Perhaps a taker on the "prove Jesus existed" offer?

Slice
Posts: 18
Joined: 2007-07-08
User is offlineOffline
Perhaps a taker on the "prove Jesus existed" offer?

I've been talking to (...and debating with) to a youth-leader who heads a Christian ministry in Colorado recently, and he's been claiming that he can, in fact, prove that Jesus existed.  I'm a bit unsure where to take this from here - here's what he said.

"Again i will reiterate, the life and times of Jesus is one of the most documented events in the works of ancient antiquity. To resort to some sort of childish challenge to offer a check of $666 is a little piny, when all we need to do is a little study on the historiography of the New Testament. I could list a wide swath of historians who have acurately document the life of Jesus, as well as the relevence of the New Testament as compared to ALL history previous to 1495. If indeed you suggest we wipe Jesus from the history of the world, then you must be prepared to use the same canon to wipe every culture previous to guetenburg, clear off the map. So if you're ready, I suppose we better get rid Mesopotamia, the philosophy of the Greeks, the Roman empire, the Middle Ages, and everything in between. So don't challenge me with some second rate contest to prove Jesus existance. It's just not the level of scholarship I think you and I are ready to stoop down to. I appreciate the challenge, and if you really need it, I'll provide. I'm in asia right now under a bit of a time crunch, so I really don't have the time, but in a week, I can post it."

Yup, he called the challenge "second rate" Sticking out tongue

So do I call his bluff?


The_Fragile
The_Fragile's picture
Posts: 102
Joined: 2006-07-16
User is offlineOffline
Call his bluff. The New

Call his bluff. The New Testament is not evidence for Jesus' existence. All it offers are dubious supernatural claims and zero contemporary accounts of Jesus' existence.

 

A wide swath of historians? Funny how he didn't mention them. I'll bet you $666 that anyone of those historians has bias religious slant.

 

"So if you're ready, I suppose we better get rid Mesopotamia, the philosophy of the Greeks, the Roman empire, the Middle Ages, and everything in between."

Why would we need to? He can't conflate this analogy to the level of Jesus. We have contemporary evidence for the list above. 

 

"So don't challenge me with some second rate contest to prove Jesus existance"

He has already failed at it, miserably. 

 

"It's just not the level of scholarship I think you and I are ready to stoop down to."

 

I doubt he would know good scholarship if it bit him in the pills. 

 

"I appreciate the challenge, and if you really need it, I'll provide."

Go ahead and tell him to hop on over. I'm sure more versed individuals than myself would love to tear him a new one (intellectually of course). 

 

I hope they cannot see
the limitless potential
living inside of me
to murder everything.
I hope they cannot see
I am the great destroyer.


stuntgibbon
Moderator
stuntgibbon's picture
Posts: 696
Joined: 2007-05-17
User is offlineOffline
Do it!  I volunteer Rook's

Do it!  I volunteer Rook's money. Eye-wink


Sapient
High Level DonorRRS CO-FOUNDERRRS Core MemberWebsite Admin
Sapient's picture
Posts: 7522
Joined: 2006-04-18
User is offlineOffline
Slice wrote:I'm a bit

Slice wrote:
I'm a bit unsure where to take this from here

Tell him to follow the rules, collect his check, and stop trying to brainwash you.


Quote:
"Again i will reiterate, the life and times of Jesus is one of the most documented events in the works of ancient antiquity. To resort to some sort of childish challenge to offer a check of $666 is a little piny, when all we need to do is a little study on the historiography of the New Testament.

Unfortunatly the historiography of the New Testament available currently does not meet the challenge criteria.

Jesus Challenge 

AWARD FOR CONTEMPORARY EVIDENCE: $666
The evidence must reconcile well with what we know of the time from Roman records and other writers of the day. They must also not conflict with cities, governments, places and people we know who actually lived during the time. Keep in mind the New Testament was written well after Jesus died, and serves as no proof of his existence.

What doesn't count as CONTEMPORARY evidence? Lucian, The Talmud, Pliny the Younger, Thallus, Flavius Josephus, Tacitus, and Suetonius. Those are the most common proofs, none of which were written while Jesus was alive.

 

Quote:
 I could list a wide swath of historians who have acurately document the life of Jesus, as well as the relevence of the New Testament as compared to ALL history previous to 1495.

Me too.  There in the list above of people who don't count as they're not contemporary.  And there are so many reasons and so many ways why they are not to be trusted as supporting sources to the NT.

 Here's some of the ones he wants to use: Lucian, The Talmud, Pliny the Younger, Thallus, Flavius Josephus, Tacitus, and Suetonius

 

Quote:
 If indeed you suggest we wipe Jesus from the history of the world, then you must be prepared to use the same canon to wipe every culture previous to guetenburg, clear off the map. So if you're ready, I suppose we better get rid Mesopotamia, the philosophy of the Greeks, the Roman empire, the Middle Ages, and everything in between.

Tell him to stop whining like an illogical retard and to collect his money and shut us up if it's so god damned easy.  Jesus Christ!

Quote:
So don't challenge me with some second rate contest to prove Jesus existance

I'd call it a third rate contest.  Mostly on the fact that it's rigged.  It's a ploy to expose deluded people like the guy you're talking too.  We're certain of the fact that no contemporaneous evidence exists for Jesus, and so therefore you can either admit, preach about historians that make your case, or find actual contemporary proof.  He'll submit historians and proofs that have been exposed already on this site, then throw another few strawmans and poor assumptions out, and be on his way.

He's got a lot of pride in his delusions, and he's willing to act on his delusions verbally with others in an attempt to convince them.  I'd keep my distance, maybe carry a personal safety item, like a taser.

 

Quote:
It's just not the level of scholarship I think you and I are ready to stoop down to.

The level of scholarship?  Who gives a shit about levels of scholarship here?  We're asking for someone to give us a contemporary proof for Jesus Christ and we're willing to pay $666 for it so we can parlay that into hundreds of millions of dollars on the free market. 

As for "scholarship" level, we will gladly use Richard Carrier, Robert Price, and a fleet of other credible historians who hold doctorates in the field if needed. 

 

   

Quote:
I appreciate the challenge, and if you really need it, I'll provide.

By all means, provide.  We really need it. 

 

 

Quote:
I'm in asia right now under a bit of a time crunch, so I really don't have the time, but in a week, I can post it."

Okie dokie, tell him to submit his contemporary evidence of Jesus Christ.  Also tell him we'll be incinerating the preaching part of his post, and looking for what will most assuredly not even be there.

 

Quote:
So do I call his bluff?

Duh.

- Brian Sapient


Buy popular atheist books and support the Rational Response Squad at the same time on Amazon.


zarathustra
atheist
zarathustra's picture
Posts: 1149
Joined: 2006-11-16
User is onlineOnline
a youth-leader who heads a

a youth-leader who heads a Christian ministry in Colorado wrote:
Again i will reiterate, the life and times of Jesus is one of the most documented events in the works of ancient antiquity.

Not to be confused with modern antiquity.

a youth-leader who heads a Christian ministry in Colorado wrote:
If indeed you suggest we wipe Jesus from the history of the world, then you must be prepared to use the same canon to wipe every culture previous to guetenburg, clear off the map. So if you're ready, I suppose we better get rid Mesopotamia, the philosophy of the Greeks, the Roman empire, the Middle Ages, and everything in between.

How so? Does this kindly minister believe that jibril's appearance to mohammed was an historical event? How about krishna's chariot ride, or buddha's enlightenment under the banana tree? For if not, he must likewise be prepared to do some culture wiping of his own.

Less abstrusely: cultures can be built around myths. The culture may be part of history, but that doesn't mean the myth is.

a youth-leader who heads a Christian ministry in Colorado wrote:
I appreciate the challenge, and if you really need it, I'll provide.

Why is he waiting for a challenge, and only willing to provide if we "really need it"? As a minister, wouldn't he want to spread the good news? In fact, that's his "job", isn't it?

a youth-leader who heads a Christian ministry in Colorado wrote:
I'm in asia right now under a bit of a time crunch, so I really don't have the time, but in a week, I can post it."

Let's hope this isn't Rapture Week, or we'll miss it.

Slice wrote:

So do I call his bluff?

I bet he's praying that you don't.

There are no theists on operating tables.

πππ†
π†††


Conor Wilson
Posts: 451
Joined: 2008-01-07
User is offlineOffline
I, too, expect the usual

I, too, expect the usual raft of non-contemporaries.

In short...this ought to be good.

Conor
______________________________________________________
"Faith does not fear reason."--Pope Pius XII
"But it should!"--Me


Rook_Hawkins
RRS CO-FOUNDER
Rook_Hawkins's picture
Posts: 1322
Joined: 2006-02-11
User is offlineOffline
I think you should invite

I think you should invite him here to defend his case.  I'd love to see what evidence he has to present.

Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists. Books by Rook Hawkins (Thomas Verenna)