Jesus Myth
Offline Rook, I have seen your video here about Jesus Myth, and I have also seen "The God who wasn't there."
Have you considered the proofs of Jesus offered by John Shelby Spong. He is a very liberal Christian (he doesn't believe in a physical resurrection.) He offers several basic proofs that Jesus could not have been a myth in Jesus for the Non-Religious.
The first one I will point out is that Jesus came from Nazareth. The region of Galilee, where Nazareth resides, was a small, dirty, insignificant town of no notable distinction. Even people in the rest of Galilee looked down upon it. Phillip even asks Nathaniel in John 1 if "anything good can come out of Nazareth?" The town of Nazareth is referenced 28 times in the gospels and Acts.
The very fact that a Bethlehem birth tradition grew up around Jesus is additional testimony to the embarrassment that his roots in Nazareth caused to early Christians. The first written gospel of Mark has no birth narrative. Only in Matt/Luke do we have a Jesus born in Bethlehem. In all likelihood, the Bethlehem birth story is a myth to cover for the likelihood that Jesus was born in the second-rate town of Nazareth.
If Jesus himself was a myth, why would the mythmakers create a myth that would embarrass them?
"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)
"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)
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That was no accident, but don't worry, I won't quote you.
BTW, were you aware that Price is executive board member of an organization called "The Jesus Project" whose main function is to systematically lay out the case for the non-existence of the historical Jesus?
A bit of friendly advice:
When someone confronts you with something you don't know anything about, it is best to just shut up instead of rushing off to Wikipedia for some cursory mention of whatever topic stumped you. I've already relayed my reluctance to speak to you from now on, at least until you show either honesty or an IQ above that of a lemur.
But perhaps the style with which I made my point of not wanting to talk to you made my point get lost on your deficient intellect, so let me say it simply and clearly now.
Shhhhhhhh!
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"Theology is that science which treats of the unknowable with infinitesimal exactitude." - Anatole France
skeptic of these relics. Has a scientific study of thes relics ever been done? I think its possible that the relics could be just an old nail, an old piece of wood, some poor persons foot, and some guys skull. I would like for you to mention how the church got these relics to begin with. Has the relics been studied and shown to have even came from the judean area?
Theist, the relics have been passed down in the Church from the beginning. We really don't care if people believe us or not. They have been successfully past down and protected. I find American's to be very arrogant. They assume that if they don't know about something then it must not exist. Keep in mind that America is a new country compared to other countries. There's alot that America and the west don't know about. As for scientific investigation, I don't know if the Church has permitted that on those particular relics. But I know that in Russia the Soviet scientists analyzed the incorrupt relics (body) of Saint Alexander of Svir, and they walked away with no explanation. The Catholic Church currently has over 260 incorrupt saints. I don't know how many the Orthodox have. There's a Russian Orthodox saint located in San Francisco (St. John Maximovitch) and he is incorrupt. He died in 1966. He was unearthed in 1994 and found completely preserved and many miracles happen from incorrupt saints. Incorruption is a sign of sanctity and holiness. There is also a thing called unholy incorruption. There have been cases of very evil people being incorrupt, but they are bloated, dark and the incorruption is only temporary. We have saints that have been incorrupt for centuries. Saints are not bloaded and they exude the smell of myrh or flowers. And they produce many miracles.
Quixie, you are in no position to speak. You actually referrenced G. Wells in support of your case, but you were unaware of the fact that he has abandoned the "Jesus "Myth" theory.
God exists or nothing exists --- Greg Bahnsen
Did Uncle AL forget his medication today?
There shall come in the last days scoffers....(2Pet.3:3).
You only prove the Bible to be true. As for the relics, don't take my word for it. Go see them yourself, and bring all the scientists you can muster. We have nothing to hide.
God exists or nothing exists --- Greg Bahnsen
So you're relying on an athiest to do something you can't?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
It amazes me how long you can talk and not give any substantive information.
You don't recognize one of the names so he must be fake? Do you really know everyone in the field or do you just pay attention to the ones you agree with?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
At this point it might be a good idea to come to an understanding of why this thread was moved to the trollville section.
He has been given the chance to make sense at least a dozen times, to no avail.
To continue talking to AL500 is sorta like trying to engage Borat in an intellectual discussion. It's very funny at first but ultimately a waste of time.
peace
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"Theology is that science which treats of the unknowable with infinitesimal exactitude." - Anatole France
Quixie, in case you haven't noticed I am the only one who supports my arguments with facts and sound logic. It doesn't take a genius such as myself to figure that out. I offered, and still offer ANYONE to debate me on the historical Jesus. To date, no one has taken me up on that challenge so what exactly is it that you are looking for from me?
"G.A. Wells has now abandoned the Christ-Myth hypothesis and has accepted the historicity of Jesus on the basis of the "Q" document" (The Jesus Myth, 1999).
God exists or nothing exists --- Greg Bahnsen
Humility, decorum, temperance, sobriety and accuracy, for starters.
Every "fact" that you put forth is invariably accompanied by paroxysms, mockery, pride, false accusations, paranoia, antagonistic baiting, vitriol and self righteousness, and . . . if I may say so . . . . the Bible you hold so dear contains a lot more warnings against self-righteousness than against heresy or "false belief".
I hope that answers your question.
p.s. The more you bring it up, the more I suspect that you are not familiar with Wells' more current position, which is that, though the origin of the Jesus myth may in fact be traced to a historically tangible person who was an itinerant preacher, that person is NOT congruent with what became the kerygmatic norm, the one portrayed as crucified and resurrected and ascended and yadda yadda. To simply say . . . . "he believes Jesus was historical now . . . see???" as you do is to miss a whole sea of nuance. But . .. it's not my desire to defend or refute Well's position. I don't care whether Jesus was a historical person or not.
If you remember correctly, the point of my initial post was to point out that you were wrong in your assertion that all writers on the mythic Jesus are atheists and ill-qualified charlatans. Wells was very qualified and so is Price and so is Ellegård (who, by the way, despite your accusation that I made him up, is a real historical person doing real academic work).
THAT was the point.
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"Theology is that science which treats of the unknowable with infinitesimal exactitude." - Anatole France
I know Robert Price is qualified. But I'm not sure he denies the historicity of Jesus. I think he only entertains the myth theory as a possible hypothesis. But as far as I can tell I don't think he buys it. But I could be wrong. I really don't know enough about him. As for the Jesus of history vs the Christ of faith, there are so many books and debates on this subject. Just tonight I was listening to Dr. Craig debate Dr. Crossan on this very subject. There are just too many problems Crossan's position. But you can make your own decision. I had some technical problems on this site, but there is a list of audio debates with Dr. Craig and one with Crossan.
http://www.apollos.ws/blog/william-lane-craig-debates.html
God exists or nothing exists --- Greg Bahnsen
AL, you are the only one who is NOT usingh sound logic and facts in your arguements. You are using your beliefs, which is not fact, as far as I'm concerned. Relics of the church are not proof: they're just objects. Woop dee doo. You are not a genius, and calling yourself one makes you seem very arrogant. If anyone denies that jesus existed, you go off on 'em with your worthless bible, and your useless relics. THOSE ARE NOT PROOF AND NEVER WILL BE. Come up with scientific proof, and I think people will take you more seriously.
VERITAS OMNIA VINCIT
Paranoia, I haven't even used the Bible to prove Jesus here. I haven't even tried to argue for him in this thread. And I am a genius. I don't care if it sounds arrogant or not.
God exists or nothing exists --- Greg Bahnsen
Bullshit.
Bullshit.
Bullshit.
And...... BULLSHIT!
I think you absolutely LOVE sounding arrogant, even if it is unfounded.
Christard500, you cannot be a genius if you believe in fairytales, which automatically puts your IQ below 20. I bet I could get your fellow Christians to say that you are NOT a genius. I'm not a genius. You're not a genius. If you were actually smart in any way shape or form, you would've realized long ago how irratioal and retarded your beliefs are. I have an idea: don't talk unless you have good arguement that isn't based on fairytales or lies. And since that will never, EVER happen, just shut the fuck up.
VERITAS OMNIA VINCIT
BGH, show where I used the Bible. Thanks.
And what's your scientific proof of that? Put up or shut up. I will remind you that the greatest minds in recorded history ( including most philosophers and scientists) were theists. Atheists are the minority. I have a personal theory that atheists don't use much of their brain and that they are not fully conscious. Trying to explain theism to an atheist is akin to explaining 4th dimensional truths to a 3 dimensional mind. You just can't understand because that part of your brain is simply not working.
God exists or nothing exists --- Greg Bahnsen
Ha ha ha ha ha!
Okay.
Here a quote from you on page 1 of this thread:
(edited for clarity)
Patently false.
A well-thought out theory, I'm sure, with plenty of neurological data and statistical analyis. It takes full use of the brain and total consciousness to believe in parlor trick-performing being for whom no historical evidence exists.
Absolutely right - given that there is no evidence for "4th dimensional truths", and there is plenty of hard evidence that human brains are 3-dimensional. At least they typically are. Enclosing your brain with the bible may in fact squash it into the 2nd dimension or worse.
Instead of dissembling with these worthless diatribes, how about staying on topic and debating the points presented? And by debating, I mean providing some actual analysis, and not simply dropping names, or claiming (without specifics or citation) that the "vast majority of scholars" agrees with you. Surely a "genius" can do better than hanging his arguments on blurbs from other sources -- or talking up the circus of severed appendages at some monastery.
On second thought, don't. Go find someone actually knowledgable enough to contribute here. You've offered nothing useful so far, don't see it happening now.
Take care, genius.
There are no theists on operating tables.
Yes, I did speak of 1Cor.15. But that was only after Rook completely distorted the Apostle Paul and 1Corinthains.
God exists or nothing exists --- Greg Bahnsen
Are you ever going to get around to mentioning the distortions? Do you even know what you think they are ?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Thanks for admitting this is true then.
Quit spewing bullshit and people will quit calling you on it.