Rook: Fall of Jerusalem

phooney
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Rook: Fall of Jerusalem

I'm currently writing a little bit in a debate about evidence inside the bible that would indicate that it is not a contemporary account.

I believe I've heard you mention that the bible mentions the fall of Jerusalem, which is supposed to have happened in the year 70.

After a quick search, I can find reference to a fall of Jerusalem in the time of a King Nebuchadnezzar, which is apparently hundreds of years BC.

Is there another section of the bible telling about a separate fall of Jerusalem that you were talking about?  Or have I completely misunderstood?

Is there better internal evidence for the bible not being contemporary?

Thanks


Rook_Hawkins
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My suggestion to you is to

My suggestion to you is to read the bible cover to cover.  I would stay away from using search functions because you can't adequately know how the translators phrased the statements in the Gospels.  The only way is to read the Gospels, and the whole bible, to really learn something about it.

 

Aside from that, you can find reference to the fall of Jerusalem in the following verses:

Mark 13:1-2 (Although I am uncertain on this passage - it has been widely regarded as a reference to the fall of Jerusalem, however I don't think that was completely what the author had in mind).

Matt. 24:1-2 

Luke 21:5-6

There is none in John that can be definitive.  This is because John was writing a different reason then the author of Mark, and although he used the other Gospels, he certainly made redactions.

 

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Jerusalem has been raised or

Jerusalem has been raised or heavily damaged a number of times subsequent to Christ.  Titus Flavius destroyed it in 70 AD, Hadrian defiled and renamed it after the Bar Kochba revolt in 135 AD.  There have been many other attacks and invasions since then.

Freedom of religious belief is an inalienable right. Stuffing that belief down other people's throats is not.


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No offense, Patrician,

No offense, Patrician, but...that isn't relevant to the question posed.


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Yeah, I know.  I was kind

Yeah, I know.  I was kind of hoping to forestall any replies from Rapturites quoting Daniel, the Jewish diasporas and the rebuilding of Jerusalem on the basis that they all seem to conveniently forget that Hadrian banned all Jews from Jerusalem after the failed revolt - an edict that held for about four hundred years if I remember rightly - and which could thus be interpreted as a third diaspora of the Jews.  They also seem to forget all the other times the city was ransacked and the Jews evicted or slaughtered (the crusade of 1099 springs to mind) when doing their silly calculations.

 But sorry, didn't mean to hijack the topic or anything.

Freedom of religious belief is an inalienable right. Stuffing that belief down other people's throats is not.


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You don't have to apologize,

You don't have to apologize, I was just caught off guard.  Thought perhaps I missed something, or I stated something that warranted a reply of some sort. =D

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bonniebj
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End times are here

I think you may be referring to the very end of this age.  (Fall of Jerusalem)  But it is only temporary. 

 I would just like to inform those who do not believe the bible is truth that we are knee deep in end time prophecy as we speak.

 The New World Order is rapidly developing as the birthing pains get closer and closer just as a woman in trevail.

The US is being sold out and rapidly dismantled.  If this immigration bill goes through which is really a smokescreen for the acceleration of the Security and prosperity Partnership with Mexico and Canada (a deal made with Bush, Fox and PM of Canada on march 23, 2005. 

The political beast of Revelation is rising up right now!  

Study the Trilateral Commission and you will see who the significant players are in bringing this about for the USA.   The EU has already been formed.

There are only 6 nations NOT a part of the UN. 

As we draw closer to the emergence of the North American Union (US/Mexico/Canada) and our new monetary unit, the Amero, we see the dismantling of the USA is rapid.

Note:  JerUSAlem

 Israel and USA are connected spiritually. 

There is just so much but we are definitely in the 5th trump right now.

 There are some here who need to hear this and will Wake Up.  Others will make fun and that is okay!

I am here for the ones who want to know the truth and if you open your eyes and your mind and really look into what is going on in the USA...you will understand there is more to this than an immigration bill.

At this point we are among those who will remain alive and will experience end time prophecy.

Please note that I am not a believer in the rapture theory. There will be no pre-tribe rapture.

I also believe the earth is billions of years old and believe the bible teaches this as it speaks of an age before this one and an age to come.  A world without end.  The earth will be altered again but only the evil rudiments will be destroyed and she will be restored for the next age.

Sounds crazy I know but it is truth. 

Hang on cause it is happening and we are very close to the arrival of the big deception of the religious system!  The 6th Trump!  The completion of the apostacy.

As the political system in place now to bring about the One World System which the bible speaks of....it will receive a deadly wound which will be healed by the anti-christ.

I have to get off the internet now. Sorry this is sort of sketchy and confusion.  I will post some sites tomorrow that will help you for those interested.


MrRage
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bonniebj wrote:

bonniebj wrote:

Note: JerUSAlem

Israel and USA are connected spiritually.

No, your wrong. It's jERUsalem. Eru Ilúvatar is of course the creator god according to J.R.R. Tolkien's book The Silmarillion. So you see, Israel and The Shire, not the USA, are connected spiritually.

bonniebj wrote:
Others will make fun and that is okay!

Have you sat down an actually considered why people make fun of you?


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bonniebj wrote: I think

bonniebj wrote:

I think you may be referring to the very end of this age. (Fall of Jerusalem) But it is only temporary.

I would just like to inform those who do not believe the bible is truth that we are knee deep in end time prophecy as we speak.

The New World Order is rapidly developing as the birthing pains get closer and closer just as a woman in trevail.

The US is being sold out and rapidly dismantled. If this immigration bill goes through which is really a smokescreen for the acceleration of the Security and prosperity Partnership with Mexico and Canada (a deal made with Bush, Fox and PM of Canada on march 23, 2005.

The political beast of Revelation is rising up right now!

Study the Trilateral Commission and you will see who the significant players are in bringing this about for the USA. The EU has already been formed.

There are only 6 nations NOT a part of the UN.

As we draw closer to the emergence of the North American Union (US/Mexico/Canada) and our new monetary unit, the Amero, we see the dismantling of the USA is rapid.

Note: JerUSAlem

Israel and USA are connected spiritually.

There is just so much but we are definitely in the 5th trump right now.

There are some here who need to hear this and will Wake Up. Others will make fun and that is okay!

I am here for the ones who want to know the truth and if you open your eyes and your mind and really look into what is going on in the USA...you will understand there is more to this than an immigration bill.

At this point we are among those who will remain alive and will experience end time prophecy.

Please note that I am not a believer in the rapture theory. There will be no pre-tribe rapture.

I also believe the earth is billions of years old and believe the bible teaches this as it speaks of an age before this one and an age to come. A world without end. The earth will be altered again but only the evil rudiments will be destroyed and she will be restored for the next age.

Sounds crazy I know but it is truth.

Hang on cause it is happening and we are very close to the arrival of the big deception of the religious system! The 6th Trump! The completion of the apostacy.

As the political system in place now to bring about the One World System which the bible speaks of....it will receive a deadly wound which will be healed by the anti-christ.

I have to get off the internet now. Sorry this is sort of sketchy and confusion. I will post some sites tomorrow that will help you for those interested.

Is this some kind of joke? 


pariahjane
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bonniebj wrote: I think

bonniebj wrote:

I think you may be referring to the very end of this age.  (Fall of Jerusalem)  But it is only temporary. 

 I would just like to inform those who do not believe the bible is truth that we are knee deep in end time prophecy as we speak.

 The New World Order is rapidly developing as the birthing pains get closer and closer just as a woman in trevail.

The US is being sold out and rapidly dismantled.  If this immigration bill goes through which is really a smokescreen for the acceleration of the Security and prosperity Partnership with Mexico and Canada (a deal made with Bush, Fox and PM of Canada on march 23, 2005. 

The political beast of Revelation is rising up right now!  

Study the Trilateral Commission and you will see who the significant players are in bringing this about for the USA.   The EU has already been formed.

There are only 6 nations NOT a part of the UN. 

As we draw closer to the emergence of the North American Union (US/Mexico/Canada) and our new monetary unit, the Amero, we see the dismantling of the USA is rapid.

Note:  JerUSAlem

 Israel and USA are connected spiritually. 

There is just so much but we are definitely in the 5th trump right now.

 There are some here who need to hear this and will Wake Up.  Others will make fun and that is okay!

I am here for the ones who want to know the truth and if you open your eyes and your mind and really look into what is going on in the USA...you will understand there is more to this than an immigration bill.

At this point we are among those who will remain alive and will experience end time prophecy.

Please note that I am not a believer in the rapture theory. There will be no pre-tribe rapture.

I also believe the earth is billions of years old and believe the bible teaches this as it speaks of an age before this one and an age to come.  A world without end.  The earth will be altered again but only the evil rudiments will be destroyed and she will be restored for the next age.

Sounds crazy I know but it is truth. 

Hang on cause it is happening and we are very close to the arrival of the big deception of the religious system!  The 6th Trump!  The completion of the apostacy.

As the political system in place now to bring about the One World System which the bible speaks of....it will receive a deadly wound which will be healed by the anti-christ.

I have to get off the internet now. Sorry this is sort of sketchy and confusion.  I will post some sites tomorrow that will help you for those interested.

The only thing you are right about is the fact that people will make fun of you. 

If god takes life he's an indian giver


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Do you wear a tinfoil hat?

Do you wear a tinfoil hat?


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Piper2000ca

Piper2000ca wrote:
bonniebj wrote:

I think you may be referring to the very end of this age. (Fall of Jerusalem) But it is only temporary.

I would just like to inform those who do not believe the bible is truth that we are knee deep in end time prophecy as we speak.

The New World Order is rapidly developing as the birthing pains get closer and closer just as a woman in trevail.

The US is being sold out and rapidly dismantled. If this immigration bill goes through which is really a smokescreen for the acceleration of the Security and prosperity Partnership with Mexico and Canada (a deal made with Bush, Fox and PM of Canada on march 23, 2005.

The political beast of Revelation is rising up right now!

Study the Trilateral Commission and you will see who the significant players are in bringing this about for the USA. The EU has already been formed.

There are only 6 nations NOT a part of the UN.

As we draw closer to the emergence of the North American Union (US/Mexico/Canada) and our new monetary unit, the Amero, we see the dismantling of the USA is rapid.

Note: JerUSAlem

Israel and USA are connected spiritually.

There is just so much but we are definitely in the 5th trump right now.

There are some here who need to hear this and will Wake Up. Others will make fun and that is okay!

I am here for the ones who want to know the truth and if you open your eyes and your mind and really look into what is going on in the USA...you will understand there is more to this than an immigration bill.

At this point we are among those who will remain alive and will experience end time prophecy.

Please note that I am not a believer in the rapture theory. There will be no pre-tribe rapture.

I also believe the earth is billions of years old and believe the bible teaches this as it speaks of an age before this one and an age to come. A world without end. The earth will be altered again but only the evil rudiments will be destroyed and she will be restored for the next age.

Sounds crazy I know but it is truth.

Hang on cause it is happening and we are very close to the arrival of the big deception of the religious system! The 6th Trump! The completion of the apostacy.

As the political system in place now to bring about the One World System which the bible speaks of....it will receive a deadly wound which will be healed by the anti-christ.

I have to get off the internet now. Sorry this is sort of sketchy and confusion. I will post some sites tomorrow that will help you for those interested.

Is this some kind of joke?

What worries me about this type of end-time prophecy is that some numbskull will try to make it happen more quickly, claiming it to be God's will 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin


The Patrician
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bonniebj wrote: I think you

bonniebj wrote:
I think you may be referring to the very end of this age. (Fall of Jerusalem) But it is only temporary.

Which fall of Jerusalem out of the dozen or so throughout recorded history are you referring to or is it just a lottery?

Quote:
I would just like to inform those who do not believe the bible is truth that we are knee deep in end time prophecy as we speak.

No we're not. For every example you can give I can give you one relating to an earlier time.

Quote:
The New World Order is rapidly developing as the birthing pains get closer and closer just as a woman in trevail.

Which NWO are we talking about? Is it:

a) The expansion of the Catholic Church to dominate Western Europe, Asia and North Africa until about the twelfth century?

b) The imperialism of the European nations during the period of colonialism from, say, the sixteenth to nineteenth centuries?

c) The expansion of political ideology post war?

d) Something else that you can't actually explain?

There are, of course, many other examples of a NWO. These are just a few.

Quote:
The US is being sold out and rapidly dismantled.

*Checks economic tables*

Nope, it isn't.

Quote:
If this immigration bill goes through which is really a smokescreen for the acceleration of the Security and prosperity Partnership with Mexico and Canada (a deal made with Bush, Fox and PM of Canada on march 23, 2005.

North American Free Trade Agreement anyone? It's actually been in operation since 1994 and the US has done rather well out of it.

Quote:
The political beast of Revelation is rising up right now!

*Sigh*

Barbarossa.

Martin Luther.

Napoleon.

Hitler.

Etc, etc, etc...

Quote:
Study the Trilateral Commission and you will see who the significant players are in bringing this about for the USA. The EU has already been formed.

Oh God, you're going to go Illuminati on us, aren't you?

Quote:
There are only 6 nations NOT a part of the UN.

Wrong. The Vatican is an observer state, Palestine is a non member entity, the Cook Islands and Niue are represented by New Zealand and Western Sahara is basically a war zone mostly administered by Morocco.

Quote:
As we draw closer to the emergence of the North American Union (US/Mexico/Canada) and our new monetary unit, the Amero, we see the dismantling of the USA is rapid.

No chance. The dollar will remain and the US will be the dominant partner. Neither Mexico or Canada will surrender their sovereignty.

Quote:
Note: JerUSAlem

Note: What's your point?

Quote:
Israel and USA are connected spiritually.

No they're not.

Quote:
There is just so much but we are definitely in the 5th trump right now.

I thought we were at that stage during the Napoleonic wars?

Quote:
There are some here who need to hear this and will Wake Up. Others will make fun and that is okay!

Good. We enjoy a good laugh.

Quote:
I am here for the ones who want to know the truth and if you open your eyes and your mind and really look into what is going on in the USA...you will understand there is more to this than an immigration bill.

Only if you're paranoid and wear a tinfoil hat. Seriously, it's not even the first or biggest trade agreement.

Quote:
At this point we are among those who will remain alive and will experience end time prophecy.

LOLno.

Quote:
Please note that I am not a believer in the rapture theory. There will be no pre-tribe rapture.

That's good to know. Unfortunately it seems you do believe in a load of other rubbish instead.

Quote:
I also believe the earth is billions of years old

Hoorah! Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and again!

Quote:
and believe the bible teaches this as it speaks of an age before this one and an age to come.

Most cultural myths do.

Quote:
A world without end. The earth will be altered again but only the evil rudiments will be destroyed and she will be restored for the next age.

Having existed as a ball of molten rock for the vast majority of its existence, the earth - were it sentient - wouldn't give a stuff about us and our silly mayfly like existence.

Quote:
Sounds crazy

That's because it is.

Quote:
I know but it is truth.

No it's not.

Quote:
Hang on cause it is happening and we are very close to the arrival of the big deception of the religious system! The 6th Trump! The completion of the apostacy.

Oh, so that didn't happen during the Reformation then?

Quote:
As the political system in place now to bring about the One World System which the bible speaks of....it will receive a deadly wound which will be healed by the anti-christ.

Considering the US and UK basically told the UN to go f**k itself over Iraq I wouldn't put too much stock in world government.

Quote:
I have to get off the internet now.

Why? Is it lights out time at your particular institution?

Quote:
Sorry this is sort of sketchy and confusion. I will post some sites tomorrow that will help you for those interested.

I'm going to bet that most of them have bright colours, big text and bad formatting.

Freedom of religious belief is an inalienable right. Stuffing that belief down other people's throats is not.


xamination
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...Were we just preached to?

...Were we just preached to?


Susan
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xamination wrote: ...Were

xamination wrote:
...Were we just preached to?

Yup. Are you scared now? Smiling


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Susan wrote: xamination

Susan wrote:

xamination wrote:
...Were we just preached to?

Yup. Are you scared now? Smiling

 

Yes susan. I am scared of losing iq points. 


razorphreak
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Rook_Hawkins wrote: Aside

Rook_Hawkins wrote:
Aside from that, you can find reference to the fall of Jerusalem in the following verses:

Mark 13:1-2 (Although I am uncertain on this passage - it has been widely regarded as a reference to the fall of Jerusalem, however I don't think that was completely what the author had in mind).

Matt. 24:1-2

Luke 21:5-6


rook I'm curious as to why you picked those verses.

I ask because the use of those verses as relating to the fall of Jerusalem are out of context to the point of the theme of the chapter to which each is written. Mark 13 like Matthew 24 and Luke 21 were written to make one continuous point of Jesus' return to Earth, not one for Jerusalem and another for Jesus. It becomes relevant when the chapters are taken from first to last verse, not picked apart.  The verse that supports this more than others is Mark 13:30 (and the similar).  The word "generation" is used in context of the Greek definition of "race" and more so to mean the "human race" because of that context used.

Now I did read something interesting that labeled these verses to be a "double prophsey" in that they mean BOTH end of time and end of time "as the Jews knew it".  As such, well I think you can figure it out to meaning it could cover the fall of Jerusalem but it also continues to hold for the end of time (i.e. the return of Jesus). 

What has me really thrown is how you question Mark 13 yet Matt 24 and Luke 21 are almost the same story with the same theme and same point. Why?

You made the suggestion to read the bible cover to cover but that does nothing if you are simply reading to see what was written. Please understand I'm not asking for this thread to be jacked into a question of biblical validity, authenticity, or truth-telling relevance, but rather pointing out that as with any literary reference, it needs to have understanding to be spoken of properly (e.g. I get flamed if I say evolution texts said apes and not primates).

What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire


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razorphreak

razorphreak wrote:

Rook_Hawkins wrote:
Aside from that, you can find reference to the fall of Jerusalem in the following verses:

Mark 13:1-2 (Although I am uncertain on this passage - it has been widely regarded as a reference to the fall of Jerusalem, however I don't think that was completely what the author had in mind).

Matt. 24:1-2

Luke 21:5-6


rook I'm curious as to why you picked those verses.

I ask because the use of those verses as relating to the fall of Jerusalem are out of context to the point of the theme of the chapter to which each is written. Mark 13 like Matthew 24 and Luke 21 were written to make one continuous point of Jesus' return to Earth, not one for Jerusalem and another for Jesus. It becomes relevant when the chapters are taken from first to last verse, not picked apart. The verse that supports this more than others is Mark 13:30 (and the similar). The word "generation" is used in context of the Greek definition of "race" and more so to mean the "human race" because of that context used.

Now I did read something interesting that labeled these verses to be a "double prophsey" in that they mean BOTH end of time and end of time "as the Jews knew it". As such, well I think you can figure it out to meaning it could cover the fall of Jerusalem but it also continues to hold for the end of time (i.e. the return of Jesus).

What has me really thrown is how you question Mark 13 yet Matt 24 and Luke 21 are almost the same story with the same theme and same point. Why?

You made the suggestion to read the bible cover to cover but that does nothing if you are simply reading to see what was written. Please understand I'm not asking for this thread to be jacked into a question of biblical validity, authenticity, or truth-telling relevance, but rather pointing out that as with any literary reference, it needs to have understanding to be spoken of properly (e.g. I get flamed if I say evolution texts said apes and not primates).

It could be the literal fall of Jerusalem or it could be the end of time?

Way to hedge your bets. 

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin