What does this verse mean to you?

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What does this verse mean to you?

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

 

Surah 9:5 Slay the pagans wherever you may find them...


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Pretty clear: kill anyone

Pretty clear: kill anyone who isn't a christian. Nice pick from the NT, Dave. I'll have to remember to throw that one in the face of the next fundy who claims to obey the whole bible word-for-word (but who claims he doesn't have to follow the OT due to some creative reading of something Jesus said).

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I would be careful about the

I would be careful about the Luke verse.  I don't think Jesus is actually saying kill anyone who is not Christian, I think he is telling a story, and that is one of the lines another person says, I think it might be a ruler of somesort.  Aren't the previous lines talking about money being given?  I would ask Rook about that verse.


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22jesus22 wrote: I would be

22jesus22 wrote:
I would be careful about the Luke verse.  I don't think Jesus is actually saying kill anyone who is not Christian, I think he is telling a story, and that is one of the lines another person says, I think it might be a ruler of somesort.  Aren't the previous lines talking about money being given?  I would ask Rook about that verse.

And right you are to be careful, 22.  This verse comes at the end of the parable of the talents, and quotes a ruler who is speaking of sucts who rejected his rule.  The king is judging rebels who denied his kingship, a parallel to the final judgement of men by Christ.

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totus_tuus

totus_tuus wrote:

22jesus22 wrote:
I would be careful about the Luke verse. I don't think Jesus is actually saying kill anyone who is not Christian, I think he is telling a story, and that is one of the lines another person says, I think it might be a ruler of somesort. Aren't the previous lines talking about money being given? I would ask Rook about that verse.

And right you are to be careful, 22. This verse comes at the end of the parable of the talents, and quotes a ruler who is speaking of sucts who rejected his rule. The king is judging rebels who denied his kingship, a parallel to the final judgement of men by Christ.

You are right. In context:

Luke 19:11-27(NIV)

The Parable of the Ten Minas
11While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas. 'Put this money to work,' he said, 'until I come back.'

14"But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, 'We don't want this man to be our king.'

15"He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.

16"The first one came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned ten more.'

17" 'Well done, my good servant!' his master replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.'

18"The second came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned five more.'

19"His master answered, 'You take charge of five cities.'

20"Then another servant came and said, 'Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.'

22"His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?'

24"Then he said to those standing by, 'Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.'

25" 'Sir,' they said, 'he already has ten!'

26"He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. 27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."

 

Of course, right after that, Jesus orders his disciples to steal a colt (in some translations a donkey) for him, which they do.

 

The Triumphal Entry
28After Jesus had said this, he went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem. 29As he approached Bethphage and Bethany at the hill called the Mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples, saying to them, 30"Go to the village ahead of you, and as you enter it, you will find a colt tied there, which no one has ever ridden. Untie it and bring it here. 31If anyone asks you, 'Why are you untying it?' tell him, 'The Lord needs it.' "

32Those who were sent ahead went and found it just as he had told them. 33As they were untying the colt, its owners asked them, "Why are you untying the colt?"

34They replied, "The Lord needs it."

35They brought it to Jesus, threw their cloaks on the colt and put Jesus on it.

 

So there was a decent character indictment of Jesus in that chapter, just not that verse.

EDIT: I'd also like some context on the one from the Qur'An. We don't want to use faulty arguments against them either. 


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BenfromCanada

BenfromCanada wrote:
totus_tuus wrote:

22jesus22 wrote:
I would be careful about the Luke verse. I don't think Jesus is actually saying kill anyone who is not Christian, I think he is telling a story, and that is one of the lines another person says, I think it might be a ruler of somesort. Aren't the previous lines talking about money being given? I would ask Rook about that verse.

And right you are to be careful, 22. This verse comes at the end of the parable of the talents, and quotes a ruler who is speaking of sucts who rejected his rule. The king is judging rebels who denied his kingship, a parallel to the final judgement of men by Christ.

You are right. In context:

Luke 19:11-27(NIV)

The Parable of the Ten Minas
11While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas. 'Put this money to work,' he said, 'until I come back.'

14"But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, 'We don't want this man to be our king.'

15"He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.

16"The first one came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned ten more.'

17" 'Well done, my good servant!' his master replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.'

18"The second came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned five more.'

19"His master answered, 'You take charge of five cities.'

20"Then another servant came and said, 'Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.'

22"His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?'

24"Then he said to those standing by, 'Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.'

25" 'Sir,' they said, 'he already has ten!'

26"He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. 27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."

Of course, right after that, Jesus orders his disciples to steal a colt (in some translations a donkey) for him, which they do.

The Triumphal Entry
28After Jesus had said this, he went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem. 29As he approached Bethphage and Bethany at the hill called the Mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples, saying to them, 30"Go to the village ahead of you, and as you enter it, you will find a colt tied there, which no one has ever ridden. Untie it and bring it here. 31If anyone asks you, 'Why are you untying it?' tell him, 'The Lord needs it.' "

32Those who were sent ahead went and found it just as he had told them. 33As they were untying the colt, its owners asked them, "Why are you untying the colt?"

34They replied, "The Lord needs it."

35They brought it to Jesus, threw their cloaks on the colt and put Jesus on it.

So there was a decent character indictment of Jesus in that chapter, just not that verse.

EDIT: I'd also like some context on the one from the Qur'An. We don't want to use faulty arguments against them either. 

Nice pick up on the horse theft, Ben.  But He's God, right?  It was His horse to begin with.  LOL

Sorry I can't help you with the sura from the Koran.  I'm not very conversant with Islam.

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totus_tuus wrote: Nice

totus_tuus wrote:

Nice pick up on the horse theft, Ben. But He's God, right? It was His horse to begin with. LOL

Sorry I can't help you with the sura from the Koran. I'm not very conversant with Islam.

Thanks Totus! But the fact is, Jesus didn't steal the horse himself, but sent his disciples to do it. 

 

I'll look up Tsura 9:3 in my Qur'An, but it's only an annotated one. It might not be in there. 


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BenfromCanada

BenfromCanada wrote:

Thanks Totus! But the fact is, Jesus didn't steal the horse himself, but sent his disciples to do it. 

and hitler didnt kill all those jews himself. but it still makes him responsible.


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Making Hitler responsible is

Making Hitler responsible is absolving the hundreds of Germans and others who took part in it. He spoke sure, but they chose to listen.

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Rev0lver

Rev0lver wrote:
BenfromCanada wrote:

Thanks Totus! But the fact is, Jesus didn't steal the horse himself, but sent his disciples to do it.

and hitler didnt kill all those jews himself. but it still makes him responsible.

My point was that if it was his, he'd take it for himself.  


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Dave_G wrote: Luke 19:27

Dave_G wrote:

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

 

Surah 9:5 Slay the pagans wherever you may find them...

 

Thanks for asking this...

 

The first verse is a prime example of how "The God Who Wasn't There" is a poorly made and biased film. Jesus is telling a parable of king who orders his enemies to be brought before him and killed. Thats all it is.

 

Surah is not in the bible. Where did you get that from? I am honestly wondering. But it still is a valid addressable point. Yes, the Israelites were commanded to slay all the pagans in their area. It's an undeniable truth to the old testiment. However you have to understand two things:

1. The pagans in that area really were blood thirsty people. The sacraficed there own children to Molech. To immediately counter the rebutal... No, Issaic did NOT sacrafice his child to Yahweh. That was only a test with which would never trully be allowed by Yahweh

2. Wicked people will always use the violence in the old testiment to justify violence today and thats wrong. When Jesus came to this earth he established a new law of love and non-violence towards all people. You can look at the history of our nation and the brutal slaughter of INNOCENT NATIVES as the work of Satan, justified with the bible. The unjust oppression of the natives today is not only heart breaking... but it is anti-christ as well.

 

Thanks for this post!


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tree-sitter wrote: Surah

tree-sitter wrote:

Surah is not in the bible. Where did you get that from? I am honestly wondering.

You didn't know? A surah is a unit of organization in the Qur'an, one of the books of the Qur'an, where each surah contains a number of verses called ayats. There are 114 surahs in the Qur'an and 2300 ayats. 

"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.

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deludedgod

deludedgod wrote:
tree-sitter wrote:

Surah is not in the bible. Where did you get that from? I am honestly wondering.

You didn't know? A surah is a unit of organization in the Qur'an, one of the books of the Qur'an, where each surah contains a number of verses called ayats. There are 114 surahs in the Qur'an and 2300 ayats.

 

I bet if Tree-Sitter studied other religions she wouldn't be a Christian. 


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BenfromCanada

BenfromCanada wrote:
totus_tuus wrote:

22jesus22 wrote:
I would be careful about the Luke verse. I don't think Jesus is actually saying kill anyone who is not Christian, I think he is telling a story, and that is one of the lines another person says, I think it might be a ruler of somesort. Aren't the previous lines talking about money being given? I would ask Rook about that verse.

And right you are to be careful, 22. This verse comes at the end of the parable of the talents, and quotes a ruler who is speaking of sucts who rejected his rule. The king is judging rebels who denied his kingship, a parallel to the final judgement of men by Christ.

You are right. In context:

Luke 19:11-27(NIV)

The Parable of the Ten Minas
11While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas. 'Put this money to work,' he said, 'until I come back.'

14"But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, 'We don't want this man to be our king.'

15"He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.

16"The first one came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned ten more.'

17" 'Well done, my good servant!' his master replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.'

18"The second came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned five more.'

19"His master answered, 'You take charge of five cities.'

20"Then another servant came and said, 'Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.'

22"His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?'

24"Then he said to those standing by, 'Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.'

25" 'Sir,' they said, 'he already has ten!'

26"He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. 27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."

 

Of course, right after that, Jesus orders his disciples to steal a colt (in some translations a donkey) for him, which they do.

 

The Triumphal Entry
28After Jesus had said this, he went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem. 29As he approached Bethphage and Bethany at the hill called the Mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples, saying to them, 30"Go to the village ahead of you, and as you enter it, you will find a colt tied there, which no one has ever ridden. Untie it and bring it here. 31If anyone asks you, 'Why are you untying it?' tell him, 'The Lord needs it.' "

32Those who were sent ahead went and found it just as he had told them. 33As they were untying the colt, its owners asked them, "Why are you untying the colt?"

34They replied, "The Lord needs it."

35They brought it to Jesus, threw their cloaks on the colt and put Jesus on it.

 

So there was a decent character indictment of Jesus in that chapter, just not that verse.

EDIT: I'd also like some context on the one from the Qur'An. We don't want to use faulty arguments against them either.

 

 

LOL so even  IN contex it's still sinfull.

 

 

"though shalt not steal"

 


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Dave_G wrote: deludedgod

Dave_G wrote:
deludedgod wrote:
tree-sitter wrote:

Surah is not in the bible. Where did you get that from? I am honestly wondering.

You didn't know? A surah is a unit of organization in the Qur'an, one of the books of the Qur'an, where each surah contains a number of verses called ayats. There are 114 surahs in the Qur'an and 2300 ayats.

 

I bet if Tree-Sitter studied other religions she wouldn't be a Christian.

 

Lol... I'm a man....

 

I thought that might be from the Qur'an... I have only read bits and peices of it.  I have looked into some other religions but Yeshua's way really is the path for me.  I do highly respect Buddists and I think most Muslums get a bad rap.  But what did you mean by that Bro?  Do you mean that other religons are better the Christianity?  If so, how?  


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tree-sitter wrote: Dave_G

tree-sitter wrote:
Dave_G wrote:
deludedgod wrote:
tree-sitter wrote:

Surah is not in the bible. Where did you get that from? I am honestly wondering.

You didn't know? A surah is a unit of organization in the Qur'an, one of the books of the Qur'an, where each surah contains a number of verses called ayats. There are 114 surahs in the Qur'an and 2300 ayats.

 

I bet if Tree-Sitter studied other religions she wouldn't be a Christian.

 

Lol... I'm a man....

 

I thought that might be from the Qur'an... I have only read bits and peices of it. I have looked into some other religions but Yeshua's way really is the path for me. I do highly respect Buddists and I think most Muslums get a bad rap. But what did you mean by that Bro? Do you mean that other religons are better the Christianity? If so, how?

 

Religons without murder, incest, rape (tell me if I missed some)  are better.

 

 

Which would you want your kids to read:

 

1. Harry Potter

 

2. Setting of the sun so Joshua could finish his murderous mission .

 

I think the answer is obvious. 


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Dave_G wrote: Luke 19:27

Dave_G wrote:

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

 

Surah 9:5 Slay the pagans wherever you may find them...

Yawn.......and might I add.......yawn.

Now, watch the Christian and Muslim apologists craw out of the woodwork with the "out of context" excuses.

I can only go by the words above and it is as obious as Bush's bullshit, "You are either for or against"

None of the twits who read this be they Mulsim or Christian ever consider the opition, "Hey, why dont we just have a bitch fest over  a beer"

No, these dickwads litterally want to end another human life over the beef their daddies put them in the middle of, insted of insisting that daddy deal with their small penis size themselves.

Congrats Jesus and Allah, in your self centered quest for peace(translation=butfuckingtheopositionuntilltheysubmit) it makes perfect sense. WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN ALL MY LIFE?

Jesus, "Ok guys, here is the deal, everyone kisses my ass, or I start kicking ass and taking names"

Here is what Allah says, "Kill the pagans who appose me"

Humn if this is not the most GIGANTIC CASE OF A POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK.

Hey crossdresser and towel head, could you both do us a favor AND KEEP US OUT OF YOUR DICK MESURING CONTEST!

I'm sorry about worring about BEING KILLED over your competing mythologies. FORGIVE ME FOR VALUING BREATHING! 

What the fuck whould I care about life since I only have one? 

 

"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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Brian37 wrote: Dave_G

Brian37 wrote:
Dave_G wrote:

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

 

Surah 9:5 Slay the pagans wherever you may find them...

Yawn.......and might I add.......yawn.

Now, watch the Christian and Muslim apologists craw out of the woodwork with the "out of context" excuses.

I can only go by the words above and it is as obious as Bush's bullshit, "You are either for or against"

None of the twits who read this be they Mulsim or Christian ever consider the opition, "Hey, why dont we just have a bitch fest over a beer"

No, these dickwads litterally want to end another human life over the beef their daddies put them in the middle of, insted of insisting that daddy deal with their small penis size themselves.

Congrats Jesus and Allah, in your self centered quest for peace(translation=butfuckingtheopositionuntilltheysubmit) it makes perfect sense. WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN ALL MY LIFE?

Jesus, "Ok guys, here is the deal, everyone kisses my ass, or I start kicking ass and taking names"

Here is what Allah says, "Kill the pagans who appose me"

Humn if this is not the most GIGANTIC CASE OF A POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK.

Hey crossdresser and towel head, could you both do us a favor AND KEEP US OUT OF YOUR DICK MESURING CONTEST!

I'm sorry about worring about BEING KILLED over your competing mythologies. FORGIVE ME FOR VALUING BREATHING!

What the fuck whould I care about life since I only have one?

 

 

Brain... what on earth are you talking about, man? I don't mean to offend you, but you really just sound like a sad, bitter person in this message. I feel sorry for you, bro, you should really learn to let go of your anger and hatred. I am not saying that because I am a Christian and you are an athiest but because that stuff can be really hard on a guy and it will wear you down. Believe me, I know.

 

The truth is that the above verse is a parrable about a king and thats all there is too it... look it up for yourself. Many people do use the "taking it out of context" excuse but most of the verses you guys bring up really are taken out of context... except of course the old laws.

 

Ya know, I first came to this website in anger. I was extreamly upset about the Blashpemy Challange and thats what brought me here. The fact that you guys were encouraging people to blashphemy against the Holy Spirit for a 20$$ movie seemed pretty low and shamless... almost like televangilists that bleed poor widows out of their money. I really thought that all of you were very wicked, evil people but I came to realize that thats not true at all. I stuck around and learned that some athiests are very wonderful human beings that I would love to be friends with. There are athiests that accept there non-belief and yet they still have the compassion to respect other peoples faith. What I have gained from this website was an understanding that not all atheists are bad people and I should try to understand the individual athiest before I generalize all of them.

Regardless of this humbling and uplifing realization, I have also learned that this only applys to a small remnant of atheists... many more I have meet have been very un-loving, cruel, insulting and cold people. I will boldly say say that most witches, homosexuals and pagans that I have met are much more nicer, respectful and outwardly happy then some people on this site will ever be. So I am starting to see that coming to this website is not good for me at all because I can't even find people to have a respectful, level headed discussion with.

 

You see guys, I grew up in the church and let me tell ya', nothing could have been more depressing. I experienced many of the same hardships that the former Christians on this website experienced. I was picked on and osterized through the 10 years that I spent in church. It would have destroyed my faith in God if I hadn't decided to reject chruch and follow after a relationship with God instead. In my 24 years on this planet, I have have learned that the problem with the world is not religion or the lack of. The problem with the world is cold people. Sure, it's religion that justifys the bloodshed of war but it is the cruel, selfish complacency of the people that allow it to continue. Do you all understand what I am trying to say to you?

 

So I have to leave this website. You guys say that you want to want theists to be here so we can have intellectual debates but I ask you; "where are the debates". I admit, I posted some pretty stupid things in the past and that greatly discredits me. However, I have made many good points and I have always admited when I was wrong. I have rarely seen any athiest on this site say, "Hey thats a good point man" or "I really like you as a person". You talk about how religion creates strife and contention (which is correct), well then why are you guys doing the same thing? Have I ever resorted to childish name calling? No!

 

Before I get into too deep of a rant, I just want to say that I am cancelling my membership and will probally never coming back to this site again. I really enjoy, spirited debates but you have to have a good foundation of respect to get that. I see that there are only two types of response on this website; to correct people when they are wrong and to insult them when they are right. There is no true overal understanding here.

Please don't think that I am lumping everyone into the same boat. People like Susan, Brian and Kelly are very good in speaking in a respectful manner; the rest of you should really follow their examples. But as for the rest, I just don't see the point in trying to debate with people who are only going to resort to insults.

 

Any chance you may have had to "cure" me of my theism is completely lost due to the coldness of so many people on this site. If I wanted to talk with close-minded, hurtful people... I'd go to church but since I don't go to church I am just going to exit this website. Just don't think that I am leaving just because many people on here are well-read and intellegent people (in fact, thats why I came in the first place), I am leaving because I just don't want all these negative personalitys to rub off on me.

 

SORRY FOR THE LONG, DRAWN OUT, DRAMATIC EXIT, LOL... I JUST DIDN'T WANT YOU TO THINK THAT I AM LEAVING JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE WELL-READ AND INTELLEGENT AROUND HERE.

 

GOOD LUCK TO ALL OF YOU!!! MAY THE LORD LEAD YOU AND GUIDE YOU IN ALL THE PATHS OF LOVE, JUSTICE, HUMILTY AND GOODNESS; FOR IT IS THESE THINGS THAT HE DELIGHTS.

 

!!!PEACE BE WITH YOU!!!

 

Joseph Land

"Christians against Bush - END THE WAR IN IRAQ!!!"

 

 


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BenfromCanada

BenfromCanada wrote:
totus_tuus wrote:

22jesus22 wrote:
I would be careful about the Luke verse. I don't think Jesus is actually saying kill anyone who is not Christian, I think he is telling a story, and that is one of the lines another person says, I think it might be a ruler of somesort. Aren't the previous lines talking about money being given? I would ask Rook about that verse.

And right you are to be careful, 22. This verse comes at the end of the parable of the talents, and quotes a ruler who is speaking of sucts who rejected his rule. The king is judging rebels who denied his kingship, a parallel to the final judgement of men by Christ.

You are right. In context:

Luke 19:11-27(NIV)

The Parable of the Ten Minas
11While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas. 'Put this money to work,' he said, 'until I come back.'

14"But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, 'We don't want this man to be our king.'

15"He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.

16"The first one came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned ten more.'

17" 'Well done, my good servant!' his master replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.'

18"The second came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned five more.'

19"His master answered, 'You take charge of five cities.'

20"Then another servant came and said, 'Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.'

22"His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?'

24"Then he said to those standing by, 'Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.'

25" 'Sir,' they said, 'he already has ten!'

26"He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. 27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."

 

Of course, right after that, Jesus orders his disciples to steal a colt (in some translations a donkey) for him, which they do.

 

The Triumphal Entry
28After Jesus had said this, he went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem. 29As he approached Bethphage and Bethany at the hill called the Mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples, saying to them, 30"Go to the village ahead of you, and as you enter it, you will find a colt tied there, which no one has ever ridden. Untie it and bring it here. 31If anyone asks you, 'Why are you untying it?' tell him, 'The Lord needs it.' "

32Those who were sent ahead went and found it just as he had told them. 33As they were untying the colt, its owners asked them, "Why are you untying the colt?"

34They replied, "The Lord needs it."

35They brought it to Jesus, threw their cloaks on the colt and put Jesus on it.

 

So there was a decent character indictment of Jesus in that chapter, just not that verse.

EDIT: I'd also like some context on the one from the Qur'An. We don't want to use faulty arguments against them either.

 

It would be easy to assume that Jesus stole the colt, but one would have to ask:

1) did the disciples forcebly take the colt?

2) did the disciples take the colt without the owner's consent? 

3) did the owners already know Jesus and vice versa?

4) did Jesus after using the colt, return it to its owners?

     Last time i checked, a man is innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt.  Besides, logically speaking, there are just too many unanswered questions to conclusively say that Jesus DID steal that animal.


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curiousjorge050476

curiousjorge050476 wrote:
 

It would be easy to assume that Jesus stole the colt, but one would have to ask:

1) did the disciples forcebly take the colt?

2) did the disciples take the colt without the owner's consent?

3) did the owners already know Jesus and vice versa?

4) did Jesus after using the colt, return it to its owners?

Last time i checked, a man is innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. Besides, logically speaking, there are just too many unanswered questions to conclusively say that Jesus DID steal that animal.

1) No, but if they were armed, as they almost certainly were (as Jesus told them to buy swords) then they wouldn't need to use force.

2) Depends. One verse says yes, the other says no.

3) There's no indication of this. We're led to believe that he knows they have the colt through his Jesus magic.

4)  In one book, yes. In the other, no.


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BenfromCanada

BenfromCanada wrote:
curiousjorge050476 wrote:

It would be easy to assume that Jesus stole the colt, but one would have to ask:

1) did the disciples forcebly take the colt?

2) did the disciples take the colt without the owner's consent?

3) did the owners already know Jesus and vice versa?

4) did Jesus after using the colt, return it to its owners?

Last time i checked, a man is innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. Besides, logically speaking, there are just too many unanswered questions to conclusively say that Jesus DID steal that animal.

1) No, but if they were armed, as they almost certainly were (as Jesus told them to buy swords) then they wouldn't need to use force.

2) Depends. One verse says yes, the other says no.

3) There's no indication of this. We're led to believe that he knows they have the colt through his Jesus magic.

4) In one book, yes. In the other, no.

Thanks for your post BenfromCanada!  I actually found what i was looking for because of what you said.

In Mark 11:1-11, it showed Jesus telling the disciples to go to a village opposite them and get a colt and to inform the owners should they be there that He needed it, and would return it immediately. When someone asked them why they were taking the colt, they replied what Jesus had said and then they let the apostles go.

Please note that none of the other books contradict this.  It just doesn't mention some details found in this passage.  So in conclusion, Jesus merely borrowed the colt, the owners of which allowed Him to, and returned it immediately afterwards. 


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curiousjorge050476

curiousjorge050476 wrote:

Thanks for your post BenfromCanada! I actually found what i was looking for because of what you said.

In Mark 11:1-11, it showed Jesus telling the disciples to go to a village opposite them and get a colt and to inform the owners should they be there that He needed it, and would return it immediately. When someone asked them why they were taking the colt, they replied what Jesus had said and then they let the apostles go.

Please note that none of the other books contradict this. It just doesn't mention some details found in this passage. So in conclusion, Jesus merely borrowed the colt, the owners of which allowed Him to, and returned it immediately afterwards.

If it doesn't say that they did give it back, they didn't, according to that book. Remember, EACH of those books was meant to be the definitive book on this story. None were meant to be bundled with the others. There's no proof that any of these writers knew each other. There is, however, proof that they copied each other's work. Well, the work of the Markan author.