A pope said Jesus a myth?

MattShizzle
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A pope said Jesus a myth?

I just read this last night! Holy shit!

"It has served us well, this myth of Christ." - Pope Leo X

So, since the Pope is supposed to be infallible, shouldn't that mean the Jesus mythicist position is the official doctrine of the Catholic church?

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totus_tuus
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I'd be careful with this

I'd be careful with this quote since it first appears in the work of John Bale, Acta Romanorum Pontificum (The Pageant of the Popes).  Bale was a student of Thomas Cranmer, and a favorite of Thomas Cromwell, both toadies of Henry VIII, who we all know had a well known axe to grind with Roman Catholic Church. 

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totus_tuus wrote: I'd be

totus_tuus wrote:
I'd be careful with this quote since it first appears in the work of John Bale, Acta Romanorum Pontificum (The Pageant of the Popes).  Bale was a student of Thomas Cranmer, and a favorite of Thomas Cromwell, both toadies of Henry VIII, who we all know had a well known axe to grind with Roman Catholic Church. 

 

Bale was a rabid anti-Catholic propagandist and The Pageant of the Popes was primitive propaganda of the most obvious kind.  No-one of any credibility believes Leo X said anything remotely like this and the only reasons it gets peddled as a genuine quote are (i) it's been quoted out of context for so long and most people can't be bothered checking sources or using their brains to work out if a quote is genuine and (ii) it suits certain people's agendas.

 

For example, just a few weeks ago Acharya S was being roasted over hot coals on the Internet Infidels forum for continuing to use this quote on one of her websites even though the fact that it's totally bogus has been explained to her several times.  It seems that particular Mythicist says "It has served us well, this myth of Leo X!"

When people don't let facts get in the way of their ideologically driven theories you can be pretty sure you're dealing with a fanatic. 

"Any fool can make history, but it takes a genius to write it."
Oscar Wilde


totus_tuus
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ebionite wrote:It seems

ebionite wrote:
It seems that particular Mythicist says "It has served us well, this myth of Leo X!"

When people don't let facts get in the way of their ideologically driven theories you can be pretty sure you're dealing with a fanatic. 

LOL!

"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II


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   what would jesus say ?

   what would jesus say ? OUCH ! Why have you forsaken me ...


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totus_tuus wrote: I'd be

totus_tuus wrote:
I'd be careful with this quote since it first appears in the work of John Bale, Acta Romanorum Pontificum (The Pageant of the Popes).  Bale was a student of Thomas Cranmer, and a favorite of Thomas Cromwell, both toadies of Henry VIII, who we all know had a well known axe to grind with Roman Catholic Church. 

I'm confused.

Why is this dismissed as propaganda when you offer wrting from Pope XX or Saint YY or Pope Saint ZZ and expect us to accept that as absolute, incontrovertible proof?

Didn't the church fathers have a pro-Catholic bias? Shouldn't both side's writings be taken with a grain of salt (or in some cases a salt lick)?

 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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Ebionite
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jcgadfly wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

totus_tuus wrote:
I'd be careful with this quote since it first appears in the work of John Bale, Acta Romanorum Pontificum (The Pageant of the Popes). Bale was a student of Thomas Cranmer, and a favorite of Thomas Cromwell, both toadies of Henry VIII, who we all know had a well known axe to grind with Roman Catholic Church.

I'm confused.

Why is this dismissed as propaganda when you offer wrting from Pope XX or Saint YY or Pope Saint ZZ and expect us to accept that as absolute, incontrovertible proof?

I can't speak for what totus-tuus or any Catholic considers as "proof", but I can tell you how I, as an entirely non-Catholic atheist student of history, know this so-called "quote" is totally bogus.

Firstly, there's the fact that it's usually cited as being a direct quote by Leo X, but is never quoted with an attribution as to when or where or (importantly) why Pope Leo said this. That rings major warning bells to begin with. Even if the papcy really did, secretly, believe Jesus never existed, why the hell would one Renaissance pope be so stupid as to come out and say so openly? Where or in what circumstances would a pope like Leo X be so dumb as to openly say or write this?

It doesn't take much investigation to discover that the answer to this question is "nowhere" and that the reason the people who use this so-called quote don't attribute a source is that it's not from anything Leo X actually said or wrote at all, but from an anti-Catholic work of satirical fiction written by an Englishman who never met Leo X and written several decades after Leo died. Bale was a ferevent convert to Protestantism and a protoge opf Thomas Cramner who used his writings - largely plays and satires - to further Cramner's pursuit of Henry VIII's anti-Catholic political and religious agenda.

So anyone who takes as legitimate a "quote" put in the mouth of not just a Pope, but the Pope who was Luther's opponent and therefore the arch-villain of early Protestantism, by an anti-Catholic zealot who was an instrument of Henry VIII and Cramner needs their heads examined. Accepting any quote about a Pope from the guy who also wrote works like The Three Laws of Nature, Moses and Christ, corrupted by the Sodomytes, Pharisees and Papystes most wicked in the hothouse atmosphere of Reformation propaganda and counter-propaganda is like solemnly accepting that Martin Luther did, in fact, have donkey's ears and preached with Satan himself whispering in his ear, since that's how Catholic propaganda of the time depicted him.

In other words citing a satire like Bale's is like using South Park as a historical source and taking his "quote" seruiously is like accepting what an article in Der Stürmer circa 1936 had to say about the sanitary habits of Jews.

This "quote" is a good yardstick though - anyone who takes it seriously is either a fantatic, an idiot or a combination of both. If you see someone using it take it as a flashing red light with a warning sign: "If you want to be taken seriously, avoid this person at all costs!"


"Any fool can make history, but it takes a genius to write it."
Oscar Wilde


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Thanks for the info.

Thanks for the info.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


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I agree with the detractors

I agree with the detractors of this quote.  It is probably bogus.  This is why one has to be particularly careful with quotes and specifically with certain mythicists who would jump on these without actual consideration of the evidence. 

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totus_tuus
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That was a great summation,

That was a great summation, Ebionite.  Kudos.


MattShizzle
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Well, now I'm glad I added a

Well, now I'm glad I added a question mark in my original post. Oh well, too bad it wasn't real.

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Jerud1711
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 Matt, the pope might be

 Matt, the pope might be using the term "myth" in a different way. Do you have a reference for your quote? I would like to verify the authenticity and context of the statement.


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Statement, THE POPE IS A

Statement, THE POPE IS A LIER .... THE POPE IS THE DEVIL ( of wrong thinking ) What a bunch of useless crap religion is ..... ALL is ONE , no division .....

   Sue the POPE and his for fraud ..... I am SERIOUS , fix our selves , WE ARE GOD , all is GOD , 

   Jesus said FUCK THE CHURCH , read the bible .... find that atheist Jesus in there,

                      I AM GOD , a Jesus did say ....  exactly AS YOU !

                                                     ONE

                                 Zero superstition Zero separation

                                                    TRUTH

                                                        


ronin-dog
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The current pope is actually

The current pope is actually Emperor Palpatine Smiling


Ebionite
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Jerud1711 wrote: Matt, the

Jerud1711 wrote:

 Matt, the pope might be using the term "myth" in a different way. Do you have a reference for your quote? I would like to verify the authenticity and context of the statement.

 

Umm, have you even read this thread?!  I've already given the source and context of the "quote" and shown it's not a quote from Pope Leo X at all, but from a satirical play written by anti-Catholics on the other side of Europe years after he died.

So "authenticity"?  Is this a joke?  It helps to actually read the thread.

"Any fool can make history, but it takes a genius to write it."
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Rook_Hawkins
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You'll find that Jerud does

You'll find that Jerud does not concern himself with pesky things like "reading" and "evidence".

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MattShizzle
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Not to mention the fact that

Not to mention the fact that had he actually said that what possible meaning of "myth" could he have been using? I have never seen or heard the word "myth" used in a way that suggests something that is true - indeed, it's a word used to imply that something is not.

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Not surpassing. There were

Not surpassing. There were several highly corrupt Popes who were entirely secular-some even worshiped Pagan gods.

www.somethingawful.com/ d/most-awful/popes-cadaver-synod.php