnecesary work for the mods.

A thread can be moved if necessary, but you posted it in the correct forum originally and I will move it back, combined with the other post.

Many people use the "recent posts" feature instead of entering particular forums.  If you wish to keep your thread at the top of that list, you may "bump" your thread. 

 

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Thank's Susan!  And welcome

Thank's Susan!  And welcome to the board Christ Myth.


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Christ Myth please answer a

Christ Myth please answer a couple of questions for me.

 1st - Why do you date Christ's birth to be on December 25th, when Chrsitians claim it is most likely that he was born sometime around March/April (or at least during spring/summer and not winter)? Also why do you ignore the fact that the Roman Catholic church chose this date because of the pagan celebrations that occured on Dec 25th and not because Jesus was born on that day?

2nd - Why do you ignore Passover as being the reason Jesus died during Easter? (As Christians believe) Would it not make more since that the Jewish writers of the New Testament would borrow the Hebrew event and not the Pagan event?

 


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Welcome to the forums.

Welcome to the forums. Smiling

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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Simple Theist -

Simple Theist -

 

1. There are several things I left out to make the video as short as possible. I do make mention of this on my website in the Holy Days>Christmas> section:

In order to make it easier for the Romans to convert to Christianity without missing out on their festivities, Pope Julius I ordered that the birth of Christ be celebrated on December 25th. The date of Christmas was based on the date of Good Friday, the day Jesus died. Since the date of Jesus' death was believed to be March 25, the date of his birth would have been nine months after the date of Good Friday: December 25 (a rebirth after his death in March). Since the exact date of Good Friday is never given in the gospels, there were differing opinions on what day it should be celebrated. Some early Christians believed Good Friday should have been celebrated on April 6th. Nine months later is January 6th (when Christmas is celebrated in many Eastern countries). It is the twelve days between these two dates (Dec. 25 and Jan. 6) that are referred to as "the twelve days of Christmas"

and later:

"Before Pope Julian II established Christmas to be celebrated on the 25th of December in 345 AD, Christ's birth had traditionally been celebrated on March 25th, during the time of the Vernal Equinox (Eastertide). The 25th is 4 days after March 21st (the exact day of the Equinox). The 25th is the date of "the annunciation" to mary that she would be carrying the child of God."

 

2. The legend states that Christ's "death" was "chosen" to coincide with the passing over of the sacrificial lambs of the Pesach season. Since one of Christ's many symbols is the lamb, this date was obviously a good choice for his legendary crucifixion. There are several other reasons why this time period was chosen, however. Including those that are mentioned in the video.


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I apologize Susan.  I'll

I apologize Susan.

 I'll bump stuff from now on Sticking out tongue


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 Christ Myth, I'll debate

 Christ Myth, I'll debate you here and now. Tell me why you deny Jesus existed? Didn't you know that the vast majority of Jesus historians affirm He was crucified? He could not have been crucified if he never existed.

The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur


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Appeal to popularity.

Appeal to popularity.

Proud Canadian, Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.


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 So, its ok for

 So, its ok for evolutionists to appeal to popularity, but we can't when it comes to Jesus research? That's not fair.

The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur


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Apotheon wrote:  So, its

Apotheon wrote:
 So, its ok for evolutionists to appeal to popularity, but we can't when it comes to Jesus research? That's not fair.

 

Apotheon:

Let him disbelieve the existence of Jesus Christ. He's entitled to his opinion.

It's fashionable now for hard-core atheists to assume this position.

Seriously, does ANYBODY with more than 2 functioning brain cells actually believe that this guy - or one of the other founders of this site - Rook Hawkins - is actually going to come up with conclusive, "beyond a shadow of a doubt' , hard evidence 2,000 years after the fact that Jesus was a mythical figure.

These fellows have the EXACT same "thing" that you and i have - they have an opinion..!

Nothing more - nothing less..!!

 

 


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Quote: It's fashionable now

Quote:
It's fashionable now for hard-core atheists to assume this position.

 

I'm not an atheist.

 

I agree with Broncosfan that these are opinions. It's unfortunate that there's no evidence to show that he actually existed, as that would bring something definitive to the debate. If there was some evidence for his actual existence, there would be no need for opinions on the matter. We would all know the truth.

 Before any of you go making any assumptions about me,  I wouldn't care if Jesus DID exist. If there were one shred of (real) evidence proving his existence, I would take it for what it was. There's no point in denying the truth.

 

 


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Quote: The more I study

Quote:
The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur

 I agree with Mr. pasteur, by the way. I feel the same.


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 Anyone who has studied

 Anyone who has studied seriously the historical Jesus subject, would never claim there is no evidence for Jesus. You cannot possibly be serious. I can quote scholar after scholar on the evidence topic alone. Yale Historian, Edwin Yamauchi stated that there is more evidence for Jesus, then for the founder of any other religion.

Evidence:

The New Testament, which is corroberated by over 5,000 Greek manuscripts alone. Over 24,000 all together. In terms of classical antiquity, no one even comes close to this in terms of manuscript evidence.

Jesus tomb is located in Jerusalem. While no one can really prove that any ancient tomb is real, there is a strong collective cultural memory that it is his tomb.

We have the nails and parts of the cross that were handed down and preserved. I would also argue there is a strong case for the Shroud of Turin.

We have Jewish references: Talmud, Josephus, etc.

We have Pagan references

Gnostic references

Roman references

We have archaeological evidence for the places described in the New Testament

We have evidence that Jesus' apostles existed.

We have the evidence of all the lives Jesus has changed throughout history, and the strong impact He has made on human history. If anyone ever existed, it was Jesus.

We have the existance of the Christian religion and Church. All religions had historical founders. There is no reason to assume Christianity didn't.

Jesus birth dated the Calendar of the world. We are currently in the year of our Lord (Anno Domini) 2007

I grant that there could have been more contemporary evidence, but the question is: should there have been? Most ancient biographers only wrote about political and official figures. Not self-proclaimed "Messiah"s who suffered execution.

The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur


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 I forgot to mention the

 I forgot to mention the Apostolic Fathers. Some of them knew the apostles personally.


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Quote: Anyone who has

Quote:
Anyone who has studied seriously the historical Jesus subject...

 

I have.

 

Quote:
would never claim there is no evidence for Jesus.

 

I do.

 

Quote:
You cannot possibly be serious.

 

I am. 


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Christ Myth, show your proof

Christ Myth, show your proof that Jesus never existed, and explain how someone managed to fake the New Testament and the early church fathers that knew the apostles directly. Eplain how Christianity, a Jewish sect, started if a Jewish Rabbi named Jesus didn't start it. WHy did any Jew ever convert to Christianity? If people made up the whole thing, why did they also die proclaiming it as truth? Why not recant their beliefs, or make them more paganized so Rome wouldn't kill them? Why didn't they make a stronger case for Jesus being the messiah, like fullfilling prophecies that all Jews claim reference the messiah instead of the ones they made?


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[heavy Brooklyn accent] Oy

[heavy Brooklyn accent]

Oy vey!

[/heavy Brooklyn accent]

I kinda like where this thread is going, so I'll put my 2 cents in. First-

Christ Myth wrote:
It's unfortunate that there's no evidence to show that he (Jesus) actually existed

Hence my belief that he doesn't exist. But I don't count this as proof that Jesus didn't exist.

Christ Myth wrote:
If there was some evidence for his actual existence, there would be no need for opinions on the matter. We would all know the truth.... If there were one shred of (real) evidence proving his existence, I would take it for what it was. There's no point in denying the truth

I feel the same way. If Jesus, Allah, Zeus, Thor, Xenu or any other god were proven to exist,( with roughly the same burden of proof I'd need if on a jury in any criminal case - "beyond a REASONABLE doubt" ) I would believe that the god or gods proven to exist actually do exist. Whether or not I actually worship said god(s) is a different story.

Good night, funny man, and thanks for the laughter.


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Broncosfan wrote: Apotheon

Broncosfan wrote:
Apotheon wrote:
 So, its ok for evolutionists to appeal to popularity, but we can't when it comes to Jesus research? That's not fair.

Apotheon:

Let him disbelieve the existence of Jesus Christ. He's entitled to his opinion.

Yes, he's entitled to his opinion. We all are.

Broncosfan wrote:

It's fashionable now for hard-core atheists to assume this position.

Atheists MANIFESTLY assume this position, not because it is "fashionable" ('lol look at me jeezus dont exist!!!11!!!11!one!&#39Eye-wink); but because atheists are people "without theism", without any belief that Yahweh, Jesus, Allah, Thor, Zeus et al exist.

Broncosfan wrote:

Seriously, does ANYBODY with more than 2 functioning brain cells actually believe that this guy - or one of the other founders of this site - Rook Hawkins - is actually going to come up with conclusive, "beyond a shadow of a doubt' , hard evidence 2,000 years after the fact that Jesus was a mythical figure.

These fellows have the EXACT same "thing" that you and i have - they have an opinion..!

Nothing more - nothing less..!!

You're asking for proof of non-existence. Prove that Russel's Teapot doesn't exist, and only then will you be in a position to seek proof of Jesus' non-existence.

Good night, funny man, and thanks for the laughter.


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    Atheists

 

 

Atheists MANIFESTLY assume this position, not because it is "fashionable" ('lol look at me jeezus dont exist!!!11!!!11!one!&#39Eye-wink); but because atheists are people "without theism", without any belief that Yahweh, Jesus, Allah, Thor, Zeus et al exist.

Broncosfan wrote:

 

Hell, why stop at Jesus though - let's say that Moses or David or Solomon or Pontious Pilate or Abraham didn't exist.

hey, how about the 12 disciples - let's call them imaginary too..!

You know something - I was NEVER a huge fan of Jesse James, the American outlaw. I liked Billy The Kid and Butch Cassidy / Sundance Kid.

 But I don't like Jesse James - so I'm going to pretend that he didn't exist.

 The photographs that supposedly are him ..?? Well, they're real, but they're not Jesse James - he didn't exist..!!

The stories by "eye witnesses" who supposedly knew him ..?? Eye witnesses have been notoriously wrong throughout history. They simply "created" a character named "Jesse James" who in the post civil war environment stood up to the train owners / the union army occupiers / etc. It gave people hope that they had a "hero" who could stand up to "THE MAN".

 And if I do abit of research, I can easily find some "historical" character whose "life" resembles Jesse James - fought for a losing army / became an outlaw / outcast / embrached by the common people as a "hero" for the cause / treacherously killed by a cowardly assassin / etc.  

As to the scholars who claimed he existed. 

Well, they're wrong. Voila - no Jesse James.

 

And I'' easily find a small percentage of hard cases who'll believe this nonsense and pr5ovide me with links to "credible" sources.

 


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 simple theist: It's

 simple theist:

It's impossible to prove the non-existence of something, first of all, so stop being silly. If Christ actually existed, the burden of proof is on the believers. 

 Why are you bringing up the idea that the New Testament is "fake"? It's obviously a real book. What's your point?

 

Quote:
Eplain how Christianity, a Jewish sect, started if a Jewish Rabbi named Jesus didn't start it.

Christianity is obviously a later incarnation of the ancient worship of Osiris. This is a very simple explanation, and the existence of an actual Christ is completely unnecessary.

 

Quote:
WHy did any Jew ever convert to Christianity?

Because they liked it.

 

Quote:
If people made up the whole thing, why did they also die proclaiming it as truth?

One of two reasons. Either A) they actually believed that Chrsit existed, or B) they knew that there was no actual living, breathing Christ, but they understood the eternal truths that the symbol of Christ represents (which I do not deny, by the way).

 

 


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Quote: Hell, why stop at

Quote:

Hell, why stop at Jesus though - let's say that Moses or David or Solomon or Pontious Pilate or Abraham didn't exist.

hey, how about the 12 disciples - let's call them imaginary too..!

"imaginary" is such a harsh word... Let's call them "legendary".

 


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Legendary, indeed.  Welcome

Legendary, indeed.  Welcome to the board, Mythos.


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Most of these things have

Most of these things have already been dealt with - those sources are all from way after Jesus supposedly lived, The main Josephus writing is almost certainly a forgery, and using the BuyBull is circular logic. And the shroud of Turin has been proven a mideval forgery.

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 Christ Myth, your

 Christ Myth, your shifting the burden of proof. History accepts the existance of Christ. Since you are claiming He didn't exist, the burden of proof is on you. As for the "pagan parallel" theory (Osirus), that has been thoroughly debunked.  Your theory against Christ is not based on historical methodology, but on bias. If there was no supernaturalism invloved in Jesus of Nazareth, you would have no problem with his existance.

 

Rook, you are a fraud. I offered to debate you in chat, and I have offered to debate you in forum. You said in chat that I didn't know what a Satanist was. How could you possibly know this since you don't know anything about me? I don't believe the "Rational" Responders are honest people. I believe you have an agenda to destroy the truth. But your going to fail. The truth has crushed every opposition against it for two milleniums. You have NO idea what you are up against. Christ is Risen! He is alive. And He will smash you like He has all the other enemies of truth. You better think twice about what you are doing and who you are up against.

The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur


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MattShizzle wrote: Most of

MattShizzle wrote:
Most of these things have already been dealt with - those sources are all from way after Jesus supposedly lived, The main Josephus writing is almost certainly a forgery, and using the BuyBull is circular logic. And the shroud of Turin has been proven a mideval forgery.

 

They say ignorance is bliss. First of all, the oldest version of Josephus is in Aramaic and leading Josephus scholars have established the Jesus reference to be authentic. It is no longer disputed. Second, the Shroud of Turn has not been debunked at all. Why don't you people do you own independent research instead of relying so much on atheist propaganda. I can give you multiple resources showing that you people just have no idea what you are talking about. Think for yourself. Don't let other people think for you. The atheist agenda is is commited to stopping human thought and wonder. They want to poison your mind and control you.

The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur


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Apotheon wrote: Christ

Apotheon wrote:
Christ Myth, your shifting the burden of proof. History accepts the existance of Christ. Since you are claiming He didn't exist, the burden of proof is on you. As for the "pagan parallel" theory (Osirus), that has been thoroughly debunked. Your theory against Christ is not based on historical methodology, but on bias. If there was no supernaturalism invloved in Jesus of Nazareth, you would have no problem with his existance.

It would only be shifting the burden of proof if you had offered evidence and he ignored it and said ‘now prove that my disbelief is unwarranted’.

But that isn’t what has happened. Most of the “evidence” that you’ve cited is not specific enough to even address (just saying pagan references for example doesn’t tell us anything), and the things that are specific are not actually evidence that he existed and they are certainly not evidence that he had any kind of magic powers (the existence of a book is not itself evidence that the contents are accurate).

So the default position should be disbelief. The burden of proof is still in the right place; on you

 

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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It's not just atheists that

It's not just atheists that doubt the shroud of Turin is anything but a fraud. Here's the article:

http://skepdic.com/shroud.html

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 That website is replete

 That website is replete with lies and disinformation. Its refuted here: www.shroud.com

The evidence for Jesus is accepted by historians. It is only rejected by a small minority of atheists because they are desperate to poke holes in anything that has to do with God. Don't take my word for it. Look up Jesus in any standard encyclopedia.

 

As I said before, the opposition has always been crushed. Madalyn O'Hair founded American Atheists and was responsible for taking prayer out of school. Her body was found mutilated in dozens of pieces. She was in such bad shape, they had to use dental records to identify her. Remember that atheist on the news who was trying to take "one nation under God" out of the Pledge of Allegiance? He commited suicide. Of course we never heard about this on the news. Those are just recent examples. Christianity has stood the test of time because it is a Divine institution. Jesus promissed that the gates of Hell will never prevail over His Church (Matt.16:18-19).

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 That website is replete

 That website is replete with lies and disinformation. Its refuted here: www.shroud.com

The evidence for Jesus is accepted by historians. It is only rejected by a small minority of atheists because they are desperate to poke holes in anything that has to do with God. Don't take my word for it. Look up Jesus in any standard encyclopedia.

 

As I said before, the opposition has always been crushed. Madalyn O'Hair founded American Atheists and was responsible for taking prayer out of school. Her body was found mutilated in dozens of pieces. She was in such bad shape, they had to use dental records to identify her. Remember that atheist on the news who was trying to take "one nation under God" out of the Pledge of Allegiance? He commited suicide. Of course we never heard about this on the news. Those are just recent examples. Christianity has stood the test of time because it is a Divine institution. Jesus promissed that the gates of Hell will never prevail over His Church (Matt.16:18-19).

The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur


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OK you are insane. Michael

OK you are insane. Michael Newdow did not commit suicide. And quoting the BuyBull, a book chock full of bullshit, at us helps your case not one bit.

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 A few months ago I looked

 A few months ago I looked on Wikipedia under "Famous People who Commited Suicide," and I could swear he was listed. I looked again and it appears to have been removed. I know Wiki is not always accurate. Regardless, according to The American Journal of Psychiatry, religious suicides are significantly lower then atheist suicides.

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Only because the religious

Only because the religious are afraid of going to hell for suicide. Wikipedia is all but useless. I have a BS in Psychology myself.

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Apotheon wrote: As I said

Apotheon wrote:
As I said before, the opposition has always been crushed. Madalyn O'Hair founded American Atheists and was responsible for taking prayer out of school. Her body was found mutilated in dozens of pieces. She was in such bad shape, they had to use dental records to identify her. Remember that atheist on the news who was trying to take "one nation under God" out of the Pledge of Allegiance? He commited suicide. Of course we never heard about this on the news. Those are just recent examples. Christianity has stood the test of time because it is a Divine institution. Jesus promissed that the gates of Hell will never prevail over His Church (Matt.16:18-19).

Hinduism has stood the test of time for longer, does that mean it's even more divine?

The less faster you pedal, the more slower you go.


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Daniel wrote: Apotheon

Daniel wrote:

Apotheon wrote:
As I said before, the opposition has always been crushed. Madalyn O'Hair founded American Atheists and was responsible for taking prayer out of school. Her body was found mutilated in dozens of pieces. She was in such bad shape, they had to use dental records to identify her. Remember that atheist on the news who was trying to take "one nation under God" out of the Pledge of Allegiance? He commited suicide. Of course we never heard about this on the news. Those are just recent examples. Christianity has stood the test of time because it is a Divine institution. Jesus promissed that the gates of Hell will never prevail over His Church (Matt.16:18-19).

Hinduism has stood the test of time for longer, does that mean it's even more divine?

so has buddhism and Zoroastrianism


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How are you going to prove

How are you going to prove that a man who may or may not have lived over 2,000 years ago is a myth..??

How are you going to PROVE it (as opposed to expressing your opinion) - by referring to other books / websites that merely offer the SAME opinions that other people have voiced over the years.

Why don't we put this issue to bed once and for all..!!

You have an opinion - you have the EXACT same thing that me and billions of other people on this planet have - OPINIONS..!!

 You - along with Rook Hawkins can create 1,000 websites and create a wish list of 1,000,000 books and you'll be no closer to PROVING your position. 

 

 


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AGAIN: The burden of proof

AGAIN:

The burden of proof is always on the person that says something exists. Until there is proof, the default logical position is that it does not.

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MattShizzle

MattShizzle wrote:

AGAIN:

The burden of proof is always on the person that says something exists. Until there is proof, the default logical position is that it does not.

I have no idea if Jesus of Nazareth existed or not - I believe that he did, but I don't know it for sure. And as far as the "burden of proof" is concerned, i don't owe you or anybody else squat..! 

 I choose to believe - you choose not to - congratulations, we can agree to disagree.  I rarely - if ever - dress up my opinions as facts.

The ONLY thing that bothers me is when the likes of this poster or Rook Hawkins, for example, try to present opinions as facts. 

Personally, I find it very amusing that he has a wish list of books that run into the thousands of dollars and somehow IF he manages to obtain these books and he's able to do his research, he's going to find THE ANSWER.

Right - in the year 2007, he's going to PROVE beyond all doubt that a man didn't exist in the year 20 AD or 30 AD or whatever. Or the author of this post is going to prove it.

 Personally, I don't see a whole lot of difference between a fundamentalist, who insists that evolution is a myth or that the world can't be older than 6,000 years despite the evidence and the atheist, who insists that Christ is a myth, despite the fact the overwhelming majority of historicans / scholars BELIEVE that he was a living, breathing person.

As far as I'm concerned, these people are cut from the EXACT same cloth - just opposite sides of the SAME coin..!!


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People always want to agree

People always want to agree to disagree when they have nothing to support their claims. I agree to no such thing. Doesn't the fantastic nature of the story give you a hint that at the very least there is a great deal of embellishment going on here? Maybe perseus actually lived too, even if he did do you think it is at all possible that he rode a flying horse and cut off a gorgon's head?

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


Vastet
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Apotheon wrote:  So, its

Apotheon wrote:
 So, its ok for evolutionists to appeal to popularity, but we can't when it comes to Jesus research? That's not fair.

Evolution"ists" as you put it do not appeal to popularity, they appeal to evidence. Evidence which is available to all.

Broncosfan wrote:
I have no idea if Jesus of Nazareth existed or not - I believe that he did, but I don't know it for sure. And as far as the "burden of proof" is concerned, i don't owe you or anybody else squat..!

Then you have absolutely no right whatsoever to dispute the claims of jesus mythicists, and you're wasting your time and everyone elses by posting in the first place.

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 Buddhism, Zoroastrianism

 Buddhism, Zoroastrianism and Hinduism were not illegal for the first four centuries of their existance. Christians were killed by the thousands during this time. The Church overcame the persecutions of the emperers and every conceivable form of persecution and animosity over the centuries. Get aquainted with Church history. The fact that the Church exists today 2,000 years after Jesus made the promise of His Divine protection in Matthew 16, is indication that the words are authentic. Even today no one is attacking those systems. The focus is only on Christianity because the devil has always hated the truth. But its been a lost cause from the beginning.

The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur


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Apotheon wrote:  Buddhism,

Apotheon wrote:
 Buddhism, Zoroastrianism and Hinduism were not illegal for the first four centuries of their existance. Christians were killed by the thousands during this time.

Which lends them even more credibility than christianity. More so than just being older does.

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Apotheon wrote:

Apotheon wrote:
The focus is only on Christianity because the devil has always hated the truth. But its been a lost cause from the beginning.

You mean this guy?

 

I really should not have to explain these things to an adult. If you think there is a devil, or a god, or some leprechauns with good luck charms and cereal with little bits of marshmallows in it then show some evidence that these things exist. Otherwise you will get laughed out of here and you should because it sounds stupid.

If you are afraid to die and you want to cling to these infantile beliefs then fine. But at least take your toy and play in the corner like a good little boy. This is big people time.

There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft


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Christ Myth wrote: simple

Christ Myth wrote:

simple theist:

It's impossible to prove the non-existence of something, first of all, so stop being silly. If Christ actually existed, the burden of proof is on the believers.

Why are you bringing up the idea that the New Testament is "fake"? It's obviously a real book. What's your point?

Quote:
Eplain how Christianity, a Jewish sect, started if a Jewish Rabbi named Jesus didn't start it.

Christianity is obviously a later incarnation of the ancient worship of Osiris. This is a very simple explanation, and the existence of an actual Christ is completely unnecessary.

Quote:
WHy did any Jew ever convert to Christianity?

Because they liked it.

Quote:
If people made up the whole thing, why did they also die proclaiming it as truth?

One of two reasons. Either A) they actually believed that Chrsit existed, or B) they knew that there was no actual living, breathing Christ, but they understood the eternal truths that the symbol of Christ represents (which I do not deny, by the way).

 

Isn't it a little irrational to make a claim you can't prove? There is much evidence for Jesus being real, your just ignoring all of it. First Christianity is not a later incarnation of Osiris, you have no proof of this, only your speculation.


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Vastet wrote: Apotheon

Vastet wrote:
Apotheon wrote:
 Buddhism, Zoroastrianism and Hinduism were not illegal for the first four centuries of their existance. Christians were killed by the thousands during this time.
Which lends them even more credibility than christianity. More so than just being older does.

Interesting viewpoint.  Please explain how early persectuion by others renders Christianity less valid than religions which were not so oppressed.

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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totus_tuus wrote: Vastet

totus_tuus wrote:

Vastet wrote:
Apotheon wrote:
 Buddhism, Zoroastrianism and Hinduism were not illegal for the first four centuries of their existance. Christians were killed by the thousands during this time.
Which lends them even more credibility than christianity. More so than just being older does.

Interesting viewpoint.  Please explain how early persectuion by others renders Christianity less valid than religions which were not so oppressed.

I sure stepped in it this time.

In and of itself it does not suggest anything regarding validity, for or against. But in my view, certain tenets and teachings of christianity have always been found as immoral to some. Tenets that to my knowledge, the religions raised as comparison(which was the foundation of my reply) do not share. Such as permanent punishment, punishment not fitting a crime, mass murder of societies. At best being presented as good. Or at worst, the fault of those who have fallen. There is good reason for a person of no faith or a religious person of a different faith to reject the idea of eternal punishment or simply death for something as benign as cussing or having multiple lovers. And yet, christianity claims to be the ultimate source of morality. The only source of morality. As Bush has said many times, you're either with us or against us. Chrisitanity fueled it's own opposition by opposing it's opposition. This is quite obviously a controversy in the making, no matter what time you are in. Yet the religion also claims that it is the foundation of the species. That without the christian god, life would not exist, let alone human life. Yet this knowledge was denied to us until the rise of the christian religion. In the face of the religions claims, this seems contradictory. Surely a god that created all life, human life, and morality would not deny the knowledge of this creation to it's creation, yet expect it's creation to follow it anyway. The reasonable response of the day to claims of such magnitude that are not proven or are contrary to accepted beliefs is oppression.

I rather doubt I've answered you properly, but in all honesty I made that claim in the face of the implication that christianity being able to survive a few centuries of opposition lent it any credibility at all, which is rather ludicrous. If he had asked me to back up my claim, I'd have asked him to back up his previous claim first, and that frame of the discussion would have ended as he would be unable to do so.

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 Its interesting though

 Its interesting though that from the very beginning Christianity was almost crushed. The founder, Jesus Christ was crucified, and all the apostles, except John were murdered. Paul was beheaded in Rome, Peter was crucified upside down by his own choice because he felt unworthy to be crucified upright like the Lord, and James was stabbed by a sword. The next 4 centuries were marked with persecutions and torture. Yet, we still have it today. All those people died for something they believed was true and they believe they saw. Even modern scholars are agreed that the apostles believed Jesus rose from the dead. This doesn't prove he rose from the dead, it just shows they believed he did. I don't think Christianity would have made it out of the first century if he didn't rise from the dead because it would not have had the impetus necessary to generate such a movement.

 

I don't think we can really blame atheists for chosing not to believe. Afterall, all they've ever seen is hypocracy and sex scandals. And the fundamentalists cramming their version of Christianity down everyones throats. A little clarification here. There are some theological views that are not very commone today.

 

1. The ancient church theologian, Origen, believed the OT was largely allegorical. I believed he claimed that all the killing was symbolic of how we must kill sin in our lives.

 

2. He also believed in the final restoration of all things. The devil, demons, and even atheists would ultimately be restored to God and heaven. Other theologians believed this aswell.

 

3. Hell: Most Greek theologians believed that there is only one fire that proceeds from God. It nurtures the saints but consumes the sinner. Even in hell God's fire (love) is extended to sinners. Hell is simply suffering the regret that they made the wrong choice and decisions in life. But keep in mind, God is not the sadistic tyrant fundamentalists want to depict Him as. I left fundamentalism years ago because they're crackpots. And I think they've done more to hurt the Christian message then any good.

 

The Devil: Yes, he exists. We have reports of certain monks physically fighting with him and demons. People have even witnessed this. The monks come out with bruises and such.

 

I watched this youtube video of a girl denying God and the Holy Spirit. It was funny because when she talked about how her grandmother died, she crossed herself and said "God rest her soul."

I have a question for atheists: If you were on top of a burning building with no possible way to escape, would you pray to God to help? Afteral, it wouldn't hurt would it.

The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator -- Louis Pasteur


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Apotheon wrote: Its

Apotheon wrote:
Its interesting though that from the very beginning Christianity was almost crushed. The founder, Jesus Christ was crucified, and all the apostles, except John were murdered. Paul was beheaded in Rome, Peter was crucified upside down by his own choice because he felt unworthy to be crucified upright like the Lord, and James was stabbed by a sword. The next 4 centuries were marked with persecutions and torture. Yet, we still have it today.

This sort of logic suggests that the remains of witchcraft and shaman religions have the best claim. They've existed far longer than christianity, and have been persecuted to a far greater degree, yet they still exist, though have been massively fragmented. Christians may have been crucified, but witches(or those fingered as such) were burned. The only thing they don't have is the numbers, which is quite understandable when considering they were actively hunted for close to a thousand years.

Apotheon wrote:

I have a question for atheists: If you were on top of a burning building with no possible way to escape, would you pray to God to help? Afteral, it wouldn't hurt would it.

I don't think so. I've been in a few life threatening situations and was too busy trying to figure a way out to consider the notion. Perhaps if I had the time to deliberate, but more likely I'd just jump. A quick splatter is quite preferable to prolonged suffocation and burning.

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Apotheon wrote: I have a

Apotheon wrote:
I have a question for atheists: If you were on top of a burning building with no possible way to escape, would you pray to God to help? Afteral, it wouldn't hurt would it.

I dare you to ask that to the families of the 9/11 victims who did just that. I don't know what their religious views were, but the fact remains that they jumped 100 stories to avoid being roasted alive.

Good night, funny man, and thanks for the laughter.